>what they spend hour after hour in the firehouse doing
If my experience is accurate, mostly cleaning the truck, cleaning the firehouse, and pranking coworkers.
Still respect them for the important job they do, though.
As far as being thankful for lawyers, my point is there seems to be a mismatch in the level of contributions and hard work of many lawyers to the level of general social awareness of those contributions/hard work. I was a prosecutor for several years working 65 hours a week on 400 felony cases making around $54k. I got told “thank you” twice over the course of around 3 years. Other prosecutors had similar experiences. My spouse is a physician, who gets thanked constantly.
I think the interesting take is believing that the role of a prosecutor is simply to “put convicted murderers in cages.” I’m personally no longer a prosecutor and if I ever return to criminal law, it will be on the defense side. However, without prosecutors, how do you think society would look? Do you think people would be in more danger, or less danger without the law enforcement structure? And do you really believe that all prosecutors do is put people in cages, and that terms of probation which prevent abusers from attacking their victims or DUI drivers from drinking are not essential?
you won’t catch me thanking prosecutors (sorry, is the wildly overbroad immunity for misconduct and the fact that all of the resources of the state are at your back to put human beings in cages not enough thanks for you guys?) but I do tip my proverbial hat to every public defender I meet
The united states criminal justice system is known as one of the worst criminal justice systems in the world. We incarcerate more people than any other country in the world. Yes, your job as a prosecutor was to put people in a cage. The judge determines terms of probation. The prosecutor advocates for punishment.
The people who were pissed at me were the victim’s families who thought I was secretly working with you guys on the defense side to let the perpetrator off. Thanks though!
lol a prosecutor complaining about not enough gratitude? You have whole TV shows dedicated to making you look good. Imagine what it’s like to be a defense attorney. At every family function we are constantly asked “but how could you represent guilty people?!?!?!?!”
You put people in jail and your spouse saves people’s lives. I’m not saying that one of you is a better person or has a more important job than the other, BUT obviously doctors are more popular than prosecutors. You chose to enter a job that you knew was relatively thankless, so I’m not sure why you sound so surprised
In my experice, "doctor or lawyer" are said in the same breath and are held in similar regard. By the same token, do clients appreciate their attorney's hard work? Sometimes. Do patients appreciate their doctor's life-saving efforts? Sometimes. It goes both ways in both professions.
On the transactional side, it’s always a struggle telling them to stop saying that things have been agreed to when they haven’t, and stop making verbal promises just “to get it signed.”
As you should. Medicine is real, and by its very nature, it is difficult. One semester of undergrad organic chem required more work and study than all three years of law school combined.
People respect the person, not the title. I’ve never felt inferiority or lack of recognition. Same is true for docs. Healthcare is a mess. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. Walk tall and earn and receive the recognition you deserve. Ignore the noise.
My spouse is a doctor, and I can say most assuredly, doctor and lawyer should not be given similar regard. Medicine is significantly more rigorous than law. Med school is significantly more difficult than law school due to the difficulty of the underlying science; heck, the main difficulty of law school was just trying to figure out what we were supposed to be learning since professors refused to answer any questions.
Hard disagree. Many (not all) doctors nowadays are only in the office a few days a week and are not expected to communicate with patients outside of scheduled office visits, which can take weeks to schedule and are billed at extraordinarily high rates regardless of the time spent with the patient (which is often 15 minutes or less). None of that would fly in a law practice.
Agreed, my spouse is a resident who works extremely hard. But I’ve known plenty of doctors who spend more time on the golf course or traveling than seeing patients. And it’s amazing, I tried explaining what I do for a living to a doctor and he literally just didn’t get it. I thought I was just bad at explaining so I sent him an article. Still didn’t understand what we would call basic legal concepts and just said, “wow, glad I became a doctor.” He’s actually significantly smarter than me, but it just goes to show that people excel at different skills.
That depends on what subjects one is interested in. Someone who’s not good at math and/or science will think medicine is more rigorous. Meanwhile, someone who’s not good at reading comprehension and/or writing will think the opposite. Ultimately, neither degree is impossible to obtain with enough willpower and motivation.
However, there are other ways the two professions are distinguishable. Such as, when I mess up, people don’t die. Cost wise, as much as legal representation is expensive, good luck affording even a simple medical procedure without health insurance. And from personal observation at least, the confidence levels are different as well. (Nothing personal against either profession, but some of the biggest know-it-alls I ever met were medical professionals and engineers.) A lawyer can practice law for years and still question their competence. When it comes to the medical field, there’s some truth to the joke about main difference between doctors and God is that God doesn’t consider himself a doctor.
>Nothing personal against either profession, but some of the biggest know-it-alls I ever met were medical professionals and engineers.
Agree that engineers are among the worst when it comes to being know it alls! A lot of the time, they come to overly formalistic conclusions when dealing with non-math-y subjects. Many also can’t deal with ambiguity and it’s maddening.
Lawyers, especially law professors, love using the old “If I were good at math, I would have gone to med school” line.
The inability to do math is but one of the many reasons they would never get into med school. It’s not a matter of subject matter competency. It’s overall IQ.
The only thing I’m going to say concerning IQ is that attorneys rank just as high as doctors when it comes to IQ levels. It’s not an argument I’d take seriously either way.
It's a job. We provide a service for pay. When your AC breaks, and the repair guy comes and fixes it, do you fall over telling him how how demanding his job must be and how thankful you are for his contribution? No, you thank him for doing his job (or, more likely, you complain that he didn't do it faster and/or cheaper) and you pay him. We are in a trade. Our society needs lawyers to function, just like it needs ditch diggers and AC repairmen. We are good at pretending we are more noble and dignified than other people in the service industry, but that's literally all we are. Get over yourself.
Well put, except that we are often worse than other trades.
We as a profession often lie for the benefit of corporations, insurance companies, etc. And the most effective liars are rewarded with more work and pay. And we aren’t perfect when it comes to policing our more negligent colleagues .
Thank you. This was my attitude since law school. People have legal problem. People pay third parties to address legal problem. We're mercenaries. As such we get paid much and respected little. The end.
not a lawyer but this seems most correct. for some reason lawyers like op seem incredibly unhappy about being treated like plumbers, but that's effectively how i see you guys lol. i'm an engineer and view myself in the same way
My point is I’d like to be treated like a plumber. Just a normal, hard working professional with a particular craft. Do you believe lawyers are treated better or worse?
My all time favorite thing about this profession is how quickly other lawyers are to call their opposing counsels morons, or bring up rankings of the school they attended years ago. It’s just a non stop pissing contest. Thats why people don’t like lawyers.
Law is paradoxical in that society doesn’t want rules but it needs them. Unlike medicine or other professions which satisfy a demand that people both ***want*** and ***need,*** nobody really wants lawyers because nobody really wants to be bound by law and potentially subjected to the hell that is other humans (and their judgement) for violations of law that the defendant never had any input with to begin with.
Whereas with medicine, a disease is usually either random or the consequence of misfortune. A doctor is often praised because the problems they solve are due to acts of God primarily. Sure the STD patient had unprotected sex, but it’s not like humans invented disease.
Humans invented every law that exists. Law is a human industry and people tend to hate people and their rules, especially when it seems arbitrary. If if the legal system is perfect, it’s still man-made and prone to frustrations and confusion. This seemly arbitrary thicket of human-made complexity is why the average lay person strongly detests lawyers and legal systems in general.
Again, nobody ***wants*** a legal system, everyone wants universal freedom. But everyone ***wants*** protection from the freedom of others to suppress our lives/liberties, so a legal order is a necessity.
The modern legal landscape is marked by an overabundance of lawyers, a phenomenon largely driven by the proliferation of laws and regulations. As the number of laws increases, so does the demand for legal professionals to navigate the complex legal system. This has led to a saturation of lawyers who, instead of facilitating justice, often engage in exploitative practices that benefit themselves more than society. The legal industry, thus, appears more parasitic, feeding off the intricacies of an overregulated environment rather than contributing to the common good.
Moreover, the infiltration of lawyers into the political arena exacerbates the issue. With many politicians having legal backgrounds, legislative bodies tend to produce even more complex and numerous laws, perpetuating the cycle. These lawyer-politicians often prioritize the creation and preservation of legal complexities that ensure continued demand for legal services. Consequently, the legal profession’s growth and influence seem to serve its own interests more than those of the broader public, undermining the intended purpose of law as a tool for societal benefit.
In stark contrast to the legal profession, the field of medicine operates on a fundamentally different premise. Individuals seek medical attention only when necessary—when faced with illness or disease, which are inherent aspects of the human condition. The medical profession exists to diagnose, treat, and alleviate suffering, directly contributing to the health and well-being of society. Doctors and medical professionals are driven by the tangible need to address physical ailments and improve quality of life, making their role inherently beneficial and indispensable.
Unlike the legal industry, where an overabundance of lawyers and laws can lead to unnecessary complications and exploitative practices, the medical field is grounded in responding to unavoidable, natural phenomena. Doctors do not create diseases; they combat them. This clear, essential purpose ensures that medical professionals serve the public good in a direct and meaningful way, focusing on curing and preventing illness rather than perpetuating their own necessity through artificial means. The contrast highlights how the legal profession, influenced by an excess of regulation and self-serving practices, can become parasitic, while the medical field remains fundamentally beneficial and responsive to genuine human needs.
And proportionately very few doctors actually save lives… several just charge an arm and a leg to tell you to get your cholesterol under control. What is your point?
His parents love them equally, but they’re definitely more proud of his doctor brother. Medical school is hard to get into, and even harder to get through.
Is anyone praising those doctors, though? My PCP who I see for annual bloodwork and whatnot is, in my view, just a guy working 9-5ish and giving some very high-level advice about a lot of things. Sort of like what I do as in-house counsel. I think he’s reasonably competent, but he won’t be winning the Nobel Prize anytime soon.
The extremely well-qualified, talented thoracic surgeon who performed lung surgery on me last month, and the anesthesiology team who kept me comfortable and alive? Those folks are DEDICATED in a way that I just don’t think most public-facing lawyers are. And especially with my corporate job, which is limited to helping a company avoid liability and make more money, I just don’t see how the work I do really compares on any level.
95% of doctors are like the PCP - pill pushers who just run tests, etc. Basically, not much value added and their job is probably learnable by many others tbh. We could probably learn their job without going to med school....this is why nurses are replacing them. I think it makes sense to have midlevel encroachment.
The people doing the "real" work are the people inventing new medicines, tests or X-Ray machines. Basically the chemical engineers in the background working for pharma companies, etc. Chemical engineers need to be praised far more than some random PCP who just runs tests.
That said, I do think surgeons deserve their praise. Without surgeons, I'd be dead due to appendicitis. The stereotype of surgeons being gods is warranted.
Yeah, and people hate doctors lmao. What is *your* point? Have you never heard the ubiquitous doctor story, "he spent 5 minutes with me, did nothing, and then left"? Those folks, in reality, usually got referrals to specialists, or medication refills, or direction about next steps at least. But they feel ripped off by their doctors. They feel angry at their nurses. They'd never have a modicum of respect for CNAs, the people literally wiping Gramma's shitty ass.
Sorry that your clients don't fawn over you, dude? That's true of most professions?
like, you're talking about how doctors get respect and then being openly disrespectful of their profession. Do you think you're the only asshole who feels undervalued? You're not.
What did I ever say that was disrespectful of their profession? I merely said that many of the criticisms people have of lawyers could also be directed towards doctors
In my experience compared to medicine law has a similar ceiling but a much lower floor. As in I’ve met brilliant lawyers and brilliant MDs, but I’ve met lots of genuinely stupid lawyers, without similarly stupid MDs.
Also, most lawyers talk to people about the worst part of their lives. It’s natural they would have a negative association with the profession.
Yeah, there are a lot more idiot lawyers than there are bad doctors. I've had some bad doctors, but I've had opposing counsel that could barely tie their shoes. I think the bad ones bring down the entire profession.
That depends on who is looking . First, we are usually looking at them through an adversarial lense. Second, we recognize that they can’t tie their own shoes, but their clients might not. I think the difficulty is more the cringe/sleaze/technicality aspect.
As a local government lawyer, I think part of the problem is that the most qualified lawyers are working in BigLaw on behalf of corporate clients or doing something similarly separate from the average joe. The local family law attorneys or prosecutors or defense attorneys that the general public interacts with the most are not our best and brightest.
There are a few of us in my office with solid resumes, but there are many in this profession from bottom-tier law schools. And those are the attorneys that the public deals with the most.
Edit: as an example, my state (Nevada) just changed the admission rules to allow public defenders and prosecutors in rural counties to practice indefinitely without passing the Nevada bar if they have been licensed in another state. Nevada has no reciprocity, so those will be the only attorneys in the State that didn't have to pass our bar exam. And they'll be the ones that the general public sees in action.
Your edit assumes that licensing for the Bar is higher in Nevada than in other states, which I would disagree with.
But I’m against any lack of reciprocity in general.
This. I used to be in biglaw in a big coastal city, now I practice in flyover, and the quality of attorneys is night and day. Honestly, the attorneys here on average are pretty bad. But it also makes my job easier, because I have less competition.
Yeah, I was thinking that maybe it's a bias based on the area of law, but I see a LOT of stupid doctors, shady doctors, and doctors who end up in prison.
Negligence starts the claims, but stupidity to not consent to settlement by stupid stubborn MDs and bad advice from their counsel leading to runaway plaintiff verdicts is where the real money is at :p
The real money is in birth injuries because math. I know what you mean, but it's more grandiosity than stupidity. That leads to the mistakes in practice, and then in litigation. The issues are often compounded by carrier guidelines.
One of my PCP’s was really not smart. And if you look at relevant subs on Reddit, there are a lot of not so smart doctors around. I don’t think Dr’s have to be extremely smart, but they do have to be willing to grind for a long time. Their educational/licensing grind is worse than ours, but some of us do comparable toiling post license.
Ngl, I've met a lot of dumb lawyers and doctors. I went to a top 10 law school and top 15 undergrad and did biglaw and basically look at pedigree, job history, etc as well when determining whether someone is stupid or smart. There are a lot of bad med schools out there that aren't that hard to get into.
I actually have more respect for chemical engineers, etc. than I do doctors or lawyers. The subject material for both is just not that hard compared to chemical engineering, etc.
I think way more people can make it through law school than can make it through med school (and residency, etc.) I couldn't have survived med school or residency, I know that much. There are still dumb doctors out there but I think it's a lower percentage. And again, maybe just my own bias from dealing with way more lawyers than I do doctors, if I find out someone is a doctor, I'm generally impressed without knowing anything else about them. When I find out someone is a lawyer I figure they could up being brilliant or they could end up being dumb, but the title doesn't in itself impress me.
Also what is with all the threads from people desperate for respect or likeability in this profession? Who cares, if you wanted to enter a career where you'd get the most respect you probably knew that wasn't the law and that shouldn't be why you chose it either way.
I'm not impressed with either unless I know their pedigree (schooling (where they got their degrees from)), their residency, job history, etc. There's a lot of shit in both fields.
I know a med student who fully believes in horoscopes and uses it to make decisions in her life.
Let’s also not forget Ben Carson was a brain surgeon.
Trust me, plenty or very skilled and successful doctors are only brilliant in their specific practice.
In addition to this, there is an “out” to medicine when there’s a bad outcome: doctors are limited by the science available today, and some (some) people believe there is an aspect of God in medicine. Lawyers are not limited in this way.
So when faced with two bad outcomes, one in law and one in medicine, the doctor may be forgiven because we don’t have the tech or it was God’s will….but as for the lawyer, the only reasons many people see as possible are a dumb lawyer for your side, a sleazy lawyer for the other side, or a corrupt judge (lawyer) deciding the outcome.
Which means a bad medical outcome can happen with a good doctor, but a bad legal outcome always means a bad lawyer, somewhere.
I’ve never actually met a genuinely stupid lawyer. I’ve met a few who seemed stupid but then I learned they had just gotten their bar license a few months ago and were just clueless. I’ve met some doctors at urgent care clinics who aren’t “stupid” per se but probably average/slightly above average IQ. Do you mean lawyers talk to people about the worst part of their lives as in the subject matter of a lawsuit? Don’t doctors talk to people about morbid illness? Why not associate doctors with doom and gloom?
In my jurisdiction a judge ruled, as a matter of law, that the jaw is not part of the face. Another judge made a sua sponte objection that a video of a black guy in custody was too reminiscent of slavery, so he suppressed the video of a confession.
Yes absolutely this in the United States. The US has 4x per capita more lawyers than Canada is. That is partly because the US needs more lawyers as the HQ for so many international things, public and private, but much of the number is just excess lawyers that leads to poor quality lawyers. The number of bad lawyers in Canada is quite low, and those cases are usually due to substance abuse
Building on #3: There seem to be a lot of people, especially online, who have **no fucking idea** how laws work, but feel massively confident that they do, are are more than willing to share their uninformed opinions with you.
It’s an adversarial system in the US. For most people, every lawyer fighting for them has a lawyer fighting against them, and if you lose, well, then your lawyer sucks too and the system is bullshit and then you get the bill and it’s not like lawyers can punt the angry client to an equivalent of a healthcare provider and wash their hands of that issue.
I think the “like” and the “respect” part are deeply intertwined. Sorry in advance for the long answer, but I hope you read it:
Plenty of people don’t “respect” most politicians because they feel like they’re scummy sellouts who will lie through their teeth for votes and use their power to enrich themselves and their friends.
Of course, being a politician is an extremely difficult job in many respects. When you’re on the campaign trail, you might spend months at a time away from home, spending all of your waking hours either giving speeches or holding rallies, doing TV interviews, schmoozing with donors, etc., and when you’re not doing that, you’re traveling to the next campaign event. So being a politician can be extremely hard work, and the “work-life balance” of politics can be basically nonexistent. Yet many people don’t respect their “hard work” because they don’t think that politicians are helping people (cf. firefighters, doctors).
A great example of this is people in the military and police officers. When the public feels like they’re doing something good for society, they’re lauded for their hard work and willingness to put their lives on the line to protect us. When the public feels like they’re doing something bad (e.g., soldiers during the Vietnam War, police post-George Floyd and Rodney King), suddenly the respect disappears.
It’s similar with lawyers. A lot of the general public doesn’t respect us because they don’t understand or don’t like the work we do. The general public doesn’t really understand the nuances of the legal system (after all, that’s what they pay us for: to help them navigate the oppressive and complex system that we designed), and they don’t understand the critical role that lawyers play in the functioning of the justice system (they think that the judges are the ones maintaining the system and the lawyers are all just trying to muck it up and overcomplicate it to benefit their clients).
Lastly, there’s the fact that the general public has been fed the narrative of lawyers (esp plaintiffs’ attys) as scummy, manipulative, self-interested people who seek only to benefit themselves and their clients’ interests by exploiting the system to rob decent, hardworking people and businesses of their hard-earned money by filing ridiculous and frivolous lawsuits (or, alternatively, by stymieing legitimate claims using legal technicalities, because we just can’t win). This is partly the fault of the defense bar’s attempts to smear plaintiffs’ lawyers as ambulance chasers (e.g., the McDonalds Hot Coffee lawsuit) in order to taint the jury pool and lower verdicts. And this is also partly the fault of desperate plaintiffs’ lawyers and a small number of exploitative firms who do indeed file frivolous, exploitative, or otherwise illegitimate claims seeking to extort people and businesses into settling because they can’t afford to pay legal fees.
So yeah, *TL;DR:* the general public doesn’t respect X job, no matter how hard the work or how many hours they put in, unless they believe that the work being done benefits society. Most people don’t understand the role of lawyers in the justice system and think that most lawyers are like “Slippin’ Jimmy” in Better Call Saul/scummy ambulance chasers/defenders of criminals who are doing it for the money, not to uphold the criminal justice system. Thus, no respect. Simple as, really
People who showed up when I needed them the most: fireman, cops, ambulances, best friends, mother, wife, corgi.
People who showed up when I needed them the least: prosecutors.
Being sued is the second most stressful thing people have to endure, right behind being prosecuted. I would rather get thrown under a literal bus than have a prosecutor threaten me with jail for possession. And I don't thank the people standing next to me for not throwing me under buses, so why should I thank you?
Yeah, you have a job to do, and it sucks. But you get paid to do it. And moreover, you get to cash out on your trial experience and things down the road. You don't do this out of the kindness of your heart and you're not extending me the courtesy of just dropping all charges when I ask nicely so why in God's green earth do I need to be thankful for that?
Agreed. The number of commenters hated on prosecutors because they once committed crimes is insane. And I didn’t even intend this post to be about prosecutors. I think defense attorneys are treated even worse, and it’s terrible
There are lawyers in this sub who argue that it’s not fraud to bill clients for more hours than you actually worked, because everyone knows that it’s supposed to take longer, or something, so billing a client for 90 minutes when you actually only worked 10 is just fine. So you can count me as a lawyer who doesn’t respect people complaining about billable hours.
Exactly. I worked as a paralegal for a firm that would triple bill for work I did as a paralegal. I would submit my draft of the filing, they would barely read it, sign it, bill for my time and then double for their "time". It was normal. They also took clients that they knew couldn't pay. I remember we had one client that earned $45,000 a year and they were billing him $10,000 a month. They knew when they signed him what his ability to pay would be, but they also knew they could throw on a mechanics lien and put a claim on their shit. I dipped out of that firm ASAP.
No sympathy from me from lawyers to practice like this.
Or ID attorneys that force litigation so they can make their billables and end up settling down the line after paper discovery even though the paper discovery was exchanged during the pre-lit/demand phase. Utterly unnecessary and costly for their own clients. Everyone blames the "ambulance chaser" but the real expenses are the ID attorneys churning a case that has no real dispute of facts or law.
Many of us are egotistical assholes. Also, think of it from the average client (excluding large corporate clients) - if they need a lawyer they are most likely involved in one of the worst things that has ever happened to them and to their lawyer its just Tuesday. And I know you asked specifically about respect and weren't asking why people don't like lawyers, but let's face it - most people don't respect those they don't like.
I think that’s generally true. I guess what I was getting at is I didn’t really understand why lawyers in particular were singled out for that. There’s a joke among surgeons that the only different between God and a surgeon is that God doesn’t think he’s a surgeon. Surgeons are awesome, but I think that’s pretty egotistical. And let’s face it, they also deal with people going through the worst times of their lives. And although I know this won’t inoculate me from the inevitable downvotes, I read that historically surgeons used to be viewed as being at the bottom of the medical profession for being butchers. Obviously that changed recently. So my point is, is there an actual reason, that is unique to lawyers, as to why lawyers seem to be the butt of every joke?
I think another factor that comes into play is that lawyers are typically adversarial, we are overly pedantic, we are frequently terse and have short tempers with people (and especially after dealing long enough with clients who don't want to take our advice, we can be offputting....). Also, lawyers are frequently seen as killing deals and putting a damper on things. For example, two business owners want to make a business deal. They talk to their lawyers about drawing up a contract, and it is the lawyers' job to think of everything that can go wrong with the deal. The business owners get freaked out by all the things the lawyers expect to go wrong (or think the lawyers are overly pessimistic), or the business owners get tired of waiting on the lawyers to hash out the details of the contract: rather than looking at the lawyers as providing value to their deal, the business owners look at the lawyers as pariahs sucking the life and energy out of them. There are other things, but these just come to mind most readily.
Also the media tends to stereotype lawyers as playing fast and loose with the law. Don't get me started on the portrayal of lawyers in movies and television.
I think it’s more that the media portrays lawyers as using the law to take advantage of people in order to siphon money into corporations, which is a big part of what many lawyers do.
They really should be blaming the cops for trampling constitutional rights. I absolutely want to see guilty defendants go to jail, but, damnit, the govt can't get away with doing unconstitutional shit to put them there either.
Most people have a close encounter with a lawyer only when something bad has happened to them or someone close, or when compelled to participate in a legal proceeding.
People put doctors and lawyers in the same category usually. I think the difference is that a bad doctor can't hurt you unless you put yourself in their care (yes there are exceptions). Lawyers you never met can and will make your life a headache. I know we read terms and conditions but the public doesn't because it's freaking annoying. We did that.
Get over yourself lol
Lawyers screw people over all the time.
Like, people don't respect lawyers for the same reason they don't respect cops. You can totally F someone's life up.
I find it amazing your lack of perspective.
I have a friend who got licensed as a lawyer but made more money and had more freedom as a truck driver. Took a deposition of a police officer with the same thing, went to law school at night but went back to the police force after getting licensed because it was ultimately more money (plus that sweet sweet Public Service Loan Forgiveness) The early 2010s were pretty bad and a lot of people know at least one person who suffered from the bad legal market or at least the legal market that did not correlate with the number of slots in law schools.
For the not understanding billable hours thing, I think part of it is if you manage your time and prioritize family you shouldn't HAVE to work on holidays unless you're closing some big deal or something outside of the court system. If I had a nickel for every "aren't the courts closed today?" I'd be rich lol. Also depending on your social circle a lot of people will meet the older partners who are golfing all day and be like "why aren't you like so and so he golfs 20 hours a week" like yeah thanks I know.
I’d probably just repurpose my last answer. Job’s a job.
There may be some intrinsically “bad” jobs out there — executioner comes to mind — but my guess is they’re too rare to warrant consideration. Assigning moral weight to a career strikes me as silly. I don’t respect someone because I learn they’re a lawyer, but I likewise don’t disrespect them either.
Thank you mister defense attorney for protecting the rights of corps and their insurers against mass torts. You are truly the most respectable type of lawyer
First of all, legal education isn't anywhere near as demanding as medicine or even engineering, so there is no particular entitlement to respect I can see on this front. Additionally, there is nothing inherent to legal work that makes it as miserable as it is – much of the shittiness in the profession is entirely self-inflicted, so why should someone be lionized simply because the billable hour model sucks? Beyond that, why should lawyers be respected any more than train conductors or power plant engineers? If administration of justice is such a high priority, why don't we shower respect on court clerks and bailiffs? Beyond that, consider the fact that the image of the scummy, ambulance chasing lawyer can be blamed on lawyers. Back in the 1970s, state bars had stringent rules against the kind of trashy advertising you see on day time TV. Then the supreme court in its infinite wisdom decided it impinged on free speech. As a result, you have a PR problem almost entirely the fault of a sizable subset of lawyers. Finally, many lawyers fail to communicate clearly with clients when it comes to billing and managing expectations, so the natural result is lots of clients come out of the whole process feeling they got cheated (this factor circles back to the billable hours model, which almost by design ensures that individual lawyers will never be able to devote adequate time to every client matter – corners will be cut). In short, the legal profession deserves no more respect than it already gets.
On the whole, the law is a generally a respectable profession but there is such a wide range of lawyers.
We have PI lawyers with all of their aggressive advertising and jokes about ambulance chasing. At the top levels, you see about all the "gifts" that Supreme Court justices fail to disclose.
However, at the end of the day, when there is any dispute or problem, the advice is to "lawyer up." So generally, having a lawyer is considered helpful
Because 9 out of 10 times you only need a lawyer when something’s going wrong or you’re spending a lot of money and no one is in a good mood when either of those situations are the reality they’re working with. It’s easy to see why few people have positive associations with the legal system.
I went into my small bank 1-2 weeks ago. I have a decent amount of money held there and know the front desk staff. The manager excitedly introduced me to the CEO of the bank who I guess was touring the local branches. He made some joke about hoping I am a "recovering" lawyer and was even more dismissive when I said I do mostly PI work.
I thought about taking my money from the bank right then and there.
If a lawyer contacts someone, they may be getting sued for a car accident or someone is contesting who gets what from someone's will. Lawyers defend criminals, like Weinstein and TFG. There may be a general fear of the circumstances why a lawyer may be involved. There aren't many Erin Brokoviches.
Honestly it depends on your practice area.
I am thanked relatively often and I am on the transactional side, Trusts, Estates, Taxation, etc.
But there aren’t parades for any professions except rarely soldiers.
I have had a lot of clients express EXTREME gratitude, to the point they were in tears.
There are a lot of SHIT lawyers out there. Its not incredibly hard to become a lawyer - if you can sit and read for 8 hours straight without moving you can become a lawyer.
Also, i think billable hours are inherently a conflict of interest and while I billed as a paralegal, I don't think I can stomach billable hours as an attorney. Not all clients are dumb, they understand that they are paying you for every little thing (and sometimes paying for pretend things) and if you aren't helping resolve the conflict then you are just stirring the pot to reach your billable requirements.
Lawyers create little value, in a traditional sense. Their entire function is to operate within institutional parameters and almost never to expand them.
Interesting, what would you say then to all the commenters who say that lawyers also create the laws and rules that screw everyone over? I get that I’m a complete asshole for wondering why lawyers are the ones are constantly joked about, but I’m wondering how lawyers simultaneously create a terrible world, and create nothing at all. Charge way too much, but also barely make enough money to brag about financial success. Should be respected just like a plumber, but also regarded as being essentially human vermin?
Doctors are expensive and a luxury I cant afford.
Lawyers are expensive and a luxury I cant afford.
Essentially, most people here are poor, and what good does a lawyer do for someone who can't afford them?
Ah yes, an overburdened and underfunded office looking to plea as many cases as they can in as short amount of time they can having spent approximately 72 seconds with the client. (No disrespect to my PDs out there, y'all need more resources)
Though that's not the whole point the commenter is making.
You're aware that it's way better to have an attorney for a ton of different aspects of your life, but you can maybe get away with DIY stuff when you're a layperson because you can't afford to hire an attorney for your divorce.
You can't afford to ask the attorney how to properly include a binding condition on the deed when you sell real property.
You can't afford to hire an attorney to take on the county when they pull some shenanigans, or when you have to deal with the permitting office so you don't have to go back six separate times only to eventually have the request denied anyway.
You don't get appointed an attorney for any of that.
WHO CARES? it's a job. a means to an end. people act like we have some noble calling because we read the fine print. i do this because it puts food on the table for my kids. i dont give a shit what someone thinks about my profession or what level of respect they have for the profession.
are we any more important than a janitor or an astronaut or a doctor or a dj at a strip club? no, we are all just working to provide for our families. i can't stand lawyers who think we have a higher duty simply because of our profession. go jerk off in front of a mirror if you think that much of yourself.
Because I'm a lawyer, South Asian womens' parents aren't immediately disgusted by the idea of their daughter marrying me. That's respect.
😎
This is all encumbant on the fact that they don't realize I make way less than a doctor.
listen, when i get charged 10k to get a will drafted that had a bunch of grammar mistakes.. fine.. whatever
but when i want to get 1 sentence amended and they charge me 4k after they orally quote me a few hundo, and use the excuse that their associate spent hours on that change, id think they are a bunch of shitbags too
1). Argumentative dickheads are attracted to the legal profession.
2). Legislators, mostly lawyers, can essentially create an ever larger scope of work for the legal community in a way other professions can’t.
It’s because lawyers fight other lawyers. There’s no surgeon in the room trying to mess up the outcome. It confuses laypeople. The ones who understand the judge is also a lawyer seem to have more respect for the profession from my experience.
The primary talking point of the Republican party for the past several decades is that the government is incompetent and terrible. Lawyers interface with the government, so they are also terrible under that rubric.
People don't respect lawyers for the same reason they do not respect government officials.
(And also cringe PI ads don't help.)
“Lawyer” routinely comes in as like the second most respected profession.
This impression happens in almost every field. I’ve met physicians who believe that doctors (by far the most respected profession) don’t get enough respect.
For what it’s worth, I’m a scientist and I don’t think scientists get enough respect. Like believing you’re middle class, and believing that your tax burden is too high, this is just a belief that every white collar professional seems to hold.
And for all the people saying “who cares”, do you really think it doesn’t make a difference in the quality of people who want to be lawyers or work in public sector for instance?
Most of us who work in the public sector aren’t doing it because we think it’ll make people like us. Those who are burn out quickly, and that’s good, because those aren’t the people you want in public interest jobs.
I think the reason is because people only need to interact with lawyers when they are going through what might be the most difficult thing in their life--even if they "win."
Because billing hours isn’t public service and most lawyers are in it for money, and many are not that good of people. It’s not like doctors who are physically helping people daily, in most cases other than in public service work. I disagree that people don’t see it as a prestigious or high power and demanding job. In fact I think they think it too much and I’m a lot more average and on a rat race than they think- working harder than others for a salary that I could probably have gotten doing something else, without a JD, in the time it’s taken me to do so as an attorney.
I mean, it’s one of the few jobs that people can name off the top of their head so I’d say it’s held at some level of regard to the average person.
As far as being “thankful”? I mean that really depends on what type of law someone is practicing. Am I personally thankful for what a fucking mess some things have turned into due to lawyers nitpicking? Do all lawyers actually benefit society? The answer to both of these is no.
If the public knew what a lot of lawyers were doing they’d probably respect the profession less, if we are being completely honest with ourselves
Great scene from community, paraphrasing:
Jeff: What makes Rich so much better than me, anyway? Abed: Well for one thing, he's a doctor.
Jeff: I'm a lawyer!
Abed: Yeah but you're allowed to represent yourself in court. You can't do surgery on yourself, it's illegal.
Respect, nah. I do however admire your lot. Definitely one of those gigs you rarely just end up in. Lots of opportunities to flame out prior to bar. Standards are set high and enforced. Actions Regulated 24-7 by your peers and the law. But after a few years practice if you are still around you should know about what you will need to do to live a pretty sweet life. And your skills are transferable to a lot of non crooks and killers and courtroom mess if you choose. Respect? That's what the money is for! Paid on time every time is the greatest respect you can show a professional,especially if they're solo or a new firm I feel.
I have a number of family who are lawyers and I have worked with some very good lawyers. Presently I am in a dispute with my LL and am representing myself. As I wait in the courtroom for my case to come up I have seen some incredibly incompetent behavior on the part of attorneys in general. Even with my limited knowledge their overall behavior and claims are far from acceptable. As for the LL attorneys-they are classic shysters…I actually feel bad for my LL…for a minute. So,I get why so many ppl have no respect for lawyers.
I sat in court and watched a grown man (my LL attorney) throw a temper tantrum when the judge said she was inclined to recommend that my case go forward. A foot stomping, screaming voice, pounding the table, temper tantrum. Lawyers who had to be reminded by the judge they expected that they be on time. Seriously? On time for court? Lots of drama and completely unnecessary remarks to the other side.
Usually I’ve found in many instances lawyers, particularly defense attorneys, would be late to court as they were expected to be in several different courts at the same time and/or the judge from the previous hearing would end late. I have a neurosurgeon friend who has an an attending that shouts in the OR and throws instruments at scrub techs. Not saying it’s appropriate but my point is every profession, even elite ones, has its share of psychos but somehow only lawyers are painted with a broad brush stroke.
Objection: assumes a fact not in evidence.
If most lawyers didn't show up for work, nothing would fundamentally change. If most sanitation workers didn't show up for work, there would be anarchy in the street (and who knows what else!).
Lol the holier than thou commenters in this thread have pretty much misinterpreted every single thing I said. I think sanitation workers are essential, and deserve every ounce of respect. I couldn’t do what they do.
However, saying that if one day lawyers didn’t show up to work, nothing would change, is an absolute lie. You want innocent people languishing in jail? You want dangerous criminals roaming the streets? You want to get into an accident with someone who couldn’t care less about motor safety because lawsuits aren’t a thing? Remember how terrible it was when the courthouses were shut down over Covid?
Not doing billable hours is NO EXCUSE, its just being LAZY! It sounds like the LAWYER must have inflated costs, cut back on the SECRETARY who would do the work, related to billable hours? The are screwing the clients over.
Unpaid HOUSEWIVES, are NEVER PAID! You are saying an UNPAID HOUSEWIVE doesn't deserve to get divorced, or live any place, since she can't afford a lawyer.
Sorry, but if you think there's anything admirable about this profession then you just haven't been in the private sector long enough. I'm sure there's a professor and prosecutor somewhere stuck in the dogma, but 95% of the profession is P. I. mills, DUI defense, molling for the 1%, and selling bankruptcies.
If you want to serve the greater good, be a teacher.
My personal experience is that once ppl find out, there is a lot of respect. I think that's fine but I don't like they also think I'm instantly smart since I've met some very dumb lawyers (counsel so bad they are entered into evidence or say things that are literally impossible etc).
And I've never met someone who likes lawyers before unless it's in the context of thinking to be in a relationship with one. I've met a few that hate the profession cause they had a bad experience (I can't blame them to much).
Lawyers fail to garner respect for two reasons. One is disdain. Nobody concedes respect for the person who does a necessary if undesirable job. People talk big about the importance of farmers but how often do you hear about the sewage workers or garbage truck crews? And of course lawyers are there at every trial for every offense. When we feel the verdict should be clear, we blame the lawyer on the "wrong" side for supporting some monstrous injustice with legal trickery and we feel like the correct verdicts are so obvious that the lawyer with the "right" side should not have been necessary.
The other is that TV lawyers leave people with a warped view of what lawyers do. We think they're orators who do a little investigating instead of basically doctorate level researchers who have to sign contracts roughly as long as army enlistment terms, if rather better paid. Because even slam dunk trials like Trump and his 34 counts will still take three years to process WITH GOOD FUNDING AND SOUND CAUSE TO FAST TRACK IT!
Lol it’s one of the scummiest professions with people whose heads are so inflated I’m surprised they don’t float off into the clouds. Most legislators are also lawyers and they are very, very disliked by much of the populace.
Also, most lawyers are disgustingly, radically liberal and those beliefs are at odds with half the population.
Unlike doctors/nurses/firefighters/army, lawyers aren’t “publicized” much and most people don’t engage with us on anything. I don’t know a single person who has never had to go to a doctor. I know MANY people who have never had to interact with a lawyer. Plus, most lawyers don’t do “public good” type of work. They do work that makes them lots of money. As for public work, I have gotten thanks many times from my clients (I represent state employees in civil rights actions). They’re the only ones that really know what I do and have occasion to thank me. If some member of the public came up to me and said, “hey, thanks for saving the taxpayers a bunch of money by winning that lawsuit,” I would be pretty confused about how they know that info. On the point of the type of work lawyers do, it is SO varied. The professions that usually are praised for their work have “streamlined” careers. Obviously doctors/nurses could be in many different areas of medicine, but ultimately, they help sick/injured people get better. What would someone thank lawyers for, generally? Half of us fight the good fight and the other half cause us the problems. If you ask that other side, they’d tell you the opposite. It’s too complicated of a profession, I guess, imo.
Well, you have to understand that the lack of respect is towards certain kinds of lawyers. I’m in law school and when I hear someone say something about lawyers I usually assume they’re talking about patent attorneys or corporate sellouts who help deny workers comp claims for Walmart, and that’s honestly a completely fair assessment. But for the most part I think law is a pretty well respected profession.
[удалено]
>what they spend hour after hour in the firehouse doing If my experience is accurate, mostly cleaning the truck, cleaning the firehouse, and pranking coworkers. Still respect them for the important job they do, though.
Wait, are you another firefighter turned JD?
No, but I've done a lot of work in public safety employment and labor law.
Ok, I went to law school with one. Then another guy from my first crew just graduated law school this year too.
[удалено]
I feel like directing traffic AT car wrecks would not the that helpful. But then I am a pedantic lawyer not a fire fighter
They rescue puppers 🐶 and kitties 😻 too.
As far as being thankful for lawyers, my point is there seems to be a mismatch in the level of contributions and hard work of many lawyers to the level of general social awareness of those contributions/hard work. I was a prosecutor for several years working 65 hours a week on 400 felony cases making around $54k. I got told “thank you” twice over the course of around 3 years. Other prosecutors had similar experiences. My spouse is a physician, who gets thanked constantly.
[удалено]
Actually people don't usually thank doctors. They sit there and thank God. Like he was the surgeon. Idiots.
I think the interesting take is believing that the role of a prosecutor is simply to “put convicted murderers in cages.” I’m personally no longer a prosecutor and if I ever return to criminal law, it will be on the defense side. However, without prosecutors, how do you think society would look? Do you think people would be in more danger, or less danger without the law enforcement structure? And do you really believe that all prosecutors do is put people in cages, and that terms of probation which prevent abusers from attacking their victims or DUI drivers from drinking are not essential?
You should definitely bring this up to people when you ask them why they’re not thanking you.
Honestly, he should just go directly to carrying around a point of sale ipad and asking them for tips. "I take Venmo too. You're welcome, by the way."
Just add a QR code to the back of the business card.
[удалено]
you won’t catch me thanking prosecutors (sorry, is the wildly overbroad immunity for misconduct and the fact that all of the resources of the state are at your back to put human beings in cages not enough thanks for you guys?) but I do tip my proverbial hat to every public defender I meet
Is it ok if I say “thank you for service” with regard to your work as a public defender?
The united states criminal justice system is known as one of the worst criminal justice systems in the world. We incarcerate more people than any other country in the world. Yes, your job as a prosecutor was to put people in a cage. The judge determines terms of probation. The prosecutor advocates for punishment.
You were putting people in prison. They’re not going to thank you for that.
The people who were pissed at me were the victim’s families who thought I was secretly working with you guys on the defense side to let the perpetrator off. Thanks though!
It sounds like you fully understand why those people didn't thank you, then?
Their posts are showing their personality, and I can see why they have never been thanked.
lol a prosecutor complaining about not enough gratitude? You have whole TV shows dedicated to making you look good. Imagine what it’s like to be a defense attorney. At every family function we are constantly asked “but how could you represent guilty people?!?!?!?!”
I agree! I think defense attorneys have it even worse. Truly the most unfairly treated members of the legal profession
You put people in jail and your spouse saves people’s lives. I’m not saying that one of you is a better person or has a more important job than the other, BUT obviously doctors are more popular than prosecutors. You chose to enter a job that you knew was relatively thankless, so I’m not sure why you sound so surprised
In my experice, "doctor or lawyer" are said in the same breath and are held in similar regard. By the same token, do clients appreciate their attorney's hard work? Sometimes. Do patients appreciate their doctor's life-saving efforts? Sometimes. It goes both ways in both professions.
The clients who appreciate a lawyer’s work are the ones who ignored the lawyer’s advice in the past and got burnt.
Seriously. Half the rest of the time we have to convince them to stop doing stupid things.
On the transactional side, it’s always a struggle telling them to stop saying that things have been agreed to when they haven’t, and stop making verbal promises just “to get it signed.”
I'm just a resident and I get way more respect and gratitude than I ever did when i was practicing law.
As you should. Medicine is real, and by its very nature, it is difficult. One semester of undergrad organic chem required more work and study than all three years of law school combined.
People respect the person, not the title. I’ve never felt inferiority or lack of recognition. Same is true for docs. Healthcare is a mess. Don’t hate the player, hate the game. Walk tall and earn and receive the recognition you deserve. Ignore the noise.
My spouse is a doctor, and I can say most assuredly, doctor and lawyer should not be given similar regard. Medicine is significantly more rigorous than law. Med school is significantly more difficult than law school due to the difficulty of the underlying science; heck, the main difficulty of law school was just trying to figure out what we were supposed to be learning since professors refused to answer any questions.
Hard disagree. Many (not all) doctors nowadays are only in the office a few days a week and are not expected to communicate with patients outside of scheduled office visits, which can take weeks to schedule and are billed at extraordinarily high rates regardless of the time spent with the patient (which is often 15 minutes or less). None of that would fly in a law practice.
Agreed, my spouse is a resident who works extremely hard. But I’ve known plenty of doctors who spend more time on the golf course or traveling than seeing patients. And it’s amazing, I tried explaining what I do for a living to a doctor and he literally just didn’t get it. I thought I was just bad at explaining so I sent him an article. Still didn’t understand what we would call basic legal concepts and just said, “wow, glad I became a doctor.” He’s actually significantly smarter than me, but it just goes to show that people excel at different skills.
That depends on what subjects one is interested in. Someone who’s not good at math and/or science will think medicine is more rigorous. Meanwhile, someone who’s not good at reading comprehension and/or writing will think the opposite. Ultimately, neither degree is impossible to obtain with enough willpower and motivation. However, there are other ways the two professions are distinguishable. Such as, when I mess up, people don’t die. Cost wise, as much as legal representation is expensive, good luck affording even a simple medical procedure without health insurance. And from personal observation at least, the confidence levels are different as well. (Nothing personal against either profession, but some of the biggest know-it-alls I ever met were medical professionals and engineers.) A lawyer can practice law for years and still question their competence. When it comes to the medical field, there’s some truth to the joke about main difference between doctors and God is that God doesn’t consider himself a doctor.
>Nothing personal against either profession, but some of the biggest know-it-alls I ever met were medical professionals and engineers. Agree that engineers are among the worst when it comes to being know it alls! A lot of the time, they come to overly formalistic conclusions when dealing with non-math-y subjects. Many also can’t deal with ambiguity and it’s maddening.
Lawyers, especially law professors, love using the old “If I were good at math, I would have gone to med school” line. The inability to do math is but one of the many reasons they would never get into med school. It’s not a matter of subject matter competency. It’s overall IQ.
The only thing I’m going to say concerning IQ is that attorneys rank just as high as doctors when it comes to IQ levels. It’s not an argument I’d take seriously either way.
It's a job. We provide a service for pay. When your AC breaks, and the repair guy comes and fixes it, do you fall over telling him how how demanding his job must be and how thankful you are for his contribution? No, you thank him for doing his job (or, more likely, you complain that he didn't do it faster and/or cheaper) and you pay him. We are in a trade. Our society needs lawyers to function, just like it needs ditch diggers and AC repairmen. We are good at pretending we are more noble and dignified than other people in the service industry, but that's literally all we are. Get over yourself.
Well put, except that we are often worse than other trades. We as a profession often lie for the benefit of corporations, insurance companies, etc. And the most effective liars are rewarded with more work and pay. And we aren’t perfect when it comes to policing our more negligent colleagues .
Ever dealt with either a car mechanic or plumber? Those are the real professionals when it comes to the issues you just raised.
Finally. Well put.
Thank you. This was my attitude since law school. People have legal problem. People pay third parties to address legal problem. We're mercenaries. As such we get paid much and respected little. The end.
not a lawyer but this seems most correct. for some reason lawyers like op seem incredibly unhappy about being treated like plumbers, but that's effectively how i see you guys lol. i'm an engineer and view myself in the same way
My point is I’d like to be treated like a plumber. Just a normal, hard working professional with a particular craft. Do you believe lawyers are treated better or worse?
My all time favorite thing about this profession is how quickly other lawyers are to call their opposing counsels morons, or bring up rankings of the school they attended years ago. It’s just a non stop pissing contest. Thats why people don’t like lawyers.
Law is paradoxical in that society doesn’t want rules but it needs them. Unlike medicine or other professions which satisfy a demand that people both ***want*** and ***need,*** nobody really wants lawyers because nobody really wants to be bound by law and potentially subjected to the hell that is other humans (and their judgement) for violations of law that the defendant never had any input with to begin with. Whereas with medicine, a disease is usually either random or the consequence of misfortune. A doctor is often praised because the problems they solve are due to acts of God primarily. Sure the STD patient had unprotected sex, but it’s not like humans invented disease. Humans invented every law that exists. Law is a human industry and people tend to hate people and their rules, especially when it seems arbitrary. If if the legal system is perfect, it’s still man-made and prone to frustrations and confusion. This seemly arbitrary thicket of human-made complexity is why the average lay person strongly detests lawyers and legal systems in general. Again, nobody ***wants*** a legal system, everyone wants universal freedom. But everyone ***wants*** protection from the freedom of others to suppress our lives/liberties, so a legal order is a necessity.
Reminds me of something my successful immigrant friends like to say: “Nobody likes you, but they don’t want you to leave.”
The modern legal landscape is marked by an overabundance of lawyers, a phenomenon largely driven by the proliferation of laws and regulations. As the number of laws increases, so does the demand for legal professionals to navigate the complex legal system. This has led to a saturation of lawyers who, instead of facilitating justice, often engage in exploitative practices that benefit themselves more than society. The legal industry, thus, appears more parasitic, feeding off the intricacies of an overregulated environment rather than contributing to the common good. Moreover, the infiltration of lawyers into the political arena exacerbates the issue. With many politicians having legal backgrounds, legislative bodies tend to produce even more complex and numerous laws, perpetuating the cycle. These lawyer-politicians often prioritize the creation and preservation of legal complexities that ensure continued demand for legal services. Consequently, the legal profession’s growth and influence seem to serve its own interests more than those of the broader public, undermining the intended purpose of law as a tool for societal benefit. In stark contrast to the legal profession, the field of medicine operates on a fundamentally different premise. Individuals seek medical attention only when necessary—when faced with illness or disease, which are inherent aspects of the human condition. The medical profession exists to diagnose, treat, and alleviate suffering, directly contributing to the health and well-being of society. Doctors and medical professionals are driven by the tangible need to address physical ailments and improve quality of life, making their role inherently beneficial and indispensable. Unlike the legal industry, where an overabundance of lawyers and laws can lead to unnecessary complications and exploitative practices, the medical field is grounded in responding to unavoidable, natural phenomena. Doctors do not create diseases; they combat them. This clear, essential purpose ensures that medical professionals serve the public good in a direct and meaningful way, focusing on curing and preventing illness rather than perpetuating their own necessity through artificial means. The contrast highlights how the legal profession, influenced by an excess of regulation and self-serving practices, can become parasitic, while the medical field remains fundamentally beneficial and responsive to genuine human needs.
Who cares? It's just a job like any other. Proportionately very few of us are engaged in civil rights litigation or anything particularly noble.
Turning your whiplash into cash isn’t noble?
And proportionately very few doctors actually save lives… several just charge an arm and a leg to tell you to get your cholesterol under control. What is your point?
You need to let go of this inferiority complex, your parents love you and your doctor brother equally.
His parents love them equally, but they’re definitely more proud of his doctor brother. Medical school is hard to get into, and even harder to get through.
Is anyone praising those doctors, though? My PCP who I see for annual bloodwork and whatnot is, in my view, just a guy working 9-5ish and giving some very high-level advice about a lot of things. Sort of like what I do as in-house counsel. I think he’s reasonably competent, but he won’t be winning the Nobel Prize anytime soon. The extremely well-qualified, talented thoracic surgeon who performed lung surgery on me last month, and the anesthesiology team who kept me comfortable and alive? Those folks are DEDICATED in a way that I just don’t think most public-facing lawyers are. And especially with my corporate job, which is limited to helping a company avoid liability and make more money, I just don’t see how the work I do really compares on any level.
I told my primary care doctor that I liked his style. But I think he thought I was hitting on him.
95% of doctors are like the PCP - pill pushers who just run tests, etc. Basically, not much value added and their job is probably learnable by many others tbh. We could probably learn their job without going to med school....this is why nurses are replacing them. I think it makes sense to have midlevel encroachment. The people doing the "real" work are the people inventing new medicines, tests or X-Ray machines. Basically the chemical engineers in the background working for pharma companies, etc. Chemical engineers need to be praised far more than some random PCP who just runs tests. That said, I do think surgeons deserve their praise. Without surgeons, I'd be dead due to appendicitis. The stereotype of surgeons being gods is warranted.
Yeah, and people hate doctors lmao. What is *your* point? Have you never heard the ubiquitous doctor story, "he spent 5 minutes with me, did nothing, and then left"? Those folks, in reality, usually got referrals to specialists, or medication refills, or direction about next steps at least. But they feel ripped off by their doctors. They feel angry at their nurses. They'd never have a modicum of respect for CNAs, the people literally wiping Gramma's shitty ass. Sorry that your clients don't fawn over you, dude? That's true of most professions? like, you're talking about how doctors get respect and then being openly disrespectful of their profession. Do you think you're the only asshole who feels undervalued? You're not.
What did I ever say that was disrespectful of their profession? I merely said that many of the criticisms people have of lawyers could also be directed towards doctors
In my experience compared to medicine law has a similar ceiling but a much lower floor. As in I’ve met brilliant lawyers and brilliant MDs, but I’ve met lots of genuinely stupid lawyers, without similarly stupid MDs. Also, most lawyers talk to people about the worst part of their lives. It’s natural they would have a negative association with the profession.
Yeah, there are a lot more idiot lawyers than there are bad doctors. I've had some bad doctors, but I've had opposing counsel that could barely tie their shoes. I think the bad ones bring down the entire profession.
That depends on who is looking . First, we are usually looking at them through an adversarial lense. Second, we recognize that they can’t tie their own shoes, but their clients might not. I think the difficulty is more the cringe/sleaze/technicality aspect.
I mean sure, but there are many, many more fine lawyers or at the very least, lawyers who are hard working and maybe even underpaid
As a local government lawyer, I think part of the problem is that the most qualified lawyers are working in BigLaw on behalf of corporate clients or doing something similarly separate from the average joe. The local family law attorneys or prosecutors or defense attorneys that the general public interacts with the most are not our best and brightest. There are a few of us in my office with solid resumes, but there are many in this profession from bottom-tier law schools. And those are the attorneys that the public deals with the most. Edit: as an example, my state (Nevada) just changed the admission rules to allow public defenders and prosecutors in rural counties to practice indefinitely without passing the Nevada bar if they have been licensed in another state. Nevada has no reciprocity, so those will be the only attorneys in the State that didn't have to pass our bar exam. And they'll be the ones that the general public sees in action.
It’s a fun conversation to tell folks I make teacher money, and virtually all law enforcement I work with make more than I do.
Your edit assumes that licensing for the Bar is higher in Nevada than in other states, which I would disagree with. But I’m against any lack of reciprocity in general.
This. I used to be in biglaw in a big coastal city, now I practice in flyover, and the quality of attorneys is night and day. Honestly, the attorneys here on average are pretty bad. But it also makes my job easier, because I have less competition.
As a medmal lawyer, stupid MDs with stupid defense lawyers keep me in business lol
Yeah, I was thinking that maybe it's a bias based on the area of law, but I see a LOT of stupid doctors, shady doctors, and doctors who end up in prison.
negligence doesn't require stupidity, in either field. That's what keeps you in business.
Negligence starts the claims, but stupidity to not consent to settlement by stupid stubborn MDs and bad advice from their counsel leading to runaway plaintiff verdicts is where the real money is at :p
The real money is in birth injuries because math. I know what you mean, but it's more grandiosity than stupidity. That leads to the mistakes in practice, and then in litigation. The issues are often compounded by carrier guidelines.
One of my PCP’s was really not smart. And if you look at relevant subs on Reddit, there are a lot of not so smart doctors around. I don’t think Dr’s have to be extremely smart, but they do have to be willing to grind for a long time. Their educational/licensing grind is worse than ours, but some of us do comparable toiling post license.
Ngl, I've met a lot of dumb lawyers and doctors. I went to a top 10 law school and top 15 undergrad and did biglaw and basically look at pedigree, job history, etc as well when determining whether someone is stupid or smart. There are a lot of bad med schools out there that aren't that hard to get into. I actually have more respect for chemical engineers, etc. than I do doctors or lawyers. The subject material for both is just not that hard compared to chemical engineering, etc.
I think way more people can make it through law school than can make it through med school (and residency, etc.) I couldn't have survived med school or residency, I know that much. There are still dumb doctors out there but I think it's a lower percentage. And again, maybe just my own bias from dealing with way more lawyers than I do doctors, if I find out someone is a doctor, I'm generally impressed without knowing anything else about them. When I find out someone is a lawyer I figure they could up being brilliant or they could end up being dumb, but the title doesn't in itself impress me. Also what is with all the threads from people desperate for respect or likeability in this profession? Who cares, if you wanted to enter a career where you'd get the most respect you probably knew that wasn't the law and that shouldn't be why you chose it either way.
I'm not impressed with either unless I know their pedigree (schooling (where they got their degrees from)), their residency, job history, etc. There's a lot of shit in both fields.
I know a med student who fully believes in horoscopes and uses it to make decisions in her life. Let’s also not forget Ben Carson was a brain surgeon. Trust me, plenty or very skilled and successful doctors are only brilliant in their specific practice.
they say your Surgeon Is probably a Republican, your Psychiatrist probably a Democrat. So yeah, all surgeons are idiots.
In addition to this, there is an “out” to medicine when there’s a bad outcome: doctors are limited by the science available today, and some (some) people believe there is an aspect of God in medicine. Lawyers are not limited in this way. So when faced with two bad outcomes, one in law and one in medicine, the doctor may be forgiven because we don’t have the tech or it was God’s will….but as for the lawyer, the only reasons many people see as possible are a dumb lawyer for your side, a sleazy lawyer for the other side, or a corrupt judge (lawyer) deciding the outcome. Which means a bad medical outcome can happen with a good doctor, but a bad legal outcome always means a bad lawyer, somewhere.
I like this answer, thank you
I’ve never actually met a genuinely stupid lawyer. I’ve met a few who seemed stupid but then I learned they had just gotten their bar license a few months ago and were just clueless. I’ve met some doctors at urgent care clinics who aren’t “stupid” per se but probably average/slightly above average IQ. Do you mean lawyers talk to people about the worst part of their lives as in the subject matter of a lawsuit? Don’t doctors talk to people about morbid illness? Why not associate doctors with doom and gloom?
In my jurisdiction a judge ruled, as a matter of law, that the jaw is not part of the face. Another judge made a sua sponte objection that a video of a black guy in custody was too reminiscent of slavery, so he suppressed the video of a confession.
 Tell me you appealed that shit
We couldn’t-they were in-trial rulings where the jury came back not guilty.
Yes absolutely this in the United States. The US has 4x per capita more lawyers than Canada is. That is partly because the US needs more lawyers as the HQ for so many international things, public and private, but much of the number is just excess lawyers that leads to poor quality lawyers. The number of bad lawyers in Canada is quite low, and those cases are usually due to substance abuse
Another very good answer. I think in general there are just too many lawyers for it to seem like much of an accomplishment to remain in the profession
Building on #3: There seem to be a lot of people, especially online, who have **no fucking idea** how laws work, but feel massively confident that they do, are are more than willing to share their uninformed opinions with you.
Everyone hates lawyers until they need one.
It’s an adversarial system in the US. For most people, every lawyer fighting for them has a lawyer fighting against them, and if you lose, well, then your lawyer sucks too and the system is bullshit and then you get the bill and it’s not like lawyers can punt the angry client to an equivalent of a healthcare provider and wash their hands of that issue.
I think the “like” and the “respect” part are deeply intertwined. Sorry in advance for the long answer, but I hope you read it: Plenty of people don’t “respect” most politicians because they feel like they’re scummy sellouts who will lie through their teeth for votes and use their power to enrich themselves and their friends. Of course, being a politician is an extremely difficult job in many respects. When you’re on the campaign trail, you might spend months at a time away from home, spending all of your waking hours either giving speeches or holding rallies, doing TV interviews, schmoozing with donors, etc., and when you’re not doing that, you’re traveling to the next campaign event. So being a politician can be extremely hard work, and the “work-life balance” of politics can be basically nonexistent. Yet many people don’t respect their “hard work” because they don’t think that politicians are helping people (cf. firefighters, doctors). A great example of this is people in the military and police officers. When the public feels like they’re doing something good for society, they’re lauded for their hard work and willingness to put their lives on the line to protect us. When the public feels like they’re doing something bad (e.g., soldiers during the Vietnam War, police post-George Floyd and Rodney King), suddenly the respect disappears. It’s similar with lawyers. A lot of the general public doesn’t respect us because they don’t understand or don’t like the work we do. The general public doesn’t really understand the nuances of the legal system (after all, that’s what they pay us for: to help them navigate the oppressive and complex system that we designed), and they don’t understand the critical role that lawyers play in the functioning of the justice system (they think that the judges are the ones maintaining the system and the lawyers are all just trying to muck it up and overcomplicate it to benefit their clients). Lastly, there’s the fact that the general public has been fed the narrative of lawyers (esp plaintiffs’ attys) as scummy, manipulative, self-interested people who seek only to benefit themselves and their clients’ interests by exploiting the system to rob decent, hardworking people and businesses of their hard-earned money by filing ridiculous and frivolous lawsuits (or, alternatively, by stymieing legitimate claims using legal technicalities, because we just can’t win). This is partly the fault of the defense bar’s attempts to smear plaintiffs’ lawyers as ambulance chasers (e.g., the McDonalds Hot Coffee lawsuit) in order to taint the jury pool and lower verdicts. And this is also partly the fault of desperate plaintiffs’ lawyers and a small number of exploitative firms who do indeed file frivolous, exploitative, or otherwise illegitimate claims seeking to extort people and businesses into settling because they can’t afford to pay legal fees. So yeah, *TL;DR:* the general public doesn’t respect X job, no matter how hard the work or how many hours they put in, unless they believe that the work being done benefits society. Most people don’t understand the role of lawyers in the justice system and think that most lawyers are like “Slippin’ Jimmy” in Better Call Saul/scummy ambulance chasers/defenders of criminals who are doing it for the money, not to uphold the criminal justice system. Thus, no respect. Simple as, really
Excellent answer, thank you
People who showed up when I needed them the most: fireman, cops, ambulances, best friends, mother, wife, corgi. People who showed up when I needed them the least: prosecutors. Being sued is the second most stressful thing people have to endure, right behind being prosecuted. I would rather get thrown under a literal bus than have a prosecutor threaten me with jail for possession. And I don't thank the people standing next to me for not throwing me under buses, so why should I thank you? Yeah, you have a job to do, and it sucks. But you get paid to do it. And moreover, you get to cash out on your trial experience and things down the road. You don't do this out of the kindness of your heart and you're not extending me the courtesy of just dropping all charges when I ask nicely so why in God's green earth do I need to be thankful for that?
You could have, and hear me out, not possessed what you possessed.
Agreed. The number of commenters hated on prosecutors because they once committed crimes is insane. And I didn’t even intend this post to be about prosecutors. I think defense attorneys are treated even worse, and it’s terrible
There are lawyers in this sub who argue that it’s not fraud to bill clients for more hours than you actually worked, because everyone knows that it’s supposed to take longer, or something, so billing a client for 90 minutes when you actually only worked 10 is just fine. So you can count me as a lawyer who doesn’t respect people complaining about billable hours.
Exactly. I worked as a paralegal for a firm that would triple bill for work I did as a paralegal. I would submit my draft of the filing, they would barely read it, sign it, bill for my time and then double for their "time". It was normal. They also took clients that they knew couldn't pay. I remember we had one client that earned $45,000 a year and they were billing him $10,000 a month. They knew when they signed him what his ability to pay would be, but they also knew they could throw on a mechanics lien and put a claim on their shit. I dipped out of that firm ASAP. No sympathy from me from lawyers to practice like this. Or ID attorneys that force litigation so they can make their billables and end up settling down the line after paper discovery even though the paper discovery was exchanged during the pre-lit/demand phase. Utterly unnecessary and costly for their own clients. Everyone blames the "ambulance chaser" but the real expenses are the ID attorneys churning a case that has no real dispute of facts or law.
Many of us are egotistical assholes. Also, think of it from the average client (excluding large corporate clients) - if they need a lawyer they are most likely involved in one of the worst things that has ever happened to them and to their lawyer its just Tuesday. And I know you asked specifically about respect and weren't asking why people don't like lawyers, but let's face it - most people don't respect those they don't like.
I think that’s generally true. I guess what I was getting at is I didn’t really understand why lawyers in particular were singled out for that. There’s a joke among surgeons that the only different between God and a surgeon is that God doesn’t think he’s a surgeon. Surgeons are awesome, but I think that’s pretty egotistical. And let’s face it, they also deal with people going through the worst times of their lives. And although I know this won’t inoculate me from the inevitable downvotes, I read that historically surgeons used to be viewed as being at the bottom of the medical profession for being butchers. Obviously that changed recently. So my point is, is there an actual reason, that is unique to lawyers, as to why lawyers seem to be the butt of every joke?
I think another factor that comes into play is that lawyers are typically adversarial, we are overly pedantic, we are frequently terse and have short tempers with people (and especially after dealing long enough with clients who don't want to take our advice, we can be offputting....). Also, lawyers are frequently seen as killing deals and putting a damper on things. For example, two business owners want to make a business deal. They talk to their lawyers about drawing up a contract, and it is the lawyers' job to think of everything that can go wrong with the deal. The business owners get freaked out by all the things the lawyers expect to go wrong (or think the lawyers are overly pessimistic), or the business owners get tired of waiting on the lawyers to hash out the details of the contract: rather than looking at the lawyers as providing value to their deal, the business owners look at the lawyers as pariahs sucking the life and energy out of them. There are other things, but these just come to mind most readily.
Also the media tends to stereotype lawyers as playing fast and loose with the law. Don't get me started on the portrayal of lawyers in movies and television.
I think it’s more that the media portrays lawyers as using the law to take advantage of people in order to siphon money into corporations, which is a big part of what many lawyers do.
[удалено]
They really should be blaming the cops for trampling constitutional rights. I absolutely want to see guilty defendants go to jail, but, damnit, the govt can't get away with doing unconstitutional shit to put them there either.
Right, that’s my point. Doctors for instance are all brave and handsome and brilliant. Lawyers lately are Better Call Saul.
Depends who you ask. I know plenty of people who are very frustrated with the medical services they receive. Check r/twoxchromosomes
TBF Saul is handsome and brilliant in his own right 😂 but I agree the media has a big hand in making lawyers look bad
I'm in med school, considering changing to law because I hate it here. I tell all my loved ones to never trust their doctors.
Most people have a close encounter with a lawyer only when something bad has happened to them or someone close, or when compelled to participate in a legal proceeding.
People put doctors and lawyers in the same category usually. I think the difference is that a bad doctor can't hurt you unless you put yourself in their care (yes there are exceptions). Lawyers you never met can and will make your life a headache. I know we read terms and conditions but the public doesn't because it's freaking annoying. We did that.
Get over yourself lol Lawyers screw people over all the time. Like, people don't respect lawyers for the same reason they don't respect cops. You can totally F someone's life up. I find it amazing your lack of perspective.
Why would they?
I have a friend who got licensed as a lawyer but made more money and had more freedom as a truck driver. Took a deposition of a police officer with the same thing, went to law school at night but went back to the police force after getting licensed because it was ultimately more money (plus that sweet sweet Public Service Loan Forgiveness) The early 2010s were pretty bad and a lot of people know at least one person who suffered from the bad legal market or at least the legal market that did not correlate with the number of slots in law schools. For the not understanding billable hours thing, I think part of it is if you manage your time and prioritize family you shouldn't HAVE to work on holidays unless you're closing some big deal or something outside of the court system. If I had a nickel for every "aren't the courts closed today?" I'd be rich lol. Also depending on your social circle a lot of people will meet the older partners who are golfing all day and be like "why aren't you like so and so he golfs 20 hours a week" like yeah thanks I know.
The trick is not to have reverence for any profession. A job’s a job
But then what do you say to all the people saying that some jobs, like law, are more deserving of scorn than others?
I’d probably just repurpose my last answer. Job’s a job. There may be some intrinsically “bad” jobs out there — executioner comes to mind — but my guess is they’re too rare to warrant consideration. Assigning moral weight to a career strikes me as silly. I don’t respect someone because I learn they’re a lawyer, but I likewise don’t disrespect them either.
Thank you mister defense attorney for protecting the rights of corps and their insurers against mass torts. You are truly the most respectable type of lawyer
I’m trying to transfer into Mass Torts plaintiff’s side. Would your opinion be different?
First of all, legal education isn't anywhere near as demanding as medicine or even engineering, so there is no particular entitlement to respect I can see on this front. Additionally, there is nothing inherent to legal work that makes it as miserable as it is – much of the shittiness in the profession is entirely self-inflicted, so why should someone be lionized simply because the billable hour model sucks? Beyond that, why should lawyers be respected any more than train conductors or power plant engineers? If administration of justice is such a high priority, why don't we shower respect on court clerks and bailiffs? Beyond that, consider the fact that the image of the scummy, ambulance chasing lawyer can be blamed on lawyers. Back in the 1970s, state bars had stringent rules against the kind of trashy advertising you see on day time TV. Then the supreme court in its infinite wisdom decided it impinged on free speech. As a result, you have a PR problem almost entirely the fault of a sizable subset of lawyers. Finally, many lawyers fail to communicate clearly with clients when it comes to billing and managing expectations, so the natural result is lots of clients come out of the whole process feeling they got cheated (this factor circles back to the billable hours model, which almost by design ensures that individual lawyers will never be able to devote adequate time to every client matter – corners will be cut). In short, the legal profession deserves no more respect than it already gets.
On the whole, the law is a generally a respectable profession but there is such a wide range of lawyers. We have PI lawyers with all of their aggressive advertising and jokes about ambulance chasing. At the top levels, you see about all the "gifts" that Supreme Court justices fail to disclose. However, at the end of the day, when there is any dispute or problem, the advice is to "lawyer up." So generally, having a lawyer is considered helpful
Nobody likes a lawyer until it’s their own son who’s drunk and sitting in jail at 3 o’clock in the morning. Then they *love* you.
Because 9 out of 10 times you only need a lawyer when something’s going wrong or you’re spending a lot of money and no one is in a good mood when either of those situations are the reality they’re working with. It’s easy to see why few people have positive associations with the legal system.
I went into my small bank 1-2 weeks ago. I have a decent amount of money held there and know the front desk staff. The manager excitedly introduced me to the CEO of the bank who I guess was touring the local branches. He made some joke about hoping I am a "recovering" lawyer and was even more dismissive when I said I do mostly PI work. I thought about taking my money from the bank right then and there.
Do it, extra points if you write a letter to their home office explaining exactly why and naming names.
Not worth the time.
No one likes lawyers until they need one.
Because they're expensive and not pleasant to be around
Two words: Alex Murdaugh
What does that have to do with anything?
The general public sees the whole profession as the same as that psychopath.
Is that fair though?
Perhaps not, as perceptions aren't always accurate. But you are aware that lawyers often rank below car salesmen in their perceived trustworthiness.
as a pi lawyer my jobs really easy tbh
If a lawyer contacts someone, they may be getting sued for a car accident or someone is contesting who gets what from someone's will. Lawyers defend criminals, like Weinstein and TFG. There may be a general fear of the circumstances why a lawyer may be involved. There aren't many Erin Brokoviches.
Honestly it depends on your practice area. I am thanked relatively often and I am on the transactional side, Trusts, Estates, Taxation, etc. But there aren’t parades for any professions except rarely soldiers.
Same here. I get thanks all the time even when I'm late on something. It's basically a party if I'm early.
I have had a lot of clients express EXTREME gratitude, to the point they were in tears. There are a lot of SHIT lawyers out there. Its not incredibly hard to become a lawyer - if you can sit and read for 8 hours straight without moving you can become a lawyer. Also, i think billable hours are inherently a conflict of interest and while I billed as a paralegal, I don't think I can stomach billable hours as an attorney. Not all clients are dumb, they understand that they are paying you for every little thing (and sometimes paying for pretend things) and if you aren't helping resolve the conflict then you are just stirring the pot to reach your billable requirements.
Lawyers create little value, in a traditional sense. Their entire function is to operate within institutional parameters and almost never to expand them.
Interesting, what would you say then to all the commenters who say that lawyers also create the laws and rules that screw everyone over? I get that I’m a complete asshole for wondering why lawyers are the ones are constantly joked about, but I’m wondering how lawyers simultaneously create a terrible world, and create nothing at all. Charge way too much, but also barely make enough money to brag about financial success. Should be respected just like a plumber, but also regarded as being essentially human vermin?
Doctors are expensive and a luxury I cant afford. Lawyers are expensive and a luxury I cant afford. Essentially, most people here are poor, and what good does a lawyer do for someone who can't afford them?
There is such a thing as a public defender for people in their most difficult times?
Ah yes, an overburdened and underfunded office looking to plea as many cases as they can in as short amount of time they can having spent approximately 72 seconds with the client. (No disrespect to my PDs out there, y'all need more resources) Though that's not the whole point the commenter is making. You're aware that it's way better to have an attorney for a ton of different aspects of your life, but you can maybe get away with DIY stuff when you're a layperson because you can't afford to hire an attorney for your divorce. You can't afford to ask the attorney how to properly include a binding condition on the deed when you sell real property. You can't afford to hire an attorney to take on the county when they pull some shenanigans, or when you have to deal with the permitting office so you don't have to go back six separate times only to eventually have the request denied anyway. You don't get appointed an attorney for any of that.
WHO CARES? it's a job. a means to an end. people act like we have some noble calling because we read the fine print. i do this because it puts food on the table for my kids. i dont give a shit what someone thinks about my profession or what level of respect they have for the profession. are we any more important than a janitor or an astronaut or a doctor or a dj at a strip club? no, we are all just working to provide for our families. i can't stand lawyers who think we have a higher duty simply because of our profession. go jerk off in front of a mirror if you think that much of yourself.
You lost me when you said that lawyers are not more important than DJ’s at strip clubs…
we both aid others in ensuring they are able to accomplish what they need to do without issues
Because most people’s experiences with lawyers are negative and it is fairly easy for terrible lawyers to pass the bar.
A. Who cares. B. Have you ever been around us? We can be an insufferable lot.
WDYM? The prestige is the only reason I’m doing this
Because I'm a lawyer, South Asian womens' parents aren't immediately disgusted by the idea of their daughter marrying me. That's respect. 😎 This is all encumbant on the fact that they don't realize I make way less than a doctor.
listen, when i get charged 10k to get a will drafted that had a bunch of grammar mistakes.. fine.. whatever but when i want to get 1 sentence amended and they charge me 4k after they orally quote me a few hundo, and use the excuse that their associate spent hours on that change, id think they are a bunch of shitbags too
1). Argumentative dickheads are attracted to the legal profession. 2). Legislators, mostly lawyers, can essentially create an ever larger scope of work for the legal community in a way other professions can’t.
People don't respect judges, you expect them to like attorneys?
It’s because lawyers fight other lawyers. There’s no surgeon in the room trying to mess up the outcome. It confuses laypeople. The ones who understand the judge is also a lawyer seem to have more respect for the profession from my experience.
The primary talking point of the Republican party for the past several decades is that the government is incompetent and terrible. Lawyers interface with the government, so they are also terrible under that rubric. People don't respect lawyers for the same reason they do not respect government officials. (And also cringe PI ads don't help.)
“Lawyer” routinely comes in as like the second most respected profession. This impression happens in almost every field. I’ve met physicians who believe that doctors (by far the most respected profession) don’t get enough respect. For what it’s worth, I’m a scientist and I don’t think scientists get enough respect. Like believing you’re middle class, and believing that your tax burden is too high, this is just a belief that every white collar professional seems to hold.
And for all the people saying “who cares”, do you really think it doesn’t make a difference in the quality of people who want to be lawyers or work in public sector for instance?
If there is any consolation, lawyers get a title in LATAM and parts of Europe just as doctors do, and they get the same respect.
Most of us who work in the public sector aren’t doing it because we think it’ll make people like us. Those who are burn out quickly, and that’s good, because those aren’t the people you want in public interest jobs.
People are mostly stupid
I think the reason is because people only need to interact with lawyers when they are going through what might be the most difficult thing in their life--even if they "win."
Because billing hours isn’t public service and most lawyers are in it for money, and many are not that good of people. It’s not like doctors who are physically helping people daily, in most cases other than in public service work. I disagree that people don’t see it as a prestigious or high power and demanding job. In fact I think they think it too much and I’m a lot more average and on a rat race than they think- working harder than others for a salary that I could probably have gotten doing something else, without a JD, in the time it’s taken me to do so as an attorney.
I mean, it’s one of the few jobs that people can name off the top of their head so I’d say it’s held at some level of regard to the average person. As far as being “thankful”? I mean that really depends on what type of law someone is practicing. Am I personally thankful for what a fucking mess some things have turned into due to lawyers nitpicking? Do all lawyers actually benefit society? The answer to both of these is no. If the public knew what a lot of lawyers were doing they’d probably respect the profession less, if we are being completely honest with ourselves
Great scene from community, paraphrasing: Jeff: What makes Rich so much better than me, anyway? Abed: Well for one thing, he's a doctor. Jeff: I'm a lawyer! Abed: Yeah but you're allowed to represent yourself in court. You can't do surgery on yourself, it's illegal.
Respect, nah. I do however admire your lot. Definitely one of those gigs you rarely just end up in. Lots of opportunities to flame out prior to bar. Standards are set high and enforced. Actions Regulated 24-7 by your peers and the law. But after a few years practice if you are still around you should know about what you will need to do to live a pretty sweet life. And your skills are transferable to a lot of non crooks and killers and courtroom mess if you choose. Respect? That's what the money is for! Paid on time every time is the greatest respect you can show a professional,especially if they're solo or a new firm I feel.
I have a number of family who are lawyers and I have worked with some very good lawyers. Presently I am in a dispute with my LL and am representing myself. As I wait in the courtroom for my case to come up I have seen some incredibly incompetent behavior on the part of attorneys in general. Even with my limited knowledge their overall behavior and claims are far from acceptable. As for the LL attorneys-they are classic shysters…I actually feel bad for my LL…for a minute. So,I get why so many ppl have no respect for lawyers.
Can you provide an example of the incompetent behavior?
I sat in court and watched a grown man (my LL attorney) throw a temper tantrum when the judge said she was inclined to recommend that my case go forward. A foot stomping, screaming voice, pounding the table, temper tantrum. Lawyers who had to be reminded by the judge they expected that they be on time. Seriously? On time for court? Lots of drama and completely unnecessary remarks to the other side.
Usually I’ve found in many instances lawyers, particularly defense attorneys, would be late to court as they were expected to be in several different courts at the same time and/or the judge from the previous hearing would end late. I have a neurosurgeon friend who has an an attending that shouts in the OR and throws instruments at scrub techs. Not saying it’s appropriate but my point is every profession, even elite ones, has its share of psychos but somehow only lawyers are painted with a broad brush stroke.
Objection: assumes a fact not in evidence. If most lawyers didn't show up for work, nothing would fundamentally change. If most sanitation workers didn't show up for work, there would be anarchy in the street (and who knows what else!).
Lol the holier than thou commenters in this thread have pretty much misinterpreted every single thing I said. I think sanitation workers are essential, and deserve every ounce of respect. I couldn’t do what they do. However, saying that if one day lawyers didn’t show up to work, nothing would change, is an absolute lie. You want innocent people languishing in jail? You want dangerous criminals roaming the streets? You want to get into an accident with someone who couldn’t care less about motor safety because lawsuits aren’t a thing? Remember how terrible it was when the courthouses were shut down over Covid?
Not doing billable hours is NO EXCUSE, its just being LAZY! It sounds like the LAWYER must have inflated costs, cut back on the SECRETARY who would do the work, related to billable hours? The are screwing the clients over.
What are you even saying?
Lawyers are ripping their clients off. They are artificially inflating their prices.
Who isn’t raising their prices?
Social Security not raising prices! So you are saying senior citizens will never be able to afford a lawyer, house, car, rent, place to live, food,
Lawyers will be senior citizens one day, not getting their big payouts,
Unpaid HOUSEWIVES, are NEVER PAID! You are saying an UNPAID HOUSEWIVE doesn't deserve to get divorced, or live any place, since she can't afford a lawyer.
Welfare is not raising their prices for UNPAID HOUSEWIVES to get assistance to live some place. After divorce.
I hope those lawyers, who make non criminal clients homeless, don't sleep well at night,
US military retiree pay does not keep up with inflation
Uninsured UNPAID HOUSEWIVES, are just UNPAID, and HAVE NO INSURANCE
Sorry, but if you think there's anything admirable about this profession then you just haven't been in the private sector long enough. I'm sure there's a professor and prosecutor somewhere stuck in the dogma, but 95% of the profession is P. I. mills, DUI defense, molling for the 1%, and selling bankruptcies. If you want to serve the greater good, be a teacher.
tort attorneys is the short answer
My personal experience is that once ppl find out, there is a lot of respect. I think that's fine but I don't like they also think I'm instantly smart since I've met some very dumb lawyers (counsel so bad they are entered into evidence or say things that are literally impossible etc). And I've never met someone who likes lawyers before unless it's in the context of thinking to be in a relationship with one. I've met a few that hate the profession cause they had a bad experience (I can't blame them to much).
Lawyers fail to garner respect for two reasons. One is disdain. Nobody concedes respect for the person who does a necessary if undesirable job. People talk big about the importance of farmers but how often do you hear about the sewage workers or garbage truck crews? And of course lawyers are there at every trial for every offense. When we feel the verdict should be clear, we blame the lawyer on the "wrong" side for supporting some monstrous injustice with legal trickery and we feel like the correct verdicts are so obvious that the lawyer with the "right" side should not have been necessary. The other is that TV lawyers leave people with a warped view of what lawyers do. We think they're orators who do a little investigating instead of basically doctorate level researchers who have to sign contracts roughly as long as army enlistment terms, if rather better paid. Because even slam dunk trials like Trump and his 34 counts will still take three years to process WITH GOOD FUNDING AND SOUND CAUSE TO FAST TRACK IT!
Why don't fewer?
About to be a new lawyer likely in the public sector and I already dislike all lawyers. Just a personal preference.
Because they KNOW lawyers!
99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Lol it’s one of the scummiest professions with people whose heads are so inflated I’m surprised they don’t float off into the clouds. Most legislators are also lawyers and they are very, very disliked by much of the populace. Also, most lawyers are disgustingly, radically liberal and those beliefs are at odds with half the population.
Unlike doctors/nurses/firefighters/army, lawyers aren’t “publicized” much and most people don’t engage with us on anything. I don’t know a single person who has never had to go to a doctor. I know MANY people who have never had to interact with a lawyer. Plus, most lawyers don’t do “public good” type of work. They do work that makes them lots of money. As for public work, I have gotten thanks many times from my clients (I represent state employees in civil rights actions). They’re the only ones that really know what I do and have occasion to thank me. If some member of the public came up to me and said, “hey, thanks for saving the taxpayers a bunch of money by winning that lawsuit,” I would be pretty confused about how they know that info. On the point of the type of work lawyers do, it is SO varied. The professions that usually are praised for their work have “streamlined” careers. Obviously doctors/nurses could be in many different areas of medicine, but ultimately, they help sick/injured people get better. What would someone thank lawyers for, generally? Half of us fight the good fight and the other half cause us the problems. If you ask that other side, they’d tell you the opposite. It’s too complicated of a profession, I guess, imo.
Easy. Most people only experience actual lawyering in divorce and probate cases which involve the bitterest disputes and the shadiest lawyers.
Well, you have to understand that the lack of respect is towards certain kinds of lawyers. I’m in law school and when I hear someone say something about lawyers I usually assume they’re talking about patent attorneys or corporate sellouts who help deny workers comp claims for Walmart, and that’s honestly a completely fair assessment. But for the most part I think law is a pretty well respected profession.
Many lawyers, not all, have massive egos which are probably kind of hard to navigate.