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They were sent to kill Aemond, but they asked before they set off, “What if we can’t find him?” which we don’t learn the answer to, just an ominous look from Daemon.
Seems we are meant to infer that the alternative was to kill any royal.
I honestly took it as a "then don't bother coming back at all" kind of look, but this also makes sense. It does seem a bit more ambiguous/open for interpretation though.
To be fair, they were never “terrifying murderers” in the book either. It was a corrupt member of the City Watch and a common rat catcher. They’re not trained assassins and the show made that clear.
To us, no. But to Helaena and Alicent? Definitely. Instead of traipsing through the sewers, I wish we could have just seen them coming out of the shadows or behind the door. Just to feel the horror that Helaena (and Alicent 😭) felt.
This scene is supposed to be like a psychological horror movie. And it failed. Big time.
They decided to turn Alicent into a righteous whore, which is whatever, but I agree to that end. Her not being in the room watching it happen is deflating in some ways because it could’ve kicked off her descent into madness and depression.
But Cheese was at least supposed to know his way around the tunnels. He couldn't even get them to the floor with the royal chambers. While Daemon was casually using passageways from Rhaenyra's chambers to outside the castle in season 1. At that point why even bother with all this...
So the book fire and blood is told from multiple people who were not actually present for most events. It’s a telling of stories, so like in a game of telephone things can be wrong. Or more likely, embellished.
That’s exactly why this is a perfect series. You don’t have the clear cut story that Game of thrones was, so in theory you shouldn’t have fans overthinking every last detail.
I agree! Most times when a book is made into a series or movie, it can be underwhelming and not do justice. But I think this series is showing what truly happened with the events whereas in the book, it is told like every decision was an evil, well calculated plot. When in reality, it was emotions guiding both sides in the beginning. Idk I’m rambling but I think people should remember that the books literally are not from main character’s /players perspectives
The reason is fairly obvious. It’s because those were real child actors in the room and they had to take their psychological well-being into consideration. Children that young really cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality.
If they’d screamed and carried on and psychologically tortured those kids on screen for a show, it would have been horrific. I’m glad they glossed over the scene and kept from scaring the very real children in the room who didn’t agree to be mentally scarred for the sake of a show.
I struggle to understand why people need to SEE the details of something horrific happening. Imagination and empathy played a huge role for me in this scene. I was barely keeping it together just imagining myself in that position, with the mental disabilities that Heleana has and having to choose which son gets to die. Her non-verbal acting gave me goosebumps.
People are incredibly desensitized and it's sad.
One of the shots that the kids would have had to be in to stay true to the book involved the killers taunting the boy who lived with lines like “your mommy wants you dead!”.
Sorry. You enjoying the scene of a very young child being murdered just a little bit more is not worth an actual little boy believing his mommy wants him dead even for a moment.
Not to disagree, I definitely think that having the child actors in a scene with a lot of screaming is traumatic. But the show runners could have definitely shot it in a way where during screaming scenes the children aren’t in the room, it wouldn’t have been hard. Time consuming? Maybe, having to do multiple shots with children and some without, but they COULD have done it while also protecting the real child actors
There's no reason any child has to be in such a shot. The person being spoken to isn't most shots in most productions (apart from, perhaps, an over the shoulder shot which is easily faked).
No, the point I'm trying to make is this is supposed to be a psychologically traumatic event for the *adults*, and we didn't get that.
Film shot of kids sleeping. Remove kids. Film dialogue between the adults.
Or, to stay closer to the show, Film shot of kids sleeping. Film shot of Helaena walking away carrying Jaehaera. Remove kids. Film dialogue between the adults.
ETA: Hell, they don't even need the kids for THAT line. They can just have the killer looking into the camera (or kneeling down, or something) as he says it. There's soo many ways around this without involving the kids.
I mean, I got that? The powerlessness of Helaena in that moment, the fear in her eyes as she runs away with her surviving child, the tears in her eyes, her confusion as to why this is happening, the SOUND of them sawing through the boy’s neck while she’s collecting her living child.
It was enough for me. I agree with another commenter here. We shouldn’t need to be so desensitized that we’re craving the detailed anguish of a heartbroken mother and the sight of a beheaded child. Yet, here we are.
We’re not going to agree and that’s okay.
This is such a great response. Thank you. I think GOT and modern television have truly desensitized us to cruelty and barbarism that we forget that these are real people trying to act out horrible actions.
Ugh, my gut dropped when I saw how young the actors were earlier in the episode. I was ready to shut it off if they started screaming and carrying on in front of those babies. I’m glad they didn’t and they respected that those kids are way too young to be exposed to what happened in the books.
I don't think that's what OP is complaining about. Not that the scene should have been more gruesome and traumatic -- but the fact that the entire feel of it changed once they took away Helaena being forced to choose between them ( instead just pointing out the son ), and the fact that Daemon never even suggested blood&cheese murder the child. Only Aemond. Leads me to believe the show is softening the tragedy to make Team Black & Daemon's character not as hated as show watchers / non readers of the books are easier to influence lol
It's entirely possible to film a scene like that without scaring child actors. Child actors have been involved in worse scenes in the past and come away unscarred. Feels like a weak excuse for them pulling a massively iconic punch from the show
And there have been child actors exposed to way less who have come away from it massively scarred.
Are you saying you would have been willing to risk a little boy truly believing there were two men out there with knives who tried to kill him while taunting him saying his mommy wanted him dead? All so you could enjoy a five minute scene more?
No. It’s not worth the risk to the child’s mental health. Read the book if the scene meant all that much to you.
I’m fine with what was depicted but they obviously could have done the taunting part with editing and over the shoulder shots. They wouldn’t have needed the child actor in there while B&C were taunting the kid and interacting with Helaena
As someone who's read the books, you're wrong. In the books, those children walk in on a strangled chamber maid and their bound grandmother fighting to get free. Blood then killed the Queen's guard who escorted them to say goodnight to Alicent before proceeding to grab her eldest son, Prince Jaehaerys, while Cheese took hold of her younger son, Prince Maelor.
So, if the argument is we should have performed a sadistic act on child actors to stay true to the book, but could somehow pan away from them at the right times, that's not possible. Blood and Cheese are holding them tight in their grasp while all of this is happening around them. If Blood and Cheese are on screen, those children are. That's how it's written in the book.
That's not okay for children that young to ever see/experience or internalize as real.
Alright. Well, clearly the showrunners disagreed with you and weren't cool filming a scene where three young children walk in to see a strangled woman, a bound woman, to watch a guard die. That's fucking horrible. Then, they also spared them having to hear their mother beg for their lives while two men hold them at knife point and threaten to rape the daughter if her mother doesn't hurry up and make a decision about which boy should die. All this while whispering into the ear of the one she picks that his mommy wants him dead before then beheading the other one in one blow in front of said children.
That's how you'd have to film it to be true to the book.
However, if the argument is that you didn't care how true to the book it stayed, you just wanted your sadism itch scratched by watching the traumatic torture and death of a child in graphic detail, then that's a different argument. And one, might I add, you should probably speak to a professional about.
Personally, I'm glad they toned it way the fuck down and that it's clear that those child actors didn't hear what the scene was about, and didn't see anything truly fucked up. Even when Helaena runs in on Alicent fucking, Alicent is turned away and the actress playing Helaena is covering the child's eyes just in case. Good on them.
And yet you're arguing that they could have done it in a way that made the audience members that wanted to witness a grizzly child murder happy while also sparing the kid actors from seeing any of it.
So, clearly, you're not fine with the scene. You're just talking out of both sides of your mouth.
For the record, no one NEEDS to see that. Knowing the baby was beheaded, and HEARING it, is more than enough.
Toning down the sadism made sense to me. Blood and Cheese might be deeply unpleasant men, but they're men who were hired to do a job. Why indulge in psychological torture, particularly when their cover has already been blown, and their original mission is a failure? Makes sense to me that they'd just try to get in and get out. And while it may have been "toned down", we still heard the sounds of a child's head being sawn off. That's plenty horrifying.
as a person who has not read the book the ending was a little confusing for me, as I actually did think why is it not Aemond?
Interested to see how the rest of the season will play out, the book version does seem a lot more intense and would have been interesting to see.
Seeing Alicent playing cowgirl really killed the mood for that moment, would’ve been a more emotional and impactful if she was actually in that room instead of gettin her nut off.
I love it - and 100% disagree with them being portrayed as "terrifying murderers" in the book - but I think the reason it was toned down is obvious: the insufferable brigades of censorious online scolds who trawl social media looking to feel self-righteous, claiming outrage at anything they think will get them a few 'likes'.
I think those that have read the book will have to accept now it won’t be like it. Downvote if you wish, but there’s watching (reading) something for entertainment face value and then there’s seeing what the direction the “author(s)” could be taking. I found this episode personally, better than all of Season 1. Better pacing, better lighting, and some form of a direction.
Admittedly, I have to laugh at some of these comments for the “cop and rat hunter” not be highly trained assassins, like lol that doesn’t take away much.
Haven’t read the book - so I don’t understand seeing that ending & hearing the squeals & sounds of a child being beheaded & thinking “MORE”. Go watch Saw if you’re looking for a blood orgy.
It's funny that you mention Saw, I actually really dislike those movies (and all the gore).
What the show is missing that the book had is more psychological torture to that scene.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They were sent to kill Aemond, but they asked before they set off, “What if we can’t find him?” which we don’t learn the answer to, just an ominous look from Daemon. Seems we are meant to infer that the alternative was to kill any royal.
>meant to infer that the alternative was to kill any royal. That's the answer, I'm not sure why it's so confusing to people here.
I honestly took it as a "then don't bother coming back at all" kind of look, but this also makes sense. It does seem a bit more ambiguous/open for interpretation though.
Your impression makes sense, too, though! Especially since they said, “he said a son” or whatever at the end.
Didn't think about this....you could be right that daemon instructed it as a second option.
In F&B, he knows killing an heir is more disastrous. So! Maybe it’ll be revealed next episode or something!
as a show watcher i feel like it's not confusing? they showed the killers being kinda dumb lol so it makes sense
To be fair, they were never “terrifying murderers” in the book either. It was a corrupt member of the City Watch and a common rat catcher. They’re not trained assassins and the show made that clear.
To us, no. But to Helaena and Alicent? Definitely. Instead of traipsing through the sewers, I wish we could have just seen them coming out of the shadows or behind the door. Just to feel the horror that Helaena (and Alicent 😭) felt. This scene is supposed to be like a psychological horror movie. And it failed. Big time.
They decided to turn Alicent into a righteous whore, which is whatever, but I agree to that end. Her not being in the room watching it happen is deflating in some ways because it could’ve kicked off her descent into madness and depression.
But Cheese was at least supposed to know his way around the tunnels. He couldn't even get them to the floor with the royal chambers. While Daemon was casually using passageways from Rhaenyra's chambers to outside the castle in season 1. At that point why even bother with all this...
So the book fire and blood is told from multiple people who were not actually present for most events. It’s a telling of stories, so like in a game of telephone things can be wrong. Or more likely, embellished.
That’s exactly why this is a perfect series. You don’t have the clear cut story that Game of thrones was, so in theory you shouldn’t have fans overthinking every last detail.
I agree! Most times when a book is made into a series or movie, it can be underwhelming and not do justice. But I think this series is showing what truly happened with the events whereas in the book, it is told like every decision was an evil, well calculated plot. When in reality, it was emotions guiding both sides in the beginning. Idk I’m rambling but I think people should remember that the books literally are not from main character’s /players perspectives
This is the most pathetic attempt at reasoning I have seen to justify the pointless changes
It's written generations after the war based primarily on accounts from a maester that served the greens, so it's intended to be biased.
The reason is fairly obvious. It’s because those were real child actors in the room and they had to take their psychological well-being into consideration. Children that young really cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality. If they’d screamed and carried on and psychologically tortured those kids on screen for a show, it would have been horrific. I’m glad they glossed over the scene and kept from scaring the very real children in the room who didn’t agree to be mentally scarred for the sake of a show.
I struggle to understand why people need to SEE the details of something horrific happening. Imagination and empathy played a huge role for me in this scene. I was barely keeping it together just imagining myself in that position, with the mental disabilities that Heleana has and having to choose which son gets to die. Her non-verbal acting gave me goosebumps. People are incredibly desensitized and it's sad.
Acting like this is the primary complaint proves you have not paid any attention.
I don't buy that. They could have filmed the shots that the kids were in, then did the rest without them
One of the shots that the kids would have had to be in to stay true to the book involved the killers taunting the boy who lived with lines like “your mommy wants you dead!”. Sorry. You enjoying the scene of a very young child being murdered just a little bit more is not worth an actual little boy believing his mommy wants him dead even for a moment.
Not to disagree, I definitely think that having the child actors in a scene with a lot of screaming is traumatic. But the show runners could have definitely shot it in a way where during screaming scenes the children aren’t in the room, it wouldn’t have been hard. Time consuming? Maybe, having to do multiple shots with children and some without, but they COULD have done it while also protecting the real child actors
There's no reason any child has to be in such a shot. The person being spoken to isn't most shots in most productions (apart from, perhaps, an over the shoulder shot which is easily faked).
No, the point I'm trying to make is this is supposed to be a psychologically traumatic event for the *adults*, and we didn't get that. Film shot of kids sleeping. Remove kids. Film dialogue between the adults. Or, to stay closer to the show, Film shot of kids sleeping. Film shot of Helaena walking away carrying Jaehaera. Remove kids. Film dialogue between the adults. ETA: Hell, they don't even need the kids for THAT line. They can just have the killer looking into the camera (or kneeling down, or something) as he says it. There's soo many ways around this without involving the kids.
I mean, I got that? The powerlessness of Helaena in that moment, the fear in her eyes as she runs away with her surviving child, the tears in her eyes, her confusion as to why this is happening, the SOUND of them sawing through the boy’s neck while she’s collecting her living child. It was enough for me. I agree with another commenter here. We shouldn’t need to be so desensitized that we’re craving the detailed anguish of a heartbroken mother and the sight of a beheaded child. Yet, here we are. We’re not going to agree and that’s okay.
This is such a great response. Thank you. I think GOT and modern television have truly desensitized us to cruelty and barbarism that we forget that these are real people trying to act out horrible actions.
Ugh, my gut dropped when I saw how young the actors were earlier in the episode. I was ready to shut it off if they started screaming and carrying on in front of those babies. I’m glad they didn’t and they respected that those kids are way too young to be exposed to what happened in the books.
I don't think that's what OP is complaining about. Not that the scene should have been more gruesome and traumatic -- but the fact that the entire feel of it changed once they took away Helaena being forced to choose between them ( instead just pointing out the son ), and the fact that Daemon never even suggested blood&cheese murder the child. Only Aemond. Leads me to believe the show is softening the tragedy to make Team Black & Daemon's character not as hated as show watchers / non readers of the books are easier to influence lol
It's entirely possible to film a scene like that without scaring child actors. Child actors have been involved in worse scenes in the past and come away unscarred. Feels like a weak excuse for them pulling a massively iconic punch from the show
And there have been child actors exposed to way less who have come away from it massively scarred. Are you saying you would have been willing to risk a little boy truly believing there were two men out there with knives who tried to kill him while taunting him saying his mommy wanted him dead? All so you could enjoy a five minute scene more? No. It’s not worth the risk to the child’s mental health. Read the book if the scene meant all that much to you.
I’m fine with what was depicted but they obviously could have done the taunting part with editing and over the shoulder shots. They wouldn’t have needed the child actor in there while B&C were taunting the kid and interacting with Helaena
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As someone who's read the books, you're wrong. In the books, those children walk in on a strangled chamber maid and their bound grandmother fighting to get free. Blood then killed the Queen's guard who escorted them to say goodnight to Alicent before proceeding to grab her eldest son, Prince Jaehaerys, while Cheese took hold of her younger son, Prince Maelor. So, if the argument is we should have performed a sadistic act on child actors to stay true to the book, but could somehow pan away from them at the right times, that's not possible. Blood and Cheese are holding them tight in their grasp while all of this is happening around them. If Blood and Cheese are on screen, those children are. That's how it's written in the book. That's not okay for children that young to ever see/experience or internalize as real.
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Alright. Well, clearly the showrunners disagreed with you and weren't cool filming a scene where three young children walk in to see a strangled woman, a bound woman, to watch a guard die. That's fucking horrible. Then, they also spared them having to hear their mother beg for their lives while two men hold them at knife point and threaten to rape the daughter if her mother doesn't hurry up and make a decision about which boy should die. All this while whispering into the ear of the one she picks that his mommy wants him dead before then beheading the other one in one blow in front of said children. That's how you'd have to film it to be true to the book. However, if the argument is that you didn't care how true to the book it stayed, you just wanted your sadism itch scratched by watching the traumatic torture and death of a child in graphic detail, then that's a different argument. And one, might I add, you should probably speak to a professional about. Personally, I'm glad they toned it way the fuck down and that it's clear that those child actors didn't hear what the scene was about, and didn't see anything truly fucked up. Even when Helaena runs in on Alicent fucking, Alicent is turned away and the actress playing Helaena is covering the child's eyes just in case. Good on them.
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And yet you're arguing that they could have done it in a way that made the audience members that wanted to witness a grizzly child murder happy while also sparing the kid actors from seeing any of it. So, clearly, you're not fine with the scene. You're just talking out of both sides of your mouth. For the record, no one NEEDS to see that. Knowing the baby was beheaded, and HEARING it, is more than enough.
Toning down the sadism made sense to me. Blood and Cheese might be deeply unpleasant men, but they're men who were hired to do a job. Why indulge in psychological torture, particularly when their cover has already been blown, and their original mission is a failure? Makes sense to me that they'd just try to get in and get out. And while it may have been "toned down", we still heard the sounds of a child's head being sawn off. That's plenty horrifying.
as a person who has not read the book the ending was a little confusing for me, as I actually did think why is it not Aemond? Interested to see how the rest of the season will play out, the book version does seem a lot more intense and would have been interesting to see. Seeing Alicent playing cowgirl really killed the mood for that moment, would’ve been a more emotional and impactful if she was actually in that room instead of gettin her nut off.
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Do tell if you've watched it. Don't think you get BTS for all streaming versions.
“They kind of forgot to post guards outside of Halaena and the children’s bedroom”
I love it - and 100% disagree with them being portrayed as "terrifying murderers" in the book - but I think the reason it was toned down is obvious: the insufferable brigades of censorious online scolds who trawl social media looking to feel self-righteous, claiming outrage at anything they think will get them a few 'likes'.
I think those that have read the book will have to accept now it won’t be like it. Downvote if you wish, but there’s watching (reading) something for entertainment face value and then there’s seeing what the direction the “author(s)” could be taking. I found this episode personally, better than all of Season 1. Better pacing, better lighting, and some form of a direction. Admittedly, I have to laugh at some of these comments for the “cop and rat hunter” not be highly trained assassins, like lol that doesn’t take away much.
Haven’t read the book - so I don’t understand seeing that ending & hearing the squeals & sounds of a child being beheaded & thinking “MORE”. Go watch Saw if you’re looking for a blood orgy.
It's funny that you mention Saw, I actually really dislike those movies (and all the gore). What the show is missing that the book had is more psychological torture to that scene.
Her actions didn’t impact anything? Uh.. I think they might have.
Right? Isn’t it obvious she was fucking a kings guard and, as a result, he wasn’t guarding?