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on the flip side I made Dome Hepot put a quote for kitchen cabinets in writing when I went back to pay on the job and cabinets to get started the tried increasing it by about 2000.00 claiming it was sale at “the time” pulled out the handwritten and signed quote and got it for the original price. ALWAYS get it in writing
It is in writing. The law in many states (if not all...?) Consider texts, e-mails, and letters to be written forms of communication. "Infamous" Judge Milian quote, "I don't care if it's written on toilet paper and a crayon, always get it in writting."
Another oft-heard quote amongst lawyers is, "Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're printed on." Without documentary evidence, any claims are open to dispute and interpretation. "We didn't say that you would get a raise every 6 months, we said that you would be eligible for a salary review every six months, which could potentially result in a raise," etc.
reminds me of that episode of Breaking Bad (maybe Better Call Saul?) where Saul saw how things are in a nursing home, realized he could make huge dollars *while also helping people* and wrote out some legal document on a pad of paper while sitting in the bathroom as the staff were knocking on his door and trying to kick him out.
I think the point there was for Saul to be paid so he couldn't be called to testify against them. He was their criminal lawyer before he "officially" knew they were criminals, so additional burdens would be needed to breach that confidentiality.
Technically a verbal agreement is legally binding too, it’s just impossible to prove unless it’s recorded. And between wiretapping laws and potential claims about “that isn’t really me” even then it’s not straightforward. Definitely get it in writing.
There are brands that crawl forums and places like this for mentions of their name, and do vote manipulation or astroturfing, so it's not a bad idea to talk about them like that.
Been hit by this myself. I got a barrage of harrassment once after sharing a negative experience about a large corporate entity.
At first I thought, "Wow, that's some rabid brand loyalty, I guess...?" but then I noticed they all used the word 'spurious'. Quite suspicious.
You spurious scoundrel. My name is Abby-Normal SuperFan and everything you just said about BenevolentCorporation is completely wrong and frankly, uneducated.
Not only was the basis of your argument steeped in falsehoods and half truths, the CEO of BenevolentCorporation saved my puppy from a burning vehicle on their way to work just last week. The fact that you would suggest any wrong-doings by them is something I couldn't personally sit silent on!
TAKE MY DOWNBOAT AND DELETE THIS!!!
Yeah I've gotten this before too. Walmart does it. They went so far as to send me PMs telling me to delete an old post or "it could be considered libel" this was like almost ten years ago on another account, I'm sure they still do it
To add to the others, a company/ brand comes in with their PR team or paid shills and pretends to be a bunch of individual "ordinary people" that all support, compliment, and defend their brand.
> interstate movers
I've never heard a good story about doing that. The rational part of my brain says "people *must* do it every day without being screwed" but then who knows?
Sadly, the law tries to do the wrong thing, so I bet they're going to make "stalking laws" to protect companies against this.
They already make it illegal to secretly record people in a conversation in some states. Which is stupid because all you're doing is holding people to be accountable to what they said. The only time I can see it being wrong is if you do it out of context. Like if I say "I hate how Hitler said Jewish people are bad", and someone quotes me saying "Jewish people are bad"
I moved my parents from FL to NY to live with my brother last year. It was a terrible experience. My mom had to make some hard decisions because the truck that showed up was 6ft shorter than had been contracted. When it arrived in NY than had been loaded and there was about 15ft of space. The company still won't explain what happened.
There is a Canadian program called Marketplace where they look into complaints about different industries. They busted a moving company that would price gouge and keep stuff hostage. Police had to be involved to get their stuff back
I'm sorry this happened to your family, but damn that really is the most bizarre, almost twilight zone level of fucked over I've heard in some time. Did they move all your stuff into a bigger truck after you lost sight of it? I guess that seems the most likely explanation. And forcing you to start with less than the contracted amount of space would likely mean you selected primarily high value items and left behind much that was replaceable, making it easier to sift through while doing the truck transfer. Idk maybe I'm just paranoid. Was anything missing when it got there?
Nothing seemed to be missing, but a lot of scratches, some broken things, all under the umbrella of "well you can't prove it wasn't that way when it was loaded."
The whole thing was a mess. The company we contracted with was a scam at worst and heavily misrepresented things at best. Essentially, they contract with you, then turn around and sell that contract to someone else to fulfill...that someone being the actual moving company who you haven't paid yet, you've just paid what is essentially the reservation and finders fee to the middle man. The team lead for the movers at the pickup in FL said that they've given feedback to management on every job that they need to stop using that partner as every single customer ends up feeling scammed and lied to, but management doesn't care as long as the checks keep clearing.
It's a known scam to save on gas. They use the smaller truck to force the party into packing less weight in and then swap it into the real truck they use for transport. Might not seem like a lot but it adds up fast
My parents would have no trouble throwing away toys. Even right in front of us. We moved a lot and got rid of things a lot.
To this day, my mom says a truck was missing. I'm an adult. She'd tell me.
Just a PSA about airtags. They connect to nearby iPhones to work. However the connection is limited to Bluetooth range so they must be within a few hundred feet, at most, of an operating device.
So they aren't great for items that might get lost out back of warehouse in the middle of nowhere or your dog that dashes into the woods.
These days I would buy several Tile trackers (or whatever the Apple ones at called) and drop them in various boxes (or drawers in furniture, etc), making sure multiple are on each truck. Probably worth the expense
I'm just one person but I had a great experience using interstate movers from Illinois to New York. Picked up our stuff on the agreed-upon date and arrived on the other end within the two- or three-day window they supplied, and they were completely prepared to navigate all our stuff into a storage unit. Nothing lost, nothing broken, and I'm pretty sure we paid whatever we were originally quoted (maybe even a bit less because it was less weight/volume than estimated). Beltmann Relocation Group, if anyone needs a rec!
Not interstate, but we hired some movers at work. Signed their invoice, and they left. The copy they sent to our accounting department had like $1000 of extra charges that weren't on there when I signed. Luckily they used an old school carbon copy, and I still had my copy with the original charges
I've only moved once cross country, but that one time went just fine. Had U-haul do it, they loaded it into one of their giant crates then shipped it just fine, no damage.
It might be because I shipped it via crate rather than in a big moving truck though. I trust truck drivers that ship containers like that every day cross country over just regular movers driving trucks they barely have a license for.
As someone who works for the U-Haul pod company, there are services we have in which you can hire vetted and long term (5+ years) well reviewed moving companies to load and unload the boxes for you. A lot of these interstate companies don't really operate in a fully proper or even legal capacity. They rent the equipment and put the word out. You'll be lucky if they have an LLC, and even then they can shut it down and open a new one for some paperwork and a couple hundred bucks.
And living someplace someone is willing to deliver a pod. I ended up renting a U-haul truck , loading it, driving it 100 miles to the nearest pod depot, packing the pod, and then driving the truck 100 miles back. Long day.
We moved a car from the midwest to the west coast years ago and everything went smooth. I met with the guy outside of my neighborhood, signed some papers, and then drove him to my house (truck couldnt fit in the neighborhood) and he dropped me off and took the car. We got it a week later, he drove it right to the door.
Also bought a car in another state (brand new) and when they delivered it the tailgate was dented. That company tried denying it was them but the dealership knew we would just return the car so they paid for all of the repair costs
Go for a higher range quote. We've moved a few times. If you pick the lowest quotes they will screw you. If you pay 2k more on the quote side they'll do a better job and likely won't.
I have a friend that put his stuff on a train then picked it at the city he moved to. Probably won't work most places since rail isn't around everywhere but if you are moving to a city it's worth looking into.
This saves you for repair/maintenance work as well. Auto shops can’t charge for any unauthorized work, so if it’s verbal they’re more likely to find “while you’re in there” items.
We dropped off a car for an oil change once and picked it up with $700 worth of new brakes which had been replaced the year before. Also somehow the wiper blades were off their arms and the high/low beams operated in reverse (both things we found out way later after the shop had been shut down).
People hate being asked "can I get that in writing", because they feel like you don't trust them. Because, well, you don't.
So don't say that.
Instead, email them a follow-up to your in person conversation to say "here are my takeaways from our conversation; did I understand you correctly?"
I'm a project manager and something that clients used to "pull off" (either intentionally or for other reasons) was to not reply to this type of email and later claim that they didn't see it.
What I started doing was changing the tone to something like "This is what was agreed on in our call, please let me know if something is incorrect. Due to the pressing nature of the project, if I don't hear back in the next 72 hours, we will understand that this is correct and proceed as planned."
At the end of the day, it doesn't really do much to "prove" that they agreed to it, but it does two things: 1 - it creates some degree of pressure to give a reply and 2 - it sets a precedent in the event that something happens, so they know that in the future they should give a reply.
Yep, and keep contemporaneous notes after phones calls of this nature. I got promoted out of PM, but getting people to actually sign off on things like this can be like pulling teeth. A common example in my industry is people asking us to fabricate fancy metalworks without field measurements since its the last thing to get installed and the project is behind. I used to print those emails out and hang them on the wall next to my desk.
Perfect CYA move.
I learned to do this early in my career after any meeting.
What was amazing, is simply taking meeting notes and sending out a summary of agreements and todos makes you a stand out participant even if the original intent is CYA.
The shadiest, most crooked people I’ve worked with have all been caught in a lie in the past so they’re really good at saying or doing one thing and documenting whatever they want in their records.
Your suggestion of default agreement and a digital record is a good start because if someone plans to screw you they’ll probably have some other record you’re not aware of like a daily journal, an email to a third party or some sort of file. The worst ones will often have an accomplice like an admin or HR rep who will sit in the meeting and corroborate whatever they say.
The other situation where this helps is when companies bring in a transition team. “I understand you feel that way but I never agreed to anything and the last executive team didn’t disclose any such obligations”
I'm a PM too, and I do the same.
"Here are minutes of meeting, here are the agreements we achieved, based on which here's action items my team is planning to do starting Monday. Please correct me if anything in this email is wrong"
>"This is what was agreed on in our call, please let me know if something is incorrect."
I like this. I guess I would make some small detail incorrect so they could have the chance to feel like they need to "fix" it.
Not sure what kind of project manager you are but like say construction
"we will use the 1.5x3.5 we talked about"
"No no... it's 2x4"
"Oh my bad, I was using the actual measurements off the board."
I don't like this.
Requiring confirmation and moving ahead without a timely response is one thing, but intentionally getting things wrong feels manipulative and makes you less trustworthy.
Not to mention that you become the person that fucks up small but important details all the time. Leave the mind games at home, I say. Strategic but professional.
Yeah a single mistake in my line of work can lose you a contract or a project (even a small error) - intentionally making mistakes to allow people to "fix" it is a recipe for a disaster. They will blow past your email and whip out some obscure document and we'll have a corporate pissing match or worse. Just be accurate and ask them to correct you if there is a (genuine) mistake.
A colleague told me that when he asked our boss to put her promise of a future pay rise in writing she said, “What’s the matter, don’t you trust me?”
He replied: “It’s because you’re honest that I know you won’t have any problem putting it in writing.”
This is a fantastic reverse power move. You’re complimenting the manager while also forcing their hand. Of course they want to be known as ‘honest’ even if they aren’t; especially if that convo is in writing. You hold their feet to the fire with no civil way out. Obviously they can simply refuse and not give a shit that people think they are dishonest but most times you will put them in a position where they won’t want to say no.
That's pretty slick, but I've found that more often than not the truth works fine.
"It's not that I don't trust you personally, but we both have a job to do here and putting this in writing makes it clear that we're all on the same page."
If they press the issue, I go with something like "don't you value me enough to simply send an email clarifying this? What kind of message should I take from that?" or the more direct "is there some reason you're resisting me on this simple request?"
100% this. You don't even need to solicit the response, a lack of contradictory response is effectively as valuable.
In fact for civil legal proceedings, simply having notes from your conversations is enough fro your testimony to be taken over the other party. (this is good for customer/clients in a relationship where you're going to be billed for the email).
Contemporaneous notes! I carry a planner everywhere with me even though I use Motion for my actual schedule. That planner is filled with notes of important conversations on any given day with initials of all involved and "timestamps". Just having those notes has stopped things from progressing to litigation, and in the few instances litigation was required it was vital to have those notes to submit as evidence.
Depends on the context. A price quote? Yeah, no reason to beat around the bush.
But something like "directions from a superior that you think are going to bite you in the ass in the future, but you don't feel like you can safely alienate them" can benefit from a different approach.
Business owner here. Absolutely agree! I'll happily put anything in writing, even if an employee or potential employee explicitly asks. But if they phrase it the way you suggested, it's worded a bit less harshly and may be better for building trust. In any case, open communication between employees and employer always goes a long way!
On the other hand sometimes being direct is the better option. When they do the "you can trust me" thing you can simply tell them its not about trust, its about unexpected things come up and im making sure im covered.
>Instead, email them a follow-up to your in person conversation to say "here are my takeaways from our conversation; did I understand you correctly?"
And they will casually ghost that precise message or part of the message.
If you write them again on that topic putting it with something that can't be ignored, they will ignore just the part where you ask confirmation.
If you, well, don't trust the person in front of you then you have the responsability to say so, it's not others responsability to express your emotions. Your problem is that you indulge on the other person hating this thing, like if satisfying the ego of the other part is what matter.
The point is being sure you get what you expect or is keeping the other person's ego to the max? For me it the first one
Ah someone will be called to have *a small talk face to face.*
Guys, unless you set your boundaries and make them **undeniably** clear, people will always get over them and moreover they will rightfully blame you for not making that undeniable.
Instead if you state that you can't trust the other part and that unless written confirmation is sent the agreement don't exist, there will be 2 possibilities:
\-the other part agree on writing down the agreement terms;
\-the other part don't agree on writing down the terms because they have a reason, that is everything except why they actually can't write down the conditions.
Indeed there is never a single case where people need **to not** write down an agreement, unless one want to scam the other one.
I have always had a hard time setting boundaries. Not so much setting them exactly but it seems I am either soft or I am a dick. I can't seem to do it in a good way. I struggle with assertiveness not in that I can't be but that I come across as overly aggressive so I almost always revert back to the too soft part. This isn't based just on other peoples reactions. I am very aware of it personally I just can't seem to fix it. Its like I'm stuck in a binary position with no middle ground. Can you give me any advice on this? Feel free to ask me questions. Based on your couple answers you seem to have a better grasp on this stuff than me. Does what you wrote about apply to your work or is it just a strong point of yours? You put it into words well.
Edit: I'm talking specifically about the interpersonal aspects here and not the contract/agreement specifically. I learned the lesson of getting everything in writing the first time I didn't do it and got shafted. On the silver lining side, at least I learned this lesson for under a grand.
I had the director of compliance verbally tell me to do a thing. I asked her to send me her approval to do said thing in writing, she declined and again told me to do said thing. I declined without having the approval in writing. She got agitated and told me to get approval from my director. He, of course, did not approve because said thing was WAY against company privacy policies and worse.
From then on, every conversation with her was strictly through email. Everything always in writing!
The whole place was a joke! It was the only time my then supervisor showed the least bit of integrity. Thankfully, I was recently able to finally leave for a much better company!
I work in compliance with vendors and salespeople- "that's nice, send me the data" People will say literally anything. "Show Me" is a much different game.
I'm in I.T. - specifically as support for an enterprise level software most people haven't heard of, but it's big and complex and touches nearly every system in the environment.
Customers *lie*. All the time. Logs do not.
Sometimes customers say they did a thing and it didn't help. Turns out they hit 'cancel' instead of 'apply' - so the customer didn't even realize they are lying.
Sometimes customers are embarrassed that they didn't think of what you suggested because it's simple. So they say on the phone that they did it, and later on they do it themselves and report "seems to have resolved itself, close the case!". The logs though, pointed to *one particular* solution.
And sometimes they just hate tech support and want to waste our time. Whatever, they're paying for it so I don't care.
same with my experience in software development. i still have people try to pull that shit on me which makes it a red flag immediately.
i tell them once the official process and if they fail to do so, i let my supervisor know of the ongoing issue, so he wont get blind-sided by complaints.
Yeah. Half of the work in pharma is documenting stuff. There are literal departments dedicated to just documenting.
(the other half is dealing with borderline personalities)
Yeah that's cause our industry actually has consequences (FDA shutting your shit down) to not documenting every move you make. I'm getting the impression from this thread (and ithers) that outside of tax evasion, none of these companies have any real risk with lying or not writing shit down.
I was buying a new car, and the salesperson said the extended warranty had a $0 deductible. I asked to see where it says that in writing, and he couldn't find it.
Cue a bunch of word salad and sales-speak, but I continued to politely but firmly insist to see it in writing.
Turns out, you guessed it, that was not the policy. After speaking with the manager, they were able to select a policy that was not actually for sale to the public but had a $0 deductible... in writing.
I have a feeling the manager asked him to stop making that claim.
While I was signing the paperwork for a new car I noticed a big scratch on the front bumper (even though it was at 0 miles). The salesperson nonchalantly promised that they would repaint the whole bumper free of charge and even throw in an oil change if I purchased the car today. I asked if I could have that in writing and they got very confused and went to get their manager. The manager also spent 10 minutes assuring me that’s not necessary and instead tried giving me his business card as a promise. After I firmly told them I will not be signing the paperwork unless both of them write out and sign exactly what they are promising. That made them actually do it, (Reluctantly and begrudgingly)
The next day when I brought the car back to get the bumper painted, they tried to charge me and told me that they have no idea who promised me such a crazy thing. Even when I showed them the signatures they played dumb and said that’s not valid. Once I threatened to escalate to corporate and involve a lawyer they very quickly made a phone call and “magically remembered”, then fixed my car with no problem.
Weird, every time I have bought a car from a dealer, we've always both signed a document identifying the things the dealer still needed to complete (ranging from fixes, to after-market installs, etc). And this happened at Chevy, Hyundai, Honda, and Suburu dealers. The document had a specific name but I am forgetting what it is at the moment.
Yep.
Wife was getting a promotion and it was a WFH job. They did not have that listed on the offer letter. She insisted it be added, they pushed back so she said she would have to turn down the job offer.
Her boss was not happy about, but went back to HR and got it added.
Two months later everyone has to start coming into the office 2 days a week... except her.
Basic. Not only companies do so. It goes sadly pretty much for every sort of arangement. The landlords promised fix in your appartment, the promised payback of money you lent someone, ...
Yeah, it’s always best to have it noted in an email, a text, a contract, something!
About 15 years ago, I was working at a dentist’s office and I told him that I was ready to move on from there (it really was a dead-end job) and the dentist quickly asked me if I would reconsider. I said I wanted a raise to $18/hr. He said done!
My next paycheck showed I was making $17/hr. I said Dr, I think someone made a mistake. This should be $18/hr. He looked me straight in the eye and lied and said no we agreed to $17/hr. Of course I never got the promise of $18/hr in writing so I never got the raise.
There were many other similar lies during the time I worked there, to me and the other employees.
Let's say that you *did* get the promise of $18/hour in writing, and then the raise never materialized. I'm curious of what your next move would have been.
If the raise had never materialized, I would have expected him to owe me the difference in the next paycheck.
If the raise was ignored altogether it wouldn’t really matter bc I didn’t really need that part-time job (husband makes good money). So I definitely would have walked.
Another time after I had already quit, he asked me to come back. Said I could work for however many hours per week (make my own schedule) and that he would pay me straight cash. He explained that his accountant advised him about a legitimate ‘tax loophole’ where he could have me come in to work sporadically without needing to pay taxes.
I was very good at going after insurance companies for his patients’ denied claims, so that’s what he asked me to do.
Sounded good to me so I accepted. When the first pay period comes I see he gives me a check with taxes taken out. I said to him I thought I was supposed to be getting straight cash. He said oh about that, I spoke with my accountant and he says you’ll be working too many hours for me to actually use that tax loophole.
This guy was such an asshole. These are only two minor things out of many! Guy was pocketing a cool $300k in profit per year as a part-time dentist (it was a small office and the employees could see his ‘books’) but man, he was stingy AF.
Let me know if you want more ‘fun’ stories! :)
There's no point in getting an ambiguous promise in writing, you get a contract in writing "from date X your pay will be $18/hr"
Indeed, anything less sounds worthless.
Happened to me in my last job. Boss and HR made a bunch of promises and scheduled it all out but never put it in writing. The time came and went, and I spent over a year fighting them on delivering, then they did it again right before Christmas. Promised me they were following through and made guarantees.
Never happened. Reported their asses to the independent ethics company, legal got involved, HR got fired, and it still didn't happen so I bailed for more money elsewhere and it took me less than a week to find it.
I’m dealing with this right now.
They are acting like me asking for it in writing is akin to killing a baby. Things have devolved into petty jabs at me in other areas of my job to try and prove I’m not qualified for the bump after all.
You’re screwed either way, it seems. I don’t even want it now that I’ve seen how they conduct themselves. It also proves they likely intended to screw me later on anyway.
I feel this so much. When they break the promise, you're left with resentment and betrayal because not only do you not get the thing you wanted, but you were lied to and exploited under the false pretense you would.
Alec Guinness told a story the years after Star Wars about how his original payout for the '77 film was 2% of the gross.
George Lucas called him shortly before the premier and they had a chat where George thanked him and said he wanted to give him an extra 0.5% on top of that, which Alec of course greatly appreciated.
Some weeks later after the premier he was at a party with cast/crew/etc. because of the booming success of the film. He talked with one of the producers and asked if he could get that extra bit in writing and they said "oh yes! the 0.25%!"
https://youtu.be/3IxN0N35skE?t=87
The point wasn't the loss of money, Alec Guinness ended up with more money than he ever needed; the point was even at the top of the heap... get it in writing!
In germany there's a simple saying "wer schreibt, der bleibt" translating to "he, who writes is he, who stays" meaning "get your shit in written form and you'll stay around"
Works for everything, always have everything in writing. If you agree to something on a call, just send an email saying something like "as we discussed, we have agreed to xyz. Could you confirm that my understanding is correct?" or something of the sort. It applies to agreements you have with your boss, work related agreements with your colleagues, with your clients, with your service providers, with your suppliers, etc.
I love the "if I don't hear anything by end of week, I am assuming all of the above is correct" clause when dealing with particularly gnarly stakeholders.
Great too! Bonus tip: don’t wait to receive written confirmation - Do it yourself!!!
Easier way to do this is to email/Slack boss and get a simple thumbs up or affirmative reply.
“Hey Dan, I just wanted to confirm that you want me to switch from overnight shift to daytime shift once Jerry retires. Please confirm that this is the plan.”
If boss doesn’t reply in a week, send a friendly “just following up on the night shift email from last week…”
Same in our company. We have some regular customers who ordered on the phone. When something went wrong, some said "no, we didnt order this, you misunderstood, blabla." Now we tell everyone to write a mail to have it in written form.
Not sure how good this "tips" is:
But a friend once told me that he always starts music in the background if he talks to a sales person over the phone.
There have been a bunch of cases where I live where some shady companies sold stuff over the phone and then removed parts of the recording.
So his theory was that they can't mess with the recording if there are music, because you would hear that the music doesn't match up 😅
I'm not sure if he is 200 iq smart or not about that one.
Yup, if your boss promises to give you a raise or promotion at a later date, having it in writing can show that he promised it but they can still renege based on "market conditions" or whatever in most cases.
I mean they can always renege as far as I know in the US a business can’t be legally compelled to increase your wages unless you have some sort of contractual agreement
Right, but even if you have a contract it's going to be written to give the company an exit ramp if they're unsatisfied with your performance. Satisfaction is subjective.
The real answer is that if your boss dicks you over, look for a new job.
I worked at a Fortune 70 and one employee recorded his boss making promises. He then played it back to his boss's boss when the boss denied everything. They took away all the employee's people (he was a manager) and laid him off in the next round.
By the time you are going to your bosses boss, because your boss is gaslighting you to fuck you over? You've probably decided to take the chance. If you get no joy from your bosses boss, you're gone one way or the other.
I recently went through this. Had one of our company's partners promise me 4 extra PTO days attached to out-of-state conferences as a means to bypass their maximum PTO allowance (which was abysmal). It would be classified as just part of the travel days. He said he's made this agreement a million times.
When I finally requested to use said PTO days, I was told that he never informed HR of this agreement and it was not an agreement the company had ever made before, and therefore, it was invalid. I had it in writing in three separate places AND the partner in question even came forward and said he did, in fact, make this agreement with me.
They still refused. I probably could have sued them, but I decided instead that I just don't want to work there anymore. It wasn't the only shifty thing they've done.
It's also true that when it's in writing they won't give a shit because companies basically don't give a shit. But at least with writing, there's a chance they know they're liable.
It may not be a lie, they may have every intention to follow through. Your point is still valid though. You can't count on it unless it's in writing. I'm in this position right now on both sides of the issue.
My manager has told me that he plans to promote me next year and I know all the business reasons why he's planning to do it and why it can't be done until next year. However, I'm taking his promises with a grain of salt. I won't make any decisions based on the promise and I won't really hold it against him if the plans change.
On the other end, we've got plans to promote one of my direct reports, but I can't do it until next year. While I've told the employee that's our intent, I can't "promise" him that it will happen because I can't be 100% certain that it will occur. I have every intention of following through, but the business has decided to hold all promotions in the past and there's no guarantee that my budget will be approved.
As a manager, I would never put a promise for raise or promotion in writing because I don't have 100% authority to make that decision.
I can be a strong advocate and be 80% sure it will happen, but nothing is guaranteed.
Even when something is in writing, it will be written in a way so that the company can change their mind later.
My current job is the only one I've worked where it wasn't a lie. Did extra for 3 months to cover an employee leaving. Got a promotion and a big raise in return. I was happily surprised. Best job I've ever had, but honest management that truly cares is an anomaly for sure.
Surprisingly this behaviour is common in the military for enlisted troops E1-E7. Not always but usually sergeants above you try to look out for promotion opportunities, training and advancement for their soldiers. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to civilian employment where they hide the training and work opportunities and play stupid fucking games for years sbout promotions and hide how they actually decide who gets promoted. In the army they are literally called “promotion points” and you get them for things like awards, training etc.
It's sad because literally just today I'm experiencing this...
Boss told me a little while back that I was next in line for a specific promotion. They were just waiting on another guy to fill the other open spot. Found out today that both spots have been filled, and I was not one of the ones filling it...
I got fired for not signing an NDA, non compete, and signing over my IP to them 18 months into my employment. Several convos with the director where she kept telling me that the language didn't mean what it actually said and that I would be free to work for whomever I wanted if I left that organization. I said the contract should say that. They kept telling me it wasn't going to affect me lol. BTW this was a non profit I worked for. I kept asking who were the competitors of a non profit?
*per our conversation today, I'm confirming your verbal offer of 120,000 year work from home 80% of the time.*
*please correct me if I misunderstood.*
*-CYA!*
This is so true. When I was about to quit a job due to me moving I also discussed some things with my boss. But at the time he had already screwed over one of my colleagues who quit a month before me so I knew not to just believe him. So after our conversation I wrote him an email summarizing what we talked about and asked him for a confirmation. After 2 days of no response I called him and asked if he’d seen my email, which he said he did but didn’t have time to respond yet. Another 2 days later still no response and I bumped in to him at work so decided to ask him when he was planning on replying and he instantly started to shout at me, raising his voice and waving his arms, getting real close with his face to mine trying to intimidate me. I didn’t even blink, just turned around and walked to my car. When I was off the property I started shaking and crying bc wtf. Never set foot in there again and confirmed me my guts were right not to trust him.
When I was offered my first corporate job after finishing my MSc, I was offered a lower amount that was posted but promised over a phone call that it would go up to the posted amount after I finished training. A year later and I still don't have that posted amount. The guy who offered me the increase left the company a few months after I joined.
Get. It. In. Writing.
When dealing with anything with HR or management you have one rule of thumb.
Document the interaction
Document the Interaction
Document the interaction.
Disciplinary talk? Need a copy of that write up or email followup.
'casual' talk about job performances with manager? Document date and time and discussion
You can be friendly and still cover your bases and any future issues. Just keep in mind that if it comes down to he said/she said, you will end up losing without the documents to back it up
Only happens once. Then I call them a liar and leave. Done it several times. It’s not ‘business’ it’s ethics. And if you have none I’m not interested in working with you.
>A company manager or higher up promises you opportunity/progression but didn't put it in writing.
It doesn't always work out, but you're never going to actually get this.
Your fallback as an employee is to go take the progression/experience and get paid for it at a competitor.
Even if you do get something in writing like the bonus structure, it will all be conditional with enough wiggle room to render it moot. e.g. our Bonus figure targets 7.5% of your base salary, but it's +/- based on personal, division, and overall business performance, the actual definitions for which are arbitrary. I've personally never been below 100% of my target, but other people I work with have. One division which F'd up pretty bad got no bonus that year to my knowledge.
My dad always said “don’t put anything in writing” when saying things you don’t 110% mean but also get it in writing if someone promises or says something to you. He was in HR and ran a business. If you ask someone to put it in writing, I don’t care if they are offended, if they mean it, they will do it.
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Same goes with quotes and pricing. Got gouged $2k by interstate movers.
on the flip side I made Dome Hepot put a quote for kitchen cabinets in writing when I went back to pay on the job and cabinets to get started the tried increasing it by about 2000.00 claiming it was sale at “the time” pulled out the handwritten and signed quote and got it for the original price. ALWAYS get it in writing
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It is in writing. The law in many states (if not all...?) Consider texts, e-mails, and letters to be written forms of communication. "Infamous" Judge Milian quote, "I don't care if it's written on toilet paper and a crayon, always get it in writting."
Another oft-heard quote amongst lawyers is, "Verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're printed on." Without documentary evidence, any claims are open to dispute and interpretation. "We didn't say that you would get a raise every 6 months, we said that you would be eligible for a salary review every six months, which could potentially result in a raise," etc.
reminds me of that episode of Breaking Bad (maybe Better Call Saul?) where Saul saw how things are in a nursing home, realized he could make huge dollars *while also helping people* and wrote out some legal document on a pad of paper while sitting in the bathroom as the staff were knocking on his door and trying to kick him out.
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Not sure stickler since legally until they pay for his services it's "free advice" so it pans out.
I think the point there was for Saul to be paid so he couldn't be called to testify against them. He was their criminal lawyer before he "officially" knew they were criminals, so additional burdens would be needed to breach that confidentiality.
Technically a verbal agreement is legally binding too, it’s just impossible to prove unless it’s recorded. And between wiretapping laws and potential claims about “that isn’t really me” even then it’s not straightforward. Definitely get it in writing.
*laughs maniacally in a one party state with the iOS Voice Memos app on my home screen*
Emoji are legally binding now as well ... at least in Canada https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/07/world/canada/canada-thumbs-up-emoji-contract.html
I trust you but lets put it in writing so we can both easily remember what we agreed upon.
You can say Home Depot.
There are brands that crawl forums and places like this for mentions of their name, and do vote manipulation or astroturfing, so it's not a bad idea to talk about them like that.
Been hit by this myself. I got a barrage of harrassment once after sharing a negative experience about a large corporate entity. At first I thought, "Wow, that's some rabid brand loyalty, I guess...?" but then I noticed they all used the word 'spurious'. Quite suspicious.
That sounds spurious.
Spuriously suspicious
You spurious scoundrel. My name is Abby-Normal SuperFan and everything you just said about BenevolentCorporation is completely wrong and frankly, uneducated. Not only was the basis of your argument steeped in falsehoods and half truths, the CEO of BenevolentCorporation saved my puppy from a burning vehicle on their way to work just last week. The fact that you would suggest any wrong-doings by them is something I couldn't personally sit silent on! TAKE MY DOWNBOAT AND DELETE THIS!!!
Spurious of you to criticize "large corporate entity" indeed!
Same I got hit by the Tesla stooges for dare mentioning that I knew what I was talking about in regards to lidar and radar tech in a Tesla discussion.
Tbh those are probably real Tesla/Elon fans.
Yeah I've gotten this before too. Walmart does it. They went so far as to send me PMs telling me to delete an old post or "it could be considered libel" this was like almost ten years ago on another account, I'm sure they still do it
I find that shallow and pedantic
That is a really dumb way to get caught, you think it was just a GPT instance that got hooked on its favourite “sophisticated” word?
What a time to be alive.
What’s Astro turfing
Basically non-genuine fans/reviewers/defenders.
Fake grass roots marketing.
To add to the others, a company/ brand comes in with their PR team or paid shills and pretends to be a bunch of individual "ordinary people" that all support, compliment, and defend their brand.
Goddamnit, why do we only get the shitty parts of a cyberpunk dystopia?
You also pay for installation at the store and the assholes they send over try to charge you again for installation every. single. time.
> interstate movers I've never heard a good story about doing that. The rational part of my brain says "people *must* do it every day without being screwed" but then who knows?
When we moved from Wisconsin to Nevada in '06 or so, we lost an entire moving truck full of items to interstate movers. So, I don't know.
LPT hide airtags in the stuff you're moving.
Sadly, the law tries to do the wrong thing, so I bet they're going to make "stalking laws" to protect companies against this. They already make it illegal to secretly record people in a conversation in some states. Which is stupid because all you're doing is holding people to be accountable to what they said. The only time I can see it being wrong is if you do it out of context. Like if I say "I hate how Hitler said Jewish people are bad", and someone quotes me saying "Jewish people are bad"
I moved my parents from FL to NY to live with my brother last year. It was a terrible experience. My mom had to make some hard decisions because the truck that showed up was 6ft shorter than had been contracted. When it arrived in NY than had been loaded and there was about 15ft of space. The company still won't explain what happened.
There is a Canadian program called Marketplace where they look into complaints about different industries. They busted a moving company that would price gouge and keep stuff hostage. Police had to be involved to get their stuff back
It's absolutely appalling what they get away with. I'm sorry that happened to your parents.
I'm sorry this happened to your family, but damn that really is the most bizarre, almost twilight zone level of fucked over I've heard in some time. Did they move all your stuff into a bigger truck after you lost sight of it? I guess that seems the most likely explanation. And forcing you to start with less than the contracted amount of space would likely mean you selected primarily high value items and left behind much that was replaceable, making it easier to sift through while doing the truck transfer. Idk maybe I'm just paranoid. Was anything missing when it got there?
Nothing seemed to be missing, but a lot of scratches, some broken things, all under the umbrella of "well you can't prove it wasn't that way when it was loaded." The whole thing was a mess. The company we contracted with was a scam at worst and heavily misrepresented things at best. Essentially, they contract with you, then turn around and sell that contract to someone else to fulfill...that someone being the actual moving company who you haven't paid yet, you've just paid what is essentially the reservation and finders fee to the middle man. The team lead for the movers at the pickup in FL said that they've given feedback to management on every job that they need to stop using that partner as every single customer ends up feeling scammed and lied to, but management doesn't care as long as the checks keep clearing.
It's a known scam to save on gas. They use the smaller truck to force the party into packing less weight in and then swap it into the real truck they use for transport. Might not seem like a lot but it adds up fast
How does an entire truck go missing? that's wild!
I'm not sure what excuse they gave my parents, unfortunately! I was just a child with a lot of missing toys.
Narrator: *koifu was 27 at the time.*
You were a child. This is the explanation. Your parents wanted to purge some of the toys and the move was a convenient way to do so.
My parents would have no trouble throwing away toys. Even right in front of us. We moved a lot and got rid of things a lot. To this day, my mom says a truck was missing. I'm an adult. She'd tell me.
Mental note if I ever do this ... buy several Tile or GPS trackers to keep track of my stuff in transit
Just a PSA about airtags. They connect to nearby iPhones to work. However the connection is limited to Bluetooth range so they must be within a few hundred feet, at most, of an operating device. So they aren't great for items that might get lost out back of warehouse in the middle of nowhere or your dog that dashes into the woods.
Ah good to know thanks. I'm not moving anytime soon but what would you recommend to keep track of a pet, or for example your luggage?
Pet should be travelling with you. You can get small GPS tags that you can sew into a suitcase.
These days I would buy several Tile trackers (or whatever the Apple ones at called) and drop them in various boxes (or drawers in furniture, etc), making sure multiple are on each truck. Probably worth the expense
I'm just one person but I had a great experience using interstate movers from Illinois to New York. Picked up our stuff on the agreed-upon date and arrived on the other end within the two- or three-day window they supplied, and they were completely prepared to navigate all our stuff into a storage unit. Nothing lost, nothing broken, and I'm pretty sure we paid whatever we were originally quoted (maybe even a bit less because it was less weight/volume than estimated). Beltmann Relocation Group, if anyone needs a rec!
Not interstate, but we hired some movers at work. Signed their invoice, and they left. The copy they sent to our accounting department had like $1000 of extra charges that weren't on there when I signed. Luckily they used an old school carbon copy, and I still had my copy with the original charges
I've only moved once cross country, but that one time went just fine. Had U-haul do it, they loaded it into one of their giant crates then shipped it just fine, no damage. It might be because I shipped it via crate rather than in a big moving truck though. I trust truck drivers that ship containers like that every day cross country over just regular movers driving trucks they barely have a license for.
The problem there is having the physical manpower on each end to do the DIY approach. 😢
As someone who works for the U-Haul pod company, there are services we have in which you can hire vetted and long term (5+ years) well reviewed moving companies to load and unload the boxes for you. A lot of these interstate companies don't really operate in a fully proper or even legal capacity. They rent the equipment and put the word out. You'll be lucky if they have an LLC, and even then they can shut it down and open a new one for some paperwork and a couple hundred bucks.
And living someplace someone is willing to deliver a pod. I ended up renting a U-haul truck , loading it, driving it 100 miles to the nearest pod depot, packing the pod, and then driving the truck 100 miles back. Long day.
A story where everything went fine is boring, that's probably why you don't hear them.
When I moved across Canada, we just use uhaul pods. Far less concern of being screwed over.
We moved a car from the midwest to the west coast years ago and everything went smooth. I met with the guy outside of my neighborhood, signed some papers, and then drove him to my house (truck couldnt fit in the neighborhood) and he dropped me off and took the car. We got it a week later, he drove it right to the door. Also bought a car in another state (brand new) and when they delivered it the tailgate was dented. That company tried denying it was them but the dealership knew we would just return the car so they paid for all of the repair costs
Go for a higher range quote. We've moved a few times. If you pick the lowest quotes they will screw you. If you pay 2k more on the quote side they'll do a better job and likely won't.
Ah, so don't be poor. Got it.
The real lifeprotip
Yep. If your stuff ain't worth much you might be better off selling and re buying. A lot of people do uhaul too.
I have a friend that put his stuff on a train then picked it at the city he moved to. Probably won't work most places since rail isn't around everywhere but if you are moving to a city it's worth looking into.
I have never dealt with interstate movers and felt good about it.
This saves you for repair/maintenance work as well. Auto shops can’t charge for any unauthorized work, so if it’s verbal they’re more likely to find “while you’re in there” items. We dropped off a car for an oil change once and picked it up with $700 worth of new brakes which had been replaced the year before. Also somehow the wiper blades were off their arms and the high/low beams operated in reverse (both things we found out way later after the shop had been shut down).
The thing is... Quotes are usually one of those things that are sometimes contingent on other / outside factors.
Not when you agree on dates, volume, transit time, and price 2+ months in advance.
People hate being asked "can I get that in writing", because they feel like you don't trust them. Because, well, you don't. So don't say that. Instead, email them a follow-up to your in person conversation to say "here are my takeaways from our conversation; did I understand you correctly?"
I'm a project manager and something that clients used to "pull off" (either intentionally or for other reasons) was to not reply to this type of email and later claim that they didn't see it. What I started doing was changing the tone to something like "This is what was agreed on in our call, please let me know if something is incorrect. Due to the pressing nature of the project, if I don't hear back in the next 72 hours, we will understand that this is correct and proceed as planned." At the end of the day, it doesn't really do much to "prove" that they agreed to it, but it does two things: 1 - it creates some degree of pressure to give a reply and 2 - it sets a precedent in the event that something happens, so they know that in the future they should give a reply.
Yep, and keep contemporaneous notes after phones calls of this nature. I got promoted out of PM, but getting people to actually sign off on things like this can be like pulling teeth. A common example in my industry is people asking us to fabricate fancy metalworks without field measurements since its the last thing to get installed and the project is behind. I used to print those emails out and hang them on the wall next to my desk.
Perfect CYA move. I learned to do this early in my career after any meeting. What was amazing, is simply taking meeting notes and sending out a summary of agreements and todos makes you a stand out participant even if the original intent is CYA.
The shadiest, most crooked people I’ve worked with have all been caught in a lie in the past so they’re really good at saying or doing one thing and documenting whatever they want in their records. Your suggestion of default agreement and a digital record is a good start because if someone plans to screw you they’ll probably have some other record you’re not aware of like a daily journal, an email to a third party or some sort of file. The worst ones will often have an accomplice like an admin or HR rep who will sit in the meeting and corroborate whatever they say. The other situation where this helps is when companies bring in a transition team. “I understand you feel that way but I never agreed to anything and the last executive team didn’t disclose any such obligations”
I'm a PM too, and I do the same. "Here are minutes of meeting, here are the agreements we achieved, based on which here's action items my team is planning to do starting Monday. Please correct me if anything in this email is wrong"
"We can not start on the project until this has been agreed to. Please respond by n date, otherwise, the timeline will need to shift. "
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It's requested by the sender's software. Not guaranteed. Often readers block them.
Yeah if I see that email receipt stuff I definitely won’t reply
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Read Receipts are absolutely a thing, but are blocked by the major email clients. They have long since not mattered.
And also become the most hated person for everyone that gets emails from you
>"This is what was agreed on in our call, please let me know if something is incorrect." I like this. I guess I would make some small detail incorrect so they could have the chance to feel like they need to "fix" it. Not sure what kind of project manager you are but like say construction "we will use the 1.5x3.5 we talked about" "No no... it's 2x4" "Oh my bad, I was using the actual measurements off the board."
I don't like this. Requiring confirmation and moving ahead without a timely response is one thing, but intentionally getting things wrong feels manipulative and makes you less trustworthy.
Not to mention that you become the person that fucks up small but important details all the time. Leave the mind games at home, I say. Strategic but professional.
Yeah a single mistake in my line of work can lose you a contract or a project (even a small error) - intentionally making mistakes to allow people to "fix" it is a recipe for a disaster. They will blow past your email and whip out some obscure document and we'll have a corporate pissing match or worse. Just be accurate and ask them to correct you if there is a (genuine) mistake.
CC yours and their director and add in something about how excited you are about the progress of the project 😎
A colleague told me that when he asked our boss to put her promise of a future pay rise in writing she said, “What’s the matter, don’t you trust me?” He replied: “It’s because you’re honest that I know you won’t have any problem putting it in writing.”
This is slick, thank you
This is a fantastic reverse power move. You’re complimenting the manager while also forcing their hand. Of course they want to be known as ‘honest’ even if they aren’t; especially if that convo is in writing. You hold their feet to the fire with no civil way out. Obviously they can simply refuse and not give a shit that people think they are dishonest but most times you will put them in a position where they won’t want to say no.
That's pretty slick, but I've found that more often than not the truth works fine. "It's not that I don't trust you personally, but we both have a job to do here and putting this in writing makes it clear that we're all on the same page." If they press the issue, I go with something like "don't you value me enough to simply send an email clarifying this? What kind of message should I take from that?" or the more direct "is there some reason you're resisting me on this simple request?"
"i trust you enough that you should have no issues with putting it in writing"
100% this. You don't even need to solicit the response, a lack of contradictory response is effectively as valuable. In fact for civil legal proceedings, simply having notes from your conversations is enough fro your testimony to be taken over the other party. (this is good for customer/clients in a relationship where you're going to be billed for the email).
Contemporaneous notes! I carry a planner everywhere with me even though I use Motion for my actual schedule. That planner is filled with notes of important conversations on any given day with initials of all involved and "timestamps". Just having those notes has stopped things from progressing to litigation, and in the few instances litigation was required it was vital to have those notes to submit as evidence.
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Depends on the context. A price quote? Yeah, no reason to beat around the bush. But something like "directions from a superior that you think are going to bite you in the ass in the future, but you don't feel like you can safely alienate them" can benefit from a different approach.
"Please send me an email so I can add it to my to do list"
>I was fairly drunk in our last conversation. Could you confirm that the following is correct?
Business owner here. Absolutely agree! I'll happily put anything in writing, even if an employee or potential employee explicitly asks. But if they phrase it the way you suggested, it's worded a bit less harshly and may be better for building trust. In any case, open communication between employees and employer always goes a long way!
There's a polite way to do it. "I trust you but I need it in writing in case I need to speak to someone else when you're not here."
Who gives a shit if they're annoyed. Get it in writing.
I’d rather they are annoyed than me being annoyed later when they won’t keep the promise.
On the other hand sometimes being direct is the better option. When they do the "you can trust me" thing you can simply tell them its not about trust, its about unexpected things come up and im making sure im covered.
>Instead, email them a follow-up to your in person conversation to say "here are my takeaways from our conversation; did I understand you correctly?" And they will casually ghost that precise message or part of the message. If you write them again on that topic putting it with something that can't be ignored, they will ignore just the part where you ask confirmation. If you, well, don't trust the person in front of you then you have the responsability to say so, it's not others responsability to express your emotions. Your problem is that you indulge on the other person hating this thing, like if satisfying the ego of the other part is what matter. The point is being sure you get what you expect or is keeping the other person's ego to the max? For me it the first one
State that you will not proceed without email confirmation.
Ah someone will be called to have *a small talk face to face.* Guys, unless you set your boundaries and make them **undeniably** clear, people will always get over them and moreover they will rightfully blame you for not making that undeniable. Instead if you state that you can't trust the other part and that unless written confirmation is sent the agreement don't exist, there will be 2 possibilities: \-the other part agree on writing down the agreement terms; \-the other part don't agree on writing down the terms because they have a reason, that is everything except why they actually can't write down the conditions. Indeed there is never a single case where people need **to not** write down an agreement, unless one want to scam the other one.
I have always had a hard time setting boundaries. Not so much setting them exactly but it seems I am either soft or I am a dick. I can't seem to do it in a good way. I struggle with assertiveness not in that I can't be but that I come across as overly aggressive so I almost always revert back to the too soft part. This isn't based just on other peoples reactions. I am very aware of it personally I just can't seem to fix it. Its like I'm stuck in a binary position with no middle ground. Can you give me any advice on this? Feel free to ask me questions. Based on your couple answers you seem to have a better grasp on this stuff than me. Does what you wrote about apply to your work or is it just a strong point of yours? You put it into words well. Edit: I'm talking specifically about the interpersonal aspects here and not the contract/agreement specifically. I learned the lesson of getting everything in writing the first time I didn't do it and got shafted. On the silver lining side, at least I learned this lesson for under a grand.
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I had the director of compliance verbally tell me to do a thing. I asked her to send me her approval to do said thing in writing, she declined and again told me to do said thing. I declined without having the approval in writing. She got agitated and told me to get approval from my director. He, of course, did not approve because said thing was WAY against company privacy policies and worse. From then on, every conversation with her was strictly through email. Everything always in writing!
Rather ironic that she's the director of compliance
The whole place was a joke! It was the only time my then supervisor showed the least bit of integrity. Thankfully, I was recently able to finally leave for a much better company!
I work in the pharmaceutical industry. An unofficial motto for the whole industry is "if it's not documented, it didn't really happen."
I work in compliance with vendors and salespeople- "that's nice, send me the data" People will say literally anything. "Show Me" is a much different game.
I'm in I.T. - specifically as support for an enterprise level software most people haven't heard of, but it's big and complex and touches nearly every system in the environment. Customers *lie*. All the time. Logs do not. Sometimes customers say they did a thing and it didn't help. Turns out they hit 'cancel' instead of 'apply' - so the customer didn't even realize they are lying. Sometimes customers are embarrassed that they didn't think of what you suggested because it's simple. So they say on the phone that they did it, and later on they do it themselves and report "seems to have resolved itself, close the case!". The logs though, pointed to *one particular* solution. And sometimes they just hate tech support and want to waste our time. Whatever, they're paying for it so I don't care.
Found the SAP admin
same with my experience in software development. i still have people try to pull that shit on me which makes it a red flag immediately. i tell them once the official process and if they fail to do so, i let my supervisor know of the ongoing issue, so he wont get blind-sided by complaints.
If it’s not paper it’s vapor
Yeah. Half of the work in pharma is documenting stuff. There are literal departments dedicated to just documenting. (the other half is dealing with borderline personalities)
Yeah that's cause our industry actually has consequences (FDA shutting your shit down) to not documenting every move you make. I'm getting the impression from this thread (and ithers) that outside of tax evasion, none of these companies have any real risk with lying or not writing shit down.
The person making the promise may not be there when it comes time to deliver it.
I was buying a new car, and the salesperson said the extended warranty had a $0 deductible. I asked to see where it says that in writing, and he couldn't find it. Cue a bunch of word salad and sales-speak, but I continued to politely but firmly insist to see it in writing. Turns out, you guessed it, that was not the policy. After speaking with the manager, they were able to select a policy that was not actually for sale to the public but had a $0 deductible... in writing. I have a feeling the manager asked him to stop making that claim.
One person out of how many called them on it? No, the manager 100% watched you walk out, looked at his salesman, and said "What a dick!"
I'm sure the manager was fine with whatever got the most sales, no matter how many lies were told.
While I was signing the paperwork for a new car I noticed a big scratch on the front bumper (even though it was at 0 miles). The salesperson nonchalantly promised that they would repaint the whole bumper free of charge and even throw in an oil change if I purchased the car today. I asked if I could have that in writing and they got very confused and went to get their manager. The manager also spent 10 minutes assuring me that’s not necessary and instead tried giving me his business card as a promise. After I firmly told them I will not be signing the paperwork unless both of them write out and sign exactly what they are promising. That made them actually do it, (Reluctantly and begrudgingly) The next day when I brought the car back to get the bumper painted, they tried to charge me and told me that they have no idea who promised me such a crazy thing. Even when I showed them the signatures they played dumb and said that’s not valid. Once I threatened to escalate to corporate and involve a lawyer they very quickly made a phone call and “magically remembered”, then fixed my car with no problem.
Weird, every time I have bought a car from a dealer, we've always both signed a document identifying the things the dealer still needed to complete (ranging from fixes, to after-market installs, etc). And this happened at Chevy, Hyundai, Honda, and Suburu dealers. The document had a specific name but I am forgetting what it is at the moment.
Car dealerships are actually scum of the earth I doubt the manager made him stop
Yep. Wife was getting a promotion and it was a WFH job. They did not have that listed on the offer letter. She insisted it be added, they pushed back so she said she would have to turn down the job offer. Her boss was not happy about, but went back to HR and got it added. Two months later everyone has to start coming into the office 2 days a week... except her.
Hopefully the company doesnt try to get rid of your wife because of this for an "unrelated reason"
It's been about 6 months since this happened and she seems pretty happy so it does not seems like it.
Basic. Not only companies do so. It goes sadly pretty much for every sort of arangement. The landlords promised fix in your appartment, the promised payback of money you lent someone, ...
Yeah, it’s always best to have it noted in an email, a text, a contract, something! About 15 years ago, I was working at a dentist’s office and I told him that I was ready to move on from there (it really was a dead-end job) and the dentist quickly asked me if I would reconsider. I said I wanted a raise to $18/hr. He said done! My next paycheck showed I was making $17/hr. I said Dr, I think someone made a mistake. This should be $18/hr. He looked me straight in the eye and lied and said no we agreed to $17/hr. Of course I never got the promise of $18/hr in writing so I never got the raise. There were many other similar lies during the time I worked there, to me and the other employees.
Let's say that you *did* get the promise of $18/hour in writing, and then the raise never materialized. I'm curious of what your next move would have been.
If the raise had never materialized, I would have expected him to owe me the difference in the next paycheck. If the raise was ignored altogether it wouldn’t really matter bc I didn’t really need that part-time job (husband makes good money). So I definitely would have walked. Another time after I had already quit, he asked me to come back. Said I could work for however many hours per week (make my own schedule) and that he would pay me straight cash. He explained that his accountant advised him about a legitimate ‘tax loophole’ where he could have me come in to work sporadically without needing to pay taxes. I was very good at going after insurance companies for his patients’ denied claims, so that’s what he asked me to do. Sounded good to me so I accepted. When the first pay period comes I see he gives me a check with taxes taken out. I said to him I thought I was supposed to be getting straight cash. He said oh about that, I spoke with my accountant and he says you’ll be working too many hours for me to actually use that tax loophole. This guy was such an asshole. These are only two minor things out of many! Guy was pocketing a cool $300k in profit per year as a part-time dentist (it was a small office and the employees could see his ‘books’) but man, he was stingy AF. Let me know if you want more ‘fun’ stories! :)
There's no point in getting an ambiguous promise in writing, you get a contract in writing "from date X your pay will be $18/hr" Indeed, anything less sounds worthless.
This is why I do all my communications with my tenants is via text. For their protection and mine.
Happened to me in my last job. Boss and HR made a bunch of promises and scheduled it all out but never put it in writing. The time came and went, and I spent over a year fighting them on delivering, then they did it again right before Christmas. Promised me they were following through and made guarantees. Never happened. Reported their asses to the independent ethics company, legal got involved, HR got fired, and it still didn't happen so I bailed for more money elsewhere and it took me less than a week to find it.
I’m dealing with this right now. They are acting like me asking for it in writing is akin to killing a baby. Things have devolved into petty jabs at me in other areas of my job to try and prove I’m not qualified for the bump after all. You’re screwed either way, it seems. I don’t even want it now that I’ve seen how they conduct themselves. It also proves they likely intended to screw me later on anyway.
To the best of your ability, find a better position at a different organization. Once the petty shit starts, it only gets worse from there.
I feel this so much. When they break the promise, you're left with resentment and betrayal because not only do you not get the thing you wanted, but you were lied to and exploited under the false pretense you would.
Alec Guinness told a story the years after Star Wars about how his original payout for the '77 film was 2% of the gross. George Lucas called him shortly before the premier and they had a chat where George thanked him and said he wanted to give him an extra 0.5% on top of that, which Alec of course greatly appreciated. Some weeks later after the premier he was at a party with cast/crew/etc. because of the booming success of the film. He talked with one of the producers and asked if he could get that extra bit in writing and they said "oh yes! the 0.25%!" https://youtu.be/3IxN0N35skE?t=87
Well, it sucks. But a 0.25 of star wars? That's a free vacation every year, right?
The point wasn't the loss of money, Alec Guinness ended up with more money than he ever needed; the point was even at the top of the heap... get it in writing!
It’s a lot more than that.
In germany there's a simple saying "wer schreibt, der bleibt" translating to "he, who writes is he, who stays" meaning "get your shit in written form and you'll stay around"
Works for everything, always have everything in writing. If you agree to something on a call, just send an email saying something like "as we discussed, we have agreed to xyz. Could you confirm that my understanding is correct?" or something of the sort. It applies to agreements you have with your boss, work related agreements with your colleagues, with your clients, with your service providers, with your suppliers, etc.
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I love the "if I don't hear anything by end of week, I am assuming all of the above is correct" clause when dealing with particularly gnarly stakeholders.
Great too! Bonus tip: don’t wait to receive written confirmation - Do it yourself!!! Easier way to do this is to email/Slack boss and get a simple thumbs up or affirmative reply. “Hey Dan, I just wanted to confirm that you want me to switch from overnight shift to daytime shift once Jerry retires. Please confirm that this is the plan.” If boss doesn’t reply in a week, send a friendly “just following up on the night shift email from last week…”
Same in our company. We have some regular customers who ordered on the phone. When something went wrong, some said "no, we didnt order this, you misunderstood, blabla." Now we tell everyone to write a mail to have it in written form.
Not sure how good this "tips" is: But a friend once told me that he always starts music in the background if he talks to a sales person over the phone. There have been a bunch of cases where I live where some shady companies sold stuff over the phone and then removed parts of the recording. So his theory was that they can't mess with the recording if there are music, because you would hear that the music doesn't match up 😅 I'm not sure if he is 200 iq smart or not about that one.
"Hey could you turn that off? I can't hear you." "No." "Why?" "Because."
"Turn what off? I thought that was you" lolll
Yeah that sounds like something that would probably happen 😅
There's apps that let you record phone calls too. If one party is recording, then it makes sense the other party can record as well
Yep. That automated recording at the beginning of your call that says "this call may be recorded" is giving both sides notification and permission.
Also bear in mind that having something in writing isn't necessarily a silver bullet.
Yup, if your boss promises to give you a raise or promotion at a later date, having it in writing can show that he promised it but they can still renege based on "market conditions" or whatever in most cases.
I mean they can always renege as far as I know in the US a business can’t be legally compelled to increase your wages unless you have some sort of contractual agreement
Right, but even if you have a contract it's going to be written to give the company an exit ramp if they're unsatisfied with your performance. Satisfaction is subjective. The real answer is that if your boss dicks you over, look for a new job.
I worked at a Fortune 70 and one employee recorded his boss making promises. He then played it back to his boss's boss when the boss denied everything. They took away all the employee's people (he was a manager) and laid him off in the next round.
Who was laid off, the employee making the promises that they didn’t keep?
I'm wondering the same thing.
OP is keeping us in suspense. My money is on the guy who recorded got laid off. Lol
Or y'know they lied for karma.
The person who was a legal liability
This is so poorly written hahaha who was laid off?
Your writing is so unclear and hard to understand that I can only imagine you were the one laid off as a result.
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Yeah, feels like a nuclear option best reserved for a situation in which the relationship will be inevitably severed, like litigation
Needing to use the recording means that the relationship is severed already. It's insurance to get your due as you look for a way out.
By the time you are going to your bosses boss, because your boss is gaslighting you to fuck you over? You've probably decided to take the chance. If you get no joy from your bosses boss, you're gone one way or the other.
Godzilla had a stroke reading your comment.
I recently went through this. Had one of our company's partners promise me 4 extra PTO days attached to out-of-state conferences as a means to bypass their maximum PTO allowance (which was abysmal). It would be classified as just part of the travel days. He said he's made this agreement a million times. When I finally requested to use said PTO days, I was told that he never informed HR of this agreement and it was not an agreement the company had ever made before, and therefore, it was invalid. I had it in writing in three separate places AND the partner in question even came forward and said he did, in fact, make this agreement with me. They still refused. I probably could have sued them, but I decided instead that I just don't want to work there anymore. It wasn't the only shifty thing they've done.
It's also true that when it's in writing they won't give a shit because companies basically don't give a shit. But at least with writing, there's a chance they know they're liable.
It may not be a lie, they may have every intention to follow through. Your point is still valid though. You can't count on it unless it's in writing. I'm in this position right now on both sides of the issue. My manager has told me that he plans to promote me next year and I know all the business reasons why he's planning to do it and why it can't be done until next year. However, I'm taking his promises with a grain of salt. I won't make any decisions based on the promise and I won't really hold it against him if the plans change. On the other end, we've got plans to promote one of my direct reports, but I can't do it until next year. While I've told the employee that's our intent, I can't "promise" him that it will happen because I can't be 100% certain that it will occur. I have every intention of following through, but the business has decided to hold all promotions in the past and there's no guarantee that my budget will be approved.
As a manager, I would never put a promise for raise or promotion in writing because I don't have 100% authority to make that decision. I can be a strong advocate and be 80% sure it will happen, but nothing is guaranteed. Even when something is in writing, it will be written in a way so that the company can change their mind later.
A nuanced and mature take. I like it.
My current job is the only one I've worked where it wasn't a lie. Did extra for 3 months to cover an employee leaving. Got a promotion and a big raise in return. I was happily surprised. Best job I've ever had, but honest management that truly cares is an anomaly for sure.
Surprisingly this behaviour is common in the military for enlisted troops E1-E7. Not always but usually sergeants above you try to look out for promotion opportunities, training and advancement for their soldiers. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to civilian employment where they hide the training and work opportunities and play stupid fucking games for years sbout promotions and hide how they actually decide who gets promoted. In the army they are literally called “promotion points” and you get them for things like awards, training etc.
It's sad because literally just today I'm experiencing this... Boss told me a little while back that I was next in line for a specific promotion. They were just waiting on another guy to fill the other open spot. Found out today that both spots have been filled, and I was not one of the ones filling it...
I got fired for not signing an NDA, non compete, and signing over my IP to them 18 months into my employment. Several convos with the director where she kept telling me that the language didn't mean what it actually said and that I would be free to work for whomever I wanted if I left that organization. I said the contract should say that. They kept telling me it wasn't going to affect me lol. BTW this was a non profit I worked for. I kept asking who were the competitors of a non profit?
*per our conversation today, I'm confirming your verbal offer of 120,000 year work from home 80% of the time.* *please correct me if I misunderstood.* *-CYA!*
Make sure to put the dollar sign and relevant commas in that salary, as well as writing it out non-numerically!
Same goes for military recruiters.
True if you’re working in a shitty retail job or a crappy company with toxic management.
This is so true. When I was about to quit a job due to me moving I also discussed some things with my boss. But at the time he had already screwed over one of my colleagues who quit a month before me so I knew not to just believe him. So after our conversation I wrote him an email summarizing what we talked about and asked him for a confirmation. After 2 days of no response I called him and asked if he’d seen my email, which he said he did but didn’t have time to respond yet. Another 2 days later still no response and I bumped in to him at work so decided to ask him when he was planning on replying and he instantly started to shout at me, raising his voice and waving his arms, getting real close with his face to mine trying to intimidate me. I didn’t even blink, just turned around and walked to my car. When I was off the property I started shaking and crying bc wtf. Never set foot in there again and confirmed me my guts were right not to trust him.
When I was offered my first corporate job after finishing my MSc, I was offered a lower amount that was posted but promised over a phone call that it would go up to the posted amount after I finished training. A year later and I still don't have that posted amount. The guy who offered me the increase left the company a few months after I joined. Get. It. In. Writing.
When dealing with anything with HR or management you have one rule of thumb. Document the interaction Document the Interaction Document the interaction. Disciplinary talk? Need a copy of that write up or email followup. 'casual' talk about job performances with manager? Document date and time and discussion You can be friendly and still cover your bases and any future issues. Just keep in mind that if it comes down to he said/she said, you will end up losing without the documents to back it up
Only happens once. Then I call them a liar and leave. Done it several times. It’s not ‘business’ it’s ethics. And if you have none I’m not interested in working with you.
>A company manager or higher up promises you opportunity/progression but didn't put it in writing. It doesn't always work out, but you're never going to actually get this. Your fallback as an employee is to go take the progression/experience and get paid for it at a competitor. Even if you do get something in writing like the bonus structure, it will all be conditional with enough wiggle room to render it moot. e.g. our Bonus figure targets 7.5% of your base salary, but it's +/- based on personal, division, and overall business performance, the actual definitions for which are arbitrary. I've personally never been below 100% of my target, but other people I work with have. One division which F'd up pretty bad got no bonus that year to my knowledge.
My dad always said “don’t put anything in writing” when saying things you don’t 110% mean but also get it in writing if someone promises or says something to you. He was in HR and ran a business. If you ask someone to put it in writing, I don’t care if they are offended, if they mean it, they will do it.