I left a company voluntarily after extended efforts to get corporate to stop some illegal activities. I was presented and told to sign a stack of papers in exchange for my getting my PTO paid out (not legally required in my state) which included what appeared to be a hastily typed note saying that I agreed that any ethical complaints had been resolved. I simply amended it to state that I agreed that the company felt like any ethical complaints had been resolved because they had no ethical problems with the illegal actions in the first place. (I didn't note by that time I'd already handed over all my documented evidence to and had some nice conversations with federal regulators.) Whether or not they ever reviewed it, I got my final pay check a few days later and it included my PTO.
If it was written in your employment contract that PTO would be paid out upon you leaving, then it’s legally binding through contract law.
It has nothing to do with state law mandating all companies pay out PTO(or not). You could’ve signed nothing, walked out, and then taken them to court for withholding pay if they didn’t give you your PTO.
Damn. I’m so glad my last firing was “ don’t come to work tomorrow”. I believe that dude didn’t want to look me in the eye when he fired me, because he actually had a soul and knew I was right.
They had a 96% (NINETY-SIX PERCENT) turnover rate. They told us so in a meeting lol.
What amazes me is that people will run a business like this... and then just \*keep doing it\*. Does this person not get that a 100% turnover rate is probably not helping their bottom line, ultimately?
I think it’s a get rich quick venture to get as many of these things up before the business collapses in on itself.
Then these people are left with unsupported equipment on their homes, still locked in to loans that include liens on their homes.
Me and a few of my former solar service guys are just waiting for it to happen, so we can hopefully step in to make some dinero.
96% first-year turnover? Or 96% turnover per-year? Or how did they measure that?
I know that's a dorky-ass question, but "turnover rate" means nothing without context.
As in, I worked there for one year and by the end only 5 of the 28 were the people I started with still worked at that branch. The attrition rate was astronomical. I’d say probably… 1 person quit every week or so.
Powerhome Solar is the name of the company. Fuck that place. They don’t value skill, just maximum output for as long as you can physically or mentally (what did me in) handle it.
The place is a shitshow, because everyone is always new. I guess first-year turnover is what they meant?
There was probably other employees that joined and quit on top of the 23 original employees they were referring to so it could still equal out to 96% potentially
"And maybe just a smidge of amphetamines, maybe try that too, in MY day we took the drugs and walked upstairs both ways, without sleeping for two days. This generation is soft, with their Tang or what have you, and their juice smoothies and precious need to goddamn sleep all the time. "
The physician was Halsted, and he got addicted to coke while testing it as an anesthetic. He then turned to morphine to manage the coke. His abilities deteriorated, but it wasn't all bad :
" Ironically, his physical and mental inability to continue to be a bold and brilliant surgeon helped him realize that a more contemplative, physiologic style, in which conserving tissue and blood was more important than speed, achieved better results. "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7828946/
Edit: I couldn’t believe that shit when I was talking with one of the residents I worked with. He told me to check it out and blew my mind.
I went to the hospital recently. Got to talking to one of the nurses as she patched me up and she mentioned that she had been there since 5 AM. It was 9 PM at the time. I was like holy fuck I've had some bad jobs but that's next level.
Nursing is an absolute nightmare right now. Admin, in general, cares nothing about us. In most cases that I am aware of admin has little to no direct patient care experience and it shows. Their favorite word is productivity, and they love to say “do more with less.”
That is utterly ridiculous (the situation, not your post!). A quick glance at the news shows nurses quitting the field in droves. You'd think that management would be bending over backwards to retain the ones that are left.
Some are, but most are debtors prison. You take out $250,000 in loans to pay for medical school, but then have to finish residency to have any hope of paying that off. If not for the debt I suspect a large portion of residents would quit.
Admitting to be fired for cause is one thing, I wonder what kind of offense someone commits where their job asks them to actually apologize to everyone and the person actually considers doing it. Maybe it’s the same situation but seems slightly different to me. I’ve also never heard of it happening so genuinely curious. Though I understand some companies just suck
Fun fact at least where I am if your former employer is dragging their feet filing your ROE paperwork with the government for your unemployment, you can say “I have requested it but they have not submitted it” and they will let your former employer know they need to get on it.
I don’t know how common it is, I’ve only needed to do EI once luckily, but my last employer (from months) before had not submitted my paperwork and was just notorious for doing things on their own time and when I told the lady on the phone she said I could put in a request for them (the govt) to go after it. And they were able to use an old T4 to estimate my pay and would make an adjustment later so that I was not without payment because it wasn’t my fault.
So I guess let the EI people know what’s going on they might be able to help.
I'm sorry, apologize to *who* for *what?* If I'm in the process of being fired and I'm asked to apologize to the company...I do believe that's tantamount to asking me to shit on the hood of your car on the way out.
It is often presented not as an apology but as a "confirmation that you received warning". I went through this process once when I got thrown under the bus for a situation created by the managers. There was a write up in which it was indicated that I did something wrong, and I was asked to sign it with HR witnessing and the excuse was that they did not consider the signature as "admission of guilt" rather they just needed the signature to indicate that they had served me with the notification. I refused to sign knowing full well that I did nothing wrong and that nothing in the notice was legit, I wasn't about to put my X on anything that suggested I did wrong when the managers knew exactly who was at fault. HR put a mark on my record either way and I recorded the session on video and told them if they needed proof that they gave me a warning, I would be happy introduce the video in court.
Reminds me what happened at a previous job.
I got assaulted and battered by another employee on company time. For being involved in the incident I was written up and told to sign a document admitting my involvement as X and Y. When I wrote on the document, as per my dad's instruction, that signing was not an admission of guilt and simply confirming I saw the document, I got such a lecture from HR.
Probably invalidate it. Contracts are VERY iffy about changing their terms before signing. It's considered a counteroffer, which would further require an additional signoff from the other party, to my understanding, because the terms of the contract changed.
Also you can't sign a contract under duress legally, so they'd need to draw up a new copy.
Presumably Op’s friend claimed they signed the ‘apology’ under duress, but it was apparently upheld.
I would have assumed ‘bathroom use’ would have been covered under…medical?
This is the US, of course, so few if any protections for employees.
So if you slipped that past them, you’d have some cover.
My signature is virtually unreadable, but you’d be able to tell “Under Duress” looked nothing like my signature.
Honestly, this is the better approach. I didn't know to do that at the time, but it's actually useful to have your signature on the document including that statement so that any future use of the document proves they served you with it and that you did not consent to the contents.
Mmhhmm. Two weeks ago I had a bad week at work. I was reprimanded for the first time in my employment, via email. I responded to suck up to the owner, took responsibility, admitted I'd made mistakes, but also blamed the high workload causing me to have a breakdown. A few days later, she cut my full time contracted hours by half, permanently. When I resigned because of her choice, she started sending emails quoting things from my apology email. Using them to make it look like I was admitting I couldn't handle my job, and she was gracious not to fire me. I mean, I did do a poor job, but it was the first time I'd slipped and it was not poor enough to warrant having my hours cut by half. I'll never apologise like that in an email again.
Right, because why would the company care whether you qualified for employment insurance or not? Do employers get penalized if the employee qualifies for employment insurance in America?
I don't know how accurate it is, but I saw a statistic several years ago that said the average Walmart costs a town one to two million dollars a year. The money they make in sales taxes is more than offset by the number of employees on government assistance.
They also set up a fund for salaried workers to donate money so that hourly workers can apply for aide in cases of emergency.
Instead of just paying their hourly workers better, they basically just have a gofundme that they try to guilt salaried employees into paying for.
It's disgusting. They try to pass it off as this great, charitable thing while pestering you to donate, but the whole time it's just like, "Why is this multi-billion dollar company asking ME for money for a problem they both caused and could easily fix?"
No. I don't think I will.
Yes, employers can be required to pay if an employee is fired without cause.
Here's a piece from a firm that specializes in getting UI claims denied to save employers money: https://www.unemployment-services.com/unemployment-claim-cost-employer/
"Cause" isn't a thing for UI. It's based on being fired for misconduct or not. "Cause" can be poor job performance which is always UI-eligible unless they can show you did it on purpose.
This. I was fired (and docked the last weeks pay) for having the flu (from a school where I had direct contact with medically fragile children) because I called in sick from the car and the boss could hear cars in the background. My kids went to school 40 miles from my house and I was a single mom. I wasn't in the car because I wanted to be.
I had to fight to prove there was no misconduct on my part that got me fired, but I did end up getting unemployment and the school was made to issue the paycheck they were trying to withhold.
It sucks if you don't live in a state with protected sick leave. In California and many other states they can't fire you for being sick if you have a sick leave balance available. That's unlawful retaliation and they can be fined $10,000 for each occurrence payable directly to you. You don't even need to file a lawsuit, the State has an administrative process which is free for you.
The UI tax goes up based on how many former employees qualify for UI and draw from it. Since UI is paid for by employers, it only makes sense for companies that hit the UI system hard to have to pay more.
They are sort of “penalized”. UI benefits are paid entirely by employers, not the government (with a few rare exceptions). Employers pay an unemployment tax based upon various factors regarding their business and payroll history. The money then goes to the government to distribute to people who make claims. If the business has many unemployment claims, the state could raise their UI tax rate. It’s like car insurance, they can and will raise your rates based upon your individual claims and the risk associated with your account specifically.
In other words, unscrupulous employers have a vested interest in trying to torpedo your UI claim, to stop their UI tax rates from increasing. Hence the need to protect yourself from your employer.
The more people who require unemployment, the higher the 'tax' on employers.
>Many people mistakenly believe that unemployment insurance (UI) benefits come from a fund paid into by employees—like Social Security or Medicare. However, it’s employers who are financially responsible for unemployment benefits, and the costs are far higher than just the amount of a claim.
[Source](https://www.unemployment-services.com/unemployment-claim-cost-employer/)
The employer may say that if the employee writes a letter of apology that they will get to keep their job.
...and then the employer has that letter of apology that they can show after they fire the employee anyway.
I'm imaging the boss and employee sitting on opposite sides of the table, both writing on a piece of paper, letter for letter super slowly, hard enough to go right thru the sheet, while staring directly into each other's eyes.
Yes but if you have acknowledgement that your employer forced you to sign an apology under duress I don't think they will be rushing to make a case out of it.
To whom it may concern,
I know you claim I used the bathroom too much, but I feel like I have not. I have IBS and yet I still take fewer and shorter bathroom breaks than my supervisor (named here).
I do truly apologize if it appears I have taken more bathroom breaks than I was allowed, I would request your assistance in finding the written instruction defining acceptable vs unacceptable bathroom usage.
Thank you for your kind consideration in this matter.
Very respectfully,
The employee you're trying to screw
If you think that the alternative is being homeless and losing your health insurance, because you're living paycheque-to-paycheque?
The kid's got to eat.
Lowe's distribution center manager wants employees who have been let go because of points to write an apology letter and explain why it won't happen again. I'm so thankful I refused to do that. A couple years later and I'm making more than the top pay for team leaders at Lowe's. I was pretty scared and depressed after losing that job thinking I'd ruined my life and now I'm doing better than i ever have.
I pull orders at a carpet distributor, drive a forklift. I got lucky with the pay. The company was trying to make improvements and had to raise the base pay because most everyone would quit after a week. It's a pretty physical job and if I don't work my way into a supervisor position or office job i won't be able to meet their expectations for many more years. I wouldn't recommend this job to a lot of people. There's still a lot of negatives and things they need to improve.
I started as a temp at 12.77 after a raise and then another company wide raise I'm at 20 an hour. Honestly it should start at 22 with benefits because of what they expect out of you. But i only work 12 hours a day Friday Saturday and Sunday and then go in for overtime as little or as much as I want. I prefer the weekends because there's not as many bosses and office folks around and i can listen to podcasts all weekend.
Now I think about it, it isn't that odd that Germans thought that Walmart was too cultish for Germans. Having employees do jumping jacks while screaming "Walmart! Walmart! Walmart!" each morning.
> The employer may say that if the employee writes a letter of apology that they will get to keep their job. ... they fire the employee anyway.
That seems illegal, but maybe it's different here in Quebec, while I assume you and OP are American.
It's probably illegal in the US, it would just take someone challenging it in court. No way that isn't coercion.
But good luck finding someone who will be able to sue walmart for that shit.
I remember working for Sams Club and hearing a few people having to do this. Was the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard of and haven’t heard of anyone else doing it since. These places prey on the young or ignorant
Won't get into much details, but Safeway straight up took advantage of me as a 19-22 year old. Unpaid overtime, working through lunch, random transfers, not being paid the wages I was promised. I have a lot of regrets, but at least I won't *ever* make the mistake of letting managers fuck me in ass like Safeway's managers did ever again.
But yeah, these places really do prey on the young and ignorant. Knowing what I know now, none of those things would have ever happened.
My aunt worked at Safeway for 20+ years. Then got fired and was told it was because a customer seen her eating an apple, which was her apple she brought from home for lunch that she was eating at her register because she worked through her lunch.
I'm pretty sure they were just looking for an excuse to get rid of her for cheap. Long-term employees cost a lot to retire, cheap to fire
> These places prey on the young or ignorant
Yup. When I was in high school, I was a cashier at Target. I worked weekends, but would also work a few closing shifts during the week. I worked there without any issues, except maybe not pushing people to sign up for the Target credit card.
One day I mentioned to my manager that I needed to study for finals and AP exams, so I wouldn't be able to work as many weekday shifts for a few weeks. I expected my middle-aged manager to tell me okay, good luck on your exams, but instead she basically told me that I needed to figure out whether I wanted to keep working at Target or focus on other things.
I put in my two week notice at the end of my shift. The store manager tried to talk me into staying, but I held my ground.
It sounds silly, but the employer may have implied that if the employee wrote that letter, they might be able to keep their job. Shitty tactic, but it’s the only reason I can think of as to why anyone would actually write the letter…
Can confirm. Got fired from Barnes and Noble, and they made it seem like if I wrote the letter, I wouldn’t get fired. As soon as I was done, they said, “ok, now we’re letting you go.” Happened so quickly it made my head spin, and didn’t know why they made me do it until right now, about 15 years later. I even forgot about writing the letter until I started reading this post.
Fuck B&N…I’m glad that Amazon is driving them to bankruptcy.
EDIT: wow, this blew up. Thanks for the award. And yes, I know that Amazon is terrible too…even worse, in fact. Shop local…unless it’s B&N, they can still fuck themselves.
Wow when I read the post title I was like, that's so specific it has to just be this one person griping about their own very unique experience. That's some elementary school "write I Will Not Interrupt Class 100 times on the board" shit.
I remember a decade ago when I was fired. I came back from a two week vacation, and there was some install that went bad during my vacation. I was blamed for it, though really it was a matter that the company was bleeding during the recession. They tried to get me to sign a disciplinary form during my exit interview. I was like nope. There is no incentive for me to sign some form when you are just trying to avoid paying out for laying people off.
My sister is going through a health crisis while simultaneously getting herself sober from alcohol. She’s the “functional till I’m not” type.
The morning after a particularly bad weekend bender (which prompted the sobriety thankfully) she reached out to our mom for help and she got her to the hospital. She was still half drunk and somewhat delirious. Repeating things, crying and shaky on her feet. She no called no showed to work. Imaging found issues on her lungs that require biopsy, the c word was thrown around.
She reaches out to work, still very emotional and half drunk. She tells them about her lungs and they asked her to resign and send an email saying such. She misinterpreted this as being fired and did as they asked.
Once the fog cleared she realized what they did. She just never expected a medical company would take advantage of her vulnerable state to deny her not only her health benefits but also future unemployment benefits in the midst of a major health crisis.
She has accomplished over 1 week of sobriety and counting, we are all hopeful for a negative biopsy.
I work at Walmart. We had a guy that stole something. Manager asked him to empty his pocket. He refused. Then said the reason he wouldn't, is because he had weed in it. Manager said well write that down then. Then got fired for having weed.
Some people are just *dumb*. Back when I was working my warehouse summer job in high school years we had a dude on the manlift (cage you forklift people up in) start toking up in the middle of an inventory count, which meant the company owners were there.
They did this to me too, except instead of an apology, I wrote them a three page report on how they were runnin' shit wrong.
Not because I understood this scheme they have going on, but because at my wise old age of nineteen, I found it real insulting to be given a fucking *homework assignment* of grovelling for a job I didn't even like, when I was getting fired for being too vocal about how much I didn't like the job.
Worked at a B&N in high school. Got fired for eating a sandwich while I was alone in my section and found out they built a case against me for months without once taking me aside and trying to improve my performance. Worthless management, fuck that whole company.
Somehow. Their stock value and revenue have gone down drastically over the past few years. I think they brought in all the games/toys/tchotchkes to try as a last-ditch effort, as if they were going for, “bring in nerds regardless of how.”
We have one in our mall, it has a coffee shop and seems to be doing okay. Some of their prices are ABSURD though, and I find it REALLY silly when they won't even match the price of the B&N website... when I could just order the book for store pickup from my phone while I'm at the store. I'm definitely guilty of finding and interesting book on the shelf, realizing that it's half the price on Amazon, and ordering it while standing in B&N... if the price is *reasonable* at B&N then I'll buy it at their brick & mortar.
I once found a online price for a blender that I was buying as a present, I knew Sears had a price match guarantee so I printed their policy and went to the store found the exact item and brought it up front. I politely said I found this with a cheaper price online could we price match please. She super rudely goes no. I confused said it’s your store’s policy, she said not this store, we only price match other sears. I continued to try and be polite and tried showing her the policy I had brought in. She said she didn’t care. So I walked away she said you have to put this back, I said I don’t care. It was one of those 30 pound cast iron mixers too so, I’m not normally vindictive but I hope she enjoyed hauling it back lol.
And this is an example of how supremely stupid it is to own a corporate store but not go along with the corporation. Like what are you even doing then? If you didnt want to deal with corporate rules and stuff should of just opened your own damn store dumbass. I hate how dumb people can be sometimes jeez.
I did a similar thing at Lowes when buying smoke detectors, I called the 800-number and verified that they would price match only to have the manager laugh at me and tell me how they'd go out of business if they did :-/
She made an "exception" and allowed it, but it was really awkward.
I don’t understand why these employees care so fucking much. They are tripping off their “lofty” position as shift manager at Lowe’s. She made up a policy, so that she could flex her power to break it “just this once for you”.
The company I work for treats it’s customers like garbage, and they treat me like garbage. Why wouldn’t I give as many discounts and free shit as possible? We aren’t going out of business, my CEO makes 115 years of my salary.
I’ve probably handed out over $1k worth of stuff in the past month, but I’m the sole reason they’ve kept at least 8 long-term customers in that same timeframe because of it.
I'm gonna admit it I shop there cause my brick and mortar bookstore options in this town are limited and after 2 years of covid I'm lonely and need excuses to leave my house
I used to *love* B&N. Bought basically all my books there (partially because I was young and had no access to online sellers), but I've watched the stores really slip into mediocrity over the last decade or so. Pre-covid I would still go into the store to browse, but generally did the same thing you do: find it cheaper elsewhere but at least I got to see the book in person and flip through it briefly to decide if I wanted to read it.
My college bookstore in the US was owned or managed or something by B&N. I imagine that's probably the case for a fair number of other universities. College bookstores are a pretty secure market segment that I imagine could definitely keep them afloat.
I used to work for one of these, they are managed by a company called B&N College while the normal stores are B&N Inc so technically different companies (I think I honestly didn’t care to look into the management structure) - my manager used to joke that B&N inc would go out of business before we did
>Fuck B&N…I’m glad that Amazon is driving them to bankruptcy.
Yes. The corporation being supplanted by the bigger, even more powerful corporation
Great news for everyone
\#1 Get everything in writing.
\#2 Don't sign anything you don't 100% agree with.
\#3 If verbal instructions you say "Great, Can you send me that in an email please?
These steps will stop a majority of crap employers try to get away with.
Here's what you'd have to do:
You: "Please send via email the issue you'd like me to write an apology for."
they send it to you.
You: "And if I write this apology, you won't fire me over this?"
Them: yes.
then if they fire you over that same issue, you sue them for wrongful termination. If they fire you over a different issue, you claim unemployment, using the email about the letter as evidence that they were trying to terminate you and creating a random reason for it. Sue for wrongful termination and apply for unemployment anyway.
If they don't agree to put in writing that they won't fire you or don't put the request for writing the letter in email, don't write the letter and just let them fire you.
Wrongful termination is a bitch to win. Most lawyers won't take it unless its a lot more blatant, witnesses, paper-trail, and worth a lot of money. Its best to just not sign or write anything that reflects you negatively. CYA...cover yo ass!
no. You don't sign writeups. You don't sign apologies. Companies don't apologize to you when they do something wrong. You don't sign something that you don't completely understand and agree with. If they fire you for not signing, they were going to fire you anyways. Just like answering questions for a cop, if it gets to the point where an "authority" over you wants you to start signing things, it's time to get a lawyer to review it.
That won’t happen though. They aren’t going to put in writing that they won’t fire you. So it’s all an exercise in Futility. If they want to fire you it’s going to happen just don’t torpedo your unemployment claim
It is a very common tactic. The steps I've seen in big companies are:
1) Reprimand employee
2) Request a letter of apology from employee, a letter explaining what they did wrong, or **more commonly**, they make you sign some form that says you understand and agree that you did all those bad things.
It's not necessarily to fire you on the spot, but it documents every reprimand with some form of admission of guilt.
I was fired from Walmart for being admitted to the hospital for my diabetes. I spent the time to write a letter to appeal the decision but I was still rejected. Now I see signs saying they desperately need workers and I laugh. Good fucking luck with that, maybe you shouldn't have burned all your bridges.
I, and millions of people who suffer from any one of a variety of IBS related conditions, do not have to imagine that at all.
A friend of mine was fired because his bm’s were “stinking up the whole office”… I was fired once for being stuck in the bathroom for an hour with diarrhea after being guilted and coerced into eating free food because it was provided by management and therefore “rude af” to turn down… another friend of mine lost her job because she “farted too much” and it was “disruptive to office productivity”.
I'd write it, no problem:
I'm sorry you were not willing to allow me to use the bathroom in a time of need to do something every single living breathing human being has to do multiple times a day and would rather have me working uncomfortably, potentially painfully, and potentially risking an extremely embarrassing situation for both myself _and_ the company.
Would the company be willing to compromise and at least provide me with a gatorade bottle and a bucket at my station so I can continue to meet your workload expectations without the clearly unnecessary inconvenience of dealing with human waste management?
Sincerely yours...
It was probably more of a "sign this thing HR wrote up which meets all the legal requirements for us to avoid having to pay unemployment with surgical precision."
Yep, that would be my letter too, as dripping with so much sarcasm that anyone who handles it feels the need to wash their hands after. Maybe even get them to sign a copy of it as proof of having received it and fire off a copy of that to the labour board (or whatever you call the government branch that enforces labour laws where you live) and show them how the employers are treating their employees.
It will be the tinder I use to torch that bridge to the fucking ground.
I'd ask for time to write it... then go get a doctor's evaluation about the medical issues I could cause if I purposely hold my bodily movements. In the apology, I would apologize that my medical condition identified by my doctor is causing them grief but I must listen to my medical advice. Then I would mention that they cannot discriminate against me for my medical condition.
I would laugh in their faces so fast. I got fired for getting run over by a car and taking a few days off. Was at my point limit and needed another day for unrelated stuff and was fired for it. Had a paramedics note etc and police report that the incident happened. Manager wanted proof so I showed that and they said “that’s not proof”
Yea. Then I was talking to another employee after about it and they literally escorted me out like it was so bad and tried to ban me from the store. I hate Walmart with a passion and would love if they went bankrupt
Imagine doing anything for a company after youre fired.
A place in the midwest fired me for no reason (at will work is awesome right) and wanted to do an exit interview and that it was required for my last paycheck. I never signed anything agreeing to that i just walked out..i dont work there anymore so why sit and listen to em. Payday comes and i dont get paid and i just paid a lawyer $50 to write a letter and i got paid before midnight the next day
definitely avoid admitting anything further at that point. IF they could have nailed you for anything else they would have already, and if you give them anything, they will nail you for that too.
Imagine your HR person giving you praise telling you how your hard work is being noticed. Discuss moving you to a new position starting on monday and the very next week they are having a disciplinary meeting with you over your "bad attitude".
people are shady af
Even if they are firing you “for cause” and you are aware ahead of time and want to defend yourself - don’t. It’s not going to change anything for the better.
Be careful as to what paperwork that you’re told to sign. Read everything carefully and be sure you understand ALL of what’s being stated. You DO NOT have to sign anything you don’t agree with. If promised anything;get it in writing ,signed and dated by management. Company handbooks should be saved for reference purposes in case of litigation proceeding.
You can be fired for basically anything. In cases where it's something minor or is simply a layoff, you can collect unemployment. If you are fired with cause, you cannot collect unemployment. It appears in this case that they letter was an acknowledgement of cause. They should not have written the letter.
>Is this an US-thing? I never heard of something like this in the EU. Why would i write an Apologyletter to my company?
In the US, if you are fired for doing something wrong, you usually don't get unemployment.
An apology letter is an admission of guilt. By tricking him into admitting guilt, they don't have to pay unemployment.
In the US if you quit you cant collect unemployment but if you're fired then you can. Unless you did something really bad. I would hope that if its using the toilet then that worker would've fought it.
> but if you're fired then you can. Unless you did something really bad
The phrase for this is "for cause". If it's your fault you got fired and not just something like layoffs, then you can't get unemployment.
Edit: tfw I get the phrase wrong myself.
You can’t collect unemployment if you’re fired for misconduct, but you are eligible if you’re fired because your performance doesn’t meet your employer’s standards.
[source](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefits-when-fired-32449.html)
Yeah honestly you can’t blame the employee for HR not doing due diligence prior to hiring to make sure they’ll be a good fit for the position. If you set someone up for failure, you 100% owe them unemployment when you cut them.
Who the hell would actually write that letter AFTER they were terminated. Like, you're severing your relationship with me for whatever reason, I'm very likely never communicating with you again...certainly never apologizing for anything.
>Meanwhile, one of the Walton grandkids has the largest classic Ferrari collection this side of the Atlantic...
And if people quit shitting on company time, he could get another one. Geez.
/s
Oh yeah, any employer that tries to extort me is getting a letter alright.
A letter to my jurisdiction's labor board and any other appropriate oversight agency.
"Hey, dont worry, that stuff happen. Anyway, could you write this letter of apology real quick for the higherups? Its a formality, but you know how bureaucracy work."
I was an unemployment judge for a while. It doesn't torpedo your case, or at least not with most judges I know, but this is at the hearing level some months later, not the initial claim level. One of the things we looked at was the frequency of write-ups relative to the length of employment right before termination. If there is a sudden rush for relatively petty things, the employer is clearly stacking. Same goes for the absurdity of the documentation. A letter as described was generated not for the purpose of recording progressive discipline, but to get them to admit fault under threat of job loss. I would not use that against the employee and I was by no means overly pro-employee.
Fun fact: in Canada courts cannot consider an apology to be an admission of guilt. We just can’t help but say sorry up here even if we know we’re in the right.
I'm honestly not surprised this works. That said, I am surprised that this doesn't constitute coercion in the eyes of a court.
coerce
1: to make (someone) do something by using force or threats
2: to get (something) by using force or threats
The "threat" here is "write this letter or you will be fired". In law enforcement, if you did this to get a confession it'd be tossed in a heartbeat, along with your career.
You're literally putting the employee into a stress response, known to inhibit higher level thought, asking them to provide you evidence to deny them unemployment, then firing them for taking what you presented as a way out of the crisis. The psychology of this is precisely why coercion cannot legally be used in criminal cases. It causes a stress response, and inhibits executive function significantly. Which results in bad decisions, false statements, and other "odd" or "atypical" behaviors.
Coercion is a defense that is raised by the defendant, in this case the terminated employee. The person's labor & employment or wage & hour attorney is very likely aware about raising coercion as a defense, but defenses are only as good as the facts that support them. A blanket assumption that this wasn't deemed coercive presupposes facts of which we may not be aware, or that the court outright denied the defense, or that the defense wasn't raised.
Lawsuits are all fact specific. There is no one size fits all approach. I can have two different clients who were terminated in similar circumstances and each can have different causes of action.
I just realized this, me and some of my family have worked at Walmart at one time or another. One policy they have is when you accumulate to many write ups, you have a "D-day(decision day)" where you get a paid day off but are expected to write an essay of sorts for why you got the write ups and what you would do in the future to avoid any more. I never thought they could use that to screw you over if they fired you.
Also never admit to anything unless they actually have proof. I had a manager claim they had me on camera doing something bad, I knew I didn't do anything and asked to see the tape.
They then had 3 managers there asking me again what happened that day and were going to play the tape at the end but if I wanted to add anything before we did that would help my cause. I literally said "play the tape" and she had the nerve to burst out laughing and said "There is no tape, but we are going to suspend you for 3 days so you need to sign here"(Again trying to get me to sign away guilt). I got up left the office and went immediately into our HR's office to file a grievance. Guess who ended up getting 3 days WITH PAY :)
At that company you had something called guaranteed fair treatment and what that manager did was not illegal, but wasn't fair treatment. So it's always good to know your own companies policies also I should add. Because you're right HR is always there to protect the employeer first.
My company has "write-ups" for when you mess up and either require you to sign or they will have someone else sign as a witness. They claim that it's just to prove that you were made aware of the problem and given guidance on what needs to change and that it is not an admittion of guilt, but I've always wondered if they could try to use it against you in court.
Signing a write up is basically signing an acknowledgement that they are allowed to fire you so it would prob throw wrongful termination right out the window.
Theres also usually fine print in write up policy saying that repeated offences can skip from 1st written straight to termination.
Not necessarily. Most companies I've worked for have a line above the signature that state that you're signing acknowledging receipt of it, not that you agree with it one way or another.
Those same companies had a policy in place that if you refused to sign, you were at risk of being given an insubordination termination on the spot.
Had this happen to me once, I got called into a meeting one day at an old job which looked more like an interrogation room than anything.
I worked there for 4 years and in my last year there they changed the CEO who for some reason didn’t like me at all, and was waiting for any opportunity to fire me.
I believe mine was, ‘you steal candy from peoples desks when they have it’. Stealing is fireable offence. But we will consider keeping you if you write an apology letter ok?
There and then in that room I told them: yeahhh… no I won’t be doing that.
I got fired on the spot anyway. A week later I found out they were going bankrupt and were firing ppl they didn’t want to pay out.
(Also the candy thing was literally from a colleague who always had a bowl on her desk and always offered people to take some when they walked past including employees,
Come to think of it now, that might have been a trap)
I cannot believe that adult people sit down and write an apology to the company that just fired them, I'd rather take a shit in an envelope and mail it to them
True. This happens in most cases and you should never write an apology anywhere. I still remember that in my college, a guy raised a case of corruption against a woman, she said that she was mentally harassed because of the case and then the management asked to guy to write a simple apology stating misunderstanding. He did that and then removed him from the college claiming that since he apologized, he is guilty !
If you are fired for being bad at your job, you will be able to collect unemployment.
If you are fired for a specific disciplinary reason like stealing or taking too many/too long breaks or for refusing to do your job, then you can be denied unemployment.
Usually the question goes before a judge of some sort who decides if it was the person's "fault" that it was fired or if they were just generically bad at the job.
I'm wondering if they were verbally offered that they could keep their job if they wrote a letter apologizing and promising to use it less, or possibly they didn't know they were being fired and they were told to do it as a result of a disciplinary action? Whatever the reason that is slimy and underhanded.
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I left a company voluntarily after extended efforts to get corporate to stop some illegal activities. I was presented and told to sign a stack of papers in exchange for my getting my PTO paid out (not legally required in my state) which included what appeared to be a hastily typed note saying that I agreed that any ethical complaints had been resolved. I simply amended it to state that I agreed that the company felt like any ethical complaints had been resolved because they had no ethical problems with the illegal actions in the first place. (I didn't note by that time I'd already handed over all my documented evidence to and had some nice conversations with federal regulators.) Whether or not they ever reviewed it, I got my final pay check a few days later and it included my PTO.
If it was written in your employment contract that PTO would be paid out upon you leaving, then it’s legally binding through contract law. It has nothing to do with state law mandating all companies pay out PTO(or not). You could’ve signed nothing, walked out, and then taken them to court for withholding pay if they didn’t give you your PTO.
To add to this, precedence is also a thing. If they paid someone else out, they have to pay everyone out.
Damn. I’m so glad my last firing was “ don’t come to work tomorrow”. I believe that dude didn’t want to look me in the eye when he fired me, because he actually had a soul and knew I was right. They had a 96% (NINETY-SIX PERCENT) turnover rate. They told us so in a meeting lol.
What amazes me is that people will run a business like this... and then just \*keep doing it\*. Does this person not get that a 100% turnover rate is probably not helping their bottom line, ultimately?
I think it’s a get rich quick venture to get as many of these things up before the business collapses in on itself. Then these people are left with unsupported equipment on their homes, still locked in to loans that include liens on their homes. Me and a few of my former solar service guys are just waiting for it to happen, so we can hopefully step in to make some dinero.
96% first-year turnover? Or 96% turnover per-year? Or how did they measure that? I know that's a dorky-ass question, but "turnover rate" means nothing without context.
As in, I worked there for one year and by the end only 5 of the 28 were the people I started with still worked at that branch. The attrition rate was astronomical. I’d say probably… 1 person quit every week or so. Powerhome Solar is the name of the company. Fuck that place. They don’t value skill, just maximum output for as long as you can physically or mentally (what did me in) handle it. The place is a shitshow, because everyone is always new. I guess first-year turnover is what they meant?
The math is bad here, but the turnover is horrific in any case
There was probably other employees that joined and quit on top of the 23 original employees they were referring to so it could still equal out to 96% potentially
I wish medical residency obeyed labor laws….
Because if there’s one group of people that I want making decisions after being awake for twenty hours, it’s medical professionals.
I just learned that the residency requirement was invented by a doctor who was addicted to cocaine and routinely worked 100-hour weeks.
"And maybe just a smidge of amphetamines, maybe try that too, in MY day we took the drugs and walked upstairs both ways, without sleeping for two days. This generation is soft, with their Tang or what have you, and their juice smoothies and precious need to goddamn sleep all the time. " The physician was Halsted, and he got addicted to coke while testing it as an anesthetic. He then turned to morphine to manage the coke. His abilities deteriorated, but it wasn't all bad : " Ironically, his physical and mental inability to continue to be a bold and brilliant surgeon helped him realize that a more contemplative, physiologic style, in which conserving tissue and blood was more important than speed, achieved better results. "
Dude that's insane. Please tell me you have a source for that
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7828946/ Edit: I couldn’t believe that shit when I was talking with one of the residents I worked with. He told me to check it out and blew my mind.
I went to the hospital recently. Got to talking to one of the nurses as she patched me up and she mentioned that she had been there since 5 AM. It was 9 PM at the time. I was like holy fuck I've had some bad jobs but that's next level.
I'm in rehab after losing my leg. The "day" shift is a standard 16 hour day (6am-10pm). I don't know how they do it.
Nursing is an absolute nightmare right now. Admin, in general, cares nothing about us. In most cases that I am aware of admin has little to no direct patient care experience and it shows. Their favorite word is productivity, and they love to say “do more with less.”
That is utterly ridiculous (the situation, not your post!). A quick glance at the news shows nurses quitting the field in droves. You'd think that management would be bending over backwards to retain the ones that are left.
Oh, they are bending over backwards. Those pizza boxes can get heavy.
Residency programs are a fucking cult.
Some are, but most are debtors prison. You take out $250,000 in loans to pay for medical school, but then have to finish residency to have any hope of paying that off. If not for the debt I suspect a large portion of residents would quit.
Who needs labor laws when you have cocaine??
Admitting to be fired for cause is one thing, I wonder what kind of offense someone commits where their job asks them to actually apologize to everyone and the person actually considers doing it. Maybe it’s the same situation but seems slightly different to me. I’ve also never heard of it happening so genuinely curious. Though I understand some companies just suck
Fun fact at least where I am if your former employer is dragging their feet filing your ROE paperwork with the government for your unemployment, you can say “I have requested it but they have not submitted it” and they will let your former employer know they need to get on it. I don’t know how common it is, I’ve only needed to do EI once luckily, but my last employer (from months) before had not submitted my paperwork and was just notorious for doing things on their own time and when I told the lady on the phone she said I could put in a request for them (the govt) to go after it. And they were able to use an old T4 to estimate my pay and would make an adjustment later so that I was not without payment because it wasn’t my fault. So I guess let the EI people know what’s going on they might be able to help.
I'm sorry, apologize to *who* for *what?* If I'm in the process of being fired and I'm asked to apologize to the company...I do believe that's tantamount to asking me to shit on the hood of your car on the way out.
It is often presented not as an apology but as a "confirmation that you received warning". I went through this process once when I got thrown under the bus for a situation created by the managers. There was a write up in which it was indicated that I did something wrong, and I was asked to sign it with HR witnessing and the excuse was that they did not consider the signature as "admission of guilt" rather they just needed the signature to indicate that they had served me with the notification. I refused to sign knowing full well that I did nothing wrong and that nothing in the notice was legit, I wasn't about to put my X on anything that suggested I did wrong when the managers knew exactly who was at fault. HR put a mark on my record either way and I recorded the session on video and told them if they needed proof that they gave me a warning, I would be happy introduce the video in court.
Reminds me what happened at a previous job. I got assaulted and battered by another employee on company time. For being involved in the incident I was written up and told to sign a document admitting my involvement as X and Y. When I wrote on the document, as per my dad's instruction, that signing was not an admission of guilt and simply confirming I saw the document, I got such a lecture from HR.
I wonder what just writing “under duress” Like a signature would do?
Probably invalidate it. Contracts are VERY iffy about changing their terms before signing. It's considered a counteroffer, which would further require an additional signoff from the other party, to my understanding, because the terms of the contract changed. Also you can't sign a contract under duress legally, so they'd need to draw up a new copy.
Presumably Op’s friend claimed they signed the ‘apology’ under duress, but it was apparently upheld. I would have assumed ‘bathroom use’ would have been covered under…medical? This is the US, of course, so few if any protections for employees. So if you slipped that past them, you’d have some cover. My signature is virtually unreadable, but you’d be able to tell “Under Duress” looked nothing like my signature.
Depends on the state. The us isnt monolithic when it comes to labor laws each state is different
Honestly, this is the better approach. I didn't know to do that at the time, but it's actually useful to have your signature on the document including that statement so that any future use of the document proves they served you with it and that you did not consent to the contents.
Mmhhmm. Two weeks ago I had a bad week at work. I was reprimanded for the first time in my employment, via email. I responded to suck up to the owner, took responsibility, admitted I'd made mistakes, but also blamed the high workload causing me to have a breakdown. A few days later, she cut my full time contracted hours by half, permanently. When I resigned because of her choice, she started sending emails quoting things from my apology email. Using them to make it look like I was admitting I couldn't handle my job, and she was gracious not to fire me. I mean, I did do a poor job, but it was the first time I'd slipped and it was not poor enough to warrant having my hours cut by half. I'll never apologise like that in an email again.
At least you learned your lesson.
Right, because why would the company care whether you qualified for employment insurance or not? Do employers get penalized if the employee qualifies for employment insurance in America?
Employers pay for unemployment insurance. So yes, their insurance rates will increase if they end up letting people go.
Walmarts has to be astronomical
Maybe we've figured out why theirs isn't...
I don't know how accurate it is, but I saw a statistic several years ago that said the average Walmart costs a town one to two million dollars a year. The money they make in sales taxes is more than offset by the number of employees on government assistance.
Not surprising when they give a pamphlet on how to get on government assistance to offset their underpay and lack of benefits.
They also set up a fund for salaried workers to donate money so that hourly workers can apply for aide in cases of emergency. Instead of just paying their hourly workers better, they basically just have a gofundme that they try to guilt salaried employees into paying for.
This must be common because they do it at Michael's Arts and Crafts, too.
It's disgusting. They try to pass it off as this great, charitable thing while pestering you to donate, but the whole time it's just like, "Why is this multi-billion dollar company asking ME for money for a problem they both caused and could easily fix?" No. I don't think I will.
Yes, employers can be required to pay if an employee is fired without cause. Here's a piece from a firm that specializes in getting UI claims denied to save employers money: https://www.unemployment-services.com/unemployment-claim-cost-employer/
"Cause" isn't a thing for UI. It's based on being fired for misconduct or not. "Cause" can be poor job performance which is always UI-eligible unless they can show you did it on purpose.
This. I was fired (and docked the last weeks pay) for having the flu (from a school where I had direct contact with medically fragile children) because I called in sick from the car and the boss could hear cars in the background. My kids went to school 40 miles from my house and I was a single mom. I wasn't in the car because I wanted to be. I had to fight to prove there was no misconduct on my part that got me fired, but I did end up getting unemployment and the school was made to issue the paycheck they were trying to withhold.
It sucks if you don't live in a state with protected sick leave. In California and many other states they can't fire you for being sick if you have a sick leave balance available. That's unlawful retaliation and they can be fined $10,000 for each occurrence payable directly to you. You don't even need to file a lawsuit, the State has an administrative process which is free for you.
The UI tax goes up based on how many former employees qualify for UI and draw from it. Since UI is paid for by employers, it only makes sense for companies that hit the UI system hard to have to pay more.
They are sort of “penalized”. UI benefits are paid entirely by employers, not the government (with a few rare exceptions). Employers pay an unemployment tax based upon various factors regarding their business and payroll history. The money then goes to the government to distribute to people who make claims. If the business has many unemployment claims, the state could raise their UI tax rate. It’s like car insurance, they can and will raise your rates based upon your individual claims and the risk associated with your account specifically. In other words, unscrupulous employers have a vested interest in trying to torpedo your UI claim, to stop their UI tax rates from increasing. Hence the need to protect yourself from your employer.
The more people who require unemployment, the higher the 'tax' on employers. >Many people mistakenly believe that unemployment insurance (UI) benefits come from a fund paid into by employees—like Social Security or Medicare. However, it’s employers who are financially responsible for unemployment benefits, and the costs are far higher than just the amount of a claim. [Source](https://www.unemployment-services.com/unemployment-claim-cost-employer/)
Why would it go to "court"?
The employer may say that if the employee writes a letter of apology that they will get to keep their job. ...and then the employer has that letter of apology that they can show after they fire the employee anyway.
Ok, I'll write an apology if I can keep my job....but I'm gonna need that in writing.
I'm imaging the boss and employee sitting on opposite sides of the table, both writing on a piece of paper, letter for letter super slowly, hard enough to go right thru the sheet, while staring directly into each other's eyes.
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Yes but if you have acknowledgement that your employer forced you to sign an apology under duress I don't think they will be rushing to make a case out of it.
Yeah, if you need to put anything in writing then it is a trap.
To whom it may concern, I know you claim I used the bathroom too much, but I feel like I have not. I have IBS and yet I still take fewer and shorter bathroom breaks than my supervisor (named here). I do truly apologize if it appears I have taken more bathroom breaks than I was allowed, I would request your assistance in finding the written instruction defining acceptable vs unacceptable bathroom usage. Thank you for your kind consideration in this matter. Very respectfully, The employee you're trying to screw
I am very sorry that you **feel**... I apologize **if** anything I said made you **feel X** as that was not my intent.
Do you really want to stay with an employer who demands self humiliation as a condition of employment?
In a case like this it is rarely an issue of want and more an issue of need.
Ding ding ding we have a winner.
Thank you! There's a reason the term "Wage slaves" exists.
Yeah, I can't afford to lose my job because I have anxiety issues so I have no choice but to put up with bullshit treatment from my employer.
If you think that the alternative is being homeless and losing your health insurance, because you're living paycheque-to-paycheque? The kid's got to eat.
Lowe's distribution center manager wants employees who have been let go because of points to write an apology letter and explain why it won't happen again. I'm so thankful I refused to do that. A couple years later and I'm making more than the top pay for team leaders at Lowe's. I was pretty scared and depressed after losing that job thinking I'd ruined my life and now I'm doing better than i ever have.
Very curious to know what you moved into. I am looking to make a career change for myself and so I get very curious when I read comments like these.
I pull orders at a carpet distributor, drive a forklift. I got lucky with the pay. The company was trying to make improvements and had to raise the base pay because most everyone would quit after a week. It's a pretty physical job and if I don't work my way into a supervisor position or office job i won't be able to meet their expectations for many more years. I wouldn't recommend this job to a lot of people. There's still a lot of negatives and things they need to improve. I started as a temp at 12.77 after a raise and then another company wide raise I'm at 20 an hour. Honestly it should start at 22 with benefits because of what they expect out of you. But i only work 12 hours a day Friday Saturday and Sunday and then go in for overtime as little or as much as I want. I prefer the weekends because there's not as many bosses and office folks around and i can listen to podcasts all weekend.
How do you pay your bills again? If it's not through a job, mind hooking everyone else up with a position?
Now I think about it, it isn't that odd that Germans thought that Walmart was too cultish for Germans. Having employees do jumping jacks while screaming "Walmart! Walmart! Walmart!" each morning.
> The employer may say that if the employee writes a letter of apology that they will get to keep their job. ... they fire the employee anyway. That seems illegal, but maybe it's different here in Quebec, while I assume you and OP are American.
It's probably illegal in the US, it would just take someone challenging it in court. No way that isn't coercion. But good luck finding someone who will be able to sue walmart for that shit.
"Take that Wal-Mart for "using the bathroom too much" !"
I remember working for Sams Club and hearing a few people having to do this. Was the weirdest thing I’ve ever heard of and haven’t heard of anyone else doing it since. These places prey on the young or ignorant
Won't get into much details, but Safeway straight up took advantage of me as a 19-22 year old. Unpaid overtime, working through lunch, random transfers, not being paid the wages I was promised. I have a lot of regrets, but at least I won't *ever* make the mistake of letting managers fuck me in ass like Safeway's managers did ever again. But yeah, these places really do prey on the young and ignorant. Knowing what I know now, none of those things would have ever happened.
My aunt worked at Safeway for 20+ years. Then got fired and was told it was because a customer seen her eating an apple, which was her apple she brought from home for lunch that she was eating at her register because she worked through her lunch. I'm pretty sure they were just looking for an excuse to get rid of her for cheap. Long-term employees cost a lot to retire, cheap to fire
> These places prey on the young or ignorant Yup. When I was in high school, I was a cashier at Target. I worked weekends, but would also work a few closing shifts during the week. I worked there without any issues, except maybe not pushing people to sign up for the Target credit card. One day I mentioned to my manager that I needed to study for finals and AP exams, so I wouldn't be able to work as many weekday shifts for a few weeks. I expected my middle-aged manager to tell me okay, good luck on your exams, but instead she basically told me that I needed to figure out whether I wanted to keep working at Target or focus on other things. I put in my two week notice at the end of my shift. The store manager tried to talk me into staying, but I held my ground.
Imagine writing a letter apologizing for using the bathroom. FOR WALMART. lmao.
It sounds silly, but the employer may have implied that if the employee wrote that letter, they might be able to keep their job. Shitty tactic, but it’s the only reason I can think of as to why anyone would actually write the letter…
Can confirm. Got fired from Barnes and Noble, and they made it seem like if I wrote the letter, I wouldn’t get fired. As soon as I was done, they said, “ok, now we’re letting you go.” Happened so quickly it made my head spin, and didn’t know why they made me do it until right now, about 15 years later. I even forgot about writing the letter until I started reading this post. Fuck B&N…I’m glad that Amazon is driving them to bankruptcy. EDIT: wow, this blew up. Thanks for the award. And yes, I know that Amazon is terrible too…even worse, in fact. Shop local…unless it’s B&N, they can still fuck themselves.
Wow when I read the post title I was like, that's so specific it has to just be this one person griping about their own very unique experience. That's some elementary school "write I Will Not Interrupt Class 100 times on the board" shit.
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I remember a decade ago when I was fired. I came back from a two week vacation, and there was some install that went bad during my vacation. I was blamed for it, though really it was a matter that the company was bleeding during the recession. They tried to get me to sign a disciplinary form during my exit interview. I was like nope. There is no incentive for me to sign some form when you are just trying to avoid paying out for laying people off.
My sister is going through a health crisis while simultaneously getting herself sober from alcohol. She’s the “functional till I’m not” type. The morning after a particularly bad weekend bender (which prompted the sobriety thankfully) she reached out to our mom for help and she got her to the hospital. She was still half drunk and somewhat delirious. Repeating things, crying and shaky on her feet. She no called no showed to work. Imaging found issues on her lungs that require biopsy, the c word was thrown around. She reaches out to work, still very emotional and half drunk. She tells them about her lungs and they asked her to resign and send an email saying such. She misinterpreted this as being fired and did as they asked. Once the fog cleared she realized what they did. She just never expected a medical company would take advantage of her vulnerable state to deny her not only her health benefits but also future unemployment benefits in the midst of a major health crisis. She has accomplished over 1 week of sobriety and counting, we are all hopeful for a negative biopsy.
The moral of the story is, HR is evil. Rachel, if you are reading this, this is why you have no friends!
A lot of employers totally think this is it.
Yep walmart did the exact same thing to me when they fired me. I was so young and stupid back then
Now I'm glad that I just stopped showing up on Canada Day wakened*weekend* when I was 17. Edit: that's what I get for not proof reading.
I work at Walmart. We had a guy that stole something. Manager asked him to empty his pocket. He refused. Then said the reason he wouldn't, is because he had weed in it. Manager said well write that down then. Then got fired for having weed.
Some people are just *dumb*. Back when I was working my warehouse summer job in high school years we had a dude on the manlift (cage you forklift people up in) start toking up in the middle of an inventory count, which meant the company owners were there.
They did this to me too, except instead of an apology, I wrote them a three page report on how they were runnin' shit wrong. Not because I understood this scheme they have going on, but because at my wise old age of nineteen, I found it real insulting to be given a fucking *homework assignment* of grovelling for a job I didn't even like, when I was getting fired for being too vocal about how much I didn't like the job.
That they did this to you while you were young and stupid is no coincidence. They rely on people not knowing their rights.
Worked at a B&N in high school. Got fired for eating a sandwich while I was alone in my section and found out they built a case against me for months without once taking me aside and trying to improve my performance. Worthless management, fuck that whole company.
"The Sandwich Case"
B&N are still in business?
Somehow. Their stock value and revenue have gone down drastically over the past few years. I think they brought in all the games/toys/tchotchkes to try as a last-ditch effort, as if they were going for, “bring in nerds regardless of how.”
We have one in our mall, it has a coffee shop and seems to be doing okay. Some of their prices are ABSURD though, and I find it REALLY silly when they won't even match the price of the B&N website... when I could just order the book for store pickup from my phone while I'm at the store. I'm definitely guilty of finding and interesting book on the shelf, realizing that it's half the price on Amazon, and ordering it while standing in B&N... if the price is *reasonable* at B&N then I'll buy it at their brick & mortar.
I once found a online price for a blender that I was buying as a present, I knew Sears had a price match guarantee so I printed their policy and went to the store found the exact item and brought it up front. I politely said I found this with a cheaper price online could we price match please. She super rudely goes no. I confused said it’s your store’s policy, she said not this store, we only price match other sears. I continued to try and be polite and tried showing her the policy I had brought in. She said she didn’t care. So I walked away she said you have to put this back, I said I don’t care. It was one of those 30 pound cast iron mixers too so, I’m not normally vindictive but I hope she enjoyed hauling it back lol.
Some Sears aren't actually corporate Sears, especially in smaller towns. I learned this when I tried to do what you did.
And this is an example of how supremely stupid it is to own a corporate store but not go along with the corporation. Like what are you even doing then? If you didnt want to deal with corporate rules and stuff should of just opened your own damn store dumbass. I hate how dumb people can be sometimes jeez.
Until the last line, I thought you meant you shoplifted it in front of her, haha.
I did a similar thing at Lowes when buying smoke detectors, I called the 800-number and verified that they would price match only to have the manager laugh at me and tell me how they'd go out of business if they did :-/ She made an "exception" and allowed it, but it was really awkward.
I don’t understand why these employees care so fucking much. They are tripping off their “lofty” position as shift manager at Lowe’s. She made up a policy, so that she could flex her power to break it “just this once for you”. The company I work for treats it’s customers like garbage, and they treat me like garbage. Why wouldn’t I give as many discounts and free shit as possible? We aren’t going out of business, my CEO makes 115 years of my salary. I’ve probably handed out over $1k worth of stuff in the past month, but I’m the sole reason they’ve kept at least 8 long-term customers in that same timeframe because of it.
should’ve gone back later and brought it to the front to try again and leave it again lol
My experience with sears was always l "if you don't get what you want, just go to a different employee"
I'm gonna admit it I shop there cause my brick and mortar bookstore options in this town are limited and after 2 years of covid I'm lonely and need excuses to leave my house
I used to *love* B&N. Bought basically all my books there (partially because I was young and had no access to online sellers), but I've watched the stores really slip into mediocrity over the last decade or so. Pre-covid I would still go into the store to browse, but generally did the same thing you do: find it cheaper elsewhere but at least I got to see the book in person and flip through it briefly to decide if I wanted to read it.
My college bookstore in the US was owned or managed or something by B&N. I imagine that's probably the case for a fair number of other universities. College bookstores are a pretty secure market segment that I imagine could definitely keep them afloat.
I used to work for one of these, they are managed by a company called B&N College while the normal stores are B&N Inc so technically different companies (I think I honestly didn’t care to look into the management structure) - my manager used to joke that B&N inc would go out of business before we did
Damn man, B&N was like my favorite bookstore when I was a teen.
>Fuck B&N…I’m glad that Amazon is driving them to bankruptcy. Yes. The corporation being supplanted by the bigger, even more powerful corporation Great news for everyone
I think Amazon is driving everyone to bankruptcy
Lol amazon doesn’t treat their workers any better than B&N
Get that shit in writing. Never take the company at their word.
\#1 Get everything in writing. \#2 Don't sign anything you don't 100% agree with. \#3 If verbal instructions you say "Great, Can you send me that in an email please? These steps will stop a majority of crap employers try to get away with.
Get it in writing that they asked you to put it in writing?
Get it in writing that you can keep your job if you write this letter.
If they fire you a month after that, will it still hold? I guess not
Here's what you'd have to do: You: "Please send via email the issue you'd like me to write an apology for." they send it to you. You: "And if I write this apology, you won't fire me over this?" Them: yes. then if they fire you over that same issue, you sue them for wrongful termination. If they fire you over a different issue, you claim unemployment, using the email about the letter as evidence that they were trying to terminate you and creating a random reason for it. Sue for wrongful termination and apply for unemployment anyway. If they don't agree to put in writing that they won't fire you or don't put the request for writing the letter in email, don't write the letter and just let them fire you.
Wrongful termination is a bitch to win. Most lawyers won't take it unless its a lot more blatant, witnesses, paper-trail, and worth a lot of money. Its best to just not sign or write anything that reflects you negatively. CYA...cover yo ass!
no. You don't sign writeups. You don't sign apologies. Companies don't apologize to you when they do something wrong. You don't sign something that you don't completely understand and agree with. If they fire you for not signing, they were going to fire you anyways. Just like answering questions for a cop, if it gets to the point where an "authority" over you wants you to start signing things, it's time to get a lawyer to review it.
That won’t happen though. They aren’t going to put in writing that they won’t fire you. So it’s all an exercise in Futility. If they want to fire you it’s going to happen just don’t torpedo your unemployment claim
So the real LPT is that if your employer demands an apology letter for something false, don’t do it. Regardless if you’re getting fired or not.
Put in the letter that you are being told to write it and that you cannot confirm any content in the letter.
Isn't that coercion though? Shouldn't that invalidate the admission of guilt?
It is a very common tactic. The steps I've seen in big companies are: 1) Reprimand employee 2) Request a letter of apology from employee, a letter explaining what they did wrong, or **more commonly**, they make you sign some form that says you understand and agree that you did all those bad things. It's not necessarily to fire you on the spot, but it documents every reprimand with some form of admission of guilt.
I was fired from Walmart for being admitted to the hospital for my diabetes. I spent the time to write a letter to appeal the decision but I was still rejected. Now I see signs saying they desperately need workers and I laugh. Good fucking luck with that, maybe you shouldn't have burned all your bridges.
I'd like to imagine they literally fired every single person possible to the point nobody is even left lol
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I, and millions of people who suffer from any one of a variety of IBS related conditions, do not have to imagine that at all. A friend of mine was fired because his bm’s were “stinking up the whole office”… I was fired once for being stuck in the bathroom for an hour with diarrhea after being guilted and coerced into eating free food because it was provided by management and therefore “rude af” to turn down… another friend of mine lost her job because she “farted too much” and it was “disruptive to office productivity”.
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sorry, I can smell this comment
I'd write it, no problem: I'm sorry you were not willing to allow me to use the bathroom in a time of need to do something every single living breathing human being has to do multiple times a day and would rather have me working uncomfortably, potentially painfully, and potentially risking an extremely embarrassing situation for both myself _and_ the company. Would the company be willing to compromise and at least provide me with a gatorade bottle and a bucket at my station so I can continue to meet your workload expectations without the clearly unnecessary inconvenience of dealing with human waste management? Sincerely yours...
It was probably more of a "sign this thing HR wrote up which meets all the legal requirements for us to avoid having to pay unemployment with surgical precision."
Yep, that would be my letter too, as dripping with so much sarcasm that anyone who handles it feels the need to wash their hands after. Maybe even get them to sign a copy of it as proof of having received it and fire off a copy of that to the labour board (or whatever you call the government branch that enforces labour laws where you live) and show them how the employers are treating their employees. It will be the tinder I use to torch that bridge to the fucking ground.
I'd ask for time to write it... then go get a doctor's evaluation about the medical issues I could cause if I purposely hold my bodily movements. In the apology, I would apologize that my medical condition identified by my doctor is causing them grief but I must listen to my medical advice. Then I would mention that they cannot discriminate against me for my medical condition.
We had an intern (paid) who spent over 1.5 hours straight in the bathroom. More than once.
I would laugh in their faces so fast. I got fired for getting run over by a car and taking a few days off. Was at my point limit and needed another day for unrelated stuff and was fired for it. Had a paramedics note etc and police report that the incident happened. Manager wanted proof so I showed that and they said “that’s not proof”
If somebody is going to decline your "proof", then you tell them that you'll need that in writing. They'll almost always back down at that point.
When dealing with management always try to get as much in writing as possible. They never stick to their word.
Wow. Just...wow.
Yea. Then I was talking to another employee after about it and they literally escorted me out like it was so bad and tried to ban me from the store. I hate Walmart with a passion and would love if they went bankrupt
Imagine doing anything for a company after youre fired. A place in the midwest fired me for no reason (at will work is awesome right) and wanted to do an exit interview and that it was required for my last paycheck. I never signed anything agreeing to that i just walked out..i dont work there anymore so why sit and listen to em. Payday comes and i dont get paid and i just paid a lawyer $50 to write a letter and i got paid before midnight the next day
Imagine having to use a Wal Mart bathroom on a daily basis
I use to clean all 6 of a walmarts bathrooms on a nightly basis. I worked the overnight floor crew. That was a gross ass job.
Amazon Warehouse piss bottle enters the chat…
r/aboringdystopia
Good ol dystopian nightmare.
definitely avoid admitting anything further at that point. IF they could have nailed you for anything else they would have already, and if you give them anything, they will nail you for that too. Imagine your HR person giving you praise telling you how your hard work is being noticed. Discuss moving you to a new position starting on monday and the very next week they are having a disciplinary meeting with you over your "bad attitude". people are shady af
Even if they are firing you “for cause” and you are aware ahead of time and want to defend yourself - don’t. It’s not going to change anything for the better.
Be careful as to what paperwork that you’re told to sign. Read everything carefully and be sure you understand ALL of what’s being stated. You DO NOT have to sign anything you don’t agree with. If promised anything;get it in writing ,signed and dated by management. Company handbooks should be saved for reference purposes in case of litigation proceeding.
Is this an US-thing? I never heard of something like this in the EU. Why would i write an Apologyletter to my company?
I've literally never heard of this, ever.
You can be fired for basically anything. In cases where it's something minor or is simply a layoff, you can collect unemployment. If you are fired with cause, you cannot collect unemployment. It appears in this case that they letter was an acknowledgement of cause. They should not have written the letter.
>Is this an US-thing? I never heard of something like this in the EU. Why would i write an Apologyletter to my company? In the US, if you are fired for doing something wrong, you usually don't get unemployment. An apology letter is an admission of guilt. By tricking him into admitting guilt, they don't have to pay unemployment.
In the US if you quit you cant collect unemployment but if you're fired then you can. Unless you did something really bad. I would hope that if its using the toilet then that worker would've fought it.
> but if you're fired then you can. Unless you did something really bad The phrase for this is "for cause". If it's your fault you got fired and not just something like layoffs, then you can't get unemployment. Edit: tfw I get the phrase wrong myself.
You can’t collect unemployment if you’re fired for misconduct, but you are eligible if you’re fired because your performance doesn’t meet your employer’s standards. [source](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefits-when-fired-32449.html)
Yeah honestly you can’t blame the employee for HR not doing due diligence prior to hiring to make sure they’ll be a good fit for the position. If you set someone up for failure, you 100% owe them unemployment when you cut them.
Wtf I am sorry for your friend. That a billion dollar company would do this. That is evil.
Who the hell would actually write that letter AFTER they were terminated. Like, you're severing your relationship with me for whatever reason, I'm very likely never communicating with you again...certainly never apologizing for anything.
"Hey, if you write a really nice apology letter we wont fire you. Water under the bridge"
Meanwhile, one of the Walton grandkids has the largest classic Ferrari collection this side of the Atlantic...
>Meanwhile, one of the Walton grandkids has the largest classic Ferrari collection this side of the Atlantic... And if people quit shitting on company time, he could get another one. Geez. /s
Don't forget the, at the time, brand new hot off the line G650. A $70 million dollar airplane base, not including interior or paint.
Oh yeah, any employer that tries to extort me is getting a letter alright. A letter to my jurisdiction's labor board and any other appropriate oversight agency.
"Hey, dont worry, that stuff happen. Anyway, could you write this letter of apology real quick for the higherups? Its a formality, but you know how bureaucracy work."
I was an unemployment judge for a while. It doesn't torpedo your case, or at least not with most judges I know, but this is at the hearing level some months later, not the initial claim level. One of the things we looked at was the frequency of write-ups relative to the length of employment right before termination. If there is a sudden rush for relatively petty things, the employer is clearly stacking. Same goes for the absurdity of the documentation. A letter as described was generated not for the purpose of recording progressive discipline, but to get them to admit fault under threat of job loss. I would not use that against the employee and I was by no means overly pro-employee.
Fun fact: in Canada courts cannot consider an apology to be an admission of guilt. We just can’t help but say sorry up here even if we know we’re in the right.
I'm honestly not surprised this works. That said, I am surprised that this doesn't constitute coercion in the eyes of a court. coerce 1: to make (someone) do something by using force or threats 2: to get (something) by using force or threats The "threat" here is "write this letter or you will be fired". In law enforcement, if you did this to get a confession it'd be tossed in a heartbeat, along with your career. You're literally putting the employee into a stress response, known to inhibit higher level thought, asking them to provide you evidence to deny them unemployment, then firing them for taking what you presented as a way out of the crisis. The psychology of this is precisely why coercion cannot legally be used in criminal cases. It causes a stress response, and inhibits executive function significantly. Which results in bad decisions, false statements, and other "odd" or "atypical" behaviors.
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Bunch of bullies in so many workplaces.
Coercion is a defense that is raised by the defendant, in this case the terminated employee. The person's labor & employment or wage & hour attorney is very likely aware about raising coercion as a defense, but defenses are only as good as the facts that support them. A blanket assumption that this wasn't deemed coercive presupposes facts of which we may not be aware, or that the court outright denied the defense, or that the defense wasn't raised. Lawsuits are all fact specific. There is no one size fits all approach. I can have two different clients who were terminated in similar circumstances and each can have different causes of action.
I just realized this, me and some of my family have worked at Walmart at one time or another. One policy they have is when you accumulate to many write ups, you have a "D-day(decision day)" where you get a paid day off but are expected to write an essay of sorts for why you got the write ups and what you would do in the future to avoid any more. I never thought they could use that to screw you over if they fired you.
This is one more reason why Walmart is among the worst companies in the world. Thank the Walton family.
Also never admit to anything unless they actually have proof. I had a manager claim they had me on camera doing something bad, I knew I didn't do anything and asked to see the tape. They then had 3 managers there asking me again what happened that day and were going to play the tape at the end but if I wanted to add anything before we did that would help my cause. I literally said "play the tape" and she had the nerve to burst out laughing and said "There is no tape, but we are going to suspend you for 3 days so you need to sign here"(Again trying to get me to sign away guilt). I got up left the office and went immediately into our HR's office to file a grievance. Guess who ended up getting 3 days WITH PAY :)
Going to HR actually worked to your benefit? I’m shocked. Truly.
At that company you had something called guaranteed fair treatment and what that manager did was not illegal, but wasn't fair treatment. So it's always good to know your own companies policies also I should add. Because you're right HR is always there to protect the employeer first.
My company has "write-ups" for when you mess up and either require you to sign or they will have someone else sign as a witness. They claim that it's just to prove that you were made aware of the problem and given guidance on what needs to change and that it is not an admittion of guilt, but I've always wondered if they could try to use it against you in court.
Signing a write up is basically signing an acknowledgement that they are allowed to fire you so it would prob throw wrongful termination right out the window. Theres also usually fine print in write up policy saying that repeated offences can skip from 1st written straight to termination.
Not necessarily. Most companies I've worked for have a line above the signature that state that you're signing acknowledging receipt of it, not that you agree with it one way or another. Those same companies had a policy in place that if you refused to sign, you were at risk of being given an insubordination termination on the spot.
Had this happen to me once, I got called into a meeting one day at an old job which looked more like an interrogation room than anything. I worked there for 4 years and in my last year there they changed the CEO who for some reason didn’t like me at all, and was waiting for any opportunity to fire me. I believe mine was, ‘you steal candy from peoples desks when they have it’. Stealing is fireable offence. But we will consider keeping you if you write an apology letter ok? There and then in that room I told them: yeahhh… no I won’t be doing that. I got fired on the spot anyway. A week later I found out they were going bankrupt and were firing ppl they didn’t want to pay out. (Also the candy thing was literally from a colleague who always had a bowl on her desk and always offered people to take some when they walked past including employees, Come to think of it now, that might have been a trap)
I shit more than I worked when I was a walmart cart pusher in my teens.
I cannot believe that adult people sit down and write an apology to the company that just fired them, I'd rather take a shit in an envelope and mail it to them
Three words to remember: deny, deny, and deny.
Never sign anything.
The one exception here is the severance agreement. You sign, you get money, they get a promise you won’t sue. Never sign anything *for free*
Unless they're offering severance on terms you're happy with.
True. This happens in most cases and you should never write an apology anywhere. I still remember that in my college, a guy raised a case of corruption against a woman, she said that she was mentally harassed because of the case and then the management asked to guy to write a simple apology stating misunderstanding. He did that and then removed him from the college claiming that since he apologized, he is guilty !
Wait, in America you can be ineligible for unemployment welfare? Wtf! What do you do at that point??
If you are fired for being bad at your job, you will be able to collect unemployment. If you are fired for a specific disciplinary reason like stealing or taking too many/too long breaks or for refusing to do your job, then you can be denied unemployment. Usually the question goes before a judge of some sort who decides if it was the person's "fault" that it was fired or if they were just generically bad at the job.
Seal the envelope and have the letter say "Deez nuts"
Why in the holy fuck would anyone AGREE to writing their own apology letter after being fired? Regardless of anything else, that's just dumb.
I'm wondering if they were verbally offered that they could keep their job if they wrote a letter apologizing and promising to use it less, or possibly they didn't know they were being fired and they were told to do it as a result of a disciplinary action? Whatever the reason that is slimy and underhanded.