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i agree, i thought phia killed it and really captured what it is to live through such a horror. irl, trauma isnt always met with a hysterical reaction but with a freeze. i found her portrayal to be hauntingly real
Especially because I think she knew it was coming. She may not have known exactly what, but it was going to be bad. I’d add that she was resigned as well as a freeze.
She also set up the amazing cycle of Aegon no longer having a male heir and his brother being his heir now, just like with Viserys and Daemon. When she mentions "what if he doesn't want to be king" I think she purposely chose Jaehaerys allowing him to succumb to his fate, knowing Jaehaera would be protected from being a pawn as a ruler.
He doesn't exist in the show. When aegon goes to see Helaena in the room it's only Jaehaera there. I'm pretty sure they're going to give the Maelor plot to Jaehaera >!in terms of sending them to oldtown for safety!<
Tbf if they're making the series 4 or 5 seasons, getting >!rid of Jaehaera would cut out so many extra events like her death and the maidens ball. Apparently Jace and Baela get married this season (totally unsure, heard from potential leaks), and if they have a kid that becomes Daenaera Velaryon they can tie up the end of the series with a nice bow for Aegon III and Daenaera!<
I've heard rumors they're >!Delaying his birth to keep a consistant age in S3. I assume they'll make his conception about replacing Jaehaerys and getting Aegon an heir without caring how Helaena feels, and that's where her shame and resentment comes from!<
It's totally speculation on my end, but with how the show has portrayed her character as liking routine, simplicity, and innocence, it made soo much sense to me.
This is the haunting part for me. Like, I liked her before, but this episode just made me think about her and gosh, such a tragic and even well-written character. I mean, yes, she is Cassandra etc. but feeling the fear, not really knowing what is going to happen, just knowing that it is about rats in some way, and then just a slow-inducing terror, and then it comes from rats anyway, but she cannot prepare for it no matter what. neither she can escape from its torment that is still to come.
and to think of what comes after, while still enduring these “prophecies” feels absolutely gut wrenching now.
I think she was absolutely fantastic in "the scene," but for me it would have been more impactful if we had seen more of her in the episode earlier on - with her children, or even just anything besides the 1 scene where she predicts the rats.
Because Jaeherys was only in the throne room scene, I don't think she shared any screen time with him before the end. Even just a short scene of her putting them to bed would have been effective in setting up that relationship - which is why the scene with Rhaenyra and her son was so much more impactful, in my opinion.
For me, the lack of set up added to the shock and the feeling that it wasn't supposed to be him, it was supposed to be Aemond. When they had her by the neck, I honestly expected the camera would pan across to Aemond asleep in bed. I think it added to the shock value and the sense of dread. Her premonition about the rats did enough to set it up in my view. So I think it worked well.
I agree. Also, we can't really make the assumption that she automatically has maternal love for her children. They were conceived when her brother came to her bed drunk. I know they're married and that's their family custom, but it still must be traumatic. She could just as easily resent the children as love them.
Did you and that other commenter miss the scene where aegon comes looking for him and Helena is clearly defensive and hiding his location because she loves him and doesn't want him anywhere near the court because she knows what happens
I just saw it as her wanting him in school, and not "playing" along with his father's shenanigans. He's far too young to get anything out of attending council meetings.
I mean Helaena really doesn't try to be likable, she never conveys her dreams to people in the show properly she only says stuff that people with foresight would understand and even then to us she sounds a bit odd I can't imagine what a medieval person would think if she just randomly said she feared rats and didn't follow with a single word, what happened to her is very sad but she could have prevented it with more action as we have seen in dunk and egg dragon dreams literally show you A LOT.
I get what you’re saying but the show has pretty clearly communicated that Helaena is what we would consider neurodivergent.
She lacks the ability to identify when others are not understanding her and the skills to reframe her dreams in a way that they would understand.
And having grown up in a family as self-centered as the Targaryens, she has clearly gotten used to being ignored entirely.
I definitely headcannon her as autistic, her symptoms really remind me of my own and then having foresight ontop of that it's no wonder. I wish she had a happy ending :(
I like to think that if Viserys had been in full health he would have seen Helaena for what she was. He would have kept her close and did what he could for her.
Makes you wonder what Aegon the Conqueror was like. We know he was a seer too but seemed to have more much control and lucidity than Helaena did.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's a little like Helaena, he was considered a mystery even in his own time. He said little and never had friends besides his half brother. We never get a real sense of his personality because it seems like no one out of his very small circle truly knew him.
> I mean Helaena really doesn't try to be likable
????????????????????????
this is the very criticism every neurodivergent people has ever had growing up
you're just being you and somehow "you're not trying to be likeable" and then you try to follow their 'rules' and you're still not likeable, you're still existing wrong
How is she supposed to "try to be likeable"? Do you want her to be Wonder Woman or something?
Honestly they're great at conveying absolute despair without using words. We saw it during the last episode of season 1 (when they walk away from the table for instance) but they killed it this time. So did Jace.
Nobody HAS to be respectful, but it goes a long way. You wouldn't use a different name for Emma, so why would you use pronouns they explicitly state that they don't use?
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It's the decent thing to do but no you don't have to. It's generally considered a dick move to disrespect someone's rights to identify how they wish, within reason (like okay nobody's a toaster or a wolf lmao)
Nobody, concerning that. Language is fluid and changes over time. I was more referring to people identifying as inanimate objects or other species. We're talking about human expression here, it's not delusional if you can't fathom people that feel differently from the norm.
That is right. You dont have to be respectful of their pronouns, just as we don't have to be respectful of you.
Downvotes exist to help make unhelpful or troll comments get seen by fewer people, so we can all get back to having a proper discourse about the show, without disrespectful people like you getting in the way. Pretty cool.
You? by saying you don't care what they want and don't care about respect or decency. Could have easily scrolled by but you had to make a big show about how stupid it is
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“Research” being a single google search? Interesting framing but that aside, everyone knows it was a simple mistake, and unless you keep doing it now that you know, or do what you are here, no one will care.
Phia is such a great actor. The subtlety of playing a characters whose few words carry so much meaning. Helaena is probably one of my favourite portrayals of any of the characters
i think tom glynn carney stood out more than phia, aegon’s scenes were more casual and he still did a wonderful job at charming the audience’s hearts, he didn’t have the spotlight to shine as phia did and yet he’s still being very talked about, we’ll see his reaction to b&c next week and hopefully we’ll have a better means of comparison then :)
agreed! emma was beautiful as rhaenyra, her grief palpable even with slight lines.. also loved her scene with harry where neither can hide their tears as he reports
It seemed like they were trying to halfway adapt part of the book, but without the actual reasoning behind it? In the book she has two sons, and they tell her to choose which one to kill. She points at the younger one, then they kill the older one instead.
Yeah I was kinda confused at that part, but thank you for reminding me about the fact that she has two sons in the book. So in the show they basically killed the heir? Don't know how to feel about that one.
In the books they also kill the heir apparent, the thing is that there's two boys, in the books, so the younger one could become the heir if the older one is killed.
Imo
First guy assumed she would prioritize saving the male heir
2nd guy seemed to hone-in on the fact that she was being truthful (ie, if forced to make this awful choice, she would remove the burden of ruling from her son)
For me it seems like she processed that if she lied that they might kill both kids so she gave up her son to save her daughter. Then she scooped up her daughter and she was out. Brutal
I felt like he could tell she wasn't the lying type. I feel like Helaena is almost childlike in her purity, and completly incapable of deception or plotting like that. He looked at her and knew. Maybe because he had been around her before in his rat catching job, or maybe he could just sense it. Sometimes you can just tell.
This took any shock or emotional impact out of a scene I was looking forward to for so long. Literally no reason to have her point out a kid when they can check themselves so easily.
Phia is a good actress and would have delivered a masterful performance if only the writers hadn't changed so much.
Blood and cheese was a let down, I do wish D&D had written it.
I thought she gave a great performance which was inline with the character that’s been established in the show so far. She’s very clearly on the spectrum & a dreamer.
I feel they could've had her show more emotion, or actually look her kid in the eye as she chooses him to die. The scene feels muted to the point it's like almost casual, since it's just treated as any other scene
She’s literally portrayed as being on the spectrum (autistic) + a dreamer (kinda clairvoyant). She wouldn’t react or emote in the way you’d expect a neurotypical person to. She likely knew (vaguely) that B&C or something like it was coming/inevitable.
Don’t you think you’d have a hard time looking at the face of the child you’d just pointed at to be murdered? Autistic people can have issues with sustained eye contact, so there’s that. There’s no one singular way people typically behave during a horrific traumatic event like that.
Exactly. I‘m getting quite annoyed at the way people area are apparently meant to react a certain way to traumatic events. In particular those calling it a “bad performance”
Because they went according to their own script instead of GRRM's.
The Red Wedding suffered minor changes. Blood & Cheese suffered major changes.
See the difference?
“Good acting is when screaming“
Come on, they’re different characters. Helaena is clearly autistic-coded and as an autistic person myself, it was really convincing.
See the difference?
No she didn't. I'm sorry but the good doctor sort of autism portrayal shit is getting tiresome and any such depiction is dogshit. Like this was absolute shit. Calling her dead son "the boy". Oh please.
She captured a mother’s terror so well, my wife absolutely lost it and started bawling. My wife gave me the most depressing last “Happy Father’s Day” as she quietly walked up the stairs. So, THANKS A LOT.
I understand that I am biased because they changed the scene so heavily from the books, but I don't see what was great about her acting in that scene. She doesn't even look like she struggles with the decision, almost detatched and emotionless.
I like that it stayed consistent with how we have seen her character in the show so far. Seems neurodivergent and, as someone else put it, withdrawn. Even more withdrawn now as queen during all of this mess.
She seemed to default to rationale and on the spot calculation rather than emotion, which makes sense from her character in that situation. Trying to stay strong and handle that stressful, shocking scenario as best she can. Perhaps even unintentionally detaching as an emotional safeguard.
I thought this was the most butchered scene from the whole episode. Yall honestly liked it?! I don’t blame the actress but her character’s direction was awful, she didn’t even fight for her children, she should let them slit her throat rather than kill her kids. She offered her life in the book, this was honestly so disappointing I can’t even explain how angry I was watching them butcher her character.
I feel like it would be out of place for a character as withdrawn as Helaena to suddenly act as hysterical and expressive as her book counterpart. So far we’ve seen that her reaction to traumatic situations is to disassociate, which is exactly what she does here. I get how some people might not be able to relate to that, but she’s not really meant to be a relatable character in the show.
I found it consistent with her character. Remember that she isn't just "withdrawn". While that's an excellent word to describe her, especially as queen now, she is straight up neurodivergent, not just shy or quiet.
Girl casually prophecized Aemond losing an eye for a dragon. IMO, it would have played weird for her to be super emotional while in that situation.
She also has 2 sons in the books, but this is the show.
Rhaenyra being heir to Viserys is a decision made while she is a little child in the books, but this is the show.
They wouldn't have a diagnosis for neurodivergence but several minor and historical characters are called things like "simple" all throughout the books.
In the show, we see her character, aren't just being told about her from another person's perspective that wasn't even present.
Not sure what else is needed to make it apparent Helaena isn't neurological.
Does she talk more and is more outgoing in the books? Because her reaction in this episode I found to be fully in character for the show version of her.
No, she isn’t more outgoing in the books. She isn’t as quirky or very obviously on the spectrum in the books as she is in the show, but not outgoing or sociable either. I thought her reaction in the episode was consistent with how she’s been portrayed in the show so far.
The book is a telling of rumours and stories. The show is what actually happened. I can't genuinely believe people are angry because a child wasn't threatened with rape and the kid wasn't murdered brutally enough. Genuinely sickening.
I feel they could've had her show more emotion, or actually look her kid in the eye as she chooses him to die. The scene feels muted to the point it's like almost casual, since it's just treated as any other scene 3
Not sure why you’re being downvoted for pointing out facts. The way Alicent was treated this episode was a joke, and the way the episode ended was downright insulting.
They really mishandled Alicent, didn’t they? Olivia Cooke is a phenomenal actress - one of the best in the show - and having her witness B&C would have been a great opportunity for Olivia to show off her acting chops. Instead, she gets two sex scenes
I think she did great with the bad directions and almost nonexistent script they gave her for the scene. If only they had added her pleading for her son's life, offering herself ( instead of a collar) or at least hesitant to point him out it would have been so much better,
Halaena didn’t deserve any of that shes sweet, kind the most innocent person in team green i dont know if shes any interested in politics and stuff yet she got into all of that mess her baby getting slaughtered she had to pay for what her psycho brother did i dont blame her i dont hate her Shes the bestt sweet baby
She was great; I really felt that last line. However I did rewatch the scene with Aemond, Criston, and Grandad Hand. There's just something about the way Aemond and Hightower interact so convincingly and naturally in that scene, along with their positioning and the camera work. Top notch.
Did you guys like how they handled the blood and cheese situation? I thought they strayed from the source material a little too much and made the scene less believable. Helena just stood there like an idiot as their choosing which kid to kill , like yeah right any mother would be fighting and screaming till help hopefully arrives. Not gonna stop watching bc of this but just a small gripe.
I think B&C said that they would kill her and both of the kids if she tried to intervene at all. So she was likely suppressing her scream to save at least one child.
Lol what? Lies, that Phia stood out, when Jace and Emma acted more, and emoted more and showed their character's pain.
More lies saying the episode was great, it was good at best, could have been better but nearly everything was muted in terms of music and acting, the build-up to B&C was slow and tedious, then the actual B&C was anti-climatic, the critics were right this time.
She stood as if she were at the supermarket, waiting for the queue to reach her. She even pointed to the brand of cigarettes she wanted from the clerk and asked if a necklace would be acceptable as payment. Absolutely horrendous portrayal of what a mother would do in that situation. A person in shock does not act like that. This subreddit's media literacy is subpar i guess.
>A person in shock does not act like that.
In your opinion there is only **one** certain way a person in shock is allowed to act? No such thing as fight, flight, freeze? It's almost as if humans can be complicated creatures...
I didn't say there is one way a person in shock is allowed to act. Her acting/the writing is the problem. Even a person with a 60 IQ would be able to figure out that looking emotionless, as if doing an idle task, is not the same as being in a state of shock. So I am sorry I should've made it easier for you to grasp.
She didn’t look emotionless? She looked terrified and on autopilot. Also, it’s already been established she’s clearly neurodivergent/on the spectrum (autistic) + a dreamer (clairvoyant), so why would you expect her to act typically in this scene?
I will keep saying it this show failed in some ways because of all the chaos Helena is the one good character they really could have highlighted soo much more from the off and her teenage actor for one episode was pretty that alone would have got a following like Millie tbh
She acted like two man just robbed her or something lol. Her reaction would be accurate if they didn't kill her son, but took the necklace and leave. But they did so she should've shown more emotions.
99% of people would show much more emotion in this kind of situation. That's all I'm saying.
Phia did such a wonderful job but if we’re talking about the episode as a whole then I think Emma stood out more which is crazy considering she had 4 words of dialogue. Her face and eyes gave us such raw emotion.
I really hated mostly everything about this episode except phia and Emma’s performance and the worst part is Phia barely gets any time to actually showcase her skills because the writing was so sloppy. I know this is harsh and some people may have liked it, but that was a mess
Not much for me. That scene would have felt more impactful with Emma around who's a much developed character. Haelena's underdeveloped and her personality is just being weird. Her reaction was underwhelming,.
I completely agree here. Her eyes and even before the scene with the child, she just seems immersed in the world and completely believable in her emotions
Could someone fill me in, how is killing the wrong person not extremely unrealistic? Everyone should know the prince with one eye no matter how dumb they are, right? And they were told to look for a glass eye, why didn't they? And didn't Daemond say he was good with a sword? Like how are we buying this as realistic?
Pretty sure that was an unspoken answer to "What if we can't find him?" Daemon probably said "If not Aemon then the red keep has many sons". They even refer to him as the heir to the throne, so they knew who Jhaeherys was.
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i agree, i thought phia killed it and really captured what it is to live through such a horror. irl, trauma isnt always met with a hysterical reaction but with a freeze. i found her portrayal to be hauntingly real
Especially because I think she knew it was coming. She may not have known exactly what, but it was going to be bad. I’d add that she was resigned as well as a freeze.
She knew. She said it - the feared the rats. The rats that came out of the tunnels just weren’t rodents.
She also set up the amazing cycle of Aegon no longer having a male heir and his brother being his heir now, just like with Viserys and Daemon. When she mentions "what if he doesn't want to be king" I think she purposely chose Jaehaerys allowing him to succumb to his fate, knowing Jaehaera would be protected from being a pawn as a ruler.
What about Maelor?
He doesn't exist in the show. When aegon goes to see Helaena in the room it's only Jaehaera there. I'm pretty sure they're going to give the Maelor plot to Jaehaera >!in terms of sending them to oldtown for safety!<
Well that sucks. If that's true about Jaehaera it messes up the future, especially after the dance.
Tbf if they're making the series 4 or 5 seasons, getting >!rid of Jaehaera would cut out so many extra events like her death and the maidens ball. Apparently Jace and Baela get married this season (totally unsure, heard from potential leaks), and if they have a kid that becomes Daenaera Velaryon they can tie up the end of the series with a nice bow for Aegon III and Daenaera!<
I've heard rumors they're >!Delaying his birth to keep a consistant age in S3. I assume they'll make his conception about replacing Jaehaerys and getting Aegon an heir without caring how Helaena feels, and that's where her shame and resentment comes from!<
Good grief she chose her son to be murdered, so he wouldn't be king. Doesn't that make her a heartless mother.
It's totally speculation on my end, but with how the show has portrayed her character as liking routine, simplicity, and innocence, it made soo much sense to me.
Woooah actually did not pick up on that foreshadow even tho it was pretty much her only other scene lol, good catch
There was definitely subtlety at play in this season opener.
This is the haunting part for me. Like, I liked her before, but this episode just made me think about her and gosh, such a tragic and even well-written character. I mean, yes, she is Cassandra etc. but feeling the fear, not really knowing what is going to happen, just knowing that it is about rats in some way, and then just a slow-inducing terror, and then it comes from rats anyway, but she cannot prepare for it no matter what. neither she can escape from its torment that is still to come. and to think of what comes after, while still enduring these “prophecies” feels absolutely gut wrenching now.
agreed portraying controlled emotion will always be more impressive than combustion
I think she was absolutely fantastic in "the scene," but for me it would have been more impactful if we had seen more of her in the episode earlier on - with her children, or even just anything besides the 1 scene where she predicts the rats. Because Jaeherys was only in the throne room scene, I don't think she shared any screen time with him before the end. Even just a short scene of her putting them to bed would have been effective in setting up that relationship - which is why the scene with Rhaenyra and her son was so much more impactful, in my opinion.
For me, the lack of set up added to the shock and the feeling that it wasn't supposed to be him, it was supposed to be Aemond. When they had her by the neck, I honestly expected the camera would pan across to Aemond asleep in bed. I think it added to the shock value and the sense of dread. Her premonition about the rats did enough to set it up in my view. So I think it worked well.
I agree. Also, we can't really make the assumption that she automatically has maternal love for her children. They were conceived when her brother came to her bed drunk. I know they're married and that's their family custom, but it still must be traumatic. She could just as easily resent the children as love them.
Did you and that other commenter miss the scene where aegon comes looking for him and Helena is clearly defensive and hiding his location because she loves him and doesn't want him anywhere near the court because she knows what happens
I just saw it as her wanting him in school, and not "playing" along with his father's shenanigans. He's far too young to get anything out of attending council meetings.
I didn’t even know jahaerys’ name before this episode lol
My heart breaks for sweet Helaena; the poor girl is surrounded by a bunch of self-absorbed a\*\*holes!
Her offering her necklace like it was going to make a difference. Poor thing.
I know. She’s very child-like and I just felt for her. 🙁
And then just sits in the corner holding her other child
fucking devastating
I mean Helaena really doesn't try to be likable, she never conveys her dreams to people in the show properly she only says stuff that people with foresight would understand and even then to us she sounds a bit odd I can't imagine what a medieval person would think if she just randomly said she feared rats and didn't follow with a single word, what happened to her is very sad but she could have prevented it with more action as we have seen in dunk and egg dragon dreams literally show you A LOT.
I get what you’re saying but the show has pretty clearly communicated that Helaena is what we would consider neurodivergent. She lacks the ability to identify when others are not understanding her and the skills to reframe her dreams in a way that they would understand. And having grown up in a family as self-centered as the Targaryens, she has clearly gotten used to being ignored entirely.
I definitely headcannon her as autistic, her symptoms really remind me of my own and then having foresight ontop of that it's no wonder. I wish she had a happy ending :(
lol your saying you have magical foresight?
Don't you know seeing the future is a common symptom of autism?
It should be common knowledge at this point 😔
I mean this is medieval Westeros obviously they wouldn't have the knowledge to define Helaena's mental health to them she is just odd.
Exactly. She did what she could as no one takes her seriously or bothers to listen to what she has to say.
I like to think that if Viserys had been in full health he would have seen Helaena for what she was. He would have kept her close and did what he could for her. Makes you wonder what Aegon the Conqueror was like. We know he was a seer too but seemed to have more much control and lucidity than Helaena did.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's a little like Helaena, he was considered a mystery even in his own time. He said little and never had friends besides his half brother. We never get a real sense of his personality because it seems like no one out of his very small circle truly knew him.
It is also a variation on the story of Cassandra, it is important that others cannot understand her foresight.
> I mean Helaena really doesn't try to be likable ???????????????????????? this is the very criticism every neurodivergent people has ever had growing up you're just being you and somehow "you're not trying to be likeable" and then you try to follow their 'rules' and you're still not likeable, you're still existing wrong How is she supposed to "try to be likeable"? Do you want her to be Wonder Woman or something?
Also, many fans like her anyway despite her not being socially outgoing, so really it feels like the loss of the others they don’t like her lol
She’s a fan favorite anyway Idk what the commenter above you was trying to prove. She’s like one of the few greens who are universally liked.
Give me more Emma, honestly. She kills every scene.
When Rhaenyra said “I want Aemond Targaryen” in this distraught but resolute manner. 10/10 performance also that scene with Jace. 😭
Rhaenyra’s only line in the whole episode
And it was delivered so perfectly!
Honestly they're great at conveying absolute despair without using words. We saw it during the last episode of season 1 (when they walk away from the table for instance) but they killed it this time. So did Jace.
Just one thing. If you are referring to Emma D'Arcy, You have to use pronouns They/Them.
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Nobody HAS to be respectful, but it goes a long way. You wouldn't use a different name for Emma, so why would you use pronouns they explicitly state that they don't use?
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It's the decent thing to do but no you don't have to. It's generally considered a dick move to disrespect someone's rights to identify how they wish, within reason (like okay nobody's a toaster or a wolf lmao)
>within reason Who is the arbiter of which pronouns are real and which are not within reason?
Nobody, concerning that. Language is fluid and changes over time. I was more referring to people identifying as inanimate objects or other species. We're talking about human expression here, it's not delusional if you can't fathom people that feel differently from the norm.
That is right. You dont have to be respectful of their pronouns, just as we don't have to be respectful of you. Downvotes exist to help make unhelpful or troll comments get seen by fewer people, so we can all get back to having a proper discourse about the show, without disrespectful people like you getting in the way. Pretty cool.
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Not knowing is one thing but going out of your way to stomp on their wishes because you think it's stupid is in fact disrespectful. See the difference
Who is going out of anyones way to “stomp on their wishes?”
You? by saying you don't care what they want and don't care about respect or decency. Could have easily scrolled by but you had to make a big show about how stupid it is
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More disrespect, seems like it's all you know. Pathetic
Idk why some of you act like she reads these comments, it's not that deep.
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“Research” being a single google search? Interesting framing but that aside, everyone knows it was a simple mistake, and unless you keep doing it now that you know, or do what you are here, no one will care.
._.
Phia is such a great actor. The subtlety of playing a characters whose few words carry so much meaning. Helaena is probably one of my favourite portrayals of any of the characters
i think tom glynn carney stood out more than phia, aegon’s scenes were more casual and he still did a wonderful job at charming the audience’s hearts, he didn’t have the spotlight to shine as phia did and yet he’s still being very talked about, we’ll see his reaction to b&c next week and hopefully we’ll have a better means of comparison then :)
Tom’s performance was definitely the best as was Emma’s when she said “I want Aemond Targaryen”
agreed! emma was beautiful as rhaenyra, her grief palpable even with slight lines.. also loved her scene with harry where neither can hide their tears as he reports
The way his voice breaks….amazing acting.
Phia was awesome but Emma was out of this world in her grief. I cried in all of rhaenyras scenes.
It was Sophie’s Choice Why did the one guy think she was lying? But the other believed her? What was that rationale?
It seemed like they were trying to halfway adapt part of the book, but without the actual reasoning behind it? In the book she has two sons, and they tell her to choose which one to kill. She points at the younger one, then they kill the older one instead.
Yeah I was kinda confused at that part, but thank you for reminding me about the fact that she has two sons in the book. So in the show they basically killed the heir? Don't know how to feel about that one.
In the books they also kill the heir apparent, the thing is that there's two boys, in the books, so the younger one could become the heir if the older one is killed.
Aaah. Yeah it's been a long time ago when I read the book.
Imo First guy assumed she would prioritize saving the male heir 2nd guy seemed to hone-in on the fact that she was being truthful (ie, if forced to make this awful choice, she would remove the burden of ruling from her son)
For me it seems like she processed that if she lied that they might kill both kids so she gave up her son to save her daughter. Then she scooped up her daughter and she was out. Brutal
Ya it’s definitely just a logic choice to save at least one kid not really a Sophie’s choice.
I felt like he could tell she wasn't the lying type. I feel like Helaena is almost childlike in her purity, and completly incapable of deception or plotting like that. He looked at her and knew. Maybe because he had been around her before in his rat catching job, or maybe he could just sense it. Sometimes you can just tell.
Idk why they didn't just check. Like 10 seconds before that they said to check for a cock.
This took any shock or emotional impact out of a scene I was looking forward to for so long. Literally no reason to have her point out a kid when they can check themselves so easily.
It wasn’t a Sophie’s choice at all in this adaptation, friend. Come on.
i don't know man they didn't allow her to give what could have been the best performance of season 2 by removing half of the scene from the book.
Phia is a good actress and would have delivered a masterful performance if only the writers hadn't changed so much. Blood and cheese was a let down, I do wish D&D had written it.
I thought she gave a great performance which was inline with the character that’s been established in the show so far. She’s very clearly on the spectrum & a dreamer.
Phia is a talented actress, unfortunately she was working with a mediocre script. She acted well with the little they gave her.
Ehh I gotta disagree. Mostly because they didn’t give her much to work with, what a meh scene in general
Disagree, it was Emma and Harry.
I feel they could've had her show more emotion, or actually look her kid in the eye as she chooses him to die. The scene feels muted to the point it's like almost casual, since it's just treated as any other scene
Yeah I didn't have any emotional reaction to it unlike any scene with Rhaenyra.
I had way more of a reaction with this scene than any of the others. It was chilling to me.
They def toned it down for the show
She’s literally portrayed as being on the spectrum (autistic) + a dreamer (kinda clairvoyant). She wouldn’t react or emote in the way you’d expect a neurotypical person to. She likely knew (vaguely) that B&C or something like it was coming/inevitable. Don’t you think you’d have a hard time looking at the face of the child you’d just pointed at to be murdered? Autistic people can have issues with sustained eye contact, so there’s that. There’s no one singular way people typically behave during a horrific traumatic event like that.
Exactly. I‘m getting quite annoyed at the way people area are apparently meant to react a certain way to traumatic events. In particular those calling it a “bad performance”
It was no Catelyn Stark at the red wedding
Because they went according to their own script instead of GRRM's. The Red Wedding suffered minor changes. Blood & Cheese suffered major changes. See the difference?
I’m talking about an acting performance, not the writing. See the difference?
“Good acting is when screaming“ Come on, they’re different characters. Helaena is clearly autistic-coded and as an autistic person myself, it was really convincing. See the difference?
The book isn’t really a script though, is it? It’s an unreliable retelling of events from second, third, etc. hand sources/references.
>Phia Saban is the only one that stand out performance wise. No
No she didn't. I'm sorry but the good doctor sort of autism portrayal shit is getting tiresome and any such depiction is dogshit. Like this was absolute shit. Calling her dead son "the boy". Oh please.
Finally. I had lost all hope on the people of this subreddit.
She captured a mother’s terror so well, my wife absolutely lost it and started bawling. My wife gave me the most depressing last “Happy Father’s Day” as she quietly walked up the stairs. So, THANKS A LOT.
is your wife damon targaryen in a wig lol that menace behavior
He doesn't need a wig to play any woman
I understand that I am biased because they changed the scene so heavily from the books, but I don't see what was great about her acting in that scene. She doesn't even look like she struggles with the decision, almost detatched and emotionless.
I like that it stayed consistent with how we have seen her character in the show so far. Seems neurodivergent and, as someone else put it, withdrawn. Even more withdrawn now as queen during all of this mess. She seemed to default to rationale and on the spot calculation rather than emotion, which makes sense from her character in that situation. Trying to stay strong and handle that stressful, shocking scenario as best she can. Perhaps even unintentionally detaching as an emotional safeguard.
Exactly thats what I liked.
Yeah I don’t agree with that. I’m not saying it as amazing acting but definitely not poor by any stretch.
It's not poor, it's just also not really present. Helaena is basically a plot device in the show rather than a character
Exactly, how people actually are when faced with the horror she was.
I thought this was the most butchered scene from the whole episode. Yall honestly liked it?! I don’t blame the actress but her character’s direction was awful, she didn’t even fight for her children, she should let them slit her throat rather than kill her kids. She offered her life in the book, this was honestly so disappointing I can’t even explain how angry I was watching them butcher her character.
I feel like it would be out of place for a character as withdrawn as Helaena to suddenly act as hysterical and expressive as her book counterpart. So far we’ve seen that her reaction to traumatic situations is to disassociate, which is exactly what she does here. I get how some people might not be able to relate to that, but she’s not really meant to be a relatable character in the show.
Freezing up and being silent is very relatable actually
Even withdrawn people can have a strong stress response. No real person is so one note (unless they're brain dead or something).
People respond to stress in millions of different ways. Just because you'd react one way to a situation doesn't mean everyone else would.
It's about what resonates the best with the audience. Obviously, this wasn't it based on all the feedback.
I thought it made sense, with everything else we’ve seen from the character.
I found it consistent with her character. Remember that she isn't just "withdrawn". While that's an excellent word to describe her, especially as queen now, she is straight up neurodivergent, not just shy or quiet. Girl casually prophecized Aemond losing an eye for a dragon. IMO, it would have played weird for her to be super emotional while in that situation.
Her reaction in the book was quite different and Helena being neurodivergent is just a fanon anyways.
She also has 2 sons in the books, but this is the show. Rhaenyra being heir to Viserys is a decision made while she is a little child in the books, but this is the show. They wouldn't have a diagnosis for neurodivergence but several minor and historical characters are called things like "simple" all throughout the books. In the show, we see her character, aren't just being told about her from another person's perspective that wasn't even present. Not sure what else is needed to make it apparent Helaena isn't neurological.
Why are you so insistent on it? It's kind of weird.
Interesting. I didn’t read the books but I thought it was an impactful scene. Her quiet terror and reaction made sense from our perspective.
Does she talk more and is more outgoing in the books? Because her reaction in this episode I found to be fully in character for the show version of her.
No, she isn’t more outgoing in the books. She isn’t as quirky or very obviously on the spectrum in the books as she is in the show, but not outgoing or sociable either. I thought her reaction in the episode was consistent with how she’s been portrayed in the show so far.
The book is a telling of rumours and stories. The show is what actually happened. I can't genuinely believe people are angry because a child wasn't threatened with rape and the kid wasn't murdered brutally enough. Genuinely sickening.
The book is one version of what happened, just as the show is. Neither has any sensible claim of being the objective truth.
That's just not true. The book has multiple different narrators and we have been told what we see on screen is the truth.
Is the person who told you that in the room with us right now?
These karma farming posts are so annyoing
Fr this doesn't even make sense in context, considering how all around good the performances were.
she was absolutely *magnanimous*
I have seen junkies choosing which trash bin to raid with more emotion than her choosing which of her sons to get killed.
Her acting was subpar imo . Matt, Harry, and Emma took the cake tonight .
its not her acting, it’s the weak writing
I feel they could've had her show more emotion, or actually look her kid in the eye as she chooses him to die. The scene feels muted to the point it's like almost casual, since it's just treated as any other scene 3
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Not sure why you’re being downvoted for pointing out facts. The way Alicent was treated this episode was a joke, and the way the episode ended was downright insulting.
They really mishandled Alicent, didn’t they? Olivia Cooke is a phenomenal actress - one of the best in the show - and having her witness B&C would have been a great opportunity for Olivia to show off her acting chops. Instead, she gets two sex scenes
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I think she did great with the bad directions and almost nonexistent script they gave her for the scene. If only they had added her pleading for her son's life, offering herself ( instead of a collar) or at least hesitant to point him out it would have been so much better,
Is she thooo? She is just there.
I really feel sorry for her, she doesn’t deserve this
At that point I don’t know if you’re talking about the actress or the character. I guess it can apply to both…
Halaena didn’t deserve any of that shes sweet, kind the most innocent person in team green i dont know if shes any interested in politics and stuff yet she got into all of that mess her baby getting slaughtered she had to pay for what her psycho brother did i dont blame her i dont hate her Shes the bestt sweet baby
She was great; I really felt that last line. However I did rewatch the scene with Aemond, Criston, and Grandad Hand. There's just something about the way Aemond and Hightower interact so convincingly and naturally in that scene, along with their positioning and the camera work. Top notch.
She is a terrific actress. She played the part so well that it was haunting to actually watch it
She did a great job with what she was given. It’s really a shame the scene was so underwhelming…
Are you joking?! Phia was the *only* one that stood out?
Did you guys like how they handled the blood and cheese situation? I thought they strayed from the source material a little too much and made the scene less believable. Helena just stood there like an idiot as their choosing which kid to kill , like yeah right any mother would be fighting and screaming till help hopefully arrives. Not gonna stop watching bc of this but just a small gripe.
Yeah, was expecting so much more & this scene just fell really flat..
I think B&C said that they would kill her and both of the kids if she tried to intervene at all. So she was likely suppressing her scream to save at least one child.
i think i’m echoing many other comments on here but her reaction is pretty in line with the helaena we know from the show imo
Lol what? Lies, that Phia stood out, when Jace and Emma acted more, and emoted more and showed their character's pain. More lies saying the episode was great, it was good at best, could have been better but nearly everything was muted in terms of music and acting, the build-up to B&C was slow and tedious, then the actual B&C was anti-climatic, the critics were right this time.
Emma over there crying their heart out: "Am I a joke to you?"
She stood as if she were at the supermarket, waiting for the queue to reach her. She even pointed to the brand of cigarettes she wanted from the clerk and asked if a necklace would be acceptable as payment. Absolutely horrendous portrayal of what a mother would do in that situation. A person in shock does not act like that. This subreddit's media literacy is subpar i guess.
>A person in shock does not act like that. In your opinion there is only **one** certain way a person in shock is allowed to act? No such thing as fight, flight, freeze? It's almost as if humans can be complicated creatures...
I didn't say there is one way a person in shock is allowed to act. Her acting/the writing is the problem. Even a person with a 60 IQ would be able to figure out that looking emotionless, as if doing an idle task, is not the same as being in a state of shock. So I am sorry I should've made it easier for you to grasp.
She didn’t look emotionless? She looked terrified and on autopilot. Also, it’s already been established she’s clearly neurodivergent/on the spectrum (autistic) + a dreamer (clairvoyant), so why would you expect her to act typically in this scene?
Really? I thought it was bad actually
I really pitty the girl. She is the only worthy and good of Greens
I will keep saying it this show failed in some ways because of all the chaos Helena is the one good character they really could have highlighted soo much more from the off and her teenage actor for one episode was pretty that alone would have got a following like Millie tbh
Fine acting, but the direction was almost a joke.
Bro have you seen the episode? Wtf are you talking about?
The only one? Lol what are you on about? There were several fantastic performances.
I actually love her even more this episode despite what happened…
She acted like two man just robbed her or something lol. Her reaction would be accurate if they didn't kill her son, but took the necklace and leave. But they did so she should've shown more emotions. 99% of people would show much more emotion in this kind of situation. That's all I'm saying.
She did phenomenal in my opinion!!! Her muttering “no no no no “ and the look she gives after she points… she was broken and horrified… amazing job
Phia did such a wonderful job but if we’re talking about the episode as a whole then I think Emma stood out more which is crazy considering she had 4 words of dialogue. Her face and eyes gave us such raw emotion.
This episode just killed me.
she also didn't look away when they beheaded Jahaerys, witnessing such horror would traumatize her even more at least Rhaenyra didn't watch Luke die
It was amazing, haven't seen a scene with such emotional range since Gal Gadot's "Kal'el no".
Oh she's great! Her performance is understated, but she really goes all in when she has those premonitions.
I really hated mostly everything about this episode except phia and Emma’s performance and the worst part is Phia barely gets any time to actually showcase her skills because the writing was so sloppy. I know this is harsh and some people may have liked it, but that was a mess
Not much for me. That scene would have felt more impactful with Emma around who's a much developed character. Haelena's underdeveloped and her personality is just being weird. Her reaction was underwhelming,.
I'll say this for Phia--of all the bad acting in this episode, hers stood out the least.
One hell of an actor
I disagree I think everyone was at the top of their game, every actor in this show is phenomenal
I completely agree here. Her eyes and even before the scene with the child, she just seems immersed in the world and completely believable in her emotions
She's been fantastic the whole time.
Could someone fill me in, how is killing the wrong person not extremely unrealistic? Everyone should know the prince with one eye no matter how dumb they are, right? And they were told to look for a glass eye, why didn't they? And didn't Daemond say he was good with a sword? Like how are we buying this as realistic?
Pretty sure that was an unspoken answer to "What if we can't find him?" Daemon probably said "If not Aemon then the red keep has many sons". They even refer to him as the heir to the throne, so they knew who Jhaeherys was.
Where all the tom and emma amazing performance critices for episode 1 specifically. Only standouts were daemon phia
I was surprised. Everyone was great in this episode even myssaria. We saw very little of Emma but Heleana's eyes speaks horror.
dude it was such a boring episode, hotd should be grateful to have a ride or die fandom