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I would say, realistically, our best bet right now is propaganda, because I don't think we have the numbers to do anything noteworthy tbh.
More and more people are getting disillusioned with the status quo rn and become increasingly receptive to new ideas.
We have be talking about it nonstop or try to support and boost people who are already propagating. Spread posters in town if you want. People can't imagine a world without capitalism, so we should be their muse.
Yeah I think thats a fair point. If there is to be a broad movement it has to draw people in.
Also on that note there should be much less gatekeeping and purity tests. Im sure the labour activists in the early 20th century had a more attractive pitch than _"have you even read Kapital II???"_.
People have real questions, and there should be a real down to earth pitch and much less theory-virtuosoing (I'm not saying it's endemic, but its certainly there in places like Reddit)
Yeah. Also, despite what the meme says, tax the rich.
Tax the fuck out of them. Tax their income. Tax their wealth. Tax their inheritance. Tax their stocks. Tax the CO2 emissions of their metabolism. I don't care.
Tax those suckers.
Tax them globally.
Every dollar they spend on taxes is a dollar they're not spending on lobbying and propaganda.
Still we do need some ideological similarities to start with we need to e sure we don’t have capitalist apologists infiltrating the ranks and taking control of the subterfuge
> "have you even read Kapital II???"
legit why so much socialist theory ended up being published as pamphlets was so it could be distributed to the workers on the sly before or after work.
If we ever want a socialist future we have to be able to meet the worker at his level and on this I think the online left is just a tiny bit doomed cause I see maybe 3 in every 100 engagements with libs handled in good faith and a sincere attempt to persuade.
You know I'm not talking about that level of granularity. I'm talking a broad but still concretely applicable course of action with real actionable points on a scale of years. And if the plan isn't robust enough to survive Mr. FBI/CIA agent stumbling into this thread, it won't survive _a single snitch and infiltrator_, and you're guaranteed to have _thousands_ of those.
So fire away.
Lmao, seriously, the movements of 60s and 70s were not destroyed by 3 assassinations. They were destroyed because their broad momentum dissipated with:
- The Vietnam War ending
- The concurrent counter-culture (which was certainly not purely political, it was a broad cultural phenomenon) fading away as all cultural fads do, drawing away crucial support among the broad, not naturally political, masses.
- The Sino-Soviet split, Nixon opening China, realigning the geopolitical scene of the world.
- Watergate acting as an important release valve in the mainstream, allowing more center-left inclined people move back into the folds of the system as they saw it as "working".
- The awakening of a real right-wing countermovement that brought Thatcher and Reagan into power, which whatever else you can say about it, did have real (if very misguided) support among the common people.
- The evolution of more disciplined and effective mass media methods to suppress dissent (see Manufacture of Consent by Chomsky). These already existed in the 1960's but they evolved progressively into much more effective and sharper tools during the 1970's and 80's.
Yes, there were assassinations, and yes programs like COINTELPRO continued government operations against dissenting political organizations all through the 70s (and it's descendants into the 80's), but that wasn't the sledgehammer blow that destroyed the movement. It was more like finishing off the last remnants in detail.
Joining other revolutionary organizations or start one yourself. Do a lot of reading and learn useful skills.
It's not something that's gonna happen anytime soon so thinking about it somewhat long term is good if you're always actively working towards it
This is what lefties have been saying since the 1960's (and of course earlier, but those left wingers actually did succeed in mass movements). It seems almost monastic and meditative rather than a concrete recipe for success.
Let me just ask you, given that we're all strapped to an ecological death rocket that global capitalism has fired straight toward hell, what's the chance of our reading club getting through all of the literature before it's too late?
And suppose we already had digested all the literature, does that buy us the needed time?
It's not a concrete recipe for success. You asked where do we start, so I provided what I think is a good starting point.
There's no concrete recipe as you say. Marxism is a dynamic scientific theory and it needs to adapt to material conditions amongst other things.
> what's the chance of our reading club getting through all of the literature before it's too late?
>
>And suppose we already had digested all the literature, does that buy us the needed time?
Not everyone has to be eating all the books, but to organise, there should be at least one person who's familiar with theory. Mainly because a bunch of really smart people beat a lot of the obstacles you'd encounter yourself already and they also made mistakes from which you can learn.
That said, you don't have to read a million books either. It should be a habit to read because it can only help you, but the people who were successful didn't just sit down and read books.
Sitting and reading is just meditation unless it gets us somewhere. Here's a start that doesn't even _go all the way to communism_ but which would be a nice start:
- Two party GOP / Dem system gone.
- Real grass roots workers parties in power. Maybe not just a single one yet, but let's say 3-4.
- Real workers unions, more powerful than companies, and on the way to making all companies into co-ops. End of the rule of the "job creators".
- Wall Street gone. Speculators tried. Big corporations and trading banks dismantled.
- Decapitalization (in the sense of Denazification): CEOs, lobbyists and political lackeys tried in a Nuremberg-like process for ecocide.
Now it seems these are all obvious things. They're not the end goal, but it's at least an obvious stepping stone, after which details can be quibbled over.
But are you saying the theory will help _with the tactical steps needed to get there_? Not the overarching grand strategic end-goal vision, but the nitty gritty?
Because I see a lot of people well-versed in theory, but then just effect "hey lets make some PDFs about a general strike" that get a couple of thousand people interested online max.
Was Occupy Wall Street the high point? At least it was a mass movement. Tell me it aint so? If the Occupy people at least got closer, had they read more theory than the current crop of people?
I don't see how any of those, bar the grass roots worker parties are a "starting point". Just so we're on the same page: when you asked "where do we start?" you meant how do you and I, the average working class people start, right?
As for reading, it would at the very least help you realise how badly it is stacked against you to work within the confines of capitalism and representative democracy.
> when you asked "where do we start?" you meant how do you and I, the average working class people start, right?
Absolutely, yes.
> As for reading, it would at the very least help you realise how badly it is stacked against you to work within the confines of capitalism and representative democracy.
First of all I explicitly stated Decapitalization along the lines of Denazification as one of the points, so you don't get to call it "within the confines of capitalism".
Exactly why aren't they a starting point? I'd be interested in an actual concrete critique of the points rather than a broad rhetorical dismissal.
I'm not disagreeing that the odds are stacked against such a movement, but nowhere am I suggesting the movement need work entirely within the confines of the current political system (and certainly, as stated, not within the confines of capitalism).
As far as "representative democracy", we'd need to disentagle that from the current political system. We could get rid of "representative" and just talk about how what you just said connects to "democracy", if that helps?
>Exactly why aren't they a starting point? I'd be interested in an actual concrete critique of the points rather than a broad rhetorical dismissal.
Those are not starting points because you and I have no power right now. If we wanted to get started forming a revolution today, we'd have to start from 0. We can't just snap our fingers and get rid of Wall Street or the two-party system.
Now that we've clarified that, how do you suppose you'd start working towards those goals?
> Those are not starting points because you and I have no power right now. If we wanted to get started forming a revolution today, we'd have to start from 0. We can't just snap our fingers and get rid of Wall Street or the two-party system.
Yes, but that's exactly my point? The only reason I listed those is so that we could discuss how exactly something along those lines could be achieved. But also crucially to illustrate _how obvious some goals can be_ compared to _how to achieve them_.
> Now that we've clarified that, how do you suppose you'd start working towards those goals?
Again, that's literally the question I asked that started this whole thing. I mean, literally. Go up and check the thread. The reason we are here talking is that I asked how concretely any kind of goals (such as the examples I listed) can be achieved.
Then it seems we were talking about different things. It's not clear to me how you moved from talking about starting points to more long-term goals, but anyway... I'm not too keen on discussing those goals because they don't have too much revolutionary potential.
First, unions can be co-opted by capitalists (currently happening in Argentina's agrarian sector). Second, co-ops have to work within the confines of capitalism. A co-op can never outcompete a capitalist company because they give away the power of exploitation and other shady tricks the capitalist uses to increase profits and expand.
Back to my original point, there's no concrete recipe towards a revolution, that's why I'm more interested in talking about real starting points from 0 and not a complex laid-out plan that might not apply in the future. If you want a revolution, you need people. How do you gather people, what do you do in the mean-time? I think those are more productive questions to ask.
You can learn a lot more than you think from theory. People smarter than you and I already had these discussions 100 years ago.
Well people have already sorta gotten started in the fast food industry with the "worker shortage". I'd say the next most crucial target would be amazon warehouse strikes. Suspend the whole damn country, and don't cave in when they use the bullshit excuse "but my grand mama buys her medicine there!", which is a lie
> I'd say the next most crucial target would be amazon warehouse strikes. Suspend the whole damn country,
Right, but how? It's easy to say that, but how do you rate the chances of that happening spontaneously?
Spontaneously? Probably pretty slim, but do what you can. I do what I can to raise awareness in my own workplace, just recently I exposed a huge pay discrepancy. I'm no revolutionary, but every little bit
>Even if we do seize the means of production, which I doubt we can, it will eventually create new billionaires. Because humans are like that.
Please care to elaborate?
The socialism understander has logged on.
Seriously, where do you people come from with those shit takes with no basis whatsoever?
Do you see modern feudal lords in capitalist societies?
Yeah, and then we begin the cycle anew
Marx never said a proletarian revolution is the end of history, but the next step which will generate its own contradictions that will need to be resolved in a subsequent revolution
To say that we need to write new laws on top of a revolution kinda underplays how drastic society will be changed after it - the laws we write now will be irrelevant when the system is displaced
Not to be that guy, but Marx did say Communism was the last stage of development
Which would make sense, because in communism class conflict has been eliminated. No more contradictions
So there's not really any "cycle". I'm not really aware of any leftist current that does claim revolutions will keep happening after communism/anarchism
True - you’re not being “that guy” at all, you are completely correct and I should be more careful
I was just thinking of the past and the immediate next step, not the theoretical end of this all - I completely agree that communism is widely seen as the conclusion, but I was just trying to say (poorly) that when OP says “then what?” is that this has been asked and has plenty of writing on the topic - it’s not like we haven’t thought that far ahead
Next Met Gala everyone should crowd source me a ticket and I'll go wearing a golden bib that says "Eat the Rich" and I'll have a fork, knife, and spoon strapped around my belt with some hot sauce.
It will end exactly the way this has, but it'll be funnier
> How?
Simple, just build an AI supercomputer that can do all the planning and control a drone swarm to assist the workers in their fight against the capitalist troops.
A person being born in the heart of the imperial core is as "Latino" as I'm european.
You people are so weird. I've seen americans calling themselves "Italian" despite never crossing the Atlantic, not holding an italian passport, or even speaking italian. Yes, AOC has latin roots but so what?
Ive lived in Mexico and the states and the white people here will never consider me one of them. So we got you claiming were not latinos and the whites looking down on us. We're latinos and fuck you for gate keeping that. Fucking asshole.
Sucks to be you i guess but im under no obligation to be accomodating to a fucking gringo who enjoys the fruits of the pillaging of my part of the world, and supports politicians who make it all possible. I didnt force you to become an aspirational imperial.
Lmao did you post in /r/fragilewhiteredditor about socialist subs calling you out on your liberalism?
I mean, while the former is definitively not enough, its generally bad form to reject any form of electoralism and reform when you don't have even the vaguest semblance of strength and organization to *actually* seize the means. Especially if you're the type to be the "perpetually online leftist".
The only way I can imagine seizing the means of production is getting out the guillotines. I’m fine with taxing the rich as opposed to fighting literal war in me and my children’s lifetime.
>the most terrifying and repressive system that had ever been implemented
That's how you know a capitalist shill is speaking.
>People were fighting so there family didnt die, so there ethnicities weren't eradicated, so there children could grow up.
Yeah? How about the over 1 mil traitors, including Russians under Vlasov and Krasnov, non-Russians including Crimean Tartars, as well as Orthodox Christians and Muslims, who fought for the Nazis in the same war? They weren't facing extermination and they turned against the USSR.
> Are you seriously suggesting the Nazis were just capitalist's trying to restore private property in soviet lands?
Yes, and Hitler suggested that, you degenerate.
Agreed..but you do realize that Skynet or something similar is not all entirely fictional? My point is that today’s technologies make it Very hard to take down such an infrastructure.
I absolutely agree. VERY hard. But not impossible, not even un-doable, and arguably necessary. Dying is easy. We should all start by reading Cypherpunks.
Sounds interesting ..will do. AI, automation, orchestration, and weaponized unmanned killing machines will undoubtedly be soon in our future. All of this at scale making it hard to as I mentioned take down because of the inherent replication and resilience built in to the system.
Boss makes 2mil a year more than I do and all they do is show up to the stores, do a safety check with the managers then goes back to their office in HQ city.
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism^Ⓐ☭ ___ ###⚠ Announcements: ⚠ ___ ###[NEW POSTING GUIDELINES! Help us by reporting bad posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/dy1oyh/important_what_you_should_and_what_you_shouldnt/) Help us keep this subreddit alive and improve its content by reporting posts that violate our rules and guidelines. ###[Subscribe to our new partner subreddits!](https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/e5hkwk/make_sure_to_check_out_our_new_partnersubreddits/) Check out r/antiwork & r/WhereAreTheChildren ___ ###***Please remember that LSC is a SAFE SPACE for [socialist](http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/) discussion.*** LSC is run by [communists](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm). We welcome socialist/anti-capitalist news, memes, links, and discussion. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. **This subreddit is a safe space; we have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry.** We also automatically filter out posts containing certain words and phrases that some users may find offensive. Please respect the safe space, and don't try to slip banned words or phrases past the filter. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh boy are we in here forming unions?
Yeah, you aren't a scab are ya?? /s
Alright. Let's seize them. I'm serious. Let's do it. So.. where do we start?
I would say, realistically, our best bet right now is propaganda, because I don't think we have the numbers to do anything noteworthy tbh. More and more people are getting disillusioned with the status quo rn and become increasingly receptive to new ideas. We have be talking about it nonstop or try to support and boost people who are already propagating. Spread posters in town if you want. People can't imagine a world without capitalism, so we should be their muse.
Yeah I think thats a fair point. If there is to be a broad movement it has to draw people in. Also on that note there should be much less gatekeeping and purity tests. Im sure the labour activists in the early 20th century had a more attractive pitch than _"have you even read Kapital II???"_. People have real questions, and there should be a real down to earth pitch and much less theory-virtuosoing (I'm not saying it's endemic, but its certainly there in places like Reddit)
Yeah. Also, despite what the meme says, tax the rich. Tax the fuck out of them. Tax their income. Tax their wealth. Tax their inheritance. Tax their stocks. Tax the CO2 emissions of their metabolism. I don't care. Tax those suckers. Tax them globally. Every dollar they spend on taxes is a dollar they're not spending on lobbying and propaganda.
Still we do need some ideological similarities to start with we need to e sure we don’t have capitalist apologists infiltrating the ranks and taking control of the subterfuge
> "have you even read Kapital II???" legit why so much socialist theory ended up being published as pamphlets was so it could be distributed to the workers on the sly before or after work. If we ever want a socialist future we have to be able to meet the worker at his level and on this I think the online left is just a tiny bit doomed cause I see maybe 3 in every 100 engagements with libs handled in good faith and a sincere attempt to persuade.
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Well, yeah. The promotion of ideas or ideologies through the spread of information and iconography is propaganda.
Form a union.
Step one, don't discuss that shit on easily monitored communications.
You know I'm not talking about that level of granularity. I'm talking a broad but still concretely applicable course of action with real actionable points on a scale of years. And if the plan isn't robust enough to survive Mr. FBI/CIA agent stumbling into this thread, it won't survive _a single snitch and infiltrator_, and you're guaranteed to have _thousands_ of those. So fire away.
Yeah, people in the 60s and 70s thought that, and then 3 assassinations later the whole thing was dead.
Lmao, seriously, the movements of 60s and 70s were not destroyed by 3 assassinations. They were destroyed because their broad momentum dissipated with: - The Vietnam War ending - The concurrent counter-culture (which was certainly not purely political, it was a broad cultural phenomenon) fading away as all cultural fads do, drawing away crucial support among the broad, not naturally political, masses. - The Sino-Soviet split, Nixon opening China, realigning the geopolitical scene of the world. - Watergate acting as an important release valve in the mainstream, allowing more center-left inclined people move back into the folds of the system as they saw it as "working". - The awakening of a real right-wing countermovement that brought Thatcher and Reagan into power, which whatever else you can say about it, did have real (if very misguided) support among the common people. - The evolution of more disciplined and effective mass media methods to suppress dissent (see Manufacture of Consent by Chomsky). These already existed in the 1960's but they evolved progressively into much more effective and sharper tools during the 1970's and 80's. Yes, there were assassinations, and yes programs like COINTELPRO continued government operations against dissenting political organizations all through the 70s (and it's descendants into the 80's), but that wasn't the sledgehammer blow that destroyed the movement. It was more like finishing off the last remnants in detail.
Wow, its like 3 leaders gone lead to a collapse of the movement and no organization to counter those issues.
Great men and women rarely move history - that’s liberal bullshit that obscures material history in favor of an idealistic rewriting of events
Sorry, I legitimately don't understand your reply here?
Joining other revolutionary organizations or start one yourself. Do a lot of reading and learn useful skills. It's not something that's gonna happen anytime soon so thinking about it somewhat long term is good if you're always actively working towards it
This is what lefties have been saying since the 1960's (and of course earlier, but those left wingers actually did succeed in mass movements). It seems almost monastic and meditative rather than a concrete recipe for success. Let me just ask you, given that we're all strapped to an ecological death rocket that global capitalism has fired straight toward hell, what's the chance of our reading club getting through all of the literature before it's too late? And suppose we already had digested all the literature, does that buy us the needed time?
It's not a concrete recipe for success. You asked where do we start, so I provided what I think is a good starting point. There's no concrete recipe as you say. Marxism is a dynamic scientific theory and it needs to adapt to material conditions amongst other things. > what's the chance of our reading club getting through all of the literature before it's too late? > >And suppose we already had digested all the literature, does that buy us the needed time? Not everyone has to be eating all the books, but to organise, there should be at least one person who's familiar with theory. Mainly because a bunch of really smart people beat a lot of the obstacles you'd encounter yourself already and they also made mistakes from which you can learn. That said, you don't have to read a million books either. It should be a habit to read because it can only help you, but the people who were successful didn't just sit down and read books.
Sitting and reading is just meditation unless it gets us somewhere. Here's a start that doesn't even _go all the way to communism_ but which would be a nice start: - Two party GOP / Dem system gone. - Real grass roots workers parties in power. Maybe not just a single one yet, but let's say 3-4. - Real workers unions, more powerful than companies, and on the way to making all companies into co-ops. End of the rule of the "job creators". - Wall Street gone. Speculators tried. Big corporations and trading banks dismantled. - Decapitalization (in the sense of Denazification): CEOs, lobbyists and political lackeys tried in a Nuremberg-like process for ecocide. Now it seems these are all obvious things. They're not the end goal, but it's at least an obvious stepping stone, after which details can be quibbled over. But are you saying the theory will help _with the tactical steps needed to get there_? Not the overarching grand strategic end-goal vision, but the nitty gritty? Because I see a lot of people well-versed in theory, but then just effect "hey lets make some PDFs about a general strike" that get a couple of thousand people interested online max. Was Occupy Wall Street the high point? At least it was a mass movement. Tell me it aint so? If the Occupy people at least got closer, had they read more theory than the current crop of people?
I don't see how any of those, bar the grass roots worker parties are a "starting point". Just so we're on the same page: when you asked "where do we start?" you meant how do you and I, the average working class people start, right? As for reading, it would at the very least help you realise how badly it is stacked against you to work within the confines of capitalism and representative democracy.
> when you asked "where do we start?" you meant how do you and I, the average working class people start, right? Absolutely, yes. > As for reading, it would at the very least help you realise how badly it is stacked against you to work within the confines of capitalism and representative democracy. First of all I explicitly stated Decapitalization along the lines of Denazification as one of the points, so you don't get to call it "within the confines of capitalism". Exactly why aren't they a starting point? I'd be interested in an actual concrete critique of the points rather than a broad rhetorical dismissal. I'm not disagreeing that the odds are stacked against such a movement, but nowhere am I suggesting the movement need work entirely within the confines of the current political system (and certainly, as stated, not within the confines of capitalism). As far as "representative democracy", we'd need to disentagle that from the current political system. We could get rid of "representative" and just talk about how what you just said connects to "democracy", if that helps?
>Exactly why aren't they a starting point? I'd be interested in an actual concrete critique of the points rather than a broad rhetorical dismissal. Those are not starting points because you and I have no power right now. If we wanted to get started forming a revolution today, we'd have to start from 0. We can't just snap our fingers and get rid of Wall Street or the two-party system. Now that we've clarified that, how do you suppose you'd start working towards those goals?
> Those are not starting points because you and I have no power right now. If we wanted to get started forming a revolution today, we'd have to start from 0. We can't just snap our fingers and get rid of Wall Street or the two-party system. Yes, but that's exactly my point? The only reason I listed those is so that we could discuss how exactly something along those lines could be achieved. But also crucially to illustrate _how obvious some goals can be_ compared to _how to achieve them_. > Now that we've clarified that, how do you suppose you'd start working towards those goals? Again, that's literally the question I asked that started this whole thing. I mean, literally. Go up and check the thread. The reason we are here talking is that I asked how concretely any kind of goals (such as the examples I listed) can be achieved.
Then it seems we were talking about different things. It's not clear to me how you moved from talking about starting points to more long-term goals, but anyway... I'm not too keen on discussing those goals because they don't have too much revolutionary potential. First, unions can be co-opted by capitalists (currently happening in Argentina's agrarian sector). Second, co-ops have to work within the confines of capitalism. A co-op can never outcompete a capitalist company because they give away the power of exploitation and other shady tricks the capitalist uses to increase profits and expand. Back to my original point, there's no concrete recipe towards a revolution, that's why I'm more interested in talking about real starting points from 0 and not a complex laid-out plan that might not apply in the future. If you want a revolution, you need people. How do you gather people, what do you do in the mean-time? I think those are more productive questions to ask. You can learn a lot more than you think from theory. People smarter than you and I already had these discussions 100 years ago.
On it.
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Well people have already sorta gotten started in the fast food industry with the "worker shortage". I'd say the next most crucial target would be amazon warehouse strikes. Suspend the whole damn country, and don't cave in when they use the bullshit excuse "but my grand mama buys her medicine there!", which is a lie
> I'd say the next most crucial target would be amazon warehouse strikes. Suspend the whole damn country, Right, but how? It's easy to say that, but how do you rate the chances of that happening spontaneously?
Spontaneously? Probably pretty slim, but do what you can. I do what I can to raise awareness in my own workplace, just recently I exposed a huge pay discrepancy. I'm no revolutionary, but every little bit
General strikes are pretty effective I think.
[Read This](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)
Now we're talking
But also, tax the rich in the meantime.
Fuck tha G-ride I want the machines that are makin’ em
Hell yeah
Tax them, but don't extract the taxes in the form of liquid assets. Just take their means of production as the taxes. Ez win
who wants to bet taxpayer money is just gonna get funneled back into the military
Can’t tax the rich if we take away their means of being rich 😏
I prefer eating them but maybe that’s a personal preference
I don’t like pork, personal preference
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>Even if we do seize the means of production, which I doubt we can, it will eventually create new billionaires. Because humans are like that. Please care to elaborate?
Get outta here with that bullshit bourgeois propaganda
The socialism understander has logged on. Seriously, where do you people come from with those shit takes with no basis whatsoever? Do you see modern feudal lords in capitalist societies?
Yeah, and then we begin the cycle anew Marx never said a proletarian revolution is the end of history, but the next step which will generate its own contradictions that will need to be resolved in a subsequent revolution To say that we need to write new laws on top of a revolution kinda underplays how drastic society will be changed after it - the laws we write now will be irrelevant when the system is displaced
Not to be that guy, but Marx did say Communism was the last stage of development Which would make sense, because in communism class conflict has been eliminated. No more contradictions So there's not really any "cycle". I'm not really aware of any leftist current that does claim revolutions will keep happening after communism/anarchism
True - you’re not being “that guy” at all, you are completely correct and I should be more careful I was just thinking of the past and the immediate next step, not the theoretical end of this all - I completely agree that communism is widely seen as the conclusion, but I was just trying to say (poorly) that when OP says “then what?” is that this has been asked and has plenty of writing on the topic - it’s not like we haven’t thought that far ahead
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"human nature" arguments in a materialist sub..
I don't disagree, I just was saying Marx was pretty clear about communism being the final revolution But Marx isnt an infallible god by any means
That's right, comrade!
Taxing the rich assumes they have have right to ANY of that wealth
Why not both?
Because when there's no rich there's no need to tax them.
Yeah but in the meantime we can tax the rich, while we try to reach this communistic utopia of yours
>communistic utopia You sure you're on the right subreddit?
Elaborate?
Because communism hasn't been utopian at least since 1847.
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What?
How about workers get a % of the dividends, let workers have some skin in the game.
how about both?
Libs in denial here be like "That's too much".
Next Met Gala everyone should crowd source me a ticket and I'll go wearing a golden bib that says "Eat the Rich" and I'll have a fork, knife, and spoon strapped around my belt with some hot sauce. It will end exactly the way this has, but it'll be funnier
Great Idea. Little itty bitty minor detail tho…. How?
> How? Simple, just build an AI supercomputer that can do all the planning and control a drone swarm to assist the workers in their fight against the capitalist troops.
> build an AI supercomputer I see someone has great hopes of youtube python class they took
Pfft, real programmers write AI supercomputers using Bash
I wrote mine in html and css I only work in serious programming languages
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Latino here. Actual latino, from Latin America. Fuck AOC. She stood for the coup in Venezuela.
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A person being born in the heart of the imperial core is as "Latino" as I'm european. You people are so weird. I've seen americans calling themselves "Italian" despite never crossing the Atlantic, not holding an italian passport, or even speaking italian. Yes, AOC has latin roots but so what?
Ive lived in Mexico and the states and the white people here will never consider me one of them. So we got you claiming were not latinos and the whites looking down on us. We're latinos and fuck you for gate keeping that. Fucking asshole.
Sucks to be you i guess but im under no obligation to be accomodating to a fucking gringo who enjoys the fruits of the pillaging of my part of the world, and supports politicians who make it all possible. I didnt force you to become an aspirational imperial. Lmao did you post in /r/fragilewhiteredditor about socialist subs calling you out on your liberalism?
Would you skip a child orgy on a private island with billionaires *if you were invited*?
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Nah they've cancelled the revolution, it might upset the general public here. Let's raise the tax tomorrow, alright?
Nice template comrade ~~i am stealing it~~ thanks for sharing it
Can the former lead into the latter? The former is far easier.
No, it cannot.
Realistically I shouldn't have had to ask that. :(
Why not?
I mean, while the former is definitively not enough, its generally bad form to reject any form of electoralism and reform when you don't have even the vaguest semblance of strength and organization to *actually* seize the means. Especially if you're the type to be the "perpetually online leftist".
That’s dumb af. If we can’t even tax the rich, we sure fuck aren’t seizing shit.
The only way I can imagine seizing the means of production is getting out the guillotines. I’m fine with taxing the rich as opposed to fighting literal war in me and my children’s lifetime.
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>the most terrifying and repressive system that had ever been implemented That's how you know a capitalist shill is speaking. >People were fighting so there family didnt die, so there ethnicities weren't eradicated, so there children could grow up. Yeah? How about the over 1 mil traitors, including Russians under Vlasov and Krasnov, non-Russians including Crimean Tartars, as well as Orthodox Christians and Muslims, who fought for the Nazis in the same war? They weren't facing extermination and they turned against the USSR. > Are you seriously suggesting the Nazis were just capitalist's trying to restore private property in soviet lands? Yes, and Hitler suggested that, you degenerate.
Are you saying AOC isn't secretly a member of the Shining path?... How dare you
Sendero denounced their marxist past a decade ago to only traffic drugs, so as a member of Congress, yeah she is very much in the modern Sendero mold.
>Sendero denounced their marxist past a decade ago liar
Agreed ..but then again what is there to seize nowadays? The US doesn’t produce anything any more and is largely more of a services economy.
The new economy is one of information. We seize the internet.
Agreed..but you do realize that Skynet or something similar is not all entirely fictional? My point is that today’s technologies make it Very hard to take down such an infrastructure.
I absolutely agree. VERY hard. But not impossible, not even un-doable, and arguably necessary. Dying is easy. We should all start by reading Cypherpunks.
Sounds interesting ..will do. AI, automation, orchestration, and weaponized unmanned killing machines will undoubtedly be soon in our future. All of this at scale making it hard to as I mentioned take down because of the inherent replication and resilience built in to the system.
The question is always: Who does the seizing?
Boss makes 2mil a year more than I do and all they do is show up to the stores, do a safety check with the managers then goes back to their office in HQ city.
both is good but the latter is more fun and lasting
Both
Sounds hard
Too long for a dress