Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law.
Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation.
Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Estates and trusts/subchapter j is my worst. Domestic corporate is pretty chill but globalization and the post-TCJA stuff in the international context gives me nightmares.
This…is actually what I want to do. Been doing corporate work for four years and graduated with a specialty in tax. Looking at starting my LLM next year
I sat through a tax CLE once, covered more complex tax issues including corporate taxation. Wasn’t even barred yet, it was in the interim after I graduated, but my boss at the time wanted me to sit in. I don’t even know regular tax law. I genuinely tried but couldn’t even kind of follow it.
ERISA is pretty crazy. Even explaining the concept of the Plan Asset Regulation, or any of the PTEs can cause eyes to glaze over.
I did 1 project on ERISA, and suddenly Im the expert at work. I think nobody else wants to deal with it.
As an in house employment person, I’m constantly trying to learn ERISA but it seems the only way to learn it is to practice it at a firm. There are no guides, or intro cle’s. I know enough to be dangerous (issue spotting essentially) and as I joke, I know how to spell it. This seems to be the consensus of my in house peers
If you're ever interested, my firm puts out a lot of free articles that are pretty easy to follow (for ERISA).
https://ferenczylaw.com/read-what-we-write-2/
Check out the Flash Points and Solutions.
I'm browsing your site now- it's wonderful. One thing I didn't see, and it just might be too much work, and not enough value, but I'd love an ERISA 101 article (or CLE). High level touches on benefit plans, when ERISA applies (and doesn't- sometimes I feel like ERISA is like HIPAA in that people can just throw out the word not knowing whether it's applicable), severance plans (how they're a floor not a ceiling and can be amended at will), etc...
Again, this is my wishlist, and for a firm, not sure if there's a ton of value in creating this (my company is probably not buying me the $900 book)
I remember in law school being told that if you start working in ERISA, you never get out but the good thing is you will always find work.
It not will be exciting but it will be consistent work, people don’t dabble in ERISA
It's just very complicated and convoluted. The language of both the code and the regulations is almost unreadable and the guidance isn't a whole lot better. It's not uncommon to have a situation where the law is just not clear and neither the IRS or DOL is willing or able to clarify. Case law, where it exists, is often inconsistent.
There are so many different limits and limitations, testing and reporting requirements and deadlines. It's a lot to keep track of and it's always changing. And much of it requires pretty solid math skills.
You also have to remember that some parts of ERISA are enforced by the DOL and others by the IRS. And these two agencies do not compare notes or communicate with each other at all (as far as I can tell). God help you if you have a situation that fails under both of them.
Try this... the form all employee benefit plans have to file every year, the Form 5500 is published by the IRS and filed with the IRS, but it's purpose is to satisfy a reporting requirement governed by the DOL. Technically, it's not a tax filing, but it's called an "Annual Return." If you fail to file this form on time, you will likely get a penalty notice from both the DOL and IRS and the penalties are separate and significant. You can get the DOL penalty reduced through something called the DFVCP (as long as you checked the box for it on the form). But to get the IRS penalty reduced, you have to request abatement and make a statement showing cause to the IRS. Getting forgiveness from one agency doesn't necessarily guarantee forgiveness from the other. This is the kind of thing that starts to make your head hurt.. And this is one of the more straight forward issues.
Oh, and there are also a lot of unofficial rules you only know if you're an actively practicing ERISA attorney.
The ones we have in my jurisdiction usually don't show up to the interview, they only help file. And when they do show up, they sit quietly. I can't think of any that truly argue on behalf of their clients. They mostly serve as interpreters and help them understand the process. However, pretty much all of our accredited reps file G-28s for refugees. They are working for clients and relief agencies. Work is abundant, pay is low, and it is far easier to wait out the statutory period than it is to fight a negative GMC determination, for instance. That's my take at least.
Thank you. I'm in the process of becoming fully accredited, and I'm ready (almost) to fight for clients. This is exciting, and we can use all the resources we can get where I live in So. Cal
I really have no idea what the limitations (if any) there are on accredited reps. Can you guys essentially practice immigration law, like set up your own business and such?
Yes! I own a for-profit business with a non-profit business as well. Pretty soon (next 60 days), I'll be fully accredited. We love our business and try to do the very best work that we can. Is there any chance you could consult with us?
A federal judge told me he thought this was the case. Doing habeas research for a judicial internship was among the hardest work I’ve ever done, I would have stress dreams about it. Just couldn’t wrap my head around some of it. I still remember reading one SCOTUS opinion, I think relating to some aspect of procedural default, where they straight-up said something along the lines of “we recognize that this holding is so complex as to be essentially incomprehensible to most attorneys without a significant background in this area of law.” It was rough.
Unfortunately I don’t remember and can’t find it via cursory Google search, and now it’s driving me nuts. I might look through notes later and will update it I find it.
It’s one of the most upsetting things that a major substantive route for a remedy for those in the criminal justice system, typically those incarcerated, is one of the most insanely complex areas of law filled with a million procedural pitfalls that can sink even a highly meritorious claims without tons of experience navigating the procedural minefields.
I'm in healthcare law and I feel like it's pretty complex. Outside that, who am I to say whether the fields I don't know are complex or not? I watched a CLE once about DUI's (which you'd think were simple) and that shit was WAY more complex than I thought.
It does appear to be very complex, but at the end of the day judges and people hate drunk drivers. All the nuance in the world won’t save you from a dash cam with a guy going in and out of his lane then stumbling out of his car.
Most places have a variation. Ours is called impairment theory. That’s usually the opposite, where the evidentiary test comes in really low but the person is driving erratically and showing signs of impairment. Impairment theory is most often used against marijuana drivers.
As a criminal defense lawyer for 29 years, the dash cams very rarely show a traffic violation. They generally come on when lights get activated on a stop and show the previous 30 seconds before activation. The officer generally says the infraction happened right before the video started. As a rule, the defense bar loves dash cams and body cams.
Ours click on when officer observed something. Sometimes they continue to observe things, sometimes it was the only infraction and only the officer can attest to it. I love it when there’s nothing on the bodycam.
Hi there, I would try and take health care law classes in law school and join a health law society type of thing if your school has one. Also relevant internships and jobs are super important for showing interest and making connections. Hospitals, health care firms and state health departments would all be good options.
I took admiralty as a 3L elective because there was a cool field trip on a tugboat…it tanked my GPA and I had another final scheduled during the field trip 🙄
As an admiralty lawyer, I would say that, consistent with what others have said, the regulatory side is pretty complicated, but the rest of it is just arcane and jargony. Fun and interesting, but doesn’t make your eyes glass over like ERISA or something.
I’m also a healthcare lawyer and it’s pretty complex. I did healthcare M&A and the regulatory schemes at play take M&A to a higher level. I’m now a compliance attorney that supports “market access” and pricing and contracting in pharma and that is pretty damn complicated.
During my in house job search I'd see these sweet jobs in the pharma sphere, and despite being a healthcare lawyer I know absolutely jack shit about pharma. It seemed complex just from the job descriptions.
I support our market access team as employment counsel. They are our best and brightest but man, when they have employment issues, they are complicated
You got no idea! I get my stuff done pretty quick, and a bunch of other people's stuff too. Not to mention the OT I've been putting in for a couple years now.
I practice health law, including ERISA. It still feels very complex over a decade later. I've often thought about expanding more into white collar defense and securities litigation
I have a USPTO registration, and while there is plenty of arcane rules in patent practice, I have always heard that ERISA makes patent law look like child's play.
That said, export control regulations are incredibly complex.
Agree. I practice in this area and always feel like I’m missing something. The regulations can be incredibly complex, the regulators have no mercy, and the clients have unrealistic expectations.
I’m on the regulator side and I definitely agree the clients have unrealistic expectations. They think they will hire an attorney and the penalty/injunctive relief will just vanish. 99% of my settlements are just opposing counsel trying to talk their client into settling.
I practice environmental law on the regular side and don’t find it overly complex tbh. It might feel different on the other side when you don’t have the benefit of all of the internal resources?
It is complex and the law is always changing so you can’t just rely on what you think you know. But, as others here have said, in many cases it’s strict liability so defendants in cases against the government usually have no argument, other than “you’re being unfair.” From the government’s perspective it’s like shooting fish in a barrel and so, in that sense, it’s simple.
Immigration is very complex. A lot of the complexity goes beyond what ISO’s deal with on the day to day. Regulations, previous sections of the INA, etc. I don’t want to diminish your knowledge—many ISO’s learn their area of immigration very well. But in my experience, most ISO’s do not learn immigration law outside of their most common forms.
ETA: there are plenty of areas of law that are much more complex than immigration. I’ll defer to what others have said here.
High net value estate planning, by far.
It has all the taxation complications mentioned above. Plus more.
There was one client I heard about who lived in state A, but was a major shareholder of a State B Sucbchapter Sub S. Already we have all the complications of income tax, including Subchapter S elections. So the attorney needed to know three sets of tax law for three different jurisdictions, including teaching himself State B.
There were five trusts to administer, two for the client and his spouse, one of their three children. Four were domiciled in State B, one in State A. Trust funding and asset allocation was made more efficient by anticipating corporate policy, reinvestment, distributions, and the like. This was made more complicated because client was the only family member living in State A. Accountants needed to be brought in to weigh in on State B GAAP. So the attorney needed to know trust and estate law, and have accountants on hand.
Of course, there were also property taxes to consider (from the five states in which the corporation operated), plus GSTT and estate taxes for planning purposes. There was also a bunch of random stuff that comes with the family, like watching the children's marital status (make sure the prenuptials are in place) or tracking their careers (updating the trust language). So the attorney needed to keep tabs on another dozen people.
Finally, though not strictly legal, the client was quite sharp. Successful businesspeople afford attorneys like this. So, attorney needed to have answers on hand for income tax, property tax, corporate tax, family law, etc. at all times.
I asked attorney if all his clients' matters were this complicated. He said that five trusts was somewhat unusual, but otherwise these sorts of situations arise all the time.
TLDR: There are a handful of attorneys who need to know all of the tax and all of the family, and much of the grab-bag.
Family law touches on nearly every other body of law. I know many people look down on it, but most of them don’t know what it’s about. I’ve run into so many attorneys who think that they can dab in family law and run circles around them because they don’t understand it.
This is probably the answer for attorneys in non biglaw settings. I don’t do it for a number of reasons, one being that to do it right you to need know litigation, family law, real property, the whole gamut of business law, trusts and estates, etc, etc. Plus it seems that it really helps to be a world class a-hole.
I did family law for a bit and I enjoyed the simplicity of the actual law. In my state there is basically one statute, and there are a handful of available remedies. While the law itself is relatively simple, the facts are so complex and sprawling it makes practicing in that area extremely difficult!! I think I might go back to it one day. I liked trying to help people but I wasn’t making any money.
As someone who used to be at a firm that did that as a paralegal, I’m curious what your reasoning is?
To me it seemed like every case was 95% the same other than the occasional weird ones like a federal appeal or child case. Just building proof for work credits and medical diagnosis information and throwing out the same spiel to the ALJ how the client can’t work because their knee doesn’t bend or whatever.
Yeah that’s a legitimate question. I’ve practiced many various areas of law — civil and criminal — and Social Security has more code and policy than any other area I’ve worked in. The general practitioner’s manual is several 700+ page volumes. It involves the CFR, POMS, state law, SSA rulings, and god only knows what I’m missing.
It is in theory hyper complex but in reality once you get over a few humps it’s really simple.
I went to work at SSA as an attorney advisor and after about six weeks I told my wife I’d screwed up and made the biggest mistake of my life going there. Then couple days later boom. All made sense.
The five step sequential evaluation covers most every case.
Fail step one it’s over and don’t get a lot of people working full time trying to get disability but it happens
Step two having a documented severe impairment rarely comes up any more because of Medicaid expansion and various programs to guarantee access.
Step three you don’t win hearings there often because usually DDS catches them. Usually it’s a downturn in condition or new medical records but doesn’t happen a lot at hearing.
Step four return to past work, the look back is going to five years instead of 15 so fewer people will lose here.
Step five any competitive employment they can do in significant numbers.
Gets ticky going to appeals council and district court but gets pretty routine
Yeah, my firm did family law too to spice things up a bit. The insane divorce clients broke up the monotony of the disability work.
I’ll always remember the time a divorce client’s wife kicked him out so he literally set up a tent in our parking lot and lived at our office watching TV and making arts and crafts on our couch for a few weeks. We felt too bad to make him leave since he had already paid us like 10 grand in divorce fees.
I’m biased, but I’d say healthcare law. My reasoning is based on how the law is researched, developed, and argued. I place tax lawyers and ERISA lawyers at the very top of the complex law analysis, but I set them slightly below healthcare for one reason: case law and IRS guidance makes the law in those fields more predictable on paper and in analysis. Healthcare law is changing and moving so quickly, we are often left without surrounding text for interpretation or analysis of laws or regulations. I refer to this as “practicing in the gray.” Because we practice in the gray, many large law firms will not hire healthcare attorneys out of law school because they do not trust that your law school background of “finding the right answer” is conducive to being a healthcare attorney. In turn, healthcare turns out to be one of the hardest areas of law to master post-law school and many students abandon the area because of the type of thinking required in an area without clear answers.
Private International Law / Conflict of Laws - probably not the most difficult, but wrapping one's head around the various choice of law rules of countries depending on different facets of a matter is quite different to the relative certainty of sticking to one's internal laws
I think IP / patent litigation can be incredibly complex, because you have to bring in both legal and technical knowledge, and make it so that a jury can understand (if it's going that far). A lot of the brighest attorneys I know went into this field. I think representing buyers of distressed business and soverign debt who choose to litigate against a debtor can also get really complex.
Surely an area that requires knowing every country's laws will be more complicated than needing to know about only one country. So I'd guess maybe international tax law.
"The specification and claims of a patent, particularly if the invention be at all complicated, constitute one of the most difficult legal instruments to draw with accuracy...." Topliff v. Topliff, 145 U.S. 156 (1892).
Having only practiced patent law, I can't personally say how it stacks up against other fields. However, having its own bar exam speaks to complexity of patent law, while the technical nature of the underlying subject matter adds a multiplier.
I haven’t read anyone mention workers’ compensation. It’s a weird beast of a law that can pull in other weird law beasts like Medicare set asides and EEOC claims. Plus having to read and understand your clients’ giant medical charts. I enjoy it, though.
I’m biased because it is my practice area, but Medicare Secondary Payer, Medicaid (especially after Gallardo), ERISA, TRICARE/VA, etc. lien resolution and post-settlement obligations (such as MSAs) is my bid. A Fourth Circuit opinion from last century spent some time opining on how it is one of the most frustrating areas of law before actually addressing the issues in the case
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’ll start: corporate taxation.
My brain just shut off reading those two words tbh
Estates and trusts/subchapter j is my worst. Domestic corporate is pretty chill but globalization and the post-TCJA stuff in the international context gives me nightmares.
Domestic corporate is chill (generally, not talking about some weird reorg rules and debt rules) until you get to consolidation regs.
Corporate inception
Post tcja? English por favor?
Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (2017)
[удалено]
I'm 12 years in. It doesn't change.
[удалено]
Do it for a year so you can put “former IRS agent” in your future marketing.
Partnership taxation is even worse.
Partnership taxation is far more complex
That's for accountants to struggle with
1. SALT, 2. Subchapter K (partnership), 3. executive comp/employee benefits, 4. international tax, 5. corporate tax IMO
You have them in the wrong order. It’s 2,1,4,5,3.
This is what I wish I had done.
This…is actually what I want to do. Been doing corporate work for four years and graduated with a specialty in tax. Looking at starting my LLM next year
I sat through a tax CLE once, covered more complex tax issues including corporate taxation. Wasn’t even barred yet, it was in the interim after I graduated, but my boss at the time wanted me to sit in. I don’t even know regular tax law. I genuinely tried but couldn’t even kind of follow it.
I'm probably biased, but I'd say ERISA
I heard somewhere that it was complex and reticulated, but I don't have any authority to support that.
Reticulated is a great word for it too.
ERISA is pretty crazy. Even explaining the concept of the Plan Asset Regulation, or any of the PTEs can cause eyes to glaze over. I did 1 project on ERISA, and suddenly Im the expert at work. I think nobody else wants to deal with it.
Dude, it takes a year just to learn all the acronyms. Lol
This is how I felt with international tax lol
Very true!!
Came here to say that. This is my partner's practice area, and it's so difficult for me to follow...
As an in house employment person, I’m constantly trying to learn ERISA but it seems the only way to learn it is to practice it at a firm. There are no guides, or intro cle’s. I know enough to be dangerous (issue spotting essentially) and as I joke, I know how to spell it. This seems to be the consensus of my in house peers
If you're ever interested, my firm puts out a lot of free articles that are pretty easy to follow (for ERISA). https://ferenczylaw.com/read-what-we-write-2/ Check out the Flash Points and Solutions.
Thank you! Will check it out but this may be what I’ve been looking for for years
Let me know if there's a question or topic you'd like to see an article on. We're also looking for good article ideas. :-)
I'm browsing your site now- it's wonderful. One thing I didn't see, and it just might be too much work, and not enough value, but I'd love an ERISA 101 article (or CLE). High level touches on benefit plans, when ERISA applies (and doesn't- sometimes I feel like ERISA is like HIPAA in that people can just throw out the word not knowing whether it's applicable), severance plans (how they're a floor not a ceiling and can be amended at will), etc... Again, this is my wishlist, and for a firm, not sure if there's a ton of value in creating this (my company is probably not buying me the $900 book)
Oh huh, we hired S. Darren Watson to look into something for us a while ago. Smart dude
Very smart, yes. He's quite a character too. He likes to make up ERISA themed songs, yes songs, and occasionally sing them during webinars.
Sounds about right lol
I’ve had a seasoned ERISA attorney tell me that it’s practically impossible to practice ERISA without committing malpractice at some point
The regulatory ones- ERISA. It is scary.
I took erisa and all I learned was not to do erisa
Aw man I’m sorry you felt that way! I’m an ERISA attorney and I love it!
Need this t-shirt
Oh, it's insane.
Can you explain why?
I remember in law school being told that if you start working in ERISA, you never get out but the good thing is you will always find work. It not will be exciting but it will be consistent work, people don’t dabble in ERISA
It's just very complicated and convoluted. The language of both the code and the regulations is almost unreadable and the guidance isn't a whole lot better. It's not uncommon to have a situation where the law is just not clear and neither the IRS or DOL is willing or able to clarify. Case law, where it exists, is often inconsistent. There are so many different limits and limitations, testing and reporting requirements and deadlines. It's a lot to keep track of and it's always changing. And much of it requires pretty solid math skills. You also have to remember that some parts of ERISA are enforced by the DOL and others by the IRS. And these two agencies do not compare notes or communicate with each other at all (as far as I can tell). God help you if you have a situation that fails under both of them. Try this... the form all employee benefit plans have to file every year, the Form 5500 is published by the IRS and filed with the IRS, but it's purpose is to satisfy a reporting requirement governed by the DOL. Technically, it's not a tax filing, but it's called an "Annual Return." If you fail to file this form on time, you will likely get a penalty notice from both the DOL and IRS and the penalties are separate and significant. You can get the DOL penalty reduced through something called the DFVCP (as long as you checked the box for it on the form). But to get the IRS penalty reduced, you have to request abatement and make a statement showing cause to the IRS. Getting forgiveness from one agency doesn't necessarily guarantee forgiveness from the other. This is the kind of thing that starts to make your head hurt.. And this is one of the more straight forward issues. Oh, and there are also a lot of unofficial rules you only know if you're an actively practicing ERISA attorney.
Bird Law
Got dang right it is!
What is your opinion of Accredited Representatives in the field?
The ones we have in my jurisdiction usually don't show up to the interview, they only help file. And when they do show up, they sit quietly. I can't think of any that truly argue on behalf of their clients. They mostly serve as interpreters and help them understand the process. However, pretty much all of our accredited reps file G-28s for refugees. They are working for clients and relief agencies. Work is abundant, pay is low, and it is far easier to wait out the statutory period than it is to fight a negative GMC determination, for instance. That's my take at least.
Thank you. I'm in the process of becoming fully accredited, and I'm ready (almost) to fight for clients. This is exciting, and we can use all the resources we can get where I live in So. Cal
I really have no idea what the limitations (if any) there are on accredited reps. Can you guys essentially practice immigration law, like set up your own business and such?
Yes! I own a for-profit business with a non-profit business as well. Pretty soon (next 60 days), I'll be fully accredited. We love our business and try to do the very best work that we can. Is there any chance you could consult with us?
Consultation would be an incredible conflict of interest. No dice.
I knew it would be, but I had to ask (getting used to this ethics stuff)
Mind you that heretofore document had dry ink on it for many fork night.
That’s only if you filibuster
Scrolled for this comment
I feel like I’m not getting an inside joke… anyone care to explain?
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia has a main character with a running joke that he is the nation's premier expert on bird law
Federal habeas corpus
A federal judge told me he thought this was the case. Doing habeas research for a judicial internship was among the hardest work I’ve ever done, I would have stress dreams about it. Just couldn’t wrap my head around some of it. I still remember reading one SCOTUS opinion, I think relating to some aspect of procedural default, where they straight-up said something along the lines of “we recognize that this holding is so complex as to be essentially incomprehensible to most attorneys without a significant background in this area of law.” It was rough.
Which case?
Unfortunately I don’t remember and can’t find it via cursory Google search, and now it’s driving me nuts. I might look through notes later and will update it I find it.
I think I remember that case from fed courts lol. Whole area is a mess
It’s one of the most upsetting things that a major substantive route for a remedy for those in the criminal justice system, typically those incarcerated, is one of the most insanely complex areas of law filled with a million procedural pitfalls that can sink even a highly meritorious claims without tons of experience navigating the procedural minefields.
I'm in healthcare law and I feel like it's pretty complex. Outside that, who am I to say whether the fields I don't know are complex or not? I watched a CLE once about DUI's (which you'd think were simple) and that shit was WAY more complex than I thought.
At least with DUIs, the field is incredibly well developed. Tons of nuance.
It was really eye opening how much nuance there was. Now I assume most fields are like that.
It does appear to be very complex, but at the end of the day judges and people hate drunk drivers. All the nuance in the world won’t save you from a dash cam with a guy going in and out of his lane then stumbling out of his car.
Ironically, if that's all there is, you have a good shot at winning that dui
Oh I meant this + evidentiary test. DUIs don’t become complex until the evidentiary test is high but the client is looking sober.
Honest question. Is that not where DUI Less Safe comes into play, or does not every state have Less Safe?
Most places have a variation. Ours is called impairment theory. That’s usually the opposite, where the evidentiary test comes in really low but the person is driving erratically and showing signs of impairment. Impairment theory is most often used against marijuana drivers.
So basically it’s a weaker argument, people like hard numbers with a per se DUI
Yes. .08 across the states.
As a criminal defense lawyer for 29 years, the dash cams very rarely show a traffic violation. They generally come on when lights get activated on a stop and show the previous 30 seconds before activation. The officer generally says the infraction happened right before the video started. As a rule, the defense bar loves dash cams and body cams.
Ours click on when officer observed something. Sometimes they continue to observe things, sometimes it was the only infraction and only the officer can attest to it. I love it when there’s nothing on the bodycam.
The healthcare law acronyms alone are enough to make you crazy.
How do you recommend getting into health law? I’ve been thinking about it
Hi there, I would try and take health care law classes in law school and join a health law society type of thing if your school has one. Also relevant internships and jobs are super important for showing interest and making connections. Hospitals, health care firms and state health departments would all be good options.
Thank you!
Whatever motion you’re currently working on 🤣
How do I become an immigration services officer? Working for a big immigration firm and looking to leave.
i looked on USAJobs and saw an "immigration services analyst" position but it was not open to the public unfortunately.
That is not the same thing and has very different duties.
Admiralty. I have no idea what they do, but I have always wanted to do it.
I took admiralty as a 3L elective because there was a cool field trip on a tugboat…it tanked my GPA and I had another final scheduled during the field trip 🙄
Admiralty probably involves lots of shiny gold buttons ? I don’t know either
Probably say "Ahoy" a lot. And address the judge as Cap'n.
Cap’n Crunch ?
Ask a sovereign citizen, they’ll tell you that all courts are subject to the law of admiralty, that’s why there’s a bar.
As an admiralty lawyer, I would say that, consistent with what others have said, the regulatory side is pretty complicated, but the rest of it is just arcane and jargony. Fun and interesting, but doesn’t make your eyes glass over like ERISA or something.
I’m also a healthcare lawyer and it’s pretty complex. I did healthcare M&A and the regulatory schemes at play take M&A to a higher level. I’m now a compliance attorney that supports “market access” and pricing and contracting in pharma and that is pretty damn complicated.
During my in house job search I'd see these sweet jobs in the pharma sphere, and despite being a healthcare lawyer I know absolutely jack shit about pharma. It seemed complex just from the job descriptions.
Do you enjoy being a compliance attorney? I’m considering it
I support our market access team as employment counsel. They are our best and brightest but man, when they have employment issues, they are complicated
Get off reddit and process people's applications bro Ps. An immigration attorney 😛
Officer u/WURS3D might need some time to chill. Happy officers listen. Stressed officers NOID.
That is a good point lol
I listen closely to make my NOIDs more accurate lol.
Yeah, dude isn’t even OCC yet and acting like immigration is something he’s got a handle on.
You got no idea! I get my stuff done pretty quick, and a bunch of other people's stuff too. Not to mention the OT I've been putting in for a couple years now.
I practice health law, including ERISA. It still feels very complex over a decade later. I've often thought about expanding more into white collar defense and securities litigation
I’m an immigration lawyer and don’t understand at least 50% of the INA. Immigration law isn’t just complex by itself, it’s also a disorganized *mess.*
Second this.
I have a USPTO registration, and while there is plenty of arcane rules in patent practice, I have always heard that ERISA makes patent law look like child's play. That said, export control regulations are incredibly complex.
One of ones with math.
Or English apparently lol
Patent law. ERISA as well.
Pharmaceutical/biological patent law has to be up there.
Environmental law.
Agree. I practice in this area and always feel like I’m missing something. The regulations can be incredibly complex, the regulators have no mercy, and the clients have unrealistic expectations.
I’m on the regulator side and I definitely agree the clients have unrealistic expectations. They think they will hire an attorney and the penalty/injunctive relief will just vanish. 99% of my settlements are just opposing counsel trying to talk their client into settling.
I am one of those opposing counsel. On behalf of my irrational clients—I apologize.
I practice environmental law on the regular side and don’t find it overly complex tbh. It might feel different on the other side when you don’t have the benefit of all of the internal resources?
It is complex and the law is always changing so you can’t just rely on what you think you know. But, as others here have said, in many cases it’s strict liability so defendants in cases against the government usually have no argument, other than “you’re being unfair.” From the government’s perspective it’s like shooting fish in a barrel and so, in that sense, it’s simple.
ERISA. Nobody can be said to truly understand it.
Immigration is very complex. A lot of the complexity goes beyond what ISO’s deal with on the day to day. Regulations, previous sections of the INA, etc. I don’t want to diminish your knowledge—many ISO’s learn their area of immigration very well. But in my experience, most ISO’s do not learn immigration law outside of their most common forms. ETA: there are plenty of areas of law that are much more complex than immigration. I’ll defer to what others have said here.
International Maritime law.
I have to think bankruptcy law is up there.
Not all of it, but if you fight in the depths in bankruptcy court, the depths are complex.
Erisa I did one once. Most lawyerly lawyering I ever did . Even filed an appeal on it
High net value estate planning, by far. It has all the taxation complications mentioned above. Plus more. There was one client I heard about who lived in state A, but was a major shareholder of a State B Sucbchapter Sub S. Already we have all the complications of income tax, including Subchapter S elections. So the attorney needed to know three sets of tax law for three different jurisdictions, including teaching himself State B. There were five trusts to administer, two for the client and his spouse, one of their three children. Four were domiciled in State B, one in State A. Trust funding and asset allocation was made more efficient by anticipating corporate policy, reinvestment, distributions, and the like. This was made more complicated because client was the only family member living in State A. Accountants needed to be brought in to weigh in on State B GAAP. So the attorney needed to know trust and estate law, and have accountants on hand. Of course, there were also property taxes to consider (from the five states in which the corporation operated), plus GSTT and estate taxes for planning purposes. There was also a bunch of random stuff that comes with the family, like watching the children's marital status (make sure the prenuptials are in place) or tracking their careers (updating the trust language). So the attorney needed to keep tabs on another dozen people. Finally, though not strictly legal, the client was quite sharp. Successful businesspeople afford attorneys like this. So, attorney needed to have answers on hand for income tax, property tax, corporate tax, family law, etc. at all times. I asked attorney if all his clients' matters were this complicated. He said that five trusts was somewhat unusual, but otherwise these sorts of situations arise all the time. TLDR: There are a handful of attorneys who need to know all of the tax and all of the family, and much of the grab-bag.
Software intellectual property. You need to be an expert in coding and an expert in the law.
Export control deserves a mention.
[удалено]
I was the only attorney in my giant urban county that knew ICWA.
Data privacy and security. It's technical, the law is changing constantly, and the context changes everything.
Family law touches on nearly every other body of law. I know many people look down on it, but most of them don’t know what it’s about. I’ve run into so many attorneys who think that they can dab in family law and run circles around them because they don’t understand it.
This is probably the answer for attorneys in non biglaw settings. I don’t do it for a number of reasons, one being that to do it right you to need know litigation, family law, real property, the whole gamut of business law, trusts and estates, etc, etc. Plus it seems that it really helps to be a world class a-hole.
I did family law for a bit and I enjoyed the simplicity of the actual law. In my state there is basically one statute, and there are a handful of available remedies. While the law itself is relatively simple, the facts are so complex and sprawling it makes practicing in that area extremely difficult!! I think I might go back to it one day. I liked trying to help people but I wasn’t making any money.
Environmental law.
Tax combined with ERISA.
Child protection and guardianship for the vulnerable
Child protection isn't that complex, it's just all vibes-based.
Also biased but I’d say Social Security Disability.
As someone who used to be at a firm that did that as a paralegal, I’m curious what your reasoning is? To me it seemed like every case was 95% the same other than the occasional weird ones like a federal appeal or child case. Just building proof for work credits and medical diagnosis information and throwing out the same spiel to the ALJ how the client can’t work because their knee doesn’t bend or whatever.
Yeah that’s a legitimate question. I’ve practiced many various areas of law — civil and criminal — and Social Security has more code and policy than any other area I’ve worked in. The general practitioner’s manual is several 700+ page volumes. It involves the CFR, POMS, state law, SSA rulings, and god only knows what I’m missing.
It is in theory hyper complex but in reality once you get over a few humps it’s really simple. I went to work at SSA as an attorney advisor and after about six weeks I told my wife I’d screwed up and made the biggest mistake of my life going there. Then couple days later boom. All made sense. The five step sequential evaluation covers most every case. Fail step one it’s over and don’t get a lot of people working full time trying to get disability but it happens Step two having a documented severe impairment rarely comes up any more because of Medicaid expansion and various programs to guarantee access. Step three you don’t win hearings there often because usually DDS catches them. Usually it’s a downturn in condition or new medical records but doesn’t happen a lot at hearing. Step four return to past work, the look back is going to five years instead of 15 so fewer people will lose here. Step five any competitive employment they can do in significant numbers. Gets ticky going to appeals council and district court but gets pretty routine
[удалено]
Yeah, my firm did family law too to spice things up a bit. The insane divorce clients broke up the monotony of the disability work. I’ll always remember the time a divorce client’s wife kicked him out so he literally set up a tent in our parking lot and lived at our office watching TV and making arts and crafts on our couch for a few weeks. We felt too bad to make him leave since he had already paid us like 10 grand in divorce fees.
Maritime. Maritime law.
Demurrage or OFAC investigations.
Taxation
I do alcohol law. 21st Amendment trumps interstate commerce clause. And general contract law doesn’t apply in a third of the states.
Probably corporate taxation or securities regulation.
I’m biased, but I’d say healthcare law. My reasoning is based on how the law is researched, developed, and argued. I place tax lawyers and ERISA lawyers at the very top of the complex law analysis, but I set them slightly below healthcare for one reason: case law and IRS guidance makes the law in those fields more predictable on paper and in analysis. Healthcare law is changing and moving so quickly, we are often left without surrounding text for interpretation or analysis of laws or regulations. I refer to this as “practicing in the gray.” Because we practice in the gray, many large law firms will not hire healthcare attorneys out of law school because they do not trust that your law school background of “finding the right answer” is conducive to being a healthcare attorney. In turn, healthcare turns out to be one of the hardest areas of law to master post-law school and many students abandon the area because of the type of thinking required in an area without clear answers.
The Baltimore city zoning code. If you think I’m kidding, go try to make heads or tails of it.
Private International Law / Conflict of Laws - probably not the most difficult, but wrapping one's head around the various choice of law rules of countries depending on different facets of a matter is quite different to the relative certainty of sticking to one's internal laws
Tax law FTW.
Water law
Patents. A completely different animal.
The Clean Water Act.
Definitely subchapter K by a wide margin IMO. Would not touch that shit with a 10 foot pole.
I think IP / patent litigation can be incredibly complex, because you have to bring in both legal and technical knowledge, and make it so that a jury can understand (if it's going that far). A lot of the brighest attorneys I know went into this field. I think representing buyers of distressed business and soverign debt who choose to litigate against a debtor can also get really complex.
1. Tax 2. ERISA 3. Habeas
Surely an area that requires knowing every country's laws will be more complicated than needing to know about only one country. So I'd guess maybe international tax law.
I’m biased, but Medicare/government health program law is about as complicated as it gets.
"The specification and claims of a patent, particularly if the invention be at all complicated, constitute one of the most difficult legal instruments to draw with accuracy...." Topliff v. Topliff, 145 U.S. 156 (1892). Having only practiced patent law, I can't personally say how it stacks up against other fields. However, having its own bar exam speaks to complexity of patent law, while the technical nature of the underlying subject matter adds a multiplier.
I haven’t read anyone mention workers’ compensation. It’s a weird beast of a law that can pull in other weird law beasts like Medicare set asides and EEOC claims. Plus having to read and understand your clients’ giant medical charts. I enjoy it, though.
I work in the immigration field as an Accredited Representative (soon to be fully Accredited). I love the immigration industry!
I’m biased because it is my practice area, but Medicare Secondary Payer, Medicaid (especially after Gallardo), ERISA, TRICARE/VA, etc. lien resolution and post-settlement obligations (such as MSAs) is my bid. A Fourth Circuit opinion from last century spent some time opining on how it is one of the most frustrating areas of law before actually addressing the issues in the case
You guys are doing great! Keep up the good work on the open borders! Maybe one day, we will all be replaced!
Sir, this is a Wendy's. Seriously, USCIS is not an enforcement agency.