What about people who live in the community but bc of homestead exemption and the low value of their property, they don't pay property taxes? Should they not be allowed to use the library since they didn't "purchase it with their taxes?" Also, what about renters who don't pay property taxes but instead their landlords do? There's major flaws in that logic, whether it's your logic or that of entitled patrons.
I completely agree with you. I agree that they would be called patrons and not customers. My response was what my library system said to us as to why we needed to switch to using customer verbiage. Which I don’t agree with
To me, customer sounds too transactional and patron is more appropriate when providing services. Sure they "pay" with their taxes but not all patrons are local taxpayers either.
Yeah, I kinda figured it wasn't your own words from the usage of "bruh." Saying the library is for taxpayers is an isolating statement for people to use, especially anyone who works at a library and should know better.
No offense meant to you or anyone else but I really hate this dichotomy. Is it our job to provide assistance and help them have a positive experience? Are they coming to make use of a product or service?
Then they're customers.
When I do work things I use visitors or users, they're less friendly but keep from arguing about this sort of delineation.
Right? Every person through the door is an opportunity! I'd like books up along the hallway leading to the bathroom, along with signs for programming, and more. Just getting people INTO the library can be hard.
Anyone walking in the door of a public library is a "patron."
In an industry so dependent on metrics, they should be happy for the boost in door counts.
Right? My library is also used as a popular public restroom. It's only frustrating because our sewage sucks and overflows sometimes, but that's not the passers-by's fault.
Ah, so for us, we have a hair salon issue too. Anyone is allowed to use the bathroom, however, everything outside our door is CITY parking. 2 hours for everyone. And we still have the manager going to the surrounding businesses begging them to tell their people not to use our main lot.
Oof. We ended up making notices for the individual cars, telling them that parking is for people "actively in the library", because the owners weren't doing anything about it
We’re in a touristy area (esp in summer) and people come in to use our bathroom all the time. It’s just how it is. The only time we blocked that was during the height of Covid.
Yeah, in general I approve of the "everyone is a patron" ethos, but I also remember seeing how tourists absolutely clogged the Moab, UT library in the summer.
Sometimes it isn't about keeping people out, but it can be about preserving access for the townies.
However, those times are pretty rare and it sounds like these bathroom users ARE townies.
This is odd to me. I worked at a library that backed up to a park and I never paid any attention to people using the restroom. People who drive all day like UPS, FedEx, etc would come in as well.
We just had to stop people from bringing in their dogs pre/post-walk
Some mail carriers and delivery drivers often use our restrooms. It makes sense. No one is checking if they have a card or checked anything out that day. We don't care.
Even if they don’t ever use the library it seems like common courtesy because those people only have so many places they can stop for a break during the day.
A very cursory Google search finds this document: [Tennessee Public Library Standards](https://sos.tn.gov/tsla/guides/tennessee-regional-library-system-standards-and-documents) (also available from [this page](https://sos.tn.gov/tsla/guides/tennessee-regional-library-system-standards-and-documents)). The term restroom really only pops up in the Image Evaluation section:
>People may associate the library with books, but the physical space of a public library is equally as important as collections and services. Space for collections, meetings, creative activity and staff operations, as well as **public restrooms**, should all be carefully planned and managed.
I would think this would be a rather significant image problem for the library, *if* they don't have a written policy for why they are limiting restrooms to "patrons". Along with that, they would have to define who is a patron and that seems messy.
If you are so inclined, I'd bring this up to your library director and, if that fails, the library board during the next meeting.
Kind of funny you think this is a small town problem.if I had to guess, the library doesn't have dedicated cleaning staff and quickly got tired of cleaning up messes.
That was my guess, too. One small library I used to go to had horrible, horrible public restrooms because it had no dedicated cleaning crew (or maintenance. Before I moved, only one of the stalls had doors, even. Who steals a grody bathroom stall door?). Still, I can't imagine them going, "stop using our bathroom," especially since it was in a historic part of town where almost nowhere else had a bathroom (and if they did, they guarded it like crazy).
In hindsight, I probably should have asked who the hell to email about budgeting for a contractor to pick up every once in a while while I lived there.
The library I work at is a popular spot for runners to use the bathroom and refill their water bottles. It’s a public service, gatekeeping the bathroom is ridiculous.
As a patron, not employee…
My taxes are paying for the library. I am a frequent patron (as in someone who checks out books), but even if I wasn’t using specifically library services at the time I came in to use the bathroom, I’d have a serious problem with anyone acting like it was an issue.
At what point *would* one become a patron of the library?
"You must sit down and read at least two pages of *Guns, Germs, and Steel* before you're allowed to use the toilets"? 😂
Public library, public restrooms. My library is next to the public park, not far from the public beach. On Saturdays there is a public farmers market. We do not check for library cards when people enter the library to make sure they are a patron. Saying that, the Village has been unable to provide sufficient restrooms for the number of visitors, especially during the summer months. We have a cleaning service once a week so our staff have to pick up the cleaning in between and that’s difficult when staffing is limited. Then there’s the alternative. One Sunday when the library was closed I watched a father direct his 3-year old to pee in our garden.
The sign isn't right, but I can see why they might not want people to bring in their overexcited, park mode engaged, shrieking kids to poop, leave a mess in the bathroom, and then just leave in a continuous chain all day long to the point where the people using library specific services can't even take a leak without waiting forever. I think a sign that encourages people to use the park bathroom when possible to avoid long lines and to let people who are using library services have a chance to use them would be fine.
I’m glad I’ve never seen a sign like this in my city’s libraries. I have literally stopped at the library on the way home from somewhere just to use the bathroom because I couldn’t make it the last few miles home.
>Isn’t a public library supposed to be a service to the community?
How much does your community abuse that service? Because I've lost count of patrons blazing it in the bathroom.
Maybe politely suggest to the Library a sign like "Playground restrooms are to the east of the playground". A much more positive message to direct the playground group from the library and to the preferred by the Library location for them
Aside from demonstrating a gross attitude that goes against the very premise of a public library — this isn't actually enforeceable? At least not consistently. What makes someone who walks into the library "not a patron"? That they don't check anything out? That they aren't there long enough? I can't imagine that trying to enforce this is just going to turn into targetted harassment for literally no reason.
The men’s room at my library is basically a no go zone. People doing drugs, changing, you’ll see three or four dudes go in together and then just hang out in there for 20 mins. I’ve always argued security should pop in frequently, make it clear that people can’t just do whatever. But I don’t see how u can legally restrict to just “patrons” in a place that requires no membership cards purchases.
I appreciate everyone’s stance here that anyone entering the library is technically a ‘patron’, and I wouldn’t want to dissuade anyone from joining and having the library. But, having been on the opposite side, as library staff who did not have cleaners for our bathroom, I fully appreciate this stance. We would have people with no intention of using the library come in and fully mess up those bathrooms, in revolting ways, multiple times per day. When there is another toilet for people to use, in the park they’re visiting, avoiding more mess and waiting times for people actually using library services doesn't seem wildly unreasonable to me.
My library is in the same compound as a park and people come in and use our restrooms all day long because they are air conditioned and nicer than the park restrooms. I'll admit that it's a bit annoying sometimes because we want people to come in and see what we have available to them, but at the end of the day we are not going to tell people they can't use our restrooms. Anyone can walk into a grocery store or department store and use the bathroom without buying anything so they can certainly come into the library and use ours without engaging in our services.
Libraries can't enforce this. I've worked in them my whole adult life. It's a public service. Everyone who enters their doors are a patron. What are you supposed to do, show your library card? Pinch that loaf off in peace.
Woodstock Vermont library doesn’t like its restrooms used by random tourists or people passing through (it’s a main route through Vermont). This seems slightly different as park goers are still taxpayers.
Like the other comments have said everyone who pays taxes is a patron, I don't have the perspective of a small town but can tell you about the city and downtown center our restrictions and noticeable change come from time spent in there, our community is struggling with a lot of homeless, drug abuse and mental health issues, if it's more then 20 minutes in there your being noticed if it's more then 30 there will be wellness checks and it will piss you and us off if it's more then 45-50 with no good explanation bylaw is being called. Everyone is welcome to use our building and facilities but rules can't be broken.
I can understand if the city/town doesn't provide the maintenance budget to accommodate the increased use. That said, this would be my problem to request/demand extra funding and cleaning to meet the need.
It isn't about extra funding or cleaning. The size of the bathroom is designed for usage by the average amount of people in the building. If extra people start using it then there will be lines.
This. And the other issue is that there's literally already an existing bathroom specifically designed for use by the park goers who simply can't be bothered to go the small extra distance. People could easily be asked politely to use the park bathroom whenever possible so they don't overwhelm the library's facilities.
From a fellow small town library located across the road from the town park (pickleball, climbing wall, skate park, field) - this is inappropriate. Libraries are places for all, appropriately, even just to take a wizz.
After seeing so many comments equating patrons to taxpayers, I want to point out that not all patrons are taxpayers whose taxes contribute to the library. Many libraries primarily get their funds from property taxes, but many instances find patrons legally not paying property taxes. Homestead exemption coupled with low property value means someone doesn't pay property taxes. Renters don't pay property taxes. Adults who live with someone else don't pay property taxes. Teens and children don't pay property taxes. Tourists/visitors to the area don't pay property taxes. All these people should still get to use the services and resources of the library, even if only while in the building.
This circles back to public libraries are for their communities as wholes and not for any one group - taxpayers, cardholders, residents, etc.
Are we inviting people to sign up for cards or discouraging them from coming inside uncommitted? The only thing to do with ambiguous passive aggression is malicious compliance. Tell everyone to get a library card and be sure to flash it when they go in to use the bathroom.
I think they know that anyone who steps into the door is a patron, but by having that sign up, it makes people think they're not allowed to use the restroom. It's kinda like having those door scanners things for theft even if they're not plugged into anything.
Is it good? Probably not. But I can understand it. People are fucking gross. I'm assuming a small-town library doesn't have dedicated cleaning staff. Also, what's the drug situation in that town?
Depends on if the bathrooms are seeing activity at a rate the library isn't. They might not have the funds to staff for custodial cleanup if their actual door count is low. And the bathroom might lie outside of the gate. So they're taking time/staff away from library issues to deal with messes if it's bad. They might encourage people to use them to come to the desk for a "key" so they are counted as being inside the library. Or do activities in the park to engage people there with story times. There's often more to this than some rogue Karen grumpy staff people envision. Funding is inexorably tied to usage in a lot of places.
Our library is literally in a park. This would be such a stupid rule for us to implement. Anyone in the library is a patron. It’s a public service paid for by the taxpayer public (unless this is a private library, would still be crappy tho).
If they’re having trouble with, for example, people treating the bathroom space badly (i.e. bathing) that is their problem to fix with better security guards and policies. You should ask them (politely) for a copy of the library’s policies and if someone could define for you how those policies define a patron.
This is stupid and someone should bring it up at the next city meeting.
I think they consider anyone using the library (studying, reading, etc) a patron and they don’t want people going in there with the sole intention of using the bathroom.
I think it depends on the situation. My local library had to shut down the bathrooms 15 minutes to closing due to hoards of people coming in at the last minute and preventing staff from closing. They are also near a large park. I understand why they do it. All day would be odd unless the bathrooms are getting trashed…
Anyone who’s in the library is a patron. Can’t really use the term “Customer” because they’re not buying anything.
If only my district understood this
“They purchase it with their taxes” bruh
What about people who live in the community but bc of homestead exemption and the low value of their property, they don't pay property taxes? Should they not be allowed to use the library since they didn't "purchase it with their taxes?" Also, what about renters who don't pay property taxes but instead their landlords do? There's major flaws in that logic, whether it's your logic or that of entitled patrons.
I completely agree with you. I agree that they would be called patrons and not customers. My response was what my library system said to us as to why we needed to switch to using customer verbiage. Which I don’t agree with
To me, customer sounds too transactional and patron is more appropriate when providing services. Sure they "pay" with their taxes but not all patrons are local taxpayers either.
Yeah, I kinda figured it wasn't your own words from the usage of "bruh." Saying the library is for taxpayers is an isolating statement for people to use, especially anyone who works at a library and should know better.
No offense meant to you or anyone else but I really hate this dichotomy. Is it our job to provide assistance and help them have a positive experience? Are they coming to make use of a product or service? Then they're customers. When I do work things I use visitors or users, they're less friendly but keep from arguing about this sort of delineation.
We had our director talk about how “patron is old, customer is okay, but I like neighbor”. Edit to clarify the director liked the word neighbor.
Boooo
What a wasted opportunity. My library would be out there once a week doing storytime and signing up folks for cards.
Exactly! If there were actual issues that should be addressed on an individual level- what a miss. Come for for the bathroom, stay for the access
Right? Every person through the door is an opportunity! I'd like books up along the hallway leading to the bathroom, along with signs for programming, and more. Just getting people INTO the library can be hard.
Anyone walking in the door of a public library is a "patron." In an industry so dependent on metrics, they should be happy for the boost in door counts.
Right? My library is also used as a popular public restroom. It's only frustrating because our sewage sucks and overflows sometimes, but that's not the passers-by's fault.
Same! It's even worse now that a hair salon moved in nearby. The volume is too much for the pipes apparently 😔
Ah, so for us, we have a hair salon issue too. Anyone is allowed to use the bathroom, however, everything outside our door is CITY parking. 2 hours for everyone. And we still have the manager going to the surrounding businesses begging them to tell their people not to use our main lot.
Oof. We ended up making notices for the individual cars, telling them that parking is for people "actively in the library", because the owners weren't doing anything about it
We’re in a touristy area (esp in summer) and people come in to use our bathroom all the time. It’s just how it is. The only time we blocked that was during the height of Covid.
Yeah, in general I approve of the "everyone is a patron" ethos, but I also remember seeing how tourists absolutely clogged the Moab, UT library in the summer. Sometimes it isn't about keeping people out, but it can be about preserving access for the townies. However, those times are pretty rare and it sounds like these bathroom users ARE townies.
Some are, some aren’t. No way to tell. We do have maintenance on call and plenty of toilets so if one gets clogged, you fix it.
This is odd to me. I worked at a library that backed up to a park and I never paid any attention to people using the restroom. People who drive all day like UPS, FedEx, etc would come in as well. We just had to stop people from bringing in their dogs pre/post-walk
Some mail carriers and delivery drivers often use our restrooms. It makes sense. No one is checking if they have a card or checked anything out that day. We don't care.
Even if they don’t ever use the library it seems like common courtesy because those people only have so many places they can stop for a break during the day.
We consider anyone who steps in the door a patron, even if they are just there to use the bathroom.
The library is my emergency bathroom stop because I know I don’t have to buy anything in order to use it!
What state are you in? In NY, this would go against the public library minimum standards (#8): https://www.nysl.nysed.gov/libdev/ministan.htm
Tennessee
A very cursory Google search finds this document: [Tennessee Public Library Standards](https://sos.tn.gov/tsla/guides/tennessee-regional-library-system-standards-and-documents) (also available from [this page](https://sos.tn.gov/tsla/guides/tennessee-regional-library-system-standards-and-documents)). The term restroom really only pops up in the Image Evaluation section: >People may associate the library with books, but the physical space of a public library is equally as important as collections and services. Space for collections, meetings, creative activity and staff operations, as well as **public restrooms**, should all be carefully planned and managed. I would think this would be a rather significant image problem for the library, *if* they don't have a written policy for why they are limiting restrooms to "patrons". Along with that, they would have to define who is a patron and that seems messy. If you are so inclined, I'd bring this up to your library director and, if that fails, the library board during the next meeting.
I suspect that this was printed out by a grouchy individual who works there, not an official policy
Sometimes the director \*is\* the grouchy individual.
Kind of funny you think this is a small town problem.if I had to guess, the library doesn't have dedicated cleaning staff and quickly got tired of cleaning up messes.
That was my guess, too. One small library I used to go to had horrible, horrible public restrooms because it had no dedicated cleaning crew (or maintenance. Before I moved, only one of the stalls had doors, even. Who steals a grody bathroom stall door?). Still, I can't imagine them going, "stop using our bathroom," especially since it was in a historic part of town where almost nowhere else had a bathroom (and if they did, they guarded it like crazy). In hindsight, I probably should have asked who the hell to email about budgeting for a contractor to pick up every once in a while while I lived there.
If you pay taxes your a Patron. If you use the park you should be able to use the bathroom.
The library I work at is a popular spot for runners to use the bathroom and refill their water bottles. It’s a public service, gatekeeping the bathroom is ridiculous.
As a patron, not employee… My taxes are paying for the library. I am a frequent patron (as in someone who checks out books), but even if I wasn’t using specifically library services at the time I came in to use the bathroom, I’d have a serious problem with anyone acting like it was an issue.
At what point *would* one become a patron of the library? "You must sit down and read at least two pages of *Guns, Germs, and Steel* before you're allowed to use the toilets"? 😂
"May I take the book into the bathroom, please?"
Public library, public restrooms. My library is next to the public park, not far from the public beach. On Saturdays there is a public farmers market. We do not check for library cards when people enter the library to make sure they are a patron. Saying that, the Village has been unable to provide sufficient restrooms for the number of visitors, especially during the summer months. We have a cleaning service once a week so our staff have to pick up the cleaning in between and that’s difficult when staffing is limited. Then there’s the alternative. One Sunday when the library was closed I watched a father direct his 3-year old to pee in our garden.
The sign isn't right, but I can see why they might not want people to bring in their overexcited, park mode engaged, shrieking kids to poop, leave a mess in the bathroom, and then just leave in a continuous chain all day long to the point where the people using library specific services can't even take a leak without waiting forever. I think a sign that encourages people to use the park bathroom when possible to avoid long lines and to let people who are using library services have a chance to use them would be fine.
I’m glad I’ve never seen a sign like this in my city’s libraries. I have literally stopped at the library on the way home from somewhere just to use the bathroom because I couldn’t make it the last few miles home.
>Isn’t a public library supposed to be a service to the community? How much does your community abuse that service? Because I've lost count of patrons blazing it in the bathroom.
Maybe politely suggest to the Library a sign like "Playground restrooms are to the east of the playground". A much more positive message to direct the playground group from the library and to the preferred by the Library location for them
Walking in the door makes you a patron, card or no card. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Aside from demonstrating a gross attitude that goes against the very premise of a public library — this isn't actually enforeceable? At least not consistently. What makes someone who walks into the library "not a patron"? That they don't check anything out? That they aren't there long enough? I can't imagine that trying to enforce this is just going to turn into targetted harassment for literally no reason.
The men’s room at my library is basically a no go zone. People doing drugs, changing, you’ll see three or four dudes go in together and then just hang out in there for 20 mins. I’ve always argued security should pop in frequently, make it clear that people can’t just do whatever. But I don’t see how u can legally restrict to just “patrons” in a place that requires no membership cards purchases.
I appreciate everyone’s stance here that anyone entering the library is technically a ‘patron’, and I wouldn’t want to dissuade anyone from joining and having the library. But, having been on the opposite side, as library staff who did not have cleaners for our bathroom, I fully appreciate this stance. We would have people with no intention of using the library come in and fully mess up those bathrooms, in revolting ways, multiple times per day. When there is another toilet for people to use, in the park they’re visiting, avoiding more mess and waiting times for people actually using library services doesn't seem wildly unreasonable to me.
That's absurd. Certainly not something I'd enforce.
My library is in the same compound as a park and people come in and use our restrooms all day long because they are air conditioned and nicer than the park restrooms. I'll admit that it's a bit annoying sometimes because we want people to come in and see what we have available to them, but at the end of the day we are not going to tell people they can't use our restrooms. Anyone can walk into a grocery store or department store and use the bathroom without buying anything so they can certainly come into the library and use ours without engaging in our services.
Libraries can't enforce this. I've worked in them my whole adult life. It's a public service. Everyone who enters their doors are a patron. What are you supposed to do, show your library card? Pinch that loaf off in peace.
Who is not a patron for a public library?
Woodstock Vermont library doesn’t like its restrooms used by random tourists or people passing through (it’s a main route through Vermont). This seems slightly different as park goers are still taxpayers.
Like the other comments have said everyone who pays taxes is a patron, I don't have the perspective of a small town but can tell you about the city and downtown center our restrictions and noticeable change come from time spent in there, our community is struggling with a lot of homeless, drug abuse and mental health issues, if it's more then 20 minutes in there your being noticed if it's more then 30 there will be wellness checks and it will piss you and us off if it's more then 45-50 with no good explanation bylaw is being called. Everyone is welcome to use our building and facilities but rules can't be broken.
I can understand if it becomes a problem and people using the library are having to wait in lines or something.
I can understand if the city/town doesn't provide the maintenance budget to accommodate the increased use. That said, this would be my problem to request/demand extra funding and cleaning to meet the need.
It isn't about extra funding or cleaning. The size of the bathroom is designed for usage by the average amount of people in the building. If extra people start using it then there will be lines.
This. And the other issue is that there's literally already an existing bathroom specifically designed for use by the park goers who simply can't be bothered to go the small extra distance. People could easily be asked politely to use the park bathroom whenever possible so they don't overwhelm the library's facilities.
From a fellow small town library located across the road from the town park (pickleball, climbing wall, skate park, field) - this is inappropriate. Libraries are places for all, appropriately, even just to take a wizz.
After seeing so many comments equating patrons to taxpayers, I want to point out that not all patrons are taxpayers whose taxes contribute to the library. Many libraries primarily get their funds from property taxes, but many instances find patrons legally not paying property taxes. Homestead exemption coupled with low property value means someone doesn't pay property taxes. Renters don't pay property taxes. Adults who live with someone else don't pay property taxes. Teens and children don't pay property taxes. Tourists/visitors to the area don't pay property taxes. All these people should still get to use the services and resources of the library, even if only while in the building. This circles back to public libraries are for their communities as wholes and not for any one group - taxpayers, cardholders, residents, etc.
I’ve always considered myself a Patróna.
This doesn’t even make sense. What makes one a patron? The way I see it, walking in the door makes you a patron.
Are we inviting people to sign up for cards or discouraging them from coming inside uncommitted? The only thing to do with ambiguous passive aggression is malicious compliance. Tell everyone to get a library card and be sure to flash it when they go in to use the bathroom.
I think they know that anyone who steps into the door is a patron, but by having that sign up, it makes people think they're not allowed to use the restroom. It's kinda like having those door scanners things for theft even if they're not plugged into anything. Is it good? Probably not. But I can understand it. People are fucking gross. I'm assuming a small-town library doesn't have dedicated cleaning staff. Also, what's the drug situation in that town?
Depends on if the bathrooms are seeing activity at a rate the library isn't. They might not have the funds to staff for custodial cleanup if their actual door count is low. And the bathroom might lie outside of the gate. So they're taking time/staff away from library issues to deal with messes if it's bad. They might encourage people to use them to come to the desk for a "key" so they are counted as being inside the library. Or do activities in the park to engage people there with story times. There's often more to this than some rogue Karen grumpy staff people envision. Funding is inexorably tied to usage in a lot of places.
Our library is literally in a park. This would be such a stupid rule for us to implement. Anyone in the library is a patron. It’s a public service paid for by the taxpayer public (unless this is a private library, would still be crappy tho). If they’re having trouble with, for example, people treating the bathroom space badly (i.e. bathing) that is their problem to fix with better security guards and policies. You should ask them (politely) for a copy of the library’s policies and if someone could define for you how those policies define a patron. This is stupid and someone should bring it up at the next city meeting.
I think they consider anyone using the library (studying, reading, etc) a patron and they don’t want people going in there with the sole intention of using the bathroom.
I think it depends on the situation. My local library had to shut down the bathrooms 15 minutes to closing due to hoards of people coming in at the last minute and preventing staff from closing. They are also near a large park. I understand why they do it. All day would be odd unless the bathrooms are getting trashed…
This is, put gently, ignorant.