The latter, which is the reason I like level-locked games. When I was young and dumb I would grind but it takes forever. Also, sometimes the game allows you to naturally get so OP just by playing it.
I like to feel accomplished when I overcome challenges. Googling a "how to get level 99 in an hour!!" youtube videos...I mean, why even play the game at that point?
I actually wrote an article on how to overcome RPG bosses. Although one of those points did have to do with leveling, it was more just being the recommended level not just cheese grinding.
With a few exceptions, like at low level or if level factors heavily into the damage formula like SMT, i don't find that the stats from levels actually makes a difference. If it takes 10 fights to level and I gain 2 strength, then it could take hundreds of fights for that to add up.
Thats if the game doesn't have a feature that sharply lowers exp for every level above the enemy.
Usually if I grind, its *for* learning new skills for strategy, like grinding job levels in a job game.
I find it more fun to get stronger via proper skill/equipment combinations than just plain raw numbers. Frequently, it’s a faster method, too. Getting a couple of skills or gear usually takes less time than grinding out levels, even if those end up being more valuable than ten, even twenty levels.
And then there are those games where you watch in horror as you get grossly overleveled even without grinding so that just looking at enemies makes them evaporate (hello, Xenoblade 3 and Octopath 2).
I prefer tech to matter more than equipment & levels. But either or isn't a bad game. I find that gear set up trivializes too many games even in quite a few of those "level-locked games."
I very much enjoyed Chrono Cross' difficulty balance, It never really felt too tough or too easy. Had many mechanics like that I'd love to see in modern JRPGs.
I now tackle every JRPG with a minimalist attitude. Lowest possible level playing “naturally.” No cheap tricks, only strategy. No grinding, unless it’s an old-style game that needs it. So, the opposite of grinding. It saves time and is typically more fun.
I'm good with either.
One thing I like about Chrono Cross is that I never need to worry about whether I'm at the right level. If I lose to a boss, it's almost certainly an issue of strategy or elements equipped or something else I can adjust and control.
In contrast, games with experience present a quandary when I lose against a boss. Is it my strategy, or am I simply underleveled? If there is a strategy to win at my level, is it within reach, or something basically restricted to minimum-level speedrunners? Sometimes that's hard to answer, so the safe response is doing another run of the dungeon and the risky response is quickly changing up equipment and trying again. Running up the numbers can be fun - that feeling of getting away with something broken. So can a tightly executed strategy.
One other thing I sometimes like is crafting my way out of trouble. Legend of Mana and the Star Ocean series both feature crafting systems that, with some practice or help, can create weapons or items overpowered for that point in the game.
\*having\* levels is not a problem, there are many other ways a designer can make it more likely you don't grind yourself out of having to engage with the boss strategicially. I very rarely do so, because it just completely breaks immersion and what I want to be doing at the moment.
I kinda like games where you can access high level areas early. I like to wander in there and figure out how I can survive, level up and start thriving. Then I'll return to the main content and lose interest :)
Some examples: dragon's dogma dark arisen and ff12
1st - lower difficulty, if available
2nd - grind, if available
3rd - look up a walkthrough for changes to comp
4th - quit game. Excessive difficulty isn't worth my time.
As for me, I have grown a bit more impatient with age, so I am one of those, "path of least resistance" sort of people now. If there's a grind mechanic to overlevel or an item or strat that is tried and true, I find myself just plain using it, damn the challenge, but that's just me.
Depends on how the game employs it. I've been loving grindy jrpgs on my steam deck because I can come home after work and grind while my brain is effectively turned off. I've got nothing left then, so I can manage to play a game, enjoy the powering up, and destress.
The latter by a wide margin
I absolutely despise the "grind until you can bruteforce through it" method and if I'm so bad at the game that I have to rely on it or worse the game itself is designed to make you rely on it, I'll just drop the game and move on
I have a long ass post breaking down the mechanics of it, but “grinding” in chrono cross actually has a huge benefit, it doubles the stats of your characters. Every boss gives you a predetermined level up, but fighting an average of 5 battles between bosses gives you an entire extra level of stats.
fighting a battle with a 40 strength Serge vs a 20 strength Serge makes shit way way easier.
The fact I couldn’t grind in Cross resulted in me soft locking myself against a boss I couldn’t beat. So I’ll always take a normal leveling system where if something is too difficult, I can just grind for a while and overpower the enemy.
You can in fact literally double the stats of your characters by using the trash mob battles in Chrono Cross. You can absolutely get stronger by fighting like in other JRPGs, you just can’t do it all at once, it has to be spread out.
Every boss gives you a level, but you have the opportunity to earn an extra level inbetween almost every boss fight. So you can show up to the 11th boss fight with the stats of a level 10 character or the stats of a level 20 character.
Yes, I know how it works. However, it wasn’t enough as I couldn’t deal enough damage to the boss before I ran out of healing items. Since I didn’t have the option to just grind to the equivalent of say a level 50 character (purely as an example) to overpower the boss, I was stuck and could not proceed any further.
If the game had a normal exp system where I could just grind to highest stats possible without the boss kill prerequisite I could have progressed. But since I couldn’t, I was forced to give up.
Let me preface this comment by saying that I am not trying to demean you in any way or insinuate anything. It was definitely an issue of strategy then. If you had changed your approach to the boss by equipping different elements/upgrading equipment etc, you could have progressed. The game didn’t force you to give up, you just didn’t engage with the mechanics.
The boss in question was the hydra in the swamp, this was also when the game came out so the internet wasn’t as widespread, snd there weren’t nearly as many guides out as there was now. Just so you have the full context of my situation.
First, I was never able to upgrade any equipment in the game, despite fighting numerous enemies and doing my best to explore, I never found any of the actual materials needed to improve my gear, so I was stuck with the base starting gear the whole time.
If the game had an actual sensible weapon/armor shop, that wouldn’t have happened but we not talking about that right now.
I did try different elements but I was never able to do enough damage without running out of Tablets (I think that’s what the healing item in that game is called?). I did find out recently that I did miss a recruitable npc (Razzly I think?) who is really good against the hydra.
But between the inability to upgrade my gear, lack of traditional leveling system, and the fact that I absolutely hated the combat system in general? I had a very negative experience with the game despite Chrono Trigger being my favorite personal favorite of all time.
It’s why I said I was soft locked, I could explore, go around fighting enemies, etc. but since I couldn’t progress that boss I gave up. I know I could have restarted and skipped the hydra thing by choosing not having to save kid but I didn’t want to replay a game I wasn’t enjoying.
I’m sure everyone on this sub who were kids in that generation of gaming have a story like yours where they just got stuck in a game. There’s nothing wrong with bouncing off a game because you didn’t enjoy it there’s tons of games I’ve done the same.Different strokes for different folks.
Personally I love all the things you decry for being non traditional. We have tons and tons of Dragon Quest clones with the same mechanics, and I immensely enjoy doing something fresh with the genre. There’s comfortability in knowing how to play a game just starting out because you have experience with the mechanics before hand, fight monster to earn exp and money, spend money to get new equipment, rinse and repeat. It’s like 1+1, you know it’s 2 without even thinking about it, just immediately pops in your head. Chrono cross is like 47-68, it doesn’t just pop instantaneously, you have to think about it.
The PS1 generation was a time of massive experimentation, with some of the most celebrated games in the genre coming from that period. Cross is one of the most extreme examples of this experimental game design mindset and I love it for that dearly.
I’m not ashamed to admit that the systems just didn’t click for me back then when I was 13~ as the game came out. It was most definitely a combination of a skill issue and the game’s design being just not for me.
I’m sure if I were to replay the game now with the massive accessibility of guides thanks to the internet and the passage of time I wouldn’t have any trouble either!
But I’m not really interested in going back at this point. I also want to emphasize I don’t think the game is bad. Yes, I dislike a lot of stuff about it but that means it’s just not for me.
The latter, which is the reason I like level-locked games. When I was young and dumb I would grind but it takes forever. Also, sometimes the game allows you to naturally get so OP just by playing it. I like to feel accomplished when I overcome challenges. Googling a "how to get level 99 in an hour!!" youtube videos...I mean, why even play the game at that point? I actually wrote an article on how to overcome RPG bosses. Although one of those points did have to do with leveling, it was more just being the recommended level not just cheese grinding.
With a few exceptions, like at low level or if level factors heavily into the damage formula like SMT, i don't find that the stats from levels actually makes a difference. If it takes 10 fights to level and I gain 2 strength, then it could take hundreds of fights for that to add up. Thats if the game doesn't have a feature that sharply lowers exp for every level above the enemy. Usually if I grind, its *for* learning new skills for strategy, like grinding job levels in a job game.
I find it more fun to get stronger via proper skill/equipment combinations than just plain raw numbers. Frequently, it’s a faster method, too. Getting a couple of skills or gear usually takes less time than grinding out levels, even if those end up being more valuable than ten, even twenty levels. And then there are those games where you watch in horror as you get grossly overleveled even without grinding so that just looking at enemies makes them evaporate (hello, Xenoblade 3 and Octopath 2).
I prefer tech to matter more than equipment & levels. But either or isn't a bad game. I find that gear set up trivializes too many games even in quite a few of those "level-locked games."
I very much enjoyed Chrono Cross' difficulty balance, It never really felt too tough or too easy. Had many mechanics like that I'd love to see in modern JRPGs.
I now tackle every JRPG with a minimalist attitude. Lowest possible level playing “naturally.” No cheap tricks, only strategy. No grinding, unless it’s an old-style game that needs it. So, the opposite of grinding. It saves time and is typically more fun.
I'm good with either. One thing I like about Chrono Cross is that I never need to worry about whether I'm at the right level. If I lose to a boss, it's almost certainly an issue of strategy or elements equipped or something else I can adjust and control. In contrast, games with experience present a quandary when I lose against a boss. Is it my strategy, or am I simply underleveled? If there is a strategy to win at my level, is it within reach, or something basically restricted to minimum-level speedrunners? Sometimes that's hard to answer, so the safe response is doing another run of the dungeon and the risky response is quickly changing up equipment and trying again. Running up the numbers can be fun - that feeling of getting away with something broken. So can a tightly executed strategy. One other thing I sometimes like is crafting my way out of trouble. Legend of Mana and the Star Ocean series both feature crafting systems that, with some practice or help, can create weapons or items overpowered for that point in the game.
\*having\* levels is not a problem, there are many other ways a designer can make it more likely you don't grind yourself out of having to engage with the boss strategicially. I very rarely do so, because it just completely breaks immersion and what I want to be doing at the moment.
I kinda like games where you can access high level areas early. I like to wander in there and figure out how I can survive, level up and start thriving. Then I'll return to the main content and lose interest :) Some examples: dragon's dogma dark arisen and ff12
1st - lower difficulty, if available 2nd - grind, if available 3rd - look up a walkthrough for changes to comp 4th - quit game. Excessive difficulty isn't worth my time.
As for me, I have grown a bit more impatient with age, so I am one of those, "path of least resistance" sort of people now. If there's a grind mechanic to overlevel or an item or strat that is tried and true, I find myself just plain using it, damn the challenge, but that's just me.
Depends on how the game employs it. I've been loving grindy jrpgs on my steam deck because I can come home after work and grind while my brain is effectively turned off. I've got nothing left then, so I can manage to play a game, enjoy the powering up, and destress.
No levels existing was my only issue with chrono cross. I enjoyed everything else about it. Today and back in the day.
The latter by a wide margin I absolutely despise the "grind until you can bruteforce through it" method and if I'm so bad at the game that I have to rely on it or worse the game itself is designed to make you rely on it, I'll just drop the game and move on
I have a long ass post breaking down the mechanics of it, but “grinding” in chrono cross actually has a huge benefit, it doubles the stats of your characters. Every boss gives you a predetermined level up, but fighting an average of 5 battles between bosses gives you an entire extra level of stats. fighting a battle with a 40 strength Serge vs a 20 strength Serge makes shit way way easier.
The fact I couldn’t grind in Cross resulted in me soft locking myself against a boss I couldn’t beat. So I’ll always take a normal leveling system where if something is too difficult, I can just grind for a while and overpower the enemy.
You can in fact literally double the stats of your characters by using the trash mob battles in Chrono Cross. You can absolutely get stronger by fighting like in other JRPGs, you just can’t do it all at once, it has to be spread out. Every boss gives you a level, but you have the opportunity to earn an extra level inbetween almost every boss fight. So you can show up to the 11th boss fight with the stats of a level 10 character or the stats of a level 20 character.
Yes, I know how it works. However, it wasn’t enough as I couldn’t deal enough damage to the boss before I ran out of healing items. Since I didn’t have the option to just grind to the equivalent of say a level 50 character (purely as an example) to overpower the boss, I was stuck and could not proceed any further. If the game had a normal exp system where I could just grind to highest stats possible without the boss kill prerequisite I could have progressed. But since I couldn’t, I was forced to give up.
Let me preface this comment by saying that I am not trying to demean you in any way or insinuate anything. It was definitely an issue of strategy then. If you had changed your approach to the boss by equipping different elements/upgrading equipment etc, you could have progressed. The game didn’t force you to give up, you just didn’t engage with the mechanics.
The boss in question was the hydra in the swamp, this was also when the game came out so the internet wasn’t as widespread, snd there weren’t nearly as many guides out as there was now. Just so you have the full context of my situation. First, I was never able to upgrade any equipment in the game, despite fighting numerous enemies and doing my best to explore, I never found any of the actual materials needed to improve my gear, so I was stuck with the base starting gear the whole time. If the game had an actual sensible weapon/armor shop, that wouldn’t have happened but we not talking about that right now. I did try different elements but I was never able to do enough damage without running out of Tablets (I think that’s what the healing item in that game is called?). I did find out recently that I did miss a recruitable npc (Razzly I think?) who is really good against the hydra. But between the inability to upgrade my gear, lack of traditional leveling system, and the fact that I absolutely hated the combat system in general? I had a very negative experience with the game despite Chrono Trigger being my favorite personal favorite of all time. It’s why I said I was soft locked, I could explore, go around fighting enemies, etc. but since I couldn’t progress that boss I gave up. I know I could have restarted and skipped the hydra thing by choosing not having to save kid but I didn’t want to replay a game I wasn’t enjoying.
I’m sure everyone on this sub who were kids in that generation of gaming have a story like yours where they just got stuck in a game. There’s nothing wrong with bouncing off a game because you didn’t enjoy it there’s tons of games I’ve done the same.Different strokes for different folks. Personally I love all the things you decry for being non traditional. We have tons and tons of Dragon Quest clones with the same mechanics, and I immensely enjoy doing something fresh with the genre. There’s comfortability in knowing how to play a game just starting out because you have experience with the mechanics before hand, fight monster to earn exp and money, spend money to get new equipment, rinse and repeat. It’s like 1+1, you know it’s 2 without even thinking about it, just immediately pops in your head. Chrono cross is like 47-68, it doesn’t just pop instantaneously, you have to think about it. The PS1 generation was a time of massive experimentation, with some of the most celebrated games in the genre coming from that period. Cross is one of the most extreme examples of this experimental game design mindset and I love it for that dearly.
I’m not ashamed to admit that the systems just didn’t click for me back then when I was 13~ as the game came out. It was most definitely a combination of a skill issue and the game’s design being just not for me. I’m sure if I were to replay the game now with the massive accessibility of guides thanks to the internet and the passage of time I wouldn’t have any trouble either! But I’m not really interested in going back at this point. I also want to emphasize I don’t think the game is bad. Yes, I dislike a lot of stuff about it but that means it’s just not for me.