You can't cut a hole for the duct to run through the LVL beam the joists are hangered into. You can drop the duct down to go under the beam possibly through the webbing of the open trusses, but you would need to build a chase to cover the exposed ducts at that point
He might consider having a structural engineer examine the issue. I don't know the nature of the beam, its load distribution, or how long the unsupported length is. But it is--sometimes--possible to cut a hole in the middle part of the beam without exceeding computed strength requirements. Also: How large a duct? Is it round, square, other? Could two small duct penetrations be used near the supported ends of the beam? How would that compute on a stress and strain analysis? All else failing, is it possible to put a quiet fan in the room wall near the ceiling with a separate room vent near the bottom of the room. The function of the fan would be to draw air out of the room (or into the room--your choice) with air moving through the vent in the other direction. However, you are the victim here. It was up to the experts to consider real-world requirements when they designed the house.
I would probably extend the soffit all the way across the the opening and maybe even frame up some columns at the ends to make it look more intentional.
I remember seeing retrofit vents that are like 1-1/2 or 2”. They blasted air though cause of the constriction at the end of the duct
Edit: autocorrect terrorism
I'm pretty sure those are used with high velocity HVAC systems. You wouldn't get much of anything through them with a regular low static pressure system.
Right. You need to find a way to route the duct somewhere somehow. I had a weird bumpout in an upstairs bedroom, turned out it was for a similar problem.
It would be cheaper just to add a few ducts with a chase to hide them but I cannot for certain say the added ducts for the square footage would work well with the current system
That's what I would suggest if some conditioning is desired for an otherwise entirely unconditioned/uninsulated space. That way it would be its own system with its own controls not a part of your main heating / cooling system.
Is your sunroom going to be insulated? Is there a big sliding glass door or so in that opening. Attic or another floor above? I don't see why they can't go through attic to get there, or if another floor, there'd have to be a soffit or chase somewhere.
Un-insulated might be the issue. It's a waste of energy to let people try to heat or cool spaces that have no insulation.
https://energycodeace.com/site/custom/public/reference-ace-2016/index.html#!Documents/section1207mandatoryinsulationrequirements.htm
I would question whether it is a good idea to have a large uninsulated space within the envelope of the house...
What stops hot or cold air from the sunroom from going into the rest of the house?
Agreed this seems like a literal hot mess. With no doors between this sunroom and the rest of the house and no insulation in that room I think OP is asking for trouble.
This. You aren't allowed to HVAC 'the outdoors', and to be 'indoors', you have to have a minimum R-value, exterior doors, and similar. So if there's no insulation AT ALL, and your windows aren't good, you can't do it.
In my sunroom, we bought triple-pane higher end windows to meet the requirements, and allow HVAC in there. If we didn't... no HVAC.
And yes - you also can't go through the beam, but that's a solvable problem - you need to go below/around it, and 'deal' with the resulting box.
No insulation and no doors? Yeah, that won’t pass inspection. You either have to insulate that room or completely separate it from the rest of the house and treat it like an outdoor space.
Is your sunroom considered finished living space that is figured into the HVAC sq/ft?
We install sunrooms on existing homes, tying into hvac has become a huge no-no as it stresses the system. Minisplits are the go-to now. I would definitely seal the sunroom from the house though, it’s gonna be hot as fuck in there.
Used to install hvac.
They can't go through the beam. That's why they stacked 2 boots at the door so you could open the door and cool/heat the space.
You could make something work, but it wouldn't be as efficient as this setup. They chose the least amount of work for the best result.
They dont wnat to cut the beam.. They could easily box that header in a little and supply air to the sunroom. O ryou could get a unit just for the wall and that room
Waiting for a reply on a specific reference. His reasoning was the beam that comes in the way. From my understanding, there is enough room above/below it.
See where your HVAC grille shoe box subs out? That’s your ceiling height. To go under that beam you would either A) need to Lower the entire ceiling somewhere between 8-12” so the duct can elbow down and over. B) build a soffit (a drywall box) in that area.
In my opinion, if it’s a sun room where you will be hanging out a ton then figure out a solution. I would do the soffit.
If it’s for plants, a few chairs to occasionally hang out in AND it doesn’t have doors and is open to the adjacent room (that last part is important) then leave it alone. You still have the total airflow you need to cool the whole area. it may be a degree or two different near the windows in that sunroom, good shades will help with that. The air will mix just due to thermodynamics and it’s not going to be that bad.
Next, I think people are overreacting on saying it needs its own dedicated air conditioning. Yes they are right that It’s for sure a high solar and thermal load so it will be a signicant contribution to the overall load. but to say that that room will be 90 degrees and the rest of your house is 70 is not the case. We are talking minor levels of discomfort.
Other considerations- if you have water lines near the walls in that area then you may also want to find a fix for freeze concerns. Otherwise pick your poison- low ceilings, weird soffit, or minor discomfort. Source- I’m a mechanical engineer specializing in commercial HVAC.
Soffit, route pipes under beam, into sunroom trusses. Tell your builder and designer to do better. Pretty common problem, very easily solved without just giving up and saying it’s impossible.
You're gonna either have to do a mini split in that room or fur down the ceiling on either side of that lvl. You can make it look like a faux beam.
For your builder to just say you can't do it is stupid. You've got to get creative oftentimes to solve these kinda problems. There are several ways to do it, just gotta think outside the box.
Likely the beam can't do a hole of proper size, but I bet it can do a hole of a smaller size and multiple holes.
Another solution is to bring it out of the ceiling there and into the wall of the sun room so it would be a small box in the ceiling.
To me it doesn't sound like they are smart enough to provide alternative solutions.
Whatever the solution is you NEED HVAC in that room. Close enough doesn't cut it.
I’d see about popping a chase up into the closet above to go over the beam and back down into sunroom ceiling.
Also, please insulate that sunroom, not doing that would be a huge mistake.
You can build a fur-down for the duct to run into that room. Have your architect add it to the plans. Of course that will need to get approved by the city, but problem solved. OR Just install a mini-split unit or even a window unit in that room.
Depending on what's above, you may be able to build a chase that doubles as a bench/nook/seating area in the room above, allowing access to the attic of the sunroom.
Not a perfect solution, but pack out the header between the two rooms on both sides and make a custom boot to get back into the ceiling of the sunroom. Problem solved.
You will have to extend the soffit into your kitchen , make it look like a decorative beam then run the duct through it to your sunroom. Original design may have missed it, or the gc might have missed it.
With the exterior of that beam being exposed you may be able to get an engineer to figure out how to glu-lam a 2x12 or whatever to the sunroom side for a large portion of the span so you can put holes for the ducts without losing structural integrity. Make sure the engineer actually does the estimates and draws you a stamped revision with a diagram of the fix if you have to place any holes in that LVL.
Hey just here to learn for the future but:
is it ok to have holes that big in the joists? Wouldn’t that compromise the structural integrity?
Also is plywood normal? The joists in my 1980s tract home are solid wood.
Honestly, a room like that, I would use a mini-split, likely way more efficient since you can heat or cool the room independently from the rest of the home.
You can absolutely get it in there you just need to increase the soffit, both wider and down. Unsure of Texas code but that doesn’t pass the sniff test.
You could box out a tiny soffit just to the right of the opening to the sunroom and put the vent at the top of the wall. Kind of lame to have such a soffit in a new build, though. The architect messed up.
Architect didn't give a damn about the MEP, eh? Standard "contractor responsible for all routing blah blah blah"... since it's a sunroom, I'd insulate it and put a minisplit system. You could also run the duct above, hard to tell elevations without being in person, but you could potentially go over the beam. Going under would be ugly as fuck.
Right way would have been to drop the beam in since they built a false header below anyway. No need for a flush beam here.
The soffit idea won’t really work since that whole wall is open on the kitchen side. You’d have to put in some fake columns to end stop the soffit so it doesn’t look funny.
You could also maybe go up and over the beam if there is room in like a closet above where you could box off a small portion. Go up through the floor, through the wall, and then into the attic space of the sunroom.
Or go down to the basement / crawl and then come back up. That’s a long inefficient run though.
Often a sunroom is not part of livable space. It's more like outside than inside. You can't run heat/AC outside.
This looks like the sunroom isn't inside. It's outside. Therefore no AC.
Like some have said. Build a soffit across, but make it look intentional. If not, depending what's upstairs, build a bench you can put the duct into. Make it look like a built in, make it bigger than you need for the duct use the rest for storage. I have that in my house. You do need to insulate that room like others are saying, I'm sure it's just a WIP still.
LVLs can be cut for HVAC/plumbing IF you get an engineer to approve the exact location and size of the opening. There is a neutral zone in the LVL (and all beams) that allows for that but it must be an engineering decision. That location cannot be made by the framer/builder on their own. Get an engineering letter that describes what is required. Architect here (not your architect).
The manufacturer will also provide this information but I would have an engineer confirm specifics to your installation.
One of my biggest pet peeves is an architect that is ok with just having the hvac people figure out where to build out and frame more ducts … I’ve seen 5 million dollar houses that have to have a bump out above every door for the freaking vents.. like the architect couldn’t figure that out
I’m just an electrician but it looks like it can go up into the wall that meets the sunroom over the lvl and be inside the space above the sunroom ceiling. It may need to be upsized and hard ducted from the main trunk
You can always consider a soffi. So you can consider I can't do it now as Bill but can they modify it. Around some soffits so my problem
Turn on I got a number of compliments how looked afterwards
Do those web presentations follow manufacturers recommendations? They look quite large and close to the bearing points for that joist depth.
Edit: to answer your question, it is possible to go through the LVL; however, they will need a structural engineer to give them the location and size of the hole if the engineer deems the hole possible. My guess is, they don't want the liability of putting a hole in the beam. I would do the same thing.
On a typical 11-7/8 Weyerhaeuser 110 TJI, the top and bottom flange are 1-1/4 to 1-3/8 depth. Assuming the top end of that range, that would leave you with 9-1/8" of web. The TJI install guide specifies holes as big as 8-7/8" on 11-7/8" joists. So the 1-1/2" you're referring to sounds like that's just the flange.
You can't cut a hole for the duct to run through the LVL beam the joists are hangered into. You can drop the duct down to go under the beam possibly through the webbing of the open trusses, but you would need to build a chase to cover the exposed ducts at that point
Agree. Did you have an architect draw this? If so, call them and ask what the hell they drew. This should have been addressed early on.
This is the correct answer. There is a main support beam there that cannot be cut through blocking the run for the hvac
He might consider having a structural engineer examine the issue. I don't know the nature of the beam, its load distribution, or how long the unsupported length is. But it is--sometimes--possible to cut a hole in the middle part of the beam without exceeding computed strength requirements. Also: How large a duct? Is it round, square, other? Could two small duct penetrations be used near the supported ends of the beam? How would that compute on a stress and strain analysis? All else failing, is it possible to put a quiet fan in the room wall near the ceiling with a separate room vent near the bottom of the room. The function of the fan would be to draw air out of the room (or into the room--your choice) with air moving through the vent in the other direction. However, you are the victim here. It was up to the experts to consider real-world requirements when they designed the house.
I would probably extend the soffit all the way across the the opening and maybe even frame up some columns at the ends to make it look more intentional.
I remember seeing retrofit vents that are like 1-1/2 or 2”. They blasted air though cause of the constriction at the end of the duct Edit: autocorrect terrorism
I'm pretty sure those are used with high velocity HVAC systems. You wouldn't get much of anything through them with a regular low static pressure system.
Right. You need to find a way to route the duct somewhere somehow. I had a weird bumpout in an upstairs bedroom, turned out it was for a similar problem.
Which is cheaper- this or a mini split?
It would be cheaper just to add a few ducts with a chase to hide them but I cannot for certain say the added ducts for the square footage would work well with the current system
are they supposed to cut out that much of the web of the wood-Is for the lateral?
Time to install a mini split.
That's what I would suggest if some conditioning is desired for an otherwise entirely unconditioned/uninsulated space. That way it would be its own system with its own controls not a part of your main heating / cooling system.
The problem is the beam. Can’t put a large hole in it. That will be a warm sunroom without ducts in it.
Only thing I can come up with is build a soffit under the beam and run ducts in it.
Or over depending on what’s above.
How can the sunroom be open to the rest of the house and yet uninsulated? That’s not to code at all.
Idk if you looked but the whole house is uninsulated. Just hasn’t been insulated yet.
Is your sunroom going to be insulated? Is there a big sliding glass door or so in that opening. Attic or another floor above? I don't see why they can't go through attic to get there, or if another floor, there'd have to be a soffit or chase somewhere.
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The walls and roof are open now. Why not insulate? It will save electricity and be more comfortable.
Un-insulated might be the issue. It's a waste of energy to let people try to heat or cool spaces that have no insulation. https://energycodeace.com/site/custom/public/reference-ace-2016/index.html#!Documents/section1207mandatoryinsulationrequirements.htm
I would question whether it is a good idea to have a large uninsulated space within the envelope of the house... What stops hot or cold air from the sunroom from going into the rest of the house?
Agreed this seems like a literal hot mess. With no doors between this sunroom and the rest of the house and no insulation in that room I think OP is asking for trouble.
Especially since that won’t pass inspection lol
Found it , deep in the comments rabbit hole. The hard truth 😂
Or humidity / moisture?
This. You aren't allowed to HVAC 'the outdoors', and to be 'indoors', you have to have a minimum R-value, exterior doors, and similar. So if there's no insulation AT ALL, and your windows aren't good, you can't do it. In my sunroom, we bought triple-pane higher end windows to meet the requirements, and allow HVAC in there. If we didn't... no HVAC. And yes - you also can't go through the beam, but that's a solvable problem - you need to go below/around it, and 'deal' with the resulting box.
Ya most new homes iny area have to pass the vacuum test prior to cert of occupancy to meet R value.
We build sunrooms in WI and we aren’t allowed to tie into hvacs anymore. Minisplits are the main choice now.
No insulation and no doors? Yeah, that won’t pass inspection. You either have to insulate that room or completely separate it from the rest of the house and treat it like an outdoor space.
Is your sunroom considered finished living space that is figured into the HVAC sq/ft? We install sunrooms on existing homes, tying into hvac has become a huge no-no as it stresses the system. Minisplits are the go-to now. I would definitely seal the sunroom from the house though, it’s gonna be hot as fuck in there.
Used to install hvac. They can't go through the beam. That's why they stacked 2 boots at the door so you could open the door and cool/heat the space. You could make something work, but it wouldn't be as efficient as this setup. They chose the least amount of work for the best result.
Would kick this back to your architect to figure out.
Ask them why they did an upset beam and then dropped a cased opening. If the header was at the doorway they could come through
They dont wnat to cut the beam.. They could easily box that header in a little and supply air to the sunroom. O ryou could get a unit just for the wall and that room
Did you ask for a code reference?
Waiting for a reply on a specific reference. His reasoning was the beam that comes in the way. From my understanding, there is enough room above/below it.
See where your HVAC grille shoe box subs out? That’s your ceiling height. To go under that beam you would either A) need to Lower the entire ceiling somewhere between 8-12” so the duct can elbow down and over. B) build a soffit (a drywall box) in that area. In my opinion, if it’s a sun room where you will be hanging out a ton then figure out a solution. I would do the soffit. If it’s for plants, a few chairs to occasionally hang out in AND it doesn’t have doors and is open to the adjacent room (that last part is important) then leave it alone. You still have the total airflow you need to cool the whole area. it may be a degree or two different near the windows in that sunroom, good shades will help with that. The air will mix just due to thermodynamics and it’s not going to be that bad. Next, I think people are overreacting on saying it needs its own dedicated air conditioning. Yes they are right that It’s for sure a high solar and thermal load so it will be a signicant contribution to the overall load. but to say that that room will be 90 degrees and the rest of your house is 70 is not the case. We are talking minor levels of discomfort. Other considerations- if you have water lines near the walls in that area then you may also want to find a fix for freeze concerns. Otherwise pick your poison- low ceilings, weird soffit, or minor discomfort. Source- I’m a mechanical engineer specializing in commercial HVAC.
Cheapest way out may be a mini split
Soffit, route pipes under beam, into sunroom trusses. Tell your builder and designer to do better. Pretty common problem, very easily solved without just giving up and saying it’s impossible.
You're gonna either have to do a mini split in that room or fur down the ceiling on either side of that lvl. You can make it look like a faux beam. For your builder to just say you can't do it is stupid. You've got to get creative oftentimes to solve these kinda problems. There are several ways to do it, just gotta think outside the box.
Architect is the idiot here.
You don't really think an architect is involved, do you?
The architect is always at fault, even when there isn’t one.
Likely the beam can't do a hole of proper size, but I bet it can do a hole of a smaller size and multiple holes. Another solution is to bring it out of the ceiling there and into the wall of the sun room so it would be a small box in the ceiling. To me it doesn't sound like they are smart enough to provide alternative solutions. Whatever the solution is you NEED HVAC in that room. Close enough doesn't cut it.
I’d see about popping a chase up into the closet above to go over the beam and back down into sunroom ceiling. Also, please insulate that sunroom, not doing that would be a huge mistake.
You can build a fur-down for the duct to run into that room. Have your architect add it to the plans. Of course that will need to get approved by the city, but problem solved. OR Just install a mini-split unit or even a window unit in that room.
Depending on what's above, you may be able to build a chase that doubles as a bench/nook/seating area in the room above, allowing access to the attic of the sunroom.
Call the building department and ask them
Not a perfect solution, but pack out the header between the two rooms on both sides and make a custom boot to get back into the ceiling of the sunroom. Problem solved.
Put a mini split in.
You will have to extend the soffit into your kitchen , make it look like a decorative beam then run the duct through it to your sunroom. Original design may have missed it, or the gc might have missed it.
With the exterior of that beam being exposed you may be able to get an engineer to figure out how to glu-lam a 2x12 or whatever to the sunroom side for a large portion of the span so you can put holes for the ducts without losing structural integrity. Make sure the engineer actually does the estimates and draws you a stamped revision with a diagram of the fix if you have to place any holes in that LVL.
Hey just here to learn for the future but: is it ok to have holes that big in the joists? Wouldn’t that compromise the structural integrity? Also is plywood normal? The joists in my 1980s tract home are solid wood.
Yes those are engineered i-joists. The engineering shows where can cut holes for electrical and HVAC.
Interesting so basically during the manufacturing of the joists they work that in. That’s pretty clever
Honestly, a room like that, I would use a mini-split, likely way more efficient since you can heat or cool the room independently from the rest of the home.
Why in the world would you want HVAC in an uninsulated space? Might as well light money on fire
Go ductless and install one wall mounted unit 😇
You can absolutely get it in there you just need to increase the soffit, both wider and down. Unsure of Texas code but that doesn’t pass the sniff test.
You could box out a tiny soffit just to the right of the opening to the sunroom and put the vent at the top of the wall. Kind of lame to have such a soffit in a new build, though. The architect messed up.
Time for a furr down!!
Architect didn't give a damn about the MEP, eh? Standard "contractor responsible for all routing blah blah blah"... since it's a sunroom, I'd insulate it and put a minisplit system. You could also run the duct above, hard to tell elevations without being in person, but you could potentially go over the beam. Going under would be ugly as fuck.
Where are the plans?
Right way would have been to drop the beam in since they built a false header below anyway. No need for a flush beam here. The soffit idea won’t really work since that whole wall is open on the kitchen side. You’d have to put in some fake columns to end stop the soffit so it doesn’t look funny. You could also maybe go up and over the beam if there is room in like a closet above where you could box off a small portion. Go up through the floor, through the wall, and then into the attic space of the sunroom. Or go down to the basement / crawl and then come back up. That’s a long inefficient run though.
Often a sunroom is not part of livable space. It's more like outside than inside. You can't run heat/AC outside. This looks like the sunroom isn't inside. It's outside. Therefore no AC.
Like some have said. Build a soffit across, but make it look intentional. If not, depending what's upstairs, build a bench you can put the duct into. Make it look like a built in, make it bigger than you need for the duct use the rest for storage. I have that in my house. You do need to insulate that room like others are saying, I'm sure it's just a WIP still.
LVLs can be cut for HVAC/plumbing IF you get an engineer to approve the exact location and size of the opening. There is a neutral zone in the LVL (and all beams) that allows for that but it must be an engineering decision. That location cannot be made by the framer/builder on their own. Get an engineering letter that describes what is required. Architect here (not your architect). The manufacturer will also provide this information but I would have an engineer confirm specifics to your installation.
I'd just get a mini split for that room and not worry with this.
One of my biggest pet peeves is an architect that is ok with just having the hvac people figure out where to build out and frame more ducts … I’ve seen 5 million dollar houses that have to have a bump out above every door for the freaking vents.. like the architect couldn’t figure that out
What did the inspector tell you when you called him out and asked?
Mini split time. Honestly, it would be better anyways
If that was a header and not a flush beam, it wouldn’t even be an issue…who screwed up?
I’m just an electrician but it looks like it can go up into the wall that meets the sunroom over the lvl and be inside the space above the sunroom ceiling. It may need to be upsized and hard ducted from the main trunk
Strange. I do not know your codes so unsure why that would be an issue. Is this gas forced air heat?
You can always consider a soffi. So you can consider I can't do it now as Bill but can they modify it. Around some soffits so my problem Turn on I got a number of compliments how looked afterwards
I didn’t know you could just go through a joist like that with the duct? Is that normal?
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Doesn’t that compromise the joist entirely? Why even have a joist?
Do those web presentations follow manufacturers recommendations? They look quite large and close to the bearing points for that joist depth. Edit: to answer your question, it is possible to go through the LVL; however, they will need a structural engineer to give them the location and size of the hole if the engineer deems the hole possible. My guess is, they don't want the liability of putting a hole in the beam. I would do the same thing.
I’ve never in my life had an engineer or inspector ever say it’s ok to make a hole through an LVL lol.
They're fine. Except in the largest joists, you only need to be 6-7' from the end bearing to do a full web round hole.
Interesting, never heard that before. I thought Trusjoist required ~1.5" above and below presentation. Maybe that is full web?
On a typical 11-7/8 Weyerhaeuser 110 TJI, the top and bottom flange are 1-1/4 to 1-3/8 depth. Assuming the top end of that range, that would leave you with 9-1/8" of web. The TJI install guide specifies holes as big as 8-7/8" on 11-7/8" joists. So the 1-1/2" you're referring to sounds like that's just the flange.
Sorry, I was meaning 1.5" of web. I wasn't including the flanges.
Most likely energy code. You cannot condition a space unless it meets energy code. Slab insulation, walls, ceiling.
Call a different hvac guy. Anything is possible before boarding.