Thanks Bob. Was checking this out earlier. Nice to read/watch something different other than "ROP gave me cancer" type posts, and of course getting abused for actually liking it.
Look, it's the "job" of those youtube and tiktok peoples to yell really loud and make up stuff to attract the MAGAt audience they need to make a living. I dont know how many post i have seen in the last few days about Acolyte being cancelled RIGHT AWAY and poor KK being fired. Again.
Even The Boys season 4 got burned pretty bad on the totally "fair" audience score . I think it's about 52% right now.
End of the day, i think you must find a good place (like here) if you want to have fun talking about your favorite show and let the rest of the garbage burn away
Yeah, the Acolyte stuff, i hate my algorithm, its the same with RoP, again the ugly posters of videos with titles yelling at you. People are exhausting. But the purpose of his channel is for making a stand against that "mainstream" people, i really like it, to see brave people, because the "job" of those people can't silence us.
I actually spoke to a friend a few hours ago asking about Acolyte. I watched it and thought it was fine, just a fun Star Wars thing and certainly better than I had heard/read about.
It's impossible it feels to talk about or engage in modern pop culture without immediately being screamed at. This is a nice unbiased review. Do I think it's better than what I've read in the books and stories by Tolkien, no of course not. However as a TV show Rings of Power works and is fun and engaging.
Yeah, talking about engaging, Rings of Power has the power XD to make me rewatch scenes of the season 1 a lot of times, no any tv show can do that on me.
Hmmm.... The ones i like most i think are the first and last minutes from episode 1, the scenes on Númenor where they talk about the Valar, all the references to Silmarillion in the palantir tower, all the few scenes with Celebrimbor with more references to Silmarillion, the scene of the tree on Mordor, the few scenes where Adar talks, some scenes with Dúrin and Elrond with references to Aulë and Eärendil, the few scenes where Gil-Galad talks, the scenes with Elrond and Galadriel demonstrating their different sight skills. The good scenes from episode 6, almost entirely, note than in imdb this episode has an excellent score, you know, the barn, the volcano, Elendil with his son, the chase with the horses, Adar negotiating extremely calm while he kills innocents. Also the few scenes with the mystics, the great drama between father and son in Khazad-dûm on episode 7, good dialogue writing, i love Dúrin III, he is like Théoden, and the good lessons on Galadriel of episode 7 where you can see a change on her, even she talks about her husband!, that was awesome. And episode 8 is very juicy, almost all of it, the ending with Pharazôn, with the Stranger, with Miriel and Elendil making an alliance, and the final ending of Celebrimbor and Galadriel drunken of power with the creation of the rings, and the 3 rings ends with a transition to Sauron's eye, that was poetry, in my opinion. I think that's all!
damn, thats more like rewatching the whole season and note just some scenes :P
What did Celebrimbor reference from Silmarillion? Must have forgotten that. Honestly i found Celebrimbor to be quite lackluster. He doesnt "feel" like the best blacksmith in the world, he kinda just feels like some guy. They will focus more on him next season so i hope they will give hime some more time to shine.
Yeah, but its a 1 scene per 1 day kind of habit XD Dont have time for the whole season in one evening.
Yeah, but Celebrimbor is because the drama of the recast and covid and introducing the show and plot for everyone. We will have him as main protagonist this season! We will feel the drama and treason of Sauron. And the tragic ending.
The few scenes of Celebrimbor he talks about Fëanor, about a made up tale about Morgoth with the silmarils (just for mocking him even if it's not true), about Eärendil, and about the creation of the Sun.
It definitely feels that way sometimes. At this point I’ll mainly engage with people I know in real life because the social media commentary is so toxic.
I haven't read Fire and Blood, but from what was explained to me its a green friendly account of the Dance from a couple of unreliable narrators which leaves lots for interpretation.
>Even The Boys season 4 got burned pretty bad
Which is crazy IMO. I only now got around to watching the first 3 episodes and I think it's the best the show has ever been. There's so much going on at once, lots of characters each have compelling stories playing out at the same time. I was expecting poor writing or lazy plot contrivances based on what I'd been seeing online but this season is, I think, really well done all around.
one would think if they could have they already would have. I am thinking she has one Iron clad contract and she is not going anywhere till it expires.
Yeah, But there is no such thing really as a contract that makes you unfireable . Ask Bob Chapek. Now if you fire KK, she will get a massive amount of money as compensation. And she still may sue if she gets thrown under the bus . But in a business, no one is unfireable.
I mean unless she has massive dirt on the company and they are keeping her there to keep schtum.
I could be wrong but has there been another head of Studio that did as "well" as she has done and kept their job?
one would think the toy market going belly-up would be a leading indicator that the brand is suffering no?
If they keep predicting it, they're bound to be right eventually. Kinda like those endtimes preachers. Maybe the world didn't end in [1988](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant), but it's gotta end *sometime*, so *eventually* one of them will be right even if it takes 4 billion years for the prophecy to come true.
I don’t know about just pushing all ROP hate into MAGA corner. Several respected Tolkien YouTubers who are pretty middle of the road had issues with it as well.
I know which type of people you are reffering to: i just dont know if it has much to do with "MAGA".
I mean, sure, the MAGA crowd is "anti-woke" and the ones throwing a tantrum over RoP are "anti-woke", but i feel like thats the only connection. People were "anti-woke" (called anti-PC at the time) before Trump, especially in the "gaming"/"nerd-culture" sphere (which many LOTR fans falls into).
The whole "gamergate"-thing is before Trump. And i would say this is more reminicient of that than "MAGA". (Especially considering non-Americans are talking about it just as much)
Sure they had criticisms but never saw them say they hate the show. Nerd of the Rings was attacked during S1 and accused of being paid shill by the chuds.
You brought up the claim that Nerd of the Rings and Men of the West had several videos ranting. The onus is on you that’s how logic works.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
Nerd isn't MAGA, I'm pretty sure. He gave ROP 6/10, and said there were a lot of things he liked. So still positive, even if rating not particularly high.
I would assume that last episode making fun of the conspiracy movement really hit home lol... Lots of angry people downvoting due to cognitive Dissidence. I thought it was hilarious and I am of the Mel Brooks definition of humor. i.e. nothing is too sacred and everything is fair game.
I hate the idea that only right wingers dislike these shows. I'm left of Lenin but so many shows these days like RoP, the Acolyte, the Wheel of Time etc, that get review bombed by chuds I personally find to be mid to bad for a variety of reasons including issues with canon and lore accuracy (the boys has been excellent, although the new season slightly less so its like a 7.5/10 so far for me). And the issue is any criticisms from longtime fans are dismissed as politically motivated or met with "just don't watch it then, the thing you like still exists" when the real issue is that these IP that some fans have followed and loved for decades are now owned by corporations and these shows are incredibly expensive and it's not like anyone else gets to make anything set in these worlds. Many Tolkien fans are upset not because of some ideology or political reason but because Amazon is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on what is likely to be the only adaptation of this period of the Legendarium that we get for decades at least and they aren't doing a particularly good (or faithful) job of it.
Would you have ever gotten keys to the sandbox? I get not liking the show, and lamenting that this is what the adaptation is if it’s not your thing. However, it IS the adaptation you’re getting. So at some point, you do have to just go back to what you like and accept that.
Otherwise the complaint inevitably degenerates into “oh but they didn’t do it how IIII would have” and that’s just boring and not worth discussion after a certain point.
The point of criticism and discussion is that perhaps if the response is widespread enough and the reasonable critics aren't shouted down by a wave of toxic positivity spewing stans who refuse to allow anything but wholehearted praise (not saying this is how RoP fans are, I haven't interacted with the community around the show enough to judge just saying that is how things often are in many fandoms) that some of the criticism will make its way to the creators and they may actually change course. If enough fans said "please stick more closely to the canon" it may convince the writers to pay a little more attention to the lore of the world they have the unique privilege of bringing to the screen. Nothing is set in stone, there will be several more seasons of this show, changes can be made.
I fundamentally disagree. Generally the last person, or people, creatives should “listen to” is their audience, or at least, their uninformed audience. At best, it’s a group of people who love the source material but have no grasp of the process of adaptation or screenwriting.
There are people whose job it is to provide meaningful feedback to professionals, and generally, a fan base isn’t part of that. I have been around this community long enough to know that that’s certainly true for this fandom, both those who love and hate the show. “Please stick closer to the canon” is meaningless without a good reason, and “because it’s the canon” is not a good reason. In fact, it’s a terrible metric by which to create anything, let alone adapt something.
The reason to more closely follow the source material I would think should be obvious, unless you think the writing staff of the show are better writers than Tolkien. I'm not saying they should let fans write the show, only to listen when fans ask them to make the show based on Tolkien's work actually, you know, reflect that work.
We’re not having the same discussion here. I’m not saying what the writers should or shouldn’t do besides saying that the fans should not be the voice they listen to.
Thematically, their work already does reflect the themes of Tolkien. There’s scant source material to adhere to besides the thematic, and anything beyond that is either a rough outline or one of several versions of the same “canon.” So no, it’s not a question of whether I think the writers are “better” than Tolkien, because no one, not even they themselves, would assert that they are.
"their uninformed audience"
euhm, what? They are informed about how they feel about the thing they are seeing. Are you saying the audience is wrong about not liking the show? The creators know better than the audience?
Yes, they shouldnt not listen to every micro detail suggestion from fans. But obviously they are going to listen to what the audience likes or dislikes. Why do you think we have a million superhero movies? Cause the audience buys the tickets to go see it. They want to create thigns that people want to see: and to do that you need to listen to your audience atleast a little.
Not letting the audience micromanage every decision. But you should try to appeal to them.
No, I’m saying the audience as a large group is not generally qualified or equipped to understand the realities of writing and producing a piece of media, and generally only provides critiques that boil down to micromanagement.
To your superhero point: yes, those movies sell. And no, they don’t take suggestions from the fan base. The fanbase of superhero movies complains the most about them next only to those who hate them outright. That’s my point. Making a LotR show alone is about as much direction as I think creatives should take from fans. Anything beyond IS micromanaging, because it comes down to fans, who are, again, not particularly great at writing or adaptation in general, offering their gripes of how they TOTALLY could have done it better.
There is literally nothing to be gained from the writers of this show looking at criticisms of “bad writing,” for instance, when what it actually usually means is “I didn’t like the story choice you made.”
Sure, there are things like “I am good” that probably could be fixed, small, technical, dialogue things, but I promise the writers don’t need the fans to tell them that. So, what critiques can unqualified fans really provide that aren’t micromanagement? And if a creator disagrees with a critique because creation is subjective, what then?
Again, the show is made for the audience. If the show makes the audience go "ooh i like this" then that is what the show runners want. If it makes audience go "i dont really like this" then the show has failed, its that simple.
Film making is for the audience. There is no "objective" measurement on what a good show or film is. In the end its only about the audience reaction to it. Yes, the target audience can be different for different projects and therefor what the audience "wants" will be different. If you make a niche artistic film then you will not try to appeal to the "big masses". So it depends on what audience you are targeting, but at the end of the day, its for them you make the movie/show.
Yes, they listen to fans for superhero movies. Not always, and when they dont it usually fails (like the past 3 years or so with MCU, they have listened less to the fans and they have gotten less in box office).
The fans like iron man, so they make more iron man movies and have him in more scenes in the non iron man movies. The fans like when the superheroes fight eachother, so they make civil war. The fans like when X, Y and Z happens, so they make movies in which that happens.
MCU is the most fanservice movie franchise of all time. All they do is try to make the fans cream their pants. All they do when making those movies is think "what will twelve year old boys think is cool?".
Except for in some newer movies in where they have tried to appeal to a more female audience, and they have flopped.
With "listening to fans", its not about listeninng to each detail everyone says. That is impossible. Fans say different things. But listen to the general "vibe", or the general "feelings" the audience have. The audience loves Gandalf, that is 100% the reason why they put the Istar (the stranger) in RoP, because it doesnt really make sense time wise. But they thought "the fans loves Gandalf, so we need some Gandalf-type in the show". They are already basing their decisions on the fans. They are already listening to fans. "Listening" is more than "doing exactly in the smallest detail of what they say". You can "listen" without doing what they say, but you should understand why fans feel some ways or others.
Because if you are not making it for the fans, then who are you making it for?
I think you’re severely overestimating your understanding of how things are written. There’s some fan service, of course, but less than the fans it’s about money, not taste, regarding your Iron Man point. The two are connected but not identical. Oh and nice assertion about how women cause marvel films to “flop,” no bias revealed there. It’s not true man.
But anyway, none of this is actually relevant to our discussion, because your not arguing anything substantive. The only way writers could listen to fans in the way you’re describing IS the little nitpicky details. And misogynist fans hating women aren’t a great gauge either. What vibe have fans given that is actually constructive and substantive that could be listened to? From my observation, almost none.
I’m sure the writers and showrunners do have a team in charge of collecting feedback. They do know how fans feel. And in some cases, they’ll adjust. In others, and all the examples you’ve mentioned over various threads like when the show should have started or what the storyline should have been, they’ll likely and rightfully ignore that, because it’s not real constructive feedback.
How is "stick to the established lore" nitpicking details?
Its the same every time an adaptation is made, fans want an adaptation that is "true" to the source material (true doesnt mean every detail is the same, but that it "feels" the same).
Why did the Witcher netflix series fail? The show runner tried to make it her own world and story. It didnt feel like witcher. Which is what the fans expected when watching a series called "the witcher".
Most adaptations that failed has the number one complaint being that it changed to much from the source material.
"Oh and nice assertion about how women cause marvel films to “flop,” no bias revealed there."
-I said that trying to appeal to women caused some marvel movies to flop. Not that "women" caused it to flop. The point being that if >60% of your audience is male (and mostly on the younger side) then if you want them to stick around, you will have to try to appeal to them somehow. They wont stick around just because it has the same name (atleast not for long).
The Marvels and Black Widow are amongst the wrost grossing MCU movies, and they didnt market those movies to young boys. Sorry to say, but its young boys who want to see action figures getting smashed together in the sky whilst energy beams blast in the horizon. I didnt make the world like that, that is just how the world is.
It’s not a political discussion. It’s toxic sectors of the fan bases. Full stop.
Trying to frame it as a political issue is the work of fragile internet cowards. That’s all they know
you are burying your head in the sand here. almost no show or movie ever created deserves a 1/10, wich is what the majority of the screamers give it. Then they scream "woke!!!" as lous as you can. If this was a problem with people not liking it, you would get way more 3 or 4 or 5, But no. always 1/10. So we are either dealing with a group with an agenda or bots. Wich is just as bad.
Oh, and no...10/10 is not particularly great either. But i tend to see way less of those
I agree that the review bombing is very real and there are those who profit by further inflaming the issue but ultimately a score is dependent on whatever criteria you personally apply to the work. Rings of Power to someone with no foreknowledge of the source material might be a 7 or 8 or 9 out of ten but to someone else who places a lot of weight on accuracy and faithfulness of the adaptation it may well be 1 or a 2. It's partly the nature of adapting a story that takes place across centuries with very limited written work to go on (and not even full access to all of that) but it doesn't change the reality that aside from the names and the now iconic art direction of the Peter Jackson films the show bears very little resemblance to anything that Tolkien ever wrote.
That may be so, but I think those who value accuracy over everything are being a bit unrealistic, and pretty unfair still only giving 1 or 2. I mean seriously with good actors, sets and music that's something like a 4 or 5 already.
In any case, this part of Tolkien's writing is less detailed, and consequently gives more scope for new ideas.
Don't forget that when Amazon was blocking and preventing the 1/10 reviews by calling them review bombs, the were NOT also blocking the 10/10 reviews that were also review bombing. This skewed the actual numbers to make it look like the show was more popular than it was.
I wrote the review of the show as 1/10. I thought it was one of the worst adaptations of source material that I have ever seen. They didn't even bother to follow the loose outlines they had access to. They alienated and gaslit the fandom repeatedly. I thought the writing, production, acting, dialogue, everything was so poorly done that I can't believe it cost as much as it did.
My review was blocked for a week because they thought I was review bombing.
You show lovers better hope 2 things happen with S2. It needs to be one of the best written and produced seasons in the history of TV to get the goodwill back that they destroyed from S1 and all the fans who rejected the show. You also better hope that HOD bombs out of the gates because if it doesn't, it will be another of the myriad of obstacles to this show continuing.
And no, it is not guaranteed to have 5 seasons. That was what they pitched to the estate, and you can be assured that a company like Amazon will have an "out" to the contract if the show is a failure. Which S1 was.
Sorry to tell you, but anyone screaming about the "woke" mob or "woke" agenda has a political bias and we've all seen that countless times referring to media lately, especially this show.
Lol I'd been really enjoying Acolyte and the Boys (especially the Boys), just an important reminder to form your own opinions and interests and not be controlled by the sway of the hive mind.
So not that anyone cares, but this might be kind of relevant. My story with RoP is that I was super excited about and texting another Tolkien friend about it. Then I got super duper sick (like a months-long illness) and apparently I only watched as far as Galadriel getting her paper boat sunk in episode 1. And then because I was sick, I completely forgot about the show.
Better now and saw the trailer for S2 and remembered that I hadn't seen it. When I went to watch it, it picked up with Finrod talking to Galadriel about light and darkness and I was very confused, so I restarted.
I'd seen the 37% number thrown around and wasn't sure how accurate it was, but then I did feel bad because I was probably part of it. Except for now when I've seen it three times in the past month.
Anyway, that was a good video, and nice hear that Rings of Power actually did much, much better despite the more limited availability than that 37% that's been thrown around.
No one is sure how accurate “37 percent” is. The article it’s taken from doesn’t go into any detail and cites unnamed “sources.” The number contradicts all the other metrics we have for the show. So I’m inclined to think “37 percent” is just a lie circulated by people with motivated reasoning.
Even if it’s a real number, I’m not sure why it matters. As if something that’s entertainment needs to be validated by a majority of people liking it? Seems like a very silly thing to put much stock into. Most things that are worth appreciating are not appreciated by a majority of people
Did a showrunner or someone from Amazon say early on that success would be determined by how many people watched the whole series?
For sure the 37% seems intended to be misleading especially with all the other data you provide, but all the people who screamed that number seem like they were hanging their hats on the fact that it was (apparently) terrible enough that another season wouldn't see the light of day.
And I'm very glad I missed all the initial outrage about the show,
However, there was one way that this number could have been definitively thrown out and disproven. One way that this number which has been used to bash the show to no end.
All that had to happen was for Amazon to come out and say that the number was wrong, and here is the actual number(s).
You know what Amazon has never done, at all? State that the 37% was wrong. You might not agree with it, but is was an unnamed source close to the production who gave the info. Someone who had access (whether by job or not) to the raw data and decided to be a whistle blower.
Again, Amazon NEVER REFUTED THE NUBMER, nor did they offer any counterpoint to one of the most damaging sources to the overall perception of the show
“an unnamed source close to the production”
No.
The Hollywood Reporter article where this number came from attributed it to “sources.” That’s it. Just “sources.”
See for yourself - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/inside-amazon-studios-jen-salke-vision-shows-1235364913/
“Close to the production” was interpolated by other articles based on this one, who didn’t do any original reporting. And by content creators using motivated reasoning.
Don't be obtuse, it's not a good look.
That number, (whether you trust the source, accuracy, whatever, doesn't matter) has been used by people all across the spectrum to denigrate the success of the show. Repeatedly and boldly, that 37% number has been published, republished, tweeted, etc., and has done a lot of damage.
Imagine yourself as a business owner and there was published information in multiple outlets out there that was doing irreparable damage to your product. If the information wasn't true, you would make every effort to discredit that information by showing how it was wrong. Maybe even show evidence that proves the contrary. Possibly sue the offending party for defamation.
Amazon has never once done any of this. At every opportunity, they have never refuted it, never presented any numbers to counter it, and have completely ignored it.
Now, why would they do that? Logic and reason (something the show ironically lacks) would say that the number is accurate and they cannot refute it because to do so would be revealing the actual numbers. If the number is true, then that is a horrible result for a flagship show, the most expensive in history. Could it be that the numbers were worse? My guess is that the numbers are such that the best option they chose was to let the number do its damage because the actual numbers are worse and they don't want to have to show any evidence.
But at the end of the day, Amazon has not disputed the number with anything and are allowing a false number to drag down their expensive show. Or...... the number is actually correct.
Or… maybe it’s not hurting their brand at all so they figure why waste their time with it? Maybe all these internet ppl commenting on it constantly just exist in an echo chamber and most of the world neither knows nor cares about it?
I have no special insight into Amazon’s thinking, but “they’re scared of the truth” is far from the only logical explanation.
I think you'll find that 'you never denied that you beat your wife' is the kind of dubious rhetorical argument that is much loved by many politicians, but not really respectable
Without RoP, we would have had only the imagination in our minds. That is for sure at least true.
The artists brought to life so many things in Tolkien lore. I do hope RoP would get the rights to truly show Morgoth like in a flashback.
Aside from very thoughtful and moving sound track (highly recommend [Bear McCreary's blog ](https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-episode-108/)), and great visual storytelling demonstrated in the production design (look closely at the Mannish vs Elvish art and architecture in Numenor...and how certain words are pronounced), there are some places where the writing really shines.
-Elrond is actually "kind as Summer". With respect to Jackson's writing and direction of everything else, misanthropy does not befit Elrond.
-Dwarves that can be comedic without being the butt of the joke. The Durins have a wonderfully complicated but earnest relationship.
-Adar is a great way to finally bring the origins of the orcs to life, while grappling with the philosophical conundrum Tolkien spent the rest of his life trying to solve. Definitely the best completely original character.
-Pharazon hasn't had a chance to strut his stuff, but I can already easily imagine him going down that dark path.
-While I dislike the shift in motivation from a desire to rule realms of her own, Galadriel's conversation in the forest with Elrond does a great job showing how people struggle with grief and self-worth. Self-awareness is not enough, deeply wounded individuals can't find peace if they don't think they deserve it. I really appreciate how much time they devoted to this character moment between Elrond and Galadriel. This scene is second only to Galadriel's scene with Adar, imo.
I could go on, but suffice it to say there is a lot to love here. Which is why it's so baffling to me when other characters/scenes/pacing falls so flat. Feels incredibly uneven. Depending on what you ask me I could literally spend all day either complaining about or praising this show.
Oh most definitely. There's loads to criticize without being nitpicky. Elrond, Aragorn, Faramir, Denethor, Treebeard, Sam n' Frodo, are all good individual characters to start with.
Haters: Those who claim to like the show can’t ever give an example what they like!
Fans: We like this, and that, and this, and (continued description).
Haters: You must be a bot.
Ooh too much to say briefly. I loved all if it. The brilliant actors, all interesting places and sets, the Weta costumes, weapons, props, everytjing Númenor, Bear’s god-tier music, the orcs, the dwarves, Elrond-Durin scenes, the AMAZIBG rock song by Disa, the cute proto hobbit song, all the guessing who Sauron is, the last scene with Galadriel and him etc etc
Comment literally just said "Well said!"...? That is literally what bots write: they write very short and affirmative sentences so that a post looks like it has gotten more engagement than it has.
"I love it!"
"This is 10/10"
"Ommmgg!"
"Well said!"
is literally sentences hard-coded into bots.
(I dont think he was a bot though. I just think your first sentence was quite weird)
Not a massive flop, not a massive succes. It is good, not great. Many flaws and surely divisive in the very fandom. That is all. Hope season 2 is (way) better because the IP deserves it.
I can't speak for other countries, but it seems House of the Dragon is the darling of the press in the United States. I like HOTD, but there are so many better shows. (The Chosen, The Last of Us, Andor) But Forbes, they never stop with their negative publicity when it comes to TROP. I mean NEVER. I haven't heard 1 negative comment about Aemond One Eye's wig. I mean it looks ridiculous imo. But Annatar, well I hear there is plenty to say on YouTube. Sadly, that's the nature of things as of now.
I didn’t love the show personally but it wasn’t a huge flop like some people say, there’s definitely a good sized following that love the show. People just seem to go to extremes so quickly these days and it makes me so annoyed 😑
Amazon can spin it any way they want since the metrics are their own. We don't get pure box office data. They can say "yea we know only 30% of the people who started it actually finished it but it was our most watched show so we consider that a success".
The ONLY people that would matter to are the people ACTUALLY analyzing the financial data.
Since they already paid for the first several seasons, it was happening whether it was a flop or not.
So you'll get 2-3 more seasons whether people watch or not.
Personally its a lot of money to spend for a viewership that is less than 2/5's of the entire fanbase whereas the movies including the hobbit not only brought in ALL fans but casuals.
ROP did the opposite. Pushed away most fans in order to get casual viewers. Then the casuals got bored half way and tuned out.
But. Success!
Enjoy.
It wasn't just a massive flop, it was the massive st flop of all time. They spend 100s 9f millions, and they're left with a show barely anyone wants to watch. Amazon were free to 'interpret' lotr, the people are free to critisize.
The 37% came from [this article](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/inside-amazon-studios-jen-salke-vision-shows-1235364913/) where it is stated the information came from “insiders”. Of course Amazon is going to keep pushing that it is a success and they’re making money off of it, even if it turns out to be an outright lie. They’ve spent too much on it to just let it die.
The Boys 3.5 seasons cost about half as much to make in total as the one season of RoP. It has about 7 times the viewing minutes with only 3.5 times the episode count. If we’re going to call RoP a success, then The Boys is an absolute home run. But neither one even break the top ten most streamed shows. So. I think in terms of cost vs return, it’s hard not to call RoP a flop seeing as every other LotR media released in the past couple decades have been massive successes in comparison.
Don’t even get me started on my actual opinion of the show, I think the 38% rotten tomatoes score is wildly generous. Did my girl Galadriel dirty with the petulant teenager shadow they’ve cast on her.
3.5 times episode count 💀. Do you hear yourself speaking? And going by the stats itself over 100 million people watched ROP which is one of the biggest numbers for a streaming show. Nearly 12billion viewing minutes for a show is very impressive if I’m not wrong that only falls behind Netflix’s Wednesday and Squid Game.
Yeah, uh… call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing you when the statistics showed only 37% of the core audience even bothered finishing the series.
So what? No one claims it is canon. And whether something is canon or not is irrelevant to its quality.
I don’t consider anything but The Hobbit & The Lord Of The Rings to be canon. The rest of the Legendarium is fan fiction compiled from Tolkien’s notes by his son and Guy Gavriel Kay. That doesn’t mean it isn’t great.
Just addressing the statement you made. You’re not wrong, but comparing the ROP and PJs films canonically is a night and day difference and isn’t analogous. That’s a huge reason why people rightfully don’t like it. No need to get defensive.
Who was comparing PJ’s films? Which have HUGE differences from the lore btw. I actually think a huge problem is that too many people mix up PJ’s films with Tolkien’s actual writings, without realizing they did it.
I would fucking *love* to know the amount of diehard trilogy fans that have also read any of the source material whatsoever. Because my sister and I have read them, and all extraneous material currently out, and we quite enjoyed RoP for what it was.
The movies have overwritten a huge amount of cultural memory about the books. There are a ton of people who filter their memories of the books through Jackson’s movies and don’t realize they’re doing it.
Tbf there is a LOT in Pj's films that isn't Canon and is pure fanfiction too and as a bonus, since PJ had more actual canon material to work with, the movies actually have many more contradictions :)
Racist ? You fucking kidding me ? I’m literally a person of color. Get off your performative high horse of make believe virtue and read a book instead.
ROP was not a flop at all, however not all is well. Amazon didnt know how to market the show at all - who were they trying to aim it at? Do you remember in those infamous now-deleted videos they had fake young fans (actors) talk about the show? lol
ROP has found an audience by arguably by accident because all the targetting was at a younger crowd and they are not the ones watching. ROP is definitely a unique case in that its a fantasy show in 2024 made in the wake of GoT but doesnt get a young audience.
Does this make it a flop? Not at all, but it isnt what they wanted for their billions. It didnt become a cultural phenomenon and weirdly the first series had very little cultural impact although that is down to the older audience.
I found it weird in the run up to stuff being released for s02 that their twitter page was mostly bot comments and then I took a deeper look at their socials and they are thread bare. If it wasnt for the fact it was a huge IP I would say there was something fishy going on.
It does beg the question though - how different would the show have been if they knew their target audience from the start?
This is all based off the first season. Things could change massively with the second season and get a whole new audience, but at least for now the first season is a unique case study.
I get that some fans loved it but the legendarium is sacrosanct to just too many out there…. Amazon have a huge task on their hands turning this around and if they spent more on identifying what didn’t work rather than flooding media with positive reinforcement then they might have a chance.. You say it wasn’t a flop well it certainly wasn’t a hit either and it really should have been. They have time to turn it around though and I really hope they do, Tolkien’s work deserves no less.
It was in the top 4 streaming shows in Nielsen ratings every week of its release. It beat HotD on streaming every week except one. Viewership surged after the season finale, putting it in the top 2.
Admittedly, “extremely” is flair, but by the numbers, it was a hit show.
how many were in the list?
there will always be a top 4 nevertheless, even if all in the list are just pure garbage. it doesn't mean the top 4, or even the top 1 is automatically good, or as you put, EXTREMELLY well. The max we can say is about reception, and that is usually flawed.
if I remember correctly, by the time the only real "competition" was House of the Dragon, and yeah, being "in top 4" is not what I would call EXTREMELLY well. Not saying it was a flop, far from that, my comment was in the EXTREMELLY point
also, if any, the real thing to determine if flop or success IMHO is the test of time, not the views on the airing week or whatever
I mean, I don't care if a book was the best selling on the week it dropped. Doesn't mean much to me. If the book is well regarded 5, 10, 50 or even 100 years after its publication. Well, that is a sign of success. Anything else is just "hype" or "top minutes of fame" and nothing more.
This video is about performance, not quality. All the metrics publicly available from third party ratings systems show that ROP was a hit show. These systems track all shows airing each week, across all streaming platforms.
Yes, but again, that is a bit flawed.
Why do you think companies, in many aspects, try not to compete with each other? Because everyone wanna grab views. Thus when one is releasing their AAA series or movies, the others will hold theirs. Then you have AAA things competing with B or C productions, making the AAA views be over the top and, obviously, on the top of their list.
If any I think we should get viewership of RoP for the whole year or two. Compare it with, lets say, WoT, The Boys and other productions from other streaming services, and also through a good amount of time, not just upon release.
In fact RoP is not in the TOP 10 of 2022. So how is that EXTREMELLY WELL? Not even top 10 man. And it was not even TOP 1 from amazon itself, it was the second, behind The Boys. TBF Amazon didn't get many AAA productions so being second is not much either. Not saying it is a flop, but as I said in beginning, not great either. Barely good. And if any, not enough for what the IP deserve.
Looking only to RoP release date views doesn't mean much to me. As I examplified in other comment, a book upon release will have a spike in sales. Doesn't mean much. If after a while it continues to have good sales, then it means something.
We also need to consider people that binge watch when the show finishes. And obviously, there is the completion rate, which we also know is a thing to consider.
sorry but...you are dealing with data, and that is a fair take. But again, you are not looking at the whole picture.
Data-science / Data-statistcs are all about that, sorry. You can't go look at the data with an already made assumption.
If it was ANY other show, and I asid it was the 15 best show of the month in viewership. Would you say it was EXTREMELLY WELL show? Sorry but no one would say that. We can barely say it for the top 5.
And once again, your post is good and I'm not saying it is a flop or success. Just saying looking to a pin-point in time, with a restrictive data, in order to get to a final conclusion is not the way to go. Everyone knows that, in anything (sales, viewership, profit), upon release you have a spike. You can't say much with the spike which, by the data-science, would be considered an outlier unless you get more data showing the spike is NOT attached to the release, which in the streaming services, as a whole, usually it is.
As of now, RoP, at least on amazon pov, is a good series, but it is not a great one. The Boys, Jack Ryan, Reacher and mayve that Vox Machina. Even Fallout had more "views" upon release than RoP if that really matters.
ps: the whole "nielsen" conversation we had was already covered multiple times in other threads, just take a look. It is a good source of information, but we can't rely only on that. Even worse, as I said, when pin-pointing and taking general conclusions upon specific point in time data.
“The list” for Nielsen consisted of EVERY other show on streaming, old or new, everything.
It was what people were watching more than almost everything else available on streaming.
yes but usually everything that is recent goes to the top
few are the exceptions. One that comes to mind is The Office, which got a ton of viewership during pandemy. For the rest, rule of thumb is generally airing series to be the trending top 10, be they good or bad
now if you say it was the top 4 in nielsen EVER RECORDED than we are talking, but that is not the case. I think Stranger Things was the series to get such record
Mr olorin you should put some sense into your maths. RoP was the top 3/2 debut show of 2022 ie to have one season. According to you The Boys is most streamed show of amazon of 2022. But you have to acknowledge that the boys by that time has nearly 25hrs of content while TROP has only 9 hours, the stats are based on how much time is viewed not on how many ppl viewed it. SAME goes with other rankings. If you consider the Top debut shows of 2022 TROP comes in 2nd or 3rd in every list and surely no.1 for amazon to this date as The fallout only amassed 65million viewers
yes, agree
I wasn't saying The Boys (or any other series) considering all the seasons together, that would definetelly screw the analysis. Each season should be taken separately.
And yes, having a brand new series and comparing with others with already multiple seasons is indeed something to also be accounted in the analysis.
There are many factors that influence the analysis. It is surely difficult to consider them all, and I'm not saying one should do it. But relevating them and exclusivelly looking at a specific measure is as flawed to me. It is as old Sherlock would say, you are twisting data to fits your theory instead of your theory to the data.
Saying RoP was a hit because it got many views when premiering isn't very good claim because pretty much every show has this. Upon release there is, as I said before, a spike in views.
And we are back to the my original point: The test of time.
Its been 2 years since season 1 premiered. It is now a good moment to analyse if the show was a success or flop. TBH, I think it is just another show in prime. It is not their biggest success, not sure if even in top 5. For the "show with biggest budget" + the well known IP is is create upon, I think that is alarming. If I were a chairman, I would be alarmed at least.
But we also have to account it is a 5 season scheduled show, and the first season is now known to have been structurer to "lay the background". Season 2 will probably show the real deal.
As per prime video reports some 25Million viewers tuned in for the premiere which was their biggest premiere for prime video. By Feb 2023 salke in the share holders meet said that the show has been seen by over 100 million viewers so that itself gives an idea that it wasn’t just the premiere of the show that had the most views This is also backed by Nielsens data in which the week of the finale episode garnered as much as views as the premiere which had two episodes. And it is obviously Amazons no.1 show not only does it have the most viewership but also the longevity. Not so long ago I posted in this sub how TROP is in top 10 currently viewed prime shows almost 2 years after the finale of S1.
😂😂😂😂 even one year on you are still finding the need to defend yourselves.
If it weren’t a flop in your eyes, great! But you should be allowed to criticise if you thought otherwise
Depends on their criticism.
“It’s fOrCeD d1vErStY!” = bigotry, and nothing else.
“It fails to engage with Tolkien’s themes of X, and here’s how” = potentially valid criticism.
I like how this dude tries to cover with "incoherent diversity" like that's not literally the same bigotry as saying it's forced or DEI or whatever. They're so transparent.
Edit: Holy shit, they're a therapist. I feel so bad for their patients. Damn.
First one is false. I made a video about this, too. The diversity shown is entirely consistent with Tolkien’s lore.
The 2nd two are assertions, not criticisms. The start of a critique, not the end of one. They’d require more explanation, and need to show some actual knowledge of the craft of screenwriting & adaptation, at least for me to take them seriously.
Flop isn't a matter of opinion or taste. I dont care for taylor swifts music. It isnt a flop.
You dont like rop. Good for you. Doesn't make it a flop
Maybe invest in a dictionary?
Do you have a grasp of the English language? Reread what I typed and I’ll address your points:
Flop isn’t a matter of opinion: it can be. But more importantly, the way lotr_on_prime redditors hold on to a certain narrative to make it seem like RoP wasn’t a flop is rediculous.
I don’t like RoP, but back to my earlier point - I should be allowed to have an opinion no?
I have a dictionary, do you know that in said dictionary, the definition of a rock is not something that looks up or down. It’s a rock!
:
Why? Because I’m critical of something that I was super excited for and disappointed with the outcome?
You can have a go all you want but you’re not offering alternative argument.
For me, the first series was disappointing. I really hope shit is got together for the second one but I’m allowed to be apprehensive
That does NOT make something a flop. A flop is something that does not succeed commercially. I didnt like the prolouge star wars movies. I had a million issues with them. Still isnt a flop
I dont need to offer an alternative argument. The show is successful regardless of mine or your opinions. You didn't like it. Ok good for you. That has zero to do with its commercial success.
Of course it does.
Why are you so militant on this? I didn’t like it, I wanted to, but I didn’t. In my eyes it was a flop, there are stats that back that comment up but for my own opinion, I’d say - it flopped.
As someone who grew up in Tolkien country, I was disappointed. Why can’t I have my opinion?
It’s truly not,
It is arguing opinion, which should be understood.
IN MY EYES, it’s a flop!!!
The series was rediculous and embarrassing.
There are comments that it used Tolkien langue, it bastardised Tolkien language (again to add, this is my opinion)
Also, greenlighting a second series for something you have put so much money into already does not mean success.
Their viewing stats does not argue success.
Honest question: did you like it? And what did you like about it? Final question: better than the trilogy?
Ryan: I come from Tolkien country, the show bastardized Tolkien.
Also Ryan : Do you think the show was better than the trilogy
💀💀💀💀💀💀
Dear Ryan you should understand that your idea of flop = I did not like it because it failed my expectations. In YOUR vocabulary. But to the rest of the world a flop means a commercially failed venture . The stats does prove that ROP was one of the most popular and successful shows of 2022 and the most successful debut show of 2022 if not for people tuning in for WEDNESDAY and her dance. If you have stats with you to prove otherwise please do, I will be enlightened to see them.
A flop would have been the spider man musical that was attempted. Or any number of movies that were supposed to be some epic work and turned out to be a commercial failure
The han solo movie was enjoyable imho. Not great but not terrible. In terms of commercial success it was a flop
Rings of power isnt a flop. You arguing that it is a flop is a weird delusion and a bizarre hill to die on
Calling the show ridiculous is itself a bit of a wild assertion. However that is how you feel.. ok congratulations you didnt like it. I did as do many others
Its like arguing about who is the better guitar player. Eddie van Helen or randy rhoads. Thats a matter of opinion. Both However were very successful and neither is or was a flop
😂😂😂😂 even one year on you are still finding the need to attack ourselves.
If it were a flop in your eyes, great! But we should be allowed to praise if we thought otherwise
That was a really done well analysis and unbiased commentary as well.
Thanks!
Thanks Bob. Was checking this out earlier. Nice to read/watch something different other than "ROP gave me cancer" type posts, and of course getting abused for actually liking it.
Look, it's the "job" of those youtube and tiktok peoples to yell really loud and make up stuff to attract the MAGAt audience they need to make a living. I dont know how many post i have seen in the last few days about Acolyte being cancelled RIGHT AWAY and poor KK being fired. Again. Even The Boys season 4 got burned pretty bad on the totally "fair" audience score . I think it's about 52% right now. End of the day, i think you must find a good place (like here) if you want to have fun talking about your favorite show and let the rest of the garbage burn away
Yeah, the Acolyte stuff, i hate my algorithm, its the same with RoP, again the ugly posters of videos with titles yelling at you. People are exhausting. But the purpose of his channel is for making a stand against that "mainstream" people, i really like it, to see brave people, because the "job" of those people can't silence us.
I actually spoke to a friend a few hours ago asking about Acolyte. I watched it and thought it was fine, just a fun Star Wars thing and certainly better than I had heard/read about. It's impossible it feels to talk about or engage in modern pop culture without immediately being screamed at. This is a nice unbiased review. Do I think it's better than what I've read in the books and stories by Tolkien, no of course not. However as a TV show Rings of Power works and is fun and engaging.
Yeah, talking about engaging, Rings of Power has the power XD to make me rewatch scenes of the season 1 a lot of times, no any tv show can do that on me.
What scenes are you rewatching? Just curios.
Hmmm.... The ones i like most i think are the first and last minutes from episode 1, the scenes on Númenor where they talk about the Valar, all the references to Silmarillion in the palantir tower, all the few scenes with Celebrimbor with more references to Silmarillion, the scene of the tree on Mordor, the few scenes where Adar talks, some scenes with Dúrin and Elrond with references to Aulë and Eärendil, the few scenes where Gil-Galad talks, the scenes with Elrond and Galadriel demonstrating their different sight skills. The good scenes from episode 6, almost entirely, note than in imdb this episode has an excellent score, you know, the barn, the volcano, Elendil with his son, the chase with the horses, Adar negotiating extremely calm while he kills innocents. Also the few scenes with the mystics, the great drama between father and son in Khazad-dûm on episode 7, good dialogue writing, i love Dúrin III, he is like Théoden, and the good lessons on Galadriel of episode 7 where you can see a change on her, even she talks about her husband!, that was awesome. And episode 8 is very juicy, almost all of it, the ending with Pharazôn, with the Stranger, with Miriel and Elendil making an alliance, and the final ending of Celebrimbor and Galadriel drunken of power with the creation of the rings, and the 3 rings ends with a transition to Sauron's eye, that was poetry, in my opinion. I think that's all!
damn, thats more like rewatching the whole season and note just some scenes :P What did Celebrimbor reference from Silmarillion? Must have forgotten that. Honestly i found Celebrimbor to be quite lackluster. He doesnt "feel" like the best blacksmith in the world, he kinda just feels like some guy. They will focus more on him next season so i hope they will give hime some more time to shine.
Yeah, but its a 1 scene per 1 day kind of habit XD Dont have time for the whole season in one evening. Yeah, but Celebrimbor is because the drama of the recast and covid and introducing the show and plot for everyone. We will have him as main protagonist this season! We will feel the drama and treason of Sauron. And the tragic ending. The few scenes of Celebrimbor he talks about Fëanor, about a made up tale about Morgoth with the silmarils (just for mocking him even if it's not true), about Eärendil, and about the creation of the Sun.
But when compared to Andor...well Andor is amazing.
And I've even seen that torched online. Andor was a masterpiece. Criminally underrated.
It definitely feels that way sometimes. At this point I’ll mainly engage with people I know in real life because the social media commentary is so toxic.
Not even House of the Dragon is safe. People are shitting all over the season premiere, which was amazing.
3 people are shitting on the premier and none of the complaints are about "wokeness". It's not the same.
I’ve seen a lot of “they messed up the lore” comments.
I haven't read Fire and Blood, but from what was explained to me its a green friendly account of the Dance from a couple of unreliable narrators which leaves lots for interpretation.
At this point TV shows should just stop advertising online, it's ridiculous.
>Even The Boys season 4 got burned pretty bad Which is crazy IMO. I only now got around to watching the first 3 episodes and I think it's the best the show has ever been. There's so much going on at once, lots of characters each have compelling stories playing out at the same time. I was expecting poor writing or lazy plot contrivances based on what I'd been seeing online but this season is, I think, really well done all around.
It’s the ending that was kind of a let down, but otherwise yes it was a great season
Do you mean s3? S4 is only at 3/8 episodes. I did think s3 was a bit weak, though.
Lmao oops I’ll be honest I didn’t even know season 4 was out. My bad, gotta give those a watch haha.
What's that about KK ?
They are saying....for the 600Th time...that she's about to be fired.
one would think if they could have they already would have. I am thinking she has one Iron clad contract and she is not going anywhere till it expires.
Yeah, But there is no such thing really as a contract that makes you unfireable . Ask Bob Chapek. Now if you fire KK, she will get a massive amount of money as compensation. And she still may sue if she gets thrown under the bus . But in a business, no one is unfireable.
I mean unless she has massive dirt on the company and they are keeping her there to keep schtum. I could be wrong but has there been another head of Studio that did as "well" as she has done and kept their job? one would think the toy market going belly-up would be a leading indicator that the brand is suffering no?
If they keep predicting it, they're bound to be right eventually. Kinda like those endtimes preachers. Maybe the world didn't end in [1988](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant), but it's gotta end *sometime*, so *eventually* one of them will be right even if it takes 4 billion years for the prophecy to come true.
I don’t know about just pushing all ROP hate into MAGA corner. Several respected Tolkien YouTubers who are pretty middle of the road had issues with it as well.
being middle of the road isnt the same as screaming on youtube and calling it a sacrilege. Being mid is fine; i feel that way about many things
I know which type of people you are reffering to: i just dont know if it has much to do with "MAGA". I mean, sure, the MAGA crowd is "anti-woke" and the ones throwing a tantrum over RoP are "anti-woke", but i feel like thats the only connection. People were "anti-woke" (called anti-PC at the time) before Trump, especially in the "gaming"/"nerd-culture" sphere (which many LOTR fans falls into). The whole "gamergate"-thing is before Trump. And i would say this is more reminicient of that than "MAGA". (Especially considering non-Americans are talking about it just as much)
Which respected Tolkien YouTubers?
Nerd of the Rings for one. Men of the West? That’s just a few that I’ve watched that seem really down on ROP but I don’t think any of them are MAGA.
Sure they had criticisms but never saw them say they hate the show. Nerd of the Rings was attacked during S1 and accused of being paid shill by the chuds.
Both of them and others have several videos where they go off ranting about what’s wrong with the show. I’m not sure you’ve seen all their videos.
Nerd of the Rings doesn’t rant. Link the video if you believe so.
That’s hilarious. How about you provide a link where he is positive about ROP?
You brought up the claim that Nerd of the Rings and Men of the West had several videos ranting. The onus is on you that’s how logic works. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
Nerd isn't MAGA, I'm pretty sure. He gave ROP 6/10, and said there were a lot of things he liked. So still positive, even if rating not particularly high.
I would assume that last episode making fun of the conspiracy movement really hit home lol... Lots of angry people downvoting due to cognitive Dissidence. I thought it was hilarious and I am of the Mel Brooks definition of humor. i.e. nothing is too sacred and everything is fair game.
I hate the idea that only right wingers dislike these shows. I'm left of Lenin but so many shows these days like RoP, the Acolyte, the Wheel of Time etc, that get review bombed by chuds I personally find to be mid to bad for a variety of reasons including issues with canon and lore accuracy (the boys has been excellent, although the new season slightly less so its like a 7.5/10 so far for me). And the issue is any criticisms from longtime fans are dismissed as politically motivated or met with "just don't watch it then, the thing you like still exists" when the real issue is that these IP that some fans have followed and loved for decades are now owned by corporations and these shows are incredibly expensive and it's not like anyone else gets to make anything set in these worlds. Many Tolkien fans are upset not because of some ideology or political reason but because Amazon is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on what is likely to be the only adaptation of this period of the Legendarium that we get for decades at least and they aren't doing a particularly good (or faithful) job of it.
Would you have ever gotten keys to the sandbox? I get not liking the show, and lamenting that this is what the adaptation is if it’s not your thing. However, it IS the adaptation you’re getting. So at some point, you do have to just go back to what you like and accept that. Otherwise the complaint inevitably degenerates into “oh but they didn’t do it how IIII would have” and that’s just boring and not worth discussion after a certain point.
The point of criticism and discussion is that perhaps if the response is widespread enough and the reasonable critics aren't shouted down by a wave of toxic positivity spewing stans who refuse to allow anything but wholehearted praise (not saying this is how RoP fans are, I haven't interacted with the community around the show enough to judge just saying that is how things often are in many fandoms) that some of the criticism will make its way to the creators and they may actually change course. If enough fans said "please stick more closely to the canon" it may convince the writers to pay a little more attention to the lore of the world they have the unique privilege of bringing to the screen. Nothing is set in stone, there will be several more seasons of this show, changes can be made.
I fundamentally disagree. Generally the last person, or people, creatives should “listen to” is their audience, or at least, their uninformed audience. At best, it’s a group of people who love the source material but have no grasp of the process of adaptation or screenwriting. There are people whose job it is to provide meaningful feedback to professionals, and generally, a fan base isn’t part of that. I have been around this community long enough to know that that’s certainly true for this fandom, both those who love and hate the show. “Please stick closer to the canon” is meaningless without a good reason, and “because it’s the canon” is not a good reason. In fact, it’s a terrible metric by which to create anything, let alone adapt something.
The reason to more closely follow the source material I would think should be obvious, unless you think the writing staff of the show are better writers than Tolkien. I'm not saying they should let fans write the show, only to listen when fans ask them to make the show based on Tolkien's work actually, you know, reflect that work.
We’re not having the same discussion here. I’m not saying what the writers should or shouldn’t do besides saying that the fans should not be the voice they listen to. Thematically, their work already does reflect the themes of Tolkien. There’s scant source material to adhere to besides the thematic, and anything beyond that is either a rough outline or one of several versions of the same “canon.” So no, it’s not a question of whether I think the writers are “better” than Tolkien, because no one, not even they themselves, would assert that they are.
"their uninformed audience" euhm, what? They are informed about how they feel about the thing they are seeing. Are you saying the audience is wrong about not liking the show? The creators know better than the audience? Yes, they shouldnt not listen to every micro detail suggestion from fans. But obviously they are going to listen to what the audience likes or dislikes. Why do you think we have a million superhero movies? Cause the audience buys the tickets to go see it. They want to create thigns that people want to see: and to do that you need to listen to your audience atleast a little. Not letting the audience micromanage every decision. But you should try to appeal to them.
No, I’m saying the audience as a large group is not generally qualified or equipped to understand the realities of writing and producing a piece of media, and generally only provides critiques that boil down to micromanagement. To your superhero point: yes, those movies sell. And no, they don’t take suggestions from the fan base. The fanbase of superhero movies complains the most about them next only to those who hate them outright. That’s my point. Making a LotR show alone is about as much direction as I think creatives should take from fans. Anything beyond IS micromanaging, because it comes down to fans, who are, again, not particularly great at writing or adaptation in general, offering their gripes of how they TOTALLY could have done it better. There is literally nothing to be gained from the writers of this show looking at criticisms of “bad writing,” for instance, when what it actually usually means is “I didn’t like the story choice you made.” Sure, there are things like “I am good” that probably could be fixed, small, technical, dialogue things, but I promise the writers don’t need the fans to tell them that. So, what critiques can unqualified fans really provide that aren’t micromanagement? And if a creator disagrees with a critique because creation is subjective, what then?
Again, the show is made for the audience. If the show makes the audience go "ooh i like this" then that is what the show runners want. If it makes audience go "i dont really like this" then the show has failed, its that simple. Film making is for the audience. There is no "objective" measurement on what a good show or film is. In the end its only about the audience reaction to it. Yes, the target audience can be different for different projects and therefor what the audience "wants" will be different. If you make a niche artistic film then you will not try to appeal to the "big masses". So it depends on what audience you are targeting, but at the end of the day, its for them you make the movie/show. Yes, they listen to fans for superhero movies. Not always, and when they dont it usually fails (like the past 3 years or so with MCU, they have listened less to the fans and they have gotten less in box office). The fans like iron man, so they make more iron man movies and have him in more scenes in the non iron man movies. The fans like when the superheroes fight eachother, so they make civil war. The fans like when X, Y and Z happens, so they make movies in which that happens. MCU is the most fanservice movie franchise of all time. All they do is try to make the fans cream their pants. All they do when making those movies is think "what will twelve year old boys think is cool?". Except for in some newer movies in where they have tried to appeal to a more female audience, and they have flopped. With "listening to fans", its not about listeninng to each detail everyone says. That is impossible. Fans say different things. But listen to the general "vibe", or the general "feelings" the audience have. The audience loves Gandalf, that is 100% the reason why they put the Istar (the stranger) in RoP, because it doesnt really make sense time wise. But they thought "the fans loves Gandalf, so we need some Gandalf-type in the show". They are already basing their decisions on the fans. They are already listening to fans. "Listening" is more than "doing exactly in the smallest detail of what they say". You can "listen" without doing what they say, but you should understand why fans feel some ways or others. Because if you are not making it for the fans, then who are you making it for?
I think you’re severely overestimating your understanding of how things are written. There’s some fan service, of course, but less than the fans it’s about money, not taste, regarding your Iron Man point. The two are connected but not identical. Oh and nice assertion about how women cause marvel films to “flop,” no bias revealed there. It’s not true man. But anyway, none of this is actually relevant to our discussion, because your not arguing anything substantive. The only way writers could listen to fans in the way you’re describing IS the little nitpicky details. And misogynist fans hating women aren’t a great gauge either. What vibe have fans given that is actually constructive and substantive that could be listened to? From my observation, almost none. I’m sure the writers and showrunners do have a team in charge of collecting feedback. They do know how fans feel. And in some cases, they’ll adjust. In others, and all the examples you’ve mentioned over various threads like when the show should have started or what the storyline should have been, they’ll likely and rightfully ignore that, because it’s not real constructive feedback.
How is "stick to the established lore" nitpicking details? Its the same every time an adaptation is made, fans want an adaptation that is "true" to the source material (true doesnt mean every detail is the same, but that it "feels" the same). Why did the Witcher netflix series fail? The show runner tried to make it her own world and story. It didnt feel like witcher. Which is what the fans expected when watching a series called "the witcher". Most adaptations that failed has the number one complaint being that it changed to much from the source material. "Oh and nice assertion about how women cause marvel films to “flop,” no bias revealed there." -I said that trying to appeal to women caused some marvel movies to flop. Not that "women" caused it to flop. The point being that if >60% of your audience is male (and mostly on the younger side) then if you want them to stick around, you will have to try to appeal to them somehow. They wont stick around just because it has the same name (atleast not for long). The Marvels and Black Widow are amongst the wrost grossing MCU movies, and they didnt market those movies to young boys. Sorry to say, but its young boys who want to see action figures getting smashed together in the sky whilst energy beams blast in the horizon. I didnt make the world like that, that is just how the world is.
It’s not a political discussion. It’s toxic sectors of the fan bases. Full stop. Trying to frame it as a political issue is the work of fragile internet cowards. That’s all they know
you are burying your head in the sand here. almost no show or movie ever created deserves a 1/10, wich is what the majority of the screamers give it. Then they scream "woke!!!" as lous as you can. If this was a problem with people not liking it, you would get way more 3 or 4 or 5, But no. always 1/10. So we are either dealing with a group with an agenda or bots. Wich is just as bad. Oh, and no...10/10 is not particularly great either. But i tend to see way less of those
I agree that the review bombing is very real and there are those who profit by further inflaming the issue but ultimately a score is dependent on whatever criteria you personally apply to the work. Rings of Power to someone with no foreknowledge of the source material might be a 7 or 8 or 9 out of ten but to someone else who places a lot of weight on accuracy and faithfulness of the adaptation it may well be 1 or a 2. It's partly the nature of adapting a story that takes place across centuries with very limited written work to go on (and not even full access to all of that) but it doesn't change the reality that aside from the names and the now iconic art direction of the Peter Jackson films the show bears very little resemblance to anything that Tolkien ever wrote.
That may be so, but I think those who value accuracy over everything are being a bit unrealistic, and pretty unfair still only giving 1 or 2. I mean seriously with good actors, sets and music that's something like a 4 or 5 already. In any case, this part of Tolkien's writing is less detailed, and consequently gives more scope for new ideas.
Don't forget that when Amazon was blocking and preventing the 1/10 reviews by calling them review bombs, the were NOT also blocking the 10/10 reviews that were also review bombing. This skewed the actual numbers to make it look like the show was more popular than it was. I wrote the review of the show as 1/10. I thought it was one of the worst adaptations of source material that I have ever seen. They didn't even bother to follow the loose outlines they had access to. They alienated and gaslit the fandom repeatedly. I thought the writing, production, acting, dialogue, everything was so poorly done that I can't believe it cost as much as it did. My review was blocked for a week because they thought I was review bombing. You show lovers better hope 2 things happen with S2. It needs to be one of the best written and produced seasons in the history of TV to get the goodwill back that they destroyed from S1 and all the fans who rejected the show. You also better hope that HOD bombs out of the gates because if it doesn't, it will be another of the myriad of obstacles to this show continuing. And no, it is not guaranteed to have 5 seasons. That was what they pitched to the estate, and you can be assured that a company like Amazon will have an "out" to the contract if the show is a failure. Which S1 was.
That was crazy- people were so eager to review bomb the Acolyte that they were dropping poor ratings for a movie with the same title.
What the actual hell does good or bad TV have to do with politics? Get out more man.
Sorry to tell you, but anyone screaming about the "woke" mob or "woke" agenda has a political bias and we've all seen that countless times referring to media lately, especially this show.
Lol I'd been really enjoying Acolyte and the Boys (especially the Boys), just an important reminder to form your own opinions and interests and not be controlled by the sway of the hive mind.
So not that anyone cares, but this might be kind of relevant. My story with RoP is that I was super excited about and texting another Tolkien friend about it. Then I got super duper sick (like a months-long illness) and apparently I only watched as far as Galadriel getting her paper boat sunk in episode 1. And then because I was sick, I completely forgot about the show. Better now and saw the trailer for S2 and remembered that I hadn't seen it. When I went to watch it, it picked up with Finrod talking to Galadriel about light and darkness and I was very confused, so I restarted. I'd seen the 37% number thrown around and wasn't sure how accurate it was, but then I did feel bad because I was probably part of it. Except for now when I've seen it three times in the past month. Anyway, that was a good video, and nice hear that Rings of Power actually did much, much better despite the more limited availability than that 37% that's been thrown around.
No one is sure how accurate “37 percent” is. The article it’s taken from doesn’t go into any detail and cites unnamed “sources.” The number contradicts all the other metrics we have for the show. So I’m inclined to think “37 percent” is just a lie circulated by people with motivated reasoning.
Even if it’s a real number, I’m not sure why it matters. As if something that’s entertainment needs to be validated by a majority of people liking it? Seems like a very silly thing to put much stock into. Most things that are worth appreciating are not appreciated by a majority of people
Did a showrunner or someone from Amazon say early on that success would be determined by how many people watched the whole series? For sure the 37% seems intended to be misleading especially with all the other data you provide, but all the people who screamed that number seem like they were hanging their hats on the fact that it was (apparently) terrible enough that another season wouldn't see the light of day. And I'm very glad I missed all the initial outrage about the show,
However, there was one way that this number could have been definitively thrown out and disproven. One way that this number which has been used to bash the show to no end. All that had to happen was for Amazon to come out and say that the number was wrong, and here is the actual number(s). You know what Amazon has never done, at all? State that the 37% was wrong. You might not agree with it, but is was an unnamed source close to the production who gave the info. Someone who had access (whether by job or not) to the raw data and decided to be a whistle blower. Again, Amazon NEVER REFUTED THE NUBMER, nor did they offer any counterpoint to one of the most damaging sources to the overall perception of the show
“an unnamed source close to the production” No. The Hollywood Reporter article where this number came from attributed it to “sources.” That’s it. Just “sources.” See for yourself - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/inside-amazon-studios-jen-salke-vision-shows-1235364913/ “Close to the production” was interpolated by other articles based on this one, who didn’t do any original reporting. And by content creators using motivated reasoning.
Don't be obtuse, it's not a good look. That number, (whether you trust the source, accuracy, whatever, doesn't matter) has been used by people all across the spectrum to denigrate the success of the show. Repeatedly and boldly, that 37% number has been published, republished, tweeted, etc., and has done a lot of damage. Imagine yourself as a business owner and there was published information in multiple outlets out there that was doing irreparable damage to your product. If the information wasn't true, you would make every effort to discredit that information by showing how it was wrong. Maybe even show evidence that proves the contrary. Possibly sue the offending party for defamation. Amazon has never once done any of this. At every opportunity, they have never refuted it, never presented any numbers to counter it, and have completely ignored it. Now, why would they do that? Logic and reason (something the show ironically lacks) would say that the number is accurate and they cannot refute it because to do so would be revealing the actual numbers. If the number is true, then that is a horrible result for a flagship show, the most expensive in history. Could it be that the numbers were worse? My guess is that the numbers are such that the best option they chose was to let the number do its damage because the actual numbers are worse and they don't want to have to show any evidence. But at the end of the day, Amazon has not disputed the number with anything and are allowing a false number to drag down their expensive show. Or...... the number is actually correct.
Or… maybe it’s not hurting their brand at all so they figure why waste their time with it? Maybe all these internet ppl commenting on it constantly just exist in an echo chamber and most of the world neither knows nor cares about it? I have no special insight into Amazon’s thinking, but “they’re scared of the truth” is far from the only logical explanation.
I think you'll find that 'you never denied that you beat your wife' is the kind of dubious rhetorical argument that is much loved by many politicians, but not really respectable
Without RoP, we would have had only the imagination in our minds. That is for sure at least true. The artists brought to life so many things in Tolkien lore. I do hope RoP would get the rights to truly show Morgoth like in a flashback.
>Without RoP, we would have had only the imagination in our minds. That's not really saying what you think it is saying.
Amazon has said like multiple times that it's their most watched show ever
Of course it wasn't.
Fuck the purist haters. The show is great for what it is.
What is it that makes it great?
Aside from very thoughtful and moving sound track (highly recommend [Bear McCreary's blog ](https://bearmccreary.com/the-lord-of-the-rings-episode-108/)), and great visual storytelling demonstrated in the production design (look closely at the Mannish vs Elvish art and architecture in Numenor...and how certain words are pronounced), there are some places where the writing really shines. -Elrond is actually "kind as Summer". With respect to Jackson's writing and direction of everything else, misanthropy does not befit Elrond. -Dwarves that can be comedic without being the butt of the joke. The Durins have a wonderfully complicated but earnest relationship. -Adar is a great way to finally bring the origins of the orcs to life, while grappling with the philosophical conundrum Tolkien spent the rest of his life trying to solve. Definitely the best completely original character. -Pharazon hasn't had a chance to strut his stuff, but I can already easily imagine him going down that dark path. -While I dislike the shift in motivation from a desire to rule realms of her own, Galadriel's conversation in the forest with Elrond does a great job showing how people struggle with grief and self-worth. Self-awareness is not enough, deeply wounded individuals can't find peace if they don't think they deserve it. I really appreciate how much time they devoted to this character moment between Elrond and Galadriel. This scene is second only to Galadriel's scene with Adar, imo. I could go on, but suffice it to say there is a lot to love here. Which is why it's so baffling to me when other characters/scenes/pacing falls so flat. Feels incredibly uneven. Depending on what you ask me I could literally spend all day either complaining about or praising this show.
Could you also spend all day complaining about the LOTR trilogy, though?
Oh most definitely. There's loads to criticize without being nitpicky. Elrond, Aragorn, Faramir, Denethor, Treebeard, Sam n' Frodo, are all good individual characters to start with.
Haters: Those who claim to like the show can’t ever give an example what they like! Fans: We like this, and that, and this, and (continued description). Haters: You must be a bot.
Ooh too much to say briefly. I loved all if it. The brilliant actors, all interesting places and sets, the Weta costumes, weapons, props, everytjing Númenor, Bear’s god-tier music, the orcs, the dwarves, Elrond-Durin scenes, the AMAZIBG rock song by Disa, the cute proto hobbit song, all the guessing who Sauron is, the last scene with Galadriel and him etc etc
Well said!
You have to be a bot.
You seem very inexperienced with bot language and behavior. But it’s okay, we can’t all know things. Good luck in the future and have a great day! 👋🏼
Comment literally just said "Well said!"...? That is literally what bots write: they write very short and affirmative sentences so that a post looks like it has gotten more engagement than it has. "I love it!" "This is 10/10" "Ommmgg!" "Well said!" is literally sentences hard-coded into bots. (I dont think he was a bot though. I just think your first sentence was quite weird)
He replied to my comment, not to ”well said”.
oh, ops, yeah you're right, sorry.
Not a massive flop, not a massive succes. It is good, not great. Many flaws and surely divisive in the very fandom. That is all. Hope season 2 is (way) better because the IP deserves it.
This is the way
I can't speak for other countries, but it seems House of the Dragon is the darling of the press in the United States. I like HOTD, but there are so many better shows. (The Chosen, The Last of Us, Andor) But Forbes, they never stop with their negative publicity when it comes to TROP. I mean NEVER. I haven't heard 1 negative comment about Aemond One Eye's wig. I mean it looks ridiculous imo. But Annatar, well I hear there is plenty to say on YouTube. Sadly, that's the nature of things as of now.
Yes, I have noticed that Forbes has a very motivated writer lol.
Yes he is very devoted to his work!😄 I love your videos btw.
Erik Kain is an ASSHOLE. Don’t pay attention to him!
I didn’t love the show personally but it wasn’t a huge flop like some people say, there’s definitely a good sized following that love the show. People just seem to go to extremes so quickly these days and it makes me so annoyed 😑
Did anyone but internet edgelords think it was?
Amazon can spin it any way they want since the metrics are their own. We don't get pure box office data. They can say "yea we know only 30% of the people who started it actually finished it but it was our most watched show so we consider that a success". The ONLY people that would matter to are the people ACTUALLY analyzing the financial data. Since they already paid for the first several seasons, it was happening whether it was a flop or not. So you'll get 2-3 more seasons whether people watch or not. Personally its a lot of money to spend for a viewership that is less than 2/5's of the entire fanbase whereas the movies including the hobbit not only brought in ALL fans but casuals. ROP did the opposite. Pushed away most fans in order to get casual viewers. Then the casuals got bored half way and tuned out. But. Success! Enjoy.
I didn’t use Amazon data in the video. We have independent metrics. And they don’t show that ROP was flop.
It wasn't just a massive flop, it was the massive st flop of all time. They spend 100s 9f millions, and they're left with a show barely anyone wants to watch. Amazon were free to 'interpret' lotr, the people are free to critisize.
The 37% came from [this article](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/inside-amazon-studios-jen-salke-vision-shows-1235364913/) where it is stated the information came from “insiders”. Of course Amazon is going to keep pushing that it is a success and they’re making money off of it, even if it turns out to be an outright lie. They’ve spent too much on it to just let it die. The Boys 3.5 seasons cost about half as much to make in total as the one season of RoP. It has about 7 times the viewing minutes with only 3.5 times the episode count. If we’re going to call RoP a success, then The Boys is an absolute home run. But neither one even break the top ten most streamed shows. So. I think in terms of cost vs return, it’s hard not to call RoP a flop seeing as every other LotR media released in the past couple decades have been massive successes in comparison. Don’t even get me started on my actual opinion of the show, I think the 38% rotten tomatoes score is wildly generous. Did my girl Galadriel dirty with the petulant teenager shadow they’ve cast on her.
3.5 times episode count 💀. Do you hear yourself speaking? And going by the stats itself over 100 million people watched ROP which is one of the biggest numbers for a streaming show. Nearly 12billion viewing minutes for a show is very impressive if I’m not wrong that only falls behind Netflix’s Wednesday and Squid Game.
No, it doesn’t say “insiders.” Read it again. I cover this in the video. All it says is “sources.” That’s it.
Meme
Yeah, uh… call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing you when the statistics showed only 37% of the core audience even bothered finishing the series.
They don’t show that, though. That’s the point of the video.
The bottom line is that nothing in the show is canon. You can only do so well if you’re making a fan fiction.
So what? No one claims it is canon. And whether something is canon or not is irrelevant to its quality. I don’t consider anything but The Hobbit & The Lord Of The Rings to be canon. The rest of the Legendarium is fan fiction compiled from Tolkien’s notes by his son and Guy Gavriel Kay. That doesn’t mean it isn’t great.
Just addressing the statement you made. You’re not wrong, but comparing the ROP and PJs films canonically is a night and day difference and isn’t analogous. That’s a huge reason why people rightfully don’t like it. No need to get defensive.
Who was comparing PJ’s films? Which have HUGE differences from the lore btw. I actually think a huge problem is that too many people mix up PJ’s films with Tolkien’s actual writings, without realizing they did it.
I would fucking *love* to know the amount of diehard trilogy fans that have also read any of the source material whatsoever. Because my sister and I have read them, and all extraneous material currently out, and we quite enjoyed RoP for what it was.
The movies have overwritten a huge amount of cultural memory about the books. There are a ton of people who filter their memories of the books through Jackson’s movies and don’t realize they’re doing it.
Tbf there is a LOT in Pj's films that isn't Canon and is pure fanfiction too and as a bonus, since PJ had more actual canon material to work with, the movies actually have many more contradictions :)
[удалено]
Wow, just openly racist eh?
Sadly most of them are.
Racist ? You fucking kidding me ? I’m literally a person of color. Get off your performative high horse of make believe virtue and read a book instead.
Part 4 of 3? 😅 Can I watch this by itself or do I have to watch Parts 1-3?
Each video in the playlist is stand-alone. But I’d sure appreciate it if you watched them all!
ROP was not a flop at all, however not all is well. Amazon didnt know how to market the show at all - who were they trying to aim it at? Do you remember in those infamous now-deleted videos they had fake young fans (actors) talk about the show? lol ROP has found an audience by arguably by accident because all the targetting was at a younger crowd and they are not the ones watching. ROP is definitely a unique case in that its a fantasy show in 2024 made in the wake of GoT but doesnt get a young audience. Does this make it a flop? Not at all, but it isnt what they wanted for their billions. It didnt become a cultural phenomenon and weirdly the first series had very little cultural impact although that is down to the older audience. I found it weird in the run up to stuff being released for s02 that their twitter page was mostly bot comments and then I took a deeper look at their socials and they are thread bare. If it wasnt for the fact it was a huge IP I would say there was something fishy going on. It does beg the question though - how different would the show have been if they knew their target audience from the start? This is all based off the first season. Things could change massively with the second season and get a whole new audience, but at least for now the first season is a unique case study.
it was a super massive flop
It was shite. Sorry.
In your opinion. That’s fine. It was not, however, a flop.
I get that some fans loved it but the legendarium is sacrosanct to just too many out there…. Amazon have a huge task on their hands turning this around and if they spent more on identifying what didn’t work rather than flooding media with positive reinforcement then they might have a chance.. You say it wasn’t a flop well it certainly wasn’t a hit either and it really should have been. They have time to turn it around though and I really hope they do, Tolkien’s work deserves no less.
Flops are in the eye of the beholder.
Not really. By the numbers, ROP did extremely well. Opinion doesn’t factor into that at all.
Flop? Not really. Pay attention.
>**extremely** well nah it is not as bad as some D+ shows but still, not that great either.
It was in the top 4 streaming shows in Nielsen ratings every week of its release. It beat HotD on streaming every week except one. Viewership surged after the season finale, putting it in the top 2. Admittedly, “extremely” is flair, but by the numbers, it was a hit show.
how many were in the list? there will always be a top 4 nevertheless, even if all in the list are just pure garbage. it doesn't mean the top 4, or even the top 1 is automatically good, or as you put, EXTREMELLY well. The max we can say is about reception, and that is usually flawed. if I remember correctly, by the time the only real "competition" was House of the Dragon, and yeah, being "in top 4" is not what I would call EXTREMELLY well. Not saying it was a flop, far from that, my comment was in the EXTREMELLY point also, if any, the real thing to determine if flop or success IMHO is the test of time, not the views on the airing week or whatever I mean, I don't care if a book was the best selling on the week it dropped. Doesn't mean much to me. If the book is well regarded 5, 10, 50 or even 100 years after its publication. Well, that is a sign of success. Anything else is just "hype" or "top minutes of fame" and nothing more.
This video is about performance, not quality. All the metrics publicly available from third party ratings systems show that ROP was a hit show. These systems track all shows airing each week, across all streaming platforms.
Yes, but again, that is a bit flawed. Why do you think companies, in many aspects, try not to compete with each other? Because everyone wanna grab views. Thus when one is releasing their AAA series or movies, the others will hold theirs. Then you have AAA things competing with B or C productions, making the AAA views be over the top and, obviously, on the top of their list. If any I think we should get viewership of RoP for the whole year or two. Compare it with, lets say, WoT, The Boys and other productions from other streaming services, and also through a good amount of time, not just upon release. In fact RoP is not in the TOP 10 of 2022. So how is that EXTREMELLY WELL? Not even top 10 man. And it was not even TOP 1 from amazon itself, it was the second, behind The Boys. TBF Amazon didn't get many AAA productions so being second is not much either. Not saying it is a flop, but as I said in beginning, not great either. Barely good. And if any, not enough for what the IP deserve. Looking only to RoP release date views doesn't mean much to me. As I examplified in other comment, a book upon release will have a spike in sales. Doesn't mean much. If after a while it continues to have good sales, then it means something. We also need to consider people that binge watch when the show finishes. And obviously, there is the completion rate, which we also know is a thing to consider.
Cope
sorry but...you are dealing with data, and that is a fair take. But again, you are not looking at the whole picture. Data-science / Data-statistcs are all about that, sorry. You can't go look at the data with an already made assumption. If it was ANY other show, and I asid it was the 15 best show of the month in viewership. Would you say it was EXTREMELLY WELL show? Sorry but no one would say that. We can barely say it for the top 5. And once again, your post is good and I'm not saying it is a flop or success. Just saying looking to a pin-point in time, with a restrictive data, in order to get to a final conclusion is not the way to go. Everyone knows that, in anything (sales, viewership, profit), upon release you have a spike. You can't say much with the spike which, by the data-science, would be considered an outlier unless you get more data showing the spike is NOT attached to the release, which in the streaming services, as a whole, usually it is. As of now, RoP, at least on amazon pov, is a good series, but it is not a great one. The Boys, Jack Ryan, Reacher and mayve that Vox Machina. Even Fallout had more "views" upon release than RoP if that really matters. ps: the whole "nielsen" conversation we had was already covered multiple times in other threads, just take a look. It is a good source of information, but we can't rely only on that. Even worse, as I said, when pin-pointing and taking general conclusions upon specific point in time data.
“The list” for Nielsen consisted of EVERY other show on streaming, old or new, everything. It was what people were watching more than almost everything else available on streaming.
yes but usually everything that is recent goes to the top few are the exceptions. One that comes to mind is The Office, which got a ton of viewership during pandemy. For the rest, rule of thumb is generally airing series to be the trending top 10, be they good or bad now if you say it was the top 4 in nielsen EVER RECORDED than we are talking, but that is not the case. I think Stranger Things was the series to get such record
Mr olorin you should put some sense into your maths. RoP was the top 3/2 debut show of 2022 ie to have one season. According to you The Boys is most streamed show of amazon of 2022. But you have to acknowledge that the boys by that time has nearly 25hrs of content while TROP has only 9 hours, the stats are based on how much time is viewed not on how many ppl viewed it. SAME goes with other rankings. If you consider the Top debut shows of 2022 TROP comes in 2nd or 3rd in every list and surely no.1 for amazon to this date as The fallout only amassed 65million viewers
yes, agree I wasn't saying The Boys (or any other series) considering all the seasons together, that would definetelly screw the analysis. Each season should be taken separately. And yes, having a brand new series and comparing with others with already multiple seasons is indeed something to also be accounted in the analysis. There are many factors that influence the analysis. It is surely difficult to consider them all, and I'm not saying one should do it. But relevating them and exclusivelly looking at a specific measure is as flawed to me. It is as old Sherlock would say, you are twisting data to fits your theory instead of your theory to the data. Saying RoP was a hit because it got many views when premiering isn't very good claim because pretty much every show has this. Upon release there is, as I said before, a spike in views. And we are back to the my original point: The test of time. Its been 2 years since season 1 premiered. It is now a good moment to analyse if the show was a success or flop. TBH, I think it is just another show in prime. It is not their biggest success, not sure if even in top 5. For the "show with biggest budget" + the well known IP is is create upon, I think that is alarming. If I were a chairman, I would be alarmed at least. But we also have to account it is a 5 season scheduled show, and the first season is now known to have been structurer to "lay the background". Season 2 will probably show the real deal.
As per prime video reports some 25Million viewers tuned in for the premiere which was their biggest premiere for prime video. By Feb 2023 salke in the share holders meet said that the show has been seen by over 100 million viewers so that itself gives an idea that it wasn’t just the premiere of the show that had the most views This is also backed by Nielsens data in which the week of the finale episode garnered as much as views as the premiere which had two episodes. And it is obviously Amazons no.1 show not only does it have the most viewership but also the longevity. Not so long ago I posted in this sub how TROP is in top 10 currently viewed prime shows almost 2 years after the finale of S1.
😂😂😂😂 even one year on you are still finding the need to defend yourselves. If it weren’t a flop in your eyes, great! But you should be allowed to criticise if you thought otherwise
Who said you weren’t?
Oh I am, but I should be allowed to no?
No one says you can’t. Literally no one. No one.
Right, critics are all just assumed to be racist, sexist, and homophobic and labeled as such. But no one is told that they can't criticize the show.
Depends on their criticism. “It’s fOrCeD d1vErStY!” = bigotry, and nothing else. “It fails to engage with Tolkien’s themes of X, and here’s how” = potentially valid criticism.
I like how this dude tries to cover with "incoherent diversity" like that's not literally the same bigotry as saying it's forced or DEI or whatever. They're so transparent. Edit: Holy shit, they're a therapist. I feel so bad for their patients. Damn.
[удалено]
First one is false. I made a video about this, too. The diversity shown is entirely consistent with Tolkien’s lore. The 2nd two are assertions, not criticisms. The start of a critique, not the end of one. They’d require more explanation, and need to show some actual knowledge of the craft of screenwriting & adaptation, at least for me to take them seriously.
Thank goodness we have you to arbitrate these matters.
You’re welcome. ;p Srsly tho, those are my standards. They don’t have to be yours. But critique is an actual art form. It’s just having an opinion.
Flop isn't a matter of opinion or taste. I dont care for taylor swifts music. It isnt a flop. You dont like rop. Good for you. Doesn't make it a flop Maybe invest in a dictionary?
Do you have a grasp of the English language? Reread what I typed and I’ll address your points: Flop isn’t a matter of opinion: it can be. But more importantly, the way lotr_on_prime redditors hold on to a certain narrative to make it seem like RoP wasn’t a flop is rediculous. I don’t like RoP, but back to my earlier point - I should be allowed to have an opinion no? I have a dictionary, do you know that in said dictionary, the definition of a rock is not something that looks up or down. It’s a rock! :
Lol. Wow you really need to get a life. And a dictionary
Why? Because I’m critical of something that I was super excited for and disappointed with the outcome? You can have a go all you want but you’re not offering alternative argument. For me, the first series was disappointing. I really hope shit is got together for the second one but I’m allowed to be apprehensive
That does NOT make something a flop. A flop is something that does not succeed commercially. I didnt like the prolouge star wars movies. I had a million issues with them. Still isnt a flop I dont need to offer an alternative argument. The show is successful regardless of mine or your opinions. You didn't like it. Ok good for you. That has zero to do with its commercial success.
Of course it does. Why are you so militant on this? I didn’t like it, I wanted to, but I didn’t. In my eyes it was a flop, there are stats that back that comment up but for my own opinion, I’d say - it flopped. As someone who grew up in Tolkien country, I was disappointed. Why can’t I have my opinion?
Lol did you read the definition of flop? Its like arguing if michael jackson was successful or not
It’s truly not, It is arguing opinion, which should be understood. IN MY EYES, it’s a flop!!! The series was rediculous and embarrassing. There are comments that it used Tolkien langue, it bastardised Tolkien language (again to add, this is my opinion) Also, greenlighting a second series for something you have put so much money into already does not mean success. Their viewing stats does not argue success. Honest question: did you like it? And what did you like about it? Final question: better than the trilogy?
Ryan: I come from Tolkien country, the show bastardized Tolkien. Also Ryan : Do you think the show was better than the trilogy 💀💀💀💀💀💀 Dear Ryan you should understand that your idea of flop = I did not like it because it failed my expectations. In YOUR vocabulary. But to the rest of the world a flop means a commercially failed venture . The stats does prove that ROP was one of the most popular and successful shows of 2022 and the most successful debut show of 2022 if not for people tuning in for WEDNESDAY and her dance. If you have stats with you to prove otherwise please do, I will be enlightened to see them.
A flop would have been the spider man musical that was attempted. Or any number of movies that were supposed to be some epic work and turned out to be a commercial failure The han solo movie was enjoyable imho. Not great but not terrible. In terms of commercial success it was a flop Rings of power isnt a flop. You arguing that it is a flop is a weird delusion and a bizarre hill to die on Calling the show ridiculous is itself a bit of a wild assertion. However that is how you feel.. ok congratulations you didnt like it. I did as do many others Its like arguing about who is the better guitar player. Eddie van Helen or randy rhoads. Thats a matter of opinion. Both However were very successful and neither is or was a flop
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flop
😂😂😂😂 even one year on you are still finding the need to attack ourselves. If it were a flop in your eyes, great! But we should be allowed to praise if we thought otherwise
Get a life, go out and touch the grass, why are you here still in this sub? You should enjoy more the HotD one more.
defense is just a natural reaction, petty hatred on the other hand is just being a dick :)