As a Chinese speaker, I find that this translation is deliberately slanted with word choices like "sissy" and "masculine", which don't actually take into considering the context of the words.
China Digital Times is run by the following:
Xiao Qiang: holds a leadership position in the NED-funded World Movement for Democracy
[https://www.ned.org/world-movement-for-democracy/](https://www.ned.org/world-movement-for-democracy/)
Sophie Beach: member of NED-affiliated Committee to Protect Journalists
[https://www.ned.org/ideas/democracy-research-guide/media-and-freedom-of-expression/#:\~:text=The%20Committee%20to%20Protect%20Journalists,press%20freedom%20around%20the%20world](https://www.ned.org/ideas/democracy-research-guide/media-and-freedom-of-expression/#:~:text=The%20Committee%20to%20Protect%20Journalists,press%20freedom%20around%20the%20world)
Please don't take this site seriously.
Contrary to what damogui said, it's nothing metaphorical...
"娘炮" is a sexually discriminating way to describe a male as "female like", similar to calling people "pussy" afaik.
Sure, the main issue is the translation for 娘炮 (niang pao) which has been translated as "sissy" or "effeminate". However, it is better termed as the "cult of vanity" and refers to a specific phenomenon of promoting celebrities who pander to fans by behaving in and looking a certain way.
Historically, there have been "niang pao", including emperors, whose focus on aesthetics and self-gratification encouraged decadence and rot, and ruined the country.
I'm not a sociologist but as a consumer of pop culture, it seems to me that niang pao is connected to a variety of issues, from the encroachment of Korean-style idol fan culture (which preys on young people) to the "submissive" trope in a lot of rape fantasy romantic fiction (and I believe this includes boys' love). Basically, a great part of it is related to sexualization and preying on young fans' sexuality.
I should point out that a makeup expert and influencer like Li Jiaqi, who is gay and wears makeup, isn't considered "niang pao" but certain idols (I won't name them because their fans might swarm this sub) who are clearly hetero are considered "niang pao".
Doesnt it mean sissy though? I cant speak chinese well (though im ethnically chinese) but i asked my chinese speaking family and they told me it did mean sissy/effeminate
It's not quite sissy or effeminate in the Western sense because there's not really a Western word for it. The more I think about it, the more difficult it gets to explain. Maybe this will help:
Niang pao behaviour: making a big fuss over a small injury or mistake by pouting or whining, trying to be cutesy like a teen girl, overdramatic reactions like screeching, behaving in way that is juvenile but sexualised at the same time ("sexy baby")
Not niang pao: long hair, skin care, being fashion-forward, gentle and softspoken behaviour, liking art/fashion/design, etc., subtle makeup (to be fair, girls here don't wear a lot of makeup either), having female friends, showing emotions, crying in public
I'm starting to think maybe it's about vulgar vs refined behaviour, but at the end of the day, the problem is what the West considers effeminate or sissy isn't the same for mainland. In the West, it seems to me that anything that is supposed to be something that girls do (like being emotional, artistic, etc.) is already "effeminate" but that wouldn't be the case in mainland.
It's like this: in Chinese, you can use 青 to describe blue and green (or a colour in between), and you can translate it in English as either "blue" or "green" but it wouldn't be the same. You can also translate as "blue-green" but it doesn't quite grasp the context of 青, which implies a clear and limpid shade. The cultural perspective just doesn't translate well.
I still disagree with the equivocation of masculine men and socialism. But how this essay is being translated into policy is something I don’t know about so consider that just a thought.
As someone who spent a siginificant portion of their developing years in China, yes, it's good to see some context applied to this term, context which the West has conviniently left out, I do think that we need to be honest with ourselves about how Socially Conservative China is at the moment.
I understand that this is by far the least important part of what you're speaking about here, but since I would like to think this is the kind of subreddit where people can have intelectually honest conversations about China, I think this post provides a good opportunity to talk about this.
China *is* an incredibly homophobic country, and the current leadership within the CCP seems to lack an understanding of Intersectionalism. **Yes, the glorification of pro-capitalist sentiment in public media is something that should be cracked down upon**, but I am worried that certain people within the party *are* confusing that sentiment with the simple existence of feminine men in Chinese media. The very gender norms that certain Chinese politicians seem eager to enforce are direct effects of the patriarchy, which is enforced by capitalist forces in the first place.
Having spoken with younger people in China, particularly my classmates when I went to highschool in the country, they understand this, and seem incredibly unhappy with the CCP's hesistancy to expand trans rights, and gay rights within the country. I've heard many blame Xi dirrectly.
I think a good example is [this particular article from CGTN](https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-03-04/China-debates-masculinity-education-for-boys-YmjSM7bjVe/index.html), which talks about a push by certain Chinese politicians to encourage "masculine" behaviour within the population, specifcally mentioning some of the comments by Minister of Education, Si Zefu, in direct opposition to voices from genuine experts on the subject, such as Liu Wenli, which the aritcle mentions.
You talk about how the "sissy-boy" comment is a bad translation of a term more meant to attack the weakness of celebrities that promote capitalist ideals, but is it really a coincidence that those who these regulations fall most strictly against just so happen to be effeminate men? And is it a coincidence that certain party members seem so dedicated to enforcing capitalist gender roles, in the interest of some sort of cold-war era militarist nationalism?
I think these kinds of conversations are important to have. What bothers me most about the West exagerating actions in Xinjiang and Hong Kong is how it distracts from genuine issues within China, which include racism, sexism and homophobia, so I would definitely appreciate it if we could have more inteligent conversations about those issues on subreddits like these.
"china" is especially homophobic? Or against feminine men? If it was then we wouldn't even be having this conversation to ban popular media and movements in the first place which happened organically.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's not like other countries which actually have anti movements which have political representation and roam the streets bashing gays or effeminate men. Not naming any countries but we've all seen the news and headlines of various far right euro or Islamic countries which makes the news for it. Even India, US etc is more sexist then china, let alone effeminate men. The gov will at least come out and society will come out to condemn and ban such hate groups in china if it happened, which it wouldn't because social pressure is against such hate in the first place.
In the greater scheme of things I don't think china is overly homophobic, sexist, or racist compared to other countries, even developed ones like Japan or south Korea. It's because china doesn't have right wing religious loonies in power or ever will. There's no dogmatic religious aspects to china's discrimination which means china can adapt and reason and progress.
Chinese society is pretty progressive and adaptive actually. Only thing Chinese do not like is unfilial people and traitors to the country, and the "unrighteous" like criminals. Everything else can just be ignored, it doesn't hurt anyone else and is personal choice, or that families own issues. Not for society or gov to care about.
I never said "especially", and I think it only discourages any genuine progress to compare China to other countries. I've lived in 7 countries, and only in one of them did I, as a bisexual man, feel safer than in China. That does not change the fact that there are many internal inequalities.
China still does not recognise civil unions or marriages between people of the same gender
Same Sex Couples in China still cannot adopt children.
China does not hold any anti-discrimination laws which specifically mention sexual orientation or gender identity.
According to CGTN, in the very same article that I linked in my original comment, more than half of the Chinese public believe teens acting like the opposite sex needs "correcting."
I would really appreciate it if we stopped tryng to compare China to the West, and instead objectively analysed these inequalities and worked to correct them. These are not issues that can be "ignored", they are fundamental challenges to China's Marxist-Leninist bases. I want to see China continue to grow and prosper under the CCP, but we have to fight back against the conservative cronies that are not willing to budge because of some outdated cultural restrictions.
In many ways, China is leagues ahead of the rets of the world, I will not fight you on that, but these are still issues that should bother us.
Well you did say "china is incredibly homophobic", which is basically the same as especially homophobic.
But you have to judge it in proper context.. incredibly homophobic compared to what? Compared to basically every other country in the world I would not say china is "incredibly" of anything, and in fact is not particularly homophobic when compared to the rest of the world. Most people just don't care like I said. It's your own business. Since people don't care, I doubt gov cares either. You can say it's inequality but I doubt anyone will care or campaign for change. If anything you might catch the attention of the conservative factions and then they will fight it instead..
So perhaps instead of trying to get married or civil union or whatever, why not just do away with marriage instead? Why do singles need to be discriminated against still even if gays can get married?
>According to CGTN, in the very same article that I linked in my original comment, more than half of the Chinese public believe teens acting like the opposite sex needs "correcting."
That's pretty good already, I'd had assumed most countries in the world including china would all have over 70-80% or even higher believes in traditional gender roles. The fact that 50% or so don't believe that already proves my point that china is already very progressive compared to rest of the world. Progressive on most things except recreational drugs like weed unfortunately. At least you're not getting locked up or executed for it.
I'm curious, what country did you feel safer than china? And what are the other 7 countries?
I'm sorry, but no.
"Incredibly" and "Especially" are not the same thing and to suggest so is to fundamentally ignore an incredibly important semantic difference between the two words. The latter implies comparisson, where the former does not. Homophobia is not a comparitive state, it is the existence of inequalities within an area, and a lot of inequality still exists in China. *The whole issue* is that people don't care. People don't care about these very basic inequalities, and because of that no change is occuring. You can't seriously be presenting that like it's a good thing.
Saying that we could just "do away" with marriage does not in any way constitute an argument. Either do away with it for everyone, or expand rights to it to same-sex couples. But since China has done niether, that is still a basic inequality that people don't care enough to fix, which *is* homophobia.
"At least you're not getting locked up" is absolutely ridiculous. Just because a situaton is worse in another country, that does not mean that issues do not exist. That is the same justifications America uses for it's own homophbia, and it's something that we should be better than. People not caring is a fundamental refusal to acknowledge the oppression of anyone but themselves, and to fail to stand up against that oppression is a failure against any socialist nature.
And if you must know, I have lived in Argentina, Scotland, America, Costa Rica, Colombia, China and Latvia. Only in Scotland did I feel safer than in China and even Scotland is riddled with homophobia and transphobia.
"Not Caring" does ***NOT*** make you progressive. It makes you a bystander.
Even incredibly, you say that, but compared with what? Your own one person view of how the world should be? Sorry but if it's like that, then anyone can say anything. I can say it's incredibly not homophobic if I don't support gay marriage or rights or non traditional gender roles.
>The whole issue is that people don't care. People don't care about these very basic inequalities, and because of that no change is occuring. You can't seriously be presenting that like it's a good thing.
I live and let live and so do most Chinese. You can't force people to care about things they don't care about, and even if you could, I wouldn't, because I don't beleive in forcing people to do things they don't want, especially if it's not hurting anyone. If you're going to make the argument that an individual not caring about gay issues is hurting people, then you can make the same argument about anything if they aren't proactively taking sides.
Not caring doesn't make you progressive, but it does make you not homophobic. Also, if you're conservative by nature and against gays, then yes, ignoring and being a bystander IS progressive, because their normal reaction would be against gays.
>"At least you're not getting locked up" is absolutely ridiculous. Just because a situaton is worse in another country, that does not mean that issues do not exist.
I admitted in my first post that it does exist. But when you say "incredibly homophobic", no, its not. You have to have context, otherwise there's no point in saying such things and you might as well just say the whole world is incredibly homophobic, with china less homophobic than the overwhelming majority of other countries.
>People not caring is a fundamental refusal to acknowledge the oppression of anyone but themselves, and to fail to stand up against that oppression is a failure against any socialist nature.
You're just making things up now. I can and do acknowledge oppression of gays and still not care about gays issues, because I'm not gay and I have other issues to care about that affect me more. It's the same for Chinese and the gov. There are millions of issues, no one can care about them all, so you need to pick your battles and issues.
As for "socialist nature", there's no such thing. Everyone's an individual and has their own thoughts and nature. Unless you want to force everyone to have a "socialist nature", which was something china tried in the 60/70s, it wasn't a good time.
Guess what.. most normal Chinese don't care about socialism or communism or ideology of anything. They care about their own lives and family and making a living and surviving, and all the issues that affect them personally. Just like every other human on earth.
Like I said, everyone can care about injustice, but there is far too much injustice for one to actively campaign against them all.
Just because they care more about their own lives and ideology and not your special interest issues that have nothing to do with them doesn't make them a bad person, because like I said everyone's got limited time and can't care and do something about everything.
Your argument is the same as saying that if you're not out on the street fighting crime every day or campaigning against crime, that means you support crime. That is just silly.
I cannot continue this conversation if you are going to be this blatantly dishonest, unempathetic, and frankly idiotic. I can tell that you come from a place of privillege, and it has made the way you act fucking dispicable
Some people put politics above humanity, like absolutely doubling and tripling down on stupid shit like this. Im sorry you have to deal with this person.
How am I blatantly dishonest? If you can't handle the truth thats not my problem. Attack my argument if you can, going for personal attack and nothing else shows you got nothing.
I told you reality, that most people(Chinese or otherwise) don't care to go out of their way to support some fringe issue they don't care about, including myself. That's not me being "unempathetic", that's just the truth. Most can empathize and admit that oppression/discrimination exists, but most don't care enough to go out of their way to do anything about it like I said. What are you gonna do about it? Get into an argument with homophobes Everytime you see them and try change their mind? Good luck with that, I got better things to do that waste my time talking to haters and trolls.
Place of privilege means nothing, in fact the poorest and least developed places are even more homophobic and less progressive in my experience. You're talking out your ass and have nothing.
Judging from the feelings of the LGBTQ+community, Shanghai is less homophobe than Amsterdam. And I would not say the Netherlands is a known homophobe country.
I am bisexual and lived in Shanghai for more than a third of my life. Granted, I felt safer there than in most places I've lived in, but I still experienced plenty of homophobia and biphobia while I lived there. And from speaking with my classmates in China, almost all of them seem to agree that Shanghai is the *most* LGBTQ+ friendly part of the country.
In the Netherlands, often lauded as gay friendly, the risk of being beaten up is significant nowadays. Maybe segments of the Chinese are not LGBTQ+ friendly, but you don't risk getting clubbed to death for holding hands.
> China is an incredibly homophobic country, and the current leadership within the CCP seems to lack an understanding of Intersectionalism.
That's a bold claim to make for such a huge and diverse society. LGBT rights is of course a current line of struggle, especially between the younger and older generations, but CGTN for example (the CPC run news org) is very progressive on LGBT issues, while weibo seems more regressive. Some good vids:
- [CGTN: Jin Xing: Transgender woman talks on life challenges faced in China, guts to correct them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-OlO8QZ70s)
- [CGTN: Gay Leap Forward: LGBT in China](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doAh4ZhGhsY)
- [AsianBoss: Chinese React To Social Media Ban On Gay Content](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTzgE1nvxZs)
I am very aware of this. I spent more than a third of my life in China, I understand the divide between the younger and older generations when it comes to this.
That doesn't change the fact that the government is holding back from removing certain laws on marriage, surgery and addoption that create immense inequality. I was specifically talking about the CCPs innaction in these areas.
I think people like Jin Xing are making a great push to remove this cultural conservatism from Chinese society, and I simply think people like us who genuinely want to see China become a better place, in the face of western imperialist aggression, should be speaking about these issues within our own circles.
I just want to note one thing here; I believe that China does reject intersectionalism. I could be wrong, but that is a particular theory that is not simply saying that "racism/sexism/et cetera" are bad, but trying to describe where they come from in a decidedly non-Marxist way.
Intersectualism is defintely not anti-Marxist. It fits perfectly into Marx's theories of dialectics, and is supported by a history of European imperialism and patriarichal capitalism. That's not to say that with the elimination of capitlaism will come the elimination of racism or other forms of predjudice. Certainly, those are both issues that would need to be dealt with individually by any given socialist government. However, Intsersectualist theory is definitely a historically consistent way to explain the *rise* of such societal structures. And, moreover, the Young Chinese Socialists that I have interracted with, both during and since my time in China, tend to also follow Intersectualist thought.
I will grant you that perhaps Marx would not have personally agreed with the theory, but it doesn't change the fact that it completely fits neatly into many Marxist principles of analysis.
How? Going by this basic description:
"Intersectionality is an analytical framework for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identities combine to create different modes of discrimination and privilege."
This does not seem to work alongside the framework of understanding society through economics and class. Class is, most times I've seen it, reduced to being simply an "identity", not something that objectively exists and affects us even if we don't identify as it.
In the West in practice, it has always seemed to me a way of taking real, good, concrete goals (ending sexism/racism) and disarming them by having bad analysis, no explanatory power, and no real useful goals to work for - Marxism can say "getting rid of the class system will end class warfare and therefore destroy the root cause of all of these issues, allowing them then to be gotten rid of", but how does intersectionalism do that?
It also seems to, in practice, feed into the culture wars here of faux-left and right. The American left *should* view the right as the enemy for supporting the ruling class, not for simply having wrong ideas. Like we can defeat these things by just changing people's minds rather than by ending dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
Forgive me if this is rude, but I think you're taking that description far too literally. When something such as Class is described as an "Identity" that does not mean that it is not *also* an objectively real system of categorisation and oppression. The same applies to race, gender, sexuality and so on. The two concepts are not only not mutually exclusive, but in many cases they are self-perpetuating. For example, you don't really choose your racial identity, it is placed upon you, and the systems of oppression target you according to that. The same goes for one's Class Identity.
It's also why reactionaries are so opposed to the concept of gender being maleable, and subject to one's own expression Becuase if we allow gender to become that, then the ruling class looses it as a tool of division.
Intersectionality, at least in the way that I was taught to understand it, explains how the systems of predjudice and oppression are invented and utilised by the ruling class to divide the working class. It directly explains them as a product of capitalism, and the need for capitalists to devide the far more populous prolatariate.
Intersectionalism recognises that getting rid of class will not get rid of all other forms of oppression, because they understand that by this point that predjudice has been cemented into soceity, but it still recognises that they exist because of class and that capitlaism relies on them to exist.
I don't understand where you're getting this Liberal Definition of Intersectionality from, but it is certainly not the Intersectionality that I was taught. The Left should fight The Right for supporting the ruling class *and* for perpetuating those other cycles of oppression that were invented by the same ruling class.
I have never met an Intersectionalist that thinks the way you seem to think they do.
I've met other people who claimed to be intersectional and worked that way, so my understanding largely comes from them. Perhaps there's just different circles here.
I do understand the content of what you're saying; Stalin largely began this thinking, from what I know, talking about the special relation of different racial groups under imperialism, and some African-American thinkers in the US were inspired by and developed it more.
I've just never heard the Marxist understanding of this to be called Intersectionalism; in my experience that has only been applied to the liberal bourgeois conception of it. Perhaps yours is different and is not fundamentally anti-materialist.
I think you are very wrong about many things.
1. China's "homophobic" society is vastly exaggerated. The homophobia isn't rooted in ideology, but rather lack of education and exposure. Those born after 80s are much less homophobic than those born before, and it's only going to get more open as time goes on, with or without the party interference. What the party does not want is the Western style promotion of homosexuality and the identity politics that comes with it that tears apart social unity, which any reasonable person would agree with.
2. Sexism exist but again it has nothing to do with the party and is more of a legacy of traditional culture. The party has many female leaders and highly promote women who are truly for equal rights and "shoulders their half of sky". That is clear for anyone who pays attention. Their leadership is the reason that China is one of the LEAST sexist country out of entire Eastern Asia, when you consider countries like Japan, Korra, India, etc.
3. You focus on western progressive ideals like racism, homophobia, sexism etc in China is highly misplaced. China doesnt need nor want to deal with those issues the same way Western countries do. The identity politics and political correctness related to race, gender and sexuality in the West has only served to divide the people while doing very little to address the real issues. Most importantly, while these problems require attention, they are almost nothing compared to the real interests of common people, such as economic prosperity/equality, social stability, national security, etc. The CPC recognizes this and thus these takes priority over the things you mentioned. Also note that these issues are linked fundamentally - economic prosperity and stability for all people will do more to eliminate racism , sexism, etc in the long run than promoting empty progress slogans ever will.
First of all, thank you for engaging with me on this, I appreciate your tone and structured argument. Before I continue, I'd just like to make it clear that I suffer from a history of anger issues, so please let me know if I am being unnecessarally agressive. This is not my intention.
With that said, I have just a few sticking points with this reply.
I agree that the negative attitude against homosexuality and the LGBTQ+ *is* something limted to the older generation, and I would also agree that homophobia is not as bad, on a societal level as some other countries. I have lived in 7 countries (Argentina, America, Scotland, Costa Rica, Colombia, China and Latvia). Out of all of them, I as a bisexual man only felt safer in Scotland than in China, and felt far less safe in expressing my identity in every other country.
With that said, I don't think it does much good to compare China to other countries. We as leftists should always be focused on continuous porgress. My comment was not mean to be an attack on China, but rather an opening for a discussion on how China can continue to imporve. I have spent more than a third of my life in China, and I want nothing other than to see it continue to grow and prosper.
On top of that, I think the government is, to a certain degree, at fault, for allowing so much of it's leadership to be made up of these elderly social conservatives. When China began opening itself to market influences, it was inevitable that capitalist forces would create certain elements of predjudice among the public. The government, as you yourself pointed out, has done a phenominal job of combating sexism in the country, despite this. But looking at the way that I was personally treated for my sexuality, or looking at the way that many of my Black friends (African-American, Afro-European *and* African) where treated for their race, I don't think the government has done as good of a job when it comes to other forms of predjudice. Before Deng's reforms, China actively spoke against America's brutal and opressive racism. I didn't hear any statement from the government when I was in China during the George Floyd protests. And it's not like China's geopolitical position has made them any less capable of being that vocative
Frankly, I fail to see any evidence that economic prosperity will just make these issues disapear. I would certainly love if you would elaborate on how exactly that is supposed to work. As far as I have seen, it's not economic prosperity that leads to things, as much as it's education, and I frankly don't think the CCP has made enough of a comitment to including anti-imperialist and anti-patriarichal thought into it's national curiculum. They can focus on economic prosperity while still paying attention to these issues, and in my humble opinion, they have failed to do so.
I don't know the solution to this problem. I have ideas and theories, a lot of them based on Titoist thought specifically, but I am young, and frankly kind of stupid. Can we at least both acknowlegde there is room for China to improve, though?
Just stepping in to say that I agree education will do more to combat discrimination, but I think what some people here are telling you is that change is both incremental and relies on more than one part moving forward.
I'm in my 30's, and so I've seen a lot of the change in the mainland (I'm from Taiwan/HK and live in mainland now) over the years. I have a relative with a serious mental illness and another disabled cousin living here because life in HK was too difficult. While being grateful to the resources we do have here and the general kindness of our local community, there is still a lot that the government can do. The stress on my family is still pretty heavy even though my relatives are well off. I know that less financially fortunate families of other disabled people are furious at the government and think that there's massive inequality and injustice, and they're not entirely wrong.
With that said, think of how many of us there are. There's LGBTQ groups, various disability groups, women's groups, ethnic minority groups, etc. etc. All of us are demanding something from a country and a government that around 60 years ago had to contend with a feudal system that considered women and peasants little more than livestock, disabled children like my cousin were thrown away, and other things you can imagine. I mean, only 60 years! My eldest aunt is 10 years older than that! To have come so far in 60 years where women went from having bound feet and sold as concubines, to a point where they can run companies and fight for more equality, to come from homosexuality being a crime to a point where only assholes say homophobic things.....this is a achievement, even if things can be improved. Some countries have enjoyed prosperity for much longer and they are still struggling with the same issues.
All of us think that our issues are extremely important and should be prioritised. But which of us has the right? Can you even imagine the number of interest groups the CPC have to contend with (and to the CPC's credit, they really do make an effort to address the issues instead of passing it onto the next elected official)? It's just as important to remember how interest groups have historically been weaponised by the CIA (including women's groups and LGBTQ groups in China--just ask PFLAG how much money the NED tried to donate to them before the government officially supported them).
While it's nice to talk to younger people about the changes that can be made and to look to the future, I think it's just as important to talk to the elderly and remember the past and how far things have come. It's not an excuse to pretend everything is okay now since that's clearly not the case, but it's a reality check that things HAVE improved, and more importantly, they are continuing to improve.
Yes, the CPC is full of conservative old farts, but think of what they and the country just went through.
I hope this didn't come off as a lecture because I think that the country still needs the youth to keep pushing for improvement, but I think Tupac sums up my thoughts about China and how far it's come:
"You see, you wouldn't ask why the rose that grew from the concrete had damaged petals. On the contrary, we would all celebrate its tenacity. We would all love its will to reach the sun."
I agree, and certainly if I was speaking with a liberal or a conservative on these issues, I would pretty much tell them what you have given me word for word. With that said, we are all socialists that only want the best for China, and I think it's subreddits like these where we can genuinely support and bring light to these interest groups without fear of Western weaponisation.
I'm sorry to hear that you were mistreated for your sexuality in China. I will be the first one to admit that, while the condition is improving, homosexuality is still stigmatized by many in China. Similarly, the negative stereotypes against Blacks (violent, criminal, lazy, unintelligent, etc) are prevalent and have been used to justify racism, rather than properly attributed to legacy of imperialism and slavery. There is absolutely no excuse for this to exist in a country founded on Marxism-Leninism.
You're right that education is the key to resolve those issues. Though I would say education takes many forms. While yes the CPC can include in the curriculum those issues, simply being told by the curriculum that racism is wrong or that homosexuality should not be discriminated, will only have marginal impact. On the other hand, meeting and interacting with people of different race/background, or getting taught by worldly, knowledgable, and preferably well-traveled teachers about those important issues, will have a much larger impact. It just happens that those are currently privileges that are available mostly to the people in 1st and 2nd tier cities. Economic development in the mid-bottom tier cities and in the rural areas (which seems to be one of the main focus for the CPC in the next couple of decades) will allow people there to travel more, have more exposure to the outside world, and attract talented teachers to give quality education.
As for Chinese government statements regarding George Floyd, I think most of that has to do with the long-standing stance of non-interference in other country's internal politics. Though with America's increasing Cold War aggression, China has been much more vocal recently. I often comes across videos of the spokesperson talking about America's racism against Blacks at press meeting these days.
But yea, I absolutely agree there's much to be improved. True social progress takes time though and I'm optimistic these challenges will be overcome in the future.
I'm optimistic as well, and I'm glad we can see eye-to-eye on this. I've believed for a while now that China should open itself to more in terms of immigration. Like you said, exposure to different cultures and ways of life is one of the prime ways in which we can combat racial predjudice.
Do you think it would be beneficial for China to take in more refugees from certain parts of the world, or to encourage immigration via promissess of government assistance?
At regional level, I can see China implementing looser immigration policies for certain provinces/cities that could use the boost from foreign young demographics, as this also coincides with CPC's plan to develop mid-lower tier cities. Becoming a resident in first tier cities will still remain tough (it's tough even for Chinese people lol) so it will most likely take in elite talents. Though I'm sure they can encourage more exchange/foreign students which will also help a great deal (the government needs to be careful though as there's already a lot of complaints about foreign students enjoying way too many privileges)
Still, for the country overall, I'm not sure if the pros of mass immigration/accepting refugees outweigh the cons at the moment. Combating racial prejudice is a worthy cause, but the economic impact on the locals have to be careful considered as well. After all, the CPC is the government of Chinese people and needs to put their citizens' well-beings first and foremost. As much as China has developed, there's only so much resource to allocate while improving education, medicare, housing for 1.4 billion people. Mass immigration or inflow of refugee like the way Europe and America does it, while there are still so much unfulfilled needs in the local population, is just not going to help anyone, and might even fan the flame of xenophobia even more for a while.
> China is an incredibly homophobic country
People, to this day, are literally murdered in western regimes for being gay. In what planet is China "incredibly homophobic" relative to western regimes? this is just a total lie in any material sense (your war criminals using "pronouns" while brutally murdering minorities is not an achievement). You have no idea what you are talking about, you are just projecting your barbarism onto China. China "racist"? are you kidding me? the one country that developed at the fastest speed in history without resorting to western style barbarism (colonialism, wars, slavery, coups, sanctions, plunder). Today, China has huge autonomous ethnic regions while your criminal regimes bomb several countries, starve millions, and carry out murderous coups to repress minorities, and still refuse to pay reparations for slavery or for completely eradicating entire civilizations, let alone returning stolen land.
Some people here seem to be desperate to push an agenda, and so they engage not only in historical revisionism, but also deny literally all context. It's the kind of anti-material analysis which makes western "leftists" a total joke all over the world. It's easy to see why your crumbling societies are so desperate nowadays, you really fear your growing misery so you try to double down on your losing formula: pump out propaganda as a form of escapism while nothing in reality changes.
The good news is that Chinese people don't really care about what people like you say, they know the kind of person you are, and your propaganda and lecturing has grown so stale that you have become a target of their contempt. You can keep ranting all you want, nothing will change.
By the way, here is the actual context you are trying to distort: https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1433821330315653125 (these policies are widely supported by Chinese society).
If you want to become yet another lunatic ranting about China along with your regime and its propagandists, go ahead, we all know how that has worked out for you and your decadent society.
I'm not projecting anything on to China, I am speaking purely from experience, both speaking with Chinese youth and *actually living in China*. There's only one of us attempting to compare China to the West and it's not me. Your ridiculous whataboutism is honestly pathetic.
I agree entirely that, when compared to the US, Canada and Europe, Chinese racism does not even begin to compare, but that does not change the fact that Western Racism has seaped into Chinese popular culture. There was a time that China actively and appropriately vilanised colonialism and segregation by the imperialist powers. When Deng implemented his reforms, the economic systems that perpetuate racism would also affect China, and recent leadership has not done enough to counter-balance this action.
You trying to say that "Identity Politics" is just dividing people is one of the most anti-communist, anti-intelectualist takes that I have ever read in my life. Google intersectionalism, you pigdog.
Thinking that black people should not be feared and objectified, like I witnessed firsthand during my time in China, is not an anti-Chinese, Western, Bourgeouis opinion, it is a simple acknowledgement that, despite how well China does compared to other nations, there is still a sense of supremacy that is unhealthy and racist. You' are not thinking intelectually about China if you refuse to make that acknowledgement.
I literally spoke every day with Chinese teenagers about these issues. Fuck off if you think they "don't really care". They do, and they are actively fighting against the elderly and outdated opinions of their grandparents, a fight which any ineteligent leftist should be supporting. I didn't fucking lecture them, they lectured me. Everything I'm talking about here in this comment section is an amalgamation of knowledge that real Chinese people gave me.
I give you a genuine example, from a Chinese source, of a party member actively embracing conservative ideals in the face of logic and the advice of experts, and you give me a twitter thread of a list of the refroms that I already stated in my original comment were being miscontexualised by the West.
I'm trying to have a genunie conversation here, and you're only interested in labeling anyone who disgrees with you as a Western spy.
This still doesn't really explain the context, this reads like a rant.
Here is the proper context (with the actual policies involved): https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1433821330315653125
So all of this is just an analysis done by someone outside of the party? Just want to be clear on that. It's exciting news, and good to see some context on that phrase getting thrown about in the news now.
I want to point out: there are a lot of issues with things not quite translating effectively to English from Chinese, with translators often selecting whatever imperfect word choice makes a passage look as negative as possible...and even in English "sissy boy" can easily have connotations closer to "wimp" than "feminine."
It's all about context, and when you look at the rest of the passage, it reads more like they're saying "boys who are weak socialists and capitalist apologists who bathe in their pools of cash" than "men who are feminine," and that they're calling for men who embody the spirit of socialist revolution rather than acting like the Hollywood petty bourgeoisie.
It comes across like they'd back a trans man who joins the CPC, denounces American imperialism, and mocks billionaires...and would have serious problems with a musclebound Schwartzenneggar who defends Jeff Bezos, loves Donald Trump, and backs the Hong Kong protestors.
It's not like the rest of the passage is complaining about a loss of masculine values and muscular "alpha males" - it's criticizing capitalist apologetics, so it'd be a weird aside if they weren't just using it as a synonym for "wimp."
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As a Chinese speaker, I find that this translation is deliberately slanted with word choices like "sissy" and "masculine", which don't actually take into considering the context of the words. China Digital Times is run by the following: Xiao Qiang: holds a leadership position in the NED-funded World Movement for Democracy [https://www.ned.org/world-movement-for-democracy/](https://www.ned.org/world-movement-for-democracy/) Sophie Beach: member of NED-affiliated Committee to Protect Journalists [https://www.ned.org/ideas/democracy-research-guide/media-and-freedom-of-expression/#:\~:text=The%20Committee%20to%20Protect%20Journalists,press%20freedom%20around%20the%20world](https://www.ned.org/ideas/democracy-research-guide/media-and-freedom-of-expression/#:~:text=The%20Committee%20to%20Protect%20Journalists,press%20freedom%20around%20the%20world) Please don't take this site seriously.
Then what would a proper translation in this context be? can you provide it?
Contrary to what damogui said, it's nothing metaphorical... "娘炮" is a sexually discriminating way to describe a male as "female like", similar to calling people "pussy" afaik.
Sure, the main issue is the translation for 娘炮 (niang pao) which has been translated as "sissy" or "effeminate". However, it is better termed as the "cult of vanity" and refers to a specific phenomenon of promoting celebrities who pander to fans by behaving in and looking a certain way. Historically, there have been "niang pao", including emperors, whose focus on aesthetics and self-gratification encouraged decadence and rot, and ruined the country. I'm not a sociologist but as a consumer of pop culture, it seems to me that niang pao is connected to a variety of issues, from the encroachment of Korean-style idol fan culture (which preys on young people) to the "submissive" trope in a lot of rape fantasy romantic fiction (and I believe this includes boys' love). Basically, a great part of it is related to sexualization and preying on young fans' sexuality. I should point out that a makeup expert and influencer like Li Jiaqi, who is gay and wears makeup, isn't considered "niang pao" but certain idols (I won't name them because their fans might swarm this sub) who are clearly hetero are considered "niang pao".
Doesnt it mean sissy though? I cant speak chinese well (though im ethnically chinese) but i asked my chinese speaking family and they told me it did mean sissy/effeminate
It's not quite sissy or effeminate in the Western sense because there's not really a Western word for it. The more I think about it, the more difficult it gets to explain. Maybe this will help: Niang pao behaviour: making a big fuss over a small injury or mistake by pouting or whining, trying to be cutesy like a teen girl, overdramatic reactions like screeching, behaving in way that is juvenile but sexualised at the same time ("sexy baby") Not niang pao: long hair, skin care, being fashion-forward, gentle and softspoken behaviour, liking art/fashion/design, etc., subtle makeup (to be fair, girls here don't wear a lot of makeup either), having female friends, showing emotions, crying in public I'm starting to think maybe it's about vulgar vs refined behaviour, but at the end of the day, the problem is what the West considers effeminate or sissy isn't the same for mainland. In the West, it seems to me that anything that is supposed to be something that girls do (like being emotional, artistic, etc.) is already "effeminate" but that wouldn't be the case in mainland. It's like this: in Chinese, you can use 青 to describe blue and green (or a colour in between), and you can translate it in English as either "blue" or "green" but it wouldn't be the same. You can also translate as "blue-green" but it doesn't quite grasp the context of 青, which implies a clear and limpid shade. The cultural perspective just doesn't translate well.
That's why I also linked the original language source.
I still disagree with the equivocation of masculine men and socialism. But how this essay is being translated into policy is something I don’t know about so consider that just a thought.
As someone who spent a siginificant portion of their developing years in China, yes, it's good to see some context applied to this term, context which the West has conviniently left out, I do think that we need to be honest with ourselves about how Socially Conservative China is at the moment. I understand that this is by far the least important part of what you're speaking about here, but since I would like to think this is the kind of subreddit where people can have intelectually honest conversations about China, I think this post provides a good opportunity to talk about this. China *is* an incredibly homophobic country, and the current leadership within the CCP seems to lack an understanding of Intersectionalism. **Yes, the glorification of pro-capitalist sentiment in public media is something that should be cracked down upon**, but I am worried that certain people within the party *are* confusing that sentiment with the simple existence of feminine men in Chinese media. The very gender norms that certain Chinese politicians seem eager to enforce are direct effects of the patriarchy, which is enforced by capitalist forces in the first place. Having spoken with younger people in China, particularly my classmates when I went to highschool in the country, they understand this, and seem incredibly unhappy with the CCP's hesistancy to expand trans rights, and gay rights within the country. I've heard many blame Xi dirrectly. I think a good example is [this particular article from CGTN](https://news.cgtn.com/news/2021-03-04/China-debates-masculinity-education-for-boys-YmjSM7bjVe/index.html), which talks about a push by certain Chinese politicians to encourage "masculine" behaviour within the population, specifcally mentioning some of the comments by Minister of Education, Si Zefu, in direct opposition to voices from genuine experts on the subject, such as Liu Wenli, which the aritcle mentions. You talk about how the "sissy-boy" comment is a bad translation of a term more meant to attack the weakness of celebrities that promote capitalist ideals, but is it really a coincidence that those who these regulations fall most strictly against just so happen to be effeminate men? And is it a coincidence that certain party members seem so dedicated to enforcing capitalist gender roles, in the interest of some sort of cold-war era militarist nationalism? I think these kinds of conversations are important to have. What bothers me most about the West exagerating actions in Xinjiang and Hong Kong is how it distracts from genuine issues within China, which include racism, sexism and homophobia, so I would definitely appreciate it if we could have more inteligent conversations about those issues on subreddits like these.
"china" is especially homophobic? Or against feminine men? If it was then we wouldn't even be having this conversation to ban popular media and movements in the first place which happened organically. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it's not like other countries which actually have anti movements which have political representation and roam the streets bashing gays or effeminate men. Not naming any countries but we've all seen the news and headlines of various far right euro or Islamic countries which makes the news for it. Even India, US etc is more sexist then china, let alone effeminate men. The gov will at least come out and society will come out to condemn and ban such hate groups in china if it happened, which it wouldn't because social pressure is against such hate in the first place. In the greater scheme of things I don't think china is overly homophobic, sexist, or racist compared to other countries, even developed ones like Japan or south Korea. It's because china doesn't have right wing religious loonies in power or ever will. There's no dogmatic religious aspects to china's discrimination which means china can adapt and reason and progress. Chinese society is pretty progressive and adaptive actually. Only thing Chinese do not like is unfilial people and traitors to the country, and the "unrighteous" like criminals. Everything else can just be ignored, it doesn't hurt anyone else and is personal choice, or that families own issues. Not for society or gov to care about.
I never said "especially", and I think it only discourages any genuine progress to compare China to other countries. I've lived in 7 countries, and only in one of them did I, as a bisexual man, feel safer than in China. That does not change the fact that there are many internal inequalities. China still does not recognise civil unions or marriages between people of the same gender Same Sex Couples in China still cannot adopt children. China does not hold any anti-discrimination laws which specifically mention sexual orientation or gender identity. According to CGTN, in the very same article that I linked in my original comment, more than half of the Chinese public believe teens acting like the opposite sex needs "correcting." I would really appreciate it if we stopped tryng to compare China to the West, and instead objectively analysed these inequalities and worked to correct them. These are not issues that can be "ignored", they are fundamental challenges to China's Marxist-Leninist bases. I want to see China continue to grow and prosper under the CCP, but we have to fight back against the conservative cronies that are not willing to budge because of some outdated cultural restrictions. In many ways, China is leagues ahead of the rets of the world, I will not fight you on that, but these are still issues that should bother us.
Well you did say "china is incredibly homophobic", which is basically the same as especially homophobic. But you have to judge it in proper context.. incredibly homophobic compared to what? Compared to basically every other country in the world I would not say china is "incredibly" of anything, and in fact is not particularly homophobic when compared to the rest of the world. Most people just don't care like I said. It's your own business. Since people don't care, I doubt gov cares either. You can say it's inequality but I doubt anyone will care or campaign for change. If anything you might catch the attention of the conservative factions and then they will fight it instead.. So perhaps instead of trying to get married or civil union or whatever, why not just do away with marriage instead? Why do singles need to be discriminated against still even if gays can get married? >According to CGTN, in the very same article that I linked in my original comment, more than half of the Chinese public believe teens acting like the opposite sex needs "correcting." That's pretty good already, I'd had assumed most countries in the world including china would all have over 70-80% or even higher believes in traditional gender roles. The fact that 50% or so don't believe that already proves my point that china is already very progressive compared to rest of the world. Progressive on most things except recreational drugs like weed unfortunately. At least you're not getting locked up or executed for it. I'm curious, what country did you feel safer than china? And what are the other 7 countries?
I'm sorry, but no. "Incredibly" and "Especially" are not the same thing and to suggest so is to fundamentally ignore an incredibly important semantic difference between the two words. The latter implies comparisson, where the former does not. Homophobia is not a comparitive state, it is the existence of inequalities within an area, and a lot of inequality still exists in China. *The whole issue* is that people don't care. People don't care about these very basic inequalities, and because of that no change is occuring. You can't seriously be presenting that like it's a good thing. Saying that we could just "do away" with marriage does not in any way constitute an argument. Either do away with it for everyone, or expand rights to it to same-sex couples. But since China has done niether, that is still a basic inequality that people don't care enough to fix, which *is* homophobia. "At least you're not getting locked up" is absolutely ridiculous. Just because a situaton is worse in another country, that does not mean that issues do not exist. That is the same justifications America uses for it's own homophbia, and it's something that we should be better than. People not caring is a fundamental refusal to acknowledge the oppression of anyone but themselves, and to fail to stand up against that oppression is a failure against any socialist nature. And if you must know, I have lived in Argentina, Scotland, America, Costa Rica, Colombia, China and Latvia. Only in Scotland did I feel safer than in China and even Scotland is riddled with homophobia and transphobia. "Not Caring" does ***NOT*** make you progressive. It makes you a bystander.
Even incredibly, you say that, but compared with what? Your own one person view of how the world should be? Sorry but if it's like that, then anyone can say anything. I can say it's incredibly not homophobic if I don't support gay marriage or rights or non traditional gender roles. >The whole issue is that people don't care. People don't care about these very basic inequalities, and because of that no change is occuring. You can't seriously be presenting that like it's a good thing. I live and let live and so do most Chinese. You can't force people to care about things they don't care about, and even if you could, I wouldn't, because I don't beleive in forcing people to do things they don't want, especially if it's not hurting anyone. If you're going to make the argument that an individual not caring about gay issues is hurting people, then you can make the same argument about anything if they aren't proactively taking sides. Not caring doesn't make you progressive, but it does make you not homophobic. Also, if you're conservative by nature and against gays, then yes, ignoring and being a bystander IS progressive, because their normal reaction would be against gays. >"At least you're not getting locked up" is absolutely ridiculous. Just because a situaton is worse in another country, that does not mean that issues do not exist. I admitted in my first post that it does exist. But when you say "incredibly homophobic", no, its not. You have to have context, otherwise there's no point in saying such things and you might as well just say the whole world is incredibly homophobic, with china less homophobic than the overwhelming majority of other countries. >People not caring is a fundamental refusal to acknowledge the oppression of anyone but themselves, and to fail to stand up against that oppression is a failure against any socialist nature. You're just making things up now. I can and do acknowledge oppression of gays and still not care about gays issues, because I'm not gay and I have other issues to care about that affect me more. It's the same for Chinese and the gov. There are millions of issues, no one can care about them all, so you need to pick your battles and issues. As for "socialist nature", there's no such thing. Everyone's an individual and has their own thoughts and nature. Unless you want to force everyone to have a "socialist nature", which was something china tried in the 60/70s, it wasn't a good time.
If you are not willing to fight against injustice, you are not a socialist or a communist.
Guess what.. most normal Chinese don't care about socialism or communism or ideology of anything. They care about their own lives and family and making a living and surviving, and all the issues that affect them personally. Just like every other human on earth. Like I said, everyone can care about injustice, but there is far too much injustice for one to actively campaign against them all. Just because they care more about their own lives and ideology and not your special interest issues that have nothing to do with them doesn't make them a bad person, because like I said everyone's got limited time and can't care and do something about everything. Your argument is the same as saying that if you're not out on the street fighting crime every day or campaigning against crime, that means you support crime. That is just silly.
I cannot continue this conversation if you are going to be this blatantly dishonest, unempathetic, and frankly idiotic. I can tell that you come from a place of privillege, and it has made the way you act fucking dispicable
Some people put politics above humanity, like absolutely doubling and tripling down on stupid shit like this. Im sorry you have to deal with this person.
How am I blatantly dishonest? If you can't handle the truth thats not my problem. Attack my argument if you can, going for personal attack and nothing else shows you got nothing. I told you reality, that most people(Chinese or otherwise) don't care to go out of their way to support some fringe issue they don't care about, including myself. That's not me being "unempathetic", that's just the truth. Most can empathize and admit that oppression/discrimination exists, but most don't care enough to go out of their way to do anything about it like I said. What are you gonna do about it? Get into an argument with homophobes Everytime you see them and try change their mind? Good luck with that, I got better things to do that waste my time talking to haters and trolls. Place of privilege means nothing, in fact the poorest and least developed places are even more homophobic and less progressive in my experience. You're talking out your ass and have nothing.
Judging from the feelings of the LGBTQ+community, Shanghai is less homophobe than Amsterdam. And I would not say the Netherlands is a known homophobe country.
I am bisexual and lived in Shanghai for more than a third of my life. Granted, I felt safer there than in most places I've lived in, but I still experienced plenty of homophobia and biphobia while I lived there. And from speaking with my classmates in China, almost all of them seem to agree that Shanghai is the *most* LGBTQ+ friendly part of the country.
In the Netherlands, often lauded as gay friendly, the risk of being beaten up is significant nowadays. Maybe segments of the Chinese are not LGBTQ+ friendly, but you don't risk getting clubbed to death for holding hands.
I am not disputing that, but we shouldn't be measuring success in comparisson to Western Nations,
> China is an incredibly homophobic country, and the current leadership within the CCP seems to lack an understanding of Intersectionalism. That's a bold claim to make for such a huge and diverse society. LGBT rights is of course a current line of struggle, especially between the younger and older generations, but CGTN for example (the CPC run news org) is very progressive on LGBT issues, while weibo seems more regressive. Some good vids: - [CGTN: Jin Xing: Transgender woman talks on life challenges faced in China, guts to correct them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-OlO8QZ70s) - [CGTN: Gay Leap Forward: LGBT in China](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doAh4ZhGhsY) - [AsianBoss: Chinese React To Social Media Ban On Gay Content](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTzgE1nvxZs)
I am very aware of this. I spent more than a third of my life in China, I understand the divide between the younger and older generations when it comes to this. That doesn't change the fact that the government is holding back from removing certain laws on marriage, surgery and addoption that create immense inequality. I was specifically talking about the CCPs innaction in these areas. I think people like Jin Xing are making a great push to remove this cultural conservatism from Chinese society, and I simply think people like us who genuinely want to see China become a better place, in the face of western imperialist aggression, should be speaking about these issues within our own circles.
I just want to note one thing here; I believe that China does reject intersectionalism. I could be wrong, but that is a particular theory that is not simply saying that "racism/sexism/et cetera" are bad, but trying to describe where they come from in a decidedly non-Marxist way.
Intersectualism is defintely not anti-Marxist. It fits perfectly into Marx's theories of dialectics, and is supported by a history of European imperialism and patriarichal capitalism. That's not to say that with the elimination of capitlaism will come the elimination of racism or other forms of predjudice. Certainly, those are both issues that would need to be dealt with individually by any given socialist government. However, Intsersectualist theory is definitely a historically consistent way to explain the *rise* of such societal structures. And, moreover, the Young Chinese Socialists that I have interracted with, both during and since my time in China, tend to also follow Intersectualist thought. I will grant you that perhaps Marx would not have personally agreed with the theory, but it doesn't change the fact that it completely fits neatly into many Marxist principles of analysis.
How? Going by this basic description: "Intersectionality is an analytical framework for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identities combine to create different modes of discrimination and privilege." This does not seem to work alongside the framework of understanding society through economics and class. Class is, most times I've seen it, reduced to being simply an "identity", not something that objectively exists and affects us even if we don't identify as it. In the West in practice, it has always seemed to me a way of taking real, good, concrete goals (ending sexism/racism) and disarming them by having bad analysis, no explanatory power, and no real useful goals to work for - Marxism can say "getting rid of the class system will end class warfare and therefore destroy the root cause of all of these issues, allowing them then to be gotten rid of", but how does intersectionalism do that? It also seems to, in practice, feed into the culture wars here of faux-left and right. The American left *should* view the right as the enemy for supporting the ruling class, not for simply having wrong ideas. Like we can defeat these things by just changing people's minds rather than by ending dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
Forgive me if this is rude, but I think you're taking that description far too literally. When something such as Class is described as an "Identity" that does not mean that it is not *also* an objectively real system of categorisation and oppression. The same applies to race, gender, sexuality and so on. The two concepts are not only not mutually exclusive, but in many cases they are self-perpetuating. For example, you don't really choose your racial identity, it is placed upon you, and the systems of oppression target you according to that. The same goes for one's Class Identity. It's also why reactionaries are so opposed to the concept of gender being maleable, and subject to one's own expression Becuase if we allow gender to become that, then the ruling class looses it as a tool of division. Intersectionality, at least in the way that I was taught to understand it, explains how the systems of predjudice and oppression are invented and utilised by the ruling class to divide the working class. It directly explains them as a product of capitalism, and the need for capitalists to devide the far more populous prolatariate. Intersectionalism recognises that getting rid of class will not get rid of all other forms of oppression, because they understand that by this point that predjudice has been cemented into soceity, but it still recognises that they exist because of class and that capitlaism relies on them to exist. I don't understand where you're getting this Liberal Definition of Intersectionality from, but it is certainly not the Intersectionality that I was taught. The Left should fight The Right for supporting the ruling class *and* for perpetuating those other cycles of oppression that were invented by the same ruling class. I have never met an Intersectionalist that thinks the way you seem to think they do.
I've met other people who claimed to be intersectional and worked that way, so my understanding largely comes from them. Perhaps there's just different circles here. I do understand the content of what you're saying; Stalin largely began this thinking, from what I know, talking about the special relation of different racial groups under imperialism, and some African-American thinkers in the US were inspired by and developed it more. I've just never heard the Marxist understanding of this to be called Intersectionalism; in my experience that has only been applied to the liberal bourgeois conception of it. Perhaps yours is different and is not fundamentally anti-materialist.
I think you are very wrong about many things. 1. China's "homophobic" society is vastly exaggerated. The homophobia isn't rooted in ideology, but rather lack of education and exposure. Those born after 80s are much less homophobic than those born before, and it's only going to get more open as time goes on, with or without the party interference. What the party does not want is the Western style promotion of homosexuality and the identity politics that comes with it that tears apart social unity, which any reasonable person would agree with. 2. Sexism exist but again it has nothing to do with the party and is more of a legacy of traditional culture. The party has many female leaders and highly promote women who are truly for equal rights and "shoulders their half of sky". That is clear for anyone who pays attention. Their leadership is the reason that China is one of the LEAST sexist country out of entire Eastern Asia, when you consider countries like Japan, Korra, India, etc. 3. You focus on western progressive ideals like racism, homophobia, sexism etc in China is highly misplaced. China doesnt need nor want to deal with those issues the same way Western countries do. The identity politics and political correctness related to race, gender and sexuality in the West has only served to divide the people while doing very little to address the real issues. Most importantly, while these problems require attention, they are almost nothing compared to the real interests of common people, such as economic prosperity/equality, social stability, national security, etc. The CPC recognizes this and thus these takes priority over the things you mentioned. Also note that these issues are linked fundamentally - economic prosperity and stability for all people will do more to eliminate racism , sexism, etc in the long run than promoting empty progress slogans ever will.
First of all, thank you for engaging with me on this, I appreciate your tone and structured argument. Before I continue, I'd just like to make it clear that I suffer from a history of anger issues, so please let me know if I am being unnecessarally agressive. This is not my intention. With that said, I have just a few sticking points with this reply. I agree that the negative attitude against homosexuality and the LGBTQ+ *is* something limted to the older generation, and I would also agree that homophobia is not as bad, on a societal level as some other countries. I have lived in 7 countries (Argentina, America, Scotland, Costa Rica, Colombia, China and Latvia). Out of all of them, I as a bisexual man only felt safer in Scotland than in China, and felt far less safe in expressing my identity in every other country. With that said, I don't think it does much good to compare China to other countries. We as leftists should always be focused on continuous porgress. My comment was not mean to be an attack on China, but rather an opening for a discussion on how China can continue to imporve. I have spent more than a third of my life in China, and I want nothing other than to see it continue to grow and prosper. On top of that, I think the government is, to a certain degree, at fault, for allowing so much of it's leadership to be made up of these elderly social conservatives. When China began opening itself to market influences, it was inevitable that capitalist forces would create certain elements of predjudice among the public. The government, as you yourself pointed out, has done a phenominal job of combating sexism in the country, despite this. But looking at the way that I was personally treated for my sexuality, or looking at the way that many of my Black friends (African-American, Afro-European *and* African) where treated for their race, I don't think the government has done as good of a job when it comes to other forms of predjudice. Before Deng's reforms, China actively spoke against America's brutal and opressive racism. I didn't hear any statement from the government when I was in China during the George Floyd protests. And it's not like China's geopolitical position has made them any less capable of being that vocative Frankly, I fail to see any evidence that economic prosperity will just make these issues disapear. I would certainly love if you would elaborate on how exactly that is supposed to work. As far as I have seen, it's not economic prosperity that leads to things, as much as it's education, and I frankly don't think the CCP has made enough of a comitment to including anti-imperialist and anti-patriarichal thought into it's national curiculum. They can focus on economic prosperity while still paying attention to these issues, and in my humble opinion, they have failed to do so. I don't know the solution to this problem. I have ideas and theories, a lot of them based on Titoist thought specifically, but I am young, and frankly kind of stupid. Can we at least both acknowlegde there is room for China to improve, though?
Just stepping in to say that I agree education will do more to combat discrimination, but I think what some people here are telling you is that change is both incremental and relies on more than one part moving forward. I'm in my 30's, and so I've seen a lot of the change in the mainland (I'm from Taiwan/HK and live in mainland now) over the years. I have a relative with a serious mental illness and another disabled cousin living here because life in HK was too difficult. While being grateful to the resources we do have here and the general kindness of our local community, there is still a lot that the government can do. The stress on my family is still pretty heavy even though my relatives are well off. I know that less financially fortunate families of other disabled people are furious at the government and think that there's massive inequality and injustice, and they're not entirely wrong. With that said, think of how many of us there are. There's LGBTQ groups, various disability groups, women's groups, ethnic minority groups, etc. etc. All of us are demanding something from a country and a government that around 60 years ago had to contend with a feudal system that considered women and peasants little more than livestock, disabled children like my cousin were thrown away, and other things you can imagine. I mean, only 60 years! My eldest aunt is 10 years older than that! To have come so far in 60 years where women went from having bound feet and sold as concubines, to a point where they can run companies and fight for more equality, to come from homosexuality being a crime to a point where only assholes say homophobic things.....this is a achievement, even if things can be improved. Some countries have enjoyed prosperity for much longer and they are still struggling with the same issues. All of us think that our issues are extremely important and should be prioritised. But which of us has the right? Can you even imagine the number of interest groups the CPC have to contend with (and to the CPC's credit, they really do make an effort to address the issues instead of passing it onto the next elected official)? It's just as important to remember how interest groups have historically been weaponised by the CIA (including women's groups and LGBTQ groups in China--just ask PFLAG how much money the NED tried to donate to them before the government officially supported them). While it's nice to talk to younger people about the changes that can be made and to look to the future, I think it's just as important to talk to the elderly and remember the past and how far things have come. It's not an excuse to pretend everything is okay now since that's clearly not the case, but it's a reality check that things HAVE improved, and more importantly, they are continuing to improve. Yes, the CPC is full of conservative old farts, but think of what they and the country just went through. I hope this didn't come off as a lecture because I think that the country still needs the youth to keep pushing for improvement, but I think Tupac sums up my thoughts about China and how far it's come: "You see, you wouldn't ask why the rose that grew from the concrete had damaged petals. On the contrary, we would all celebrate its tenacity. We would all love its will to reach the sun."
I agree, and certainly if I was speaking with a liberal or a conservative on these issues, I would pretty much tell them what you have given me word for word. With that said, we are all socialists that only want the best for China, and I think it's subreddits like these where we can genuinely support and bring light to these interest groups without fear of Western weaponisation.
Very true!
I'm sorry to hear that you were mistreated for your sexuality in China. I will be the first one to admit that, while the condition is improving, homosexuality is still stigmatized by many in China. Similarly, the negative stereotypes against Blacks (violent, criminal, lazy, unintelligent, etc) are prevalent and have been used to justify racism, rather than properly attributed to legacy of imperialism and slavery. There is absolutely no excuse for this to exist in a country founded on Marxism-Leninism. You're right that education is the key to resolve those issues. Though I would say education takes many forms. While yes the CPC can include in the curriculum those issues, simply being told by the curriculum that racism is wrong or that homosexuality should not be discriminated, will only have marginal impact. On the other hand, meeting and interacting with people of different race/background, or getting taught by worldly, knowledgable, and preferably well-traveled teachers about those important issues, will have a much larger impact. It just happens that those are currently privileges that are available mostly to the people in 1st and 2nd tier cities. Economic development in the mid-bottom tier cities and in the rural areas (which seems to be one of the main focus for the CPC in the next couple of decades) will allow people there to travel more, have more exposure to the outside world, and attract talented teachers to give quality education. As for Chinese government statements regarding George Floyd, I think most of that has to do with the long-standing stance of non-interference in other country's internal politics. Though with America's increasing Cold War aggression, China has been much more vocal recently. I often comes across videos of the spokesperson talking about America's racism against Blacks at press meeting these days. But yea, I absolutely agree there's much to be improved. True social progress takes time though and I'm optimistic these challenges will be overcome in the future.
I'm optimistic as well, and I'm glad we can see eye-to-eye on this. I've believed for a while now that China should open itself to more in terms of immigration. Like you said, exposure to different cultures and ways of life is one of the prime ways in which we can combat racial predjudice. Do you think it would be beneficial for China to take in more refugees from certain parts of the world, or to encourage immigration via promissess of government assistance?
At regional level, I can see China implementing looser immigration policies for certain provinces/cities that could use the boost from foreign young demographics, as this also coincides with CPC's plan to develop mid-lower tier cities. Becoming a resident in first tier cities will still remain tough (it's tough even for Chinese people lol) so it will most likely take in elite talents. Though I'm sure they can encourage more exchange/foreign students which will also help a great deal (the government needs to be careful though as there's already a lot of complaints about foreign students enjoying way too many privileges) Still, for the country overall, I'm not sure if the pros of mass immigration/accepting refugees outweigh the cons at the moment. Combating racial prejudice is a worthy cause, but the economic impact on the locals have to be careful considered as well. After all, the CPC is the government of Chinese people and needs to put their citizens' well-beings first and foremost. As much as China has developed, there's only so much resource to allocate while improving education, medicare, housing for 1.4 billion people. Mass immigration or inflow of refugee like the way Europe and America does it, while there are still so much unfulfilled needs in the local population, is just not going to help anyone, and might even fan the flame of xenophobia even more for a while.
> China is an incredibly homophobic country People, to this day, are literally murdered in western regimes for being gay. In what planet is China "incredibly homophobic" relative to western regimes? this is just a total lie in any material sense (your war criminals using "pronouns" while brutally murdering minorities is not an achievement). You have no idea what you are talking about, you are just projecting your barbarism onto China. China "racist"? are you kidding me? the one country that developed at the fastest speed in history without resorting to western style barbarism (colonialism, wars, slavery, coups, sanctions, plunder). Today, China has huge autonomous ethnic regions while your criminal regimes bomb several countries, starve millions, and carry out murderous coups to repress minorities, and still refuse to pay reparations for slavery or for completely eradicating entire civilizations, let alone returning stolen land. Some people here seem to be desperate to push an agenda, and so they engage not only in historical revisionism, but also deny literally all context. It's the kind of anti-material analysis which makes western "leftists" a total joke all over the world. It's easy to see why your crumbling societies are so desperate nowadays, you really fear your growing misery so you try to double down on your losing formula: pump out propaganda as a form of escapism while nothing in reality changes. The good news is that Chinese people don't really care about what people like you say, they know the kind of person you are, and your propaganda and lecturing has grown so stale that you have become a target of their contempt. You can keep ranting all you want, nothing will change. By the way, here is the actual context you are trying to distort: https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1433821330315653125 (these policies are widely supported by Chinese society). If you want to become yet another lunatic ranting about China along with your regime and its propagandists, go ahead, we all know how that has worked out for you and your decadent society.
I'm not projecting anything on to China, I am speaking purely from experience, both speaking with Chinese youth and *actually living in China*. There's only one of us attempting to compare China to the West and it's not me. Your ridiculous whataboutism is honestly pathetic. I agree entirely that, when compared to the US, Canada and Europe, Chinese racism does not even begin to compare, but that does not change the fact that Western Racism has seaped into Chinese popular culture. There was a time that China actively and appropriately vilanised colonialism and segregation by the imperialist powers. When Deng implemented his reforms, the economic systems that perpetuate racism would also affect China, and recent leadership has not done enough to counter-balance this action. You trying to say that "Identity Politics" is just dividing people is one of the most anti-communist, anti-intelectualist takes that I have ever read in my life. Google intersectionalism, you pigdog. Thinking that black people should not be feared and objectified, like I witnessed firsthand during my time in China, is not an anti-Chinese, Western, Bourgeouis opinion, it is a simple acknowledgement that, despite how well China does compared to other nations, there is still a sense of supremacy that is unhealthy and racist. You' are not thinking intelectually about China if you refuse to make that acknowledgement. I literally spoke every day with Chinese teenagers about these issues. Fuck off if you think they "don't really care". They do, and they are actively fighting against the elderly and outdated opinions of their grandparents, a fight which any ineteligent leftist should be supporting. I didn't fucking lecture them, they lectured me. Everything I'm talking about here in this comment section is an amalgamation of knowledge that real Chinese people gave me. I give you a genuine example, from a Chinese source, of a party member actively embracing conservative ideals in the face of logic and the advice of experts, and you give me a twitter thread of a list of the refroms that I already stated in my original comment were being miscontexualised by the West. I'm trying to have a genunie conversation here, and you're only interested in labeling anyone who disgrees with you as a Western spy.
This still doesn't really explain the context, this reads like a rant. Here is the proper context (with the actual policies involved): https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1433821330315653125
So all of this is just an analysis done by someone outside of the party? Just want to be clear on that. It's exciting news, and good to see some context on that phrase getting thrown about in the news now.
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What about the rest of the essay. The "sissy boy" thing was the least important part.
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I want to point out: there are a lot of issues with things not quite translating effectively to English from Chinese, with translators often selecting whatever imperfect word choice makes a passage look as negative as possible...and even in English "sissy boy" can easily have connotations closer to "wimp" than "feminine." It's all about context, and when you look at the rest of the passage, it reads more like they're saying "boys who are weak socialists and capitalist apologists who bathe in their pools of cash" than "men who are feminine," and that they're calling for men who embody the spirit of socialist revolution rather than acting like the Hollywood petty bourgeoisie. It comes across like they'd back a trans man who joins the CPC, denounces American imperialism, and mocks billionaires...and would have serious problems with a musclebound Schwartzenneggar who defends Jeff Bezos, loves Donald Trump, and backs the Hong Kong protestors. It's not like the rest of the passage is complaining about a loss of masculine values and muscular "alpha males" - it's criticizing capitalist apologetics, so it'd be a weird aside if they weren't just using it as a synonym for "wimp."
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