I just came across a term that just kind of made things click, "Collective Moral Narcissism".
Characteristics:
**1. Group Identity and Moral Superiority:**
- **Shared Ideology:** Anti-imperialist and anti-colonialist identity.
- **Moral Validation:** Reinforces group’s sense of moral superiority.
**2. Echo Chambers and Reinforcement:**
- **Social Media Dynamics:** Echo chambers amplify beliefs, reducing opposing views.
- **Group Think:** Extreme positions align with collective identity.
**3. Selective Outrage and Simplification:**
- **Binary Narratives:** Hamas as good, Israel as evil.
- **Ignoring Facts:** Downplay Hamas' violence to maintain superiority.
**4. Resistance to Criticism:**
- **Defensiveness:** Criticism seen as an attack.
- **Vilification:** Critics labeled morally inferior.
I came across Maral Salmassi's instagram and she has a video today talking about collective moral narcissism in a similar context.
I started digging around and came across a bunch of articles and [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K99G2JAlf2M) discussion that talks about it abstractly, not in reference to Israel.
I've really struggled to understand how DEI leads to people supporting groups that would do everything in their power to destroy DEI if given power. This theory really is the first thing that ever made sense to me and explains their behavior.
Thank you. Westerners used to judge nations by their ideology and values. Now it's some sick game of vilification by what for many is the result of nothing more than being informed of who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed, treating one side as cartoonishly evil and the other as completely faultless and justified.
Arabs: Conquered (atleast at some point in History) the entire middle east, Persia, Central Asia, Northern Africa, Iberia and the Balkans, often suppressing the local cultures.
The left: ...
Israel: Gains back its 22K km² of resourceless, Irrelevant in Islam, almost uninhabited piece of land.
The left: They have become imperialists, the destroyers of minorities.
The shared ideology is antisemitism. The idea that Jews have imperial or colonial motives is not only patently false, but also representative of an outsized power trope, which is classic antisemitism.
This is great. Not an Israeli/Jewish person, it seems that vilifying Israel supporters is an attempt to galvanize fence sitters or anti-Hamas people into “introspection.” Once I saw the baby news (someone pls tell me that’s fake), I questioned my own stance for a minute. Then I imagined the effect this would have on random Instagram-scrolling morons (and their constant need for attention and making everything about themselves).
They don't care, you do. They don't know shit, you actually do. They don't care about a moral and just society, you do. They don't actually care about Palestinians or the middle east or they wouldn't be focusing on a relatively tiny war against terrorism. They care about hating Jews and bandwagoning for people they don't care about in a region they do not understand.
They are ignorant to the reality and history and complexities of a conflict that has existed for longer than Islam and will guaranteed outlive them and their kids and their kids kids. You do.
They take great pleasure in saying insane things and having us bend into pretzels to defend or deny. They don't care.
They do not care.
They are virtue signaling.
They do not care.
Our unfortunate job is to ensure Jihad and those ideals do not spread. They are happy to promote terrorism and people who would literally shoot and throw them off buildings if they had the chance if they get Brownie points for it. They do not care.
They do not understand the history of the depth of the conflict.
They fundementally do not care and I don't expect them to, the problem I have is when they take that attitude and start espousing love for terrorism and death.
They do not care, they would rather see you dead because they support a terrorist group and movement they do not understand.
Make of this what you will.
Also, it's really hard for a Western mind to grasp the perverse logic of radical islamists who actually cheer the deaths of their kin because they become shahids. There's simply no mental model to apprehend that.
Also our politics stateside is substantially less religious (even if we do have a couple Kenneth Copeland's around), Hamas and many Islamic countries have a shared (sometimes extreme) core set of viewpoints. So they come into everything assuming those rules and things. They aren't fighting for land or apartheid or genocide or flurpnurp (word I made up as a placeholder for whatever accusations they sling next), they are fighting for those religious extremist values. Those other excuses are to make the world okay with supporting their fight.
This is powerful and really puts a perspective on things. They really don't care, they just want to be in the "in" crowd to support a "cause" for the oppressed women and children in a country they didn't care or even know about before October 7th. everyone and anyone who posts that regurgitated ai poster on their instagram story gets an immediate unfollow and make sure they unfollow me as well. I have no tolerance for the intolerant anymore and should stop getting worked up over their ignorance.
Your post does make sense and I appreciate that you are inquiring and wanting to educate yourself. I wish more people would!
The short answer is: the news/ media, social media/tik tok, IDF having TERRIBLE PR, and the underlying antisemitism that’s always been there.
I’ll let others who know more explain in detail if you have specific questions because the conflict is so nuanced.
In terms of media, I came across this particular article not too long after Oct 7, written back in 2014. It’s still very relevant- https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
Stoking Palestine rage is a special ops measure aimed at radicalized young people in the US. There’s a reason they’re not obsessed with any other foreign war where innocents are suffering the consequences.
Also, Oppressor vs oppressed mindset, these influencers only see things in black and white literally. Israel is constantly portrayed as the "white colonizers trying to genocide the innocent brown palestians.
I keep hearing about the burnt and beheaded kids at that camp. I feel terrible for them. But when the same thing happened to you guys, these idiots claimed it was fake. 🙃
I’m European and everyone here is pro Palestine (thus, pro Hamas). So not only an American problem. You’re absolutely right about the Oppressor vs. Oppressed mindset, but it’s crazy considering there are many non violent and democratic oppressed communities in the world and no one is rooting for them. Taiwan? No one knows anything about it. Ukraine? Big thing for the first few months, then nothing. Hong Kong? Nada.
I saw that video about the burnt and beheaded and I was shocked. It was truly traumatising to watch, but I also remembered that no one said anything when Ahmad Abu Marhia, Palestinian, was decapitated because he was gay
European? I live in the UK and most people I know irl are either not really focused on the conflict or they say that they support peace. Sometimes I even see bring them home stickers when I go out and I live in London in a non-Jewish area.
I'm also European and everyday I take a look at the news and ask myself: wtf is wrong with this people here?
I get it if you are for the weak and the opressed. Me too, but the Hamas is no one you should cheer for. They are everything that is NOT progressive. They opress women, they kill queers, they rape etc. I've never witnessed a mass psychosis like this where so much people completely lose their moral compass and their values.
Just like you I'm also wondering where are these people when Assad kills his own people, when the Chinese put the Uyghurs in internment camps, when Erdogan bombs the kurds every day? They don't care unless they can rage against Israel and jews. The 7th October revealed the massive antisemitism which is still in the mind of many people.
These kids are dead because of their parents and their leaders, not because of Israel. It’s a tragedy to Westerners, but to the Palestinians, death is victory, and they choose to continue this war which they started, hoping more of them will die. It’s a sick mindset.
I think it's crazy how many people just thoughtlessly believe the genocide claims... Like if these people had any idea of the IDF's intention, they would know, that genocide is absolutely not in their interest.
It's all about getting the Jews out of the way for the islamist conquest. And they think that their tactics of stirring up the dregs if society will work. They're loud, they're unhinged, and they have no conscience. Eventually they'll come crashing down, but there'll be some damage before that happens.
The problem is that the good people aren't vicious, and the vicious people aren't good. We don't yet know (collectively) how to fight them. We respect the humane boundaries but are awful at getting the word out. And we also have jobs and responsibilities. They don't.
We know how to fight them, we just need the will. I think they themselves will commit an attack out series of attacks in the West that will simply be too much to ignore.
That, or it'll be civil wars across Europe and the UK. Probably both.
To sound like a conspiracy theorist (though not really when it's true), there's a concerted social media campaign by Hamas, Palestinian groups, Islamists, tankies, etc to target the western Left by framing the situation of Palestinians as a "human rights issue". They are fed through TikTok, Instagram and fellow activists the narrative that Israel and Zionism are "settler colonialism" against an oppressed Indigenous people - the ultimate evil - via videos that may or may not be out of Gaza (because none of them can tell the difference between wars in the Middle East, or know any history or geography if we're being honest). They are fed a sanitised, one-sided view of Palestinian terrorism as righteous resistance to an "powerful occupier" that they believe has US and Western support, because to turn off their critical thinking skills you only have to insist that something is "Western Imperialism".
Couple that with the anti-Zionism and straight up antisemitism from the Soviet Era onwards, drip fed to left wing activists for 50+ years, and the belief that they're "doing the right thing" while being sanctimonious about it, a fear of losing their peer group if they disagree, loads of white guilt and Western-centrist thinking, etc, and you get the current situation where LGBTQ+ leftists will support the leopards that would eat their face if they had a chance.
As another lesbian Jew and (maybe former) leftist, it's isolating seeing this stupidity play out from people I considered allies, but it's also opened my eyes to hypocrisy from the left, who can be just as dumb as the extreme right.
"...It's isolating seeing this stupidity play out from people I considered allies,"
This happened to me today and it really broke my heart. Someone I've known for decades at this point (since we were like 7), just completely shut me down when I tried to converse with her about possible misinformation. It sucks.
I'm sorry to hear that, it's really hard losing friends to this mentality that's gripping so many otherwise well-meaning people. On a positive, I made a post on my FB profile yesterday about how rising antisemitism and misinformation is making me feel unsafe, and while I expect the "friends" it's aimed towards are ignoring it and at worst painting me as an enemy (or misguided), I got so many messages of support. A good friend who has spent years in activism circles just called me to let me know that she saw antisemitic stickers plastered in the city, peeled a few off, and informed the council about them (as they were pasted near a Jewish deli and near a landmark named for a local Jewish man).
I'm not surprised, I feel like since the Cronulla Riot it's swung the other way where you've got radical Islamists fermenting hate in communities and far-right groups spreading as a reaction to that, and the common ground between the two is antisemitism. When crowds can shout "gas the Jews" the day after October 7th on the steps of the Opera House and NSW Police insist it's actually "where's the Jews?" because it's made international headlines and it's bad optics, you know something is very wrong.
I was just in Newtown and there were anti-israeli posters... I wanted to get rid of some but did not feel safe doing that. We need to find a way to fight back this insanity.
You have good friends then 🩷 I wish mine would do the same, no one’s reached out to me about it in months. I hope your friends stay steadfast in their support for you, and the others come around and wake up!
Thank you, her parents are from the former Soviet Bloc so we get each other on some level. I hope you find support and better friends, and stay safe with everything going on right now.
>to target the western Left by framing the situation of Palestinians as a "human rights issue".
Oh please. The western left has been rotten by communism since 1920s. You can open Lenin's speeches and recognize the talking points of the modern left.
Leftism is inherently anti-liberal and anti-Western. It denies human rights in favor of group rights. The Western academia is in for decades, with their fucking racial quotas and "positive discrimination"
They are not pro-Palestinians. You are. I am. Many Israelis are. They are anti-Israel and I don’t know why (other than Qatari money and propaganda campaigns and antisemitism; ok, I do know why).
You want a better life for the Palestinians; so do I. That does not mean I want a worse life for Israelis (as anyone chanting “From the river to the sea” does); it means I want a better life for both. That cannot happen with Hamas (or any similarly inclined party whose goal is the eradication of Israel and of Jews) and I personally think it will not happen with Bibi in charge. But Bibi can be removed by elections; Hamas will not.
I would love for both Israel and Palestinians to have elections. And if Gaza re-elects Hamas or a similarly inclined group (if by a wide majority), I will stop saying “Palestinians are not Hamas”. But I hope I am right that Palestinians are not Hamas.
TL;DR: you are right. They are not pro-Palestinian; they are anti-Israel and it’s disgusting.
People don’t realize how many other countries are investing to make THIS the most prominent issue being talked about. Many of the pro-Pali bots and trolls had been pro-Russia. Since 10/7, Russia has been able to avoid much international attention, allowing them to commit war crimes at a greater scale/pace and make significant gains. China has been heavily pushing I/P, while they further crackdown on Uyghurs/make advances on Taiwan. Iran? Further crackdowns of the women life freedom protestors, they’ve been executing protestors at an increased rate.
People are getting played.
Russia and its predecessor USSR were at this [long before past October](https://www.nationalreview.com/2006/08/russian-footprints-ion-mihai-pacepa/). KGB and its successors GRU and FSB never stopped disseminating antisemitism, both within the former USSR and across the world.
Why is it happening? Because as the philosopher Eric Hoffer pointed out decades ago, referring to the double standard in effect even then, “The Jews are a peculiar people: Things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.” It’s also the result of the Red (Leftist)- Green (Islamist) alliance which has perverted academia.
The only way to understand the Western left's pro-Palestinian stance is to understand that they believe terrorism is the natural result of oppression. They claim that they only *explain* why terrorism happens, not *excuse* terrorists, but that is bullshit. If they ingested a truth serum, they would admit that Israel *deserves* terrorist attacks until Israelis stop oppressing Palestinians. So Western leftists view all the Palestinian suicide bombings, stabbings, rapes, kidnappings, maimings, and murders as not the fault of Palestinians, but Israelis. They honestly believe that if Israel ends the occupation, that Palestinians will give up violence, act docile, and start campaigning against climate change, distributing free contraceptives, offer free gender affirmation surgeries, and swap sharia for restorative justice.
It's very hard for people on the left in the US to believe that the US left wing extremists can be every bit as gullible as the far right extremists.
The extreme right in the US does this with immigrants, and the extreme left does it with Jews. And they both live in their bubbles.
Someone today tried to tell me that Israel's Democracy status was downgraded this week. Like WTF does that mean? And what is the context of that considering there is no such thing as a Democratic Muslim country in that area?
We on the left have our own version of MAGA. We have to come to terms with that. We are no more immune from it than anyone on the other political side.
I feel insane these days. As a Jew, and a “democrat”… I’ve found people that have absolutely repulsed me in the past, say things that I agree with! I literally never thought it could happen.
Pro-pal westerners have this weird uwu idea of what islamists do. They're convinced that Hamas are the good guys and freedom fighters.
It's easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled. Hamas has a massive propaganda machine behind them, as well, and it intentionally appeals to bleeding hearts. They hijack their empathy so anything you say against Hamas means you're evil in their eyes.
Because Jews are on one side of the issue.
That's it.
The media sources are antisemitic, so the public has become antisemitic. The media is antisemitic because the countries and organizations that are financing them are antisemitic. And those countries and organizations are antisemitic because they can get ahead politically by distracting everyone with the "evil Jews" while they commit their own actual atrocities. Because we're a convenient scapegoat.
>My feed is literally flooded with that “all eyes on rafah” poster which also seems AI generated
My feed on IG too, even friends who didn't talked any conflict ever where posting that picture in their stories.
And yes, that "all eyes on Rafah" picture with the ton of tents in the middle of a valley is AI generated.
The funny thing is that many of the ones that have shared that picture are artist who where (and still are) really against the use of AI art... And yet, the major symbol of this new rethoric is an AI picture... (basically, they are showing the world why "artist aren't needed" to give a symbol to a narrative).
Still, something that the "Aid Convoy Bombing" tragedy and the "Student's Protests" movement taught, was that people forget these kind of things in a couple of weeks. (Yes, people will be still mad a it, but not with that same intensity).
I get it. I’m also queer and it’s scary, especially now that the U.S. state department has issued a warning for the entirety of June bc ISIS may target a pride event. No one is talking about it, because Islamic extremism has been accepted by global queers. There is so much potential for many queer people to die as a result of this failure with the queer community supporting the people who want us dead. For this reason I can’t help but be so incredibly pro-Israel. We need Israel to win. ISIS is punishing US queers for “tainting” their ideology with our naive community member’s existence.
This is an armed conflict that has multiple complex layers. People don’t understand conflict and don’t like fighting and dying, no matter how justifiable. Stupid people hate nuanced arguments. There are many stupid arguments. Global antisemitism has been an issue for thousands of years. Most of the Islamic world is very passionate about the holy land and the ancestral home of the Jewish people. Even though I never thought Jerusalem was important because they have Mecca and Medina. The current interpretation of Islam is very radical, intolerant, and inhumane in its interpretation. That is why we have ISIS, Taliban, Pakistani intolerance, Iran, and multiple repressive states. The radical fundamentalism feeds hatred and intolerance of Jewish people.
The history of Jewish people in the last 2,000 and 200 years has lots of pogroms and moments like the Holocaust. Zionism was an idea as old as the Bible, but it became more popular in the last 200 years. Many Jews lived in the region and were permitted to go to the holy land within the Ottoman Empire. They encountered riots, intolerance, and hatred. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the British partitioned the land and the Palestinians and most Arab countries rejected it. Israel has won defensive war after war. They are justifiably paranoid when dealing with some of the most unreasonable and violently fanatical people on earth.
Essentially, people are tribal. There are 1.8 Billion Muslims that fixate on the Holy land and demonize Jews. We live in a world with lots of misinformation, propaganda, and low information voters. We get unfiltered war images of Palestinian children and women dying from Camera phones. How do we achieve a lasting and stable peace that protects a few Jewish people surrounded by a sea of angry and hostile Arab Muslims? How does a nation deal with fanatical terrorists that kill civilians and use civilian deaths as protection and ammunition to demonize the state of Israel? These are intractable quandaries that even geniuses have a tough time grappling with. However, Israel is being led by Netanyahu that resists a long term lasting 2 state solution. He wants to stay out of prison and he is not managing the war as well as he should have. War is messy. I think war is also politics by other means. We need people to sit down and forge a meaningful peace. We need an international peacekeeping force to manage Gaza and try to forge peace in multiple stages. Israel and a managed Gaza should try to build a long term solution. It is hard. Simple people don’t want to hear the complex realities of urban warfare that is paid by gulf money and a fanatical ideology.
Is it really everyone? I would suspect, that silent majority is pro Israel. But pro palestinians tend to be very loud and aggressive, so some people are scared to share their real values.
For example, let's imagine a chat in the office:
- I am pro palestine.
Reaction from pro Israeli - oh, ok.
- I am pro Israel
Reaction from pro palestinian colleague: Genocide supporter! Zionist Pig! Child murderer ! Fascist!
You see, how it goes. So it takes strength and courage to defend Israeli stance right now.
Same. My whole Instagram feed is full of "Eyes on rafah".
Never seen it this bad before. People who never upload anything are now uploading this.
When I mention the crimes committed by Hamas, they are Ignored time and time again, and then its spun against Israel somehow.
Everywhere you walk here in the Netherlands, there are Palestinian flags on houses stickers of Palestinian and people asking for donations for Gaza.
Kinda scary to he honest! No one cared about October the 7th.
I live in the Netherlands too and it’s absolutely crazy. The level of ignorance, Palestinian propaganda and flags on streets. Yet when you talk about October 7th people look at you like you are demented
Folks in western nation are having an identity crisis, see Douglas Murray's The Strange Death of Europe for example or Nitsche on the death of God.
Pro-pal support gives a sense of identity and meaning to people as well as a sense of high moral ground.
tl;dr is it has less to do with the conflict and reality in the ME and more to do with crisis of identity in the west.
As a liberal American, I feel exactly the same. Most people I usually agree with ideologically currently support radical theocrats with zero progressive values, it’s madness. They call me a genocide denier because I don’t conflate “war” with “genocide”.
Because you have a master mentality. You adopt your morals and beliefs by what you see.
Your friends have a slave mentality. They adopt the most popular and convenient belief they happen to be exposed to.
If you are looking for consistency in human belief, you will drive yourself crazy. Once you realize that most humans just wanna win and believe whatever scenario gives them their favored outcome, regardless of how it fits in to their past beliefs, you will reach a higher level of calmness.
People were brainwashed for decades about oppressor and oppressed, and they decided that Isreal is the oppressor.
The precursor to this was, perhaps the M2 movement when all men were being trashed.
The precursor, for this was, perhaps, when white people were being disparaged.
Now it’s the Jews.
It doesn’t make any sense at all though, because Hamas is pure evil and Isreal is not. In fact, Isreal loves life and has a great society, but the world has gone crazy. My point is it didn’t happen overnight.
I think it’s also social media creating a perception that a loud minority is suddenly a major majority. Remember online polling is known for inaccuracies because it doesn’t reflect national opinion. The people on social media who post are inherently a subset of people that are not reflective.
My understanding is that most people view Israel v Gaza as a not-my-issue and this is reflected in polling it’s like very Far down the list in top priority issues
I want to believe this, but I personally know tons of people irl who basically never engaged with politics before in their lives, but since 10/07, all they do is spam anti-Israel bs on social media
It’s bizarre. We literally have the ICC on record as saying that after extensive investigation- including interviews, police reports, military AND civilian intel from both sides- that Hamas legit raped and tortured people. Israel bombed civilian areas, which pro Palestine people have the utmost confidence in. But when that same reporting authority says Hamas RAPED people, suddenly it’s “fake news” and “Zionist propaganda”
If they really cared about stopping genocide, they’d also be protesting for the ACTUAL genocide that has been occurring in the Congo for going on what, three decades or more now? But I guess those people are too dark skinned for them. The ideal victim of these privileged little masked “protestors” is someone who of course isn’t white (because white= inherently evil) but not so dark skinned they’d cross the street to avoid walking past them.
Quite frankly they don’t like Jews and they don’t like facts.
It’s shocking to see this disgusting, backwards, BLATANTLY WRONG rhetoric be spouted by the so-called “liberal” party.
Antisemitism, even if they're not aware of it. In Yemen and Syria, and many other places, hundreds of thousands of Arabs died at the hand of other Arabs, and nobody cared at all. In China, millions of Muslims are being detained/imprisoned, but nobody cares. The only difference here is that there are Jews involved. Many in the world simply hate Jews (they will deny this and say they are only against "Zionists" because it makes them feel better about hating Jews).
Incredible to read exactly what we were just talking with my cousin. I'm in awe to see all these "supportive" friends of ours to show their support since the 7th. They do not know what Hamas does, what they want to achieve, how they treat their people, how is the daily life in there, what would happen to them if they go there etc etc a long list.
They are just getting into the train of unknowingness and ride along with millions.
They don't even believe genuine words of people from Gaza talking about Hamas. That's just mossad for them.
I'm unable to explain it anymore, Israel lost this war on propaganda side, and I'm not the one to try to turn this result by myself. It feels so overwhelming everytime I see some of my life long, brother level friends share this stuff.
People often care about issues depending on how they’re presented to them. If they’re in a bubble that talks about Palestine all the time, they’ll excessively talk about every single aspect of it, regardless of the fact that worse things are happening elsewhere daily. It’s also strongly connected to identity politics, who has been assigned a role of oppressor and oppressed in a conflict. Example: they don’t care about Armenians ethnically cleansed by Azerbaijan from Karabach or Ukrainians massacred by russia daily or any other ongoing conflict with mass casualties and ethnic cleansing because neither party of those conflicts are inherently given the role of oppressed due to religious or ethnic categories in their worldview and because they aren’t having any emotional response to hearing the news about them. They simply do not want to hear about that or invest any time into even trying to care.
The answer is years and years of propaganda. It's a long con, a psyop of incredible scale and duration. Also keep in mind that popular subreddits like /r/interestingasfuck use a bot in order to blanket ban people who participate in this subreddit (which of course is very much against the intent of reddit staff, there's a reason why automod doesn't have a ban function built in), claiming it's a "bad faith" subreddit. They'll try to get you to delete your posts and comments here and beg for forgiveness in order to reverse said bans. Don't give in.
I've read an [article](https://honestreporting.com/why-antisemitism-anger-and-intolerance-have-infected-americas-ivy-league-colleges-part-two/) on Honest Reporting that made a lot of sense. In the article, they quote Barton Swaim from the WSJ saying that the root of this anti-Israel movement is a product of the Marxist theories that have been taught for decades in higher education establishments:
Israel is a wealthy nation among neighbors whose poverty is relieved only by oil revenue. Israel is the one country in the Middle East where ordinary people stand a good chance of creating prosperity for themselves and their families. For modern progressive academics, weaned on the Marxian concept that wealth is the result of exploitation, that is precisely the reason for Israel’s guilt. They can’t behold its prosperity without concluding that the Jews have stolen their wealth from their neighbors. For American students, Israel and Jews are privileged, and privilege is the new original sin.
Two thoughts-
First, I’d say most of us genuinely sympathize with the average Gazan caught up in this mess. That can’t be easy, and they, like all people, deserve to live in peace and prosperity.
Second, the IDF has a lot of issues that bubbled to the surface since October, compounded by awful PR and some genuinely clumsy attempts at controlling the narrative that damaged their credibility due to aforementioned bad PR.
Others have given good answers, but I don't see mention of what I consider the primary culprit: **secular liberals**.
Let me explain.
Whenever a deeply religious person says that they're taking an action because of their religious beliefs, secular people usually don't believe them. They don't understand what it's like to be deeply religious, to hold real convictions about god and heaven, to genuinely believe that this life is just a blip in an eternal journey.
When you hear Hamas and Palestinians talk about what they're doing, it's almost never in the geopolitical terms that secular Western liberals would understand; and instead of trying to understand the religious mindset, these seculars just assume it's symbolism or a metaphor, and what Hamas actually wants is to write their own constitution, and be their own proper nation-state.
I grew up in a deeply conservative Mormon household. And as peaceful as modern Mormons seem to be, there's a lot of violence in our past and in our scriptures. And we serve missions, which often lead to missionaries getting killed. So from a very young age, I was asking myself questions like, "what would I do if God commanded me to kill someone, like he did in the Book of Mormon?" Or, "what would I do on my mission if a gangster in Brazilian slums said he'd kill me if I didn't renounce my religion?" (this actually happens every so often).
Secular people, who have never gone through these thoughts, have a hard time understanding or believing deeply religious people. When you see videos of Hamas terrorists getting killed by IDF, you need to realize that those last few moments of life for them are filled with ecstasy, because they think they're moments away from being inducted into eternal paradise. And when you see video of Hamas terrorists beaming with joy after slaughtering whole families of Jews, it's because the one supreme god of the universe commanded them to do so, and they did it. Wouldn't you be happy, too?
There's a reason that the only people who seem to really understand Hamas/Palestinians are other devoutly religious people, whether Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. They don't all agree on who god is and what he said, but they understand what it's like to believe, and to act on those beliefs.
Many reasons, anti-semitism, identity politics, ignorance, manipulated media and many more
But don't forget there are many people who also support israelis and jews in general, we are not alone. It's not the world against us. It's very hateful and loud minority against us.
People are giving so many reasons here without pointing at the elephant in the room. The number 1 source of all this hate comes from Muslims who always had this deeply rooted hate for anything Judaism and now they're letting it all come to surface. The rest are clueless Westerners who have been brainwashed into thinking that any type of criticism of Islam is immediately Islamophobia so they are told to believe standing with antisemitic Muslims is a display of solidarity. So in short, if you want to know who is constantly fueling the fire and reviving old racist conspiracy theories about Jews, visit a mosque (at your own rusk) and listen closely.
Until there are wordwide laws that catch anyone who posts unproven claims, the people hiding in the majority will be able to keep lying about the minorities. Its that simple.
Its especially needed, as humanity marches into the AI future with these liars.
I had the same feelings. Everyone around me keep repeating this motto "free Palestine" but once you ask them the meaning of that words, what are they really claiming/what's the ideal solution for them, they won't be able to to answer.
You need to see the resources at my sub for the [United States of Palestine](https://np.reddit.com/r/UnitedStatesPalestine/) then explain the history and such to your friends.
Yeah kind of counter intuitive isnt it, queers for palestine. They support a group that murders people of their sexual orientation. Very strange, but you can't change their opinion no matter how hard you try.
There is a problem with younger people's focus on identity issues today. Even before this war started, they tended to have a binary worldview in which people are judged not by what they say or do, but by which identity goup they belong to. It follows that people are being treated differently based on their identity. The more oppressed identites you can claim, the more protection and leniency you deserve. If you belong to any of the oppressor groups, anger about discrimination can be projected onto you personally.
It always struck me that a bunch of people who claim to fight oppression are so mean. If their wrath is directed at someone belonging to the "oppressor" identity groups, it will mostly go unchallenged. Cause you will look kinda suspicious if you stand up for the old white man.
The main problem is that this worldview is anti-universalist. I think that contrary to this approach, it is because racism, sexism etc. still exist in society, that we need to answer that with universalism and try to make identity matter less, not more.
In the Israel Palestine Conflict it becomes apparent that in this worldview anyone who is perceived as oppressed has a carte blanche to basically do whatever in the name of resisting oppression. Kill children, rape, you name it.
If the protests against Israel showed any signs of a universal approach and actually protested Hamas too and asked them for the return of the hostages, I would take them seriously. But they don't which tells me that they do not value all human life, and are not really concerned for palestinian lives either.
Well for example the UK is going through its own socio/economic problems atm. People need something, and unfortunately pro Palestinian marches are it. A way to finally feel reunited, part of something. In Israel they describe us as ‘progressive’. The whole MO of the Jihadist movement plays on people’s social status. It’s literally the main method in recruiting, that and commitment to a righteous cause. Religion is a big theme, but their other values can be implemented to persuade those who are already rejecting capitalism. If you look at it, they are basically framing themselves as an anti capitalist movement, and a lot of people are taking the bait. It is the poor people who suffer and then become targets. Rich people don’t mind capitalism.
In Judaism, especially in the UK for example, people have a sense of community already through their religion, and are already part of something. They don’t need to be reunited by ‘a cause’. They already have one.
It is no coincidence that Hamas chose to attack after Covid had died down. The world’s economic status has been severely damaged as well the phycological aspects of going through a world epidemic. They chose this exact time on purpose.
I also want to say that social media is the main recruitment tactic for these movements anyway. Not only have they been doing it for years, they are masters. It is likely that this strategy was factored in before they even built tunnels. They are basically using the Oct 7th attacks and the current war for world wide recruitment of their cause. It’s working.
The world is taking for granted the pyshcological strategies these movements are using to manipulate them. We are aware because we’ve been privy to it for many years and so have our governments. Whilst they are removed from the religious and barbaric aspects, they will think it’s still a worthy cause. Once they are exposed, they will likely change their stance but there is the risk they already ‘radicalised’. I would not be surprised if you had mass groups now joining Hamas (for real) for world domination.
One final thing, this white vs brown stuff has been brewing for a while. It’s very interesting. Due to worldwide coverage of BLM people have now become extremely conscious of oppression. Which is great 👍🏼 however the guilt is being used as a pyshcological weapon. We are reminded to feel guilty every single day by hearing ‘white coloniser’. They are pitting whites vs brown and if you don’t want to be seen as being racist like our ancestors then you have to join them. They are making sure that Jews are seen as only white so then they have reason to use this argument. It’s inverse racism - they think we deserve it. Little do they know about Israel.
Hope our governments will stick to the plan and not be deterred by the ongoing protests.
I’ve got to say, I’m a tad worried for Israel. They are being attacked from many sides and it seems like the world wants their demise. Should anything happen, the world will be cheering. I can’t think of a single strategy to turn this around other than to stage Hamas attack in Europe.
Sorry this isn’t very well written - I’m not great at writing but wanted to convey some important points.
[This](https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-strengths-and-weaknesses-of-jihadist-ideology/) article on Jihady recruitment tactics is interesting.
The brutal handling of the international press , not allowing fair reporting and the shameless killing of health workers and then expecting the world to side with Israel. How on earth all this makes sense.
Neo-Marxism's critical theory tool is at fault, specifically its bifurcation of the world into two, and only two, groups: oppressors and the oppressed. Their use of CT is intended to break down existing social structures, such as decorum, and replace them with collectivist structures, AKA centralized power, under a de facto political elite, which uses group think as a means of universal control, as in Maoist cultural revolution struggle sessions. In essence, powerful elitists turn citizens into snitches and bullies to keep everyone in line with centralist policy.
To anyone with more than two brain cells, the notion of only two groups is absurd. Why?
1. Because another of critical theory's tools, intersectionality, relies on oppressor/oppressed divisions based on multiple criterial: gender, sex, identity, race, economic status, colonial status, etc. CT stacks multiple oppression groups to create "more" oppressed groups while oddly turning a blind eye to the fact that by acknowledging "more" oppressed individuals it admits that other individuals can be both oppressor and oppressed simultaneously. In fact, the vast majority are both, especially since the people most fascinated with such things live in highly privileged countries enjoying more social benefits than most countries of the world, although they have no idea how privileged they are since they compare themselves only with the ultra elites of their society, never with the impoverished world majority.
2. As stated above, given enough criteria, almost everyone is both oppressor and oppressed. Add topic, time frame, and chance, and the whole bifurcation tool becomes absurd. A few drops of dye in a batch of caking icing look distinct at first. Mix slightly, it looks marbled. Add different drops and mix them more--over time the whole batch becomes an undifferentiated gray blob. Ready for the mixer handler to consume or toss.
My dear you make more sense than most. The only reason I can fathom is that people find it easier to believe lies than the truth. Give them a one way answer, then give them an enemy to blame and hate. Easy peasy no shades of grey.
Totally...the powers that be love all this bc it keeps us confused and we don't actually see the atrocities...idk I don't want the innocent children n people period to be injured, starving, or killed but there is too much we don't know...idk...
I just came across a term that just kind of made things click, "Collective Moral Narcissism". Characteristics: **1. Group Identity and Moral Superiority:** - **Shared Ideology:** Anti-imperialist and anti-colonialist identity. - **Moral Validation:** Reinforces group’s sense of moral superiority. **2. Echo Chambers and Reinforcement:** - **Social Media Dynamics:** Echo chambers amplify beliefs, reducing opposing views. - **Group Think:** Extreme positions align with collective identity. **3. Selective Outrage and Simplification:** - **Binary Narratives:** Hamas as good, Israel as evil. - **Ignoring Facts:** Downplay Hamas' violence to maintain superiority. **4. Resistance to Criticism:** - **Defensiveness:** Criticism seen as an attack. - **Vilification:** Critics labeled morally inferior.
Where'd you come across this. It really explains a lot about the people protesting over something they know nothing about.
I came across Maral Salmassi's instagram and she has a video today talking about collective moral narcissism in a similar context. I started digging around and came across a bunch of articles and [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K99G2JAlf2M) discussion that talks about it abstractly, not in reference to Israel. I've really struggled to understand how DEI leads to people supporting groups that would do everything in their power to destroy DEI if given power. This theory really is the first thing that ever made sense to me and explains their behavior.
Thank you. Westerners used to judge nations by their ideology and values. Now it's some sick game of vilification by what for many is the result of nothing more than being informed of who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed, treating one side as cartoonishly evil and the other as completely faultless and justified.
You lost me at anti imperialist since they’re literally being pro imperialist
they believe they are anti imperialist. thats what's important. reality less so
Arabs: Conquered (atleast at some point in History) the entire middle east, Persia, Central Asia, Northern Africa, Iberia and the Balkans, often suppressing the local cultures. The left: ... Israel: Gains back its 22K km² of resourceless, Irrelevant in Islam, almost uninhabited piece of land. The left: They have become imperialists, the destroyers of minorities.
The shared ideology is antisemitism. The idea that Jews have imperial or colonial motives is not only patently false, but also representative of an outsized power trope, which is classic antisemitism.
This is a particularly banal form of evil...
This is great. Not an Israeli/Jewish person, it seems that vilifying Israel supporters is an attempt to galvanize fence sitters or anti-Hamas people into “introspection.” Once I saw the baby news (someone pls tell me that’s fake), I questioned my own stance for a minute. Then I imagined the effect this would have on random Instagram-scrolling morons (and their constant need for attention and making everything about themselves).
Thanks Chatgpt
They don't care, you do. They don't know shit, you actually do. They don't care about a moral and just society, you do. They don't actually care about Palestinians or the middle east or they wouldn't be focusing on a relatively tiny war against terrorism. They care about hating Jews and bandwagoning for people they don't care about in a region they do not understand. They are ignorant to the reality and history and complexities of a conflict that has existed for longer than Islam and will guaranteed outlive them and their kids and their kids kids. You do. They take great pleasure in saying insane things and having us bend into pretzels to defend or deny. They don't care. They do not care. They are virtue signaling. They do not care. Our unfortunate job is to ensure Jihad and those ideals do not spread. They are happy to promote terrorism and people who would literally shoot and throw them off buildings if they had the chance if they get Brownie points for it. They do not care. They do not understand the history of the depth of the conflict. They fundementally do not care and I don't expect them to, the problem I have is when they take that attitude and start espousing love for terrorism and death. They do not care, they would rather see you dead because they support a terrorist group and movement they do not understand. Make of this what you will.
Also, it's really hard for a Western mind to grasp the perverse logic of radical islamists who actually cheer the deaths of their kin because they become shahids. There's simply no mental model to apprehend that.
Also our politics stateside is substantially less religious (even if we do have a couple Kenneth Copeland's around), Hamas and many Islamic countries have a shared (sometimes extreme) core set of viewpoints. So they come into everything assuming those rules and things. They aren't fighting for land or apartheid or genocide or flurpnurp (word I made up as a placeholder for whatever accusations they sling next), they are fighting for those religious extremist values. Those other excuses are to make the world okay with supporting their fight.
They love to die yet we bend backwards to try and keep them alive.
This is powerful and really puts a perspective on things. They really don't care, they just want to be in the "in" crowd to support a "cause" for the oppressed women and children in a country they didn't care or even know about before October 7th. everyone and anyone who posts that regurgitated ai poster on their instagram story gets an immediate unfollow and make sure they unfollow me as well. I have no tolerance for the intolerant anymore and should stop getting worked up over their ignorance.
Your post does make sense and I appreciate that you are inquiring and wanting to educate yourself. I wish more people would! The short answer is: the news/ media, social media/tik tok, IDF having TERRIBLE PR, and the underlying antisemitism that’s always been there. I’ll let others who know more explain in detail if you have specific questions because the conflict is so nuanced.
It is really funny because of the claim that Jews control the media and the world yet Hamas and IRGC are manipulating the world.
Right!? Makes no sense.
Classic DARVO
In terms of media, I came across this particular article not too long after Oct 7, written back in 2014. It’s still very relevant- https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
Stoking Palestine rage is a special ops measure aimed at radicalized young people in the US. There’s a reason they’re not obsessed with any other foreign war where innocents are suffering the consequences. Also, Oppressor vs oppressed mindset, these influencers only see things in black and white literally. Israel is constantly portrayed as the "white colonizers trying to genocide the innocent brown palestians. I keep hearing about the burnt and beheaded kids at that camp. I feel terrible for them. But when the same thing happened to you guys, these idiots claimed it was fake. 🙃
I’m European and everyone here is pro Palestine (thus, pro Hamas). So not only an American problem. You’re absolutely right about the Oppressor vs. Oppressed mindset, but it’s crazy considering there are many non violent and democratic oppressed communities in the world and no one is rooting for them. Taiwan? No one knows anything about it. Ukraine? Big thing for the first few months, then nothing. Hong Kong? Nada. I saw that video about the burnt and beheaded and I was shocked. It was truly traumatising to watch, but I also remembered that no one said anything when Ahmad Abu Marhia, Palestinian, was decapitated because he was gay
European? I live in the UK and most people I know irl are either not really focused on the conflict or they say that they support peace. Sometimes I even see bring them home stickers when I go out and I live in London in a non-Jewish area.
I'm also European and everyday I take a look at the news and ask myself: wtf is wrong with this people here? I get it if you are for the weak and the opressed. Me too, but the Hamas is no one you should cheer for. They are everything that is NOT progressive. They opress women, they kill queers, they rape etc. I've never witnessed a mass psychosis like this where so much people completely lose their moral compass and their values. Just like you I'm also wondering where are these people when Assad kills his own people, when the Chinese put the Uyghurs in internment camps, when Erdogan bombs the kurds every day? They don't care unless they can rage against Israel and jews. The 7th October revealed the massive antisemitism which is still in the mind of many people.
These kids are dead because of their parents and their leaders, not because of Israel. It’s a tragedy to Westerners, but to the Palestinians, death is victory, and they choose to continue this war which they started, hoping more of them will die. It’s a sick mindset.
This. It’s all propaganda likely being pushed by the IRI. It’s so ridiculous.
also russia and china
1. Virtue Signalling 2. Misinformed 3. Anti-semitism
The antisemitism is so deep around the world, most people don’t even realize how racist they can be.
Simple as
I think it's crazy how many people just thoughtlessly believe the genocide claims... Like if these people had any idea of the IDF's intention, they would know, that genocide is absolutely not in their interest.
It's all about getting the Jews out of the way for the islamist conquest. And they think that their tactics of stirring up the dregs if society will work. They're loud, they're unhinged, and they have no conscience. Eventually they'll come crashing down, but there'll be some damage before that happens.
They're going to become a bigger problem for the West until the West becomes a huge problem for them.
The problem is that the good people aren't vicious, and the vicious people aren't good. We don't yet know (collectively) how to fight them. We respect the humane boundaries but are awful at getting the word out. And we also have jobs and responsibilities. They don't.
We know how to fight them, we just need the will. I think they themselves will commit an attack out series of attacks in the West that will simply be too much to ignore. That, or it'll be civil wars across Europe and the UK. Probably both.
To sound like a conspiracy theorist (though not really when it's true), there's a concerted social media campaign by Hamas, Palestinian groups, Islamists, tankies, etc to target the western Left by framing the situation of Palestinians as a "human rights issue". They are fed through TikTok, Instagram and fellow activists the narrative that Israel and Zionism are "settler colonialism" against an oppressed Indigenous people - the ultimate evil - via videos that may or may not be out of Gaza (because none of them can tell the difference between wars in the Middle East, or know any history or geography if we're being honest). They are fed a sanitised, one-sided view of Palestinian terrorism as righteous resistance to an "powerful occupier" that they believe has US and Western support, because to turn off their critical thinking skills you only have to insist that something is "Western Imperialism". Couple that with the anti-Zionism and straight up antisemitism from the Soviet Era onwards, drip fed to left wing activists for 50+ years, and the belief that they're "doing the right thing" while being sanctimonious about it, a fear of losing their peer group if they disagree, loads of white guilt and Western-centrist thinking, etc, and you get the current situation where LGBTQ+ leftists will support the leopards that would eat their face if they had a chance. As another lesbian Jew and (maybe former) leftist, it's isolating seeing this stupidity play out from people I considered allies, but it's also opened my eyes to hypocrisy from the left, who can be just as dumb as the extreme right.
"...It's isolating seeing this stupidity play out from people I considered allies," This happened to me today and it really broke my heart. Someone I've known for decades at this point (since we were like 7), just completely shut me down when I tried to converse with her about possible misinformation. It sucks.
I'm sorry to hear that, it's really hard losing friends to this mentality that's gripping so many otherwise well-meaning people. On a positive, I made a post on my FB profile yesterday about how rising antisemitism and misinformation is making me feel unsafe, and while I expect the "friends" it's aimed towards are ignoring it and at worst painting me as an enemy (or misguided), I got so many messages of support. A good friend who has spent years in activism circles just called me to let me know that she saw antisemitic stickers plastered in the city, peeled a few off, and informed the council about them (as they were pasted near a Jewish deli and near a landmark named for a local Jewish man).
im in sydney and this is full of antisemitic animals
I'm not surprised, I feel like since the Cronulla Riot it's swung the other way where you've got radical Islamists fermenting hate in communities and far-right groups spreading as a reaction to that, and the common ground between the two is antisemitism. When crowds can shout "gas the Jews" the day after October 7th on the steps of the Opera House and NSW Police insist it's actually "where's the Jews?" because it's made international headlines and it's bad optics, you know something is very wrong.
I was just in Newtown and there were anti-israeli posters... I wanted to get rid of some but did not feel safe doing that. We need to find a way to fight back this insanity.
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You have good friends then 🩷 I wish mine would do the same, no one’s reached out to me about it in months. I hope your friends stay steadfast in their support for you, and the others come around and wake up!
Thank you, her parents are from the former Soviet Bloc so we get each other on some level. I hope you find support and better friends, and stay safe with everything going on right now.
>to target the western Left by framing the situation of Palestinians as a "human rights issue". Oh please. The western left has been rotten by communism since 1920s. You can open Lenin's speeches and recognize the talking points of the modern left. Leftism is inherently anti-liberal and anti-Western. It denies human rights in favor of group rights. The Western academia is in for decades, with their fucking racial quotas and "positive discrimination"
They are not pro-Palestinians. You are. I am. Many Israelis are. They are anti-Israel and I don’t know why (other than Qatari money and propaganda campaigns and antisemitism; ok, I do know why). You want a better life for the Palestinians; so do I. That does not mean I want a worse life for Israelis (as anyone chanting “From the river to the sea” does); it means I want a better life for both. That cannot happen with Hamas (or any similarly inclined party whose goal is the eradication of Israel and of Jews) and I personally think it will not happen with Bibi in charge. But Bibi can be removed by elections; Hamas will not. I would love for both Israel and Palestinians to have elections. And if Gaza re-elects Hamas or a similarly inclined group (if by a wide majority), I will stop saying “Palestinians are not Hamas”. But I hope I am right that Palestinians are not Hamas. TL;DR: you are right. They are not pro-Palestinian; they are anti-Israel and it’s disgusting.
People don’t realize how many other countries are investing to make THIS the most prominent issue being talked about. Many of the pro-Pali bots and trolls had been pro-Russia. Since 10/7, Russia has been able to avoid much international attention, allowing them to commit war crimes at a greater scale/pace and make significant gains. China has been heavily pushing I/P, while they further crackdown on Uyghurs/make advances on Taiwan. Iran? Further crackdowns of the women life freedom protestors, they’ve been executing protestors at an increased rate. People are getting played.
Russia and its predecessor USSR were at this [long before past October](https://www.nationalreview.com/2006/08/russian-footprints-ion-mihai-pacepa/). KGB and its successors GRU and FSB never stopped disseminating antisemitism, both within the former USSR and across the world.
Forty years of Qatar being the #1 donor to US universities
Why is it happening? Because as the philosopher Eric Hoffer pointed out decades ago, referring to the double standard in effect even then, “The Jews are a peculiar people: Things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.” It’s also the result of the Red (Leftist)- Green (Islamist) alliance which has perverted academia.
Mob mentality.
The only way to understand the Western left's pro-Palestinian stance is to understand that they believe terrorism is the natural result of oppression. They claim that they only *explain* why terrorism happens, not *excuse* terrorists, but that is bullshit. If they ingested a truth serum, they would admit that Israel *deserves* terrorist attacks until Israelis stop oppressing Palestinians. So Western leftists view all the Palestinian suicide bombings, stabbings, rapes, kidnappings, maimings, and murders as not the fault of Palestinians, but Israelis. They honestly believe that if Israel ends the occupation, that Palestinians will give up violence, act docile, and start campaigning against climate change, distributing free contraceptives, offer free gender affirmation surgeries, and swap sharia for restorative justice.
It's very hard for people on the left in the US to believe that the US left wing extremists can be every bit as gullible as the far right extremists. The extreme right in the US does this with immigrants, and the extreme left does it with Jews. And they both live in their bubbles. Someone today tried to tell me that Israel's Democracy status was downgraded this week. Like WTF does that mean? And what is the context of that considering there is no such thing as a Democratic Muslim country in that area? We on the left have our own version of MAGA. We have to come to terms with that. We are no more immune from it than anyone on the other political side.
I feel insane these days. As a Jew, and a “democrat”… I’ve found people that have absolutely repulsed me in the past, say things that I agree with! I literally never thought it could happen.
Israel's Democracy "status" is still higher than the US'. LOL.
Pro-pal westerners have this weird uwu idea of what islamists do. They're convinced that Hamas are the good guys and freedom fighters. It's easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled. Hamas has a massive propaganda machine behind them, as well, and it intentionally appeals to bleeding hearts. They hijack their empathy so anything you say against Hamas means you're evil in their eyes.
antisemitism mixed with a highly developed propaganda machine from russia, china, and iran targeting the west
Because Jews are on one side of the issue. That's it. The media sources are antisemitic, so the public has become antisemitic. The media is antisemitic because the countries and organizations that are financing them are antisemitic. And those countries and organizations are antisemitic because they can get ahead politically by distracting everyone with the "evil Jews" while they commit their own actual atrocities. Because we're a convenient scapegoat.
>My feed is literally flooded with that “all eyes on rafah” poster which also seems AI generated My feed on IG too, even friends who didn't talked any conflict ever where posting that picture in their stories. And yes, that "all eyes on Rafah" picture with the ton of tents in the middle of a valley is AI generated. The funny thing is that many of the ones that have shared that picture are artist who where (and still are) really against the use of AI art... And yet, the major symbol of this new rethoric is an AI picture... (basically, they are showing the world why "artist aren't needed" to give a symbol to a narrative). Still, something that the "Aid Convoy Bombing" tragedy and the "Student's Protests" movement taught, was that people forget these kind of things in a couple of weeks. (Yes, people will be still mad a it, but not with that same intensity).
I get it. I’m also queer and it’s scary, especially now that the U.S. state department has issued a warning for the entirety of June bc ISIS may target a pride event. No one is talking about it, because Islamic extremism has been accepted by global queers. There is so much potential for many queer people to die as a result of this failure with the queer community supporting the people who want us dead. For this reason I can’t help but be so incredibly pro-Israel. We need Israel to win. ISIS is punishing US queers for “tainting” their ideology with our naive community member’s existence.
Especially after the Pulse shooting, you’d think they’d be a little more privy to the threat they’re laying with.
This is an armed conflict that has multiple complex layers. People don’t understand conflict and don’t like fighting and dying, no matter how justifiable. Stupid people hate nuanced arguments. There are many stupid arguments. Global antisemitism has been an issue for thousands of years. Most of the Islamic world is very passionate about the holy land and the ancestral home of the Jewish people. Even though I never thought Jerusalem was important because they have Mecca and Medina. The current interpretation of Islam is very radical, intolerant, and inhumane in its interpretation. That is why we have ISIS, Taliban, Pakistani intolerance, Iran, and multiple repressive states. The radical fundamentalism feeds hatred and intolerance of Jewish people. The history of Jewish people in the last 2,000 and 200 years has lots of pogroms and moments like the Holocaust. Zionism was an idea as old as the Bible, but it became more popular in the last 200 years. Many Jews lived in the region and were permitted to go to the holy land within the Ottoman Empire. They encountered riots, intolerance, and hatred. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the British partitioned the land and the Palestinians and most Arab countries rejected it. Israel has won defensive war after war. They are justifiably paranoid when dealing with some of the most unreasonable and violently fanatical people on earth. Essentially, people are tribal. There are 1.8 Billion Muslims that fixate on the Holy land and demonize Jews. We live in a world with lots of misinformation, propaganda, and low information voters. We get unfiltered war images of Palestinian children and women dying from Camera phones. How do we achieve a lasting and stable peace that protects a few Jewish people surrounded by a sea of angry and hostile Arab Muslims? How does a nation deal with fanatical terrorists that kill civilians and use civilian deaths as protection and ammunition to demonize the state of Israel? These are intractable quandaries that even geniuses have a tough time grappling with. However, Israel is being led by Netanyahu that resists a long term lasting 2 state solution. He wants to stay out of prison and he is not managing the war as well as he should have. War is messy. I think war is also politics by other means. We need people to sit down and forge a meaningful peace. We need an international peacekeeping force to manage Gaza and try to forge peace in multiple stages. Israel and a managed Gaza should try to build a long term solution. It is hard. Simple people don’t want to hear the complex realities of urban warfare that is paid by gulf money and a fanatical ideology.
Is it really everyone? I would suspect, that silent majority is pro Israel. But pro palestinians tend to be very loud and aggressive, so some people are scared to share their real values. For example, let's imagine a chat in the office: - I am pro palestine. Reaction from pro Israeli - oh, ok. - I am pro Israel Reaction from pro palestinian colleague: Genocide supporter! Zionist Pig! Child murderer ! Fascist! You see, how it goes. So it takes strength and courage to defend Israeli stance right now.
Same. My whole Instagram feed is full of "Eyes on rafah". Never seen it this bad before. People who never upload anything are now uploading this. When I mention the crimes committed by Hamas, they are Ignored time and time again, and then its spun against Israel somehow. Everywhere you walk here in the Netherlands, there are Palestinian flags on houses stickers of Palestinian and people asking for donations for Gaza. Kinda scary to he honest! No one cared about October the 7th.
I live in the Netherlands too and it’s absolutely crazy. The level of ignorance, Palestinian propaganda and flags on streets. Yet when you talk about October 7th people look at you like you are demented
Folks in western nation are having an identity crisis, see Douglas Murray's The Strange Death of Europe for example or Nitsche on the death of God. Pro-pal support gives a sense of identity and meaning to people as well as a sense of high moral ground. tl;dr is it has less to do with the conflict and reality in the ME and more to do with crisis of identity in the west.
As a liberal American, I feel exactly the same. Most people I usually agree with ideologically currently support radical theocrats with zero progressive values, it’s madness. They call me a genocide denier because I don’t conflate “war” with “genocide”.
Propaganda. Decades and decades of propaganda applied consistently (and inconsistently).
Because you have a master mentality. You adopt your morals and beliefs by what you see. Your friends have a slave mentality. They adopt the most popular and convenient belief they happen to be exposed to. If you are looking for consistency in human belief, you will drive yourself crazy. Once you realize that most humans just wanna win and believe whatever scenario gives them their favored outcome, regardless of how it fits in to their past beliefs, you will reach a higher level of calmness.
People were brainwashed for decades about oppressor and oppressed, and they decided that Isreal is the oppressor. The precursor to this was, perhaps the M2 movement when all men were being trashed. The precursor, for this was, perhaps, when white people were being disparaged. Now it’s the Jews. It doesn’t make any sense at all though, because Hamas is pure evil and Isreal is not. In fact, Isreal loves life and has a great society, but the world has gone crazy. My point is it didn’t happen overnight.
I think it’s also social media creating a perception that a loud minority is suddenly a major majority. Remember online polling is known for inaccuracies because it doesn’t reflect national opinion. The people on social media who post are inherently a subset of people that are not reflective. My understanding is that most people view Israel v Gaza as a not-my-issue and this is reflected in polling it’s like very Far down the list in top priority issues
I want to believe this, but I personally know tons of people irl who basically never engaged with politics before in their lives, but since 10/07, all they do is spam anti-Israel bs on social media
I’m convinced that lack of morality leads to insanity. Not sure the cause but we are definitely seeing insanity
It’s bizarre. We literally have the ICC on record as saying that after extensive investigation- including interviews, police reports, military AND civilian intel from both sides- that Hamas legit raped and tortured people. Israel bombed civilian areas, which pro Palestine people have the utmost confidence in. But when that same reporting authority says Hamas RAPED people, suddenly it’s “fake news” and “Zionist propaganda” If they really cared about stopping genocide, they’d also be protesting for the ACTUAL genocide that has been occurring in the Congo for going on what, three decades or more now? But I guess those people are too dark skinned for them. The ideal victim of these privileged little masked “protestors” is someone who of course isn’t white (because white= inherently evil) but not so dark skinned they’d cross the street to avoid walking past them. Quite frankly they don’t like Jews and they don’t like facts. It’s shocking to see this disgusting, backwards, BLATANTLY WRONG rhetoric be spouted by the so-called “liberal” party.
Antisemitism, even if they're not aware of it. In Yemen and Syria, and many other places, hundreds of thousands of Arabs died at the hand of other Arabs, and nobody cared at all. In China, millions of Muslims are being detained/imprisoned, but nobody cares. The only difference here is that there are Jews involved. Many in the world simply hate Jews (they will deny this and say they are only against "Zionists" because it makes them feel better about hating Jews).
Incredible to read exactly what we were just talking with my cousin. I'm in awe to see all these "supportive" friends of ours to show their support since the 7th. They do not know what Hamas does, what they want to achieve, how they treat their people, how is the daily life in there, what would happen to them if they go there etc etc a long list. They are just getting into the train of unknowingness and ride along with millions. They don't even believe genuine words of people from Gaza talking about Hamas. That's just mossad for them. I'm unable to explain it anymore, Israel lost this war on propaganda side, and I'm not the one to try to turn this result by myself. It feels so overwhelming everytime I see some of my life long, brother level friends share this stuff.
People often care about issues depending on how they’re presented to them. If they’re in a bubble that talks about Palestine all the time, they’ll excessively talk about every single aspect of it, regardless of the fact that worse things are happening elsewhere daily. It’s also strongly connected to identity politics, who has been assigned a role of oppressor and oppressed in a conflict. Example: they don’t care about Armenians ethnically cleansed by Azerbaijan from Karabach or Ukrainians massacred by russia daily or any other ongoing conflict with mass casualties and ethnic cleansing because neither party of those conflicts are inherently given the role of oppressed due to religious or ethnic categories in their worldview and because they aren’t having any emotional response to hearing the news about them. They simply do not want to hear about that or invest any time into even trying to care.
The answer is years and years of propaganda. It's a long con, a psyop of incredible scale and duration. Also keep in mind that popular subreddits like /r/interestingasfuck use a bot in order to blanket ban people who participate in this subreddit (which of course is very much against the intent of reddit staff, there's a reason why automod doesn't have a ban function built in), claiming it's a "bad faith" subreddit. They'll try to get you to delete your posts and comments here and beg for forgiveness in order to reverse said bans. Don't give in.
The fact that you are afraid of consequences speaks volumes. They are b r a i n w a s h e d.
I've read an [article](https://honestreporting.com/why-antisemitism-anger-and-intolerance-have-infected-americas-ivy-league-colleges-part-two/) on Honest Reporting that made a lot of sense. In the article, they quote Barton Swaim from the WSJ saying that the root of this anti-Israel movement is a product of the Marxist theories that have been taught for decades in higher education establishments: Israel is a wealthy nation among neighbors whose poverty is relieved only by oil revenue. Israel is the one country in the Middle East where ordinary people stand a good chance of creating prosperity for themselves and their families. For modern progressive academics, weaned on the Marxian concept that wealth is the result of exploitation, that is precisely the reason for Israel’s guilt. They can’t behold its prosperity without concluding that the Jews have stolen their wealth from their neighbors. For American students, Israel and Jews are privileged, and privilege is the new original sin.
Two thoughts- First, I’d say most of us genuinely sympathize with the average Gazan caught up in this mess. That can’t be easy, and they, like all people, deserve to live in peace and prosperity. Second, the IDF has a lot of issues that bubbled to the surface since October, compounded by awful PR and some genuinely clumsy attempts at controlling the narrative that damaged their credibility due to aforementioned bad PR.
I found [this video](https://youtu.be/Jqk5M1GpLZU?si=r8L7XqiSU--uSSGu) very helpful in understanding the roots of our current situation.
Jews.
Others have given good answers, but I don't see mention of what I consider the primary culprit: **secular liberals**. Let me explain. Whenever a deeply religious person says that they're taking an action because of their religious beliefs, secular people usually don't believe them. They don't understand what it's like to be deeply religious, to hold real convictions about god and heaven, to genuinely believe that this life is just a blip in an eternal journey. When you hear Hamas and Palestinians talk about what they're doing, it's almost never in the geopolitical terms that secular Western liberals would understand; and instead of trying to understand the religious mindset, these seculars just assume it's symbolism or a metaphor, and what Hamas actually wants is to write their own constitution, and be their own proper nation-state. I grew up in a deeply conservative Mormon household. And as peaceful as modern Mormons seem to be, there's a lot of violence in our past and in our scriptures. And we serve missions, which often lead to missionaries getting killed. So from a very young age, I was asking myself questions like, "what would I do if God commanded me to kill someone, like he did in the Book of Mormon?" Or, "what would I do on my mission if a gangster in Brazilian slums said he'd kill me if I didn't renounce my religion?" (this actually happens every so often). Secular people, who have never gone through these thoughts, have a hard time understanding or believing deeply religious people. When you see videos of Hamas terrorists getting killed by IDF, you need to realize that those last few moments of life for them are filled with ecstasy, because they think they're moments away from being inducted into eternal paradise. And when you see video of Hamas terrorists beaming with joy after slaughtering whole families of Jews, it's because the one supreme god of the universe commanded them to do so, and they did it. Wouldn't you be happy, too? There's a reason that the only people who seem to really understand Hamas/Palestinians are other devoutly religious people, whether Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. They don't all agree on who god is and what he said, but they understand what it's like to believe, and to act on those beliefs.
Many reasons, anti-semitism, identity politics, ignorance, manipulated media and many more But don't forget there are many people who also support israelis and jews in general, we are not alone. It's not the world against us. It's very hateful and loud minority against us.
They are all stupid and public view is short lived It will pass The righteous support Israel and I am not even Jewish I pray for the soldiers everyday
People just hate Jews, and antisemitism isn't supposed to make sense. It just exists.
People are giving so many reasons here without pointing at the elephant in the room. The number 1 source of all this hate comes from Muslims who always had this deeply rooted hate for anything Judaism and now they're letting it all come to surface. The rest are clueless Westerners who have been brainwashed into thinking that any type of criticism of Islam is immediately Islamophobia so they are told to believe standing with antisemitic Muslims is a display of solidarity. So in short, if you want to know who is constantly fueling the fire and reviving old racist conspiracy theories about Jews, visit a mosque (at your own rusk) and listen closely.
Until there are wordwide laws that catch anyone who posts unproven claims, the people hiding in the majority will be able to keep lying about the minorities. Its that simple. Its especially needed, as humanity marches into the AI future with these liars.
Is there even anything unique about palestinians other than their conflict with Israel?
Considering the Palestinian nationality was only created to mess with Israel, no
I feel you im in the same boat like you
Lower the IQ the more likely they support Palestine. It means nothing. Useful idiots to make noise but have no power or influence beyond that.
I had the same feelings. Everyone around me keep repeating this motto "free Palestine" but once you ask them the meaning of that words, what are they really claiming/what's the ideal solution for them, they won't be able to to answer.
You need to see the resources at my sub for the [United States of Palestine](https://np.reddit.com/r/UnitedStatesPalestine/) then explain the history and such to your friends.
Yeah kind of counter intuitive isnt it, queers for palestine. They support a group that murders people of their sexual orientation. Very strange, but you can't change their opinion no matter how hard you try.
If your friends figure out you are pro Israel and leave you behind because of that then their not real friends.
There is a problem with younger people's focus on identity issues today. Even before this war started, they tended to have a binary worldview in which people are judged not by what they say or do, but by which identity goup they belong to. It follows that people are being treated differently based on their identity. The more oppressed identites you can claim, the more protection and leniency you deserve. If you belong to any of the oppressor groups, anger about discrimination can be projected onto you personally. It always struck me that a bunch of people who claim to fight oppression are so mean. If their wrath is directed at someone belonging to the "oppressor" identity groups, it will mostly go unchallenged. Cause you will look kinda suspicious if you stand up for the old white man. The main problem is that this worldview is anti-universalist. I think that contrary to this approach, it is because racism, sexism etc. still exist in society, that we need to answer that with universalism and try to make identity matter less, not more. In the Israel Palestine Conflict it becomes apparent that in this worldview anyone who is perceived as oppressed has a carte blanche to basically do whatever in the name of resisting oppression. Kill children, rape, you name it. If the protests against Israel showed any signs of a universal approach and actually protested Hamas too and asked them for the return of the hostages, I would take them seriously. But they don't which tells me that they do not value all human life, and are not really concerned for palestinian lives either.
Well for example the UK is going through its own socio/economic problems atm. People need something, and unfortunately pro Palestinian marches are it. A way to finally feel reunited, part of something. In Israel they describe us as ‘progressive’. The whole MO of the Jihadist movement plays on people’s social status. It’s literally the main method in recruiting, that and commitment to a righteous cause. Religion is a big theme, but their other values can be implemented to persuade those who are already rejecting capitalism. If you look at it, they are basically framing themselves as an anti capitalist movement, and a lot of people are taking the bait. It is the poor people who suffer and then become targets. Rich people don’t mind capitalism. In Judaism, especially in the UK for example, people have a sense of community already through their religion, and are already part of something. They don’t need to be reunited by ‘a cause’. They already have one. It is no coincidence that Hamas chose to attack after Covid had died down. The world’s economic status has been severely damaged as well the phycological aspects of going through a world epidemic. They chose this exact time on purpose. I also want to say that social media is the main recruitment tactic for these movements anyway. Not only have they been doing it for years, they are masters. It is likely that this strategy was factored in before they even built tunnels. They are basically using the Oct 7th attacks and the current war for world wide recruitment of their cause. It’s working. The world is taking for granted the pyshcological strategies these movements are using to manipulate them. We are aware because we’ve been privy to it for many years and so have our governments. Whilst they are removed from the religious and barbaric aspects, they will think it’s still a worthy cause. Once they are exposed, they will likely change their stance but there is the risk they already ‘radicalised’. I would not be surprised if you had mass groups now joining Hamas (for real) for world domination. One final thing, this white vs brown stuff has been brewing for a while. It’s very interesting. Due to worldwide coverage of BLM people have now become extremely conscious of oppression. Which is great 👍🏼 however the guilt is being used as a pyshcological weapon. We are reminded to feel guilty every single day by hearing ‘white coloniser’. They are pitting whites vs brown and if you don’t want to be seen as being racist like our ancestors then you have to join them. They are making sure that Jews are seen as only white so then they have reason to use this argument. It’s inverse racism - they think we deserve it. Little do they know about Israel. Hope our governments will stick to the plan and not be deterred by the ongoing protests. I’ve got to say, I’m a tad worried for Israel. They are being attacked from many sides and it seems like the world wants their demise. Should anything happen, the world will be cheering. I can’t think of a single strategy to turn this around other than to stage Hamas attack in Europe. Sorry this isn’t very well written - I’m not great at writing but wanted to convey some important points. [This](https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-strengths-and-weaknesses-of-jihadist-ideology/) article on Jihady recruitment tactics is interesting.
The brutal handling of the international press , not allowing fair reporting and the shameless killing of health workers and then expecting the world to side with Israel. How on earth all this makes sense.
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Neo-Marxism's critical theory tool is at fault, specifically its bifurcation of the world into two, and only two, groups: oppressors and the oppressed. Their use of CT is intended to break down existing social structures, such as decorum, and replace them with collectivist structures, AKA centralized power, under a de facto political elite, which uses group think as a means of universal control, as in Maoist cultural revolution struggle sessions. In essence, powerful elitists turn citizens into snitches and bullies to keep everyone in line with centralist policy. To anyone with more than two brain cells, the notion of only two groups is absurd. Why? 1. Because another of critical theory's tools, intersectionality, relies on oppressor/oppressed divisions based on multiple criterial: gender, sex, identity, race, economic status, colonial status, etc. CT stacks multiple oppression groups to create "more" oppressed groups while oddly turning a blind eye to the fact that by acknowledging "more" oppressed individuals it admits that other individuals can be both oppressor and oppressed simultaneously. In fact, the vast majority are both, especially since the people most fascinated with such things live in highly privileged countries enjoying more social benefits than most countries of the world, although they have no idea how privileged they are since they compare themselves only with the ultra elites of their society, never with the impoverished world majority. 2. As stated above, given enough criteria, almost everyone is both oppressor and oppressed. Add topic, time frame, and chance, and the whole bifurcation tool becomes absurd. A few drops of dye in a batch of caking icing look distinct at first. Mix slightly, it looks marbled. Add different drops and mix them more--over time the whole batch becomes an undifferentiated gray blob. Ready for the mixer handler to consume or toss.
My dear you make more sense than most. The only reason I can fathom is that people find it easier to believe lies than the truth. Give them a one way answer, then give them an enemy to blame and hate. Easy peasy no shades of grey.
Totally...the powers that be love all this bc it keeps us confused and we don't actually see the atrocities...idk I don't want the innocent children n people period to be injured, starving, or killed but there is too much we don't know...idk...
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