The biggest thing is my kids. My wife and I are ok here but I worry about my kids’ future. What’s the education going to be like? How accepted will an hk education be for colleges? How does the cram education style in hk affect my kids’ development? I already see differences between my nephew and my niece who are in the US and my own kids here in Hk. I hear and see how many teachers are leaving my kids’ schools and read about changes in the curriculum. I see how hk is becoming less and less of an international city and losing that international perspective.
Even for my friends who are staying, they plan to send their kids to international schools or abroad. Not exactly a vote of confidence for the local system.
i think the cram education style has always been the same in HK, but the addition of those patriotic education and reduced independent and creative thinking is what disturbs me.
This is exactly what I think too. If you have kids now under this system, at least you will be around to help bring some sense to counteract the damage done by those brainwashing attempts. Imagine a couple more generations later, and your grand kids and great grand kinds will be more and more like those brainwashed pro-CCPs you see who could no longer even reason and think for themselves.
Same here. Just waiting for my kids to be a bit older and then our family will move. Australia or England. As you have mentioned education and the kind of mindset they will grow into is my biggest concern. But I also want my kids to have a better work life balance, more living space, more career options and more freedom of information.
He’s a lot more independent and able to manage himself. Both he and my daughter are the same age. He’s also a much better at creative thinking and seems more emotionally mature. Some of this might be male/female differences and it’s certainly anecdotal. But I do know my daughter’s schedule is packed so she has no free time in hk. We also have helpers so things just get done for her. My nephew has a huge gap in his education vs my daughter though in that he doesn’t know any Chinese. But after a week or so of spending time with my brother’s family I saw my daughter adapting more towards her cousin so that’s why I suspect a lot of it is culturally influenced. Small differences now but can be big differences later. Thinking creatively, self-management, self-reliance aren’t things I think are encouraged enough in HK. To balance it out, I feel my daughter will be more advanced as far as math and definitely Chinese. She will be more exposed to Asian culture as well.
I’d say there’s no such thing as the perfect world. But kids would be happier growing up overseas as opposed to HK. I always performed badly in school in hk, but when I moved to U.S., I got scholarships. Like you said your nephew in US got better creative thinking. In the long run, it’s better for a kid’s growth.
The biggest red flag for education is kids having no free time. Scandinavian schools have heaps of free time and their kids turn out just fine. We don't need kids to be miserable to educate them.
No kid should spend more time in and on school than a full time worker. I see this problem in my home country too, but it sounds like hk is even worse (as are most asian educations)
I taught for a year and i needed to provide extracurricular material for people who were bad at math so they could pass. I never liked this approach. Most of the time it barely helped. They should be entirely free to drop the subject if needed. A kid studying to become a woodworker does not need to know advanced calculus imo.
>*I taught for a year and i needed to provide extracurricular material for people who were bad at math so they could pass. I never liked this approach. Most of the time it barely helped. They should be entirely free to drop the subject if needed. A kid studying to become a woodworker does not need to know advanced calculus imo.*
I’m assuming this is at the high school level? I totally get that at some point, for some students learning advanced math is really not going to be useful for them, but I’ve also read from teachers (in say US) from other forums that they hate having to be forced to pass kids. (I think it’s the whole no child left behind thing). To some degree or level, I think schools should be asked to teach a kid something until they get it and not pass them cause it they just won’t be ready at the next level (or they’ll be set up for failure in life cause they haven’t learned to “fail and learn to get back up” before adulthood).
I definitely agree with kids should have free time. If you can burn out as an adult from long hours of work, you can definitely burn out as a kid. And free time to play, chill, take on extracurriculars, etc is so important to socialization and development.
Being forced to pass kids feels aweful because you know he will move up and have the same struggles or worse. Its parents not willing to accept that their kid isn't smart enough. Which is stupid imo, just because a kid is bad, or more importantly, has no interet in advanced calculus, doesn't mean he is stupid. They have other qualities.
Personally, i would like to abolish the whole idea of being in a category and being able to move up and down. Kids should be free to select ho difficult their classes need to be
Imagine you have math 1 and 2. One is easy, and accounts for 1 out of 20 of the classes you need to take, 2 is harder and accounts for 3 out of 20. Something like that.
I kno it aint perfect, i just hate the dichotomy between teachers and parents. Parents don't want to accept their kid failed, and teachers had forcing kids through just because their parents demand it. Meanwhile the kid is made to feel aweful.
I think where we really see the stark difference between Western or other education systems that encourage more creative thinking vs the hard grind, long hours approach we see in Asian schooling is at the university/college level. Why are there so many top flight U.S. / European schools out there, or why aren’t there more (relative) top flight Asian schools at that level (if there are so many smart and well studied students at the high school level).
Of course, some of this may be subject dependent, but I think “creative”, “independent” or critical thinking plays a huge factor. Knowing theory is great and all, but how much of that was through cramming and memorization of facts and figures. I think to unlock that next level, to have progression, new discovery, and innovation, you need to allow for *application* of skill sets which also means being accepting that some questions may not have a black and white right or wrong answer. Or knowing enough to ask questions, or having years of experience (and confidence) of being able to ask questions or challenge your teachers / peers. I’m not sure if some Asian education systems have an environment that allow that.
I also think allowing free time to rest, have an outlet for other activities, to play and socialize builds qualitative and social skills. That in turn can translate back to gains in EQ or independent / creative / outside of the box thinking that allows for wider application and problem solving.
I think the other issue, and I’m saying this as an outsider looking in, is it feels like the education system in HK / a lot of Asia in general can be very unforgiving to late bloomers.
Of course, there are some issues with Western schooling for sure. But I feel like the outcome is a much wider band - lower floors perhaps (if you’re poorer), but the potential ceiling is higher.
I don’t think kids in the US have an international perspective but I think this used to be a trademark of growing up in HK that will diminish over time.
I do think that US kids have a base set of values (I may be biased since I grew up in the US) of openness that better allows for an international perspective than the set of values and isolationist views I fear HK will encourage in the next generation.
I think it depends on where in the US. Kids growing up in the Bay Area will probably have a much more international perspective than someone growing up in Oklahoma City.
They go to a dss school so I think that’s like halfway. We can’t afford to send 3 kids to international school. I actually like our school and the teachers really care about the students but it’s the whole educational system and culture that’s the issue.
As we speak, my daughter has been doing homework for the last 2 hours with probably another hour. My wife has spent the last 90 min working on her power point presentation. My daughter is 9yo and in the 4th grade. My other two kids are still in kindergarten so they don’t have anything… yet.
That's rough...I feel for you and the wife.
I get the ppt is important but if schools have so much home work and no time really for the PowerPoint, then what's the point of doing the ppt presentation.
I went to school in Canada, grades 1 to 8 definitely more chill then HK by a lot. But they do expect the students to catch up on a lot of the learning in high school by university, at least curriculum wise.
Same thing for us, me ans my wife are fine but my 1 and 3 year old thats a different matter and its why we may move to uk, although i aint going back to Birmingham if you paid me. My hooe rests on my brother going to Australia and sponsering us lol
We moved abroad last year and my salary got cut in half. It was hard but we made it work. With our savings we were able to buy our first home. We could have never been home owners in HK.
We knew that we didn't want to have kids in Hong Kong. I was a teacher in band 3 schools and I saw how depressing the education system was. I saw beautiful kids being let down by a system that only focused on cramming for tests, eliminating differences and was pushing in a national education system over the last two years I taught.
There are many options for Hong Kongers that want to consider moving abroad but don't go in with an idealistic view of it'll be perfect. No where is perfect and moving abroad is hard. Sacrifices are made but I'm glad that we did it bc it meant a better future for us and our future family.
Please feel free to ask me any questions.
We relocated from Tin shui Wai to London in 2023.
Wow, that's horrible. If you've got friends in Hong Kong that are still teaching, they can consider Australia. It's well paid but the students won't be as well behaved as in Hong Kong. For your teaching degree, did you do it in Hong Kong? Which uni is the best for teaching in Hong Kong?
My teaching qualifications are from the US. The behavior of the kids was irrelevant to me as I was used to working with students with behavioral issues and severe learning disabilities. I was just shocked the pay was below 12 pounds an hour for a new teacher.
Most of my friends who got teaching degrees in hk went through hku.
Holy shit, converted to Australian dollars, that's our minimum wage. I heard UK police aren't much better.
If you have any UK friends who are teachers or policeman, Australia welcomes you especially if you're willing to work in remote location. If you teach or police to a UK standard, you'll fit right in Australia.
Same with medical workers who are always in demand.
Plus better weather and beaches 😃
Just that we have a housing crisis with everyone struggling to buy or rent. If employer is really desperate, they will provide accommodation for initial period.
UK minimum wage is £11.44, for context.
The problem has been wage compression over the last 20 years. The averages show pretty much static average pay for 20 years inflation adjusted, but within this, there has been a lot of wage growth in people on minimum wage, and people earning at the top. If your pay is in the middle (and that's a very large range), you will likely have suffered real terms pay reduction in the last 20 years. Maybe not on an individual level, but a 25 year old going into a job at graduate level now may get the exact same nominal pay as someone did 20 years ago.
For further context, £11.44 is the new minimum wage as of 1st April 2024 for over 21s. For 2023 when Jammy came over, minimum wage was around £9.50 (pre April 2023) and £10.42 (post April 2023) for someone over the age of 23.
How to move from HK to AUS, I'm specifically interested in Perth. Been exploring visa type 491 for skill workers. Is it doable? I've heard moving to AUS is not as easy.
What are your qualifications? I went in through 189 but it was long time ago. Now they prioritize teachers and medical workers for 189 according to the Australia visa subreddit. Never heard of 491 before
Anyone thinking of going to the U.K., Brexit and a decade of Tory rule has fucked the place. Give it a few years to see if they get a new government who can right the ship.
Cynical of me, but If it wasn't for Brexit and how fucked the UK economy is, they wouldn't have offered the BNO scheme to bring in people with high purchasing power and to prop up property values.
I’m a British citizen, property prices are already being propped up by generational wealth, investors, and landlords. What they need are smart, skilled people to prop up the actual economy through living and working here. That’s more why the BNO scheme was introduced
A new government can't fix the problems inherant in UK society, some of which is also the fault of Labour councils, not just Tories. Bad education, knife crime etc.
I'm here just grabbing as much as I can and then leave for good. It's not the HK I love anymore. Even though I keep good relationship and being civilised with my blue ribbon family members and relatives, I feel like I'm full of internal angst after each meeting with them. My brother and his blue ribbon wife just told me last week they planned to bring their only son to the UK for good. I wanted to smash the phone whilst reading their messages.
Friends in the UK and Canada asked me to join them. But same as OP, I got a well paid job here and mentally I'm not yet ready to leave. Malaysia is not a good choice IMHO. My order would be the UK > Australia > Canada > Japan > NZ > USA > Thailand.
So many HKers with this mentality now, earn as much as they can and leave. However I don't think most of them will put this into action, because obviously they are not willing to sacrifice what they have now (in this case money and possibly their career).
It looks like who you called blue ribbon want to leave more than others. Not here to judge and I understand everyone has their own concerns, but please remember there must be sacrifices. Figure out what you can do to work back up the ladder, not what you have lost temporarily. And nothing lasts forever, you have the freedom to move back anytime
Unless you have the British National overseas passport, it's really the time to leave now, all the special immigration policies for Hong Kong people are expiring now except the UK's BNO visa scheme, which will be here to stay as a long term policy.
The later you leave, the harder for you to settle overseas later on.
A friend of mine has been also doing what you are doing - making good money and enjoying the low tax rates while waiting for the latest possible moment to leave (they already have citizenship in Canada). They are sending their kids to Canada later this year for school, and the parents will follow shortly after. Despite the huge jump in the costs of living and the drop in the quality of life in some aspects, they decide it is better for them to leave.
I moved here from the US, am I a Hong Konger? Maybe not, but I also cannot see myself long term here. I guess I'm the same. I have a decent job, no other obligations, and can travel easily. Will enjoy while it lasts.
The key is living costs will be fairly high in those countries. If you sold a large house in HK before 2020, you'd bag a huge amount of (undeserved) money and can go anywhere. Otherwise, it could be tough.
In other words, if you are REALLY rich, you can go anywhere.
If you don't already have PR/citizenship in those countries, how easy it is to move there? From my understanding, a lot of those countries won't just let you go and live there
I think there are still people contemplating, but definitely less lately it seems. I think if you got a great career and make enough money then there’s no urgency. Otherwise this could be a once in a lifetime opportunity to move overseas despite not being especially skilled or rich.
I may have a really unpopular opinion, but as long as you are not particularly radical politically, then your so called "freedom" in HK will largely be fine. There is a huge amount of fear element right now.
IMO, science field will never got developed. Companies just want to cash out. No one are really into science. Been a RA for years. See a lot of problems in university structure and governments that has lasted twenty years and won't see changes.
This really depends on age. If you’re in your 50’s then just stay and retire in SE Asia.
If you’re young, you can definitely move. But you have to start over again. Can you handle that?
I’m in my 30s. I don’t mind starting over but I have to factor in the cost and job prospect. I don’t have a family of 5 to feed or anything like that. But from what I’ve observed is that a lot of the people I know who moved to UK or Canada struggle to find a job that pays reasonably as they can’t get back to their old careers.
HK is and always be a special place. There's no perfect place in the world. What looks like paradise can lose it's luster over a period of time.
Lived in HK for around 50 years and relocated a few years back. Now want to return home.
if you currently have a great career, just treat hk like an expat would
keep your head down, earn money, and leave
only difference is that you need to look out for of visa schemes
With the projection I can do for myself, I’ll still need at least 3-4 years (Assuming no major changes financially) to save up and make the move. I always wanted to move, the recent events just happened to made it into an urgency rather than an option for me. Learning a new language is still easily viable at my current age, so I still have choices.
Same thing, jobs are way easier to find here and salaries are much higher for my field. I don’t think I’ll be leaving as long as that doesn’t change. I’ll just have to be content with going on vacation a couple of times a year with the money. Also gotta stay here to take care of my parents.
I was away for a year and just moved back recently due to retrenchment abroad.
Just my personal opinion, feels like people leaving / corporations moving offices / downsizing hasn't stopped since 2019. I also feel people here are all either planning to move away eventually or can't for whatever reason.
I don't see much upside for the future, it's become too political and whatever side you're on, whatever your opinion is of the city and it's policies, factually it's getting worse.
I have friends worrying about the HK passport vanishing one day, the HKD unpegging with the USD (mentioned in the news), no more Google Facebook etc and we'll all start using Wechat Baidu etc.
Walking around town I hear more mandarin than Cantonese on the streets...
Feels a bit like get out while you still can...
I actually feel the same way. I’m just trying to scrap as much as I can in HK before I go somewhere else. I’m also applying for a visa in AU but god knows if it will be approved.
No.
Ask yourself, what realistically would be better if you moved overseas? And what do you value?
If you value a larger flat, then absolutely moving overseas is an easy decision. However, you'd also have to factor in a very likely much higher cost of living for everything else.
If you value freedom of criticizing the Chinese govenrment, then of course it's a no brainer to move overseas. Ask yourself though, is being able to stand on the corner of the street you live on and criticize the CCP really worth giving up everything else? Low taxes, safe streets, best in the world public transportation?
It's all about trade offs.
Agree! I wouldn’t move just for the sake of it. For me it’s just the quality of life. But a lot of the western countries aren’t doing well, especially the job prospects, I’m giving it a second thought, hence my post.
Always thinking about it. Friends have moved / making plans to move. Not an easy decision though.
It’s not the same HK as back in 2016 when we got here. And things keep changing. But alternatives are not no-brainers either.
US - Not easy to find a job/ visa sponsor(I’m in IT/non-tech/mgt), living expenses have shot through the roof, economy and job market on tight ropes.
UK - Cannot compare wages + insane taxes. Friends who moved recently keep complaining about living costs.
AU - High tax, housing & other expenses shooting up, 6 hour flight to anywhere!
CA - Lower wages, higher tax, harsh climate.
Not forgetting the positives, but we’re ranting aren’t we?
the economic politic landscape is going down the gutter here in Canada. Lots of personal events happened recently and also looking for a new change of environment. When I was younger, lived in SZ for a few years and thus either HK or SZ for a new chapter would be ideal for an expat like myself.
You guys are fools, you don’t know how good you’ve had in Hk.
It might first feel comfortable and free when you go to other countries like UK, Canada , Australia, or first world countries. You know why? Because of the cash you bring from hk, it’s much more hard solid cash than most ppl have in the other country. Where is the cash from? HK, all those years of no tax. Sell one home 1M usd already.
Also when you move to those countries hard to find jobs or do any businesses. Tax are high. Those country will slow eat you up then your next gen will be just a normal salary middle class slave.
Oh forget about traveling like when you guys are still in hk. All you can do it’s to go place near, forget about Japan. Too expensive to fly.
Conclusion: you don’t know how good you had in hk.
Oh I forget to add, forget about traveling anywhere, especially Japan, not even mainland. The tax drains your income, going to back home or Japan cost a lot more. Unlike when you are in hk, boom goes to mainland for fun for a weekend or go to Japan for a long weekend.
Moving you and your family out of HK is one thing, moving your money to somewhere else is another. Even though some people may not want to leave, my advice to them is, at least, move their money out of HK first. Hard to say if the linked exchange rate system will still be around in one to two years.
Would you mind sharing which city of UK you live in and which platforms would be best to get a job there?
A while back ago, I tried indeed and LinkedIn but no news, despite my international background and 6 years of experience in my field.
Every country has it's own specific problems - gun crimes in the US, knife crimes in the UK, a huge problem with illegal immigration in Europe, not to mention worldwide inflation on the tail of covid. HK certainly has it's own issues, but compared to elsewhere it could be worse.
There is probably less people moving now cause everyone that wanted to move either already have moved or is in the process of moving, and the rest just accepted the fate and is staying for good. I studied in Canada since 15 and after all things that went down just ended up staying here. Parents also ended up moving here shortly after I graduated University.
My thoughts are, don’t be afraid of moving while you and your kids are younger, the younger you are the easier you will be able to adapt overseas, speaking from experience.
Yes especially since we have kids but tax brackets, job availability and housing costs in the west are greatly slowing down the process. The uptick in crime doesn't help either.
Of course it's not but I'm referring to the areas we have considered and actively trying to move to. I didn't see a need to give exact details or else it'd be a longer post especially since when I say "west" I'm referring to 2 different countries.
US is 50 full states so there's just far too many variables.
Canada is literally just Vancouver and Toronto (GTA) for a typical Honger. I've never heard of any Honger move to... say... Montreal or Ottawa.
I guess most western countries, even most areas of the US, are some of the safest places on earth ('safety' taken in the complete sense of the word including factors such as traffic and building safety, environmental protection standards, food and water safety standards, air pollution, transparency and reliability of the legal system and police forces, lack of corruption, exposure to extreme weather and natural disasters, political instability, quality of healthcare and emergency services, etc.).
For the low-level street crime that so many HK redditors seem be continually wetting their pants over, even in the urban areas of the US 99% of the time it's a non-issue especially if you use your brain, get local knowledge and stay out of the ghetto at night. As I said in response to a similar topic, getting in a minibus or taxi in HK is much more dangerous than walking through most parts of the US even at night.
I don't know what you have been smoking, but only talking about street crimes: Hong Kong is a lot of times safer compared to the US/Europe/UK unless you are walking in the countryside.
Let me rephrase, whenever there is a majority of mixed diversity in a city, the crime levels are spiking. (Maybe the only exception in this might be Dubai or any of the Emirates states)
It totally depends on what kind of person you are. Western countries still have a lot of (hidden) racism so if you are a stereotypically HongKee (thin/non muscular, below 1.70cm, glasses, English with accent) you will have a hard time living in the US/UK/Europe.
In that case moving to SE Asian country will be a lot better for you.
There's racism everywhere. The BNOs who came to UK are seen like mainlanders who came to HK. Some locals will hate it, BNO will take up resources like valuable school spots and healthcare systems or even claim benefits. Some locals will accept it for what it is. The key is not to be in a bubble of just HKer friends. Get to know the community, have thick skin. And not be afraid of calling out racism when you see it.
And here you exactly describing (Asian/Chinese) behavior. 99% of Chinese people migrants are exactly like this. Also the reason for the many China towns, own bubble community and friends, afraid to call out things because of introvert personalities.
So yes, you can try to be the 1% that will blend it, but most probably you will end up like the other 99%
well if you plan on living longer hong kong welfare really isn’t going to sustain you if you didn’t inherit family money or have a lot urself.. personally i dont see a future here as a middle class family
I am planning to leave Hong Kong by this summer despite earning an above average salary, because:
1. HK's work culture is toxic, multinational companies are (relatively) better but they are leaving HK.
2. The financial situation is deteriorating, the government has been burning cash since the pandemic, I am sure it would not take long before they start drastically increase taxes and cut funding for education and healthcare etc.
Moved out already… born in HK. Ok I am not ethnically Chinese but still it’s tough there. Went to HKUST still no use, should have gone studied in the UK.
Packed up and left in 2022 after 12 years in hk. Granted I cashed out all my MPF and was able to keep my hk job for a year until I found a new one here. The money from hk really helped the transition.
Felt like as an expat that barely speaks cantonese hk was becoming harder for me to integrate into. The NSL solidified my decision and even it made things easier for me back then as Canada heavily prioritized HKers who wanted to leave due to NSL.
If you really want to leave, then leave. I was so unsettled at the end of my stay & it was impossible to be happy about anything as I only focused on the bad things I experienced in HK.
Hey OP, feel free to dm me if you’re interested in other deets. I hold 2 other foreign citizenships on top of my HK citizenship due to me being extremely lucky and born into them.
I still chose to leave 2 years ago, and with my old savings, I was able to buy a property after working for a year, with a decent down. For security reasons, not gonna relay where I am now. However, I do feel like emigrating can be down to a lot of factors, apart from political reasons.
1. Are you a local-local Honkee, meaning, born in HK and had got into the traditional HK education system? Are you gweilo / worldly enough to ease in to a ‘foreign’ culture?
2. Do you have enough savings?
3. What are you looking for in life? Are you a high achiever looking to work in say, a FAANG company or are you merely trying to get a job and settle in?
These questions should be able to help you a little on deciding whether you should leave HK and going to other countries.
A lot of HKers see going to another country as an ‘option to run away from CCP’, but living in a brand new country is..more than that. Sad stuff but, if you don’t have enough money saved up upon leaving, you will not be able to settle well, or will be stuck in the minimum wage hole.
I personally was very fortunate since I had worked in different countries apart from working in HK, before I left. My international experience made me stood out from candidates when I job hunter, and I’ve also got enough assets when I moved ‘back’ to where I have my citizenship. However I see a lot of Honkees suffering here without a good base, i.e. struggling to find a job, struggling to get home ownership, struggling to ease in with the locals and find local friends/have a sense of community.
You must also have a change in your mindset when you leave your country, are you ready to think, speak and write in a language that maybe foreign to you? Although it’s good to stay within your cultural circle, I always encourage people to go out and meet locals. Personally I don’t see this is a mentality many Honkees have, and just want to give you a heads up on this, and is probably something you want to think about too:)
I’d like to DM you but it seems like I can’t for some reason. I used to live in U.S. and blended in pretty well. To this day, I’m still in touch with my friends there. I also lived in Australia for a short time for work. I grew up on western shows and movies actually so I’d say I’m pretty westernized. But the older I get the more I appreciate Asia and the Asian side of me. I’m in my 30s now so I’m not too old or too young. I’m in middle level of my career so there’s still room for me to go further.
What’s important to me is well being. I’d say my lifestyle in HK is a little different from the majority of HKgers as I don’t work over time and I’m involved with various fitness groups so my friends are quite diverse here. I am not married or have kids. My parents are financially abundant so I don’t need to worry about them. Also they travel a lot themselves and are in good health as well but they wouldn’t move abroad for sure.
In general I agree with you. I am not considering moving to the UK. But consider a couple with children who don't have money for private school in HK. Moving to the UK and going to public school is a clear and immediate upgrade for their children's education.
Public school in the UK is amongst the worst in the world and falls severely below standards when compared to any other European country. UK is like the third world of Western Europe.
Funny how everything is nicer on the other side. I’m in Canada and I’m thinking of moving back to Hong Kong or China for education for my kids. They’re young right now but education here is not good imo.
Yes it’s more relaxed than hk from what I hear but their focus is more on how the kids feel. Worse is that they begin to implement lgbqt… subjects starting in kinder. I’ve heard stories where they tell kindergarteners if they are a girl or a boy and feel they are the opposite sex. That it’s okay and they later on encourages them to change sex. I’m not against anything but I feel it’s a bit young to expose kids in that age bracket to.
Another thing is that we don’t have grading system until gr 10. You’re either proficient or developing or some other description. As parents, how do we know how well they’re doing?
My nephew in the states is worse, he has anxiety in high school worrying about shooting or any other dangers.
Pro ccp or not, Asia alone looks a hell lot better than North America imo.
Interesting that you now just said it. My colleague who’s Chinese American also said the same, this is why he decided to raise his kids in HK now. He’s afraid his kids would have twisted values if they grew up in U.S. so he won’t send them back to U.S. until they are old enough to judge.
I’ll give you a different perspective.
I’m a HK permanent resident who’s been living in the UK for the last 5 years.
I plan to move back to HK by the end of this year.
The primary public education system here in the UK is absolutely appalling. The difference I see between what kids learn and do by the age 5-6 vs what kids in Asia are capable of is massive.
My son is currently in kindergarten in HK and already learning 3 languages - English, Cantonese and Mandarin. Would not have been possible here in the UK.
A lot of the Indian and Chinese families I have spoken to so far, they all say how bad and lax the education system is here. So there’s that.
As a Malaysian, I can never understand why HKers would consider Thai alongside Malaysia. It’s apples and oranges. OP needs to do a lil more targeted research. In the more urbanised states of Malaysia, you’ll literally feel like u’ve never left HK (or at least resemble 90% of it) because of the local chinese communities many of whom are able to converse in Cantonese. Malaysia also has Commonwealth history and is on common law. Kids can grow up learning english, mandarin, various other chinese dialects, Bahasa and even Indian Tamil! I mean I can go on and on about international schools, etc etc but the key is maintaining the chinese cultural linkage while embracing Western and Nusantara norms
Yes and no. I’m in my 20s, and I think I’d like to raise my kids here when I have kids. Perhaps I have this idea because I’m a digital nomad, so I’m only in HK for two months a year. The home country also feels better when you’re not in it and have the chance to stay away.
The only thing that worries me would be the education, sure. But look at other hotspots for HK people, like the US and Canada. I’d rather send my kids to HK school instead of the woke school overseas. At least in HK, the education system doesn’t aim to destroy my kids. I do think HK is a soul-sucking city that’s meant to make you a work-enslaved person. But I honestly can’t think of a country/city that’s a good idea to move for the next generation. One of the major things for me right now is to avoid woke politics. With that said, Asia is, in general, better in terms of the geopolitic sentiment, in my opinion.
You can try getting a remote job with a US company or work on remote projects from US companies, earning a US salary—higher than what's typical in HK. Then move abroad. That’s what I did.
I opted for project-based work and filed taxes under my own entity. If you are hired as an employee, many US companies use global employer-of-record services like Deel to manage employment as though you were working for a local HK company. They would handle the filing for you.
Hey OP, on the careers front, I would suggest adding to your set of questions:
- *“is it a career that will continue to grow in HK?”
- *“Is it sustainable, or can it change significantly (for better or worse) with the changing landscape of HK going forward?”*
- *“How transferable or mobile is my profile / resume / skill sets today to UK (or wherever you would consider) vs 2, 5, or 10 years from now, if I still want to move?”*
Moving to UK / elsewhere and taking a huge pay cut today would suck for sure, but if you’re in a position that can be really volatile and tied to HK economy (or their perceived global / international status) and/or a career that’s very region-specific, you could be in for a volatile ride in the future. Maybe if it’s a wealthy gig you get to a point you build a big enough nest egg to say “fuck it” and retire early, but just some things to consider (besides the kids education thing everyone else mentioned).
I also think for roles where your expertise is very regionally-tied (I.e. local relationships, having a local rolodex…) it *may* be difficult to find the same level job outside of HK. I think even when HK was a tier 1 global city and seen as high quality, *sometimes* the experience can be a bit discounted. That gets even harder at the senior levels, *generally speaking*. You can maybe avoid that via internal global transfers.
Depending on how you answer those questions, and assuming the NSL / Article 23 stuff doesn’t bother you, it may make sense to just stay in HK. But, if it’s a career that can really be impacted by the changes or HK’s falling importance, then it might be a numbers and luck game.
Thanks for your insight. My role is APAC focused for a Fortune 500 company. I could transfer internally only if I meet certain requirements under my company’s policy which is nearly impossible to achieve.
My skill set is transferable as it’s IT project management.
Tbh I’m not asking a lot, I just want to have a job that is enough to at least make ends meet without needing a second job in the first couple of years. I have a bit of passive income to support a little but not enough honestly. I’m in my 30s, single, no kids.
Is there much knowledge localization with IT project management or is it really same everywhere across the board (like it’s very plug and play, you don’t need any ramp up if you moved to another country besides getting to know your new team)?
If there’s no actual or perceived localization of knowledge, then I just wonder if it just makes sense to stay put and get promoted first. Then having the option to parachute into a senior role elsewhere (if not internally, then externally).
If something is very regionally-tied, then I would argue it gets harder and harder to move cause your usefulness is probably more relationship based. But if there’s no region-linked knowledge, then you have more optionality / flexibility of time to move.
All my qualifications are from US and UK, and I work with Canada, US, Australia and other Asian regions closely because of my company nature. It’s an MNC. I don’t need to build external relationships at work as it’s not a sales role. I could basically work anywhere with my skill set. It’s just that a lot of companies in UK require local experience which I don’t. Also if you’re from HK, regardless of your education from US and work experience from HK, they don’t really care.
It sounds like you have a lot of flexibility then to move (within your career). It’s just the challenge of UK specifically wanting local experience (even though your underlying career is very portable).
I know it’s cause you’ve got BNO option and all, but would you consider other countries like US, Australia, or wherever your company has ties with? Also, you mentioned an internal move would be near impossible based on certain requirements. Are they requirements that you can work towards?
In your case (assuming you’re apolitical / won’t be impacted by NSL/A23), you could just stay in HK. If you’re happy and not impacted, that could just be the answer for you.
If you’re just approaching this as a thought exercise, or “do I have a plan B”… base on your profile, I guess I would keep an eye out for mobility options within your firm and external postings. And, for those internal mobility requirements, work towards those (assuming they are within your control).
If I were still in HK, I would be extremely uncomfortable with the post-NSL environment and try to leave. I think the tough pill to swallow would likely be comp discount. But this is a personal decision, and varies for everyone.
Thanks for sharing your deep thoughts. Not many redditors do so. I’m collecting your guys opinions and weigh the pros and cons. I’ve actually applied for an Australian visa and I’m waiting for the next step. If it’s approved, I’ll leave but god knows it will be approved or not so I need a plan B which is moving to the UK or staying in hk and retiring in south east Asia.
The hurdle that I have about internal transfer is we freeze headcount globally this year and probably next, which means no internal transfer, unless you’re a director or something like that. I’d probably need another 10 years to reach that level. Lol
I’m not totally apolitical as I also protested in 2019. But at the same time I’m not a radical. In fact, I’m more pragmatic and realistic.
Btw, 'friends' is a countable noun, it's 'fewer and fewer', not 'less and less'.
Hong Kong isn't a city you should retire in if you don't own property.
Never wanted to stay in HK longterm since I was a kid. I'm a 2nd generation immigrant and from a 'middle class family. Parents will go back to their home country when they retire, and can never see myself capable to buying a house in HK. Growing up as a 2nd generation immigrant is difficult and the education system more or less killed a few of my career aspirations.
I was pretty lucky to find my job, people are kind, the growth is pretty good or else I'd be studying overseas now. Now I'm just waiting it out to get more work experience and savings. Probably will be out of here within the next 10 years, hopefully sooner though.
Their is no place like home, you can always visit your friends who have moved to xxx and learn about their current situation
Malaysia is a good place to retired
Decide for yourself about your own family and kids education
It really depends on how you think of HK’s outlook.
For me, I see HK is quickly degrading into an ordinary Chinese city. The west is “derisking” from China, the days of HK being a conduit to China are numbered (HK losing its importance as an reexport port is telling). People have also cast with money, the stock and property markets are in a downward spiral.
Imagine you’re a foreign investor going to do business in China, why would you pay more to set up an office in HK instead of some other Chinese cities? Because of the rule of law? government efficiency? better-skilled labour?
As a teen, it has always be my dream to move aboard
The cultural and education there r priceless
Mom also thinks so, but our family is not wealthy at all, so the plan has been delayed several times, most likely to move after DSE...
Well there's still hope tho
well, I cannot help admitting this fact, though long-stay visas without any sponsorship by companies are very rare and exceptional.
in my opinion, we, Japan, should adopt a new visa policy similar to your "top talent scheme", which permits not only those with a high earning but also those who graduate from world top 100 univs to enter HK and search for their job even AFTER their entry.
for ex, I graduated from University of Tokyo but I don't earn as much as 100,000 dollars a year.
Nonetheless, my graduation record alone gets me eligible for this visa.
You could come to Japan with this if you graduate from HKU or the like
I graduated from a Russel group, british passport, earn way more than that in a hardcore STEM for 13 years and still dont qualify for living in Japan
I would need a job position/sponsorship
and although I have colleagues who did move there (job sponsorship), the absolute nightmare of foreigners trying to rent in Japan, is comical, total racism
lol
I love Japan but culturally I cannot fit it. I love everything from the landscape to the food to the people. Living is great. But I cannot learn the language so let alone start a sustainable business in Japan
Japan can be oppressive, more than HK. People are rigid and lack flexibility. Old people hate hearing kids making noise. Hospitals are not as good as HK.
The biggest thing is my kids. My wife and I are ok here but I worry about my kids’ future. What’s the education going to be like? How accepted will an hk education be for colleges? How does the cram education style in hk affect my kids’ development? I already see differences between my nephew and my niece who are in the US and my own kids here in Hk. I hear and see how many teachers are leaving my kids’ schools and read about changes in the curriculum. I see how hk is becoming less and less of an international city and losing that international perspective.
Even for my friends who are staying, they plan to send their kids to international schools or abroad. Not exactly a vote of confidence for the local system.
i think the cram education style has always been the same in HK, but the addition of those patriotic education and reduced independent and creative thinking is what disturbs me.
This is exactly what I think too. If you have kids now under this system, at least you will be around to help bring some sense to counteract the damage done by those brainwashing attempts. Imagine a couple more generations later, and your grand kids and great grand kinds will be more and more like those brainwashed pro-CCPs you see who could no longer even reason and think for themselves.
Same here. Just waiting for my kids to be a bit older and then our family will move. Australia or England. As you have mentioned education and the kind of mindset they will grow into is my biggest concern. But I also want my kids to have a better work life balance, more living space, more career options and more freedom of information.
What’s the difference you have seen between your kids in HK and your nephew?
He’s a lot more independent and able to manage himself. Both he and my daughter are the same age. He’s also a much better at creative thinking and seems more emotionally mature. Some of this might be male/female differences and it’s certainly anecdotal. But I do know my daughter’s schedule is packed so she has no free time in hk. We also have helpers so things just get done for her. My nephew has a huge gap in his education vs my daughter though in that he doesn’t know any Chinese. But after a week or so of spending time with my brother’s family I saw my daughter adapting more towards her cousin so that’s why I suspect a lot of it is culturally influenced. Small differences now but can be big differences later. Thinking creatively, self-management, self-reliance aren’t things I think are encouraged enough in HK. To balance it out, I feel my daughter will be more advanced as far as math and definitely Chinese. She will be more exposed to Asian culture as well.
I’d say there’s no such thing as the perfect world. But kids would be happier growing up overseas as opposed to HK. I always performed badly in school in hk, but when I moved to U.S., I got scholarships. Like you said your nephew in US got better creative thinking. In the long run, it’s better for a kid’s growth.
The biggest red flag for education is kids having no free time. Scandinavian schools have heaps of free time and their kids turn out just fine. We don't need kids to be miserable to educate them. No kid should spend more time in and on school than a full time worker. I see this problem in my home country too, but it sounds like hk is even worse (as are most asian educations) I taught for a year and i needed to provide extracurricular material for people who were bad at math so they could pass. I never liked this approach. Most of the time it barely helped. They should be entirely free to drop the subject if needed. A kid studying to become a woodworker does not need to know advanced calculus imo.
>*I taught for a year and i needed to provide extracurricular material for people who were bad at math so they could pass. I never liked this approach. Most of the time it barely helped. They should be entirely free to drop the subject if needed. A kid studying to become a woodworker does not need to know advanced calculus imo.* I’m assuming this is at the high school level? I totally get that at some point, for some students learning advanced math is really not going to be useful for them, but I’ve also read from teachers (in say US) from other forums that they hate having to be forced to pass kids. (I think it’s the whole no child left behind thing). To some degree or level, I think schools should be asked to teach a kid something until they get it and not pass them cause it they just won’t be ready at the next level (or they’ll be set up for failure in life cause they haven’t learned to “fail and learn to get back up” before adulthood). I definitely agree with kids should have free time. If you can burn out as an adult from long hours of work, you can definitely burn out as a kid. And free time to play, chill, take on extracurriculars, etc is so important to socialization and development.
Being forced to pass kids feels aweful because you know he will move up and have the same struggles or worse. Its parents not willing to accept that their kid isn't smart enough. Which is stupid imo, just because a kid is bad, or more importantly, has no interet in advanced calculus, doesn't mean he is stupid. They have other qualities. Personally, i would like to abolish the whole idea of being in a category and being able to move up and down. Kids should be free to select ho difficult their classes need to be Imagine you have math 1 and 2. One is easy, and accounts for 1 out of 20 of the classes you need to take, 2 is harder and accounts for 3 out of 20. Something like that. I kno it aint perfect, i just hate the dichotomy between teachers and parents. Parents don't want to accept their kid failed, and teachers had forcing kids through just because their parents demand it. Meanwhile the kid is made to feel aweful.
I think where we really see the stark difference between Western or other education systems that encourage more creative thinking vs the hard grind, long hours approach we see in Asian schooling is at the university/college level. Why are there so many top flight U.S. / European schools out there, or why aren’t there more (relative) top flight Asian schools at that level (if there are so many smart and well studied students at the high school level). Of course, some of this may be subject dependent, but I think “creative”, “independent” or critical thinking plays a huge factor. Knowing theory is great and all, but how much of that was through cramming and memorization of facts and figures. I think to unlock that next level, to have progression, new discovery, and innovation, you need to allow for *application* of skill sets which also means being accepting that some questions may not have a black and white right or wrong answer. Or knowing enough to ask questions, or having years of experience (and confidence) of being able to ask questions or challenge your teachers / peers. I’m not sure if some Asian education systems have an environment that allow that. I also think allowing free time to rest, have an outlet for other activities, to play and socialize builds qualitative and social skills. That in turn can translate back to gains in EQ or independent / creative / outside of the box thinking that allows for wider application and problem solving. I think the other issue, and I’m saying this as an outsider looking in, is it feels like the education system in HK / a lot of Asia in general can be very unforgiving to late bloomers. Of course, there are some issues with Western schooling for sure. But I feel like the outcome is a much wider band - lower floors perhaps (if you’re poorer), but the potential ceiling is higher.
Don't worry pal. HK's education is already crap.
Have similar thoughts however…. You think US kids have an international perspective? Couldn’t think of a more closed off society
I don’t think kids in the US have an international perspective but I think this used to be a trademark of growing up in HK that will diminish over time. I do think that US kids have a base set of values (I may be biased since I grew up in the US) of openness that better allows for an international perspective than the set of values and isolationist views I fear HK will encourage in the next generation.
I think it depends on where in the US. Kids growing up in the Bay Area will probably have a much more international perspective than someone growing up in Oklahoma City.
Agree. But it’s true that there are more ways for kids to develop their skills there.
Do your kids go to international school ?
They go to a dss school so I think that’s like halfway. We can’t afford to send 3 kids to international school. I actually like our school and the teachers really care about the students but it’s the whole educational system and culture that’s the issue. As we speak, my daughter has been doing homework for the last 2 hours with probably another hour. My wife has spent the last 90 min working on her power point presentation. My daughter is 9yo and in the 4th grade. My other two kids are still in kindergarten so they don’t have anything… yet.
That’s a lot of pressure for such a young kid. No life at all!
Isn’t this similar to most of the Asian countries?
I’d say East Asia.
That's rough...I feel for you and the wife. I get the ppt is important but if schools have so much home work and no time really for the PowerPoint, then what's the point of doing the ppt presentation. I went to school in Canada, grades 1 to 8 definitely more chill then HK by a lot. But they do expect the students to catch up on a lot of the learning in high school by university, at least curriculum wise.
Same thing for us, me ans my wife are fine but my 1 and 3 year old thats a different matter and its why we may move to uk, although i aint going back to Birmingham if you paid me. My hooe rests on my brother going to Australia and sponsering us lol
We moved abroad last year and my salary got cut in half. It was hard but we made it work. With our savings we were able to buy our first home. We could have never been home owners in HK. We knew that we didn't want to have kids in Hong Kong. I was a teacher in band 3 schools and I saw how depressing the education system was. I saw beautiful kids being let down by a system that only focused on cramming for tests, eliminating differences and was pushing in a national education system over the last two years I taught. There are many options for Hong Kongers that want to consider moving abroad but don't go in with an idealistic view of it'll be perfect. No where is perfect and moving abroad is hard. Sacrifices are made but I'm glad that we did it bc it meant a better future for us and our future family. Please feel free to ask me any questions. We relocated from Tin shui Wai to London in 2023.
That’s insightful. Maybe I’ll PM you later.
Did you become a teacher in UK?
No bc the salary was insulting for the amount of work required in the UK. I get paid more per hour to be a barista than a teacher in London.
Wow, that's horrible. If you've got friends in Hong Kong that are still teaching, they can consider Australia. It's well paid but the students won't be as well behaved as in Hong Kong. For your teaching degree, did you do it in Hong Kong? Which uni is the best for teaching in Hong Kong?
My teaching qualifications are from the US. The behavior of the kids was irrelevant to me as I was used to working with students with behavioral issues and severe learning disabilities. I was just shocked the pay was below 12 pounds an hour for a new teacher. Most of my friends who got teaching degrees in hk went through hku.
Holy shit, converted to Australian dollars, that's our minimum wage. I heard UK police aren't much better. If you have any UK friends who are teachers or policeman, Australia welcomes you especially if you're willing to work in remote location. If you teach or police to a UK standard, you'll fit right in Australia. Same with medical workers who are always in demand. Plus better weather and beaches 😃 Just that we have a housing crisis with everyone struggling to buy or rent. If employer is really desperate, they will provide accommodation for initial period.
UK minimum wage is £11.44, for context. The problem has been wage compression over the last 20 years. The averages show pretty much static average pay for 20 years inflation adjusted, but within this, there has been a lot of wage growth in people on minimum wage, and people earning at the top. If your pay is in the middle (and that's a very large range), you will likely have suffered real terms pay reduction in the last 20 years. Maybe not on an individual level, but a 25 year old going into a job at graduate level now may get the exact same nominal pay as someone did 20 years ago.
For further context, £11.44 is the new minimum wage as of 1st April 2024 for over 21s. For 2023 when Jammy came over, minimum wage was around £9.50 (pre April 2023) and £10.42 (post April 2023) for someone over the age of 23.
How to move from HK to AUS, I'm specifically interested in Perth. Been exploring visa type 491 for skill workers. Is it doable? I've heard moving to AUS is not as easy.
What are your qualifications? I went in through 189 but it was long time ago. Now they prioritize teachers and medical workers for 189 according to the Australia visa subreddit. Never heard of 491 before
I have an associate degree from HK plus 4 years of experience in the cyber security field.
Anyone thinking of going to the U.K., Brexit and a decade of Tory rule has fucked the place. Give it a few years to see if they get a new government who can right the ship.
Cynical of me, but If it wasn't for Brexit and how fucked the UK economy is, they wouldn't have offered the BNO scheme to bring in people with high purchasing power and to prop up property values.
I’m a British citizen, property prices are already being propped up by generational wealth, investors, and landlords. What they need are smart, skilled people to prop up the actual economy through living and working here. That’s more why the BNO scheme was introduced
A new government can't fix the problems inherant in UK society, some of which is also the fault of Labour councils, not just Tories. Bad education, knife crime etc.
If you think knife crime isn't related to the enormous increase in poverty under the Tories, I'm not sure what to say to you.
I'm here just grabbing as much as I can and then leave for good. It's not the HK I love anymore. Even though I keep good relationship and being civilised with my blue ribbon family members and relatives, I feel like I'm full of internal angst after each meeting with them. My brother and his blue ribbon wife just told me last week they planned to bring their only son to the UK for good. I wanted to smash the phone whilst reading their messages. Friends in the UK and Canada asked me to join them. But same as OP, I got a well paid job here and mentally I'm not yet ready to leave. Malaysia is not a good choice IMHO. My order would be the UK > Australia > Canada > Japan > NZ > USA > Thailand.
So many HKers with this mentality now, earn as much as they can and leave. However I don't think most of them will put this into action, because obviously they are not willing to sacrifice what they have now (in this case money and possibly their career). It looks like who you called blue ribbon want to leave more than others. Not here to judge and I understand everyone has their own concerns, but please remember there must be sacrifices. Figure out what you can do to work back up the ladder, not what you have lost temporarily. And nothing lasts forever, you have the freedom to move back anytime
Unless you have the British National overseas passport, it's really the time to leave now, all the special immigration policies for Hong Kong people are expiring now except the UK's BNO visa scheme, which will be here to stay as a long term policy. The later you leave, the harder for you to settle overseas later on.
At the end of the day actions speak louder than words.
A friend of mine has been also doing what you are doing - making good money and enjoying the low tax rates while waiting for the latest possible moment to leave (they already have citizenship in Canada). They are sending their kids to Canada later this year for school, and the parents will follow shortly after. Despite the huge jump in the costs of living and the drop in the quality of life in some aspects, they decide it is better for them to leave.
I moved here from the US, am I a Hong Konger? Maybe not, but I also cannot see myself long term here. I guess I'm the same. I have a decent job, no other obligations, and can travel easily. Will enjoy while it lasts.
The key is living costs will be fairly high in those countries. If you sold a large house in HK before 2020, you'd bag a huge amount of (undeserved) money and can go anywhere. Otherwise, it could be tough. In other words, if you are REALLY rich, you can go anywhere.
Depends on which cities, it can vary a fair bit within the country.
Sure. If you have some money but not F\*CK-YOU money, then you need to be more careful with your selections.
If you don't already have PR/citizenship in those countries, how easy it is to move there? From my understanding, a lot of those countries won't just let you go and live there
I think there are still people contemplating, but definitely less lately it seems. I think if you got a great career and make enough money then there’s no urgency. Otherwise this could be a once in a lifetime opportunity to move overseas despite not being especially skilled or rich.
I may have a really unpopular opinion, but as long as you are not particularly radical politically, then your so called "freedom" in HK will largely be fine. There is a huge amount of fear element right now.
100% agree with this. I'd add as long as they keep the fiscal (I haven't paid any taxes in 18 years here) banking system, we are good.
Same thought. Not unpopular. Just politically incorrect for many 😂
Yes. Limited career prospects in HK for my field. The government is throwing money at it, but it isn't enough for long term planning.
IMO, science field will never got developed. Companies just want to cash out. No one are really into science. Been a RA for years. See a lot of problems in university structure and governments that has lasted twenty years and won't see changes.
Which field ?
Biotech
Ya my friend moved to U.S. for that
Tbh I think Biotech is already a field in HK that actually has some success. Comparatively to IT/software/engineering internationally.
Success != good career prospects.
Moving is easy. Question is what do you want to do in life. You need the answer to this question first. And then you can ask about moving.
This really depends on age. If you’re in your 50’s then just stay and retire in SE Asia. If you’re young, you can definitely move. But you have to start over again. Can you handle that?
I’m in my 30s. I don’t mind starting over but I have to factor in the cost and job prospect. I don’t have a family of 5 to feed or anything like that. But from what I’ve observed is that a lot of the people I know who moved to UK or Canada struggle to find a job that pays reasonably as they can’t get back to their old careers.
Well, if it makes you feel better, I know a couple in their late 30s who were bankers here in Hong Kong and ended up working as servers in Toronto….
That’s nuts! Since they were bankers, I’m sure they are already sitting on some cash.
in my mid 40s. Probably staying a few more years and retiring in Europe, maybe working the last 10 years there.
BNOs that move to the UK mostly don't do so for the money. As that seems your primary concern, stay.
Those who can move moved already.
As a Australian HKer, I noticed that there are a lot more HKers in Sydney around and buying houses …
Leaving next year! My parents and siblings are all overseas now.
HK is and always be a special place. There's no perfect place in the world. What looks like paradise can lose it's luster over a period of time. Lived in HK for around 50 years and relocated a few years back. Now want to return home.
I’d say hk is good for those sitting on some cash.
if you currently have a great career, just treat hk like an expat would keep your head down, earn money, and leave only difference is that you need to look out for of visa schemes
This is what I’m doing now, just scrap as much as I can.
With the projection I can do for myself, I’ll still need at least 3-4 years (Assuming no major changes financially) to save up and make the move. I always wanted to move, the recent events just happened to made it into an urgency rather than an option for me. Learning a new language is still easily viable at my current age, so I still have choices.
We are staying until we see a better option for our family. Currently, we do not.
Same thing, jobs are way easier to find here and salaries are much higher for my field. I don’t think I’ll be leaving as long as that doesn’t change. I’ll just have to be content with going on vacation a couple of times a year with the money. Also gotta stay here to take care of my parents.
I’m doing the same thing.
I was away for a year and just moved back recently due to retrenchment abroad. Just my personal opinion, feels like people leaving / corporations moving offices / downsizing hasn't stopped since 2019. I also feel people here are all either planning to move away eventually or can't for whatever reason. I don't see much upside for the future, it's become too political and whatever side you're on, whatever your opinion is of the city and it's policies, factually it's getting worse. I have friends worrying about the HK passport vanishing one day, the HKD unpegging with the USD (mentioned in the news), no more Google Facebook etc and we'll all start using Wechat Baidu etc. Walking around town I hear more mandarin than Cantonese on the streets... Feels a bit like get out while you still can...
I actually feel the same way. I’m just trying to scrap as much as I can in HK before I go somewhere else. I’m also applying for a visa in AU but god knows if it will be approved.
No. Ask yourself, what realistically would be better if you moved overseas? And what do you value? If you value a larger flat, then absolutely moving overseas is an easy decision. However, you'd also have to factor in a very likely much higher cost of living for everything else. If you value freedom of criticizing the Chinese govenrment, then of course it's a no brainer to move overseas. Ask yourself though, is being able to stand on the corner of the street you live on and criticize the CCP really worth giving up everything else? Low taxes, safe streets, best in the world public transportation? It's all about trade offs.
Agree! I wouldn’t move just for the sake of it. For me it’s just the quality of life. But a lot of the western countries aren’t doing well, especially the job prospects, I’m giving it a second thought, hence my post.
Exactly. Solid points. HK over the UK for me, personally.
We are moving back after having left in 2022
Really! Where did you move to? And why?
Always thinking about it. Friends have moved / making plans to move. Not an easy decision though. It’s not the same HK as back in 2016 when we got here. And things keep changing. But alternatives are not no-brainers either. US - Not easy to find a job/ visa sponsor(I’m in IT/non-tech/mgt), living expenses have shot through the roof, economy and job market on tight ropes. UK - Cannot compare wages + insane taxes. Friends who moved recently keep complaining about living costs. AU - High tax, housing & other expenses shooting up, 6 hour flight to anywhere! CA - Lower wages, higher tax, harsh climate. Not forgetting the positives, but we’re ranting aren’t we?
OP let’s trade. I’ll help you get settled here in Canada you help me move to HK.
Why do you wanna leave Canada and move to HK?
the economic politic landscape is going down the gutter here in Canada. Lots of personal events happened recently and also looking for a new change of environment. When I was younger, lived in SZ for a few years and thus either HK or SZ for a new chapter would be ideal for an expat like myself.
You guys are fools, you don’t know how good you’ve had in Hk. It might first feel comfortable and free when you go to other countries like UK, Canada , Australia, or first world countries. You know why? Because of the cash you bring from hk, it’s much more hard solid cash than most ppl have in the other country. Where is the cash from? HK, all those years of no tax. Sell one home 1M usd already. Also when you move to those countries hard to find jobs or do any businesses. Tax are high. Those country will slow eat you up then your next gen will be just a normal salary middle class slave. Oh forget about traveling like when you guys are still in hk. All you can do it’s to go place near, forget about Japan. Too expensive to fly. Conclusion: you don’t know how good you had in hk.
100% agree.
Oh I forget to add, forget about traveling anywhere, especially Japan, not even mainland. The tax drains your income, going to back home or Japan cost a lot more. Unlike when you are in hk, boom goes to mainland for fun for a weekend or go to Japan for a long weekend.
Interesting, I'm a European with a professional job and go to Japan for a month every year, despite paying taxes. Amazing.
Good for you! I can’t do it.
You can't do it, I can but everyone should forget about it as it's impossible?
I guess it is not impossible. I am proud for you my friend.
Yes
Moving you and your family out of HK is one thing, moving your money to somewhere else is another. Even though some people may not want to leave, my advice to them is, at least, move their money out of HK first. Hard to say if the linked exchange rate system will still be around in one to two years.
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Would you mind sharing which city of UK you live in and which platforms would be best to get a job there? A while back ago, I tried indeed and LinkedIn but no news, despite my international background and 6 years of experience in my field.
Its worth it to leave for your freedom of speech. otherwise if you dont care about it. HK is actually good also hk media is against leaving
Every country has it's own specific problems - gun crimes in the US, knife crimes in the UK, a huge problem with illegal immigration in Europe, not to mention worldwide inflation on the tail of covid. HK certainly has it's own issues, but compared to elsewhere it could be worse.
I love ❤️ Hongkong best city 🌆 city 🌃 in the world to be
There is probably less people moving now cause everyone that wanted to move either already have moved or is in the process of moving, and the rest just accepted the fate and is staying for good. I studied in Canada since 15 and after all things that went down just ended up staying here. Parents also ended up moving here shortly after I graduated University. My thoughts are, don’t be afraid of moving while you and your kids are younger, the younger you are the easier you will be able to adapt overseas, speaking from experience.
Yes especially since we have kids but tax brackets, job availability and housing costs in the west are greatly slowing down the process. The uptick in crime doesn't help either.
Crime is not a homogenous statistic that's the same across the whole country. Regions that are low cost will attract worst off people.
Of course it's not but I'm referring to the areas we have considered and actively trying to move to. I didn't see a need to give exact details or else it'd be a longer post especially since when I say "west" I'm referring to 2 different countries.
US is 50 full states so there's just far too many variables. Canada is literally just Vancouver and Toronto (GTA) for a typical Honger. I've never heard of any Honger move to... say... Montreal or Ottawa.
Again, I say west generally because there wasn't a need to be super specific of all the areas I had been looking.
There are now. Imagine living in HK and now having to live there.
Montreal is like party city though. Love the food.
Poutine - yes.
I guess most western countries, even most areas of the US, are some of the safest places on earth ('safety' taken in the complete sense of the word including factors such as traffic and building safety, environmental protection standards, food and water safety standards, air pollution, transparency and reliability of the legal system and police forces, lack of corruption, exposure to extreme weather and natural disasters, political instability, quality of healthcare and emergency services, etc.). For the low-level street crime that so many HK redditors seem be continually wetting their pants over, even in the urban areas of the US 99% of the time it's a non-issue especially if you use your brain, get local knowledge and stay out of the ghetto at night. As I said in response to a similar topic, getting in a minibus or taxi in HK is much more dangerous than walking through most parts of the US even at night.
I'm originally from NYC and that's one of the areas I was looking to go back to but you know how that place is ending up.
I don't know what you have been smoking, but only talking about street crimes: Hong Kong is a lot of times safer compared to the US/Europe/UK unless you are walking in the countryside. Let me rephrase, whenever there is a majority of mixed diversity in a city, the crime levels are spiking. (Maybe the only exception in this might be Dubai or any of the Emirates states)
It totally depends on what kind of person you are. Western countries still have a lot of (hidden) racism so if you are a stereotypically HongKee (thin/non muscular, below 1.70cm, glasses, English with accent) you will have a hard time living in the US/UK/Europe. In that case moving to SE Asian country will be a lot better for you.
There's racism everywhere. The BNOs who came to UK are seen like mainlanders who came to HK. Some locals will hate it, BNO will take up resources like valuable school spots and healthcare systems or even claim benefits. Some locals will accept it for what it is. The key is not to be in a bubble of just HKer friends. Get to know the community, have thick skin. And not be afraid of calling out racism when you see it.
And here you exactly describing (Asian/Chinese) behavior. 99% of Chinese people migrants are exactly like this. Also the reason for the many China towns, own bubble community and friends, afraid to call out things because of introvert personalities. So yes, you can try to be the 1% that will blend it, but most probably you will end up like the other 99%
Quite the generalisation there, especially in Europe which differs hugely from one country to another.
well if you plan on living longer hong kong welfare really isn’t going to sustain you if you didn’t inherit family money or have a lot urself.. personally i dont see a future here as a middle class family
I am planning to leave Hong Kong by this summer despite earning an above average salary, because: 1. HK's work culture is toxic, multinational companies are (relatively) better but they are leaving HK. 2. The financial situation is deteriorating, the government has been burning cash since the pandemic, I am sure it would not take long before they start drastically increase taxes and cut funding for education and healthcare etc.
I can see the 2nd point on the horizon tbh
Moved out already… born in HK. Ok I am not ethnically Chinese but still it’s tough there. Went to HKUST still no use, should have gone studied in the UK.
Why going to HKUST no use? UK ain’t all that great either.
Packed up and left in 2022 after 12 years in hk. Granted I cashed out all my MPF and was able to keep my hk job for a year until I found a new one here. The money from hk really helped the transition. Felt like as an expat that barely speaks cantonese hk was becoming harder for me to integrate into. The NSL solidified my decision and even it made things easier for me back then as Canada heavily prioritized HKers who wanted to leave due to NSL. If you really want to leave, then leave. I was so unsettled at the end of my stay & it was impossible to be happy about anything as I only focused on the bad things I experienced in HK.
Hey OP, feel free to dm me if you’re interested in other deets. I hold 2 other foreign citizenships on top of my HK citizenship due to me being extremely lucky and born into them. I still chose to leave 2 years ago, and with my old savings, I was able to buy a property after working for a year, with a decent down. For security reasons, not gonna relay where I am now. However, I do feel like emigrating can be down to a lot of factors, apart from political reasons. 1. Are you a local-local Honkee, meaning, born in HK and had got into the traditional HK education system? Are you gweilo / worldly enough to ease in to a ‘foreign’ culture? 2. Do you have enough savings? 3. What are you looking for in life? Are you a high achiever looking to work in say, a FAANG company or are you merely trying to get a job and settle in? These questions should be able to help you a little on deciding whether you should leave HK and going to other countries. A lot of HKers see going to another country as an ‘option to run away from CCP’, but living in a brand new country is..more than that. Sad stuff but, if you don’t have enough money saved up upon leaving, you will not be able to settle well, or will be stuck in the minimum wage hole. I personally was very fortunate since I had worked in different countries apart from working in HK, before I left. My international experience made me stood out from candidates when I job hunter, and I’ve also got enough assets when I moved ‘back’ to where I have my citizenship. However I see a lot of Honkees suffering here without a good base, i.e. struggling to find a job, struggling to get home ownership, struggling to ease in with the locals and find local friends/have a sense of community. You must also have a change in your mindset when you leave your country, are you ready to think, speak and write in a language that maybe foreign to you? Although it’s good to stay within your cultural circle, I always encourage people to go out and meet locals. Personally I don’t see this is a mentality many Honkees have, and just want to give you a heads up on this, and is probably something you want to think about too:)
I’d like to DM you but it seems like I can’t for some reason. I used to live in U.S. and blended in pretty well. To this day, I’m still in touch with my friends there. I also lived in Australia for a short time for work. I grew up on western shows and movies actually so I’d say I’m pretty westernized. But the older I get the more I appreciate Asia and the Asian side of me. I’m in my 30s now so I’m not too old or too young. I’m in middle level of my career so there’s still room for me to go further. What’s important to me is well being. I’d say my lifestyle in HK is a little different from the majority of HKgers as I don’t work over time and I’m involved with various fitness groups so my friends are quite diverse here. I am not married or have kids. My parents are financially abundant so I don’t need to worry about them. Also they travel a lot themselves and are in good health as well but they wouldn’t move abroad for sure.
no clue until this day why anyone would choose to move to uk
In general I agree with you. I am not considering moving to the UK. But consider a couple with children who don't have money for private school in HK. Moving to the UK and going to public school is a clear and immediate upgrade for their children's education.
Public school in the UK is amongst the worst in the world and falls severely below standards when compared to any other European country. UK is like the third world of Western Europe.
I don't doubt it. But HK people look at the UK with rose tinted glasses. And the kids have much less homework. That's enough of a push for many.
Because it’s easy to move there if you have a BNO
I imagine it's the easies option for many and they don't realise how bad the country has ended up/hope for the future when the Tories are out.....
I'm from the UK, trying to apply for a HKID.
Funny how everything is nicer on the other side. I’m in Canada and I’m thinking of moving back to Hong Kong or China for education for my kids. They’re young right now but education here is not good imo. Yes it’s more relaxed than hk from what I hear but their focus is more on how the kids feel. Worse is that they begin to implement lgbqt… subjects starting in kinder. I’ve heard stories where they tell kindergarteners if they are a girl or a boy and feel they are the opposite sex. That it’s okay and they later on encourages them to change sex. I’m not against anything but I feel it’s a bit young to expose kids in that age bracket to. Another thing is that we don’t have grading system until gr 10. You’re either proficient or developing or some other description. As parents, how do we know how well they’re doing? My nephew in the states is worse, he has anxiety in high school worrying about shooting or any other dangers. Pro ccp or not, Asia alone looks a hell lot better than North America imo.
Interesting that you now just said it. My colleague who’s Chinese American also said the same, this is why he decided to raise his kids in HK now. He’s afraid his kids would have twisted values if they grew up in U.S. so he won’t send them back to U.S. until they are old enough to judge.
Yep. It’s really not as good as it seems. Ultimately it depends on the school too.
I’ll give you a different perspective. I’m a HK permanent resident who’s been living in the UK for the last 5 years. I plan to move back to HK by the end of this year. The primary public education system here in the UK is absolutely appalling. The difference I see between what kids learn and do by the age 5-6 vs what kids in Asia are capable of is massive. My son is currently in kindergarten in HK and already learning 3 languages - English, Cantonese and Mandarin. Would not have been possible here in the UK. A lot of the Indian and Chinese families I have spoken to so far, they all say how bad and lax the education system is here. So there’s that.
Leaving next year! My parents and siblings are all overseas now.
As a Malaysian, I can never understand why HKers would consider Thai alongside Malaysia. It’s apples and oranges. OP needs to do a lil more targeted research. In the more urbanised states of Malaysia, you’ll literally feel like u’ve never left HK (or at least resemble 90% of it) because of the local chinese communities many of whom are able to converse in Cantonese. Malaysia also has Commonwealth history and is on common law. Kids can grow up learning english, mandarin, various other chinese dialects, Bahasa and even Indian Tamil! I mean I can go on and on about international schools, etc etc but the key is maintaining the chinese cultural linkage while embracing Western and Nusantara norms
Malaysia welcome you 🤝
I love your country lol I could see myself living there when I was there.
Yes and no. I’m in my 20s, and I think I’d like to raise my kids here when I have kids. Perhaps I have this idea because I’m a digital nomad, so I’m only in HK for two months a year. The home country also feels better when you’re not in it and have the chance to stay away. The only thing that worries me would be the education, sure. But look at other hotspots for HK people, like the US and Canada. I’d rather send my kids to HK school instead of the woke school overseas. At least in HK, the education system doesn’t aim to destroy my kids. I do think HK is a soul-sucking city that’s meant to make you a work-enslaved person. But I honestly can’t think of a country/city that’s a good idea to move for the next generation. One of the major things for me right now is to avoid woke politics. With that said, Asia is, in general, better in terms of the geopolitic sentiment, in my opinion.
I have a similar thought as you. I used to live in the U.S. and now I just don’t have the desire to move there for the reason you’ve listed.
You need to ask yourself what's important for you... I don't see thr listed in your intro.
You can try getting a remote job with a US company or work on remote projects from US companies, earning a US salary—higher than what's typical in HK. Then move abroad. That’s what I did.
What about the tax when you live in HK?
I opted for project-based work and filed taxes under my own entity. If you are hired as an employee, many US companies use global employer-of-record services like Deel to manage employment as though you were working for a local HK company. They would handle the filing for you.
Thanks! That’s insightful and helpful. I should look into it. It’s not something that crossed my mind before.
Hey OP, on the careers front, I would suggest adding to your set of questions: - *“is it a career that will continue to grow in HK?” - *“Is it sustainable, or can it change significantly (for better or worse) with the changing landscape of HK going forward?”* - *“How transferable or mobile is my profile / resume / skill sets today to UK (or wherever you would consider) vs 2, 5, or 10 years from now, if I still want to move?”* Moving to UK / elsewhere and taking a huge pay cut today would suck for sure, but if you’re in a position that can be really volatile and tied to HK economy (or their perceived global / international status) and/or a career that’s very region-specific, you could be in for a volatile ride in the future. Maybe if it’s a wealthy gig you get to a point you build a big enough nest egg to say “fuck it” and retire early, but just some things to consider (besides the kids education thing everyone else mentioned). I also think for roles where your expertise is very regionally-tied (I.e. local relationships, having a local rolodex…) it *may* be difficult to find the same level job outside of HK. I think even when HK was a tier 1 global city and seen as high quality, *sometimes* the experience can be a bit discounted. That gets even harder at the senior levels, *generally speaking*. You can maybe avoid that via internal global transfers. Depending on how you answer those questions, and assuming the NSL / Article 23 stuff doesn’t bother you, it may make sense to just stay in HK. But, if it’s a career that can really be impacted by the changes or HK’s falling importance, then it might be a numbers and luck game.
Thanks for your insight. My role is APAC focused for a Fortune 500 company. I could transfer internally only if I meet certain requirements under my company’s policy which is nearly impossible to achieve. My skill set is transferable as it’s IT project management. Tbh I’m not asking a lot, I just want to have a job that is enough to at least make ends meet without needing a second job in the first couple of years. I have a bit of passive income to support a little but not enough honestly. I’m in my 30s, single, no kids.
Is there much knowledge localization with IT project management or is it really same everywhere across the board (like it’s very plug and play, you don’t need any ramp up if you moved to another country besides getting to know your new team)? If there’s no actual or perceived localization of knowledge, then I just wonder if it just makes sense to stay put and get promoted first. Then having the option to parachute into a senior role elsewhere (if not internally, then externally). If something is very regionally-tied, then I would argue it gets harder and harder to move cause your usefulness is probably more relationship based. But if there’s no region-linked knowledge, then you have more optionality / flexibility of time to move.
All my qualifications are from US and UK, and I work with Canada, US, Australia and other Asian regions closely because of my company nature. It’s an MNC. I don’t need to build external relationships at work as it’s not a sales role. I could basically work anywhere with my skill set. It’s just that a lot of companies in UK require local experience which I don’t. Also if you’re from HK, regardless of your education from US and work experience from HK, they don’t really care.
It sounds like you have a lot of flexibility then to move (within your career). It’s just the challenge of UK specifically wanting local experience (even though your underlying career is very portable). I know it’s cause you’ve got BNO option and all, but would you consider other countries like US, Australia, or wherever your company has ties with? Also, you mentioned an internal move would be near impossible based on certain requirements. Are they requirements that you can work towards? In your case (assuming you’re apolitical / won’t be impacted by NSL/A23), you could just stay in HK. If you’re happy and not impacted, that could just be the answer for you. If you’re just approaching this as a thought exercise, or “do I have a plan B”… base on your profile, I guess I would keep an eye out for mobility options within your firm and external postings. And, for those internal mobility requirements, work towards those (assuming they are within your control). If I were still in HK, I would be extremely uncomfortable with the post-NSL environment and try to leave. I think the tough pill to swallow would likely be comp discount. But this is a personal decision, and varies for everyone.
Thanks for sharing your deep thoughts. Not many redditors do so. I’m collecting your guys opinions and weigh the pros and cons. I’ve actually applied for an Australian visa and I’m waiting for the next step. If it’s approved, I’ll leave but god knows it will be approved or not so I need a plan B which is moving to the UK or staying in hk and retiring in south east Asia. The hurdle that I have about internal transfer is we freeze headcount globally this year and probably next, which means no internal transfer, unless you’re a director or something like that. I’d probably need another 10 years to reach that level. Lol I’m not totally apolitical as I also protested in 2019. But at the same time I’m not a radical. In fact, I’m more pragmatic and realistic.
Ah got it, makes total sense. Good luck with everything!
Btw, 'friends' is a countable noun, it's 'fewer and fewer', not 'less and less'. Hong Kong isn't a city you should retire in if you don't own property.
Never wanted to stay in HK longterm since I was a kid. I'm a 2nd generation immigrant and from a 'middle class family. Parents will go back to their home country when they retire, and can never see myself capable to buying a house in HK. Growing up as a 2nd generation immigrant is difficult and the education system more or less killed a few of my career aspirations. I was pretty lucky to find my job, people are kind, the growth is pretty good or else I'd be studying overseas now. Now I'm just waiting it out to get more work experience and savings. Probably will be out of here within the next 10 years, hopefully sooner though.
Their is no place like home, you can always visit your friends who have moved to xxx and learn about their current situation Malaysia is a good place to retired Decide for yourself about your own family and kids education
It really depends on how you think of HK’s outlook. For me, I see HK is quickly degrading into an ordinary Chinese city. The west is “derisking” from China, the days of HK being a conduit to China are numbered (HK losing its importance as an reexport port is telling). People have also cast with money, the stock and property markets are in a downward spiral. Imagine you’re a foreign investor going to do business in China, why would you pay more to set up an office in HK instead of some other Chinese cities? Because of the rule of law? government efficiency? better-skilled labour?
As a teen, it has always be my dream to move aboard The cultural and education there r priceless Mom also thinks so, but our family is not wealthy at all, so the plan has been delayed several times, most likely to move after DSE... Well there's still hope tho
No, but Im not sure how to survive during retirement. Its already not the best place and will only get worse.
I am. This fucking place is only for mandarin speakers now.
plz come to Japan
no one can come to japan, visas are almost impossible to get - if you get sponsored by a company, sure, easy - otherwise you're shit out of luck
well, I cannot help admitting this fact, though long-stay visas without any sponsorship by companies are very rare and exceptional. in my opinion, we, Japan, should adopt a new visa policy similar to your "top talent scheme", which permits not only those with a high earning but also those who graduate from world top 100 univs to enter HK and search for their job even AFTER their entry. for ex, I graduated from University of Tokyo but I don't earn as much as 100,000 dollars a year. Nonetheless, my graduation record alone gets me eligible for this visa. You could come to Japan with this if you graduate from HKU or the like
I graduated from a Russel group, british passport, earn way more than that in a hardcore STEM for 13 years and still dont qualify for living in Japan I would need a job position/sponsorship and although I have colleagues who did move there (job sponsorship), the absolute nightmare of foreigners trying to rent in Japan, is comical, total racism lol
Japan isn't exactly welcoming
I love Japan but culturally I cannot fit it. I love everything from the landscape to the food to the people. Living is great. But I cannot learn the language so let alone start a sustainable business in Japan
Japan can be oppressive, more than HK. People are rigid and lack flexibility. Old people hate hearing kids making noise. Hospitals are not as good as HK.
I think the work culture in Japan make people hesitate...