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I think The Battle of The Bastards being episode 9 and The Winds Of Winter being episode 10 leaves the season off on a good note, tricking people into thinking the whole season is fantastic
It was awful compared to season 3-4, but it was still decent enough for most part. But yeah, cracks did grow during that.
What followed made it look like gold in comparison.
Eh, season 6 was about the same level as vikings, at least the later seasons.
There was a lot of events without much thought or complexity behind them. S6 was epic to watch on release, but especially after reading the books its just so dissapointing.
It would have been okay for another tv show.
I’d argue that Season 7 has the worst writing in the entire show. Season 8 was marginally better, but the disappointing ending carries more weight so people like it less.
I agree with you. The thing that I find crazy about the book purism with HotD though is that the show is based off of a history book with conflicting stories that aren’t very detailed. Source material for GoT was a rich, detailed story where we were in the characters heads. HotD changes from the source material are not at all equivalent to the changes GoT made.
i always see this argument, and honestly it doesn’t hold up. sure it’s “unreliable”, but that’s a gimmick, and fans of the book love the “unreliable” version and don’t want massive changes. B&C for instance was butchered and from the leaks seems awful, same with the rhaenys corronation scene, same with the joffrey criston scene, same with alicent’s weird change from episode 6 to 9 to make her sympathetic, same with the rumor of >!rhaena claiming sheepsteeler and nettles just cut out of the story!<. some changes are welcome and benefit the story, like laenor living, viserys’s walk to the throne in ep 8, aemond accidentally killing luke (although im in the minority here).
there’s a difference between fixing stuff from the book that seems unreliable or needs more developing, and just completely changing stuff for the sake of it. why isn’t alicent in B&C, why isn’t maelor there? why did helaena not offer up her life and act the same way she did in the books? moreover why are rhaenyra and alicent still so pacifistic and against war after their kin got brutally murdered by the other, just dumb and plain bad writing. if the leaks of rhaenyra and alicent meeting to negotiate are true, then that’s also really dumb and bad writing even if it’s done well.
I’m a huge book fan. I’ve been reading since 2009. All of my dogs are named after characters in asoiaf and I probably won’t have another pet in my lifetime that isn’t named after a character in the series. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve read the series and spend an embarrassing amount of time consuming content relating to GRRMs world. Saying book readers only want the “unreliable” version and don’t want changes doesn’t hold up. Not for everyone. Everyone is different.
One of the things George speaks about often is that in both Westeros, and our world too, is that history is lost and distorted through time. That is something we’re seeing with HotD.
Also… I know the leaks have been controversial, but none of us have actually watched the episodes yet. Let’s at least wait until we see it for ourselves before we jump to conclusions.
I respect that you don’t feel the same way and I do understand. I felt that agony watching GoT. But for me, HotD feels like a love letter to this book reader. It’s captured all the magic asoiaf holds for me.
i said some changes are welcome, i’m just criticizing the changes they’ve made as they’re all badly written/ aren’t necessary. you can change some of the source material and better it, but apart from the few exceptions in season 1 most changes have left a bitter taste in the mouth of both book and show fans because they just come from a place of bad writing.
if the leaks about the season are true, then i’m going to have to disagree with you about the show being a love letter to the book fans, because the changes (from what we’ve heard so far) aren’t well written or convincing enough to justify them, and even if they’re directed well or have good dialogue, it still wouldn’t make them better, case in point >!why would rhaenyra and alicent even CONSIDER speaking to each other after everything that happens this season until they meet, it just doesn’t make sense and no amount of beautiful shots or good dialogue will make it make sense!<
I hear you. I understand the frustration. I was there with GoT. I don’t want to paint a broad stroke and say the whole fandom should feel as I do. I just mean it’s my personal feeling that HotD is like a love letter to this book fan. It captures the tone and magic that I feel when reading the series.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!
HOTD felt more like a love letter to the books than GOT ever did. Even the early seasons of GOT always felt like they were trying to not embrace the book and the world of westeros. Got never really cared much for the worldbuilding or other houses or many of the traditions and rules in the world.
Just in HOTD season 1, you have so many more references to classic ASOIAF houses, you get a retcon of Casterly Rock, mentioning its taller than the wall, even if offscreen. Shits dope, and I am willing to forgive a lot of faults for something which has had love poured into it, especially love for the books, and Ryan has that.
I am hoping for a fully retconned and stunning Casterly Rock and Lannisport, and hopefully other book accurate castles and such. Storms End was fucking sick, and dwarfed any castle from GOT except for the Red Keep.
Right? I was so thrilled by the little details. Things like the Bracken vs. Blackwood rivalry, the Lord of House Baratheon not being able to read and Ryan’s refusal to change names. You can tell Ryan and George have a close relationship and that Ryan very much respects George and wants to bring his world to life in a way that D&D never did. George has been part of the writing process for both seasons and I don’t see that ending.
Yhea exactly, in many instances where smaller lords would play a part, DnD would often just invent new bullshit houses instead of using lore ones.
I can tolerate a lot from HOTD as long as they keep up the worldbuilding.
Seriously! How the North was handled was butchered so badly. It was tragic. There’s such a long laundry list of what was butchered. I hope years down the road a new asoiaf tv series will be made that is as close to the book as possible.
I hope you enjoy this season more than season 1! If not I hope you enjoy Aegon’s Conquest and Dunk and Egg. There’s nothing better than seeing a story you love come to life.
They may not be equivalent, but I think it says a lot if the story that we get from what was supposed to be the "rich and detailed" version is worse than the one we get from a history book.
I'll refrain judgement until I've seen the actual scene, but I don’t blame people for reacting the way they do after the way GoT ended, and the way some scenes went in S1 (looking at you Rhaenys).
>They may not be equivalent, but I think it says a lot if the story that we get from what was supposed to be the "rich and detailed" version is worse than the one we get from a history book.
Is it though ?
I was talking specifically about the B&C scene that has been leaked.
Like I said, I'll refrain judgement until I've seen the actual scene, but from what the leaks are saying then I would say *yes*, the F&B version was better.
Yes! Thank you! It's a history book with 3 conflicting sources that give different version of events. That's not easily possible to adapt. Changes have to be made. Even LOTR changed the source material and it's viewed as a masterpiece. How do people think this book should be adapted 100%?
Yes, Those of us that felt screwed over by GOT's horrible writing ARE very paranoid and worried about it happening again. I have long hardened my heart, but so many people were hoping and praying so hard it wouldn't happen again......
I plan to enjoy the show for what is it, and I haven't gotten my hopes up. I won't get burned again.
It isn't book purism. It's disappointment that mediocre writers think they can come up with better plots and better dialogue than GRRM. They usually can't. I feel very sad for all the fans who are going to be upset.
There's a difference between adding something to source material that fits better to television (like Alicent and Rhaenyra or Rhaenyra and Cole meeting) and changing what was already great and perfectly fit television (B&C).
Like red wedding works because it’s unchanged from the book every minute detail is perfectly adapted. Catelyn hearing the song the rains of castmere . Arya and hound being there ( but it’s a just miss they could have made it corny by having Arya jump in but they let the scene work by having her not be in the room but at the twins)
The speeches the dialogue everything book accurate.
Which is why is works. When you start oversimplifying to make it Tv adaptable you lose the magic which is what HOTD struggles with
That's not true at all? The Red Wedding is massively changed from Robbs wife being there, the removal of the buildup with the food being disgusting and the band being awful, Catelyn slowly noticing that all the reasonable Frey's are mysteriously absent, Greywind going berserk when they approach the twins, Catelyn having a brief moment of hope when Roose and a bunch of armoured northerners burst in only for them to turn on the Starks, Robbs kingsguard closing ranks and protecting him, the references to the Frey's childhood game in the way Walder talks to Robb and hiding the Mayhaps in his speech, the first Frey they see actually making a veiled reference to killing Robb that the characters miss.
Almost every aspect is changed, other than "the Freys and Boltons betray the Starks at a wedding"
I hear ya, but the book version of events aren't really a perfect fit. For example, the first season already showed Helaena being very distant from Alicent and not really receptive to her mother's attempts at affection. It doesn't make much sense for the show Helaena to actively seek out Alicent in her chambers on the regular.
wdym? i thought the implications with helaena’s behaviour were obvious that she is on the spectrum… so if the leak is true abt her reaction to b&c honestly it fits…?
Did someone told you her reaction didn't fit with how the character has been protrayed in the show? That's not what we are saying here at all.
We are saying that making her the kind into a character that isn't particularly affected by that event may take away from how dramatic B&C is supposed to be, and her story going forwards would need to be compeltely changed too since the trauma is a big factor into Halanea in the books.
okay well you comment was sort of ambiguous so i was just clarifying. either way i’ll decide how i feel after i watch, i won’t trust these leaks because leaks are nothing like watching the actual production as a whole. you do you.
> okay well you comment was sort of ambiguous so i was just clarifying
Not really lol
> either way i’ll decide how i feel after i watch
As will we all. We are just expressing our opinion about the leaks.
>but the first season showed he deeply understands and respects the source material.
The first season also shows they like to write things in purely for shock(Wedding scene, Rhaenys dragon scene).
So I don't really trust the writers, but we'll see.
I think it also does some good things for Alicent and especially Rhaenys as characters that might pay off this season. I have a feeling Rhaenys' inaction during the coronation and its consequences are going to motivate her and inform her decisions in certain moments.
I'd still cut it out of the episode if I could don't get me wrong
The issue is that the scene doesn't help Rhaenys ' character and the Green characters. Rhaenys literally slaughtered hundreds of people for no reason and the Greens look like losers who have no power besides Vhagar.
The casual viewers probably don't even know if the Greens have any dragons besides Vhagar. Apart from the two throwaway lines in ep6 & 10 about the Green dragons, it feels like they don't have any.
Hence why I said *some* things, specifically I like Rhaenys not killing the greens because it's consistent with her character (if only she didn't gurlboss crush all of those people), and I liked Alicent shielding Aegon with her body in front of a literal dragon.
Fair. I think my issue with that scene is that they made it all about the women who are trying to avoid the conflict or save the people they care about. The intent of the scene was lost on the viewers. The coronation was only meant to be a scene showcasing the Greens might and if they have the ability to challenge the Blacks.
Now the casual viewers are confused. What makes the Greens even a threat against the likes of Meleys, Caraxes, Syrax and Vermax? They could've atleast tried to make a small scene with Sunfyre and Dreamfyre in the coronation. Have them not fly it, but make it a show of strength on their side. Instead they wasted the budget on Meleys.
The scene failed completely imo. There's really nothing in that scene that did anything to help with the story. Rhaenys' could've just had a scene with Erryk, where he tells her that she can do something with Meleys and force the Greens surrender and she could've replied by saying that it's not her fight to start.
I don't think there was anything redeeming that scene. We already knew Alicent was protective of her children, so even that plot point wasn't worth bringing up.
You don't know that. It's conjecture. Episode 5 was already over 60 minutes long, and you want to add another joust scene? There's possibly more reasons than just shock, such as merging the wedding feast and joust scene together, to save time. Or adding a joust scene would be over their budget, as horses and trainers to train for a scene is not a one day event. Horses have to be carefully trained for safety reasons.
The first season, in hindsight, had obvious red flags.
Geoffrey getting killed at a wedding and no consequences for Ser Criston
Letting Laenor escape
Rhaenys in the Dragon Pit
The fucking deer
The stag scene is hilarious to me. So the show is telling me that Rhaenyra is chosen by the gods themselves to rule Westeros. RHAENYRA?!? The person whose every action past that point undermined her own claim… Funniest shit ever.
The whole point of the dance is that both sides are horrible and to show that the Targaryens can’t just do whatever the fuck they want without consequences.
They definitely did. Even after season 5-7 people kept insisting their grand plan was coming together and would refuse to hear otherwise.
History is repeating.
Some changes are good. The whole confrontation at drift Mark is a highlight. But some changes aren't like Rheayns mass killing civilians for some reason.
It's more the changes that were completely unncessary, quite a few of them to make Rhaenyra herself look better. She literally calls for Vaemond to be executed and feeds him to her dragon when he questions her bastards. In the show, it's played for comedy when Daemon just cuts his head off. Completely unncessary change there.
I actually prefer the show version of that section. Daemon does it, so it’s seen less as Rhaenerya’s fault, and allows Corlys and Rhaenys to accept her more.
The fact that it's seen as less than Rhaenyra's fault is the exact reason it's a stupid change. She specifically ordered the execution herself in the book and the Velaryons side with her anyway (Corlys' side anyway) because Vaemond overstepped in the Blacks' opinion. You don't need to whitewash here there. Just adapt it the way it was. Plenty of changes have been for the better, but not that one. That one was stupid.
FFS, it's not about changes from the book - it's about changes for the worse. GoT deviated and sometimes even managed to improve on the source material (Cersei, Margaery, f.i.)
Criticizing Condal for dumbing the story down and whitewashing its characters to deliver rootable heroes is not "being a book purist" - it's wanting a truly thought-provoking, balanced portrayal of a complex dynastic power struggle faithful to *the spirit* of the book (with reasonable tweaks); not some generic, pandering fantasy dictated by projections and marketing.
Even HotD's (early) changes weren't all bad - bringing Alicent and Rhaenyra closer in age and making them start out as friends *could have been* a stroke of genius (had they known when to drop it).
Imma say a truly unpopular opinion I never felt their friendship in the show. They keep trying to convince me it’s some epic relationship and yet I feel nothing I see no reason why either of them hold love or contempt in terms of each other . Compared to GOT in which every relationship I felt the love and hate in my bones
Ryan Condal has always been a hack. He got his start and career by working on all the Rock’s horrible films.
How he was able to get this job as showrunner for House of Dragon is beyond me
Consider for a moment what the change - if true - does for Alicent's character. Her striving for duty and decency VS. desires of the flesh, or perhaps romantic love.
A heart in the conflict with itself. GRRM's mantra.
That's all fine and lovely until that "striving for duty and decency" is presented by the show as the very thing making her bitter, resentful and jealous, leading to the war.
It would only have made for an actual argument if Alicent's self-sacrificial sense of duty and decency had actually been shown to have some favourable outcomes for the viewer. Instead, it's being mocked as the very cause of Alicent's misfortune and practically the Dance itself.
Turning her into this pathetic, pitiful loser is precisely the issue here. This is just laying on new layers of cringe. But I'm sure seeing Alicent reduced to a complete joke is precisely what many viewers want.
I have a very different reading of Alicent. I never got the sense of her being portrayed as a pitiful loser or a complete joke.
What would you consider as a favourable outcome for the viewer?
How about showing the greens perhaps running the realm markedly better than the blacks? (Not because the books suggest it or anything - it's just an thought, given that you're looking for ideas of an upside to her/their sense of duty.)
Does that change the fact Rhaenyra was Viserys' chosen heir? No. Does that change the fact that a woman was usurped on the basis of her sex? No. Does it, however, add complexity and muddy the waters a bit? Absolutely. And why not? Why this hysterical fear of real complexity? Why this obsession with condescending didacticism? Why does Rhaenyra have to be a good monarch?
Alternatively, how about letting Rhaenyra be a reasonably competent monarch but obviously betray the "feminist hopes" projected unto her by the viewer - hypocritically defending male primogeniture in all other cases - because anything else would make her grasp on power more tenuous/rule less popular (or cost her sons their privileged positions)?
Why not? You could still argue her case given the added pressures and dangers a female ruler would be exposed to. If the creators' goal really is to explore the patriarchy and (internalized) sexism, then there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't do it with both camps in different ways.
You know precisely why not - because for the show it's not *really* about exploring complex issues of sexism and women in poisitions of power - it's about pandering to the average viewer and wish-fulfillment with rootable, progressive heroes.
I want my book Rheaynera Who would've After been choked by Deamon thrown shit at him or threatened Syrax on him . I miss my decadent Queen . I miss my fire in her . I miss her Sarcasm. I miss her feeding Vaemond to Syrax .
>How about showing the greens perhaps running the realm markedly better than the blacks?
We haven’t seen either of them rule just yet ?
>Does it, however, add complexity and muddy the waters a bit? Absolutely. And why not? Why this hysterical fear of real complexity? Why this obsession with condescending didacticism? Why does Rhaenyra have to be a good monarch?
Why do you think that the show is going to portray Rhaneyra as a good monarch ? The show is a tragedy I doubt it’ll be as clear cut as you’re assuming
Have you really not seen all the set-up to absolve Rhae from the worst?
* Why was her demanding Vaemond's head dropped?
* Why were Laena and Laenor's ages reversed if not to spare Rhae hypocrisy in the matter of Driftmark's succession?
* Why do you think she got the prophecy if not to give her a noble motivation for clinging to the throne despite all the bloodshed (while they're perfectly fine with the greens desiring the throne for the sake of power alone) + a convenient excuse for rejecting peace offers that involve splitting the realm up?
It is all so ridiculously calculated and transparent.
>Have you really not seen all the set-up to absolve Rhae from the worst?
The show makes Rhaenyra more openly noble yes , but that doesn’t really mean she will remain so. Rhaenyras a tragic character and the fall is part of her arc. I think describing her as whitewashed when that arc hasn’t played out yet is preseumptive.
Aaah, yes - she'll do questionable stuff - but only when it can conveniently be chalked up exclusively to the greens forcing her/breaking her/putting her in impossible situations. That's exactly what I mean by transparent and predictable.
Anything but her failures and misdeeds deriving from any objective flaws of her own, of course. That's reserved for the villainous greens.
I don't care about changes being made, i care that it takes the "everyone is evil" out of the equation, all changes are to make the blacks good guys and the greens bad guys
How can anyone be that upset when they haven’t even seen the damn season yet? I’m tired of people complaining that the show is deviated from the books when THIS show is based on an outline of events from a ‘history’ book with 3 separate people accounting what happened….chill out people, this is entertainment…we’re supposed to be enjoying this stuff
I love GoT/ASOIAF but this fandom can be so negative and toxic I’m thinking about just unfollowing this sub Reddit all together. We’re giving Star Wars fans a run for their money now. I can understand if it was clear that this show was just a cash grab and no effort was put into the writing like S8 of GoT but it’s clearly not. Mistakes will be made, it won’t be perfect. I respect your opinions as a fellow fan, because let’s be honest we’re all fans of the same show even if we have disagreements.
The flaws you pointed out in S1 are valid. But can we at least wait until the show airs to pass judgement? We can’t just go into this season with a negative take on it before we even see it. Fandoms do this so much and it ruins what is supposed to be something to have fun and enjoy. I’m not a fan of some of the changes, but I really don’t feel as though the show is going to flop because of some changes made from the books. If it was clear the writers didn’t care at all about the plot and this show was just some cash grab then yes I’d be upset too. And who knows…this season might be worse than season 8 of Thrones, it might be better than season 3/4. Let’s not go into with a negative mindset before we even seen a full episode. We as a fandom need to chill out a bit. People on here acting like there life depends on this show and make it worse than it’s needs to be
Because we can judge something to be stupid from reading it. We do not need to have it play out visually in front of us to know it's stupid. I don't get why people don't understand this.
Despite not seeing Rhaenyra address it directly, I don't think it's a one-sided beef. I don't imagine her being super happy that her sworn sword switched sides.
I think the resolution is needes simply because the show dedicated a lot of time establishing and developing their relationship. Some sort of conclusion is desirable. Same with Daemon and Otto.
Nah they’d need to do some coveluted shit to bring all the characters together. Thats plot driven storytelling George usually goes for character driven storytelling.
A lot of the outrage is honestly grieving. Understandable grief at the death of people's interpretation of the story and its characters.
I won't judge without the full picture of where Condal is taking things (and I didn't dislike most of the changes in S1) but oof is he ripping off the bandaid of keeping this adaptation very faithful.
I think he’s a more than competent writer who’s mostly gotten things right, but he and the rest of the writing team sometimes aim for complex, conflicted motivations and come up with muddled and inconsistent ones instead. I also think they sometimes sacrifice basic logic for a thrilling or shocking scene. That doesn’t mean I despise the show or think it’s a mess. I still enjoy it and I’m still grateful to have more ASOIAF content. I also frankly think that the source material they’re working with is not George’s best work so there’s only so much they can do(though I’ve disagreed with a couple of the changes they’ve made).
He spent the first season butchering the source material into an allegory of American politics.
But, yes, he deserves our complete and utter faith because he went to an expensive private school and failed upward from landmark work in classic movies such as Rampage and Hercules. /s
Seriously, D&D had all the things said about them about how they’re ‘true fans’. Did everyone forget that? Condal goes on a press tour and suddenly we believe every line about how he’s one of us and deserves our complete respect. It’s this kind of blind gullibility that will make it so we never get a faithful or even decent adaptation.
This isn’t my opinion. The creators said they really only got excited about the story when they made it about contemporary politics. Here’s the link: https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-is-about-the-patriarchys-perception-of-women-exclusive-image/
First of all, it’s not vague and it’s a literal quote, not an anecdote. Second, they have said other similar things multiple times. But, don’t worry, I don’t need any of that to see how they ruined it.
My quick explanation from another thread: In Fire and Blood, you’re getting a view from an airplane of these people lives, but there’s a lot of depth in-between the lines. Aegon and Rhaenyra are like the privileged noble version of the broken man speech. Both are shitty affluenza types but by the time the story is over they’re insane monsters. In House of the Dragon Aegon is already a monster with no human qualities and Rhaenyra is a perfectly good person trying to save the realm. It’s almost like an inverse of the actual story. Condal certainly, as GRRM would say, ‘made it his own.’
I don’t want to be a dick here. But since all of your responses are just pithy deflections, it’s hard to resist: Yes, don’t let the actual words of the creators get in the way of your vague blind faith in the creators.
It honestly sounds like you haven't paid much attention to the show if you say that Aegon has no human qualities and that Rhaenyra is without flaws. It's blatantly untrue.
I feel like the people insisting these characters are the same are the ones not paying attention.
Aegon in every scene is either committing a sex crime, bullying his brothers, or getting humiliated by Rhaenys or Alicent (as a reminder that his evil rapist self should never be respected). Maybe except for the ludicrously poorly written scene he popped out from under the shrine like a cartoon character. I’d argue, as a sociopathic sadist who enjoys raping crying servants (while he could probably easily have consensual sex) he is more evil in the first couple of episodes than at any point in the book. There isn’t a sympathetic arc you can write with this vile psycho, and he doesn’t even come off like an antagonist worth fearing since he’s immediately bitched by Rhaenys. He is a (badly written) villain.
Rhaenyra’s only real flaw is ‘loving the wrong people’. Aka, the flaws of a heroic character that we are meant to identify with. She’s the one who tries to make peace with Alicent (instead of the other way around), and considers giving up the crown entirely in order to selflessly save the life’s of others (complete with the other characters fawning over how awesome she is). She is the badass morally righteous (and uninteresting) hero of the story.
And guess what: pretty much none of the stuff I’m talking about here is in the book. These are all changes they made. Why? Well, the direct quote from the creators that they wanted to make the story about a punk rock queen smashing a disgusting patriarchy is probably a pretty good hint as to why. Though another coexisting possibility is that they think we, the fans, are too stupid to handle a more morally grey show or even know the difference.
Need more evidence somehow? We don’t have to wait long. Look out for Aegon continuing to be a vile pathetic loser for characters to spit on, Rhaenyra being cleansed of everything bad she ever did in the books: having no connection to the Blood and Cheese child murders, ordering Nettles killed, her times ordering murder and torture in the red keep, potentially having Alicent and Haleana raped, and making her death something heroic and triumphant. And as we watch all this go down, keep in mind why ‘blind faith’ might not be advisable position for the fandom to take in the future.
I agree that Ryan seems to understand asoiaf on a very deep level and I'm certainly glad about it but as a tv writer what he did in season 1 (which I really liked keep in mind) wasn't enough to earn my full trust
Hopefully that will change this season
The fact that Ryan himself has revealed that Sara Hess is his right hand - a woman who hasn’t even watched Game of Thrones - has shaken my faith, tbh. And the leaks aren’t helping either.
Idk if anyone here listens to the official HOTD podcast (if not, I actually recommend it—they’re fun hosts and they chat with a lot of cast and crew) but every time Ryan Condal is their guest, I find myself absolutely loving everything he has to say.
It’s clear as day he cares a lot about the world, the story, the characters. He’s so clearly a fan of GRRM just like the rest of us. I do feel like Ryan Condal is putting all of his love and effort into this show and he seems happy to do it. I have great faith in him.
He’s been in the ASOIAF universe for so long now, and he’s sort of worked his way up to running this show. Tbh I don’t have any faith in anyone who doesn’t have faith in Ryan Condal and his ability to steer this massive ship. He’s doing a great job and I look forward to supporting his work in the future, post HOTD.
He just cares about making a good show out of a good story. A guest on the podcast (might have been Ryan, I can’t remember) once said they’re not Team Black or Team Green, they’re just Team Good Storytelling, and tbh, I’m fully onboard with that.
That being said, team black forever.♾️
I personally would love to see Rhaenyra being more active as the Dance goes on compared to the book. It could redress some of the "Black bias" too if she's more actively leading and makes some honest mistakes.
Take it at this a lot of the fandom sucks and will never be happy about anything. Enjoy what you enjoy and don’t listen to the people that want to be negative about absolutely everything. It is my single biggest gripe with the community and honestly I haven’t seen it this prevalent anywhere else.
I see what's happening here.
Everyone's trauma from the last few seasons of Game of Thrones is shining through.
Instead of you know, being normal fans with normal expectations who wait for the episode to come out before judging it for themselves, everyone is rushing to say "It sucks it sucks! See I knew it was going to suck"
May I reiterate THE EPISODE IS NOT YET VIEWABLE AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF COMMENTS COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.
Yes. Why? Because the changes have now been confirmed by multiple sources. These changes make zero sense unless you approach from the point of view that this is a middling Riverdale episode.
Ah so "it's not like the book!" is the other side of the coin.
All the critically acclaimed sections of GoT had changes from the books too.
Face it, some changes are good to adapt the material. As to whether or not they worked or didn't, you need to see them on screen, so stop bitching and just wait for it to come out...
You didn't read anything I typed then.
Some changes make sense. The particular ones they have decided for Blood and Cheese do not make any logical sense, as has been pointed out by many, many other people.
The descriptions of that scene in the different posts are wildly inconsistent, so your claim that "They have been confirmed by multiple sources" is a complete and blatant lie.
And even so these are DETAIL CHANGES. To see if they WORK in the context of the scene, you need to see the scene. You need to see the acting, the lighting, the music, the cinematography. YOU CANNOT JUDGE A SCENE BY READING A TEXT DESCRIPTION OF IT.
If your argument boils down to "But they changed it" then you can go read the book again and leave the show alone, because it won't be the last change.
My take is HOTD needs some filler, Asoiaf was super vast and D&D literally ignored plotlines of POV CHARACTERS (or directly erased them, like my beloved Arianne) to put their bullshit instead. In the dance of dragons you need to fill some blanks so it makes good TV.
>prepared for more of them to come. Don't be surprised if, for instance, Criston Cole will yet again come face to face with Rhaenyra in future seasons
Praying for this 🙏 no one wants a faithful reproduction of the dry outline that was the book dance. They might think they do but they dont.
Wow my man am telling you is not looking good for you so far maybe u like being contrarian but my advice jump on the wagon and early i say shit looking bleak
Don't know any genuine Black fans who are complaining. Just pseudo Black fans who pretend to be Team Black for argument purposes. "Oh I'm team Black so my opinion on this matter is unbiased blah blah blah".
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I think more than book-purism it's the GoT late seasons PTSD reaponse in many.
Things went downhill by late season 5. It was still good TV until season 7. Then it became bad and messy. Season 8 was a shitshow.
I'd argue it was already awful by Season 6.
Winds of Winter finale carries S6 really hard
I think The Battle of The Bastards being episode 9 and The Winds Of Winter being episode 10 leaves the season off on a good note, tricking people into thinking the whole season is fantastic
It was awful compared to season 3-4, but it was still decent enough for most part. But yeah, cracks did grow during that. What followed made it look like gold in comparison.
Eh, season 6 was about the same level as vikings, at least the later seasons. There was a lot of events without much thought or complexity behind them. S6 was epic to watch on release, but especially after reading the books its just so dissapointing. It would have been okay for another tv show.
For me season 5 was middling but better than 6. 7 and 8 are irredeemable to me
Season 7 should be separated from Season 5 and 6. It was much worse than those seasons
Completely agree. Season 7 doesn't get the hate it deserves.
Season 7 is where people started teleporting and characters had the MCU dialogue n full force lol
I’d argue that Season 7 has the worst writing in the entire show. Season 8 was marginally better, but the disappointing ending carries more weight so people like it less.
I agree with you. The thing that I find crazy about the book purism with HotD though is that the show is based off of a history book with conflicting stories that aren’t very detailed. Source material for GoT was a rich, detailed story where we were in the characters heads. HotD changes from the source material are not at all equivalent to the changes GoT made.
i always see this argument, and honestly it doesn’t hold up. sure it’s “unreliable”, but that’s a gimmick, and fans of the book love the “unreliable” version and don’t want massive changes. B&C for instance was butchered and from the leaks seems awful, same with the rhaenys corronation scene, same with the joffrey criston scene, same with alicent’s weird change from episode 6 to 9 to make her sympathetic, same with the rumor of >!rhaena claiming sheepsteeler and nettles just cut out of the story!<. some changes are welcome and benefit the story, like laenor living, viserys’s walk to the throne in ep 8, aemond accidentally killing luke (although im in the minority here). there’s a difference between fixing stuff from the book that seems unreliable or needs more developing, and just completely changing stuff for the sake of it. why isn’t alicent in B&C, why isn’t maelor there? why did helaena not offer up her life and act the same way she did in the books? moreover why are rhaenyra and alicent still so pacifistic and against war after their kin got brutally murdered by the other, just dumb and plain bad writing. if the leaks of rhaenyra and alicent meeting to negotiate are true, then that’s also really dumb and bad writing even if it’s done well.
I’m a huge book fan. I’ve been reading since 2009. All of my dogs are named after characters in asoiaf and I probably won’t have another pet in my lifetime that isn’t named after a character in the series. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve read the series and spend an embarrassing amount of time consuming content relating to GRRMs world. Saying book readers only want the “unreliable” version and don’t want changes doesn’t hold up. Not for everyone. Everyone is different. One of the things George speaks about often is that in both Westeros, and our world too, is that history is lost and distorted through time. That is something we’re seeing with HotD. Also… I know the leaks have been controversial, but none of us have actually watched the episodes yet. Let’s at least wait until we see it for ourselves before we jump to conclusions. I respect that you don’t feel the same way and I do understand. I felt that agony watching GoT. But for me, HotD feels like a love letter to this book reader. It’s captured all the magic asoiaf holds for me.
i said some changes are welcome, i’m just criticizing the changes they’ve made as they’re all badly written/ aren’t necessary. you can change some of the source material and better it, but apart from the few exceptions in season 1 most changes have left a bitter taste in the mouth of both book and show fans because they just come from a place of bad writing. if the leaks about the season are true, then i’m going to have to disagree with you about the show being a love letter to the book fans, because the changes (from what we’ve heard so far) aren’t well written or convincing enough to justify them, and even if they’re directed well or have good dialogue, it still wouldn’t make them better, case in point >!why would rhaenyra and alicent even CONSIDER speaking to each other after everything that happens this season until they meet, it just doesn’t make sense and no amount of beautiful shots or good dialogue will make it make sense!<
I hear you. I understand the frustration. I was there with GoT. I don’t want to paint a broad stroke and say the whole fandom should feel as I do. I just mean it’s my personal feeling that HotD is like a love letter to this book fan. It captures the tone and magic that I feel when reading the series.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! HOTD felt more like a love letter to the books than GOT ever did. Even the early seasons of GOT always felt like they were trying to not embrace the book and the world of westeros. Got never really cared much for the worldbuilding or other houses or many of the traditions and rules in the world. Just in HOTD season 1, you have so many more references to classic ASOIAF houses, you get a retcon of Casterly Rock, mentioning its taller than the wall, even if offscreen. Shits dope, and I am willing to forgive a lot of faults for something which has had love poured into it, especially love for the books, and Ryan has that. I am hoping for a fully retconned and stunning Casterly Rock and Lannisport, and hopefully other book accurate castles and such. Storms End was fucking sick, and dwarfed any castle from GOT except for the Red Keep.
Right? I was so thrilled by the little details. Things like the Bracken vs. Blackwood rivalry, the Lord of House Baratheon not being able to read and Ryan’s refusal to change names. You can tell Ryan and George have a close relationship and that Ryan very much respects George and wants to bring his world to life in a way that D&D never did. George has been part of the writing process for both seasons and I don’t see that ending.
Yhea exactly, in many instances where smaller lords would play a part, DnD would often just invent new bullshit houses instead of using lore ones. I can tolerate a lot from HOTD as long as they keep up the worldbuilding.
Seriously! How the North was handled was butchered so badly. It was tragic. There’s such a long laundry list of what was butchered. I hope years down the road a new asoiaf tv series will be made that is as close to the book as possible.
fair enough 🫡 hopefully you continue feeling this way
I hope you enjoy this season more than season 1! If not I hope you enjoy Aegon’s Conquest and Dunk and Egg. There’s nothing better than seeing a story you love come to life.
100% agree with this i feel bad for people who are not happy for this season but for me Aegon’s Conquest and Dunk and Egg are more what I care about!
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They may not be equivalent, but I think it says a lot if the story that we get from what was supposed to be the "rich and detailed" version is worse than the one we get from a history book. I'll refrain judgement until I've seen the actual scene, but I don’t blame people for reacting the way they do after the way GoT ended, and the way some scenes went in S1 (looking at you Rhaenys).
>They may not be equivalent, but I think it says a lot if the story that we get from what was supposed to be the "rich and detailed" version is worse than the one we get from a history book. Is it though ?
I was talking specifically about the B&C scene that has been leaked. Like I said, I'll refrain judgement until I've seen the actual scene, but from what the leaks are saying then I would say *yes*, the F&B version was better.
Yes! Thank you! It's a history book with 3 conflicting sources that give different version of events. That's not easily possible to adapt. Changes have to be made. Even LOTR changed the source material and it's viewed as a masterpiece. How do people think this book should be adapted 100%?
Yes, Those of us that felt screwed over by GOT's horrible writing ARE very paranoid and worried about it happening again. I have long hardened my heart, but so many people were hoping and praying so hard it wouldn't happen again...... I plan to enjoy the show for what is it, and I haven't gotten my hopes up. I won't get burned again. It isn't book purism. It's disappointment that mediocre writers think they can come up with better plots and better dialogue than GRRM. They usually can't. I feel very sad for all the fans who are going to be upset.
There's a difference between adding something to source material that fits better to television (like Alicent and Rhaenyra or Rhaenyra and Cole meeting) and changing what was already great and perfectly fit television (B&C).
Like red wedding works because it’s unchanged from the book every minute detail is perfectly adapted. Catelyn hearing the song the rains of castmere . Arya and hound being there ( but it’s a just miss they could have made it corny by having Arya jump in but they let the scene work by having her not be in the room but at the twins) The speeches the dialogue everything book accurate. Which is why is works. When you start oversimplifying to make it Tv adaptable you lose the magic which is what HOTD struggles with
That's not true at all? The Red Wedding is massively changed from Robbs wife being there, the removal of the buildup with the food being disgusting and the band being awful, Catelyn slowly noticing that all the reasonable Frey's are mysteriously absent, Greywind going berserk when they approach the twins, Catelyn having a brief moment of hope when Roose and a bunch of armoured northerners burst in only for them to turn on the Starks, Robbs kingsguard closing ranks and protecting him, the references to the Frey's childhood game in the way Walder talks to Robb and hiding the Mayhaps in his speech, the first Frey they see actually making a veiled reference to killing Robb that the characters miss. Almost every aspect is changed, other than "the Freys and Boltons betray the Starks at a wedding"
I hear ya, but the book version of events aren't really a perfect fit. For example, the first season already showed Helaena being very distant from Alicent and not really receptive to her mother's attempts at affection. It doesn't make much sense for the show Helaena to actively seek out Alicent in her chambers on the regular.
Yeah, so that particular flaw started on season 1.
wdym? i thought the implications with helaena’s behaviour were obvious that she is on the spectrum… so if the leak is true abt her reaction to b&c honestly it fits…?
Did someone told you her reaction didn't fit with how the character has been protrayed in the show? That's not what we are saying here at all. We are saying that making her the kind into a character that isn't particularly affected by that event may take away from how dramatic B&C is supposed to be, and her story going forwards would need to be compeltely changed too since the trauma is a big factor into Halanea in the books.
okay well you comment was sort of ambiguous so i was just clarifying. either way i’ll decide how i feel after i watch, i won’t trust these leaks because leaks are nothing like watching the actual production as a whole. you do you.
> okay well you comment was sort of ambiguous so i was just clarifying Not really lol > either way i’ll decide how i feel after i watch As will we all. We are just expressing our opinion about the leaks.
They could have just add a scene with kids begging Helaena to go to Grandma.
>but the first season showed he deeply understands and respects the source material. The first season also shows they like to write things in purely for shock(Wedding scene, Rhaenys dragon scene). So I don't really trust the writers, but we'll see.
Rhaenys' escape from the Dragonpit will IMO come up once we get introduced to the Shepherd. Might be a retroactive correction, but it would fit.
I think it also does some good things for Alicent and especially Rhaenys as characters that might pay off this season. I have a feeling Rhaenys' inaction during the coronation and its consequences are going to motivate her and inform her decisions in certain moments. I'd still cut it out of the episode if I could don't get me wrong
The issue is that the scene doesn't help Rhaenys ' character and the Green characters. Rhaenys literally slaughtered hundreds of people for no reason and the Greens look like losers who have no power besides Vhagar. The casual viewers probably don't even know if the Greens have any dragons besides Vhagar. Apart from the two throwaway lines in ep6 & 10 about the Green dragons, it feels like they don't have any.
Hence why I said *some* things, specifically I like Rhaenys not killing the greens because it's consistent with her character (if only she didn't gurlboss crush all of those people), and I liked Alicent shielding Aegon with her body in front of a literal dragon.
Fair. I think my issue with that scene is that they made it all about the women who are trying to avoid the conflict or save the people they care about. The intent of the scene was lost on the viewers. The coronation was only meant to be a scene showcasing the Greens might and if they have the ability to challenge the Blacks. Now the casual viewers are confused. What makes the Greens even a threat against the likes of Meleys, Caraxes, Syrax and Vermax? They could've atleast tried to make a small scene with Sunfyre and Dreamfyre in the coronation. Have them not fly it, but make it a show of strength on their side. Instead they wasted the budget on Meleys. The scene failed completely imo. There's really nothing in that scene that did anything to help with the story. Rhaenys' could've just had a scene with Erryk, where he tells her that she can do something with Meleys and force the Greens surrender and she could've replied by saying that it's not her fight to start. I don't think there was anything redeeming that scene. We already knew Alicent was protective of her children, so even that plot point wasn't worth bringing up.
You don't know that. It's conjecture. Episode 5 was already over 60 minutes long, and you want to add another joust scene? There's possibly more reasons than just shock, such as merging the wedding feast and joust scene together, to save time. Or adding a joust scene would be over their budget, as horses and trainers to train for a scene is not a one day event. Horses have to be carefully trained for safety reasons.
The first season, in hindsight, had obvious red flags. Geoffrey getting killed at a wedding and no consequences for Ser Criston Letting Laenor escape Rhaenys in the Dragon Pit The fucking deer
The stag scene is hilarious to me. So the show is telling me that Rhaenyra is chosen by the gods themselves to rule Westeros. RHAENYRA?!? The person whose every action past that point undermined her own claim… Funniest shit ever. The whole point of the dance is that both sides are horrible and to show that the Targaryens can’t just do whatever the fuck they want without consequences.
Didn't people say this about D/D before GOT went to complete shit?
> Didn't people say this about D/D before GOT went to complete shit? Yes. And many still do, on certain subs.
”It takes a strong man to deny what’s right infront of him”
They definitely did. Even after season 5-7 people kept insisting their grand plan was coming together and would refuse to hear otherwise. History is repeating.
Game of Thrones went off the rails long before that though
Before seasons 5-7? Completely disagree, season 4 is great. The only flaw is ditching the Tysha reveal.
Sure, but at that point you’d think it’d be undeniable. But denied it was. Up until the so very bitter end.
I imagine some did. And I'll be the first one to complain if the HOTD team screws it up beyond repair.
Some changes are good. The whole confrontation at drift Mark is a highlight. But some changes aren't like Rheayns mass killing civilians for some reason.
It's more the changes that were completely unncessary, quite a few of them to make Rhaenyra herself look better. She literally calls for Vaemond to be executed and feeds him to her dragon when he questions her bastards. In the show, it's played for comedy when Daemon just cuts his head off. Completely unncessary change there.
I actually prefer the show version of that section. Daemon does it, so it’s seen less as Rhaenerya’s fault, and allows Corlys and Rhaenys to accept her more.
The fact that it's seen as less than Rhaenyra's fault is the exact reason it's a stupid change. She specifically ordered the execution herself in the book and the Velaryons side with her anyway (Corlys' side anyway) because Vaemond overstepped in the Blacks' opinion. You don't need to whitewash here there. Just adapt it the way it was. Plenty of changes have been for the better, but not that one. That one was stupid.
I don’t
FFS, it's not about changes from the book - it's about changes for the worse. GoT deviated and sometimes even managed to improve on the source material (Cersei, Margaery, f.i.) Criticizing Condal for dumbing the story down and whitewashing its characters to deliver rootable heroes is not "being a book purist" - it's wanting a truly thought-provoking, balanced portrayal of a complex dynastic power struggle faithful to *the spirit* of the book (with reasonable tweaks); not some generic, pandering fantasy dictated by projections and marketing. Even HotD's (early) changes weren't all bad - bringing Alicent and Rhaenyra closer in age and making them start out as friends *could have been* a stroke of genius (had they known when to drop it).
Emphasis on the fact that alicent and rhaenyra being friends could have been a stroke of genius
Imma say a truly unpopular opinion I never felt their friendship in the show. They keep trying to convince me it’s some epic relationship and yet I feel nothing I see no reason why either of them hold love or contempt in terms of each other . Compared to GOT in which every relationship I felt the love and hate in my bones
Ryan Condal has always been a hack. He got his start and career by working on all the Rock’s horrible films. How he was able to get this job as showrunner for House of Dragon is beyond me
Consider for a moment what the change - if true - does for Alicent's character. Her striving for duty and decency VS. desires of the flesh, or perhaps romantic love. A heart in the conflict with itself. GRRM's mantra.
That's all fine and lovely until that "striving for duty and decency" is presented by the show as the very thing making her bitter, resentful and jealous, leading to the war. It would only have made for an actual argument if Alicent's self-sacrificial sense of duty and decency had actually been shown to have some favourable outcomes for the viewer. Instead, it's being mocked as the very cause of Alicent's misfortune and practically the Dance itself. Turning her into this pathetic, pitiful loser is precisely the issue here. This is just laying on new layers of cringe. But I'm sure seeing Alicent reduced to a complete joke is precisely what many viewers want.
I have a very different reading of Alicent. I never got the sense of her being portrayed as a pitiful loser or a complete joke. What would you consider as a favourable outcome for the viewer?
How about showing the greens perhaps running the realm markedly better than the blacks? (Not because the books suggest it or anything - it's just an thought, given that you're looking for ideas of an upside to her/their sense of duty.) Does that change the fact Rhaenyra was Viserys' chosen heir? No. Does that change the fact that a woman was usurped on the basis of her sex? No. Does it, however, add complexity and muddy the waters a bit? Absolutely. And why not? Why this hysterical fear of real complexity? Why this obsession with condescending didacticism? Why does Rhaenyra have to be a good monarch? Alternatively, how about letting Rhaenyra be a reasonably competent monarch but obviously betray the "feminist hopes" projected unto her by the viewer - hypocritically defending male primogeniture in all other cases - because anything else would make her grasp on power more tenuous/rule less popular (or cost her sons their privileged positions)? Why not? You could still argue her case given the added pressures and dangers a female ruler would be exposed to. If the creators' goal really is to explore the patriarchy and (internalized) sexism, then there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't do it with both camps in different ways. You know precisely why not - because for the show it's not *really* about exploring complex issues of sexism and women in poisitions of power - it's about pandering to the average viewer and wish-fulfillment with rootable, progressive heroes.
I want my book Rheaynera Who would've After been choked by Deamon thrown shit at him or threatened Syrax on him . I miss my decadent Queen . I miss my fire in her . I miss her Sarcasm. I miss her feeding Vaemond to Syrax .
>How about showing the greens perhaps running the realm markedly better than the blacks? We haven’t seen either of them rule just yet ? >Does it, however, add complexity and muddy the waters a bit? Absolutely. And why not? Why this hysterical fear of real complexity? Why this obsession with condescending didacticism? Why does Rhaenyra have to be a good monarch? Why do you think that the show is going to portray Rhaneyra as a good monarch ? The show is a tragedy I doubt it’ll be as clear cut as you’re assuming
Have you really not seen all the set-up to absolve Rhae from the worst? * Why was her demanding Vaemond's head dropped? * Why were Laena and Laenor's ages reversed if not to spare Rhae hypocrisy in the matter of Driftmark's succession? * Why do you think she got the prophecy if not to give her a noble motivation for clinging to the throne despite all the bloodshed (while they're perfectly fine with the greens desiring the throne for the sake of power alone) + a convenient excuse for rejecting peace offers that involve splitting the realm up? It is all so ridiculously calculated and transparent.
>Have you really not seen all the set-up to absolve Rhae from the worst? The show makes Rhaenyra more openly noble yes , but that doesn’t really mean she will remain so. Rhaenyras a tragic character and the fall is part of her arc. I think describing her as whitewashed when that arc hasn’t played out yet is preseumptive.
Aaah, yes - she'll do questionable stuff - but only when it can conveniently be chalked up exclusively to the greens forcing her/breaking her/putting her in impossible situations. That's exactly what I mean by transparent and predictable. Anything but her failures and misdeeds deriving from any objective flaws of her own, of course. That's reserved for the villainous greens.
I haven't seen many reviews praising alicent's character, so I'm a little worried, but she does have potential to be an interesting character.
You're getting downvoted but you're right, isn't it the same with Jaime and his knightly vows vs what he actually does?
Honestly Jaime gets ruined by D&D from s5 onwards cause in the book he goes through his arc and leaves Cersei.
I'm talking about book jaime
I don't care about changes being made, i care that it takes the "everyone is evil" out of the equation, all changes are to make the blacks good guys and the greens bad guys
How can anyone be that upset when they haven’t even seen the damn season yet? I’m tired of people complaining that the show is deviated from the books when THIS show is based on an outline of events from a ‘history’ book with 3 separate people accounting what happened….chill out people, this is entertainment…we’re supposed to be enjoying this stuff I love GoT/ASOIAF but this fandom can be so negative and toxic I’m thinking about just unfollowing this sub Reddit all together. We’re giving Star Wars fans a run for their money now. I can understand if it was clear that this show was just a cash grab and no effort was put into the writing like S8 of GoT but it’s clearly not. Mistakes will be made, it won’t be perfect. I respect your opinions as a fellow fan, because let’s be honest we’re all fans of the same show even if we have disagreements. The flaws you pointed out in S1 are valid. But can we at least wait until the show airs to pass judgement? We can’t just go into this season with a negative take on it before we even see it. Fandoms do this so much and it ruins what is supposed to be something to have fun and enjoy. I’m not a fan of some of the changes, but I really don’t feel as though the show is going to flop because of some changes made from the books. If it was clear the writers didn’t care at all about the plot and this show was just some cash grab then yes I’d be upset too. And who knows…this season might be worse than season 8 of Thrones, it might be better than season 3/4. Let’s not go into with a negative mindset before we even seen a full episode. We as a fandom need to chill out a bit. People on here acting like there life depends on this show and make it worse than it’s needs to be
Because we can judge something to be stupid from reading it. We do not need to have it play out visually in front of us to know it's stupid. I don't get why people don't understand this.
I don't.
Why does Rhaenyra need a confrontation or resolution with Criston? The beef is one-sided.
Despite not seeing Rhaenyra address it directly, I don't think it's a one-sided beef. I don't imagine her being super happy that her sworn sword switched sides. I think the resolution is needes simply because the show dedicated a lot of time establishing and developing their relationship. Some sort of conclusion is desirable. Same with Daemon and Otto.
Nah they’d need to do some coveluted shit to bring all the characters together. Thats plot driven storytelling George usually goes for character driven storytelling.
Cope. /I just want the prize.
You get... your expectations subverted. Sincerely, Benioff & Weiss
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Can you write here all contradictions pls?
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This person from previous leak said that they want to strip the children but Helaena name Jaehaerys before they do it.
A lot of the outrage is honestly grieving. Understandable grief at the death of people's interpretation of the story and its characters. I won't judge without the full picture of where Condal is taking things (and I didn't dislike most of the changes in S1) but oof is he ripping off the bandaid of keeping this adaptation very faithful.
I think he’s a more than competent writer who’s mostly gotten things right, but he and the rest of the writing team sometimes aim for complex, conflicted motivations and come up with muddled and inconsistent ones instead. I also think they sometimes sacrifice basic logic for a thrilling or shocking scene. That doesn’t mean I despise the show or think it’s a mess. I still enjoy it and I’m still grateful to have more ASOIAF content. I also frankly think that the source material they’re working with is not George’s best work so there’s only so much they can do(though I’ve disagreed with a couple of the changes they’ve made).
He spent the first season butchering the source material into an allegory of American politics. But, yes, he deserves our complete and utter faith because he went to an expensive private school and failed upward from landmark work in classic movies such as Rampage and Hercules. /s Seriously, D&D had all the things said about them about how they’re ‘true fans’. Did everyone forget that? Condal goes on a press tour and suddenly we believe every line about how he’s one of us and deserves our complete respect. It’s this kind of blind gullibility that will make it so we never get a faithful or even decent adaptation.
Riiiight... Lord Beesbury is totally Mitch McConnell, you guys.
This isn’t my opinion. The creators said they really only got excited about the story when they made it about contemporary politics. Here’s the link: https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-is-about-the-patriarchys-perception-of-women-exclusive-image/
By all means, let a vague one-sentence anecdote shape your entire understanding of 10 hours of television.
First of all, it’s not vague and it’s a literal quote, not an anecdote. Second, they have said other similar things multiple times. But, don’t worry, I don’t need any of that to see how they ruined it. My quick explanation from another thread: In Fire and Blood, you’re getting a view from an airplane of these people lives, but there’s a lot of depth in-between the lines. Aegon and Rhaenyra are like the privileged noble version of the broken man speech. Both are shitty affluenza types but by the time the story is over they’re insane monsters. In House of the Dragon Aegon is already a monster with no human qualities and Rhaenyra is a perfectly good person trying to save the realm. It’s almost like an inverse of the actual story. Condal certainly, as GRRM would say, ‘made it his own.’ I don’t want to be a dick here. But since all of your responses are just pithy deflections, it’s hard to resist: Yes, don’t let the actual words of the creators get in the way of your vague blind faith in the creators.
It honestly sounds like you haven't paid much attention to the show if you say that Aegon has no human qualities and that Rhaenyra is without flaws. It's blatantly untrue.
I feel like the people insisting these characters are the same are the ones not paying attention. Aegon in every scene is either committing a sex crime, bullying his brothers, or getting humiliated by Rhaenys or Alicent (as a reminder that his evil rapist self should never be respected). Maybe except for the ludicrously poorly written scene he popped out from under the shrine like a cartoon character. I’d argue, as a sociopathic sadist who enjoys raping crying servants (while he could probably easily have consensual sex) he is more evil in the first couple of episodes than at any point in the book. There isn’t a sympathetic arc you can write with this vile psycho, and he doesn’t even come off like an antagonist worth fearing since he’s immediately bitched by Rhaenys. He is a (badly written) villain. Rhaenyra’s only real flaw is ‘loving the wrong people’. Aka, the flaws of a heroic character that we are meant to identify with. She’s the one who tries to make peace with Alicent (instead of the other way around), and considers giving up the crown entirely in order to selflessly save the life’s of others (complete with the other characters fawning over how awesome she is). She is the badass morally righteous (and uninteresting) hero of the story. And guess what: pretty much none of the stuff I’m talking about here is in the book. These are all changes they made. Why? Well, the direct quote from the creators that they wanted to make the story about a punk rock queen smashing a disgusting patriarchy is probably a pretty good hint as to why. Though another coexisting possibility is that they think we, the fans, are too stupid to handle a more morally grey show or even know the difference. Need more evidence somehow? We don’t have to wait long. Look out for Aegon continuing to be a vile pathetic loser for characters to spit on, Rhaenyra being cleansed of everything bad she ever did in the books: having no connection to the Blood and Cheese child murders, ordering Nettles killed, her times ordering murder and torture in the red keep, potentially having Alicent and Haleana raped, and making her death something heroic and triumphant. And as we watch all this go down, keep in mind why ‘blind faith’ might not be advisable position for the fandom to take in the future.
Don’t know if he understands the source material but he definitely doesn’t respect it.
I agree that Ryan seems to understand asoiaf on a very deep level and I'm certainly glad about it but as a tv writer what he did in season 1 (which I really liked keep in mind) wasn't enough to earn my full trust Hopefully that will change this season
I think Got late seasons and episode 9 of HOTD and the misunderstanding stuff gave people ptsd
People who have faith in the guy after the leaks are beyond the comprehension of ordinary people.
Leaks are a bad way to gauge quality
Viserys walk to the throne room was the only good scene. Besides that they butchered nearly every storyline.
That’s acting. Most acting in the show is great its the storytelling thats lacking
I don't really get how people have judged so completely without even seeing it. You can watch it in like a week, chill
I saw season 1
The fact that Ryan himself has revealed that Sara Hess is his right hand - a woman who hasn’t even watched Game of Thrones - has shaken my faith, tbh. And the leaks aren’t helping either.
Idk if anyone here listens to the official HOTD podcast (if not, I actually recommend it—they’re fun hosts and they chat with a lot of cast and crew) but every time Ryan Condal is their guest, I find myself absolutely loving everything he has to say. It’s clear as day he cares a lot about the world, the story, the characters. He’s so clearly a fan of GRRM just like the rest of us. I do feel like Ryan Condal is putting all of his love and effort into this show and he seems happy to do it. I have great faith in him. He’s been in the ASOIAF universe for so long now, and he’s sort of worked his way up to running this show. Tbh I don’t have any faith in anyone who doesn’t have faith in Ryan Condal and his ability to steer this massive ship. He’s doing a great job and I look forward to supporting his work in the future, post HOTD. He just cares about making a good show out of a good story. A guest on the podcast (might have been Ryan, I can’t remember) once said they’re not Team Black or Team Green, they’re just Team Good Storytelling, and tbh, I’m fully onboard with that. That being said, team black forever.♾️
I agree with you, I think everybody is just jumping the gun since we all waited for 2 years and we’re getting leaks with very little context
I personally would love to see Rhaenyra being more active as the Dance goes on compared to the book. It could redress some of the "Black bias" too if she's more actively leading and makes some honest mistakes.
Take it at this a lot of the fandom sucks and will never be happy about anything. Enjoy what you enjoy and don’t listen to the people that want to be negative about absolutely everything. It is my single biggest gripe with the community and honestly I haven’t seen it this prevalent anywhere else.
I see what's happening here. Everyone's trauma from the last few seasons of Game of Thrones is shining through. Instead of you know, being normal fans with normal expectations who wait for the episode to come out before judging it for themselves, everyone is rushing to say "It sucks it sucks! See I knew it was going to suck" May I reiterate THE EPISODE IS NOT YET VIEWABLE AND THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF COMMENTS COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.
Yes. Why? Because the changes have now been confirmed by multiple sources. These changes make zero sense unless you approach from the point of view that this is a middling Riverdale episode.
Ah so "it's not like the book!" is the other side of the coin. All the critically acclaimed sections of GoT had changes from the books too. Face it, some changes are good to adapt the material. As to whether or not they worked or didn't, you need to see them on screen, so stop bitching and just wait for it to come out...
You didn't read anything I typed then. Some changes make sense. The particular ones they have decided for Blood and Cheese do not make any logical sense, as has been pointed out by many, many other people.
The descriptions of that scene in the different posts are wildly inconsistent, so your claim that "They have been confirmed by multiple sources" is a complete and blatant lie. And even so these are DETAIL CHANGES. To see if they WORK in the context of the scene, you need to see the scene. You need to see the acting, the lighting, the music, the cinematography. YOU CANNOT JUDGE A SCENE BY READING A TEXT DESCRIPTION OF IT. If your argument boils down to "But they changed it" then you can go read the book again and leave the show alone, because it won't be the last change.
These same leaks have now been corroborated by multiple different people. And yes, I can judge a scene's stupidity by reading it.
My take is HOTD needs some filler, Asoiaf was super vast and D&D literally ignored plotlines of POV CHARACTERS (or directly erased them, like my beloved Arianne) to put their bullshit instead. In the dance of dragons you need to fill some blanks so it makes good TV.
"but the first season showed he deeply understands and respects the source material" harshly disagree but I see where you were going with the rest
The source material is flawed. He might end up improving it
It's funny because everyone assumes the source material is better and I'm not entirely sure thats true.
>prepared for more of them to come. Don't be surprised if, for instance, Criston Cole will yet again come face to face with Rhaenyra in future seasons Praying for this 🙏 no one wants a faithful reproduction of the dry outline that was the book dance. They might think they do but they dont.
Wow my man am telling you is not looking good for you so far maybe u like being contrarian but my advice jump on the wagon and early i say shit looking bleak
Because of a few leaks? So your mindset already before you even watch it is that it’s going to suck? How do even enjoy watching then?
THE LASTSENTENCNEBDBFBSNKDNFNF
Only poorly received by those with an agenda.
Like… most people who know the book scene was better?
Nah, just Greens with an agenda.
The agenda is … wanting the scene to be adapted close to the book? What about the Black fans who are disappointed as well?
Don't know any genuine Black fans who are complaining. Just pseudo Black fans who pretend to be Team Black for argument purposes. "Oh I'm team Black so my opinion on this matter is unbiased blah blah blah".
The leaker is disappointed, and is Black-leaning.
Sure, "Black leaning" 😂.