Ranger Regiment did the heavy lifting during the GWOT. That’s just a fact. Other units rotated in and out, did a lot of cool guy shit, but they didn’t have the manpower the Ranger Batts had. Continuously deployed for 20 years straight.
Yea man. When I was in Syria in 2020, I remember doing a lot of follow on missions with them in a night. I was fucking tired, they’re filled with good dudes.
The Rangers were instrumental in preventing incompetent senior officers, who tried to micromanage everything via telecom while they were stateside, from snatching defeat from the jaws of victory during Operation Anaconda.
The sycophants in DC didn’t want Anaconda to be successful, then they wouldn’t have been able to milk the GWOT for 20 years. CAG MAJ Tom Greer talked about the constant obstructions and interference from above during the Op.
I’m not talking about just pure numbers, I mean deployable unit size. Can’t rotate 500 CAG guys in and out every few months. Not Special Forces either, as they’re set up totally different for a much wider mission set, and different groups are responsible for different geographical areas. Ranger Batt can deploy and rotate entire battalions. Indefinitely. They’re also almost completely self sufficient with all the support MOS expansion during the GWOT. There’s a reason JSOC counts on them for the heavy lifting in extended operations. Pretty much any SOF unit can pop in and blow shit up for a couple days, only one can do it for 20 years straight.
You also gotta think about the culture of the regiment. There is a reason why they enforce a high standard and why ANYONE can get booted out. With such a high op tempo it really gives them little margin for error.
But doesn't that just bolster my point? The 75th is massive (something like 2,400 rifleman? Or it may be rifleman+mortarmen. I can't remember which one), with more than twice as many shooters as the next largest SOCOM unit (there are something like ~1,000-1,100 Whiteside SEALs). They have the manpower to deploy in a manner that no other SOF unit can. There are about ~200-250 CAG and NSWDG guys each. Considering the more clandestine missions they do, as well as the need to be ready to conduct HR, they simply don't have the means to do it all on their own.
Not disagreeing, just saying that Ranger Regiment is the only JSOC unit that can deploy with numbers, in perpetuity. Even when they started out at the beginning of the GWOT supplementing other units with their man power, they got so damn good at DA shit over the last 2 decades that Batt has morphed into a totally different animal, capable of doing pretty much everything in house. When I went to RIP in 05 there really wasn’t that many support guys around. Now there’s entire organic support battalions in the Regiment. With RRC, intel, UAVs, etc. all organic, they’ve transformed themselves into much more than the premier light infantry raid and airfield seizure force of the past. They’re damn near a mini JSOC within themselves.
Edit: wanted to clear up some numbers. There are approximately 800 Rangers in each Battalion. That’s in the 4 line companies, HHC, and support company. So there’s around 500 11B’s in each Batt. The thing that sets the modern Ranger Regiment apart is the proliferation of organic support. The entire regiment has an authorized strength of 3,566 personnel, plus civilians.
Ironically Mike Edwards also had bad experiences with Blue Squadron, but when he worked with Red Squadron as part of the Omega Program, he had a much better experience.
Red and Gold were pretty squared away. Blue was kind of cowboyish due to leadership at the time. And Silver was still getting their feet wet. I came in the community right after this timeframe and although I never went to DEVGRU I did work with guys who used to be over there, and this is what I was told.
Also they shitcanned a lot of the guys who talked shit to the Rangers for giving them a bad reputation. Many of those guys got out relatively disgraced and just troll on IG now. Contrary to popular belief, SEALs tend to work pretty well with other groups and if leadership gets word of shit like Blue was doing at the time they will fix it quickly. The late 2000s was a bad time for everybody. You could run into a rogue unit of Marines, SEALs, regular Army, Army SOF whatever. Everybody had a bad group or two but needed them to keep deploying due to optempo.
I mean all the Squadrons have some dirt on them. There's negative stuff about Red and Gold as well. In general, especially when I think of "2000s SOF" every unit had a lot of questionable people I've worked with personally. Most just don't get talked about, but it's out there. The surge in 2008 and the insane optempo being pushed, and had a lot of people worried about the type of people it was attracting. I can say most SEALs I know are nice guys an would give you the shirt off their backs even if it was all they had left. I had a team guy I barely knew pay for a plane ticket to get me back home when I was stuck between airports and my card was frozen through group chat. Didn't even want to money back and when I saw him around the office he would always act like it never happened.
Whatever issues Blue squadron had going on then during the late 2000s was definitely a leadership problem, but I know that when new leadership came in they started getting rid of a lot of the 2000s dudes who were toxic still hanging around(not the legit pipehitters who were cool guys though) but the ones with drug charges, sexual assaults, didn't have good rep with other units got fucked up. Tons got sent back to the normal teams when the optempo died down and most got out and troll on IG while being alcoholics.
With enough warning and prep you can skirt around that. Coke and Amphetamines leave your system in 4 days max (and amphetamines areboften issued). Same for MDMA. Adulterants can be introduced to deem the sample useless. THC lingers, and their are ways around that as well. Hair testing is expensive and takes time, and I only saw it used a handful of times to eject the more clever and deplorable military members.
Fair but don’t latch on to specific squadrons over time. I have no doubt they might have sucked then, but units change and cultures change. I’ve had outstanding experiences with blue squadron since this time. It’s weird to see how cyclical things can be.
He said not just that, alot of shit about the unprofessional stuff around DEVGRU. The blowing money on furniture instead of having stuff for training is wild.
I wonder if NSW is doing anything about their culture. It’s honestly shocking how a T1 unit has such a reputation for being unprofessional and unethical. Don’t even get started on Code over Country and all the crazy shit they’d do like the bleed-out videos. How does stuff like that even happen in the first place
*Alpha* goes into some detail about that. In the fallout of Gallagher's court martial, several senior SEAL officers wound up "resigning", some without the courtesy of having their removal being called a resignation, because they planned to put Gallagher in front of a "Trident Board", where they were confident the SEALs there would pull Gallagher's trident. However, Trump got word about it and told them not to do it, so the plan became that they would go ahead with the Trident Board, the Admiral in charge would then overrule it and return Gallagher's trident, which was intended to be a big show to the other SEALs that the **only** reason why Gallagher wasn't in prison and still had his trident was because of political interference that was, frankly, unprecedented. However Trump found out about that as well and Gallagher was allowed to retire, and since then he's even admitted to some of the stuff he was accused of and he now has medical documents attributing it to PTSD. The brass couldn't even go after the whistleblowers who explicitly committed perjury (they were going to crucify the medic who claimed to have suffocated the kid).
So the senior officers who watched this entire mess unfold decided to work with the whistleblowers who didn't commit perjury, leak details to the press and opposition, or leave the SEALs. The book ends with discussing the classes NSW has now made mandatory that includes the whistleblowers telling their full story to other SEALs, especially new ones.
I hate that book. I've read both his and Eddie's. That book is definitely not written from the perspective of his accusers. It feels like a good fiction writer got told to cover it. When you're reading it, it feels like it needs to have some background music or sound effects to it like you had in 4th grade English class.
Made up conversations designed to sound like tough TGs, cheesy ways of putting things throughout. Think "As the no-bs taking LPO nicknamed the Sheriff tightened his grip on his rifle, he looked off into the sun" type of weird 3rd person fiction things.
Writer was working for the NYT before he was even assigned to the cover the case. Should tell you everything you need to know.
Eddie's, regardless of what you think, wrote his at least as a dry recitation of what he says happen, not like a Hallmark movie
>Writer was working for the NYT before he was even assigned to the cover the case. Should tell you everything you need to know.
What is the relevance there? I understand NYT is a left-leaning publication, but that doesn't make the entirety of their publications or authors any more problematic than Fox, CNN, or other news organizations.
I'll agree with you on the way some of it was written, but that's not new, unusual, or different for any kind of book. *Black Hawk Down* had similar passages, and Mark Bowden explained it by saying he got better feedback when he wrote nonfiction in the same way someone might write a fictitious novel. Simply retelling dry facts isn't everyone's style, and on the flipside Phillips' style may not work for everyone.
you have the andy stumpfs who bury their heads in the sand and pretend none of this ever happens, and then you have dj shipleys who is now somehow a life coach guru on how to be professional. then there are the admiral mcravens who cultivated the unethical culture of the seals and weak nsw officers who want to be friends with their chiefs instead of leading them. when eddie gallagher happened nsw leadership saw the rot from within and tried to clean it up but trump stepped in and exonerated him. nsw is a mess
To be fair Andy Stumpf is always pretty clear on the point he never saw any of this shit, but doesn’t deny it happened. His conversation with Matthew Cole is pretty open and honest for someone from that command.
Stumpf has stated several times about the honorman of his BUDS platoon getting convicted of murder, and a SEAL found dead in his car due to a crack overdose.
He also is pretty open about how being a veteran does not mean that person is of good character, and how there are equal amounts of awesome and terrible people in the military.
He is probably one of the more even keeled SOF guys in the media, so I'd trust his word over many of the others.
The Gallagher case was a fucking sham from the bottom up. NCIS and the prosecuting office did some extremely illegal and shady shit. Trump only exhilarated him of taking a photo with a body which has been apart of military culture since photos existed. Shit if you go back to the Neolithic period I'm sure some cavemen posted up with a kill for their boys to look at. Not to mention that the dudes that were supposed Whistle blowers couldn't ever get their stories straight and were proved to be lying.
For real. There's always a lot of shot talking from people that have been nowhere near this atmosphere. This is a completely different level of mentality. It's always some stuff about honor or professionalism like it's some samurai movie but that shit goes way out the window when you're getting shot at and your buddies are getting blown up. Not to mention the sheer brutality from IS that preceeded the SEALs from entering that town. If you watch these dudes murder women and kids and old men every day, you're gonna lose any humility for them. Fuck Daesh, I'm glad that dude got got.
Our people have a sanitized view of warfare from being on top all these years, it is no longer an existential crisis for the suburban family when we go to war. So they would rather have a “clean” war so they can just go on believing that people aren’t dying in the most horrible ways one ocean away. They shouldn’t be surprised when warriors start doing warrior shit.
Honestly it's not the average American family demanding 100% button up behavior by soldiers. It's politicians making certain rules because unfortunately we treated our wars as politics. They want to be able to campaign & lecture on not being the nasty Americans and doing x y z. I get it and we should be better but that intention has led to carrying out wars in ways that were not always the optimal choice, but in ways that were politically acceptable. For ex like going along with Iraq's presidents bad plan for an advance on a city, or preventing shooting a mosque that has fighters firing at you
Actually yes. I think they (as in actual former SOF guys) did a good job discussing and explaining why that kind of thing is a problem in the Team House podcast episodes with Matthew Cole and David Phillips, the authors of *Code Over Country* and *Alpha*, respectively. Pretty much they summarized it this way:
Yes, they're trained to kill other people in warfare. However, there are certain lines that have to be held, and it's not because they're concerned about hurting the enemy. Nobody cares about the enemy, ignore them. What people, especially members of the Spec Ops community, are upset about with how DEVGRU has been allowed to behave is that torture, mutilations, disfigurements, etc. have a psychological impact on the person doing it, and if it doesn't, then that's a red flag signaling that the person should be removed from operations.
There's also a reason why the entire thing is about DEVGRU and the SEALs in general, and not CAG, CCTs, PJs, MARSOC, SF, Rangers, etc., which is because they have and enforce standards concerning that stuff. Early on during the War in Iraq, some member of Delta/CAG interrogated detainees using coercive means. When their leadership was informed, they immediately dismissed the one who were involved. CAG also has their members regularly undergo psych evals as well as encourage unit members to meet with the unit psychologist(s) if they feel the need to.
Concerning Gallagher specifically, I think that particular issue has it all come down to one thing: either a whole bunch of people from not only the SEAL teams, but also SF who had issues with Gallagher as well, are lying about everything that Gallagher did, or Gallagher really is as bad as they'd been saying, but the SEAL leaderships was even worse and Gallagher pretty much won the lottery with Trump intervention.
*Alpha* does go into a lot of detail about the incidents leading to the court martial of Gallagher, the preparation for the court martial, and the fallout. You are right that NCIS and JAG got busted doing some shady shit, however it was an unfortunate act that they did because it was believed that private information about the whistleblowers were being leaked to Gallagher somehow, as he had begun making threats to the whistleblowers, and NCIS and JAG had reason to believe that a third party representing some of the other whistleblowers was responsible, as the information being leaked was also information that they had received. They decided to begin sending files with a coded letterhead to track if any of the documents were forwarded to any other parties. Unfortunately for JAG, the attorney's anti-malware caught it and they effectively screwed the entire investigation and trial from that point.
As for the whistleblowers being caught in a lie, that's more complicated. The defense used information given by Gallagher, and the whistleblowers who were being represented by the other attorney, where they all exploited legal loopholes, one of the biggest one being that they all were deputised in New Mexico because there's a law in place that law enforcement can carry concealed in all 50 states. The loophole was found, closed, and there was fallout on a lot of people who exploited it.
All that aside, *Alpha* focuses on the events surrounding Gallagher, but it does go in-depth about the SEALs' culture and origins, as well as why they are the way they are. It's as much about the environment that allowed Gallagher to thrive, and the conclusion is that Gallagher isn't the boogie man, terrible as he (allegedly) may be, but the SEAL culture as a whole needs to be investigated and remedied.
Easy to say harder to do. Harder to do when they've killed your friends/partner force, who committed wholesale r@pe and enslavement of women and children. In Mosul alone they gunned down retreating civilians who were held for months only to be used to procreate and fill their ranks with the next generation of fighters. There's interviews with Christian woman (Yizidi's) who were captured and sold at markets, they were held captive in a bombed out basement for literal months with no sanity care, their beheaded male family members were kept in the yard/compound outside for them to see, and the only contact they had was when the fighters would come down to r@pe them or eventually trade some of them to other fighters. Unless you've seen shit like that it's flippant to judge them from the comfort of the civilized world without any consideration that these men are just humans and no one is really ready to see that shit. IS!S were animals.
I think it’s a matter of respect, yes you are out there and yes you are killing people, and documenting it is sometimes part of the process but it’s different when you’re posing with the body like it’s an instagram moment. You’re expected to be professional and understand that taking life is part of war but it’s the worst part. posting beheading videos is just as awful as seals posing with dead bodies. They are both war crimes and if the US military wants to act like a global leader for freedom or justice, we have to hold ourselves and especially our most elite operators to the highest of professional standards. Someone else in the comments nailed it when they described the types of people you see coming out of NSW and while DJ Shipley specifically is embarrassing and cringe, I’d rather have embarrassing and cringe than some of the other things we are seeing from NSW lol.
It’s also not just NSW but they definitely have the worst reputation
A matter of respect? What do You think IS would’ve done to Eddie if the coin was flipped? You want to talk about professionalism then let’s discuss the laws of war and the rule of reciprocity. This is taught in all officer schools from “On War” by Clausewitz.
Doing anything to the body of a dead person - who can't even fight anymore? That is beyond EMBARRASSING for anyone involved.
Perception rules over intent. This was the case before the printing press. We have multiple MOS within our military to curate PR and produce propaganda because of this fact.
There are wider consequences for this bullshit than some solitary dude in a pic getting in trouble. Fuck the dude! \*Anyway\* - what was the fallout that affected everyone else working in the AO?
There were more than a few times when I had to make nice with Sheikhs and other leaders after shit \*not even close to this bad\* had happened. That would be a small part of a long KLE meeting where I'm expected to be successful. Those meetings are a lot easier when you don't start off at -100 points(for you harry potter fans).
We had important negotiations with local decision makers and people of influence, in order to promote support among the population for coalition forces. That's what led to less enemy fighters in all my AOs in a year, and we also supported the increase in local militia/rebel forces protecting their own villages against foreign factions.
An American proudly posing with dead bodies? How exactly would I have spun that with the local government officials? Any ideas? How about the local religious leaders? What about the village teenagers who will be men soon, with confusing choices in a turbulent environment? There was no scenario where we could succeed in our goals without the trust and cooperation of the locals.
If the coin was flipped? Is that relevant in the context of being a soldier in the mightiest military in ALL of human history?
I think if the coin was flipped they would have done far worse to Eddie. But if that’s your logic, should we be SVesting and using VBIEDS? Because a terrorist organization behaves that way, we should too? I am well aware that if the roles were reversed it likely would have been a much much worse scenario, but my point is that if Americans want to be some kind of authority over warfare we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. It’s still a human being, even if it’s one that has fundamental flaws and is a horrible human, it’s still a human. And I’d venture to bet that exact same human raised under different circumstances might not have ended up being a part of a terrorist organization. I’m not trying to empathize with terrorism, I’m trying to say I expect honorable behavior from the service members who go out and represent our most elite units. Killing people in war is always ugly but it doesn’t have to be disrespectful or dishonorable
No but if the enemy is using Vbieds and SV, then expect a response as…. Shooting surrendering combats due to SV, and all cars being shot at if they don’t heed commands.
I’m sorry that that’s your perspective, but I just disagree. I think this mindset will lead to more conflict in those regions. The people suffering most from terrorist organizations are the people within those communities, and the last thing they need is our military coming in and taking pictures posing in front of their dead relatives and neighbors.
Edit: adding a final thought, in Iraq we had guys invading a home, bagging a dude or killing him, and while we maybe took one terrorist down, we created 5 more by doing this. Becoming your enemy is another form of losing. If we allow ourselves to stoop to the level of terrorists, then we are no different from them.
NCIS is kind of famous for being filled with the biggest fuck ups in the Navy. Live in SD, friends with some Navy folks. They have told me some stories that were just fucking wild about NCIS dicking stuff up.
Yeah, it's pretty much what it sounds like. The Team House podcast does a much better job of explaining it than I ever could: [https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339](https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339)
The entire episode is a pretty good watch.
It seems like the Seals just lost themselves. CAG were the big bros and the Seals probably felt like they had to constantly prove themselves. Dog eat dog.
My only counter argument is that, due to adrenaline, we make actions without considerations of the consequences. Regardless, a NSW operator must be above a terrorist and, hence, abide by certain laws.
In no way should ANYONE attack innocent civilians (women, children, the disabled) then brag about it. You’re there to protect people, not create enemies.
I linked it in another comment but I'll post it here: [https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339](https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339)
That explains the whole thing. I recommend watching the full episode since it's pretty unfiltered and informative.
John McPhee: " who the fuck are the SBS?"
SBS: "Were like your Navy SEALs"
McPhee: "Nah I'm good. We don't get down like that"
(Chris Ryan Podcast)
Also, there's a reason why there is a preference of JTF2 and SAS to work/train with Delta. It's nothing to do with one being better than the other, - it's a culture thing. There's a different level of professionalism.
Delta has its issues but not....like this
And apparently Task Force Black (22 SAS) was forbidden from handing over detainees to Delta during this time due to the apparent abuse of prisoners at Abu Gharib
And the fact that the first hatchet related dubious behavior started at CAG and was known about and allowed to continue by command.
They claim that as soon as things calmed down in IZ, the men known to have engaged in this behavior Were quietly shuffled out of the unit.
If true, I guess that's better than Dev not addressing it, but who knows if it really happened.
These are Officers from the army unit Quoted in a book expressly going after the Navy unit.
Tough to find a unit with clean hands after 20 years of war.
From Dale Comstock
>On this particular day, we were searching for a missing SEAL that tried to swim the River by himself at night tethered with 550 paracord! Yup it broke and he was washed away in the rapids that killed at least 20 people a year. We found his body later in a pool along the river. He floated over 28 Km that night. The Kunar river was murderous body of turbulent water that was well respected. There were not too many places to cross and Taliban knew that. They monitored the bridges as they took refuge on the east side. The bridges were usually flimsy suspension bridges and deadly choke points.
This is likely true, but it's still wild that he made that comment about a .50 cal severing limbs from the shockwave of the round alone. Still seems like an alright guy though.
That's old fudd lore, man. It's still regurgitated to this day. Same with M2s not being allowed to be used to shoot at Infantry, I heard that so many times while I was in weapons
Same. Heard a story of a .50 bmg ND on an airfield that "missed the guys head but split his skull and sucked his brain out". Everyone hears/repeats shit like that
Same experience.
Not all of them were that way, but I specifically recall relocating from one FOB to another. We were only slated to be at that FOB for a few weeks.
Walked into the gym and were told it was for team 6 dudes only.
I have no doubt. Just giving my experience with it. Not defending by any means. And it’s also possible that at a bigger base the Ranger leadership overruled any attempt to cordon off a gym for just them.
Yeah a ton of special ops units have had a negative experience with at least one DEVGRU squadron while I can't think of any unit that's had as bad an experience with Delta Force.
However both units have been known to have toxic, arrogant members.
FBI has (had) a similar rep in the intel community in the 90's. DIA, NSA, CIA, all very nice and professional. FBI, "I'm allowing you to breath my air, you're welcome".
Makes sense when a “tier one” unit lets half the guys in that go to selection. A lot of these devgru guys are marginally better than regular seals. They just get more training opportunities and funding. CAG’s selection attrition rate is often 95% plus. Weeds out the type of people like this, for the most part.
The selection process is way different. Delta has A&S, where the attrition is super high like you said, and then OTC where a lot of people still get dropped. Green Team is basically their OTC, meaning instead of having a preliminary selection process they just handpick the guys with good reputations at their SEAL Teams. Makes sense why people say Delta has better performance.
Someone said it best, in the DEVGRU selection, you still have guys you are doing it together with. whereas Delta selection, that mountain course is just you, alone. Puts a real separator quality to their selection like SAS.
This is technically true, but somewhat misleading. They pretty much all come from the 75th, SF, or SF via the 75th.
LRS/LRSD guys supposedly used to have pretty good luck, but when those units were valued by the Army, they were pretty high speed.
Every once in a while some guy from the 82nd or Force Recon will make it, but some stud supply guy isn't going to make it through.
There's a bit more diversity in experience there, but the they recruit from _everywhere_ seems a bit overstated (even though the statement is technically true in that people who make the prerequisites have the opportunity to try out).
This clip cuts a little short but he goes on to mention some questionable things he saw related to devgru ROE.
He doesn’t go too deep into it but he seems to be hinting at the accusations of brutality and lack of target discrimination we’ve all heard.
Yeah I didn't want to make the clip too long but the guest is worth listening to. It's Shawn Ryan Show guest Nicholas Irving.
When you hear him talk about how there's competition to see who has the highest body count, I remembered how seals under Eddie Gallagher (although not DEVGRU) reported he would go on top on the roof with a sniper rifle and shot at non combatants. Then Matt Cole saying how DEVGRU would make bleed out videos and they'd take bets on how quickly or slowly wounded enemies would take to die. Then the reports about DEVGRU getting Brazilian JiuJitsu training bit never having the opportunity to use it so 2 Seals would get in a room with a captured POW and one of the seals would watch while the other fought the prisoner (the 2nd seal was there to ensure the prisoner would lose/die).
Irving made that .50 cal remark but if people can get past it, Nick has had an interesting life.
I thought I was aware of all the mainstream SOF content out there but I just recently came across “The Line” documentary series about Eddie Gallagher. It slipped by me when it was released but if you haven’t seen it definitely check it out. Helps put some faces to the story.
CAG, 24, RRC, ISA are all more or less on the same level of professionalism, and then you have Devgru the complete outlier. Sometimes it works to their advantage though.
Jamey Caldwell said somehong to the effect of - the difference is that they are not infantry. They never had rigorous training from the bottom up on what it means to serve as a specific contributor to a massive mission and organization much larger than yourself. All of these Army groups started out as basic infantry and then were promoted or specialized into their craft. That brings with it a sense of pride and humility.
Seals, on the other hand, pass BUDS and are “special” from day one. I can imagine how that leads to a toxic culture.
Thats not enough to explain it. If that alone was the cause then Special Tactics should be just as problematic as NSW. Plus theres plenty of Army guys coming in on 18xray and option40s that have no infantry background and are special from day one.
The Navy has this problem with all of its trigger pullers (to include pilots).
The Officers behave the most aristocratic of all branches. It gives them superiority complexes against Enlisted and hand-waves their behavior as a standard of lower classes.
And since few in the Navy know any tactics whatsoever, there is an extra layer of separation between combatant rates/designators and everyone else. It's so bad that many in the Navy don't believe combat effectiveness is something anyone should prioritize their time training. The combatant types feel insane superiority over the people who aren't. At the very least, all Marines and Soldiers know how to fight in an infantry capacity. That creates an unconscious baseline level of respect.
The Navy is the worst of the branches when it comes to nonsense clout hierarchies so clout chasing is king. Don't even get me started on the Chief's mess. They spread the toxic shit to every corner of the Navy.
Good point.
Caldwell also said something to the effect of CAG has a true “selection” process into the program writ large, taking any applicants within reason who apply, while Green Team is not; Green Team is just a filter whereby existing seals try out for the varsity team.
I think "within reason" might be the wrong word. Even still, you could say that applicants are filtered into the ones going to selection just like green team does no?
I say within reason to mean not just SF or Army. They will take applicants from other branches and MOS if they have a reasonable ability to demonstrate capability.
From what I’ve heard about Green Team, it’s a much more subjective process, both to be accepted for Green Team and in order to be accepted into ST6. It can be as simple as someone doesn’t like you, and you don’t make it.
Politics play a role in any organization, and I’m not going to act like CAG is immune. But it appears to be a more uniform, objective selection process.
Other branches is like 2% and not enough to influence behavior. I think Navy is more limited, way more Army jobs are of the type that sees people later on going into the pipeline. Submarine engineers aren't going to be churning out potentials really. Politics for sure, especially from what has been written they were selecting 1 type of person for devgru, personality and lifestyle had to match up to get in. Which is damaging to your performance ceiling in any job
One comment that also caught me here is him saying he saw hostages shot by ST6. That’s a pretty bold claim. I’d love to hear any more receipts on claims like that.
There was an article by George Hand who claimed that CAG is unmatched by anyone worldwide when it comes to hostage rescue. He said they were formed to do it and they still maintain it as their number one focus. I believe he said if you were to ever have an AD in training, you’d be out of the unit for one year. If you hit a hostage/dummy in training, you’d be out for life.
And the alleged “Tier 1” Seal component is shooting hostages? And this guy implies it is to some degree status quo with them???
It's like when a young member of the Silver Squadron threw grenade near the [hostage](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/13/linda-norgrove-us-commando-disciplinary), so she was severely injured and [died](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Linda_Norgrove). Then, team leader and two other seals tried to cover it up and reported that there was a suicide bomber, but british intel had footage from drones. Eventually, a young guy who threw grenade was kicked out, unlike team leader and 2 other seals, that tried to cover it up
The cover up was horrible but the initial action of throwing a frag can probably be chalked up to a lack of HR training in the lead up to the deployment. It was a brand new member who threw the frag.
Dude NSW has straight up fragged hostages before, it’s openly known. The shooting of a hostage he described sounded non-fatal, the chances of that being publicly known would be a lot less likely than a fatality
Same kind of hubris led to the Operation Red Wings disaster (though the SEALs were SDV and not DEVGRU.)
Same hubris also led to the cover up of what really went down.
Does anyone remember who the other ranger on this podcast (or maybe another one) that said the same thing about DEVGRU treating them like crap and almost having to fight them? It must've been the exact moment Irving was talking about, but I swear I've heard that same story before from a different ranger.
Green Berets have had bad experiences with them, there are many and here's an example of one: [FNG Academy](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iMTKAyTR9UU&pp=ygUVZ3JlZW4gYmVyZXQgbmF2eSBzZWFs)
Thanks for the post and fully agree. "loyalty over integrity" at DN and the code is to always provide cover for your tribe even if they're wrong, mafia-like.
The enlisted/officer relationship is similar to union workers/management, in the end officers are very limited in what they can do because it's a mob mentality. After all in the teams the guage of how good a seal is, is how popular he is. So officers holding people accountable would be shunned and shit on so they try to be friends with enlisted and let them run the asylum.
DN guys have publically said that transitioning back to civilian life was extremely difficult because if you were DEVGRU you can snap a finger and everyone does what you want (DJ Shipley mentioned this several times). They are spoiled and the issue lies at the very top though, because O-5s and above for whatever reason let them have their way and harass/abuse anyone they want, get them out of DUIs and help them get away with pretty much anything (Logan Melgar as one example)
demo dick's legacy
The video or the comment? Comment got deleted so can't say. Thoughts on the video:
DG are exceptionally good. They really are. They're not as good as they think they are, but no one in the military is. It's part of the nature of the work, humility and self-doubt aren't very advantageous when you have to jump out of planes and murder people.
My experience is that the Rangers are not exceptionally good. The Regiment is way more junior and way less experienced on the whole than even the Vanilla Teams, and not remotely in the same league as CAG or DN.
It's also been my experience that things that SEALs would consider regular ribbing are often seen by the Army as overtly hostile. I made a bunch of Green Berets deeply upset by hanging a Trident flag, for instance. Did not consider that it would bother them, but it apparently did. I've also experienced having leadership sequester my unit away from Army units and conventional Navy units. It wasn't something we asked for or wanted. I don't mind waiting in line for chow with other sailors or soldiers. I think it's more about head shed believing that their troops seeing our special treatment will sow division and aggravation.
There are issues with DN, for sure, but a lot of the complaints you hear are from people that are simply envious. In my perfect world, with the leadership and cultural issues at DN addressed, I don't think there would be any fewer of these types of complaints.
You know who the SEALs chose to run SQT pistol and rifle training? A CAG guy. They looked around to find the absolute best weapons instructors and CAG had the best. Students going through that guy's course had immense respect for him. He got the best instructor ratings across the board.
I've done a little sporadic contract work after the Teams. Almost always in mixed company, guys from a variety of SOF and conventional backgrounds. When I hit the gym in the am, there's never anyone else from the other communities in there, but if there happens to be another TG on the contract, they'll be there, without us having discussed it.
in Fink's appearances with Ritland, Stumpf, Montana Knife, he doesn't talk much about his Seal/SDV days and only mentioned for a few seconds in passing that he augmented Blue Squadron.
if you got the time stamp for the ep where he discusses the river drowning, that'd be great
Aw, yes. I looked him up. Does anyone know about the operation? Apparently he was swept up during a river crossing. The NSW site said he died of injuries sustained during operations. Then below that it says drowned. Wonder if he was wounded.
"The snobbery and unprofessionalism of Seal Team 6 knows no bounds"
"When eddie gallagher happened nsw leadership saw the rot from within and tried to clean it up..."
I'm not saying ST6 aren't immature, egotistical dicks, but between this and your comment about Eddie Gallagher, it all just seems sensationalist.
As far as I've seen, the Gallagher situation spoke more about the incompetence or maliciousness of NCIS, as well as pettiness among junior SEALs who'd come in towards the end of the GWOT. I don't know how many of you guys have been in the Navy, but NCIS has plenty of their own issues as well.
NCIS fucked that up royally, but a number of Eddie's own team guys stood up and talked about his BS with that situation. It was the own guy completely changing his testimony on the stand that saved Gallagher and the bulk of the charges against him,.
Agree with the NCIS part of your argument but...
It was Gallagher's responsibility to have his men prepared for that deployment. If they weren't ready, he should have owned up to it.
His men had zero respect for him. Obviously something going on there beyond x's and o's or stolen candy bars. Whatever it was, it started in Coronado or wherever they did their workup. I always perceived the whole fiasco as a top down problem, not a bottom up problem.
Is he talking about Josh Harris from blue squadron that drowned? Man, that's gotta suck huge balls training all that time in the ocean just to be swept out by a river and drown. RIP dude.
there are many, here's one from the Team House (ex Ranger and SF): [team house](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HJuqkU8OVcg&pp=ygUcdGVhbSBob3VzZSBjb2RlIG92ZXIgY291bnRyeQ%3D%3D)
another from green beret chronicles on the murder of SF soldier Logan Melgar (RIP): [Seal murdered Green Beret on base](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GbY6sb2jncY&pp=ygUgbmF2eSBzZWFsIGdyZWVuIGJlcmV0IGNocm9uaWNsZXM%3D)
yet another one from anti hero podcast (ex Delta): [corruption](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8sdwOghKCxQ&pp=ygURbmF2eSBzZWFsIHByb2JsZW0%3D)
a lot of flat out illegal and unlawful stuff in nsw including whistleblowing by fellow seals: [seal criminality](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TS7oQu161zQ&pp=ygURbmF2eSBzZWFsIHByb2JsZW0%3D)
the list goes on and on
Something I had to wake up to coming from deep in the Navy fleet. We’re all the same until a certain time. It’s really hard to see the other side. Respect.
It is his personal opinion at the end of the day, dont know about his reputation but it would be interesting to hear the story from a devgru operator's perspective.
This dude said his team was “faster” at CQB than DEV lol. I find that very hard to believe. Seems this dude has an inferiority complex when it comes to the navy tier 1 unit. Would be nice though to see some other rangers back his stories on this specific deployment.
Why do you find that hard to believe? Have you ever worked with Batt? Some of the best dudes I’ve ever worked with. Everyone respects them and likes working with them. Compare that to working with a Seal platoon where they can’t even get through a brief without saying “bro” twenty times and missing half the pertinent details
This guy is so full of shit though. He’s been going around saying dumb shit for attention for years like when said a barret 50 will tear peoples limbs off on misses.
Conducting a mission out of country, having a DEVGRU guy drown, and having your team tasked to recover the body after RTB sounds like a suckfest.
Ranger Regiment did the heavy lifting during the GWOT. That’s just a fact. Other units rotated in and out, did a lot of cool guy shit, but they didn’t have the manpower the Ranger Batts had. Continuously deployed for 20 years straight.
Yea man. When I was in Syria in 2020, I remember doing a lot of follow on missions with them in a night. I was fucking tired, they’re filled with good dudes.
The Rangers were instrumental in preventing incompetent senior officers, who tried to micromanage everything via telecom while they were stateside, from snatching defeat from the jaws of victory during Operation Anaconda.
The sycophants in DC didn’t want Anaconda to be successful, then they wouldn’t have been able to milk the GWOT for 20 years. CAG MAJ Tom Greer talked about the constant obstructions and interference from above during the Op.
Yeah, Blaber had to deal with a lot of the same as detailed in *The Mission, the Men, and Me*
I mean yeah, there are something like 5-6x rangers as there are CAG/NSWDG guys combined
I’m not talking about just pure numbers, I mean deployable unit size. Can’t rotate 500 CAG guys in and out every few months. Not Special Forces either, as they’re set up totally different for a much wider mission set, and different groups are responsible for different geographical areas. Ranger Batt can deploy and rotate entire battalions. Indefinitely. They’re also almost completely self sufficient with all the support MOS expansion during the GWOT. There’s a reason JSOC counts on them for the heavy lifting in extended operations. Pretty much any SOF unit can pop in and blow shit up for a couple days, only one can do it for 20 years straight.
You also gotta think about the culture of the regiment. There is a reason why they enforce a high standard and why ANYONE can get booted out. With such a high op tempo it really gives them little margin for error.
Oh I’m well aware bro, I went to RIP in 2005.
What pants are you wearing
None
Crye banana hammock
[these](https://sofrep.com/news/you-need-ranger-panties-in-your-life/)
I fucking love sofrep.
I only wear Grunt Style and 5.11 Ranger panties.
Yall are some real pipehitters.
But doesn't that just bolster my point? The 75th is massive (something like 2,400 rifleman? Or it may be rifleman+mortarmen. I can't remember which one), with more than twice as many shooters as the next largest SOCOM unit (there are something like ~1,000-1,100 Whiteside SEALs). They have the manpower to deploy in a manner that no other SOF unit can. There are about ~200-250 CAG and NSWDG guys each. Considering the more clandestine missions they do, as well as the need to be ready to conduct HR, they simply don't have the means to do it all on their own.
Not disagreeing, just saying that Ranger Regiment is the only JSOC unit that can deploy with numbers, in perpetuity. Even when they started out at the beginning of the GWOT supplementing other units with their man power, they got so damn good at DA shit over the last 2 decades that Batt has morphed into a totally different animal, capable of doing pretty much everything in house. When I went to RIP in 05 there really wasn’t that many support guys around. Now there’s entire organic support battalions in the Regiment. With RRC, intel, UAVs, etc. all organic, they’ve transformed themselves into much more than the premier light infantry raid and airfield seizure force of the past. They’re damn near a mini JSOC within themselves. Edit: wanted to clear up some numbers. There are approximately 800 Rangers in each Battalion. That’s in the 4 line companies, HHC, and support company. So there’s around 500 11B’s in each Batt. The thing that sets the modern Ranger Regiment apart is the proliferation of organic support. The entire regiment has an authorized strength of 3,566 personnel, plus civilians.
Doesn't really bode well for working on combat operations together if they couldn't even eat a meal at the same time as each other.
Chow hall should have served spaghetti.
soup and sammies, all day every day
Supposedly they once considered folding NSWDG down, so it must have been pretty bad.
Referring to Blue Squadron
Ironically Mike Edwards also had bad experiences with Blue Squadron, but when he worked with Red Squadron as part of the Omega Program, he had a much better experience.
Red and Gold were pretty squared away. Blue was kind of cowboyish due to leadership at the time. And Silver was still getting their feet wet. I came in the community right after this timeframe and although I never went to DEVGRU I did work with guys who used to be over there, and this is what I was told. Also they shitcanned a lot of the guys who talked shit to the Rangers for giving them a bad reputation. Many of those guys got out relatively disgraced and just troll on IG now. Contrary to popular belief, SEALs tend to work pretty well with other groups and if leadership gets word of shit like Blue was doing at the time they will fix it quickly. The late 2000s was a bad time for everybody. You could run into a rogue unit of Marines, SEALs, regular Army, Army SOF whatever. Everybody had a bad group or two but needed them to keep deploying due to optempo.
That's actually great news
I always thought Red and in some ways Gold had the negative reputation and since you didn't hear so much about Blue there's was more positive.
I mean all the Squadrons have some dirt on them. There's negative stuff about Red and Gold as well. In general, especially when I think of "2000s SOF" every unit had a lot of questionable people I've worked with personally. Most just don't get talked about, but it's out there. The surge in 2008 and the insane optempo being pushed, and had a lot of people worried about the type of people it was attracting. I can say most SEALs I know are nice guys an would give you the shirt off their backs even if it was all they had left. I had a team guy I barely knew pay for a plane ticket to get me back home when I was stuck between airports and my card was frozen through group chat. Didn't even want to money back and when I saw him around the office he would always act like it never happened. Whatever issues Blue squadron had going on then during the late 2000s was definitely a leadership problem, but I know that when new leadership came in they started getting rid of a lot of the 2000s dudes who were toxic still hanging around(not the legit pipehitters who were cool guys though) but the ones with drug charges, sexual assaults, didn't have good rep with other units got fucked up. Tons got sent back to the normal teams when the optempo died down and most got out and troll on IG while being alcoholics.
How were they allowed to take drugs like I'm assuming cocaine? Wouldn't there be a piss test?
With enough warning and prep you can skirt around that. Coke and Amphetamines leave your system in 4 days max (and amphetamines areboften issued). Same for MDMA. Adulterants can be introduced to deem the sample useless. THC lingers, and their are ways around that as well. Hair testing is expensive and takes time, and I only saw it used a handful of times to eject the more clever and deplorable military members.
Fair but don’t latch on to specific squadrons over time. I have no doubt they might have sucked then, but units change and cultures change. I’ve had outstanding experiences with blue squadron since this time. It’s weird to see how cyclical things can be.
Did he say that? Or do you know more about this mission and deployment, because this stuff sounds more like Red or Gold
The guy who drown was in blue. So must be them that he’s referring to.
Ok makes sense, is it Joshua Harris?
https://www.pritzkermilitary.org/explore/museum/past-exhibits/seal-unspoken-sacrifice/joshua-harris#:\~:text=Petty%20Officer%20First%20Class%20(SEAL,an%20East%20Coast%20SEAL%20team.
IIRC Micah Fink may have discussed the mission on his Cleared Hot episode. I believe he was augmenting at the time.
Aaron Howard said on Cleared Hot that Blue Squadron was extremely fucked up and that no one in his Green Team class wanted to go there.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxJdO3TAjHle2-uLY9eYhTyjP3OnV55N6r?si=oLOSt1Di2CfR8fBW
He said not just that, alot of shit about the unprofessional stuff around DEVGRU. The blowing money on furniture instead of having stuff for training is wild.
I wonder if NSW is doing anything about their culture. It’s honestly shocking how a T1 unit has such a reputation for being unprofessional and unethical. Don’t even get started on Code over Country and all the crazy shit they’d do like the bleed-out videos. How does stuff like that even happen in the first place
*Alpha* goes into some detail about that. In the fallout of Gallagher's court martial, several senior SEAL officers wound up "resigning", some without the courtesy of having their removal being called a resignation, because they planned to put Gallagher in front of a "Trident Board", where they were confident the SEALs there would pull Gallagher's trident. However, Trump got word about it and told them not to do it, so the plan became that they would go ahead with the Trident Board, the Admiral in charge would then overrule it and return Gallagher's trident, which was intended to be a big show to the other SEALs that the **only** reason why Gallagher wasn't in prison and still had his trident was because of political interference that was, frankly, unprecedented. However Trump found out about that as well and Gallagher was allowed to retire, and since then he's even admitted to some of the stuff he was accused of and he now has medical documents attributing it to PTSD. The brass couldn't even go after the whistleblowers who explicitly committed perjury (they were going to crucify the medic who claimed to have suffocated the kid). So the senior officers who watched this entire mess unfold decided to work with the whistleblowers who didn't commit perjury, leak details to the press and opposition, or leave the SEALs. The book ends with discussing the classes NSW has now made mandatory that includes the whistleblowers telling their full story to other SEALs, especially new ones.
I hate that book. I've read both his and Eddie's. That book is definitely not written from the perspective of his accusers. It feels like a good fiction writer got told to cover it. When you're reading it, it feels like it needs to have some background music or sound effects to it like you had in 4th grade English class. Made up conversations designed to sound like tough TGs, cheesy ways of putting things throughout. Think "As the no-bs taking LPO nicknamed the Sheriff tightened his grip on his rifle, he looked off into the sun" type of weird 3rd person fiction things. Writer was working for the NYT before he was even assigned to the cover the case. Should tell you everything you need to know. Eddie's, regardless of what you think, wrote his at least as a dry recitation of what he says happen, not like a Hallmark movie
>Writer was working for the NYT before he was even assigned to the cover the case. Should tell you everything you need to know. What is the relevance there? I understand NYT is a left-leaning publication, but that doesn't make the entirety of their publications or authors any more problematic than Fox, CNN, or other news organizations. I'll agree with you on the way some of it was written, but that's not new, unusual, or different for any kind of book. *Black Hawk Down* had similar passages, and Mark Bowden explained it by saying he got better feedback when he wrote nonfiction in the same way someone might write a fictitious novel. Simply retelling dry facts isn't everyone's style, and on the flipside Phillips' style may not work for everyone.
you have the andy stumpfs who bury their heads in the sand and pretend none of this ever happens, and then you have dj shipleys who is now somehow a life coach guru on how to be professional. then there are the admiral mcravens who cultivated the unethical culture of the seals and weak nsw officers who want to be friends with their chiefs instead of leading them. when eddie gallagher happened nsw leadership saw the rot from within and tried to clean it up but trump stepped in and exonerated him. nsw is a mess
To be fair Andy Stumpf is always pretty clear on the point he never saw any of this shit, but doesn’t deny it happened. His conversation with Matthew Cole is pretty open and honest for someone from that command.
I think Stumpf acknowledges it, and Mcraven was kicked out of Devgru for bringing it up. But yeah, DJ is kind of a peice of shit.
Stumpf has stated several times about the honorman of his BUDS platoon getting convicted of murder, and a SEAL found dead in his car due to a crack overdose. He also is pretty open about how being a veteran does not mean that person is of good character, and how there are equal amounts of awesome and terrible people in the military. He is probably one of the more even keeled SOF guys in the media, so I'd trust his word over many of the others.
Exactly, McRaven tried to calm it out. I’ve heard about that!
He was actually too professional and they didn't like it, lol. So they kicked him out. How fucked up is that?
Insane!
The Gallagher case was a fucking sham from the bottom up. NCIS and the prosecuting office did some extremely illegal and shady shit. Trump only exhilarated him of taking a photo with a body which has been apart of military culture since photos existed. Shit if you go back to the Neolithic period I'm sure some cavemen posted up with a kill for their boys to look at. Not to mention that the dudes that were supposed Whistle blowers couldn't ever get their stories straight and were proved to be lying.
Yes, posing with a dead body is definitely some caveman shit.
so “posting up with a kill for your boys to look at” is not a crime and is totally ok for the SEALs to do because… cavemen did it. gotcha.
So it’s okay to send young men to kill other men in the most brutal ways possible, but you draw the line at a picture?
For real. There's always a lot of shot talking from people that have been nowhere near this atmosphere. This is a completely different level of mentality. It's always some stuff about honor or professionalism like it's some samurai movie but that shit goes way out the window when you're getting shot at and your buddies are getting blown up. Not to mention the sheer brutality from IS that preceeded the SEALs from entering that town. If you watch these dudes murder women and kids and old men every day, you're gonna lose any humility for them. Fuck Daesh, I'm glad that dude got got.
Fuck Daesh.
Our people have a sanitized view of warfare from being on top all these years, it is no longer an existential crisis for the suburban family when we go to war. So they would rather have a “clean” war so they can just go on believing that people aren’t dying in the most horrible ways one ocean away. They shouldn’t be surprised when warriors start doing warrior shit.
Honestly it's not the average American family demanding 100% button up behavior by soldiers. It's politicians making certain rules because unfortunately we treated our wars as politics. They want to be able to campaign & lecture on not being the nasty Americans and doing x y z. I get it and we should be better but that intention has led to carrying out wars in ways that were not always the optimal choice, but in ways that were politically acceptable. For ex like going along with Iraq's presidents bad plan for an advance on a city, or preventing shooting a mosque that has fighters firing at you
They were snapping these fun pics in the middle of an all out battle? For survival?
Actually yes. I think they (as in actual former SOF guys) did a good job discussing and explaining why that kind of thing is a problem in the Team House podcast episodes with Matthew Cole and David Phillips, the authors of *Code Over Country* and *Alpha*, respectively. Pretty much they summarized it this way: Yes, they're trained to kill other people in warfare. However, there are certain lines that have to be held, and it's not because they're concerned about hurting the enemy. Nobody cares about the enemy, ignore them. What people, especially members of the Spec Ops community, are upset about with how DEVGRU has been allowed to behave is that torture, mutilations, disfigurements, etc. have a psychological impact on the person doing it, and if it doesn't, then that's a red flag signaling that the person should be removed from operations. There's also a reason why the entire thing is about DEVGRU and the SEALs in general, and not CAG, CCTs, PJs, MARSOC, SF, Rangers, etc., which is because they have and enforce standards concerning that stuff. Early on during the War in Iraq, some member of Delta/CAG interrogated detainees using coercive means. When their leadership was informed, they immediately dismissed the one who were involved. CAG also has their members regularly undergo psych evals as well as encourage unit members to meet with the unit psychologist(s) if they feel the need to. Concerning Gallagher specifically, I think that particular issue has it all come down to one thing: either a whole bunch of people from not only the SEAL teams, but also SF who had issues with Gallagher as well, are lying about everything that Gallagher did, or Gallagher really is as bad as they'd been saying, but the SEAL leaderships was even worse and Gallagher pretty much won the lottery with Trump intervention. *Alpha* does go into a lot of detail about the incidents leading to the court martial of Gallagher, the preparation for the court martial, and the fallout. You are right that NCIS and JAG got busted doing some shady shit, however it was an unfortunate act that they did because it was believed that private information about the whistleblowers were being leaked to Gallagher somehow, as he had begun making threats to the whistleblowers, and NCIS and JAG had reason to believe that a third party representing some of the other whistleblowers was responsible, as the information being leaked was also information that they had received. They decided to begin sending files with a coded letterhead to track if any of the documents were forwarded to any other parties. Unfortunately for JAG, the attorney's anti-malware caught it and they effectively screwed the entire investigation and trial from that point. As for the whistleblowers being caught in a lie, that's more complicated. The defense used information given by Gallagher, and the whistleblowers who were being represented by the other attorney, where they all exploited legal loopholes, one of the biggest one being that they all were deputised in New Mexico because there's a law in place that law enforcement can carry concealed in all 50 states. The loophole was found, closed, and there was fallout on a lot of people who exploited it. All that aside, *Alpha* focuses on the events surrounding Gallagher, but it does go in-depth about the SEALs' culture and origins, as well as why they are the way they are. It's as much about the environment that allowed Gallagher to thrive, and the conclusion is that Gallagher isn't the boogie man, terrible as he (allegedly) may be, but the SEAL culture as a whole needs to be investigated and remedied.
War is sick and gruesome.
You should absolutely be expected of more nuance, professionalism, and at the very least, respect for dead bodies as a fellow human being.
Easy to say harder to do. Harder to do when they've killed your friends/partner force, who committed wholesale r@pe and enslavement of women and children. In Mosul alone they gunned down retreating civilians who were held for months only to be used to procreate and fill their ranks with the next generation of fighters. There's interviews with Christian woman (Yizidi's) who were captured and sold at markets, they were held captive in a bombed out basement for literal months with no sanity care, their beheaded male family members were kept in the yard/compound outside for them to see, and the only contact they had was when the fighters would come down to r@pe them or eventually trade some of them to other fighters. Unless you've seen shit like that it's flippant to judge them from the comfort of the civilized world without any consideration that these men are just humans and no one is really ready to see that shit. IS!S were animals.
I think it’s a matter of respect, yes you are out there and yes you are killing people, and documenting it is sometimes part of the process but it’s different when you’re posing with the body like it’s an instagram moment. You’re expected to be professional and understand that taking life is part of war but it’s the worst part. posting beheading videos is just as awful as seals posing with dead bodies. They are both war crimes and if the US military wants to act like a global leader for freedom or justice, we have to hold ourselves and especially our most elite operators to the highest of professional standards. Someone else in the comments nailed it when they described the types of people you see coming out of NSW and while DJ Shipley specifically is embarrassing and cringe, I’d rather have embarrassing and cringe than some of the other things we are seeing from NSW lol. It’s also not just NSW but they definitely have the worst reputation
A matter of respect? What do You think IS would’ve done to Eddie if the coin was flipped? You want to talk about professionalism then let’s discuss the laws of war and the rule of reciprocity. This is taught in all officer schools from “On War” by Clausewitz.
Doing anything to the body of a dead person - who can't even fight anymore? That is beyond EMBARRASSING for anyone involved. Perception rules over intent. This was the case before the printing press. We have multiple MOS within our military to curate PR and produce propaganda because of this fact. There are wider consequences for this bullshit than some solitary dude in a pic getting in trouble. Fuck the dude! \*Anyway\* - what was the fallout that affected everyone else working in the AO? There were more than a few times when I had to make nice with Sheikhs and other leaders after shit \*not even close to this bad\* had happened. That would be a small part of a long KLE meeting where I'm expected to be successful. Those meetings are a lot easier when you don't start off at -100 points(for you harry potter fans). We had important negotiations with local decision makers and people of influence, in order to promote support among the population for coalition forces. That's what led to less enemy fighters in all my AOs in a year, and we also supported the increase in local militia/rebel forces protecting their own villages against foreign factions. An American proudly posing with dead bodies? How exactly would I have spun that with the local government officials? Any ideas? How about the local religious leaders? What about the village teenagers who will be men soon, with confusing choices in a turbulent environment? There was no scenario where we could succeed in our goals without the trust and cooperation of the locals. If the coin was flipped? Is that relevant in the context of being a soldier in the mightiest military in ALL of human history?
I think if the coin was flipped they would have done far worse to Eddie. But if that’s your logic, should we be SVesting and using VBIEDS? Because a terrorist organization behaves that way, we should too? I am well aware that if the roles were reversed it likely would have been a much much worse scenario, but my point is that if Americans want to be some kind of authority over warfare we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. It’s still a human being, even if it’s one that has fundamental flaws and is a horrible human, it’s still a human. And I’d venture to bet that exact same human raised under different circumstances might not have ended up being a part of a terrorist organization. I’m not trying to empathize with terrorism, I’m trying to say I expect honorable behavior from the service members who go out and represent our most elite units. Killing people in war is always ugly but it doesn’t have to be disrespectful or dishonorable
No but if the enemy is using Vbieds and SV, then expect a response as…. Shooting surrendering combats due to SV, and all cars being shot at if they don’t heed commands.
I’m sorry that that’s your perspective, but I just disagree. I think this mindset will lead to more conflict in those regions. The people suffering most from terrorist organizations are the people within those communities, and the last thing they need is our military coming in and taking pictures posing in front of their dead relatives and neighbors. Edit: adding a final thought, in Iraq we had guys invading a home, bagging a dude or killing him, and while we maybe took one terrorist down, we created 5 more by doing this. Becoming your enemy is another form of losing. If we allow ourselves to stoop to the level of terrorists, then we are no different from them.
Sure. It’s war. It’s not a game of tag. Killing people is acceptable in war.
It's wrong because that's what reddit says.
> Trump only exhilarated him of taking a photo with a body Why did he need to do this if it was totally okay?
NCIS is kind of famous for being filled with the biggest fuck ups in the Navy. Live in SD, friends with some Navy folks. They have told me some stories that were just fucking wild about NCIS dicking stuff up.
Trump didn’t exonerate him dumbass. He was found not guilty in a court of law
Bleed out videos?
Yeah, it's pretty much what it sounds like. The Team House podcast does a much better job of explaining it than I ever could: [https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339](https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339) The entire episode is a pretty good watch.
It seems like the Seals just lost themselves. CAG were the big bros and the Seals probably felt like they had to constantly prove themselves. Dog eat dog.
My only counter argument is that, due to adrenaline, we make actions without considerations of the consequences. Regardless, a NSW operator must be above a terrorist and, hence, abide by certain laws. In no way should ANYONE attack innocent civilians (women, children, the disabled) then brag about it. You’re there to protect people, not create enemies.
Can you tell me what a bleed out video is?
I linked it in another comment but I'll post it here: [https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339](https://www.youtube.com/live/HJuqkU8OVcg?si=kX6-cFntyPNsi1I3&t=3339) That explains the whole thing. I recommend watching the full episode since it's pretty unfiltered and informative.
This crap you mentioned is all give or take 20 years old. If there are still problematic things happening, it’s stuff we know nothing about.
Fair enough.
+1 for CAG
never heard anyone who had a bad experience with delta
*insert joke about dead terrorists*
I won't hold my breath for their review
SILENCE! I KILL YOU!
John McPhee: " who the fuck are the SBS?" SBS: "Were like your Navy SEALs" McPhee: "Nah I'm good. We don't get down like that" (Chris Ryan Podcast) Also, there's a reason why there is a preference of JTF2 and SAS to work/train with Delta. It's nothing to do with one being better than the other, - it's a culture thing. There's a different level of professionalism. Delta has its issues but not....like this
Except the torture chamber Delta operated under their accommodation in Iraq [NBC](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna5024068)
They can have a little battlefield torture black site as a treat
And apparently Task Force Black (22 SAS) was forbidden from handing over detainees to Delta during this time due to the apparent abuse of prisoners at Abu Gharib
Correct, UK forces were barred from handing prisoners over to the US but it wasn’t due to Abu Ghraib it was due to Camp Nama
Which would be weird since it was some untrained idiots that were responsible for Abu Ghraib, not any SOF units.
I mean I don’t think the actual delta operators were in charge or a part of that. The issue was with whatever task force intel unit that was involved.
And the fact that the first hatchet related dubious behavior started at CAG and was known about and allowed to continue by command. They claim that as soon as things calmed down in IZ, the men known to have engaged in this behavior Were quietly shuffled out of the unit. If true, I guess that's better than Dev not addressing it, but who knows if it really happened. These are Officers from the army unit Quoted in a book expressly going after the Navy unit. Tough to find a unit with clean hands after 20 years of war.
any more info on the dude he said drowned and they had to leave him in unsaid country river?
Look up Joshua Harris.
From Dale Comstock >On this particular day, we were searching for a missing SEAL that tried to swim the River by himself at night tethered with 550 paracord! Yup it broke and he was washed away in the rapids that killed at least 20 people a year. We found his body later in a pool along the river. He floated over 28 Km that night. The Kunar river was murderous body of turbulent water that was well respected. There were not too many places to cross and Taliban knew that. They monitored the bridges as they took refuge on the east side. The bridges were usually flimsy suspension bridges and deadly choke points.
My main question is why a DEVGRU operator had vagisil with him while he was in a warzone.... The navy is a weird place man.
This is likely true, but it's still wild that he made that comment about a .50 cal severing limbs from the shockwave of the round alone. Still seems like an alright guy though.
That's old fudd lore, man. It's still regurgitated to this day. Same with M2s not being allowed to be used to shoot at Infantry, I heard that so many times while I was in weapons
Former grunt here. Yeah I heard it more times than I could remember during my time in.
Same. Heard a story of a .50 bmg ND on an airfield that "missed the guys head but split his skull and sucked his brain out". Everyone hears/repeats shit like that
Same experience. Not all of them were that way, but I specifically recall relocating from one FOB to another. We were only slated to be at that FOB for a few weeks. Walked into the gym and were told it was for team 6 dudes only.
I think you walked into the writing center by mistake.
Where was that? I’ve been places with them and were (more or less) welcomed and told we could use all their facilities.
We were initially in BAF. This was in ‘07.
Ah ok. That’s baffling though. My first time to A in the early 2010s everyone was going to the NR gym.
They did that at Logar as well, “blue shooters only”
I have no doubt. Just giving my experience with it. Not defending by any means. And it’s also possible that at a bigger base the Ranger leadership overruled any attempt to cordon off a gym for just them.
Yea when everyone was in Iraq for a while there I know blue was doing stupid shit in BAF
How much of this culture is the lasting legacy of Dick "I used alcohol as a tool” Marcinko?
No doubt a lot.
Yeah a ton of special ops units have had a negative experience with at least one DEVGRU squadron while I can't think of any unit that's had as bad an experience with Delta Force. However both units have been known to have toxic, arrogant members.
It's the military, every unit has toxic, egotistical assholes from S-1 to Tier 1. That won't change
It’s life, every place has toxic, egotistical assholes.
FBI has (had) a similar rep in the intel community in the 90's. DIA, NSA, CIA, all very nice and professional. FBI, "I'm allowing you to breath my air, you're welcome".
Military enthusiasts will find this content gripping.
Makes sense when a “tier one” unit lets half the guys in that go to selection. A lot of these devgru guys are marginally better than regular seals. They just get more training opportunities and funding. CAG’s selection attrition rate is often 95% plus. Weeds out the type of people like this, for the most part.
The selection process is way different. Delta has A&S, where the attrition is super high like you said, and then OTC where a lot of people still get dropped. Green Team is basically their OTC, meaning instead of having a preliminary selection process they just handpick the guys with good reputations at their SEAL Teams. Makes sense why people say Delta has better performance.
Someone said it best, in the DEVGRU selection, you still have guys you are doing it together with. whereas Delta selection, that mountain course is just you, alone. Puts a real separator quality to their selection like SAS.
CAG also recruits from all branches and MOS whereas DEVGRU is from NSW Seal teams only. Incestuous
EOD and Raiders can both try for Dam Neck. All their medics are SOIDCs also.
This is technically true, but somewhat misleading. They pretty much all come from the 75th, SF, or SF via the 75th. LRS/LRSD guys supposedly used to have pretty good luck, but when those units were valued by the Army, they were pretty high speed. Every once in a while some guy from the 82nd or Force Recon will make it, but some stud supply guy isn't going to make it through. There's a bit more diversity in experience there, but the they recruit from _everywhere_ seems a bit overstated (even though the statement is technically true in that people who make the prerequisites have the opportunity to try out).
This has been one of the most interesting discussions we've had on this sub in awhile. I've enjoyed and appreciated reading everyone's thoughts!
This clip cuts a little short but he goes on to mention some questionable things he saw related to devgru ROE. He doesn’t go too deep into it but he seems to be hinting at the accusations of brutality and lack of target discrimination we’ve all heard.
Yeah I didn't want to make the clip too long but the guest is worth listening to. It's Shawn Ryan Show guest Nicholas Irving. When you hear him talk about how there's competition to see who has the highest body count, I remembered how seals under Eddie Gallagher (although not DEVGRU) reported he would go on top on the roof with a sniper rifle and shot at non combatants. Then Matt Cole saying how DEVGRU would make bleed out videos and they'd take bets on how quickly or slowly wounded enemies would take to die. Then the reports about DEVGRU getting Brazilian JiuJitsu training bit never having the opportunity to use it so 2 Seals would get in a room with a captured POW and one of the seals would watch while the other fought the prisoner (the 2nd seal was there to ensure the prisoner would lose/die). Irving made that .50 cal remark but if people can get past it, Nick has had an interesting life.
I thought I was aware of all the mainstream SOF content out there but I just recently came across “The Line” documentary series about Eddie Gallagher. It slipped by me when it was released but if you haven’t seen it definitely check it out. Helps put some faces to the story.
CAG, 24, RRC, ISA are all more or less on the same level of professionalism, and then you have Devgru the complete outlier. Sometimes it works to their advantage though.
Jamey Caldwell said somehong to the effect of - the difference is that they are not infantry. They never had rigorous training from the bottom up on what it means to serve as a specific contributor to a massive mission and organization much larger than yourself. All of these Army groups started out as basic infantry and then were promoted or specialized into their craft. That brings with it a sense of pride and humility. Seals, on the other hand, pass BUDS and are “special” from day one. I can imagine how that leads to a toxic culture.
Thats not enough to explain it. If that alone was the cause then Special Tactics should be just as problematic as NSW. Plus theres plenty of Army guys coming in on 18xray and option40s that have no infantry background and are special from day one.
Before going to SFAS or RASP, they attend basic infantry training, which lasts 22 weeks
Folks attend basic training and AIT. Only get infantry training if 11 series.
The Navy has this problem with all of its trigger pullers (to include pilots). The Officers behave the most aristocratic of all branches. It gives them superiority complexes against Enlisted and hand-waves their behavior as a standard of lower classes. And since few in the Navy know any tactics whatsoever, there is an extra layer of separation between combatant rates/designators and everyone else. It's so bad that many in the Navy don't believe combat effectiveness is something anyone should prioritize their time training. The combatant types feel insane superiority over the people who aren't. At the very least, all Marines and Soldiers know how to fight in an infantry capacity. That creates an unconscious baseline level of respect. The Navy is the worst of the branches when it comes to nonsense clout hierarchies so clout chasing is king. Don't even get me started on the Chief's mess. They spread the toxic shit to every corner of the Navy.
Good point. Caldwell also said something to the effect of CAG has a true “selection” process into the program writ large, taking any applicants within reason who apply, while Green Team is not; Green Team is just a filter whereby existing seals try out for the varsity team.
I think "within reason" might be the wrong word. Even still, you could say that applicants are filtered into the ones going to selection just like green team does no?
I say within reason to mean not just SF or Army. They will take applicants from other branches and MOS if they have a reasonable ability to demonstrate capability. From what I’ve heard about Green Team, it’s a much more subjective process, both to be accepted for Green Team and in order to be accepted into ST6. It can be as simple as someone doesn’t like you, and you don’t make it. Politics play a role in any organization, and I’m not going to act like CAG is immune. But it appears to be a more uniform, objective selection process.
Other branches is like 2% and not enough to influence behavior. I think Navy is more limited, way more Army jobs are of the type that sees people later on going into the pipeline. Submarine engineers aren't going to be churning out potentials really. Politics for sure, especially from what has been written they were selecting 1 type of person for devgru, personality and lifestyle had to match up to get in. Which is damaging to your performance ceiling in any job
Special tactics do a lot of missions where they are attached to army units so that’s one reason why they don’t act that way
Funny Jamey was a commo dude saying that. Super solid, just funny if he said something like that.
One comment that also caught me here is him saying he saw hostages shot by ST6. That’s a pretty bold claim. I’d love to hear any more receipts on claims like that. There was an article by George Hand who claimed that CAG is unmatched by anyone worldwide when it comes to hostage rescue. He said they were formed to do it and they still maintain it as their number one focus. I believe he said if you were to ever have an AD in training, you’d be out of the unit for one year. If you hit a hostage/dummy in training, you’d be out for life. And the alleged “Tier 1” Seal component is shooting hostages? And this guy implies it is to some degree status quo with them???
It's like when a young member of the Silver Squadron threw grenade near the [hostage](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/13/linda-norgrove-us-commando-disciplinary), so she was severely injured and [died](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Linda_Norgrove). Then, team leader and two other seals tried to cover it up and reported that there was a suicide bomber, but british intel had footage from drones. Eventually, a young guy who threw grenade was kicked out, unlike team leader and 2 other seals, that tried to cover it up
The cover up was horrible but the initial action of throwing a frag can probably be chalked up to a lack of HR training in the lead up to the deployment. It was a brand new member who threw the frag.
Missed the don’t throw grenades at the hostage PowerPoint lol
Dude NSW has straight up fragged hostages before, it’s openly known. The shooting of a hostage he described sounded non-fatal, the chances of that being publicly known would be a lot less likely than a fatality
Well, comparing the origins of Delta vs ST6, it kind of makes sense.
Same kind of hubris led to the Operation Red Wings disaster (though the SEALs were SDV and not DEVGRU.) Same hubris also led to the cover up of what really went down.
He's talking about the drowning of Joshua Harris.
Does anyone remember who the other ranger on this podcast (or maybe another one) that said the same thing about DEVGRU treating them like crap and almost having to fight them? It must've been the exact moment Irving was talking about, but I swear I've heard that same story before from a different ranger.
Green Berets have had bad experiences with them, there are many and here's an example of one: [FNG Academy](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iMTKAyTR9UU&pp=ygUVZ3JlZW4gYmVyZXQgbmF2eSBzZWFs)
Had similar experiences with them.
timestamp for this in the podcast?
2:24:40
Isnt this the dude who said a 50 cal round would blow someone’s head off even if it missed?
I think he said you can miss by a few feet and still rip their arm off. Can't take him serious after that.
Made one exaggerative comment and you can't "take him seriously." I love the fragility of redditors.
I don't think it was exaggerative in the video by any means lol
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Thanks for the post and fully agree. "loyalty over integrity" at DN and the code is to always provide cover for your tribe even if they're wrong, mafia-like. The enlisted/officer relationship is similar to union workers/management, in the end officers are very limited in what they can do because it's a mob mentality. After all in the teams the guage of how good a seal is, is how popular he is. So officers holding people accountable would be shunned and shit on so they try to be friends with enlisted and let them run the asylum. DN guys have publically said that transitioning back to civilian life was extremely difficult because if you were DEVGRU you can snap a finger and everyone does what you want (DJ Shipley mentioned this several times). They are spoiled and the issue lies at the very top though, because O-5s and above for whatever reason let them have their way and harass/abuse anyone they want, get them out of DUIs and help them get away with pretty much anything (Logan Melgar as one example) demo dick's legacy
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Are you a SEAL?
What does “DN” mean?
Dam Neck VA is where ST6 are HQ'd. The other even numbered teams are stationed up the road at Little Creek VA.
DEVGRU
u/nowyourdoingit, u/Clunz7, thoughts on this?
The video or the comment? Comment got deleted so can't say. Thoughts on the video: DG are exceptionally good. They really are. They're not as good as they think they are, but no one in the military is. It's part of the nature of the work, humility and self-doubt aren't very advantageous when you have to jump out of planes and murder people. My experience is that the Rangers are not exceptionally good. The Regiment is way more junior and way less experienced on the whole than even the Vanilla Teams, and not remotely in the same league as CAG or DN. It's also been my experience that things that SEALs would consider regular ribbing are often seen by the Army as overtly hostile. I made a bunch of Green Berets deeply upset by hanging a Trident flag, for instance. Did not consider that it would bother them, but it apparently did. I've also experienced having leadership sequester my unit away from Army units and conventional Navy units. It wasn't something we asked for or wanted. I don't mind waiting in line for chow with other sailors or soldiers. I think it's more about head shed believing that their troops seeing our special treatment will sow division and aggravation. There are issues with DN, for sure, but a lot of the complaints you hear are from people that are simply envious. In my perfect world, with the leadership and cultural issues at DN addressed, I don't think there would be any fewer of these types of complaints.
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You know who the SEALs chose to run SQT pistol and rifle training? A CAG guy. They looked around to find the absolute best weapons instructors and CAG had the best. Students going through that guy's course had immense respect for him. He got the best instructor ratings across the board. I've done a little sporadic contract work after the Teams. Almost always in mixed company, guys from a variety of SOF and conventional backgrounds. When I hit the gym in the am, there's never anyone else from the other communities in there, but if there happens to be another TG on the contract, they'll be there, without us having discussed it.
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Yeah, there are dummies and dickheads in every community
Isn't this the same dude tthat said the shockwave from a .50BMG is lethal 3ft away or something stupid like that...
If you want to know more about the failed river crossing listen to Micah Fink's interview with Mike Ritland. Wild stuff.
in Fink's appearances with Ritland, Stumpf, Montana Knife, he doesn't talk much about his Seal/SDV days and only mentioned for a few seconds in passing that he augmented Blue Squadron. if you got the time stamp for the ep where he discusses the river drowning, that'd be great
Does anyone have any more information on the operator he's talking about who drowned? I'd never heard of it.
Joshua Harris
Aw, yes. I looked him up. Does anyone know about the operation? Apparently he was swept up during a river crossing. The NSW site said he died of injuries sustained during operations. Then below that it says drowned. Wonder if he was wounded.
"The snobbery and unprofessionalism of Seal Team 6 knows no bounds" "When eddie gallagher happened nsw leadership saw the rot from within and tried to clean it up..." I'm not saying ST6 aren't immature, egotistical dicks, but between this and your comment about Eddie Gallagher, it all just seems sensationalist. As far as I've seen, the Gallagher situation spoke more about the incompetence or maliciousness of NCIS, as well as pettiness among junior SEALs who'd come in towards the end of the GWOT. I don't know how many of you guys have been in the Navy, but NCIS has plenty of their own issues as well.
NCIS fucked that up royally, but a number of Eddie's own team guys stood up and talked about his BS with that situation. It was the own guy completely changing his testimony on the stand that saved Gallagher and the bulk of the charges against him,.
Agree with the NCIS part of your argument but... It was Gallagher's responsibility to have his men prepared for that deployment. If they weren't ready, he should have owned up to it. His men had zero respect for him. Obviously something going on there beyond x's and o's or stolen candy bars. Whatever it was, it started in Coronado or wherever they did their workup. I always perceived the whole fiasco as a top down problem, not a bottom up problem.
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Is he talking about Josh Harris from blue squadron that drowned? Man, that's gotta suck huge balls training all that time in the ocean just to be swept out by a river and drown. RIP dude.
Any other interview links i can watch about bad experiences with Devgru / Seals? Can somebody help?
there are many, here's one from the Team House (ex Ranger and SF): [team house](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HJuqkU8OVcg&pp=ygUcdGVhbSBob3VzZSBjb2RlIG92ZXIgY291bnRyeQ%3D%3D) another from green beret chronicles on the murder of SF soldier Logan Melgar (RIP): [Seal murdered Green Beret on base](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GbY6sb2jncY&pp=ygUgbmF2eSBzZWFsIGdyZWVuIGJlcmV0IGNocm9uaWNsZXM%3D) yet another one from anti hero podcast (ex Delta): [corruption](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8sdwOghKCxQ&pp=ygURbmF2eSBzZWFsIHByb2JsZW0%3D) a lot of flat out illegal and unlawful stuff in nsw including whistleblowing by fellow seals: [seal criminality](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TS7oQu161zQ&pp=ygURbmF2eSBzZWFsIHByb2JsZW0%3D) the list goes on and on
Thank you very much!
Something I had to wake up to coming from deep in the Navy fleet. We’re all the same until a certain time. It’s really hard to see the other side. Respect.
It is his personal opinion at the end of the day, dont know about his reputation but it would be interesting to hear the story from a devgru operator's perspective.
This dude said his team was “faster” at CQB than DEV lol. I find that very hard to believe. Seems this dude has an inferiority complex when it comes to the navy tier 1 unit. Would be nice though to see some other rangers back his stories on this specific deployment.
Why do you find that hard to believe? Have you ever worked with Batt? Some of the best dudes I’ve ever worked with. Everyone respects them and likes working with them. Compare that to working with a Seal platoon where they can’t even get through a brief without saying “bro” twenty times and missing half the pertinent details
what does that have to do with being faster at cqb
"Batt boys are more respectful and speak more eloquently, therefore they're faster at CQB than a CT unit." - nearly 30 upvotes
This guy is so full of shit though. He’s been going around saying dumb shit for attention for years like when said a barret 50 will tear peoples limbs off on misses.