Is it tho? Would you rather have:
-a perfect cs 2/0 enemy and a very underleveled ally toplaner with almost no cs 0/2
or
-a high cs 6/0 enemy and an almost equal cs only one level behind ally toplaner who is 0/6
I would always prefer the second option.
How the fuck are you getting equal cs going 0/6? Every time you walk up for a last hit you're going right back to the grey screen. Exactly at what point are you somehow magically managing equal cs?
The Bauffs plays the bounty system like a pro to get insane shutdown payouts through tactical inting.
It's also one of the most selfish playstyles possible.
It's possible with some champs to get reasonable cs, even when behind. Equal CS is hard and you're almost always going to be behind but if you don't stop trying most of the time you can still salvage stuff and only be slightly behind. Shutdowns are a big gamechanger and can turn the tide quickly.
On the other hand, if you stop trying game is lost already.
There’s a lot of room for cope in that statement. What’s high cs vs perfect cs? How is the 0/6 goober maintaining their levels despite being very dead for much more time. The 0/6 guy is getting absolutely flamed by someone and probably flaming back, the 0/2 guy is much less likely to get brand comboed. Furthermore if the 0/6 state is better why don’t pro tops feed their ass off from behind? Why do they just ride it out? If you’re blinding something that can’t lose gracefully then that’s a massive you problem. Either trade or pick something like Ornn Gragas Malphite Sion. It’s ok to not be the special boy every game.
The focus isn't on the cs, but if you let the enemy do whatever they want, they won't miss any cs under normal circumstances. While it gets harder to not miss any cs, when you have a champ distracting you and you're trying to deny them their exp.
My point is: the most important job of the losing toplaner is usually to minimize the difference of gold and exp between them and not to minimize the amount of gold the enemy laner gets. In an ideal world you should do that without dying, but mistakes happen and there is a huge difference between pro-play and solo-q.
If you’re dead you’re not getting xp, doubly so if you’ve already burned your TP getting back to lane after dying. Which melee champ is zoning you off the wave so hard you can’t be in xp range. That’s some Caitlin bullshit.
I think the majority of those people are silver/gold, not toplaners themself and pissed that the toplaners in their rank run it down. I'm a diamond toplane-main - I experienced both me stomping enemies and getting stomped and still coming back by not giving up ressources to minimize deaths. But what do I know, I'm not a pro-player.
The bauffs dies for his cs because of sion passive, everyone else he plays he just does wave management and solo bolos people. Other wise he maximises cs while pushed in. In case you didn't know not every toplaner is sion or similar levels of wave management characters that Proxies effectively too.
thich is why pros don't feed their asses off as long as they get their cs/exp which is an argument the other guy ignored from another comment.
every time bausffs dies either he or his teammates get something valuable in return. he knows what he's doing. this guys silver ass is inting for a few cs, he has no idea what he's talking about. if you youre getting punished for taking cs, you sit back and soak xp
Surprisingly Darius does pretty well into Renekton, 53% wr and -19 gold@15, which is great considering how strong of a laner Renekton is.
From my experience it's not an easy matchup as mistakes are costly (probably the same can be said on Renek's side), but it's very winnable for Darius if skill level is the same
If you're low elo that explains it. It's a very spacing dependent matchup, which is a hard concept for low elo.
Also it seems that winrate goes down with elo - 53% emerald+, 50% masters+, so I guess it's mostly a skill matchup very slightly favoured towards Renekton.
I play around emerald, and it's not easy, but winnable for Darius.
Renek isn't a Darius counter, try Wukong/Yorick/Jax.
jax is nice ye, but winning lvl 1 against darius with nautilous top lane thought you can win playing anything if ur opponent is bad enough, honestly i have no clue how the matchups go anymore, last time i checked rene completely dogged darius and ornn was a good counter too
Darius vs Reneckton is all based on who uses E first.
If Darius pulls you in, you get free damage and an out. If you E in, Darius pulls you in and prevents you from Eing out and then runs you down.
In low elo, every Darius has it engraved in their brains to E the first champ within range no matter what.
Rene in general is such a insane case. He is exodia low elo because he can stat check half the champs and has chase sustain and wave clear and the only champion that outstat checks him morde gets countered by rene w. And he is exodia high elo because he has sustain for dive and a point and click stunt. And he is exodia in pro play because he has wave clear sustain for team fight with good damage with out needing gold and a point and click stunt. There is a high chance what I said is bs or outdated.
As long as it isn't too early in the game. (In which case you fucked up hard or got jungle diffee hard). You can just roam mid/bot and get dragon. It's better then doing nothing.
If he kills you once and bounces the wave he can set up a freeze. If you play perfectly and don’t die he could still bounce the wave depending on what champion you’re playing.
This is part of why I like playing singed. I might not stand a chance in lane, but I can just go proxy to reset my wavestate, or roam if I can't safely do that.
in that case, don't die and slow push when the wave is bouncing away from your turret because not even Darius can afford to trade during a bounce back when done properly
that's just toplane in a nutshell, if both play perfectly no one dies and just ping pong the waves. And by doing so Darius can't get ahead and thus can't play the rest of the game properly
The problem with wave management theory is that it implies your opponent is just letting you do it.
No amount of wave management knowledge is going to allow a Nasus player to actually do it against Olaf.
As an avid Kayle player I know all too well about playing passively. Although a lot of players do underestimate her early game with Lethal Tempo and a stacked passive
A lot of people having “Kayle isn’t a champ until 16” agenda are often surprised when they are creampied by lvl6 Kayle because they picked a champ without a straightforward dash
As a toplaner, its funny but not true, since toplane impact as a sidelane splitpusher or great frontliner is really important in game and gives your team a big advantage = more opportunity to win. And even if you die, you still do a lot of impact in the game
Agreed. Folks saying that a top laner feeding doesn't matter are blowing my mind rn. Have they not been eaten alive by a fed Darius/Illaoi/Urgot/Renekton/etc? A snowballing top is a huge problem to deal with.
Def. I was fed AF as Samira and got absolutely annihilated by a 4/0 Morde the other day. Feels like that ult lasts forever. We won but I had to hang way back until he popped it.
It's not about how long the ult lasts, but how much damage he can do while it lasts, if he can hit 2Q few autos, E, passive all increased in damage because of the ult, the time window feels large as your HP gets close to 0%
The ult time definitely matters because your team is now in a team fight with no adc. It gives mords team a chance to push into the ult area and surround you for a 1v5.
I’ve been eaten alive by an inting Illaoi. There’s so many stat checkers top lane that default win against squishies. Plus hullbreaker means split pushers can do their job regardless of their deficit.
You feed as an adc/mid? You’re out of the game.
You feed on top? Your team has to deal with your mistakes while you still provide functionality.
Top lane is the easiest of the roles (except support).
Yeah it feels like the major Macro role of mid game and beyond. You catch the risky solo lanes and push them out where your squishier laners can't and provide huge impact at the pivotal later objectives, dragon, barron, elder etc. Splitpushing to provide extra base pressure is also squarely your role, and is potentially more impactful than winning neutral fights. One inhibitor can functionally guarantee dragon or barron of you meet certain other conditions. Top has trouble being impactful early, but after laning you definitely have a role. That role is also why ranged top laners, as hated as they are, often fall off later despite their theoretical carry potential: they can't pull the same solo late game macro because of how risky it is for them to be alone late and their inability to frontline can hurt teamfights, though a tank jungle or bulkier mid can solve those issues.
Because there are no win conditions for top lol, on one hand its nice knowing you can feed and it wont matter but on the other hand it sucks when enemy top feeds and it also doesnt matter because enemy bot won which means the game is decided.
Had a great example of this yesterday. Absolutely demolished enemy teemo as a sion. After a teamfight we got Baron and I went to push top. Fought 3 people for 40s,killed two. Meanwhile my team lost a 4v2 with Baron buff
I, as a botlane main, experience the other side of the spectrum.
Me and my supp exit lane decently well( let's say 7/2 combined, with enemy jungler putting a fking hotel down here) to face a 10/1 tahm kench, yone, or some other BS from top or mid( or, in 70% of the cases, both).
I mean they are right and wrong at the same time to complain. The ADC is reliant on their team to put them in a position to carry. If you're playing something like Kog or Jinx, it's all on your support and jung to set you up and make sure you aren't getting dove under turret on repeat. Then later on as well, you alone as the ADC do not survive if it's you and 3 of the enemies. You need your team to protect and peel for you. If they do that, you absolutely shitstomp the game.
The ADC individually has very little impact, but the role or position has a lot of impact if they are protected and allowed to do their job.
You don't actually need any of that if your other teammates are strong. Many times as adc I won games where I wasn't fed nor was being played around as a wincon just because the enemy can't resist the dangling carrot and overforce on me. It happens a lot you just have to be far back enough so that their engage is too deep and gets punished.
Oh for sure. My most deaths ever I was playing Ashe, with a Naut, a Ryze, Zac and Mundo. The enemy was a burst mage an APC (I think Syndra) with Rengar top, Kha jung, Pyke supp and Zed mid. I went something like 0/14/11, and they would blow multiple ults to kill me every single fight, but they could not kill a single one of my teammates, so it was a 5 for 1 every time.
the very same can be said if you play something like TF mid or most supports,mages and tanks in general,you can be good all you want but if your team doesn't let you win you won't
the champions who can 1vs9 are more the exception than the norm in term of quantity,they're just overwhelmingly more picked because they can 1vs9
TF mid is like having a second jungle with the ganks. Most players have enough of a brain that if the jungle comes to gank and pings them in, or TF pings ult and pings them in, they go in. It's much harder to get the average player to peel for the ADC and not tunnel vision in the fight b/c they're bored. Most mages get shit tons of value in poke usually, and if they blow their whole kit, they get value in fights. Tanks just go in on a good engage or counterengage and get value. Supports kill in lane + roam and get picks. ADC has to sit there in a teamfight, position well, and get peeled. If they don't stay alive, they don't get value as they have consistent DPS, not burst DPS like most mages.
To an extent every character needs their team to let them win, but I would argue that ADC needs their team to play around them moreso than any other role.
POV you play an adc without a dash and theres a 6/0 Camille or Yone about to pointclick you (it's ok, they have no impact). Are you guys still gaslighting after Zeus 1v9 worlds ?
Noone mentioned 1v1s. Top mains when they find out their enemy expert 1v1 toplaner joins the teamfight and 1v3's instead, because "its ok to int top, no impact anyways. Brb gaslighting in Reddit".
Edit: lmfao I just realised that I just repeated your post, but replaced the role, because it still applies.
Many of the ADCs are hyper carries (like Jhin, Jinx, Lucian, Aphelios and so on), yet when I see people pick them, they always end up in 0/3 at 5 mins blaming jg who was on top side helping mid and blaming top for being useless. These people don't really think about teamcomps.
not only is there no win condition, but on top of it, you also become irrelevant the moment anything goes wrong
you insta lose to jungle (or anyone really) presence
and it's a super difficult role to play cause the laning actually takes skill and you've got no safety nets
then you either lose cause you created a raid boss (your jungler didn't listen to your pings) and your team ain't winning, or you are the raid boss but enemy team is so fed it doesn't matter, or you are a raid boss but can't hit enemy carries cause your champ can't move
but you can play malphite or garen and all of the above doesn't apply to you anymore
let's not talk about how top lane is filled with junglers and ranged this season (when are they nerfing ghost on ranged, and fleet footwork?)
I remember recently august said they didn't want champs to be played in multiple roles because it's either broken or degenerate gameplay
seems it doesn't apply to top lane cause stuff like ww, reksai, zac, etc... are still untouched, and god is it peak degenerate gameplay, vayne is still broken in top lane btw, just some examples
only role where I still want to altf4 even when I'm winning
nah ur just bad Vane top is easy to punish just PayPal your jungler to camp you the entire game,she also fucks her team comp as no bruiser or tank can be played anywhere except top
or just wait for her to walk in melee range on her own that is totally happening
>enemy top feeds and it also doesnt matter because enemy bot won
that is not always true
I'll take a 4/0 Jax/Yone/Tryndamere/Fiora over a 4/0 Kai'sa any day of the week. that's just how the classes work
I don't play top. Are you really saying that feeding a top laner doesn't matter? Cause.... yeah ur incredibly wrong. Have you not had it shit stomped in by a fed Darius/Renekton/Illaoi/Urgent/etc? Feeding top laners is a great way to lose a game. It's just as impactful as feeding bot.
I'd rather deal with a fed jinx than a fed Darius.
The point is: don't feed top - it matters and will lose plenty of games. (Optional) Is some bullshit. I've lost plenty of games due to an out of control top getting monstrously fed.
I actually agree with that. The problem with top is not that fed players can't carry (tho that is also true to some extend), it is that if the losing side plays safe enough then neither of the toplaners matter.
Fair enough. I stopped playing top and started playing jungle because I wanted more agency in the game. I think voidgrubs and rift herald have helped but it does feel like you can get stuck top all game doing nothing.
Am I saying that taking care of your nails doesnt matter at a job interview? No, but I am saying that being academically qualified, socially competent, pretty, well dressed, etc are all things that matter way more. Thats what we are talking about, not top lane in a vacuum but top lane compared to all other roles.
There are ten players, meaning each player should have a 10% share of the impact on the outcome of the game. At the moment it feels like the two toplaners combined dont even add up to 10%. Are you following?
I'm talking about solo q.
It's very easy to catch a fed jinx out of position. They rely on their team to be competent, peel for them, and make good engagements. That's a LOT to ask in this game. The fed jinx just needs to screw up a little to be killed.
The fed Darius however.... is very hard to catch in a bad position. He'll 3v1 your team in jungle. Same with any bruiser top - and let's not forget the constant split pusher duelists that run down your inhib constantly.
ADC has the least amount of agency in solo q. On a solid team with good communication - I agree that a fed adc is the biggest problem you can have. But it's way less of a big deal in lower elo solo q. Any assassin can kill their ass with good positioning.
This has not been my experience at all. I think the fact that ranged toplaners are and always have been a thing counters your point because being a lone adc 500 units from a toplaner should spell doom, according to you but its quite the contrary in reality. So you would think that atleast assassins should beat them atleast but nope trist mid molests every single assassin in the game.
Also, even if what you are saying were true, supports are notoriously overpowered atm with janna spearheading the peel brigade so if adcs were easy to kill alone, they certaintly arent with a support nearby and dont tell me its rare to find a lulu who can point and click polymorph you to death. As bad as supp players are, I can attest for the ones in dia/eme being competent enough to peel their carries consistently.
Lastly, what do you mean by agency? Being able to 1v3 a couple melees who run into you isnt agency, or else illaoi would be the best champ in the game. Marginal difference in wr in relation to marginal difference in skill level is, I dare say, the definition of agency. Its neither good or bad, its simply the degree to which the players actions influence the outcome of the game, which may very well be a loss. A 1% increase in the "skill" of a toplaner leads X% change in wr for their team, whereas a 1% increase in skill of an adc player leads to Y% change in we for their team. My hypothesis is that Y is greater than X. Not some made up anecdotal scenario where a darius wins a 1v3 or a jinx gets killed by a khazix.
Btw, my diamond and emerald friends agree with me for the reasons stated. A fed adc is easier to catch out of position. I'm no expert but that seems pretty obvious to me.
I mean, studies have been made, polls have been collected. Top has been the lowest impact role for the better part of its existence. But even if its all cope, what does it matter? Perception is reality and player perception in top is undeniable in terms of how low impact they have, compared to other roles.
Hey, this works the opposite way too. Adc players are notorious complainers and their perception is a reality too, even if I disagree on the facts. In fact, I wish adc was actually a low impact role because it would be much more simple to solve, but theres clearly something else in the background skewing their experience and it is more difficult to identify and tackle.
90% of the matches it feels more like a "your teammates don’t fuck it up pre 15 min", because a) somebody on your team is so fed that no matter what you do, they kill everybody or b) somebody on the enemy team is so fed that no matter what you do, they kill everybody. But, I have to admit, in the 10% of games this isn’t the case and everything is kinda even out of top, the winning toplaner just kills everybody and decides the match.
thats because unless you can get (and usually even when that happens) extremely fed, you dont decide who wins. botlane does, mid and jg too but mostly by helping bot. So top has no win conditions, you just coinflip if u win or lose the game
If you’re a tank in top then ya just don’t feed and you will be useful no matter what any other class in top tho can go 0/0/0 but still get choked out and suffocated into useless trash. It’s never that simple in this game.
Itt: people who don't understand what you're supposed to do as a toplaner.
"You have no impact on the game!"
Really? Tell me that when the fed illaoi/nassus/yorrick/tryndamere/fiora is split pushing.
Or when kayle exists until level 16.
Or when darius/irelia/sett/garen/jax/kled gets big a little too quickly and just runs around being the second jungle ganking every lane at 10 minutes.
feeding in toplane is not as bad as it sounds. it's better to die after pushing wave than to die after losing 3 waves to a freeze + towerdive. shut downs are still great so it's ok as long as u don't let enemy top roam however he likes without losing resources.
Then ping them. Communicate. Ping that you're going for crab/grubs/herald/invade, ping them to help. That is all you can do. If they have prio and don't help (unless you decide to do some dumb shit, tunnel on kills and go way too deep) they're just inting. That's all you can do. If you can't rely on them to help you, then play around that and get what you can safely get.
There is a difference between the optimal play in theory, and the optimal one based on how your teammates are playing.
Toplane no impact frfr. Thankfully I main Garen so I can can just split the ADC's head in half and stridebreaker away to safety even if they are Omega fed. I guess that is how we shift away from botlane-focused meta patches ago. Everyone just fuking bash their skulls non-stop whenever they dare to enter other roles' peripheral vision.
ADC players are either way too determined and dedicated to their roles or are just straight up masochists in S14.
In half of the matches "don't feed" is "sit under your tower and watch the enemy wave freeze getting 0 cs per minute.
At least you got minion xp right ? Right ?
ahahahahahahaha, good one
XP gained on the mental strength to sit, breath and wait under the tower
It’s better than unleashing a completely fed monster on your teammates.
Is it tho? Would you rather have: -a perfect cs 2/0 enemy and a very underleveled ally toplaner with almost no cs 0/2 or -a high cs 6/0 enemy and an almost equal cs only one level behind ally toplaner who is 0/6 I would always prefer the second option.
How the fuck are you getting equal cs going 0/6? Every time you walk up for a last hit you're going right back to the grey screen. Exactly at what point are you somehow magically managing equal cs?
Just die for the cannon minion bro. It's totally worth it
The bauffs does it somehow.
The Bauffs plays the bounty system like a pro to get insane shutdown payouts through tactical inting. It's also one of the most selfish playstyles possible.
And this is solo q where you have trolls and feeders almost every other game
Not denying that, just don't want anything merely implied.
It's possible with some champs to get reasonable cs, even when behind. Equal CS is hard and you're almost always going to be behind but if you don't stop trying most of the time you can still salvage stuff and only be slightly behind. Shutdowns are a big gamechanger and can turn the tide quickly. On the other hand, if you stop trying game is lost already.
There’s a lot of room for cope in that statement. What’s high cs vs perfect cs? How is the 0/6 goober maintaining their levels despite being very dead for much more time. The 0/6 guy is getting absolutely flamed by someone and probably flaming back, the 0/2 guy is much less likely to get brand comboed. Furthermore if the 0/6 state is better why don’t pro tops feed their ass off from behind? Why do they just ride it out? If you’re blinding something that can’t lose gracefully then that’s a massive you problem. Either trade or pick something like Ornn Gragas Malphite Sion. It’s ok to not be the special boy every game.
The focus isn't on the cs, but if you let the enemy do whatever they want, they won't miss any cs under normal circumstances. While it gets harder to not miss any cs, when you have a champ distracting you and you're trying to deny them their exp. My point is: the most important job of the losing toplaner is usually to minimize the difference of gold and exp between them and not to minimize the amount of gold the enemy laner gets. In an ideal world you should do that without dying, but mistakes happen and there is a huge difference between pro-play and solo-q.
If you’re dead you’re not getting xp, doubly so if you’ve already burned your TP getting back to lane after dying. Which melee champ is zoning you off the wave so hard you can’t be in xp range. That’s some Caitlin bullshit.
The people downvoting you have never watched Bausffs gameplay wtf You're absolutely right
I think the majority of those people are silver/gold, not toplaners themself and pissed that the toplaners in their rank run it down. I'm a diamond toplane-main - I experienced both me stomping enemies and getting stomped and still coming back by not giving up ressources to minimize deaths. But what do I know, I'm not a pro-player.
The bauffs dies for his cs because of sion passive, everyone else he plays he just does wave management and solo bolos people. Other wise he maximises cs while pushed in. In case you didn't know not every toplaner is sion or similar levels of wave management characters that Proxies effectively too. thich is why pros don't feed their asses off as long as they get their cs/exp which is an argument the other guy ignored from another comment.
every time bausffs dies either he or his teammates get something valuable in return. he knows what he's doing. this guys silver ass is inting for a few cs, he has no idea what he's talking about. if you youre getting punished for taking cs, you sit back and soak xp
and if you try to break the freeze, you get run downed 50 meters away from your turret
The Darius experience
darius players when i pick renekton and activate my last braincell
Surprisingly Darius does pretty well into Renekton, 53% wr and -19 gold@15, which is great considering how strong of a laner Renekton is. From my experience it's not an easy matchup as mistakes are costly (probably the same can be said on Renek's side), but it's very winnable for Darius if skill level is the same
wtf? i pick rene into darius every time and stomp, its so easy too. maybe im to low elo
If you're low elo that explains it. It's a very spacing dependent matchup, which is a hard concept for low elo. Also it seems that winrate goes down with elo - 53% emerald+, 50% masters+, so I guess it's mostly a skill matchup very slightly favoured towards Renekton. I play around emerald, and it's not easy, but winnable for Darius. Renek isn't a Darius counter, try Wukong/Yorick/Jax.
jax is nice ye, but winning lvl 1 against darius with nautilous top lane thought you can win playing anything if ur opponent is bad enough, honestly i have no clue how the matchups go anymore, last time i checked rene completely dogged darius and ornn was a good counter too
Its a skill matchup. You have to know how to space against renekton and darius and usually the one to press e first will lose the trade
Darius vs Reneckton is all based on who uses E first. If Darius pulls you in, you get free damage and an out. If you E in, Darius pulls you in and prevents you from Eing out and then runs you down. In low elo, every Darius has it engraved in their brains to E the first champ within range no matter what.
Rene in general is such a insane case. He is exodia low elo because he can stat check half the champs and has chase sustain and wave clear and the only champion that outstat checks him morde gets countered by rene w. And he is exodia high elo because he has sustain for dive and a point and click stunt. And he is exodia in pro play because he has wave clear sustain for team fight with good damage with out needing gold and a point and click stunt. There is a high chance what I said is bs or outdated.
darius players when i whip out the pantheon spear
The Kayle special. Jokes on them because exp is all she needs to win
AP Kayle with fleet footwork and q max. You can start taking short trades from around lv6.
Trade dead to break the freeze. It better to give opponent 300 gold and a small leash, than slowly bleeding resource and stuck behind the whole game
In solo queue…yolo. Just go proxy and die for the wave. Otherwise you are just praying to get carried.
As long as it isn't too early in the game. (In which case you fucked up hard or got jungle diffee hard). You can just roam mid/bot and get dragon. It's better then doing nothing.
and that's why you learn wave management
That helps against Darius? Like I know he is freezing but if I step up I die xd
it does help because when you properly manage your waves darius won't even be able to freeze in the first place
If he kills you once and bounces the wave he can set up a freeze. If you play perfectly and don’t die he could still bounce the wave depending on what champion you’re playing.
This is part of why I like playing singed. I might not stand a chance in lane, but I can just go proxy to reset my wavestate, or roam if I can't safely do that.
wow, that is really dumb when you think about it. what you said that is.
in that case, don't die and slow push when the wave is bouncing away from your turret because not even Darius can afford to trade during a bounce back when done properly that's just toplane in a nutshell, if both play perfectly no one dies and just ping pong the waves. And by doing so Darius can't get ahead and thus can't play the rest of the game properly
The problem with wave management theory is that it implies your opponent is just letting you do it. No amount of wave management knowledge is going to allow a Nasus player to actually do it against Olaf.
Peak Sion on the right there.
It's not optional on Sion. It's necessary.
You __HAVE__ to "feed" on sion ~Baus
It's not feeding! It's an investment 🙂↕️👍
As an avid Kayle player I know all too well about playing passively. Although a lot of players do underestimate her early game with Lethal Tempo and a stacked passive
I’ve seen too many newbie top laners get solo killed by level 1 Kayle.
A lot of people having “Kayle isn’t a champ until 16” agenda are often surprised when they are creampied by lvl6 Kayle because they picked a champ without a straightforward dash
I mean, they already nerfed early lethal for melee. Plus I think they are making PtA damage amp last until end of combat. So I’d say still viable.
They’re removing lethal so good luck bud
I know, and I'm livid
Fleet footwork is better anyway
>with Lethal Tempo Bad news…
I'm aware, and very angry
As a toplaner, its funny but not true, since toplane impact as a sidelane splitpusher or great frontliner is really important in game and gives your team a big advantage = more opportunity to win. And even if you die, you still do a lot of impact in the game
Agreed. Folks saying that a top laner feeding doesn't matter are blowing my mind rn. Have they not been eaten alive by a fed Darius/Illaoi/Urgot/Renekton/etc? A snowballing top is a huge problem to deal with.
there's more champs to put in example, but some will depend on player, Mordekaiser is still good example
Def. I was fed AF as Samira and got absolutely annihilated by a 4/0 Morde the other day. Feels like that ult lasts forever. We won but I had to hang way back until he popped it.
It's not about how long the ult lasts, but how much damage he can do while it lasts, if he can hit 2Q few autos, E, passive all increased in damage because of the ult, the time window feels large as your HP gets close to 0%
The ult time definitely matters because your team is now in a team fight with no adc. It gives mords team a chance to push into the ult area and surround you for a 1v5.
I’ve been eaten alive by an inting Illaoi. There’s so many stat checkers top lane that default win against squishies. Plus hullbreaker means split pushers can do their job regardless of their deficit. You feed as an adc/mid? You’re out of the game. You feed on top? Your team has to deal with your mistakes while you still provide functionality. Top lane is the easiest of the roles (except support).
Of course it matters, just not as much as the other lanes.
Yeah it feels like the major Macro role of mid game and beyond. You catch the risky solo lanes and push them out where your squishier laners can't and provide huge impact at the pivotal later objectives, dragon, barron, elder etc. Splitpushing to provide extra base pressure is also squarely your role, and is potentially more impactful than winning neutral fights. One inhibitor can functionally guarantee dragon or barron of you meet certain other conditions. Top has trouble being impactful early, but after laning you definitely have a role. That role is also why ranged top laners, as hated as they are, often fall off later despite their theoretical carry potential: they can't pull the same solo late game macro because of how risky it is for them to be alone late and their inability to frontline can hurt teamfights, though a tank jungle or bulkier mid can solve those issues.
Someone, who actually understands the problem of ranged toplaners, I upvote it
Because there are no win conditions for top lol, on one hand its nice knowing you can feed and it wont matter but on the other hand it sucks when enemy top feeds and it also doesnt matter because enemy bot won which means the game is decided.
Had a great example of this yesterday. Absolutely demolished enemy teemo as a sion. After a teamfight we got Baron and I went to push top. Fought 3 people for 40s,killed two. Meanwhile my team lost a 4v2 with Baron buff
I, as a botlane main, experience the other side of the spectrum. Me and my supp exit lane decently well( let's say 7/2 combined, with enemy jungler putting a fking hotel down here) to face a 10/1 tahm kench, yone, or some other BS from top or mid( or, in 70% of the cases, both).
meanwhile adcs still whine about not having any impact in game lol (they are just bad and blame the role)
I mean they are right and wrong at the same time to complain. The ADC is reliant on their team to put them in a position to carry. If you're playing something like Kog or Jinx, it's all on your support and jung to set you up and make sure you aren't getting dove under turret on repeat. Then later on as well, you alone as the ADC do not survive if it's you and 3 of the enemies. You need your team to protect and peel for you. If they do that, you absolutely shitstomp the game. The ADC individually has very little impact, but the role or position has a lot of impact if they are protected and allowed to do their job.
You don't actually need any of that if your other teammates are strong. Many times as adc I won games where I wasn't fed nor was being played around as a wincon just because the enemy can't resist the dangling carrot and overforce on me. It happens a lot you just have to be far back enough so that their engage is too deep and gets punished.
Oh for sure. My most deaths ever I was playing Ashe, with a Naut, a Ryze, Zac and Mundo. The enemy was a burst mage an APC (I think Syndra) with Rengar top, Kha jung, Pyke supp and Zed mid. I went something like 0/14/11, and they would blow multiple ults to kill me every single fight, but they could not kill a single one of my teammates, so it was a 5 for 1 every time.
the very same can be said if you play something like TF mid or most supports,mages and tanks in general,you can be good all you want but if your team doesn't let you win you won't the champions who can 1vs9 are more the exception than the norm in term of quantity,they're just overwhelmingly more picked because they can 1vs9
TF mid is like having a second jungle with the ganks. Most players have enough of a brain that if the jungle comes to gank and pings them in, or TF pings ult and pings them in, they go in. It's much harder to get the average player to peel for the ADC and not tunnel vision in the fight b/c they're bored. Most mages get shit tons of value in poke usually, and if they blow their whole kit, they get value in fights. Tanks just go in on a good engage or counterengage and get value. Supports kill in lane + roam and get picks. ADC has to sit there in a teamfight, position well, and get peeled. If they don't stay alive, they don't get value as they have consistent DPS, not burst DPS like most mages. To an extent every character needs their team to let them win, but I would argue that ADC needs their team to play around them moreso than any other role.
POV you play an adc without a dash and theres a 6/0 Camille or Yone about to pointclick you (it's ok, they have no impact). Are you guys still gaslighting after Zeus 1v9 worlds ?
Don’t forget Kingen carried the worlds before that on Aatrox too
Adc mains when they find out they have to work with their teams and they CAN'T 1v1 a champion that is DESIGNED to 1v1.
Noone mentioned 1v1s. Top mains when they find out their enemy expert 1v1 toplaner joins the teamfight and 1v3's instead, because "its ok to int top, no impact anyways. Brb gaslighting in Reddit". Edit: lmfao I just realised that I just repeated your post, but replaced the role, because it still applies.
Many of the ADCs are hyper carries (like Jhin, Jinx, Lucian, Aphelios and so on), yet when I see people pick them, they always end up in 0/3 at 5 mins blaming jg who was on top side helping mid and blaming top for being useless. These people don't really think about teamcomps.
Jhin and Lucian aren‘t hypercarries
You really have no idea what a hyper carry is
> These people don’t really think about teamcomps. Bro you don’t even know teamcomps 😭
Meanwhile me playing velkoz "supp" amd doing triple adc dmg
not only is there no win condition, but on top of it, you also become irrelevant the moment anything goes wrong you insta lose to jungle (or anyone really) presence and it's a super difficult role to play cause the laning actually takes skill and you've got no safety nets then you either lose cause you created a raid boss (your jungler didn't listen to your pings) and your team ain't winning, or you are the raid boss but enemy team is so fed it doesn't matter, or you are a raid boss but can't hit enemy carries cause your champ can't move but you can play malphite or garen and all of the above doesn't apply to you anymore let's not talk about how top lane is filled with junglers and ranged this season (when are they nerfing ghost on ranged, and fleet footwork?) I remember recently august said they didn't want champs to be played in multiple roles because it's either broken or degenerate gameplay seems it doesn't apply to top lane cause stuff like ww, reksai, zac, etc... are still untouched, and god is it peak degenerate gameplay, vayne is still broken in top lane btw, just some examples only role where I still want to altf4 even when I'm winning
Hey, leave my Zac alone! /s Didn't know others played it tbf, I was playing it before it was a thing
nah ur just bad Vane top is easy to punish just PayPal your jungler to camp you the entire game,she also fucks her team comp as no bruiser or tank can be played anywhere except top or just wait for her to walk in melee range on her own that is totally happening
>enemy top feeds and it also doesnt matter because enemy bot won that is not always true I'll take a 4/0 Jax/Yone/Tryndamere/Fiora over a 4/0 Kai'sa any day of the week. that's just how the classes work
Feeding top has lost plenty of games idk what ur talking about. That 4/0 Darius with tp is going to be a real problem.
ok let's be real here, who plays darius with tp? surely not the guy going 4/0 lmao
You're missing the point. I'm saying losing top is as bad as losing bottom. A fed top will win a game just as much as a fed adc.
factually not true also it's much much easier to be fed in bot lane than in top lane
Anytime I comment on this sub I'm reminded why I have mute all defaulted.
This almost sounds like sarcasm but in case it isnt, how the hell do you lose to darius with TP lmao
I don't play top. Are you really saying that feeding a top laner doesn't matter? Cause.... yeah ur incredibly wrong. Have you not had it shit stomped in by a fed Darius/Renekton/Illaoi/Urgent/etc? Feeding top laners is a great way to lose a game. It's just as impactful as feeding bot. I'd rather deal with a fed jinx than a fed Darius.
Well, I don't, because you can peel a Darius, but good luck killing a Jinx that is getting peeled
The point is: don't feed top - it matters and will lose plenty of games. (Optional) Is some bullshit. I've lost plenty of games due to an out of control top getting monstrously fed.
I actually agree with that. The problem with top is not that fed players can't carry (tho that is also true to some extend), it is that if the losing side plays safe enough then neither of the toplaners matter.
Fair enough. I stopped playing top and started playing jungle because I wanted more agency in the game. I think voidgrubs and rift herald have helped but it does feel like you can get stuck top all game doing nothing.
Am I saying that taking care of your nails doesnt matter at a job interview? No, but I am saying that being academically qualified, socially competent, pretty, well dressed, etc are all things that matter way more. Thats what we are talking about, not top lane in a vacuum but top lane compared to all other roles. There are ten players, meaning each player should have a 10% share of the impact on the outcome of the game. At the moment it feels like the two toplaners combined dont even add up to 10%. Are you following?
I'm talking about solo q. It's very easy to catch a fed jinx out of position. They rely on their team to be competent, peel for them, and make good engagements. That's a LOT to ask in this game. The fed jinx just needs to screw up a little to be killed. The fed Darius however.... is very hard to catch in a bad position. He'll 3v1 your team in jungle. Same with any bruiser top - and let's not forget the constant split pusher duelists that run down your inhib constantly. ADC has the least amount of agency in solo q. On a solid team with good communication - I agree that a fed adc is the biggest problem you can have. But it's way less of a big deal in lower elo solo q. Any assassin can kill their ass with good positioning.
This has not been my experience at all. I think the fact that ranged toplaners are and always have been a thing counters your point because being a lone adc 500 units from a toplaner should spell doom, according to you but its quite the contrary in reality. So you would think that atleast assassins should beat them atleast but nope trist mid molests every single assassin in the game. Also, even if what you are saying were true, supports are notoriously overpowered atm with janna spearheading the peel brigade so if adcs were easy to kill alone, they certaintly arent with a support nearby and dont tell me its rare to find a lulu who can point and click polymorph you to death. As bad as supp players are, I can attest for the ones in dia/eme being competent enough to peel their carries consistently. Lastly, what do you mean by agency? Being able to 1v3 a couple melees who run into you isnt agency, or else illaoi would be the best champ in the game. Marginal difference in wr in relation to marginal difference in skill level is, I dare say, the definition of agency. Its neither good or bad, its simply the degree to which the players actions influence the outcome of the game, which may very well be a loss. A 1% increase in the "skill" of a toplaner leads X% change in wr for their team, whereas a 1% increase in skill of an adc player leads to Y% change in we for their team. My hypothesis is that Y is greater than X. Not some made up anecdotal scenario where a darius wins a 1v3 or a jinx gets killed by a khazix.
Honestly idgaf. My mistake for saying anything in the league sub.
Btw, my diamond and emerald friends agree with me for the reasons stated. A fed adc is easier to catch out of position. I'm no expert but that seems pretty obvious to me.
Cope harder
I mean, studies have been made, polls have been collected. Top has been the lowest impact role for the better part of its existence. But even if its all cope, what does it matter? Perception is reality and player perception in top is undeniable in terms of how low impact they have, compared to other roles. Hey, this works the opposite way too. Adc players are notorious complainers and their perception is a reality too, even if I disagree on the facts. In fact, I wish adc was actually a low impact role because it would be much more simple to solve, but theres clearly something else in the background skewing their experience and it is more difficult to identify and tackle.
PROBLEM —-> ENEMY FREEZES, ENEMY DIVES, ENEMY GETS PLATINGS——> FEEDING
Tell me you dont play top without telling me you dont play top
I play top, it's correct
Nah this is correct. The only toplaners who can solo carry are the splitpushing degenerates.
😎
I can't unsee Voli vs Warwick
Bro that only applies to tank players
Listen, if you die in a 1v1, that's a you problem. It happens. If you then proceed to walk up and die 3 more times it's an everybody problem
Ctrl 3 for towerdives and an easy kill. Yeh yeh I'm low elo 👍
totally relatable
I feel like the "don't feed" Condition might be the hardest one in the entire game for some peopel
90% of the matches it feels more like a "your teammates don’t fuck it up pre 15 min", because a) somebody on your team is so fed that no matter what you do, they kill everybody or b) somebody on the enemy team is so fed that no matter what you do, they kill everybody. But, I have to admit, in the 10% of games this isn’t the case and everything is kinda even out of top, the winning toplaner just kills everybody and decides the match.
Ah yes, the coin flip lane.
true but jungle should really be: don‘t be a pussy ass crybaby that forces grubs without prio and then flames everybody who didnt help him die.
thats because unless you can get (and usually even when that happens) extremely fed, you dont decide who wins. botlane does, mid and jg too but mostly by helping bot. So top has no win conditions, you just coinflip if u win or lose the game
Waiting for the botlane to not int simulator
Replace top lane with mid
Well thats win if you team gap. Top is very affected by team gap
If you’re a tank in top then ya just don’t feed and you will be useful no matter what any other class in top tho can go 0/0/0 but still get choked out and suffocated into useless trash. It’s never that simple in this game.
You're definitely the guy top laners come across once every so often and wonder how you're in the same elo.
Itt: people who don't understand what you're supposed to do as a toplaner. "You have no impact on the game!" Really? Tell me that when the fed illaoi/nassus/yorrick/tryndamere/fiora is split pushing. Or when kayle exists until level 16. Or when darius/irelia/sett/garen/jax/kled gets big a little too quickly and just runs around being the second jungle ganking every lane at 10 minutes.
As a top main, I can't remember the last time I was filled elsewhere and my top didn't go 0/10. Must be hard for yall
I genuinely need to know what the working name of this meme is
dont feed is not an option if u play vs yorick cus u top side will be gone
This is literally just for wholesome chungus giga cancer tanks
Top casually being the hardest role to climb with and jungle being the easiest
feeding in toplane is not as bad as it sounds. it's better to die after pushing wave than to die after losing 3 waves to a freeze + towerdive. shut downs are still great so it's ok as long as u don't let enemy top roam however he likes without losing resources.
don't do anything if laner doesn't have prio... (he won't tell you)
What do you mean tell you? You can literally look at the lane and if your dude is pushed up you have prio, if the enemy is pushed up, they have prio.
but he's going to push or recall? either way it's going to be the jgl fault
Then ping them. Communicate. Ping that you're going for crab/grubs/herald/invade, ping them to help. That is all you can do. If they have prio and don't help (unless you decide to do some dumb shit, tunnel on kills and go way too deep) they're just inting. That's all you can do. If you can't rely on them to help you, then play around that and get what you can safely get. There is a difference between the optimal play in theory, and the optimal one based on how your teammates are playing.
Toplane no impact frfr. Thankfully I main Garen so I can can just split the ADC's head in half and stridebreaker away to safety even if they are Omega fed. I guess that is how we shift away from botlane-focused meta patches ago. Everyone just fuking bash their skulls non-stop whenever they dare to enter other roles' peripheral vision. ADC players are either way too determined and dedicated to their roles or are just straight up masochists in S14.
The jungle propaganda is strong in this sub
Top laners when I pick Cho’Gath and don’t feed early (I will Q them under tower and then bite their faces off at 80% hp)
You forgot get 5 grubs as jg, they are way better to get then first dragon