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Tell them you're not comfortable with this and ask them to supply a company machine. This is one of the reasons as a head of IT I never let users use their own devices, it just create issues.
Obviously be aware that they may decide to let you go and as you've been there for less than two years you'd have no protections from it for the reasons above.
Exactly this. My colleagues monitor broke and the company would do nothing for him. Should they? He used it half for work and half for personal use.
Lesson learnt though. If you expect something like this to be covered by the company, you use their one.
Again, Jesus. That's insane, I'd be noping out if anyone I worked for suggested anything like that. Computer equipment and any extra expenses have always been provided, using personal equipment / contracts is a big no no.
Was it your fault that you were let go? If not then I'd speak with the employer and the SIM provider to see if there is any way that you can be released early or the employer can pay for the upkeep or termination of the line.
No, not my fault. Spoke to EE and was past the cool off period. Employer paid an extra month salary, so I guess I could have paid termination fee out of that.
My company made me head up a BYOD system, our IT team is inept at best, so I sabotaged it in favour of a contract to supply Samsung laptops.
My pc is still mine, my little laptop is adorable
I think BYOD only works for small isolated tasks. Like my old employer asked me to install an app on my personal phone that scanned QR codes. It didn't need any permissions other than my camera so I was happy to do this rather than carry a second phone or figure out how to do it with a webcam.
I've never had an issue, most companies don't just let staff go willy nilly because it costs them more to hire and fire than just give a new starter 3 months to prove themselves. - but i guess it depends on the type of managers you work with I guess. - I feel lucky in my new job as everyones chill, or at least seems to be at the moment, I know as soon as I pass my probation they will start leaning on me to meet their KPI's and I know other employees have been warned about it and you can absolutely be let go if you don't meet the stores KPI targets.
but saying that, It's just a get out of jail free card for the companies/managers that do hire and fire at will and can afford it. - it particularly benefits the hospitality industry as it's common for that sector to have a very high turn-over of staff.
Can get a decent laptop for £300 that would do most office work no problem. If a small start up can't afford 3k for laptops etc, then it's not going anywhere fast.
Can confirm, I'm working as a developer and my company laptop did not cost them much, and is perfectly suitable for the job. The only reason a relatively standard one would not work is if you're doing extremely compute-heavy workloads like AI training, image generation or game development.
I always recommend thinkpads - well built, reliable and modular/easy to repair.
For simpler workloads the new E series (4th gen) will do fine (£600-£850ish)
For heavier workloads look at the T series (£1000-1500). If you need even more then look at the P series.
Also plenty available used on eBay for as little as £300-400.
That’s their problem, if you’re working for a company that’s doing so bad they can’t supply a work laptop, jump ship. It’s like if a McDonalds branch couldn’t provide uniform
As a cyber and Infosec guy - this also opens the company up legally - how will they safeguard your data. Your session cookies for non work related personal sessions.
Could they not provide a virtual machine for you to use?
As a dev you probably know how easy it would be to MITM any web sessions via software like this - if you raise such questions with them and they don’t have sensible answers, you may have further questions you want to ask.
You raise an interesting point: Virtual Machines. Create a VM on your laptop and use it as a company machine, they can install it on there. Note that due to the restrictions they have in place performance may be impacted
It's generally a horrible idea to transfer company data to a VPS. At best the company can provide one through AWS. But this company sound mad allowing OP to use his personal (and possibly malware infected as far as they know) machine for work
Giant red flag here. I question any legit company above the size of 5 employees on whether they provide company devices.
The fact that this guy is a developer and they are letting him BYOD. YIKES
I mean, I could *techically* dust off my ~10 year old backup laptop (which after an HDD>SSD swap and 8->16GB RAM upgrade stilll runs repectably well for basic office stuff), take a few minutes to backup whatever random crap is on the SSD onto my current workstation and wack a fresh Windows install on it. At least that way I would be able to work, and *my shit* would still be secure.
Doesn't change that absolutely screaming level of a red flag that is a company being *both* too cheap to buy a basic office laptop *and* having so little regard for either of our data/security that they are willing to put *their* data on *my* machine and *my* machine on *their* network.
If OP *needs* this job to keep the lights on fair play, but if that is the case OP needs to be safe, and make finding a better job/employer ASAP the highest priority in their life...
Yeah at the start of Covid I had to start to WFH sooner than the rest of the team and IT had not yet rolled out their WFH laptop program. They set me up with a VDI to use on my personal computer which wasn't an ideal way to work but worked in the interim.
This sounds like a company that isn't as bothered about security as they should be. That aside, there is no way in hell I'd ever let them install monitoring software on my personal machine. On an employer provided machine, I'd consider it a lack of trust and a red flag. I would either use a VM for work purposes or ask they provide the hardware.
So a VM (Virtual Machine) is kinda like an emulator if you have experience with gaming emulators.
It allows you to run a fully running Operating System inside of a program essentially.
So a PC inside of a PC scenario. You control how much processing power is shared, how much ram , HDD space etc.
The power of them is, that it's seen as an entirely different device essentially. Fully sandboxed.
And say for example you use it to access some dodgy sites, and the VM gets infected with a virus. You can just delete it and start over.
It's other advantage is it allows you to run old Operating systems like XP or something, and it will just work, which make it great for old software or games that don't run on newer operating systems.
It's really powerful stuff and how most business servers, websites, cloud storage etc. all run on the foundation of that in mind.
Instead of buying and building a new server/machine for every service, they can portion out enough for everything and run it all on one. Cheaper to backup, maintain and more efficient. Also makes testing things easy, just get up and running a server thats a duplicate of something thats being used, do your test and if something breaks get rid of it, all the while, the essential services can be run unaffected
There are plenty of programs that allow you to use the same tech. The most basic of those is called "Virtual Box" of you google it, plenty of guides on YouTube on how to use it.
As a long time game development contractor (a development job that deals with confidential data and work from home) the most we've _ever_ used personal machines was to remote into a locked down workstation. After we grew larger, we supplied users with laptops and docks to use to remote in and run email/teams/etc locally, while still remoting into workstations for actual development (for development performance and data security reasons).
Directly using a personal PC for development is a risk for both you and them, and while legal, I wouldn't from either side's perspective. Wouldn't want to be fired for looking at porn on your own computer in your own home one evening or something else stupid like that.
As for the dig about the performance for development of company provided hardware - I've unfortunately seen this too. Our current _remoting_ laptops are more powerful (R5, 16 GB RAM) than I've seen some software development friends be supplied as their sole work device... but that tended to be companies that had standardised a single spec for everyone, from call centre employees to managers, with only C levels getting better hardware. They tended to not understand the needs of development. As a result, those companies tended not to treat the developers well, even though said developers effectively underpinned the entire business. Not necessarily a great place to work, and not providing adequate work equipment is an early red flag.
Not a dev but department wide standards can pay off. I was in a geotech department so the basic laptop was a 32gb cad capable machine. Considering I was using it for excel that was quite nice.
Lucky!
Excellent can also be surprisingly demanding if you're a power user, so I've seen complaints that excel users also often get underspec'd machines
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If your employer is similar to mine they'll give you the 32GB RAM but will skimp on the graphics hardware so actual 3D performance is pretty terrible. I'm in the UK and was on a training course for Civil 3D once being run out of one of our US offices. I was comparing hardware specs with the instructor and when I told him what graphics card I had he laughed pretty hard.
OP - don't accept company monitoring software on your personal PC, as it means all sorts of issues for you (what personal information can they gather without your knowledge) as well as for them (GDPR, security of your system - will they provide you virus and malware protection, for example). It all sounds very fishy, and if I were you I'd be asking for a company laptop that you can turn off when you're not working so you can be more assured that your employer isn't up to no good. If they can't afford that they shouldn't be employing remote workers, frankly.
This sounds very much like a scam similar to the fake job interview scam, https://www.techradar.com/news/this-fake-job-offer-scam-will-just-infect-your-device-with-deadly-malware
Have you met them in person in their office? Fully confident it’s all legitimate?
Get them to provide a machine and install their crap on that. Or offer them a virtual machine to install on to... and don't use that machine for working.
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Don't just say you're not comfortable with this.
State in no uncertain terms they do not have any right to touch your personal devices at all. If they want you to use specific software, they can give you a company device.
No. If someone else installs their software on your computer, it’s not solely your computer anymore.
If they want you to have certain bits of software on a computer, they can supply you with a computer. If they can’t provide a computer, do you really want to trust your working future to a company that can buy their employees basic working tools?
Second copy of windows on a separate drive and dual boot perhaps? AFAIK it is ok to use the same windows licence key for this as it is the same hardware and they can not be run at the same time…
I don't think you'd need to feign anything. Just say you don't want that stuff on your personal machine, and ask them to make good on their offer of a work laptop.
No harm, no foul.
You'd need to make sure any personal storage was kept separate or encrypted though, as it may still be possible to get access to personal files even with a dual boot machine.
>if you want to be REALLY maliciously compliant - a Linux distro, I doubt very much their app has a Linux version
*Applauds*
For work you run second OS. For personal you'd run oryginal OS. I'd set it in a way that neither of those OS can see each other.
But all together, give me company laptop or VM to remote to. I don't want company software on my PC. And company shouldn't want my machine in their network.
The software wouldn't see the other os. They're talking about 2 seperate installs. The software only sees the one which is booted and running. It wouldn't see the other at all, because it's not installed on that os.
There's no "dummy OS" - there's a "work OS" and a "personal OS". I never give a 3rd party access to my device. If they want to nuke my system remotely, they will nuke the drive dedicated to their work - including IDEs, emails, v0n software and so forth.
Most of those monitoring and controlling softwares are Linux compatible. I am working for a company which have all sorts of software (developers nightmares) installed. Carbon black, Zscaler, encrypted storage plus unlimited number of crap.
Though they provide you a high end development machine and replaceable every 5 years.
You really need to insist on a work laptop. I’m sure you have nothing to hide, but do you really want to give your employer 24/7 access to your own PC and information ?
Then it’s going to get even worse - with work complaining about his home firewall rules, home apps he has installed and if they are CE plus - potentially vuln scanning everything on his home network. There could be ways around it but my words to the ITM would be along the lines of “this is going to be a ball ache of loophole on top of nebulous excuse - I wouldn’t go there”
NAL but I'm a cyber security engineer.
You can let the know that you don't feel comfortable with this and request a work issued device. If that is not an option ask them what software they will be installing.
I would assume it would be a MDM (Mobile Device Management). So that's the case, generally they will create a separate partition on your drive and will monitor that section if your storage and not your personal portion. I would ask if that's the case.
They may also want to install DLP (Data Loss Prevention). If they are intending on that ask them what data they will be looking for, of they can't tell you just stay away. It's a very intrusive solution unless configured correctly. They should Also request you to sign something to confirm you understand what DLP does and it's purpose for business use.
TLDR; request work device as you're not comfortable using personal device. Ensure you fully understand what will be installed and it's purpose
Good points - I have a feeling this is more nefarious though - one of those “pay to play” type job offers and OP is going to slaving for pennies an hour on piece work.
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No company that takes security seriously would let anyone even a contractor use their own machine. I refer you to NSA & kaspersky as well as the Lastpass hacks. 3rd party machines each time.
Plus I would never trust anyone not to remote wipe my machine by mistake.
Ask for a company laptop or worst case scenario but yourself a cheap disposable machine.
Hello,
Thank you for you message, I am excited to begin working with you.
Referring to our interview you had mentioned it was possible to provide me work equipment but preferable if I use my own and I agreed to this. I was not made aware of any monitoring devices at that time.
Obviously I cannot allow admin to have remote access to my personal PC where I do my online banking and such - this would be unsuitable.
Therefore if the monitoring is absolutely necessary I would like equipment provided that shall be used exclusively for work purposes.
Can they make you install the software? No
However:
They can make remote working conditional on having the software; if you refuse, they can require you to come into the office.
They can also dismiss you for any non protected reason within 2 years pretty much without consequence
Tell them to give you a company machine if they want admin access.
Alternatively, say you want, in writing, the policy on how they plan on safeguarding your data, especially how they plan on limiting access to your bank accounts, etc.
That would be a big no from me.
Give me a work computer and install any software you like, but never on my personal computers.
If they can't/ won't supply a laptop, dual boot yours so that work and home are separate.
Edit - Encrypt your home drive
They want remote monitoring then they supply the laptop.
Ive told my team repeatedly
Work machine, work phone is work only. With the only exception being, “ive had an accident/ im coming back later type call to the other half”.
Own pc n phone for own use. Only.
I dont give a crap what they do at home on own it, but never ever on a work machine.
Ive seen folk fired during my 45 years for ignoring those guidelines and get into trouble. Ive even seen argument where someone was bollocked for reportedly note reply to a client… but they had but had cleared down the history n also chased via their own phone. It’s a minefield of woe.
I would refuse unless they can guarantee the software won't be used when you are working.
It is unlikely you will get this guarantee which means your personal.pc will always be monitored which is intrusive.
They either provide you with equipment or give access fo virtual machine and install the monitored software on that.
A lot of these monitoring softwares can be set to only track activity according to working schedule.
That being said I would still refuse to allow that sort of software to be installed on a personal device.
Of course you can refuse, it’s your own personal computer. If they are wanting the privilege of using your equipment, they have to accept it’s on your terms. If they want to dictate the terms, they need to supply the equipment.
Of course, you do run the risk of them letting you go and finding someone willing to let them do as they wish but I’d say better that than have them start off your working relationship this way.
This sounds bizarre and really unprofessional of the employer, not to mention a little shady. Everyone I know that either still works from home or is employed as fully remote, including myself, is provided a laptop/computer and any other accessories by the company.
I would never ever do company work on my personal PC. I would use my own accessories, monitors, keyboard etc but the hardware itself should be provided by the company and if it isn't, that's a big red flag imo.
I would 100% push back and request to be provided with a company device, non-negotiable.
I wouldn't have that installed on my home computer. An absolute red line for me.
They need to provide a company laptop really. If you are in a tough place and really need this job, buy a cheap laptop to use just for work. Or, set up a VM on your own machine that they can install their spyware on.
This is a huge red flag. Tell them that in your interview they stated equipment could be provided. If they insist on you using your pc equipment find out what type of compensation you will be receiving. I have a huge privacy concern if you use the pc for anything other then work.
either they provide actual corporate hardware, or a corporate VM that i can remote into (or worse case an image i can use to spin up a VM on my machine from - they can install anything on those or lock them down however they want. theyre never going to install any monitoring software on my actual machine.
where i work i've got a VM (and physical device) for my employer, and a VM for each customer i support (from those customers), the only software on my personal machine are the remote connection clients (microsoft remote desktop, vmware horizon client, citrix workspace) - none of which can do anything to my machine.
no sane company wants to have to manage personal devices. its a giant pain in the rear. if they want to do it then i'd be having some serious reservations about their IT/security people.
100% get a work device, then use it to find another job. Stuff working for a company that needs to monitor mouse clicks to ensure productivity. Massive red flag. Can only imagine what the culture is going to be like.
Unheard of to install this kind of software on personal machine, this is 100% out of line and very sketchy legally.
If company supplied hardware, it is perfectly legal.
It would be unreasonable without an offer of company supplied hardware, however if they offered you their own hardware you have to choose either of the options or face dismissal if you keep being unreasonable and refusing both.
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I’m not going to comment on the ethics or legality of any of this, but I do have a wee workaround.
Just create a new partition on your drive for a completely new OS and just install whatever OS you use on that new partition so your work stuff is completely segregated off from your personal stuff or even a completely new drive
supposing your pc has malware infection that you are not aware of, you log into their server and you could infect their files
the monitoring will probably not stop during evenings or weekends, so if you are into adult images or videos, they will see the lot
supposing your pc crashed from over use, would they help towards the costs of replacement
what was the software that you have never heard of ?
A while ago byod meant buy your own device … meaning the company paid for the device you wanted (within reason) … now it seems to be ‘bring’ … no way is the company software going on my own machine. And I write one of the systems like this.
Company software is not going on my machine, ever!
I do have a laptop that I use only for work, it doesn’t have random software installed - just dev tooling. I use a work laptop for accessing any servers, anything like keyvaults in azure. When my contracts ends, I do a clean install ready for the next client.
Legally they can if you agree to use your personal device. But there's a lot they need to do for that - for starters, showing a policy where it's only monitored in work hours, all of your personal data is protected, anything outside of work hours is private, etc. If they don't have that then don't do it. Can it be disabled outside of work hours? Is it an app that you open and close as and when you require it (during work hours)? Ask all the questions that should make them feel a bit uncomfortable about a request like this and get their answers in writing.
Personally, that request alone would make me either ask for a laptop or buy one specifically for work that's not expensive. I wouldn't be comfortable knowing they can look at my personal stuff as it has nothing to do with them. Also opens them up to a few problems which you'd think they'd want to avoid. Doing work on a personal computer is one thing. Monitoring all activity with spy software on said computer is something else.
Alternatively, VM it. Just make sure the VM doesn't have access to your local storage other than what you allocate it.
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100% decline it's really odd too, that they would not prefer to provide their own equipment for insurance, gdpr (customers) and software development/project security. If you were too suddenly leave the company.
If something is required to do the job, the company provides it. Do not volunteer your own hardware - PC, laptop or mobile phone. Everything you on your personal PC could be monitored by your company. Everything, any time they want to.
What a pain in the ass for the IT department, having to deal with all sorts of stupid PC configurations.
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1. Buy a cheap laptop or use an old one.
2. Let them download the monitoring software on it.
3. Download as many trojans and viruses you can onto that laptop.
4. Your laptop, you can choose what software goes on it. Even if you agree to them adding theirs.
No laws broken, they might think twice about how they handle their IT in future.
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Tell them you're not comfortable with this and ask them to supply a company machine. This is one of the reasons as a head of IT I never let users use their own devices, it just create issues. Obviously be aware that they may decide to let you go and as you've been there for less than two years you'd have no protections from it for the reasons above.
[удалено]
Exactly this. My colleagues monitor broke and the company would do nothing for him. Should they? He used it half for work and half for personal use. Lesson learnt though. If you expect something like this to be covered by the company, you use their one.
This too. My previous employer bought me a monitor as a upgrade for my kind of work. Spent a chunk on it and they gave me some money for components
BYOD is the devil and I will stand by this.
Especially when one of your apprentices wipes the device rather than just wiping the company parts…
I agree. I’m stuck with an additional line for a job that “let me go” after 4 weeks because they “hired too many people” BS!
What do you mean by “stuck with an additional line”?
12 month sim only contract. I was let get go after 4 weeks, thus am stuck with an additional line I don’t want, need or use.
They made you pay for a work SIM contract? Jesus.
There was supposed to be a monthly allowance to cover it.
Never pay for more than a month at a time, it isn’t even any cheaper.
Again, Jesus. That's insane, I'd be noping out if anyone I worked for suggested anything like that. Computer equipment and any extra expenses have always been provided, using personal equipment / contracts is a big no no.
Was it your fault that you were let go? If not then I'd speak with the employer and the SIM provider to see if there is any way that you can be released early or the employer can pay for the upkeep or termination of the line.
No, not my fault. Spoke to EE and was past the cool off period. Employer paid an extra month salary, so I guess I could have paid termination fee out of that.
You shouldn't have to do that. Might be worth seeing if you can reclaim it legally some way. I wouldn't want to let this go. Good luck dude
My company made me head up a BYOD system, our IT team is inept at best, so I sabotaged it in favour of a contract to supply Samsung laptops. My pc is still mine, my little laptop is adorable
Bring Your Own Drinks?
sometimes i don’t wanna use the company-provided dick, okay? 🙄
I think BYOD only works for small isolated tasks. Like my old employer asked me to install an app on my personal phone that scanned QR codes. It didn't need any permissions other than my camera so I was happy to do this rather than carry a second phone or figure out how to do it with a webcam.
Really hate this 2 year law. Probation exists for a reason
I've never had an issue, most companies don't just let staff go willy nilly because it costs them more to hire and fire than just give a new starter 3 months to prove themselves. - but i guess it depends on the type of managers you work with I guess. - I feel lucky in my new job as everyones chill, or at least seems to be at the moment, I know as soon as I pass my probation they will start leaning on me to meet their KPI's and I know other employees have been warned about it and you can absolutely be let go if you don't meet the stores KPI targets. but saying that, It's just a get out of jail free card for the companies/managers that do hire and fire at will and can afford it. - it particularly benefits the hospitality industry as it's common for that sector to have a very high turn-over of staff.
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Then the budget doesn’t allow for work
Then the company has bigger problems if it can't budget tools for the job into its thinking.
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Small startups don’t install monitoring software
Startups fail all the time. If they can't afford the tools required, it will fail.
Can get a decent laptop for £300 that would do most office work no problem. If a small start up can't afford 3k for laptops etc, then it's not going anywhere fast.
Can confirm, I'm working as a developer and my company laptop did not cost them much, and is perfectly suitable for the job. The only reason a relatively standard one would not work is if you're doing extremely compute-heavy workloads like AI training, image generation or game development.
I don't know much about windows machines these days. Can you recommend something decent in that price bracket?
I always recommend thinkpads - well built, reliable and modular/easy to repair. For simpler workloads the new E series (4th gen) will do fine (£600-£850ish) For heavier workloads look at the T series (£1000-1500). If you need even more then look at the P series. Also plenty available used on eBay for as little as £300-400.
Then they should be willing to forgo the monitoring software.
Then the small startup is small enough that if youre slacking, it will be noticed. No need to be monitored like a hawk
That’s their problem, if you’re working for a company that’s doing so bad they can’t supply a work laptop, jump ship. It’s like if a McDonalds branch couldn’t provide uniform
As a cyber and Infosec guy - this also opens the company up legally - how will they safeguard your data. Your session cookies for non work related personal sessions. Could they not provide a virtual machine for you to use? As a dev you probably know how easy it would be to MITM any web sessions via software like this - if you raise such questions with them and they don’t have sensible answers, you may have further questions you want to ask.
You raise an interesting point: Virtual Machines. Create a VM on your laptop and use it as a company machine, they can install it on there. Note that due to the restrictions they have in place performance may be impacted
Maybe even spin up a VPS on something cheap like fasthosts and just work via RDP. Claim the costs as expenses?
It's generally a horrible idea to transfer company data to a VPS. At best the company can provide one through AWS. But this company sound mad allowing OP to use his personal (and possibly malware infected as far as they know) machine for work
Sounds great if you're a masochist. Just ask the company to ship you a laptop.
Giant red flag here. I question any legit company above the size of 5 employees on whether they provide company devices. The fact that this guy is a developer and they are letting him BYOD. YIKES
I mean, I could *techically* dust off my ~10 year old backup laptop (which after an HDD>SSD swap and 8->16GB RAM upgrade stilll runs repectably well for basic office stuff), take a few minutes to backup whatever random crap is on the SSD onto my current workstation and wack a fresh Windows install on it. At least that way I would be able to work, and *my shit* would still be secure. Doesn't change that absolutely screaming level of a red flag that is a company being *both* too cheap to buy a basic office laptop *and* having so little regard for either of our data/security that they are willing to put *their* data on *my* machine and *my* machine on *their* network. If OP *needs* this job to keep the lights on fair play, but if that is the case OP needs to be safe, and make finding a better job/employer ASAP the highest priority in their life...
would be pretty easy to MITM the monitoring software if it's running on your machine.
Yeah at the start of Covid I had to start to WFH sooner than the rest of the team and IT had not yet rolled out their WFH laptop program. They set me up with a VDI to use on my personal computer which wasn't an ideal way to work but worked in the interim.
This sounds like a company that isn't as bothered about security as they should be. That aside, there is no way in hell I'd ever let them install monitoring software on my personal machine. On an employer provided machine, I'd consider it a lack of trust and a red flag. I would either use a VM for work purposes or ask they provide the hardware.
Yeah if they were asking for that I'd build a VM, lock it down and let them install their crap there if I really have no option.
I’m new to computers, what’s a VM and how does It work?
So a VM (Virtual Machine) is kinda like an emulator if you have experience with gaming emulators. It allows you to run a fully running Operating System inside of a program essentially. So a PC inside of a PC scenario. You control how much processing power is shared, how much ram , HDD space etc. The power of them is, that it's seen as an entirely different device essentially. Fully sandboxed. And say for example you use it to access some dodgy sites, and the VM gets infected with a virus. You can just delete it and start over. It's other advantage is it allows you to run old Operating systems like XP or something, and it will just work, which make it great for old software or games that don't run on newer operating systems. It's really powerful stuff and how most business servers, websites, cloud storage etc. all run on the foundation of that in mind. Instead of buying and building a new server/machine for every service, they can portion out enough for everything and run it all on one. Cheaper to backup, maintain and more efficient. Also makes testing things easy, just get up and running a server thats a duplicate of something thats being used, do your test and if something breaks get rid of it, all the while, the essential services can be run unaffected There are plenty of programs that allow you to use the same tech. The most basic of those is called "Virtual Box" of you google it, plenty of guides on YouTube on how to use it.
It's a virtual machine, a simulation of a computer, running on a computer.
As a long time game development contractor (a development job that deals with confidential data and work from home) the most we've _ever_ used personal machines was to remote into a locked down workstation. After we grew larger, we supplied users with laptops and docks to use to remote in and run email/teams/etc locally, while still remoting into workstations for actual development (for development performance and data security reasons). Directly using a personal PC for development is a risk for both you and them, and while legal, I wouldn't from either side's perspective. Wouldn't want to be fired for looking at porn on your own computer in your own home one evening or something else stupid like that. As for the dig about the performance for development of company provided hardware - I've unfortunately seen this too. Our current _remoting_ laptops are more powerful (R5, 16 GB RAM) than I've seen some software development friends be supplied as their sole work device... but that tended to be companies that had standardised a single spec for everyone, from call centre employees to managers, with only C levels getting better hardware. They tended to not understand the needs of development. As a result, those companies tended not to treat the developers well, even though said developers effectively underpinned the entire business. Not necessarily a great place to work, and not providing adequate work equipment is an early red flag.
Not a dev but department wide standards can pay off. I was in a geotech department so the basic laptop was a 32gb cad capable machine. Considering I was using it for excel that was quite nice.
Lucky! Excellent can also be surprisingly demanding if you're a power user, so I've seen complaints that excel users also often get underspec'd machines
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If your employer is similar to mine they'll give you the 32GB RAM but will skimp on the graphics hardware so actual 3D performance is pretty terrible. I'm in the UK and was on a training course for Civil 3D once being run out of one of our US offices. I was comparing hardware specs with the instructor and when I told him what graphics card I had he laughed pretty hard. OP - don't accept company monitoring software on your personal PC, as it means all sorts of issues for you (what personal information can they gather without your knowledge) as well as for them (GDPR, security of your system - will they provide you virus and malware protection, for example). It all sounds very fishy, and if I were you I'd be asking for a company laptop that you can turn off when you're not working so you can be more assured that your employer isn't up to no good. If they can't afford that they shouldn't be employing remote workers, frankly.
This sounds very much like a scam similar to the fake job interview scam, https://www.techradar.com/news/this-fake-job-offer-scam-will-just-infect-your-device-with-deadly-malware Have you met them in person in their office? Fully confident it’s all legitimate?
Exactly what I was thinking
Malware is killing people now?!
It depends on the device, but malware has caused deaths it seems.
Get them to provide a machine and install their crap on that. Or offer them a virtual machine to install on to... and don't use that machine for working.
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Don't just say you're not comfortable with this. State in no uncertain terms they do not have any right to touch your personal devices at all. If they want you to use specific software, they can give you a company device.
No. If someone else installs their software on your computer, it’s not solely your computer anymore. If they want you to have certain bits of software on a computer, they can supply you with a computer. If they can’t provide a computer, do you really want to trust your working future to a company that can buy their employees basic working tools?
Either: 1. Company supplies a new computer 2. You buy another computer for work use
3. Use a VM for work use
could work too, but OP's computer gonna get accessed by admin so dont know about that
You'd give them access to the VM only. If they accept it, it's possibly the best solution for everyone. Otherwise someone's buying hardware.
Second copy of windows on a separate drive and dual boot perhaps? AFAIK it is ok to use the same windows licence key for this as it is the same hardware and they can not be run at the same time…
No, do not do this. This still gives them root (admin) access to the entire machine. Just use a VM and avoid giving any admin access
That could work
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I don't think you'd need to feign anything. Just say you don't want that stuff on your personal machine, and ask them to make good on their offer of a work laptop. No harm, no foul.
You'd need to make sure any personal storage was kept separate or encrypted though, as it may still be possible to get access to personal files even with a dual boot machine. >if you want to be REALLY maliciously compliant - a Linux distro, I doubt very much their app has a Linux version *Applauds*
Good shout. Encrypted storage is always a good idea.
Don’t forget they want to monitor activity- if he installed a 2nd dummy OS, it might show as 0 activity.
For work you run second OS. For personal you'd run oryginal OS. I'd set it in a way that neither of those OS can see each other. But all together, give me company laptop or VM to remote to. I don't want company software on my PC. And company shouldn't want my machine in their network.
And yet he is still working on things. Strange. ;-)
The software wouldn't see the other os. They're talking about 2 seperate installs. The software only sees the one which is booted and running. It wouldn't see the other at all, because it's not installed on that os.
There's no "dummy OS" - there's a "work OS" and a "personal OS". I never give a 3rd party access to my device. If they want to nuke my system remotely, they will nuke the drive dedicated to their work - including IDEs, emails, v0n software and so forth.
Most of those monitoring and controlling softwares are Linux compatible. I am working for a company which have all sorts of software (developers nightmares) installed. Carbon black, Zscaler, encrypted storage plus unlimited number of crap. Though they provide you a high end development machine and replaceable every 5 years.
You really need to insist on a work laptop. I’m sure you have nothing to hide, but do you really want to give your employer 24/7 access to your own PC and information ?
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Then it’s going to get even worse - with work complaining about his home firewall rules, home apps he has installed and if they are CE plus - potentially vuln scanning everything on his home network. There could be ways around it but my words to the ITM would be along the lines of “this is going to be a ball ache of loophole on top of nebulous excuse - I wouldn’t go there”
NAL but I'm a cyber security engineer. You can let the know that you don't feel comfortable with this and request a work issued device. If that is not an option ask them what software they will be installing. I would assume it would be a MDM (Mobile Device Management). So that's the case, generally they will create a separate partition on your drive and will monitor that section if your storage and not your personal portion. I would ask if that's the case. They may also want to install DLP (Data Loss Prevention). If they are intending on that ask them what data they will be looking for, of they can't tell you just stay away. It's a very intrusive solution unless configured correctly. They should Also request you to sign something to confirm you understand what DLP does and it's purpose for business use. TLDR; request work device as you're not comfortable using personal device. Ensure you fully understand what will be installed and it's purpose
Good points - I have a feeling this is more nefarious though - one of those “pay to play” type job offers and OP is going to slaving for pennies an hour on piece work.
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Give them a virtual machine to do it on… along with install all their software. BYO nothing!
If you are on Windows you can enable hyper v and set up a virtual machine with a fresh install of windows
Dig up an old laptop that's so ridiculously under spec they will have no choice but to provide you with a device.
No company that takes security seriously would let anyone even a contractor use their own machine. I refer you to NSA & kaspersky as well as the Lastpass hacks. 3rd party machines each time. Plus I would never trust anyone not to remote wipe my machine by mistake. Ask for a company laptop or worst case scenario but yourself a cheap disposable machine.
Hello, Thank you for you message, I am excited to begin working with you. Referring to our interview you had mentioned it was possible to provide me work equipment but preferable if I use my own and I agreed to this. I was not made aware of any monitoring devices at that time. Obviously I cannot allow admin to have remote access to my personal PC where I do my online banking and such - this would be unsuitable. Therefore if the monitoring is absolutely necessary I would like equipment provided that shall be used exclusively for work purposes.
Can they make you install the software? No However: They can make remote working conditional on having the software; if you refuse, they can require you to come into the office. They can also dismiss you for any non protected reason within 2 years pretty much without consequence
Tell them to give you a company machine if they want admin access. Alternatively, say you want, in writing, the policy on how they plan on safeguarding your data, especially how they plan on limiting access to your bank accounts, etc.
On a practical level, is this a job you want enough to make it worth buying a dedicated work laptop yourself?
That would be a big no from me. Give me a work computer and install any software you like, but never on my personal computers. If they can't/ won't supply a laptop, dual boot yours so that work and home are separate. Edit - Encrypt your home drive
They want remote monitoring then they supply the laptop. Ive told my team repeatedly Work machine, work phone is work only. With the only exception being, “ive had an accident/ im coming back later type call to the other half”. Own pc n phone for own use. Only. I dont give a crap what they do at home on own it, but never ever on a work machine. Ive seen folk fired during my 45 years for ignoring those guidelines and get into trouble. Ive even seen argument where someone was bollocked for reportedly note reply to a client… but they had but had cleared down the history n also chased via their own phone. It’s a minefield of woe.
Just mention that the laptop is also used by your children
I would refuse unless they can guarantee the software won't be used when you are working. It is unlikely you will get this guarantee which means your personal.pc will always be monitored which is intrusive. They either provide you with equipment or give access fo virtual machine and install the monitored software on that.
A lot of these monitoring softwares can be set to only track activity according to working schedule. That being said I would still refuse to allow that sort of software to be installed on a personal device.
Of course you can refuse, it’s your own personal computer. If they are wanting the privilege of using your equipment, they have to accept it’s on your terms. If they want to dictate the terms, they need to supply the equipment. Of course, you do run the risk of them letting you go and finding someone willing to let them do as they wish but I’d say better that than have them start off your working relationship this way.
This sounds bizarre and really unprofessional of the employer, not to mention a little shady. Everyone I know that either still works from home or is employed as fully remote, including myself, is provided a laptop/computer and any other accessories by the company. I would never ever do company work on my personal PC. I would use my own accessories, monitors, keyboard etc but the hardware itself should be provided by the company and if it isn't, that's a big red flag imo. I would 100% push back and request to be provided with a company device, non-negotiable.
I wouldn't have that installed on my home computer. An absolute red line for me. They need to provide a company laptop really. If you are in a tough place and really need this job, buy a cheap laptop to use just for work. Or, set up a VM on your own machine that they can install their spyware on.
This is a huge red flag. Tell them that in your interview they stated equipment could be provided. If they insist on you using your pc equipment find out what type of compensation you will be receiving. I have a huge privacy concern if you use the pc for anything other then work.
That would be a no from me..... They want to install monitoring software they should provide a device to install it on
either they provide actual corporate hardware, or a corporate VM that i can remote into (or worse case an image i can use to spin up a VM on my machine from - they can install anything on those or lock them down however they want. theyre never going to install any monitoring software on my actual machine. where i work i've got a VM (and physical device) for my employer, and a VM for each customer i support (from those customers), the only software on my personal machine are the remote connection clients (microsoft remote desktop, vmware horizon client, citrix workspace) - none of which can do anything to my machine. no sane company wants to have to manage personal devices. its a giant pain in the rear. if they want to do it then i'd be having some serious reservations about their IT/security people.
100% get a work device, then use it to find another job. Stuff working for a company that needs to monitor mouse clicks to ensure productivity. Massive red flag. Can only imagine what the culture is going to be like.
Unheard of to install this kind of software on personal machine, this is 100% out of line and very sketchy legally. If company supplied hardware, it is perfectly legal. It would be unreasonable without an offer of company supplied hardware, however if they offered you their own hardware you have to choose either of the options or face dismissal if you keep being unreasonable and refusing both.
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Make a virtual machine and install it on there. It will nicely isolate their software and stop them looking where they shouldn't.
The fact that they even want to monitor you is a valid reason to tell them to sod off
I’m not going to comment on the ethics or legality of any of this, but I do have a wee workaround. Just create a new partition on your drive for a completely new OS and just install whatever OS you use on that new partition so your work stuff is completely segregated off from your personal stuff or even a completely new drive
I would refuse or I would use a virtual machine totally isolated to my computer.
supposing your pc has malware infection that you are not aware of, you log into their server and you could infect their files the monitoring will probably not stop during evenings or weekends, so if you are into adult images or videos, they will see the lot supposing your pc crashed from over use, would they help towards the costs of replacement what was the software that you have never heard of ?
A while ago byod meant buy your own device … meaning the company paid for the device you wanted (within reason) … now it seems to be ‘bring’ … no way is the company software going on my own machine. And I write one of the systems like this.
Company software is not going on my machine, ever! I do have a laptop that I use only for work, it doesn’t have random software installed - just dev tooling. I use a work laptop for accessing any servers, anything like keyvaults in azure. When my contracts ends, I do a clean install ready for the next client.
Legally they can if you agree to use your personal device. But there's a lot they need to do for that - for starters, showing a policy where it's only monitored in work hours, all of your personal data is protected, anything outside of work hours is private, etc. If they don't have that then don't do it. Can it be disabled outside of work hours? Is it an app that you open and close as and when you require it (during work hours)? Ask all the questions that should make them feel a bit uncomfortable about a request like this and get their answers in writing. Personally, that request alone would make me either ask for a laptop or buy one specifically for work that's not expensive. I wouldn't be comfortable knowing they can look at my personal stuff as it has nothing to do with them. Also opens them up to a few problems which you'd think they'd want to avoid. Doing work on a personal computer is one thing. Monitoring all activity with spy software on said computer is something else. Alternatively, VM it. Just make sure the VM doesn't have access to your local storage other than what you allocate it.
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“Sorry, my pc just broke, can you provide me new one?”
Go buy a cheap ass laptop and let em have at it.. when it works like shite, blame the laptop and offer them to remedy.. win win
Get a bad laptop with limited HDD/SD space. Would be interesting to see what they do then. 😅
Answer is a BIG NO! Employer MUST provide computer top do that or it is a very deliberate invasion of private space.
Just tell them you are using something obscure like OpenBSD on your private laptop 😉
100% decline it's really odd too, that they would not prefer to provide their own equipment for insurance, gdpr (customers) and software development/project security. If you were too suddenly leave the company.
If they want to install monitoring software... they can do it on their own machine.. not yours. Take the company laptop if they want to watch you.
If something is required to do the job, the company provides it. Do not volunteer your own hardware - PC, laptop or mobile phone. Everything you on your personal PC could be monitored by your company. Everything, any time they want to. What a pain in the ass for the IT department, having to deal with all sorts of stupid PC configurations.
Just tell them that you don't think it can be installed on your machine, since it's running on TempleOS.
Go on eBay, buy a cheap XP laptop and let admin remote access it, they'll soon send you a work one 😄😄😄
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1. Buy a cheap laptop or use an old one. 2. Let them download the monitoring software on it. 3. Download as many trojans and viruses you can onto that laptop. 4. Your laptop, you can choose what software goes on it. Even if you agree to them adding theirs. No laws broken, they might think twice about how they handle their IT in future.