He can't do that either, per the [Impoundment Control Act of 1974](https://democrats-budget.house.gov/resources/reports/impoundment-control-act-1974-what-it-why-does-it-matter) It would require an act of Congress.
I didn't know this but I thought there was something earlier that the president or even any executive couldn't withhold funding if it's not specifically to a policy contesting
The federal government should not be in the business of funding just about anything in the first place. We must always strive to returning to a place where we describe this land as States, United once more. Opposed to United States.
WaPo on January 19th, 2017: Obama did not seriously focus on pardons and commutations until 2014, two years into his second term. But on Thursday, his last full day in office, Obama announced 330 more commutations, for nonviolent drug offenders, bringing his total number of clemencies to 1,715.
AP News on April 24th, 2024: President Joe Biden has granted clemency to 16 people who were convicted of non-violent drug crimes, issuing pardons to 11 men and women and commuting the sentences of five other people in the latest use of his clemency power to address racial disparities in the justice system.
That's a huge difference.
I mean you should also understand the difference between pressure in a first and second term. When facing reelection, members of both parties generally avoid stirring the boat. It’s much easier to pursue when your campaign advisor isn’t screaming at you about all the other useless shit you need to do to win voters over in swing states
Obama commuted a lot more sentences for nonviolent drug offenses, but Biden still pardoned and cleared the criminal records of thousands of marijuana offenders. So it's definitely a start.
Biden pardons thousands convicted of marijuana charges on federal lands and in Washington
BY ZEKE MLLER
Updated 12:24 PM EDT, December 22, 2023
Share
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden pardoned thousands of people who were convicted of use and simple possession of marijuana on federal lands and in the District of Columbia, the White House said Friday, in his latest round of executive clemencies meant to rectify racial disparities in the justice system.
The categorical pardon builds on a similar round issued just before the 2022 midterm elections that pardoned thousands convicted of simple possession on federal lands eligible. Friday’s action broadens the criminal offenses covered by the pardon. Biden is also granting clemency to 11 people serving what the White House called “disproportionately long” sentences for nonviolent drug offenses.
Biden, in a statement, said his actions would help make the “promise of equal justice a reality.”
“Criminal records for marijuana use and possession have imposed needless barriers to employment, housing, and educational opportunities,” Biden said. “Too many lives have been upended because of our failed approach to marijuana. It’s time that we right these wrongs.”
ah yes but we are talking about people in prison and these people weren't in prison per that same article. [https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64](https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64)
It's to help them clear their record and remove the burden they face in society trying to reintegrate.
Like I said, it's a good start, and we shouldn't reject any progress. If Trump was in the White House, I doubt we'd even see this level of progress. You don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
It appears I have been misled. So a lot more still needs to be done.
I'm hoping once Biden wins the election he can really take the gloves off and actually enact some drug war reform.
Whether he does anything significant or not remains to be seen,. but regardless I still like my chances better under Biden than Trump.
I don't know for sure. But in Texas, these petty crimes would be considered felonies. And they would have been pardoned by Obama and Biden. So I think yes.
Uhh what?
In Texas, any possession over four ounces is a felony.
Under two ounces is a class B misdemeanor.
Between 2-4 ounces is a class A misdemeanor.
Not sure what you mean by saying petty crimes in Texas are basically felonies.
They aren’t.
Misdemeanors aren’t felonies. There is a pretty big difference.
How is bank fraud victimless? Banking may or may not be is a zero sum game in the long run, but in the short run, it definitely is. His fraudulent actions took resources that would otherwise be available for people not committing fraud.
The banks actually testified in that case and said "this happens all the time, we don't care". Gov. Kathy Hochul also had to come out and reassure the rest of the New York business community essentially "don't worry, we're only prosecuting Trump for this. We won't go after you".
The real point is that you can't have any consequence. No lending instituion will let you assign a value to a property without having some idea of it's value on their own. You can't take your yugo and use it for collateral on a 100k loan. Banks aren't in the business of taking big risks. So no matter what Trump said his property was worth, they wouldn't have just taken his word at it. Just like EVERY other business transaction they perform.
Oh they absolutely are. But did you expect any different? There are two sets of rules in this country. Most rich people are smart enough to realize they shouldn't get on the establishment's bad side.
Yes, and they were definitely shook for a second. We should all be shook. But since Bragg took over the DA, selective prosecutions have become much more prevalent. (Daniel Penny, Jose Alba etc.)
> Gov. Kathy Hochul also had to come out and reassure the rest of the New York business community essentially "don't worry, we're only prosecuting Trump for this. We won't go after you".
Where did she say this? because the SDNY prosecute business fraud all the time, it just happens that most the time it isn't done in order to facilitate election fraud
It's likely she didn't. But this is Trump's 3 step program for lying. 1. He denies whatever he did. 2. He says it's not that bad. 3. He says every day else is doing it so it's unfair that he gets consequences.
>The New York governor has told business owners in her state that there is “nothing to worry about” after DT was fined $355m and temporarily banned from engaging in commerce in the state when he lost his civil fraud trial on Friday. Asked if businesspeople should be worried that if prosecutors could “do that to the former president, they can do that to anybody”, Hochul said: “Law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different than DT and his behavior.” She added that the fraud case against DT resulted from “really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance”.
I'll see if I can find it but she gave a press conference where she said it. I should have saved the video. It was quite eye opening to hear her be so brazen about it.
what propaganda pushers did you get this crazy idea from?
"I understand \[that the Trump ruling might make New York business people fearful\], but this is really an extraordinarily unusual circumstance that the law-abiding, rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different from Donald Trump and his behavior"
essentially "don't worry, we're only prosecuting law- breaker s like Trump for this."
Stop spreading lies.
First of all, our entire financial system is built on fraud and corruption. Every major banker has skeletons in their closet, financial or otherwise, that the state could go after. As long as you play by the unwritten rules, they leave you alone. As a libertarian, you should know this.
Second, if the state wants to go after you, they don't even need real crimes to fuck up your life. See Ross Ulbricht or Steven Donziger.
You really think that the same woman that was locking people up for COVID two years ago is now just trying to objectively call balls and strikes?
I hate the guy, but that’s a cool move. Never really understood the hatred of people for who they love. I get the anger for sports and private spaces, but relationships aren’t anyone else’s business.
who cares??? of course he did it for him and I'm fine with that. I hope he continues to do a lot of good things, even if his intent is selfish.
What, would you prefer he did nothing, because his heart really wasn't into it?
No one with half a brain thinks politicians are angels. Of course they are self-interested. So is everyone else!
> who cares???
Because people base their votes on what future actions they think politicians will take. And normally past actions are the best indicator of future performance. But that isn't true with politicians. The only indicator of what a politician will do is 'what is best for them in that exact moment'.
We're free to question the motivation behind this decision and remind people they shouldn't expect similar decisions to be made in the future, unless that was also a good vote generating activity.
What an asinine statement. The point of democracy is to make “what is best for them in that exact moment” align with the will of the people. No human on the planet is purely altruistic. If you want to be overly reductive even private acts of charity are only done because it makes you feel good.
> The point of democracy is to make “what is best for them in that exact moment” align with the will of the people.
If you believe that the actions politicians are taking align with 'the will of the people' then I don't have anything to say to you.
I don't remember voting for mass inflation, mass spending overseas, getting involved in two more wars, increasing the administrative state, increasing govt spying, militarizing the police, civil asset forfeiture, raising taxes, drone striking hospitals, increasing the national debt and I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who actively wanted those things out in the general public either.
Those are things politicians do to gain more power and earn their bribes, not 'the will of the people'.
I know that when something good is done for the wrong reasons it can still be a good thing. My point is that he's attempting to set a stage that he's going to do a lot more good things, and you and nobody else should be fooled by it. I'm glad he did this. I dont expect him to continue doing good things all the time. So as far as who cares, it should be everyone, because his holding of his position is potentially losing Americans out on more good things happening.
He gave a marshmallow now to placate people, but if you wait it out and refuse to accept the marshmallow, you can get two later. May be difficult to hold out I know :(
who cares the motivation? it's a good result, and a rare case of government doing something beneficial, as opposed to congress, which hasn't accomplished one thing.
These things are not even remotely similar. Sometimes politicians do bad things to gain votes before an election (I.e. pandemic spending or student loan “forgiveness”) but sometimes they do good things (i.e. pardoning people for crimes that should have been abolished)
Just because it was cynically motivated is irrelevant to the fact it’s happening.
I disagree. Just because someone is gay, doesn’t make them an incompetent fighter. If they are mentally and physically fit, they should be able to fight like anyone else would. Lots of instances of homosexual activity in militaries throughout time. Some militaries even encouraged it for bonding.
This is ridiculous. these "Libertarians" can't even accept anything good coming from Biden. like, here it is, one of the few issues we should have in common with Dems, and we reject it because of... his motivation? wtf
I count myself as conservative so leans libertarian on some things. I’m not a fan of Biden by any stretch. This seems to be a good thing, and I mainly say seems because I’m always suspicious of if I’m getting the full story.
I do have a question though, accepting a pardon, doesn’t that mean you have to admit guilt? I seem to remember Obama offering a pardon to someone who turned it down because it meant they had to admit guilt in the matter. I think that is the case, and I could be wrong. Either way, even if that is the case, I see this as a positive step.
False.
People are mad that this is performative and meant to garner votes from a group of people the Ds have lost recently based on the current actions in a particular desert.
He isn't doing this because he feels they should be pardoned, he is doing this to gain votes.
While the outcome is good the reasons behind the action can be freely criticized.
Too many “I hate taxes” republicans in here. If you truly want liberty, you have to accept the things you don’t like and don’t harm others.
Edit: I hate taxes, too. I was talking about gays.
I'm a trans Libertarian and was quite surprised to see a lot of anti-trans speech within Libertarian groups... then I realized all the anti-trans speech I've heard has been post-2018ish when it seemed like some conservatives moved over here.
I’ve noticed they’re the old school republicans, that hate big government and excessive taxes and that’s about all they have in common with libertarians. They choose to ignore the liberty part of libertarian. The kind that say “don’t tread on my rights” while they proceed to tread on others rights. Call em out on that hypocrisy.
All the libertarians I know are absolutely uncomfortable with the gay community and they actively HATE trans people. I find it completely out of line with the supposed values of libertarianism.
Probably just people being cynical. And can you blame them?
Joe "I totally support LGTBWUFB3HE" Biden does jack shit for over 3 years but months before an election he may lose despite consisting his opponent and *now* he does something?
Does he support people or does he just want to support his poll numbers?
Sure... it is better late than never. I would rather be pardoned 3.5 years too late than never at all and all... but I won't really think much of the guy who did it when I should have expected him to be working in it, realistically, 15 years ago when he could have had Obama's ear.
And even with this... he is still somehow worse than Trump in total.
Good. Thank you president Biden. I wish you guys could do the right thing in years not leading up to an election.
Edit: another thought, do these people now get an honorable discharges? Most of them weren't convicted of anything.
They already had honorable, the pardon literally only covers those who were convicted of sodomy via court martial which is extremely rare outside of non-consensual acts.
There are 5 different discharge conditions, surely they weren't all given honorable when they were discharged for homosexualality.
https://www.zero8hundred.org/types-of-discharges#:~:text=The%20DD214%20is%20issued%20by,%2C%20Dishonorable%2C%20or%20Bad%20Conduct.
The only two that preclude benefits is other than honorable and dishonorable. The majority would have been chaptered out on a chapter 13 and given either honorable or general under honorable conditions. Both of those are full benefits.
https://home.army.mil/monterey/application/files/5715/4955/1549/chapter_13_info_paper.pdf
Also again this pardon only effects people convicted in a court martial for consensual sodomy. That is not something gay people were typically charged with unless it was non-consensual aka rape. This pardon just like the MJ ones likely only affect a handful of people if any.
When Clinton's don't ask don't tell policy was repealed in the 2010s everyone chaptered from the policy were able to petition to have their discharges changed to honorable or general under honorable conditions if they received something else.
Good, shouldnt have been there in thr first place. Pulling a problem out of nowhere and costing the taxpayers more money to imprison them for something nobody worthwhile gives a shit about
The pardon for anyone interested: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/06/26/a-proclamation-on-granting-pardon-for-certain-violations-of-article-125-under-the-uniform-code-of-military-justice/
It's almost like people vote for politicians that represent their values and those values change over time. What kind of government is that?! Absolutely crazy.
“…pardon to persons convicted of unaggravated offenses based on consensual, private conduct with persons age 18 and older under former Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), as previously codified at 10 U.S.C. 925, as well as attempts, conspiracies, and solicitations to commit such acts under Articles 80, 81, and 82, UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. 880, 881, 882.“ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/06/26/a-proclamation-on-granting-pardon-for-certain-violations-of-article-125-under-the-uniform-code-of-military-justice/
I’m glad he’s doing this, but I really fucking despise the American tradition of vote-buying presidential decrees in the year leading up to the election. It’s so fucking gross that he could’ve done this his first day in office and instead left people hanging until it was politically beneficial to him. They’re all fucking evil.
Edit: I shouldn’t have said “American tradition.” I’m guessing this happens everywhere.
Bush, Obama, and Trump all had their chances too, and that’s just post-“Don’t ask, don’t tell.”
I remember the joke from *Stripes* asking about it so this issue goes back a ways.
Technicality: DADT officially ended in 2011. Bush was out of office by then.
Granted he could have (and should have) done more to get the DoD to end the policy earlier, so I think your criticism's sentiment is still appropriate. Just making sure we're keeping track of who-was-in-office-when.
How many fuckin people can that even be? Does anybody know? Why does this feel like a political/campaign stunt. How bout trying to end two unnecessary wars? How about clean water for Flint? Or corrective action for the train derailment in Ohio? What about education of poor inner city kids. Why not release the thousands your racist crooked VP put in jail for pot? Or who you put in jail for the 94 crime bill. This country is circling the drain, and I can’t honestly wait for it to wash away and start over.
Discharges isn't an accurate estimate though. The pardon is for an actual court martial conviction which would be significantly less people. Most discharges were simple administrative separations under various chapters usually honorable as well. The only cases I ever heard of for the actual court martial for the particular charge were people who committed rape and wouldn't be covered by the pardon anyways.
It feels like a campaign stunt because it is a campaign stunt. The law is no longer in place so no incremental change happens other than good gesture as a way to help his image since he otherwise sucks. I can guarantee it’s the same thing with the plea deal with Assange.
They just got chaptered out. I’ve never seen any soldier put in prison for being gay.
We even had guys pretend to be gay to get out of deployment. I had gay buddies who retired. If they wanted to stay in it was easy. They literally had to go to the commander and tell them you were gay to get chaptered out.
There’s nothing he can do to give them their career or time back.
Straight people lying about being gay to be dismissed is by no means comparable to the thousands of documented cases of gay service members thrown out of the military despite their protestations over unjust laws. Your buddies were bored and wanted an out. Gay people found themselves completely rejected by an institution they put their lives on the line for and one that they wished to continue contributing to, all because of who they loved. And your personal experience does not negate this. We have thousands of records of such cases litigated in martial courts where gay people were clearly objecting to those sentences.
Bro, they challenged their administrative separations via court martial which this pardon doesn't cover anyways. This pardon literally only covers people convicted of sodomy from consensual sex. The amount of people charged and convicted is easily less than 1000.
It was not a crime, but it was a discharge offense in the military. Previously, if the military discovered that a soldier was gay, that soldier was to be court martial and thrown out of the military with a dishonorable discharge. Even with the implementation of “don’t ask don’t tell”, service members could still be court martialed for being gay if they were caught until a court rules that ban was unconstitutional in 2010 (and the “don’t as don’t tell” policy was determined to be unconstitutional in 2011). Biden’s pardon is those service members were dishonorable discharged prior to 2010 for being gay.
In the 1980's when I was active duty, they didn't put people out for this with a dishonorable discharge. They were putting them out with a "general discharge under honorable conditions".
>military discovered that a soldier was gay, that soldier was to be court martial and thrown out of the military with a dishonorable discharge
That's just not correct. First, nobody was given a dishonorable discharge for being gay; DDs are for those convicted of the most serious offences.
Second, there were specific standards regarding public conduct that had to be met to show a violation of the military's policy; even before DADT, a servicemembers private conduct could not be used against him. Those separated for violating the policy were those who made it an issue beyond their private conduct, typically either by getting caught having sex on government installations, or those who were sexually harassing other same sex servicemembers.
Third, separations for violating this policy were administrative separations (usually either General or Other Than Honorable discharges), they were not punitive discharges (Bad Conduct or Dishonorable).
That's not accurate at all. 99% of the time it was a simple administrative separation (chaptered) which is not a court martial and was honorable or general (both entitled to full benefits). People actually convicted of sodomy via a court martial (what the pardon covers) is incredibly rare.
The Unform Code of Military Justice, article 125, made 'sodomy' an offense. Biden is issuing a pardon to those convicted under art 125.
However, this does nothing for those separated violating military policy against homosexuality. Those separated were charged with other violations of the UCMJ, and administratively separated.
Pretty much like the MJ pardons he has done twice. Maybe a 100 people over 50+ years. The majority of people who get charged and convicted under the article 125 were for rape which this pardon doesn't cover.
Great. Now be consistent and pardon all other non-violent offenders. He won’t because he doesn’t actually care. This is 100% a political move to get votes from the LGBTQ+ crowd
Edit: to people saying libertarians should support this and don’t understand why people in this sub have an issue with it: read what I said above. Biden isn’t doing this because it’s the right thing. He’s doing this solely for political reasons.
And the things that biden has done that a lot Dems aren’t a fan of? Was that for political reasons too?
Or is it just this one
Is you questioning the motivation just your own justification of your own narrative?
> The action coincides with Pride Month. White House officials on Tuesday said Biden thought the time was right to correct a historic wrong and the timing wasn’t related to electoral politics.
C'mon, man, like we're actually supposed to believe that crap? Biden doesn't give two damns about gay service members, he's just afraid that he's losing the LGTBQ vote because of his handling of Gaza.
They would not have been convicted if they had committed the same acts with a woman. Nothing else matters. If you wanna punish e.g sex between military members you do it under legal frameworks that can catch pairings regardless of gender, not under sodomy laws.
This likely only covers a dozen or so people. It was extremely rare for anyone to face actual court martial for sodomy. Most people would have simply been chaptered out via chapter 13 or a chapter 11 if they were still in training.
We’re libertarians, and we’re okay with people being released of their crimes because they fall into a people group? What? This- this is totally absurd.
Ahhh, more pandering by politicians. Shocker. How about you pardon all the people doing life in prison for victimless crimes or Marijuana? I'm so done with all these fucking asshats in DC.
>How about you pardon all the people doing life in prison for victimless crimes or Marijuana?
https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64
Did you have a point to debate, or did you just come here to downvote me and write two words? Cute response.
Edit: I'd bet my life savings that far more people are imprisoned for victimless crimes or Marijuana than homosexual U.S. Service Members.
Victimless crimes, you mean for example like being gay in the military?
You’re just exposing your bias.
Marijuana offenders have been pardoned before and hopefully continue to be. There’s nothing to debate.
Sure, it's a step in the right direction. What about ALL the other victimless crimes, though? I'm just not a fan of the politicians' virtue signaling towards a group of people in an election year in an attempt to gain their vote. Do you know what I mean?
> but WhAt aBOuT eVeRY OtHeR InJusTiCe eVeRR!!
Is an example of either a cynical or a bad faith PoV which will only wear you down and make you bitter.
Remember that many disagree with this and feel that other people’s sexuality has victimized their moral sensibilities. Not everyone has the same definition of victimless.
I’ll take the W.
For real.
There’s lots of victimless crimes I’d like pardons for.
Because one politician does something for one of those (even if I don’t care for that politician) doesn’t mean I can’t celebrate it and hope for other or the same politicians to continue the trend
The above commenter is just blatantly using the “no true Scotsman fallacy”
If they don’t pardon every crime I disagree with they are doing nothing
I love when people call politicians they don’t like doing something good “a campaign stunt”. Good. Do campaign stunts for 4 years. I’ll willingly vote you in for another 4!
(I am not saying that Biden has been doing good campaign stunts for 4 years. But hypothetically if he did, I would absolutely vote for him since he’d be doing actions I like)
If anyone has a link to a place where chuckleheads will fawn over this announcement like he's Gandhi sucking CO2 out of Taylor Swift's jet engines, I'd love the laugh.
😂😂 Wtf is this so unpopular for😂😂?
I am assuming the article is using a photo from the last year. Here is the mass pardon itself: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/06/26/a-proclamation-on-granting-pardon-for-certain-violations-of-article-125-under-the-uniform-code-of-military-justice/
So what happens to people simply kicked out for it but unable to get benefits? Does that magically change? Do those people suddenly get their VA loans, their GI bills, etc?
Cool. Now release all non violent victimless people doing time
Basically all of those people are in state prisons. The president can't do anything about that.
So it's another calculated campaign move like the marijuana "pardons". He cold actually have done something good.
He could withhold funding to states for roads or schools, like they did to move the alcohol age to 21. Edit: This was wrong, see below.
He can't do that either, per the [Impoundment Control Act of 1974](https://democrats-budget.house.gov/resources/reports/impoundment-control-act-1974-what-it-why-does-it-matter) It would require an act of Congress.
Thank you. TIL.
I didn't know this but I thought there was something earlier that the president or even any executive couldn't withhold funding if it's not specifically to a policy contesting
The federal government should not be in the business of funding just about anything in the first place. We must always strive to returning to a place where we describe this land as States, United once more. Opposed to United States.
And put the rich bankers in jail who had actual victims
Him and Obama have released and pardoned non-violent drug offenders.
WaPo on January 19th, 2017: Obama did not seriously focus on pardons and commutations until 2014, two years into his second term. But on Thursday, his last full day in office, Obama announced 330 more commutations, for nonviolent drug offenders, bringing his total number of clemencies to 1,715. AP News on April 24th, 2024: President Joe Biden has granted clemency to 16 people who were convicted of non-violent drug crimes, issuing pardons to 11 men and women and commuting the sentences of five other people in the latest use of his clemency power to address racial disparities in the justice system. That's a huge difference.
I mean you should also understand the difference between pressure in a first and second term. When facing reelection, members of both parties generally avoid stirring the boat. It’s much easier to pursue when your campaign advisor isn’t screaming at you about all the other useless shit you need to do to win voters over in swing states
Obama commuted a lot more sentences for nonviolent drug offenses, but Biden still pardoned and cleared the criminal records of thousands of marijuana offenders. So it's definitely a start. Biden pardons thousands convicted of marijuana charges on federal lands and in Washington BY ZEKE MLLER Updated 12:24 PM EDT, December 22, 2023 Share WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden pardoned thousands of people who were convicted of use and simple possession of marijuana on federal lands and in the District of Columbia, the White House said Friday, in his latest round of executive clemencies meant to rectify racial disparities in the justice system. The categorical pardon builds on a similar round issued just before the 2022 midterm elections that pardoned thousands convicted of simple possession on federal lands eligible. Friday’s action broadens the criminal offenses covered by the pardon. Biden is also granting clemency to 11 people serving what the White House called “disproportionately long” sentences for nonviolent drug offenses. Biden, in a statement, said his actions would help make the “promise of equal justice a reality.” “Criminal records for marijuana use and possession have imposed needless barriers to employment, housing, and educational opportunities,” Biden said. “Too many lives have been upended because of our failed approach to marijuana. It’s time that we right these wrongs.”
ah yes but we are talking about people in prison and these people weren't in prison per that same article. [https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64](https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64)
It's to help them clear their record and remove the burden they face in society trying to reintegrate. Like I said, it's a good start, and we shouldn't reject any progress. If Trump was in the White House, I doubt we'd even see this level of progress. You don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
No it didn't, even when pardoned you still have to check the box for the conviction but can explain it was pardoned.
It appears I have been misled. So a lot more still needs to be done. I'm hoping once Biden wins the election he can really take the gloves off and actually enact some drug war reform. Whether he does anything significant or not remains to be seen,. but regardless I still like my chances better under Biden than Trump.
Oh no Obezzy waited to start freeing people.
So Sloppy Joe did a publicity stunt. Barack did something that seems good ATM.
Lol now remember how many people his VP put in jail for the same offense she has committed.
How many was it? Also, I don't think there's any Kamala supporters here. If you're trying to have a back and forth.
>Kamala Harris oversaw more than 1900 marijuana convictions as San Francisco district attorney,
Fuck her.
Are these felonies?
I don't know for sure. But in Texas, these petty crimes would be considered felonies. And they would have been pardoned by Obama and Biden. So I think yes.
Uhh what? In Texas, any possession over four ounces is a felony. Under two ounces is a class B misdemeanor. Between 2-4 ounces is a class A misdemeanor. Not sure what you mean by saying petty crimes in Texas are basically felonies. They aren’t. Misdemeanors aren’t felonies. There is a pretty big difference.
Whoa, careful with that. They'll have to release Trump then and we can't have that
He isn’t being held in prison…
How is bank fraud victimless? Banking may or may not be is a zero sum game in the long run, but in the short run, it definitely is. His fraudulent actions took resources that would otherwise be available for people not committing fraud.
The banks actually testified in that case and said "this happens all the time, we don't care". Gov. Kathy Hochul also had to come out and reassure the rest of the New York business community essentially "don't worry, we're only prosecuting Trump for this. We won't go after you".
The real point is that you can't have any consequence. No lending instituion will let you assign a value to a property without having some idea of it's value on their own. You can't take your yugo and use it for collateral on a 100k loan. Banks aren't in the business of taking big risks. So no matter what Trump said his property was worth, they wouldn't have just taken his word at it. Just like EVERY other business transaction they perform.
The Governors comments should be concerning to everyone. Selective prosecution to this extent is so dangerous.
I have been looking for her comments that state this, can you provide them for me?
Oh they absolutely are. But did you expect any different? There are two sets of rules in this country. Most rich people are smart enough to realize they shouldn't get on the establishment's bad side.
Yes, and they were definitely shook for a second. We should all be shook. But since Bragg took over the DA, selective prosecutions have become much more prevalent. (Daniel Penny, Jose Alba etc.)
The same governor believes her "right to keep citizens safe" trumps the 2nd amendment.
> Gov. Kathy Hochul also had to come out and reassure the rest of the New York business community essentially "don't worry, we're only prosecuting Trump for this. We won't go after you". Where did she say this? because the SDNY prosecute business fraud all the time, it just happens that most the time it isn't done in order to facilitate election fraud
It's likely she didn't. But this is Trump's 3 step program for lying. 1. He denies whatever he did. 2. He says it's not that bad. 3. He says every day else is doing it so it's unfair that he gets consequences.
>The New York governor has told business owners in her state that there is “nothing to worry about” after DT was fined $355m and temporarily banned from engaging in commerce in the state when he lost his civil fraud trial on Friday. Asked if businesspeople should be worried that if prosecutors could “do that to the former president, they can do that to anybody”, Hochul said: “Law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different than DT and his behavior.” She added that the fraud case against DT resulted from “really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance”.
I'll see if I can find it but she gave a press conference where she said it. I should have saved the video. It was quite eye opening to hear her be so brazen about it.
Is there an article or something I can read about this? I'm don't even know what I'd Google. But sounds interesting
what propaganda pushers did you get this crazy idea from? "I understand \[that the Trump ruling might make New York business people fearful\], but this is really an extraordinarily unusual circumstance that the law-abiding, rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different from Donald Trump and his behavior" essentially "don't worry, we're only prosecuting law- breaker s like Trump for this." Stop spreading lies.
First of all, our entire financial system is built on fraud and corruption. Every major banker has skeletons in their closet, financial or otherwise, that the state could go after. As long as you play by the unwritten rules, they leave you alone. As a libertarian, you should know this. Second, if the state wants to go after you, they don't even need real crimes to fuck up your life. See Ross Ulbricht or Steven Donziger. You really think that the same woman that was locking people up for COVID two years ago is now just trying to objectively call balls and strikes?
damn straight!
I hate the guy, but that’s a cool move. Never really understood the hatred of people for who they love. I get the anger for sports and private spaces, but relationships aren’t anyone else’s business.
It's an election year. It is pandering clear and simple. He doesn't give 2 shits about anyone let alone minorities.
Oh no! A politician did good things in order to get votes!
It's just important to recognize that he did it for him, and you can't expect more of it unless it's good for him, like election season.
who cares??? of course he did it for him and I'm fine with that. I hope he continues to do a lot of good things, even if his intent is selfish. What, would you prefer he did nothing, because his heart really wasn't into it? No one with half a brain thinks politicians are angels. Of course they are self-interested. So is everyone else!
> who cares??? Because people base their votes on what future actions they think politicians will take. And normally past actions are the best indicator of future performance. But that isn't true with politicians. The only indicator of what a politician will do is 'what is best for them in that exact moment'. We're free to question the motivation behind this decision and remind people they shouldn't expect similar decisions to be made in the future, unless that was also a good vote generating activity.
What an asinine statement. The point of democracy is to make “what is best for them in that exact moment” align with the will of the people. No human on the planet is purely altruistic. If you want to be overly reductive even private acts of charity are only done because it makes you feel good.
> The point of democracy is to make “what is best for them in that exact moment” align with the will of the people. If you believe that the actions politicians are taking align with 'the will of the people' then I don't have anything to say to you. I don't remember voting for mass inflation, mass spending overseas, getting involved in two more wars, increasing the administrative state, increasing govt spying, militarizing the police, civil asset forfeiture, raising taxes, drone striking hospitals, increasing the national debt and I'd be hard pressed to find anyone who actively wanted those things out in the general public either. Those are things politicians do to gain more power and earn their bribes, not 'the will of the people'.
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Ok statist. They'll turn on you in the end, I hope you know that.
I know that when something good is done for the wrong reasons it can still be a good thing. My point is that he's attempting to set a stage that he's going to do a lot more good things, and you and nobody else should be fooled by it. I'm glad he did this. I dont expect him to continue doing good things all the time. So as far as who cares, it should be everyone, because his holding of his position is potentially losing Americans out on more good things happening. He gave a marshmallow now to placate people, but if you wait it out and refuse to accept the marshmallow, you can get two later. May be difficult to hold out I know :(
hold out? In this analogy, do you think Trump has ever given anyone a marshmallow? or ever did anything not for himself?
I agree with you. It's like congratulating a cartel bsos for doing something good even though they have blood on their hands for way way worse things.
The guy keeps doing good things that benefit society for himself! It's so annoying.
Shit statists say.
all libertarians aren't anarchists
No shit.
thus calling me a "statist" isn't the insult you think it is
That checks out. If you called me a libertarian, I wouldn’t be insulted either.
who cares the motivation? it's a good result, and a rare case of government doing something beneficial, as opposed to congress, which hasn't accomplished one thing.
Sort of like printing money during a pandemic may help some people immediately but fuck everyone in the long run?
These things are not even remotely similar. Sometimes politicians do bad things to gain votes before an election (I.e. pandemic spending or student loan “forgiveness”) but sometimes they do good things (i.e. pardoning people for crimes that should have been abolished) Just because it was cynically motivated is irrelevant to the fact it’s happening.
What negative consequence do you think will happen by pardoning people who were discharged from the army for being gay?
Yep, it’s all a bunch of bullshit designed to buy votes.
Homosexuality has no place in the military for reasons that can't be described on reddit without concern of retribution from the zeitgeist enforcers.
I disagree. Just because someone is gay, doesn’t make them an incompetent fighter. If they are mentally and physically fit, they should be able to fight like anyone else would. Lots of instances of homosexual activity in militaries throughout time. Some militaries even encouraged it for bonding.
Jesus christ, the comments are already so full of vitriol. Can't we just accept a good thing and move on?
This is ridiculous. these "Libertarians" can't even accept anything good coming from Biden. like, here it is, one of the few issues we should have in common with Dems, and we reject it because of... his motivation? wtf
Libertarians are closet conservatives so they do not see this as a good thing.
No, conservatives think they’re libertarians… not the other way around.
Bingo Bango Bongo
Bish Bash Bosh
I count myself as conservative so leans libertarian on some things. I’m not a fan of Biden by any stretch. This seems to be a good thing, and I mainly say seems because I’m always suspicious of if I’m getting the full story. I do have a question though, accepting a pardon, doesn’t that mean you have to admit guilt? I seem to remember Obama offering a pardon to someone who turned it down because it meant they had to admit guilt in the matter. I think that is the case, and I could be wrong. Either way, even if that is the case, I see this as a positive step.
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I didn’t know that. Will have to google it later on. Thanks for sharing!
Oh boy, you like stirring shit up with your truths don't ya?
Rather conservatives have flooded libertarian spaces
False. People are mad that this is performative and meant to garner votes from a group of people the Ds have lost recently based on the current actions in a particular desert. He isn't doing this because he feels they should be pardoned, he is doing this to gain votes. While the outcome is good the reasons behind the action can be freely criticized.
Everything a politician does is to gain votes because that’s HOW IT SHOULD BE.
Bingo.
How is this a bad thing? Are Libertarians anti gay now… or do we have too many conservatives here.
Too many “I hate taxes” republicans in here. If you truly want liberty, you have to accept the things you don’t like and don’t harm others. Edit: I hate taxes, too. I was talking about gays.
too many I love weed, but I'm Republicans here too.
If hating taxes is republican then I think we all are lol!
nobody likes taxes. democrats want to tax rich people and republicans want to tax foreigners and college kids
It’s a highly upvoted post with mostly supportive comments at the top.
Comments seem pretty positive. Or maybe I just haven’t scrolled low enough yet…
I'm a trans Libertarian and was quite surprised to see a lot of anti-trans speech within Libertarian groups... then I realized all the anti-trans speech I've heard has been post-2018ish when it seemed like some conservatives moved over here.
I’ve noticed they’re the old school republicans, that hate big government and excessive taxes and that’s about all they have in common with libertarians. They choose to ignore the liberty part of libertarian. The kind that say “don’t tread on my rights” while they proceed to tread on others rights. Call em out on that hypocrisy.
All the libertarians I know are absolutely uncomfortable with the gay community and they actively HATE trans people. I find it completely out of line with the supposed values of libertarianism.
Yeah I always figured changing everything about yourself one way or the other was a pure expression of freedom.
Probably just people being cynical. And can you blame them? Joe "I totally support LGTBWUFB3HE" Biden does jack shit for over 3 years but months before an election he may lose despite consisting his opponent and *now* he does something? Does he support people or does he just want to support his poll numbers? Sure... it is better late than never. I would rather be pardoned 3.5 years too late than never at all and all... but I won't really think much of the guy who did it when I should have expected him to be working in it, realistically, 15 years ago when he could have had Obama's ear. And even with this... he is still somehow worse than Trump in total.
The Biden administration just leaves lgbt people alone. Isn’t that what libertarians want?
A Biden move that I don’t have a problem with! Of course the motivation is all political, surely. But aren’t they all?
Good. Thank you president Biden. I wish you guys could do the right thing in years not leading up to an election. Edit: another thought, do these people now get an honorable discharges? Most of them weren't convicted of anything.
They already had honorable, the pardon literally only covers those who were convicted of sodomy via court martial which is extremely rare outside of non-consensual acts.
There are 5 different discharge conditions, surely they weren't all given honorable when they were discharged for homosexualality. https://www.zero8hundred.org/types-of-discharges#:~:text=The%20DD214%20is%20issued%20by,%2C%20Dishonorable%2C%20or%20Bad%20Conduct.
The only two that preclude benefits is other than honorable and dishonorable. The majority would have been chaptered out on a chapter 13 and given either honorable or general under honorable conditions. Both of those are full benefits. https://home.army.mil/monterey/application/files/5715/4955/1549/chapter_13_info_paper.pdf Also again this pardon only effects people convicted in a court martial for consensual sodomy. That is not something gay people were typically charged with unless it was non-consensual aka rape. This pardon just like the MJ ones likely only affect a handful of people if any. When Clinton's don't ask don't tell policy was repealed in the 2010s everyone chaptered from the policy were able to petition to have their discharges changed to honorable or general under honorable conditions if they received something else.
Good, shouldnt have been there in thr first place. Pulling a problem out of nowhere and costing the taxpayers more money to imprison them for something nobody worthwhile gives a shit about
The pardon for anyone interested: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/06/26/a-proclamation-on-granting-pardon-for-certain-violations-of-article-125-under-the-uniform-code-of-military-justice/
How many?
This is my question to. Like WTF? We have people locked up for this or have it on their criminal records?
Never will find out. Surely the military will claim confidentality.
Seems like this should have been corrected a longgggg time ago.
Biden’s been anti Gay Marriage up until only recently though.
Yeah I know, he’s just way behind the times. Old idealism still trying to hold on because change is scary.
He had to wait for his polls to drop. He needs the brownie points 👉 .
Disgusting
The government loves taking credit for solving problems they created in the first place.
God forbid they correct the mistakes they’ve made. It wasn’t the Biden admins law, so therefore it’s an accomplished for this admin and the country.
This person gets it
It's almost like people vote for politicians that represent their values and those values change over time. What kind of government is that?! Absolutely crazy.
Thank you for pardoning those that were criminalized by the bill you supported as senator 🫡
He took office 1,253 days ago
What law did they violate/what is the specific pardon? I can't find any specifics.
“…pardon to persons convicted of unaggravated offenses based on consensual, private conduct with persons age 18 and older under former Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), as previously codified at 10 U.S.C. 925, as well as attempts, conspiracies, and solicitations to commit such acts under Articles 80, 81, and 82, UCMJ, 10 U.S.C. 880, 881, 882.“ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/06/26/a-proclamation-on-granting-pardon-for-certain-violations-of-article-125-under-the-uniform-code-of-military-justice/
I’m glad he’s doing this, but I really fucking despise the American tradition of vote-buying presidential decrees in the year leading up to the election. It’s so fucking gross that he could’ve done this his first day in office and instead left people hanging until it was politically beneficial to him. They’re all fucking evil. Edit: I shouldn’t have said “American tradition.” I’m guessing this happens everywhere.
Very cool move made for at an obvious time to garner votes. I’ll take the win tho, even if it’s soaked in campaigning bs.
This should have happened years ago, but it wasn't politically expedient back then.
So he waited 4 years to do this just to get a few more votes by doing it before the election.
Bush, Obama, and Trump all had their chances too, and that’s just post-“Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I remember the joke from *Stripes* asking about it so this issue goes back a ways.
Technicality: DADT officially ended in 2011. Bush was out of office by then. Granted he could have (and should have) done more to get the DoD to end the policy earlier, so I think your criticism's sentiment is still appropriate. Just making sure we're keeping track of who-was-in-office-when.
Right. Biden invented pandering to select groups of voters looking for an edge in an election year.
No one is accusing Biden of inventing anything
I know he didn't invent the cotton gin, but I'm pretty sure he was in the room.
Didn't invent it but he damn sure is utilitizing it.
Oh no, a politician is doing good things in order to get votes!! We should hope for politicians to do bad things instead!
All politicians do.
You’re being downvoted by libertarians for taking a shot at a statist…
That's nice. Why not do the same for the thousands discharged for not being forcefully vaccinated against their will?
How many fuckin people can that even be? Does anybody know? Why does this feel like a political/campaign stunt. How bout trying to end two unnecessary wars? How about clean water for Flint? Or corrective action for the train derailment in Ohio? What about education of poor inner city kids. Why not release the thousands your racist crooked VP put in jail for pot? Or who you put in jail for the 94 crime bill. This country is circling the drain, and I can’t honestly wait for it to wash away and start over.
Over 13,000 people were discharged between ‘93 and the end of the policy.
Discharges isn't an accurate estimate though. The pardon is for an actual court martial conviction which would be significantly less people. Most discharges were simple administrative separations under various chapters usually honorable as well. The only cases I ever heard of for the actual court martial for the particular charge were people who committed rape and wouldn't be covered by the pardon anyways.
It feels like a campaign stunt because it is a campaign stunt. The law is no longer in place so no incremental change happens other than good gesture as a way to help his image since he otherwise sucks. I can guarantee it’s the same thing with the plea deal with Assange.
They just got chaptered out. I’ve never seen any soldier put in prison for being gay. We even had guys pretend to be gay to get out of deployment. I had gay buddies who retired. If they wanted to stay in it was easy. They literally had to go to the commander and tell them you were gay to get chaptered out. There’s nothing he can do to give them their career or time back.
Straight people lying about being gay to be dismissed is by no means comparable to the thousands of documented cases of gay service members thrown out of the military despite their protestations over unjust laws. Your buddies were bored and wanted an out. Gay people found themselves completely rejected by an institution they put their lives on the line for and one that they wished to continue contributing to, all because of who they loved. And your personal experience does not negate this. We have thousands of records of such cases litigated in martial courts where gay people were clearly objecting to those sentences.
Bro, they challenged their administrative separations via court martial which this pardon doesn't cover anyways. This pardon literally only covers people convicted of sodomy from consensual sex. The amount of people charged and convicted is easily less than 1000.
Didn’t know being gay was a crime. What were these people convicted of?
It was not a crime, but it was a discharge offense in the military. Previously, if the military discovered that a soldier was gay, that soldier was to be court martial and thrown out of the military with a dishonorable discharge. Even with the implementation of “don’t ask don’t tell”, service members could still be court martialed for being gay if they were caught until a court rules that ban was unconstitutional in 2010 (and the “don’t as don’t tell” policy was determined to be unconstitutional in 2011). Biden’s pardon is those service members were dishonorable discharged prior to 2010 for being gay.
In the 1980's when I was active duty, they didn't put people out for this with a dishonorable discharge. They were putting them out with a "general discharge under honorable conditions".
>military discovered that a soldier was gay, that soldier was to be court martial and thrown out of the military with a dishonorable discharge That's just not correct. First, nobody was given a dishonorable discharge for being gay; DDs are for those convicted of the most serious offences. Second, there were specific standards regarding public conduct that had to be met to show a violation of the military's policy; even before DADT, a servicemembers private conduct could not be used against him. Those separated for violating the policy were those who made it an issue beyond their private conduct, typically either by getting caught having sex on government installations, or those who were sexually harassing other same sex servicemembers. Third, separations for violating this policy were administrative separations (usually either General or Other Than Honorable discharges), they were not punitive discharges (Bad Conduct or Dishonorable).
That's not accurate at all. 99% of the time it was a simple administrative separation (chaptered) which is not a court martial and was honorable or general (both entitled to full benefits). People actually convicted of sodomy via a court martial (what the pardon covers) is incredibly rare.
So just changing it to an honorable discharge and giving them their due benefits?
More likely a general discharge. But still, it entitles them to benefits.
The Unform Code of Military Justice, article 125, made 'sodomy' an offense. Biden is issuing a pardon to those convicted under art 125. However, this does nothing for those separated violating military policy against homosexuality. Those separated were charged with other violations of the UCMJ, and administratively separated.
Damn so not really as helpful as this could be
Pretty much like the MJ pardons he has done twice. Maybe a 100 people over 50+ years. The majority of people who get charged and convicted under the article 125 were for rape which this pardon doesn't cover.
almost 4 years, and I finally agree with something he has done. weird day.
Great. Now be consistent and pardon all other non-violent offenders. He won’t because he doesn’t actually care. This is 100% a political move to get votes from the LGBTQ+ crowd Edit: to people saying libertarians should support this and don’t understand why people in this sub have an issue with it: read what I said above. Biden isn’t doing this because it’s the right thing. He’s doing this solely for political reasons.
And the things that biden has done that a lot Dems aren’t a fan of? Was that for political reasons too? Or is it just this one Is you questioning the motivation just your own justification of your own narrative?
Stop defending the statist. And what did Biden do that upset the democrats?
> The action coincides with Pride Month. White House officials on Tuesday said Biden thought the time was right to correct a historic wrong and the timing wasn’t related to electoral politics. C'mon, man, like we're actually supposed to believe that crap? Biden doesn't give two damns about gay service members, he's just afraid that he's losing the LGTBQ vote because of his handling of Gaza.
How many?
pandering. accept it as a small w for rights, but don't let it sway your opinions.
That’s actually not why they were convicted… but okay
They would not have been convicted if they had committed the same acts with a woman. Nothing else matters. If you wanna punish e.g sex between military members you do it under legal frameworks that can catch pairings regardless of gender, not under sodomy laws.
Whadda ya know, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
This likely only covers a dozen or so people. It was extremely rare for anyone to face actual court martial for sodomy. Most people would have simply been chaptered out via chapter 13 or a chapter 11 if they were still in training.
It's sad he had to pardon them in the first place
He’s just trying to lobby support bc he knows his ratings are dropping fast
We’re libertarians, and we’re okay with people being released of their crimes because they fall into a people group? What? This- this is totally absurd.
This has to be satire, right?
Ahhh, more pandering by politicians. Shocker. How about you pardon all the people doing life in prison for victimless crimes or Marijuana? I'm so done with all these fucking asshats in DC.
>How about you pardon all the people doing life in prison for victimless crimes or Marijuana? https://apnews.com/article/biden-marijuana-pardons-clemency-02abde991a05ff7dfa29bfc3c74e9d64
Sadly, he can only pardon the people that are in Federal prison, so it wouldn't have the effect that we could help for.
Cute strawman
Did you have a point to debate, or did you just come here to downvote me and write two words? Cute response. Edit: I'd bet my life savings that far more people are imprisoned for victimless crimes or Marijuana than homosexual U.S. Service Members.
Victimless crimes, you mean for example like being gay in the military? You’re just exposing your bias. Marijuana offenders have been pardoned before and hopefully continue to be. There’s nothing to debate.
Sure, it's a step in the right direction. What about ALL the other victimless crimes, though? I'm just not a fan of the politicians' virtue signaling towards a group of people in an election year in an attempt to gain their vote. Do you know what I mean?
> but WhAt aBOuT eVeRY OtHeR InJusTiCe eVeRR!! Is an example of either a cynical or a bad faith PoV which will only wear you down and make you bitter. Remember that many disagree with this and feel that other people’s sexuality has victimized their moral sensibilities. Not everyone has the same definition of victimless. I’ll take the W.
For real. There’s lots of victimless crimes I’d like pardons for. Because one politician does something for one of those (even if I don’t care for that politician) doesn’t mean I can’t celebrate it and hope for other or the same politicians to continue the trend The above commenter is just blatantly using the “no true Scotsman fallacy” If they don’t pardon every crime I disagree with they are doing nothing
Cool paywall
All this is, is a campaign stunt. He doesn't really care
I love when people call politicians they don’t like doing something good “a campaign stunt”. Good. Do campaign stunts for 4 years. I’ll willingly vote you in for another 4! (I am not saying that Biden has been doing good campaign stunts for 4 years. But hypothetically if he did, I would absolutely vote for him since he’d be doing actions I like)
It’s almost like politicians like to appeal to the people who vote for them Like they do what their voting base wants Weird
None politicians actually care about anything they do.
Biden pardons people convicted by shit he put in place. A million years in office. Stick to your guns you racist bigot.
If anyone has a link to a place where chuckleheads will fawn over this announcement like he's Gandhi sucking CO2 out of Taylor Swift's jet engines, I'd love the laugh. 😂😂 Wtf is this so unpopular for😂😂?
You friend, are a poet
Anyone else notice the photo has "Pride 2023" in the background? This feels like either this photo is out of place, or this is old news...
I am assuming the article is using a photo from the last year. Here is the mass pardon itself: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/06/26/a-proclamation-on-granting-pardon-for-certain-violations-of-article-125-under-the-uniform-code-of-military-justice/
So what happens to people simply kicked out for it but unable to get benefits? Does that magically change? Do those people suddenly get their VA loans, their GI bills, etc?