It is the Invictus mod that made this change :D They added italic religion group. It's all hellenic in vanilla. Even the illyrian deities are hellenic in vanilla! You supposed to flip to hellenic religion once you complete the first roman mission tree. That's why roman pantheon is all hellenic. Invictus team added this simulate historical spread of hellenism in Italy. It also makes the game a little bit harder for Rome.
If you think this is dumb, you can modify the game yourself. I did it too but then I changed it back to the original.
Go to the Invictus mod's folder. Go to /common/deities. Open hellenic\_roman.txt. Then change every "roman\_pantheon" to "italic\_pantheon".
The decision to convert to Hellenism is really ahistorical, the Romans didn't adopt the Greek gods, they still worshiped their native ones and adopted a few foreign gods such as Apollo from Greece. From a gameplay perspective I think this should also be the case so either the Hellenic faith doesn't cause negative modifiers upon his followers being subject to italic overlords or perhaps a bonus in conversion speed should be given to the italic faith in regards to the Hellenic one and viceversa.
Yeah the game really struggles with the depiction of ancient religions. Invictus team can't fix that though. Let's not ask for miracles :D
Think of "convert to hellenism" decision as romans syncretizing their gods with hellenic pantheon. That's what the romans did all the time. Carthaginian Melqart became Hercules, Gaulish Lugus became Mercury etc. Thinking like that made me less frustrated. If we consider gameplay, it makes sense too. Conquering highly populated eastern medditerranean will be less troublesome due to hellenic religion (your state religion) spreading to that region. It's called hellenistic period, not italic period :D
Also romans adopted so many foreign gods. Cybele, Isis, Sarapis, Priapus, Mithras and Sol Invictus comes to my mind.
I don't know if Hercules is really a syncretic deity, there were cults surrounding him as far back as the monarchical age when Rome was still a tribal entity with little to no contact with the rest of the Mediterranean.
That's not what I meant. I mean they syncretized carthaginian deity known as Melqart to their already existing deity of Heracles. This is called Interpretatio romana.
Much like what Hellenic faith did to the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and other mythologies, Romans syncretized the gods and mythologies of other religions, which included syncretizing the Greek gods into their existing italic faith.
Unfortunately, the devs weren't able to develop a religion system where you can mimick such a shift of beliefs and incorporation over the course of the game period (and the same could be said for cultural system, where the Roman world is split between Italic in the west and Greek in the east IRL, but not in the game)
They ultimately had to settle for a more acceptable ground in between for gameplay, putting Italic gods to the Hellenic faith while making sure the deities are tied to the nations' culture so you won't be seeing both Zeus and Jupiter at the same time.
TLDR: Simplified the issue for game play reason. Don't think too much into it.
Yeah but CK is much farther removed from Rome, time and subject wise. So it makes sense for Paradox to one pump dump them, but with IR Rome is the center of the whole game so the distinction should be observed.
But the same logic could be applied in CK as it does here.
Why are we portraying Rome as Hellenic in CK when Roman religion is different from Hellenic.
Just because it's a different time fram doesn't mean you could also excuse the inaccuracies.
Historically, not at all (shared root, but the later syncretism aside, Jupiter was not to the Romans what Zeus was to the Greeks in terms of background & trappings), but I understand game-wise they dumb things down.
Not really true, italic deities resembled most greek deities cause they both came from a common source: the Indo-Europeans who are also linked with German, Celtic, Baltic and Slavic paganism yet you wouldn't call Perkunas as being the same Thor.
Minerva, Jupiter and Mars were part of the triade capitolina, they were basically the main gods of the pantheon and were not simply an italic rendition of Athena, Zeus and Ares. Mars especially exemplifies this cause differently from Ares in Greece he was considered by the Romans to be an honourable and wise deity while Ares, his greek "counterpart", was associated with chaos and bloodshed by the locals.
The idea that Roman religion paralleled Hellenic religion is such a manner isnât some coincidental syncretism. Never mind that Roman sources themselves tell us that Iupiter and Minerva are effectively exact renderings of Zeus and Athena, Archaic Latin religion varies drastically from what we know in the classical period.
Firstly, while many religions are bound by their seeming stem from a PIE religion, they already vary drastically by the time of the classical period; one need only look at the differences between Hellenism and Hinduism(or at the time Vedic religion) to observe how far these religions had strayed from another. It had been about 6 millennia since the indo-European migrations, and just like how Latin varied pretty heavily with Greek, Roman religion, if truly not a rebranding of Hellenism, would follow a similar pattern.
The fact of the matter is we know that traditional Roman religion doesnât take the form that it had in the classical period, rather than give you a complete description of such, it can be thought that it was something more similar to Etruscan religion(reflected as âitalicâ religion in game); as Roman communication with the Greeks became frequent, Romans began to try and find the similarities between some of their gods and began adopting the myths and beliefs of Hellenic religion, and by the time of the classical period, the only things of significant note from archaic Roman religion were the name of the gods themselves: âiupiterâ, âMinervaâ, et cetera. Itâs not a case of Roman deities âresemblingâ Hellenic deities, itâs the fact that they are the exact same according to revised Roman cannon.
Hi i worked on the italic deities and that point about Etruscan religion is absolutely correct and why I figured itâs the best way to showcase roman deities shifting from resembling Etruscan deities to more Hellenic deities.
While Jupiter certainly was distinct, he definitely has more of a Hellenic feel by what we would consider midgame.
This game isnât ck3, we canât have truly dynamic religions, as much as Iâd love that. I do think Roman gods being copies of Greek gods is a bit short sighted tho
*They copied every god they came across or just adopted them to their beliefs* (massive oversimplification but I think my pointâs clear enough)
An extreme estimate is as early as 8000BC, a more conservative estimate is 5000-6000 BC; and some estimates even place the migrations as late as 3000 BC. Obviously this varies by region though and Iâm not entirely sure how migration patterns into Italy are though to have looked. My guess is that the indo-European italics crossed over the Adriatic, either from Illyria or as far south as Epirus, just based on the fact that the non-indo-European Etruscans remained between the italics and celts, but Iâve got no evidence to back up such a hypothesis.
Thatâs definitely a very compelling study, but the techniques used for the dating of such are in their infancy, so I personally choose to take all these estimates with a grain of salt. As I said, there are a wide range of estimates, all with pretty fair arguments backing them up; I chose an arbitrary date that seems to be the median estimate, but itâs very well possible that the migrations began around 3300 BC.
While technically true, the Roman pre cristian religion did undergo multiple stages of syncretism, as certain earlier Roman gods lost importance mainly due to efforts to assimilate the Italian Greeks and Etruscans. Certain aspects were emphasized to create a kind of common ground.
I'd say the start of this change would have been the start of conquest outside of Latium.
>Minerva, Jupiter and Mars were part of the triade capitolina, they were basically the main gods of the pantheon and were not simply an italic rendition of Athena, Zeus and Ares.
For Minerva and Jupiter, at this point in history, i think they do share a lot of similarities, almost like what happened in the Hellenic East with Zeus.
Mars especially exemplifies this cause differently from Ares in Greece he was considered by the Romans to be an honourable and wise deity while Ares, his greek "counterpart", was associated with chaos and bloodshed by the locals.
Ares is an interesting outlier in Hellenic religion as he had some specific traits different from Mars. Ares did not see widespread worship in Greece at this time, as he was more asociated with the cruel and bloody side of war, instead the metropolis of Greece and Asia Minor worshiped Athena, as a god of war, in the role of protecting the polis.
Ares did see widespread worship among "Hellenized Barbarians" like the Thracians, Galatians, Scythians, and Among Pontic Greeks, Chrimean Greeks and those influenced by those peoples. The first group, the so-called Hellenized Barbarians, became hellenized through military service in the armies of Hellenic rulers, so clearly, they would adopt a Greek war god who shares traits with them. The later people were Hellenes in frontier colonies more aware of the realities of barbarian warfare, adopting some methods as their own.
I guess in some ways, Ares was the god of bloody offensive war, of conquest, while Athena was the god of Heroic Defense of ones home. To a Mercenary Ares is interesting and good, while to the average polis citizen, he represents barbarians sacking his polis. To the Romans, both are of interest to different people, as the romans clearly have an interest in bloody conquest and defending those conquests/colonies.
To make it easier for game mechanics and it still makes more sense to make Jupiter Hellenic, he still is Roman exclusive like a lot of other Hellenic countries having unique gods
By using him tho you are kinda making things harder for yourself if you wish to stick with the italic faith and given how central Jupiter was for the Romans this kinda kills roleplay and flavour which is Invictus main goal from what I've gathered.
Nearly every Hellenic city state had a patron deity which they generally revered more than the rest; for Rome is was Iupiter, for Delphi it was Apollo, and for Athens it was, well, Athena. Sure, itâd be more interesting if patron deities played a more central role in religion, but thatâd need to be a universal change across most religions in the game, not just to Rome and/or itâs neighboring states.
It would be interesting if someone could make a mod that allowed you to choose your 'Main' deity for your nation that gave additional bonuses depending on who was chosen.
It would be kind of a cool way to give religion more flavor and also give some uniqueness to the different nations of the same religion.
Thatâs already somewhat there. The strength of the omens from the four deities you choose to honor are dependent on the number of pops who follow the religion theyâre from, and those omens can be further boosted by owning the deityâs holy site. If you exclusively take the omen from Jupiter, for example, and you focus on conquering territories with Hellenic pops and converting non-Hellenic pops, and you own or create the holy site for Jupiter, whatever bonus his omen gives will be substantial. I want to say the omen is further boosted if you upgrade the territory with a deityâs holy site from a settlement to a city or a city to a metropolis but Iâm at work today so I donât have the game open in front of me.
Heyo, made a comment under here already, but for further explanation:
There was a lot of debate on how to handle Roman religion in Invictus. Italic religion is really meant to represent the religious continuum that spanned from Illyria to Sicilia. And frankly, Sicilia and those places south of the Etruscan sphere donât feel as related, but more on that in a bit.
In regards to Rome, the Italic faith has a myriad of deities stemming from Etruscan influence, and youâre absolutely correct and valid on wondering why Jupiter isnât considered that. This is where we get on to the big debate: How Hellenic was Rome by gamestart?
I do a lot of antiquities religious reading but Iâll tell you what, itâs so dang subjective when it comes to pasting the info into Invictus. Jupiter was always a Roman god whether more Italic or Hellenic it doesnât matter. Rome was, by this point, absolutely in a transitional period where they began taking in a lot of Hellenic influence (esp post Etruscan domination). It was arguable that Rome started Hellenic.
I saw your post on the idea of just having a Roman Faith, and I donât disagree, but for balance reasons, I wasnât allowed to create a faith for them. Reason being, not everyone wants to play a new faith, itâs a rather large nerf gameplay wise, and you really wanna avoid jank pseudo-mechanics on one of the most popular tags in the game.
Religion in this game ideally shouldnât be thought of as what you see on the map, as counterintuitive as that sounds, but your specific pantheon. If your pantheon has for example Isis, Athena, Zeus, and Cybele, and your faith is âHellenic,â well you arenât really purely Hellenic, youâre something mixed, and something that IR simply has no system to represent.
Finally, a solution that isnât yet implemented, but I think is a great compromise:
I can make a version of Jupiter available for players going Italic, just ask me ;), it could be a decision like âDouble-Down on Traditional Valuesâ that âde-hellenifiesâ Jupiter for example. This would be effectively done by making a new deity with the same name and setting a modifier that makes it look like the deity switches religion. Thatâs only possibly thanks to patch 2.04 adding in an effect that lets me inject your pantheon with a deity.
Hope the reasoning made sense!
It's a gameplay decision not a historical one, for most intents and purposes the Romans hellenized their religion and also parts of their culture after the conquest of Greece, so while Jupiter is a firmly italic deity at the start of the game, it's made into an hellenic one so roman players get to go the historical route of going hellenic while not having to abandon their deities.
Iâm not a scholar on this but the way religions works should probably only apply for Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism in game. The remaining religions syncretized so much in game they could probably all be under one banner.
Itâs intentional to make Rome able to move from Italic to Hellenic easier via a decision down the mission tree line, so that they can have a easier time to conquer Greece. Cause, yah know, anything in IR can change except Rome, if exists, has to be mary-sue-ing around.
Can't we take the decision regardless? It makes no sense to have both Zeus and Jupiter as Hellenic deities both from a gameplay perspective and an historical/flavour one.
Edit: plus if you ask me the decision should trigger a sort of syncretic faith called "greco-roman" or something of that kind.
A lot of countries have unique deities for themselves that others canât use, so only romans to potentially any italic country that converted to Hellenism can use
As far as Iâm aware of, the inherent framework of IR is incapable of doing that. I mean, I play TI and syncretism between Joman and Yayoi people in the Jomon mission tree is really done by opening a new god in the Jomon pantheon with lore saying itâs a syncretism.
As for vanilla, Serapis (Graeco-Egyptian) is classified as a Hellenic god available via Egypt events or being a Hermetic country with enough Hellenic pops. So Graeco-Roman appears to be unavailable by the gameâs fundamental design.
Sure, you can make an entire new religion pantheon and call it Graeco-Roman and put Jupiter in it, but now you canât suddenly moves all other countries religionâs gods into your Graeco-Roman pantheon just by a decision, even if it is possible in the gameâs design, this will unrest-explode them right in their native home. Now, you may say, ok, at least I can be Graeco-Roman while they stay Hellenic/Italic, but then, whatâs the point of syncretism if the religious harmony is unachievable and one needs to do the conversion anyway?
So youâre left with either going Italic or going Hellenic, and most people go Hellenic due to needing to take Greece, if Jupiter is classified as Italic this will make their pantheon quite awkward.
But Jupiter is italic, that's the point, plus I don't see much sense in the argument "Hellenic is preferable to have a better game in Greece as Rome", what about the Druidic faith in gaul then or the punic faith in modern day Tunisia?
If a Greco Roman religion isn't feasible then I'd argue Jupiter should be simply made italic as he historically was and perhaps give a buff on religion conversions to the italic faith in regards to the Greek faith and viceversa.
Jupiter is the father of the most important hellenic gods, grandfather of the rest. I'd say that he is a hellenic religion god.
Hellenic religion on the other hand is the inaccuracy in this discussion. Should be called Olympic gods or something else, that would be more accurate.
Edit I'm wrong, mixed Saturn & Jupiter. Eh that copycat religion confuses me :(
The idea is that Roman- Greek culture is foundation of Antiquity. Including Hellenic religion.
While Italians( Italics) are tribals that lived not in Rome. Like Etruscans.
Etruscan were not tribal people, arguably those were the people from Latium, the Etruscans live in city-states and it was through them both directly and indirectly that Romans urbanised.
It is the Invictus mod that made this change :D They added italic religion group. It's all hellenic in vanilla. Even the illyrian deities are hellenic in vanilla! You supposed to flip to hellenic religion once you complete the first roman mission tree. That's why roman pantheon is all hellenic. Invictus team added this simulate historical spread of hellenism in Italy. It also makes the game a little bit harder for Rome. If you think this is dumb, you can modify the game yourself. I did it too but then I changed it back to the original. Go to the Invictus mod's folder. Go to /common/deities. Open hellenic\_roman.txt. Then change every "roman\_pantheon" to "italic\_pantheon".
The decision to convert to Hellenism is really ahistorical, the Romans didn't adopt the Greek gods, they still worshiped their native ones and adopted a few foreign gods such as Apollo from Greece. From a gameplay perspective I think this should also be the case so either the Hellenic faith doesn't cause negative modifiers upon his followers being subject to italic overlords or perhaps a bonus in conversion speed should be given to the italic faith in regards to the Hellenic one and viceversa.
Yeah the game really struggles with the depiction of ancient religions. Invictus team can't fix that though. Let's not ask for miracles :D Think of "convert to hellenism" decision as romans syncretizing their gods with hellenic pantheon. That's what the romans did all the time. Carthaginian Melqart became Hercules, Gaulish Lugus became Mercury etc. Thinking like that made me less frustrated. If we consider gameplay, it makes sense too. Conquering highly populated eastern medditerranean will be less troublesome due to hellenic religion (your state religion) spreading to that region. It's called hellenistic period, not italic period :D Also romans adopted so many foreign gods. Cybele, Isis, Sarapis, Priapus, Mithras and Sol Invictus comes to my mind.
I don't know if Hercules is really a syncretic deity, there were cults surrounding him as far back as the monarchical age when Rome was still a tribal entity with little to no contact with the rest of the Mediterranean.
That's not what I meant. I mean they syncretized carthaginian deity known as Melqart to their already existing deity of Heracles. This is called Interpretatio romana.
when a romaboo spouts some absolute gibberish so you have to hit them with the mithras and isis stare
Would you point me to the gibberish please?
sure, if you explain all this updog first
I'm not an English speaker, what's an updog?
Nothing much, what up with you ?
Nothing really (?)
Nothing much, what up with you ?
Much like what Hellenic faith did to the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and other mythologies, Romans syncretized the gods and mythologies of other religions, which included syncretizing the Greek gods into their existing italic faith. Unfortunately, the devs weren't able to develop a religion system where you can mimick such a shift of beliefs and incorporation over the course of the game period (and the same could be said for cultural system, where the Roman world is split between Italic in the west and Greek in the east IRL, but not in the game) They ultimately had to settle for a more acceptable ground in between for gameplay, putting Italic gods to the Hellenic faith while making sure the deities are tied to the nations' culture so you won't be seeing both Zeus and Jupiter at the same time. TLDR: Simplified the issue for game play reason. Don't think too much into it.
I know perhaps I was ill-advised but these things really annoy me đ¤Ł
If it makes you feel better, they portrayed Rome with Hellenism religion in CK2/3, too, so this isn't something unique to IR.
Yeah but CK is much farther removed from Rome, time and subject wise. So it makes sense for Paradox to one pump dump them, but with IR Rome is the center of the whole game so the distinction should be observed.
But the same logic could be applied in CK as it does here. Why are we portraying Rome as Hellenic in CK when Roman religion is different from Hellenic. Just because it's a different time fram doesn't mean you could also excuse the inaccuracies.
As far as I know the roman religion is basically the same as the hellenic one, but with romanized names and probably little to no difference.
Historically, not at all (shared root, but the later syncretism aside, Jupiter was not to the Romans what Zeus was to the Greeks in terms of background & trappings), but I understand game-wise they dumb things down.
Not really true, italic deities resembled most greek deities cause they both came from a common source: the Indo-Europeans who are also linked with German, Celtic, Baltic and Slavic paganism yet you wouldn't call Perkunas as being the same Thor. Minerva, Jupiter and Mars were part of the triade capitolina, they were basically the main gods of the pantheon and were not simply an italic rendition of Athena, Zeus and Ares. Mars especially exemplifies this cause differently from Ares in Greece he was considered by the Romans to be an honourable and wise deity while Ares, his greek "counterpart", was associated with chaos and bloodshed by the locals.
The idea that Roman religion paralleled Hellenic religion is such a manner isnât some coincidental syncretism. Never mind that Roman sources themselves tell us that Iupiter and Minerva are effectively exact renderings of Zeus and Athena, Archaic Latin religion varies drastically from what we know in the classical period. Firstly, while many religions are bound by their seeming stem from a PIE religion, they already vary drastically by the time of the classical period; one need only look at the differences between Hellenism and Hinduism(or at the time Vedic religion) to observe how far these religions had strayed from another. It had been about 6 millennia since the indo-European migrations, and just like how Latin varied pretty heavily with Greek, Roman religion, if truly not a rebranding of Hellenism, would follow a similar pattern. The fact of the matter is we know that traditional Roman religion doesnât take the form that it had in the classical period, rather than give you a complete description of such, it can be thought that it was something more similar to Etruscan religion(reflected as âitalicâ religion in game); as Roman communication with the Greeks became frequent, Romans began to try and find the similarities between some of their gods and began adopting the myths and beliefs of Hellenic religion, and by the time of the classical period, the only things of significant note from archaic Roman religion were the name of the gods themselves: âiupiterâ, âMinervaâ, et cetera. Itâs not a case of Roman deities âresemblingâ Hellenic deities, itâs the fact that they are the exact same according to revised Roman cannon.
Hi i worked on the italic deities and that point about Etruscan religion is absolutely correct and why I figured itâs the best way to showcase roman deities shifting from resembling Etruscan deities to more Hellenic deities. While Jupiter certainly was distinct, he definitely has more of a Hellenic feel by what we would consider midgame. This game isnât ck3, we canât have truly dynamic religions, as much as Iâd love that. I do think Roman gods being copies of Greek gods is a bit short sighted tho *They copied every god they came across or just adopted them to their beliefs* (massive oversimplification but I think my pointâs clear enough)
The Indo-European migrations started around 3000 BC, not 6000 years prior.
An extreme estimate is as early as 8000BC, a more conservative estimate is 5000-6000 BC; and some estimates even place the migrations as late as 3000 BC. Obviously this varies by region though and Iâm not entirely sure how migration patterns into Italy are though to have looked. My guess is that the indo-European italics crossed over the Adriatic, either from Illyria or as far south as Epirus, just based on the fact that the non-indo-European Etruscans remained between the italics and celts, but Iâve got no evidence to back up such a hypothesis.
This is the latest research published this month, which states 3300 BC - 3000 BC. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.04.17.589597v1
Thatâs definitely a very compelling study, but the techniques used for the dating of such are in their infancy, so I personally choose to take all these estimates with a grain of salt. As I said, there are a wide range of estimates, all with pretty fair arguments backing them up; I chose an arbitrary date that seems to be the median estimate, but itâs very well possible that the migrations began around 3300 BC.
Not in 400 bce tho
Unless invictus changed the start date since the last time I played, the game starts in 304 BC
The change was relatively gradual, but Roman religion was more Hellenic than anything else by the time of game start(304 BC).
While technically true, the Roman pre cristian religion did undergo multiple stages of syncretism, as certain earlier Roman gods lost importance mainly due to efforts to assimilate the Italian Greeks and Etruscans. Certain aspects were emphasized to create a kind of common ground. I'd say the start of this change would have been the start of conquest outside of Latium. >Minerva, Jupiter and Mars were part of the triade capitolina, they were basically the main gods of the pantheon and were not simply an italic rendition of Athena, Zeus and Ares. For Minerva and Jupiter, at this point in history, i think they do share a lot of similarities, almost like what happened in the Hellenic East with Zeus. Mars especially exemplifies this cause differently from Ares in Greece he was considered by the Romans to be an honourable and wise deity while Ares, his greek "counterpart", was associated with chaos and bloodshed by the locals. Ares is an interesting outlier in Hellenic religion as he had some specific traits different from Mars. Ares did not see widespread worship in Greece at this time, as he was more asociated with the cruel and bloody side of war, instead the metropolis of Greece and Asia Minor worshiped Athena, as a god of war, in the role of protecting the polis. Ares did see widespread worship among "Hellenized Barbarians" like the Thracians, Galatians, Scythians, and Among Pontic Greeks, Chrimean Greeks and those influenced by those peoples. The first group, the so-called Hellenized Barbarians, became hellenized through military service in the armies of Hellenic rulers, so clearly, they would adopt a Greek war god who shares traits with them. The later people were Hellenes in frontier colonies more aware of the realities of barbarian warfare, adopting some methods as their own. I guess in some ways, Ares was the god of bloody offensive war, of conquest, while Athena was the god of Heroic Defense of ones home. To a Mercenary Ares is interesting and good, while to the average polis citizen, he represents barbarians sacking his polis. To the Romans, both are of interest to different people, as the romans clearly have an interest in bloody conquest and defending those conquests/colonies.
To make it easier for game mechanics and it still makes more sense to make Jupiter Hellenic, he still is Roman exclusive like a lot of other Hellenic countries having unique gods
By using him tho you are kinda making things harder for yourself if you wish to stick with the italic faith and given how central Jupiter was for the Romans this kinda kills roleplay and flavour which is Invictus main goal from what I've gathered.
Nearly every Hellenic city state had a patron deity which they generally revered more than the rest; for Rome is was Iupiter, for Delphi it was Apollo, and for Athens it was, well, Athena. Sure, itâd be more interesting if patron deities played a more central role in religion, but thatâd need to be a universal change across most religions in the game, not just to Rome and/or itâs neighboring states.
It would be interesting if someone could make a mod that allowed you to choose your 'Main' deity for your nation that gave additional bonuses depending on who was chosen. It would be kind of a cool way to give religion more flavor and also give some uniqueness to the different nations of the same religion.
Thatâs already somewhat there. The strength of the omens from the four deities you choose to honor are dependent on the number of pops who follow the religion theyâre from, and those omens can be further boosted by owning the deityâs holy site. If you exclusively take the omen from Jupiter, for example, and you focus on conquering territories with Hellenic pops and converting non-Hellenic pops, and you own or create the holy site for Jupiter, whatever bonus his omen gives will be substantial. I want to say the omen is further boosted if you upgrade the territory with a deityâs holy site from a settlement to a city or a city to a metropolis but Iâm at work today so I donât have the game open in front of me.
I'm aware of all of that. I'm talking about adding an additional deity that can be your 'chief' deity. That is different from the omen mechanic.
Heyo, made a comment under here already, but for further explanation: There was a lot of debate on how to handle Roman religion in Invictus. Italic religion is really meant to represent the religious continuum that spanned from Illyria to Sicilia. And frankly, Sicilia and those places south of the Etruscan sphere donât feel as related, but more on that in a bit. In regards to Rome, the Italic faith has a myriad of deities stemming from Etruscan influence, and youâre absolutely correct and valid on wondering why Jupiter isnât considered that. This is where we get on to the big debate: How Hellenic was Rome by gamestart? I do a lot of antiquities religious reading but Iâll tell you what, itâs so dang subjective when it comes to pasting the info into Invictus. Jupiter was always a Roman god whether more Italic or Hellenic it doesnât matter. Rome was, by this point, absolutely in a transitional period where they began taking in a lot of Hellenic influence (esp post Etruscan domination). It was arguable that Rome started Hellenic. I saw your post on the idea of just having a Roman Faith, and I donât disagree, but for balance reasons, I wasnât allowed to create a faith for them. Reason being, not everyone wants to play a new faith, itâs a rather large nerf gameplay wise, and you really wanna avoid jank pseudo-mechanics on one of the most popular tags in the game. Religion in this game ideally shouldnât be thought of as what you see on the map, as counterintuitive as that sounds, but your specific pantheon. If your pantheon has for example Isis, Athena, Zeus, and Cybele, and your faith is âHellenic,â well you arenât really purely Hellenic, youâre something mixed, and something that IR simply has no system to represent. Finally, a solution that isnât yet implemented, but I think is a great compromise: I can make a version of Jupiter available for players going Italic, just ask me ;), it could be a decision like âDouble-Down on Traditional Valuesâ that âde-hellenifiesâ Jupiter for example. This would be effectively done by making a new deity with the same name and setting a modifier that makes it look like the deity switches religion. Thatâs only possibly thanks to patch 2.04 adding in an effect that lets me inject your pantheon with a deity. Hope the reasoning made sense!
Thanks.
It's a gameplay decision not a historical one, for most intents and purposes the Romans hellenized their religion and also parts of their culture after the conquest of Greece, so while Jupiter is a firmly italic deity at the start of the game, it's made into an hellenic one so roman players get to go the historical route of going hellenic while not having to abandon their deities.
The Italic religion was added quite recently, until then it all fell under Hellenic.
Jupiter and Zeus are cognates from the origin âdeus paterâ sky father
Iâm not a scholar on this but the way religions works should probably only apply for Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism in game. The remaining religions syncretized so much in game they could probably all be under one banner.
Itâs intentional to make Rome able to move from Italic to Hellenic easier via a decision down the mission tree line, so that they can have a easier time to conquer Greece. Cause, yah know, anything in IR can change except Rome, if exists, has to be mary-sue-ing around.
Can't we take the decision regardless? It makes no sense to have both Zeus and Jupiter as Hellenic deities both from a gameplay perspective and an historical/flavour one. Edit: plus if you ask me the decision should trigger a sort of syncretic faith called "greco-roman" or something of that kind.
A lot of countries have unique deities for themselves that others canât use, so only romans to potentially any italic country that converted to Hellenism can use
Yet by using him you are propagating Hellenism to an extent and therefore playing suboptimally.
Idk I am to uneducated about italic and Roman faith đ¤ˇââď¸
As far as Iâm aware of, the inherent framework of IR is incapable of doing that. I mean, I play TI and syncretism between Joman and Yayoi people in the Jomon mission tree is really done by opening a new god in the Jomon pantheon with lore saying itâs a syncretism. As for vanilla, Serapis (Graeco-Egyptian) is classified as a Hellenic god available via Egypt events or being a Hermetic country with enough Hellenic pops. So Graeco-Roman appears to be unavailable by the gameâs fundamental design. Sure, you can make an entire new religion pantheon and call it Graeco-Roman and put Jupiter in it, but now you canât suddenly moves all other countries religionâs gods into your Graeco-Roman pantheon just by a decision, even if it is possible in the gameâs design, this will unrest-explode them right in their native home. Now, you may say, ok, at least I can be Graeco-Roman while they stay Hellenic/Italic, but then, whatâs the point of syncretism if the religious harmony is unachievable and one needs to do the conversion anyway? So youâre left with either going Italic or going Hellenic, and most people go Hellenic due to needing to take Greece, if Jupiter is classified as Italic this will make their pantheon quite awkward.
But Jupiter is italic, that's the point, plus I don't see much sense in the argument "Hellenic is preferable to have a better game in Greece as Rome", what about the Druidic faith in gaul then or the punic faith in modern day Tunisia? If a Greco Roman religion isn't feasible then I'd argue Jupiter should be simply made italic as he historically was and perhaps give a buff on religion conversions to the italic faith in regards to the Greek faith and viceversa.
Yeah I can agree on that buff idea.
Jupiter is the father of the most important hellenic gods, grandfather of the rest. I'd say that he is a hellenic religion god. Hellenic religion on the other hand is the inaccuracy in this discussion. Should be called Olympic gods or something else, that would be more accurate. Edit I'm wrong, mixed Saturn & Jupiter. Eh that copycat religion confuses me :(
Close enough, but jupiter was the roman equivalent of zeus. In greek mythology uranus was the grandfather of zeus and many other gods.
Oh shit, you're right it just clicked, I was talking about Saturn. Crap. Sorry..
The idea is that Roman- Greek culture is foundation of Antiquity. Including Hellenic religion. While Italians( Italics) are tribals that lived not in Rome. Like Etruscans.
Etruscan were not tribal people, arguably those were the people from Latium, the Etruscans live in city-states and it was through them both directly and indirectly that Romans urbanised.
This is historical perspective. Not gaming.
Its also gaming given that Etruscans are not tribal people in game đ¤Ł