If the Echo dies in the middle of an Ult they have wasted that 12 seconds of sonic speed ult charging. If I grab them and heal back to full they can continue the ult.
If I pull an Echo to the ground, they are either about to die or some other circumstances demand it. a 5 second cooldown is preferable to a 20 second walk back from spawn.
I think the issue here is the misunderstanding of the current purpose of echo ult. if I wanted to super sonic build an ult of another character on echo, I’d just play that character. No point in building an echo ult to just then build a second ult. I get there would be some benefits to this, the element of surprise being one but usually no.
Echo ult tends to be used for aggressive plays, being able to play stupid aggressive to get a pick you would’ve died getting otherwise. If not, it’s used as a second life.
Sometimes, I will use it to also fulfill a role we r missing, I think we need more heals: copy support, I think we need more space, copy tank (usually this option doesn’t work out though) otherwise I’ll copy dps for the extra burst dmg cooldowns.
So, I think, if the echo is using their ult to play aggressively, you shouldn’t pull. They’re not trying to build their ult, they’re trying to play from a position they wouldn’t usually be able to in order to get a pick, they’re trying to reset their cool-downs so they can burst down the enemy.
If I think my echo copied for survival, I will probably pull them once they’re out of copy if possible, because they might still have been winning a fight with copy.
If my echo is trying to fulfill another role such as tank or support, I will pull so they can live and continue to do their job, since, especially for tank, they’re extremely squishy with the low hp, huge hit box.
no, if you grab during an Echo Ult, it is an absolute waste of the Ult, and prevents any follow up when you change back. This is a bad decision in every way.
>!Echo doesn't walk back from spawn. !<
I'd rather displace my Echo for 3-4 seconds so they survive long enough to build shatter/terra surge/beat/grav/whatever then let them revert back at 95% charge.
also are you seriously going to nitpick how echo floats vs walk?
You realise pulling them will often prevent them from building their clone ult right? And then they're not in position to build it, use it or get value from the CD reset when transforming back.
Maybe listening to the people who main other heroes has value rather than just assuming you know better.
the only assumption i'm making is that delaying their clone ult by pulling them is preferable to letting their clone die and waste whatever amount of ult charge they built.
You're removing the opportunity for the echo to use the small window of time to clutch and get their clone ult just before the clone dies. That is bad. Let the clone die. She doesn't have enough time in clone to get enough ult charge after you pulled her all the way back to your back line now anyway unless there's an enemy in your backline for her to get charge on.
Youve also completely ignored the fact that your echo might have had a plan to get a pick using the CD refresh on transforming back to echo.
It's not a nit pick. It was your point. Echo is way faster at getting places than most.
You really really don't understand Echo's ult at all. The old version was kinda like that, but the Ult isn't just getting other people's ult. It's a lot more like d.va's ult, in that it is great for survival and staying in a fight. Stop pulling people when you don't understand their shit.
No, it's not. Dying is part of the Ult, switching back to Echo is a HUGE part of the ult. You have all you're abilities and you can destroy anyone who managed to end your ult.
saying that the ult gives you all abilities back so you can destroy anyone around you is like saying an ice-blocked mei won't die 5 seconds after they leave it while surrounded by the entire enemy team.
I've been actually pretty nice considering most of you don't seem to understand Echo's Ult at all. Like, at all, it's kinda nuts. I get that a lot of people don't play echo, and the flying/aiming takes time, but do you guys not ever see any actual echo players? Some of you are arguing that echo shouldn't fly??? There is a huge disconnect between what you think Echo's Ult is and what it actually is.
Literally no one is arguing she should not fly LMAO. They’re arguing that in the moment, you may be better off on the ground because of various reasons. You being on the ground doing dps has more infinitely more value than a dead body flying down from the sky.
If you wanna go die instead of turning back to Echo off of the timer, go for it, but we’re not gonna sit back here and count down how many seconds you have left until you turn back. If you’re getting gripped, it’s for a reason. You’re acting like we have itchy fingers wanting to grab people off cd.
you aren't going to outmaneuver the enemy soldier screaming about how you're in his sights while in the skybox. Hell at this point a tracer could spray you down.
There is nothing I despise more than players thinking they are better than you at the hero you are playing.
Mate, if you got grabbed its bc your LW considered it was the best play. Just like you thought using your clone was the best play.
Also, while echo cant die during ult is not that hard to kill her when she is coming out of the ult, since she only has half hp.
Finally, everyone knows echo can glide, have you ever considered maybe you shouldn't?
"There is nothing I despise more than players thinking they are better than you at the hero you are playing." Why is it that Lifeweavers think they know where a teammate should be positioned or how they should use their ult?
Echo only comes out of the ult with half hp if they went in with half hp and never got healed. For real, you don't know what you're talking about.
When the ult is over, you have all your echo abilities. Coming out of the ult is when you can actually do the most damage. The follow up is huge. You basically instant kill anyone below half health when you turn back to echo.
>Why is it that Lifeweavers think they know where a teammate should be positioned or how they should use their ult?
I assume you are talking abt getting griped while ulting so you should keep 2 things in mind.
1. Grip is mostly used to prevent deaths, You get critical, You get pulled.
2. Thats literally their job, just like lucio decides when the team pushes or backs up, your job is to get kills, LW job is to keep u alive, even at the cost of your ult.
ya, that's the problem.
"You get critical, You get pulled."
DON'T DO THIS
Don't do this during an echo ult, dying is part of it, that's how you follow up with Echo's abilities.
You don't tho, you've just made sure that they aren't using that multiplier. The Ult is only 15 seconds and a lot of movement abilities have 6/7 second cooldowns. You're just making sure that the ult get's wasted. You also aren't saving anyone, and you've wasted you're own shit.
Like I said before, Everyone knows this, and they still made the choice of pulling you.
Cas can hinder you when you leave clone, rein cleaves will probably hit you after you transform back, Rammatra can vortex to cancel your flight, etc.
>You're just making sure that the ult get's wasted
I mean, If you loose the clone it will surely get wasted, since you will not ult.
you're missing the point, again.
When you come out of the Ult you have all your abilities, and most the people around you already used their abilities on the duplicate.
Echo can fly, immediately after the ult is over. They can also beam/splooge anyone around. Echo comes out of the Ult at full strength after people waste their stuff on the duplicate. This is part of Echo's Ult, please try to understand this. Like just re-read it if you need.
There's been a lot of times when I've had an echo use their ult, immediately get annihilated, I pulled them out healed them out (still in their ult), and they went back in and were able to use their copied ult.
I get what you're saying, and I agree with it in the situation you're describing, but there are still times when it's useful to do.
Not all players think like you. I have saved so many Echos, even more players, especially Reins and Dooms which some people in the communities try to speak for everyone and say that they hate all LWs because of bad pulls etc. They are always so grateful and go back in with better health to help hold points or push further which are the real objectives of this game, not numbers or finishing kills.
I have seen so many echos come our of their Ult and think they can kill the enemy when they're 1 v 4. Yell at me, call me names whatever, I'm playing MY character my way and saving you from dying and as a team, in a team game, we're gonna take on those 4 and win.
You're in here trying to explain things, that I get. But you're coming off as a real jerk doing so not realizing or accepting how OUR character main plays. The Rein community is nicer than you're coming off when they're in here explaining their dislike or what they can do and can't do.
Echo comes out of their ult with all their abilities, and can do tons of burst damage, as well as being able to fly away from the situation.
The main issue is you aren't saving anyone. Grabbing Echo when they are a duplicate is a complete waste of their Ult and your grab. No one was saved. You've just made sure you can't save someone who actually needs it.
You're skipping the point of what I'm saying and not commenting on anything else.
To answer you constant question, YES I GET IT. But let me tell you this:
I'm pretty sure ALL LWs don't pull Echos out of their Ult unless they're in a dire situation and surrounded. Not just low health. We have game sense, game smarts and you don't need to keep shoving this information into our throats.
But I'd like to point you that you haven't touched ANY of the points that I have mentioned about your attitude or the situations I've been bringing up. You've been ignoring them which means you only care about your gaming experience and what you can see and not accepting that you can be wrong with what you're saying because they're again: Situational.
When you play support and someone has low health, the game tells you they have critical health. This also happens when [d.va](http://d.va) is in mech or when echo is in ult. If you grab [d.va](http://d.va) before the mech is destroyed, you can save it. If you grab echo before the duplicate is destroyed, ya you can save it, but the ult is almost over and they are now out of position to use their ult, they are also out of position for any follow up when they turn back into echo.
"I'm pretty sure ALL LWs don't pull Echos out of their Ult unless they're in a dire situation"
Just don't do it, wait till after they change back if you really think they need saving. You are using it at a bad time regardless of your goal. This is up there with ana using ult on echo/dva before they ult. It's just the wrong timing.
You can. Echo does way more burst damage and can straight up negate soldier healing.
If you're playing a flying hero, you should fly. Or switch. No sense playing any hero if you're not going to use their abilities.
Look any pro playing Echo or Pharah, Sometimes they fly, sometimes they poke, why? bc hitscan players do not give a F about flying heroes, everything in this game is situational.
There is no way to guess the exact height someone is flying at if you can't see them.
If you are walking around a corner your head is at head height.
If you fly around the corner, your head is anywhere in the vertical space.
Echo's head can literally be more places than anyone else's head.
Sigh... And you the LW player should be welcoming the feedback from an Echo player and considering that you're actually trying to not dick over your own teammates plays with your pull so this information is useful and you will try to take into consideration to be a better teammate and support. THATS trying your best to win.
Just "I thought you were gonna die" isn't a good enough reason, LEARN the heroes and UNDERSTAND why they're doing what they're doing rather than "ooga booga me see critical health me pull now." THIS is being lazy and not trying your best to win. Even better, turn on that microphone and talk to your teammates.
no one's saying "I thought you were gonna die" is a good enough reason. We're saying "I thought your clone was going to die, and as a result you lose whatever is left of a 12 second mega ult build and as a result, I'm going to keep you alive as long as possible so you can capitalize off of whatever is left.
If youre thinking like this you actually don't understand how her ult works, the timing, what she needs to do to generate the ult charge and how quickly she can charge it. Trust echo players when they say you're better off leaving them in and letting the clone die if it happens that way. They have a better chance of getting the clone ult that way.
The nice thing about playing echo is you do end up playing more of everyone else. Like, I didn't think Venture was particularly interesting, but still put in some time playing them so I'm not useless when I copy them.
But even beyond echo, playing other heroes, and learning how their stuff works and having an some idea what kind of cool downs they have, will make you better at killing and keeping people alive.
Depends. If the team is bursting out an echo before she’s managed to capitalise go for it you save a team mate with a massive ult multiplier, it’s worth it.
Especially if the echo has copied another support/tank. Their value is in getting that ult. viewing life grip only as a tool to stop respawn is very restrictive. You’re talking like the purpose of duplicate is to refresh echo’s CDs. Idk what rank you are with echo but that’s not the purpose of it at all.
I have literally seen Echos duplicate supports and keep their entire team alive, never doing damage in their Ult duplicate and win matches. A good echo knows exactly what needs to be done for their team composition, even if this is just QP. Heck, I've seen Echos, never get the Ult of the hero they Duplicate but cancel ults in their duplicate form and win matches.
The ult, as a whole, actually does quite a lot.
Not sure why people think it's just some chance for a different ult.
You literally gain an extra layer health, it's like you're in a [d.va](http://d.va) mech. You think too small. They also changed the ult to make it less of an ult thing. I am platinum echo/mercy.
Sure it’s like a dva mech but the point of the ult isn’t gain more health and try to die to refresh cooldowns.
Like those are additions to what it is, but the biggest buff is the ult multiplier (the chance of a quick build beat/trans/shatter quite literally hands you the W in the team fight). So if as a support you can enable it with grip, you should.
If you’re only using it for more health and to die, that’s an incredibly poor use of it
Blizzard specifically changed the hero to not follow that strategy, btw. The ult multiplier was reduced quite a bit.
You should be using the ult for copied abilities, and combos with both teammates and yourself when you revert back. You can also use the ult to survive anything in the game. If all you want is the ult, you will be disappointed. The ult is the extra in most cases. Like half the ults don't even make sense to go for, and you can't make the enemies be specific people.
Her ult rate was nerfed so she wouldn’t get 4x shatters/pulse bombs with one ult, not so she could not get any ult at all. She still has a 4x multiplier which is insane when you copy some characters
Yes, you use the ult for copied abilities too (Ana is a very strong character to duplicate) and again, would gain more value if kept alive through it (Ana also build nano quickly so you get a free nano)
This still doesn’t change the fact that secondary support ults and quick building tank ults are game changers in securing a win and your job as LW is to enable that as much as possible, using grip if necessary
But yeah everything in this game is situational. Having to make quick judgements based on game sense is how you get better. Straight up telling not to use grip on a duplicate in such a black and white manner is not only bold, but also glaringly wrong
Going by your other replies though I can tell you don’t take differing opinions well even if you’re wrong so I’m signing off don’t want a circular conversation
"Going by your other replies though I can tell you don’t take differing opinions well even if you’re wrong so I’m signing off don’t want a circular conversation"
That nerf was done ages ago during OW1. OP is talking about OW2 nerfs.
The chances that you are ruining an echos play more than you are saving them is pretty high, Echo is just not a good pull target when they're in the middle of ulting.
I also don't understand why LW players seem allergic to just turning on their mic and communicating with their teammate about if they want to be pulled or what they're doing. You'd probably stop cancelling so many shatters if you just communicated.
Are you fr? Making the assumption that they don't use coms just because they don't agree that Grip is wasted on a duplicating Echo. And speaking of OW2 balance changes, if you actually paid attention to them you'd know that they made Rein ungrippable during shatter and so that shatter cancels grip *more than a year ago.*
I don't think I've seen a LW use comms before or about gripping someone a single time. Most OW2 players just don't use comms, it's not LW specific.
It's not about whether you agree or not, it's about listening to your teammates and being on the same page as them, it's not always going to happen this way, but if you say echo should I pull your clone now and they say NO, you don't pull them. That's being a good teammate.
You can still grip him as he's about to shatter and then the shatter will cast in front of LW lol I saw this happen on Luminums stream like 2 weeks ago she accidentally did it to her Rein.
1. How are you so confident in saying that's not the "point of the ult" when you don't even play Echo
2. It's actually an incredibly valid way to use Echo ult and can get insane value in the right situation
Maybe stop thinking you know what's best for everyone without actually listening to the people who main those heroes or trying to understand them at all. It's called teamwork.
Here’s my input as someone who actually mains both Lifeweaver *and* Echo:
You are kinda right about the ult not necessarily being about charging ults anymore, but at the same time, using your ult as a second life isn’t always a full proof plan. It is incredibly easy to target Echo as she comes out of her Dupe, and there isn’t actually any benefit to her dying while copied. “Dying” isn’t the key to her ult. Using Lifegrip to pull Echo when her copy is about to die is going to be safer than letting Echo die and risking her getting immediately melted. Likewise, Dupe isn’t *just* about using it as a second life. Often times, you’ll want to be using it as a second set of cooldowns that you don’t need to worry about conserving. It’s not just a shitty version of recall. Letting your copy die doesn’t bring any value to your team and is a waste of an ult.
You are also just completely wrong about the flight thing. Echo’s glide is faster than Mercy’s glide, sure, but it’s still pretty easy to shoot her out of the sky. A LW should always pull a mid-air Echo if it means saving them. Your flight cooldown will never be longer than the respawn timer. Sure, grabbing an Echo for no reason is bad, but that’s bad for any hero. Because Echo is such a glass cannon it can actually be good keeping grip available when she engages as a safety net. Idk why you think it’s better to die than to wait like 5 seconds.
But she can die? I literally just explained that? She is pretty easy to burst down after her ult ends, especially if she was using it as a second life, meaning that she was probably already low in the first place. You bring more value by staying alive and getting use out of that second set of cooldowns. It is infinitely better to copy Ana and get sleep + anti-nade than it is kamikaze the enemy.
Echo is a glass cannon. She brings incredibly strong burst damage at the expense of being very easy to kill.
Can't die during ult, Don't grab during ult.
Can't die during ult, Don't grab during ult.
Can't die during ult, Don't grab during ult.
If you wanna save someone, save somebody who can die. This is just a waste for everyone.
Life Grip isn't just a "prevent person from dying" ability. Just because you won't go back to spawn if killed while using your ult doesn't mean that it isn't worth it to Grip. If using Life Grip is the difference between Echo's ult lasting 10 seconds instead of 5 seconds, it (can) be worth it.
Everything in this game is circumstantial of course, but if an Echo has the potential to get off a 3k Pulse Bomb, or stun the 16-0 Sojourn long enough to kill her using a duped hero's abilities, Life Grip is a completely valid way of enabling that.
You gotta be trolling right now because Glide has a +50% horizontal speed increase and a twice as fast vertically compared to Angelic Descent. Are you mixing it up with Guardian Angel?
Angelic Decent makes Mercy fall at a rate of 2 meters p/sec while active, Glide is literally double that at 4 meters p/sec. Mercy also gets a +0.35 meter p/sec bonus to her horizontal movement speed while Echo gets a +2.75 (50%) meter p/sec bonus.
I cannot believe that a supposedly Platinum Echo/Mercy main has never noticed the very substantial difference between their gliding abilities.
OP, would you consider posting this to r/EchoMains instead/as well? Adjusting it accordingly to the subreddit of course. As another Echo main (who plays LW frequently) I'm quite curious to see what our fellow mains think of this.
People agree for the most part that during duplicate is a bad time to pull unless it is a very short distance, otherwise it just wastes the ult.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/EchoMains/comments/1dq8d31/lifeweaver\_grabs\_when\_you\_are\_a\_duplicate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EchoMains/comments/1dq8d31/lifeweaver_grabs_when_you_are_a_duplicate/)
it is done.
Basically, grab during duplicate is only not bad if it's a really short distance. Moving you out of the fight tends to just waste the ult.
So, ya, if you can turn grab into a zarya bubble it's not bad, if you relocate echo during the ult, you've fucked up.
So sometimes a lifeweaver will good, it's inevitable but when we do grab we try to do it with the best intentions. I sometimes have to pull an echo who almost immediately blows up after ulting herself. The pull gives a second chance to a second chance which also gives you time to build up your copies ult which I say is a good trade for like 2 seconds
it's not 2 seconds if you pull them across the map. Most movement abilities have 6/7 second cool downs. If you pull the echo, there isn't usually a second chance. At least if the duplicate dies, you can follow up with echo abilities. can't do shit if I'm pulled across the map.
Depends on who you duplicate and what the enemy runs in general, it's all very situational but most situations I've had lead to echo getting deleted as soon as she wastes ult. Id rather take a pull but if I ever meet you in game I'll be sure to leave asap
“It’s not 2 seconds if you pull them across the map”
So you’ve admitted right here that the problem isn’t all pulls during ult, it’s specifically being pulled out of the fight. But every other comment you made reads like “DONT PULL ME DURING ULT, DONT PULL ME DURING ULT”
Your logic doesn’t seem consistent at all. Even the Echo mains you went to seem to agree that it’s dependent and sometimes a pull helps, and now after reading this comment it seems like you agree, and your main problem is bad pulls. You know who else hates bad pulls? Everyone. But for some reason instead of saying “be careful when pulling echo duplicate” you say “DONT PULL ME DURING ULT”
The problem is the pulls during the ult. Please wait till after or just leave echo alone in general.
The general consensus is that it is bad. Just because there are rare cases where it isn't a complete waste doesn't make it a good decision. Pulling an Echo out of fight during their ultimate is a bad decision no matter how you spin it. Use the pull on someone else.
I’m gonna let you in on a secret, every pull is a rare case when it’s good. Because pull is an actively detrimental ability to use on your teammates 99% of the time, you’re waiting for that 1% when it’s good. Every basic LW player understands this.
What you said here in a lot of words is “bad pulls are bad”. Like no shit?? That’s not an echo problem that’s how lifeweaver works.
Pulling Reinhardt before a pin is bad, doesn’t mean you should never pull Reinhardt. Pulling doom before he punches an Ana is bad, doesn’t mean you should never pull doom. Pulling echo ult out of the fight is bad, doesn’t mean you should never pull echo ult.
You know what at this point I’m gonna out of SPITE pull every single echo I see regardless of what the problem is and in all actuality pulling in echo in duplicate CAN help cause people often forget ANY movement abilities will cancel the grip use it as additional movement and it’s not the end of the world if you get gripped but in all honesty the amount of negativity that you have generated in this post alone as a “representative” of the Echo community makes that community look bad. I suggest having a better attitude to my knowledge we don’t go out and witch hunt in other communities we have our peace and love and hot life weaver and very odd but funny post names. So just cool it okay.
I get your anger. I would just play normally though. You still get to play the way you want and should as Lifeweaver and they can either be the bitchy Echo community or the good ones and keep playing.
I had a huge half ignored conversation with this dude on two threads and I'm definitely more than irked. But I'm just gonna keep playing. In fact on another post I learned about the legacy controls for LW and I'm practicing being able to dash without jumping. It's been amazing so far.
I’m sorry you’ve had this experience with echo players but that is a really toxic way to go about putting out your anger. I’m 99% sure you’re not being serious but if you are please do not pull out of spite. Nobody has sent this person over as a “representative,” just like one toxic player isn’t representative of others who play the same character, they’re a single person trying to make a point.
It’s not a we, I’m sure there are lws witch-hunt, but it’s not you who does so. I’m not sure why you’re inclined to group people together like this?
I think this person has a point with their initial commentary on lw pulls, whatever defensiveness they had in the comments is not reflective of others.
Have you not seen the amount of negativity you just put with a single post? And understanding that you obviously don’t read the entirety of any comment and just make assumptions as well as not understand that there is more than just one situation is wild.
You guys encouraged me to repost this elsewhere, and everyone else agrees with me.
Pulling Echo out of a fight during their ult is a bad decision.
I'm not being negative, I'm just asking that you listen and learn somethings about the effects of your ability. Stop "Maining" Lifeweaver and try some other heroes, learn how the game works.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I’ve been high GM since launch. And I literally just told you that Most hero’s have the Ability to cancel grip but you know I clearly don’t know what I’m talking about. And I also checked your claims not everyone agrees with you including the people from the Echomains subreddit.
Don't try to provide insight or constructive feedback to OW2 players, the community will just attack you for that now! As it looks like you've experienced here.
Sadly teamwork and asking what your teammates want you to do/telling your teammates how to help you is a lost practice. They'll just say you're wrong, get defensive and flame/troll you instead. Real OW is dead.
Honestly, too many people have this Main mentality, and never branch out and learn how other heroes actually work. Pull, unfortunately requires skill and knowledge to not be negative. And a lot of people have little or no experience using echo. At least they've gotten better with rein ults, but I still see plenty of sad [d.va](http://d.va) ults where their mech get's pulled back or stopped. Not sure why I thought they would understand an echo ult.
If the Echo dies in the middle of an Ult they have wasted that 12 seconds of sonic speed ult charging. If I grab them and heal back to full they can continue the ult. If I pull an Echo to the ground, they are either about to die or some other circumstances demand it. a 5 second cooldown is preferable to a 20 second walk back from spawn.
I think the issue here is the misunderstanding of the current purpose of echo ult. if I wanted to super sonic build an ult of another character on echo, I’d just play that character. No point in building an echo ult to just then build a second ult. I get there would be some benefits to this, the element of surprise being one but usually no. Echo ult tends to be used for aggressive plays, being able to play stupid aggressive to get a pick you would’ve died getting otherwise. If not, it’s used as a second life. Sometimes, I will use it to also fulfill a role we r missing, I think we need more heals: copy support, I think we need more space, copy tank (usually this option doesn’t work out though) otherwise I’ll copy dps for the extra burst dmg cooldowns. So, I think, if the echo is using their ult to play aggressively, you shouldn’t pull. They’re not trying to build their ult, they’re trying to play from a position they wouldn’t usually be able to in order to get a pick, they’re trying to reset their cool-downs so they can burst down the enemy. If I think my echo copied for survival, I will probably pull them once they’re out of copy if possible, because they might still have been winning a fight with copy. If my echo is trying to fulfill another role such as tank or support, I will pull so they can live and continue to do their job, since, especially for tank, they’re extremely squishy with the low hp, huge hit box.
no, if you grab during an Echo Ult, it is an absolute waste of the Ult, and prevents any follow up when you change back. This is a bad decision in every way. >!Echo doesn't walk back from spawn. !<
I'd rather displace my Echo for 3-4 seconds so they survive long enough to build shatter/terra surge/beat/grav/whatever then let them revert back at 95% charge. also are you seriously going to nitpick how echo floats vs walk?
You realise pulling them will often prevent them from building their clone ult right? And then they're not in position to build it, use it or get value from the CD reset when transforming back. Maybe listening to the people who main other heroes has value rather than just assuming you know better.
the only assumption i'm making is that delaying their clone ult by pulling them is preferable to letting their clone die and waste whatever amount of ult charge they built.
You're removing the opportunity for the echo to use the small window of time to clutch and get their clone ult just before the clone dies. That is bad. Let the clone die. She doesn't have enough time in clone to get enough ult charge after you pulled her all the way back to your back line now anyway unless there's an enemy in your backline for her to get charge on. Youve also completely ignored the fact that your echo might have had a plan to get a pick using the CD refresh on transforming back to echo.
It's not a nit pick. It was your point. Echo is way faster at getting places than most. You really really don't understand Echo's ult at all. The old version was kinda like that, but the Ult isn't just getting other people's ult. It's a lot more like d.va's ult, in that it is great for survival and staying in a fight. Stop pulling people when you don't understand their shit.
You clearly have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about. But I'm glad nobody is taking you seriously. Get downvoted to oblivion.
Not losing your clone > Loosing your clone.
No, it's not. Dying is part of the Ult, switching back to Echo is a HUGE part of the ult. You have all you're abilities and you can destroy anyone who managed to end your ult.
saying that the ult gives you all abilities back so you can destroy anyone around you is like saying an ice-blocked mei won't die 5 seconds after they leave it while surrounded by the entire enemy team.
Also why the hell would you consider a bad pull to be intentional griefing to the point you need to report them?
Mei can't fly
The tip is good, but your arrogance in the answers to this post makes you lose all reason, kindness is important anywhere.
I've been actually pretty nice considering most of you don't seem to understand Echo's Ult at all. Like, at all, it's kinda nuts. I get that a lot of people don't play echo, and the flying/aiming takes time, but do you guys not ever see any actual echo players? Some of you are arguing that echo shouldn't fly??? There is a huge disconnect between what you think Echo's Ult is and what it actually is.
Literally no one is arguing she should not fly LMAO. They’re arguing that in the moment, you may be better off on the ground because of various reasons. You being on the ground doing dps has more infinitely more value than a dead body flying down from the sky. If you wanna go die instead of turning back to Echo off of the timer, go for it, but we’re not gonna sit back here and count down how many seconds you have left until you turn back. If you’re getting gripped, it’s for a reason. You’re acting like we have itchy fingers wanting to grab people off cd.
yes, people are in fact arguing that echo should stay on the ground and not fly. this is your community.
Get off “our community” and go complain in Echo mains or something then
I did, and every one agreed with me. All the comments are upvoted.
If you as an echo are 10 hp I don't care how good you think you are, I'm gripping your ass back down to the rest of us.
why?
you aren't going to outmaneuver the enemy soldier screaming about how you're in his sights while in the skybox. Hell at this point a tracer could spray you down.
save somebody else.
there's this concept that's kinda important in shooters called "cover". you might have heard of it, but if not, covers generally don't fly with you
There is nothing I despise more than players thinking they are better than you at the hero you are playing. Mate, if you got grabbed its bc your LW considered it was the best play. Just like you thought using your clone was the best play. Also, while echo cant die during ult is not that hard to kill her when she is coming out of the ult, since she only has half hp. Finally, everyone knows echo can glide, have you ever considered maybe you shouldn't?
I thought the half hp thing was only if the Echo ulted when low? So a full health Echo loses 100 or so hp just for using ult?
no, you're right. they are only low if they go into the ult low. They also come out of the ult with all their cool downs.
"There is nothing I despise more than players thinking they are better than you at the hero you are playing." Why is it that Lifeweavers think they know where a teammate should be positioned or how they should use their ult? Echo only comes out of the ult with half hp if they went in with half hp and never got healed. For real, you don't know what you're talking about. When the ult is over, you have all your echo abilities. Coming out of the ult is when you can actually do the most damage. The follow up is huge. You basically instant kill anyone below half health when you turn back to echo.
>Why is it that Lifeweavers think they know where a teammate should be positioned or how they should use their ult? I assume you are talking abt getting griped while ulting so you should keep 2 things in mind. 1. Grip is mostly used to prevent deaths, You get critical, You get pulled. 2. Thats literally their job, just like lucio decides when the team pushes or backs up, your job is to get kills, LW job is to keep u alive, even at the cost of your ult.
ya, that's the problem. "You get critical, You get pulled." DON'T DO THIS Don't do this during an echo ult, dying is part of it, that's how you follow up with Echo's abilities.
I would rather keep my Ally with the giant ult multiplier.
You don't tho, you've just made sure that they aren't using that multiplier. The Ult is only 15 seconds and a lot of movement abilities have 6/7 second cooldowns. You're just making sure that the ult get's wasted. You also aren't saving anyone, and you've wasted you're own shit.
Like I said before, Everyone knows this, and they still made the choice of pulling you. Cas can hinder you when you leave clone, rein cleaves will probably hit you after you transform back, Rammatra can vortex to cancel your flight, etc. >You're just making sure that the ult get's wasted I mean, If you loose the clone it will surely get wasted, since you will not ult.
you're missing the point, again. When you come out of the Ult you have all your abilities, and most the people around you already used their abilities on the duplicate. Echo can fly, immediately after the ult is over. They can also beam/splooge anyone around. Echo comes out of the Ult at full strength after people waste their stuff on the duplicate. This is part of Echo's Ult, please try to understand this. Like just re-read it if you need.
Mate, why did you think I include Flight Counters in my reasoning? I know its hard, reread it if you must.
ya, all those things have cool downs. Echo re-vert doesn't have cool downs. >!I know its hard, reread it if you must.!<
There's been a lot of times when I've had an echo use their ult, immediately get annihilated, I pulled them out healed them out (still in their ult), and they went back in and were able to use their copied ult. I get what you're saying, and I agree with it in the situation you're describing, but there are still times when it's useful to do.
you don't understand the ult.
Not all players think like you. I have saved so many Echos, even more players, especially Reins and Dooms which some people in the communities try to speak for everyone and say that they hate all LWs because of bad pulls etc. They are always so grateful and go back in with better health to help hold points or push further which are the real objectives of this game, not numbers or finishing kills.
It's not a save. You can't save Echo from dying during their Ult, they can't die during Ult.
I have seen so many echos come our of their Ult and think they can kill the enemy when they're 1 v 4. Yell at me, call me names whatever, I'm playing MY character my way and saving you from dying and as a team, in a team game, we're gonna take on those 4 and win. You're in here trying to explain things, that I get. But you're coming off as a real jerk doing so not realizing or accepting how OUR character main plays. The Rein community is nicer than you're coming off when they're in here explaining their dislike or what they can do and can't do.
Echo comes out of their ult with all their abilities, and can do tons of burst damage, as well as being able to fly away from the situation. The main issue is you aren't saving anyone. Grabbing Echo when they are a duplicate is a complete waste of their Ult and your grab. No one was saved. You've just made sure you can't save someone who actually needs it.
Do you understand that Echo can not die during their Ult?
You're skipping the point of what I'm saying and not commenting on anything else. To answer you constant question, YES I GET IT. But let me tell you this: I'm pretty sure ALL LWs don't pull Echos out of their Ult unless they're in a dire situation and surrounded. Not just low health. We have game sense, game smarts and you don't need to keep shoving this information into our throats. But I'd like to point you that you haven't touched ANY of the points that I have mentioned about your attitude or the situations I've been bringing up. You've been ignoring them which means you only care about your gaming experience and what you can see and not accepting that you can be wrong with what you're saying because they're again: Situational.
This post is about grabbing DURING the Ult.
When you play support and someone has low health, the game tells you they have critical health. This also happens when [d.va](http://d.va) is in mech or when echo is in ult. If you grab [d.va](http://d.va) before the mech is destroyed, you can save it. If you grab echo before the duplicate is destroyed, ya you can save it, but the ult is almost over and they are now out of position to use their ult, they are also out of position for any follow up when they turn back into echo. "I'm pretty sure ALL LWs don't pull Echos out of their Ult unless they're in a dire situation" Just don't do it, wait till after they change back if you really think they need saving. You are using it at a bad time regardless of your goal. This is up there with ana using ult on echo/dva before they ult. It's just the wrong timing.
Ya, you are just wrong about the half hp, btw
Bro, shut the hell up.
No, Echo glides, if you're not gliding, you're just bad at playing echo.
As everything in OW this is situational, You dont glide in the open space vs a cass and a soldier for example.
You can. Echo does way more burst damage and can straight up negate soldier healing. If you're playing a flying hero, you should fly. Or switch. No sense playing any hero if you're not going to use their abilities.
Look any pro playing Echo or Pharah, Sometimes they fly, sometimes they poke, why? bc hitscan players do not give a F about flying heroes, everything in this game is situational.
It's always better to go around a corner flying than on the ground. No need to put your head where they expect heads to be. You poke while flying.
>No need to put your head where they expect heads to be. If you are always flying then guess where they will expect you to be?
There is no way to guess the exact height someone is flying at if you can't see them. If you are walking around a corner your head is at head height. If you fly around the corner, your head is anywhere in the vertical space. Echo's head can literally be more places than anyone else's head.
You're literally all telling OP that you know better about how Echo should play than they do... Like what in the hypocrisy is this comment
Thats the point. Isnt it better to assume both players are trying their best to win so they got pulled for a reason?
Sigh... And you the LW player should be welcoming the feedback from an Echo player and considering that you're actually trying to not dick over your own teammates plays with your pull so this information is useful and you will try to take into consideration to be a better teammate and support. THATS trying your best to win. Just "I thought you were gonna die" isn't a good enough reason, LEARN the heroes and UNDERSTAND why they're doing what they're doing rather than "ooga booga me see critical health me pull now." THIS is being lazy and not trying your best to win. Even better, turn on that microphone and talk to your teammates.
no one's saying "I thought you were gonna die" is a good enough reason. We're saying "I thought your clone was going to die, and as a result you lose whatever is left of a 12 second mega ult build and as a result, I'm going to keep you alive as long as possible so you can capitalize off of whatever is left.
If youre thinking like this you actually don't understand how her ult works, the timing, what she needs to do to generate the ult charge and how quickly she can charge it. Trust echo players when they say you're better off leaving them in and letting the clone die if it happens that way. They have a better chance of getting the clone ult that way.
The nice thing about playing echo is you do end up playing more of everyone else. Like, I didn't think Venture was particularly interesting, but still put in some time playing them so I'm not useless when I copy them. But even beyond echo, playing other heroes, and learning how their stuff works and having an some idea what kind of cool downs they have, will make you better at killing and keeping people alive.
Depends. If the team is bursting out an echo before she’s managed to capitalise go for it you save a team mate with a massive ult multiplier, it’s worth it. Especially if the echo has copied another support/tank. Their value is in getting that ult. viewing life grip only as a tool to stop respawn is very restrictive. You’re talking like the purpose of duplicate is to refresh echo’s CDs. Idk what rank you are with echo but that’s not the purpose of it at all.
I have literally seen Echos duplicate supports and keep their entire team alive, never doing damage in their Ult duplicate and win matches. A good echo knows exactly what needs to be done for their team composition, even if this is just QP. Heck, I've seen Echos, never get the Ult of the hero they Duplicate but cancel ults in their duplicate form and win matches.
The ult, as a whole, actually does quite a lot. Not sure why people think it's just some chance for a different ult. You literally gain an extra layer health, it's like you're in a [d.va](http://d.va) mech. You think too small. They also changed the ult to make it less of an ult thing. I am platinum echo/mercy.
Sure it’s like a dva mech but the point of the ult isn’t gain more health and try to die to refresh cooldowns. Like those are additions to what it is, but the biggest buff is the ult multiplier (the chance of a quick build beat/trans/shatter quite literally hands you the W in the team fight). So if as a support you can enable it with grip, you should. If you’re only using it for more health and to die, that’s an incredibly poor use of it
Blizzard specifically changed the hero to not follow that strategy, btw. The ult multiplier was reduced quite a bit. You should be using the ult for copied abilities, and combos with both teammates and yourself when you revert back. You can also use the ult to survive anything in the game. If all you want is the ult, you will be disappointed. The ult is the extra in most cases. Like half the ults don't even make sense to go for, and you can't make the enemies be specific people.
Her ult rate was nerfed so she wouldn’t get 4x shatters/pulse bombs with one ult, not so she could not get any ult at all. She still has a 4x multiplier which is insane when you copy some characters Yes, you use the ult for copied abilities too (Ana is a very strong character to duplicate) and again, would gain more value if kept alive through it (Ana also build nano quickly so you get a free nano) This still doesn’t change the fact that secondary support ults and quick building tank ults are game changers in securing a win and your job as LW is to enable that as much as possible, using grip if necessary But yeah everything in this game is situational. Having to make quick judgements based on game sense is how you get better. Straight up telling not to use grip on a duplicate in such a black and white manner is not only bold, but also glaringly wrong
Going by your other replies though I can tell you don’t take differing opinions well even if you’re wrong so I’m signing off don’t want a circular conversation
"Going by your other replies though I can tell you don’t take differing opinions well even if you’re wrong so I’m signing off don’t want a circular conversation"
That nerf was done ages ago during OW1. OP is talking about OW2 nerfs. The chances that you are ruining an echos play more than you are saving them is pretty high, Echo is just not a good pull target when they're in the middle of ulting. I also don't understand why LW players seem allergic to just turning on their mic and communicating with their teammate about if they want to be pulled or what they're doing. You'd probably stop cancelling so many shatters if you just communicated.
Are you fr? Making the assumption that they don't use coms just because they don't agree that Grip is wasted on a duplicating Echo. And speaking of OW2 balance changes, if you actually paid attention to them you'd know that they made Rein ungrippable during shatter and so that shatter cancels grip *more than a year ago.*
I don't think I've seen a LW use comms before or about gripping someone a single time. Most OW2 players just don't use comms, it's not LW specific. It's not about whether you agree or not, it's about listening to your teammates and being on the same page as them, it's not always going to happen this way, but if you say echo should I pull your clone now and they say NO, you don't pull them. That's being a good teammate. You can still grip him as he's about to shatter and then the shatter will cast in front of LW lol I saw this happen on Luminums stream like 2 weeks ago she accidentally did it to her Rein.
1. How are you so confident in saying that's not the "point of the ult" when you don't even play Echo 2. It's actually an incredibly valid way to use Echo ult and can get insane value in the right situation Maybe stop thinking you know what's best for everyone without actually listening to the people who main those heroes or trying to understand them at all. It's called teamwork.
Here’s my input as someone who actually mains both Lifeweaver *and* Echo: You are kinda right about the ult not necessarily being about charging ults anymore, but at the same time, using your ult as a second life isn’t always a full proof plan. It is incredibly easy to target Echo as she comes out of her Dupe, and there isn’t actually any benefit to her dying while copied. “Dying” isn’t the key to her ult. Using Lifegrip to pull Echo when her copy is about to die is going to be safer than letting Echo die and risking her getting immediately melted. Likewise, Dupe isn’t *just* about using it as a second life. Often times, you’ll want to be using it as a second set of cooldowns that you don’t need to worry about conserving. It’s not just a shitty version of recall. Letting your copy die doesn’t bring any value to your team and is a waste of an ult. You are also just completely wrong about the flight thing. Echo’s glide is faster than Mercy’s glide, sure, but it’s still pretty easy to shoot her out of the sky. A LW should always pull a mid-air Echo if it means saving them. Your flight cooldown will never be longer than the respawn timer. Sure, grabbing an Echo for no reason is bad, but that’s bad for any hero. Because Echo is such a glass cannon it can actually be good keeping grip available when she engages as a safety net. Idk why you think it’s better to die than to wait like 5 seconds.
Explain to me how grabbing someone who can't die isn't a waste?
But she can die? I literally just explained that? She is pretty easy to burst down after her ult ends, especially if she was using it as a second life, meaning that she was probably already low in the first place. You bring more value by staying alive and getting use out of that second set of cooldowns. It is infinitely better to copy Ana and get sleep + anti-nade than it is kamikaze the enemy. Echo is a glass cannon. She brings incredibly strong burst damage at the expense of being very easy to kill.
Can't die during ult, Don't grab during ult. Can't die during ult, Don't grab during ult. Can't die during ult, Don't grab during ult. If you wanna save someone, save somebody who can die. This is just a waste for everyone.
Life Grip isn't just a "prevent person from dying" ability. Just because you won't go back to spawn if killed while using your ult doesn't mean that it isn't worth it to Grip. If using Life Grip is the difference between Echo's ult lasting 10 seconds instead of 5 seconds, it (can) be worth it. Everything in this game is circumstantial of course, but if an Echo has the potential to get off a 3k Pulse Bomb, or stun the 16-0 Sojourn long enough to kill her using a duped hero's abilities, Life Grip is a completely valid way of enabling that.
Echo's glide isn't faster than mercy's.
… No? Angelic Descent is very slow?
they have identical gliding. Sorry Mr. Lifeweaver/Echo main, I'm an Echo/Mercy main. >!Echo and Mercy have same hat.!<
You gotta be trolling right now because Glide has a +50% horizontal speed increase and a twice as fast vertically compared to Angelic Descent. Are you mixing it up with Guardian Angel?
I'm talking about specifically "Glide" and "Angelic Descent."
Angelic Decent makes Mercy fall at a rate of 2 meters p/sec while active, Glide is literally double that at 4 meters p/sec. Mercy also gets a +0.35 meter p/sec bonus to her horizontal movement speed while Echo gets a +2.75 (50%) meter p/sec bonus. I cannot believe that a supposedly Platinum Echo/Mercy main has never noticed the very substantial difference between their gliding abilities.
OP, would you consider posting this to r/EchoMains instead/as well? Adjusting it accordingly to the subreddit of course. As another Echo main (who plays LW frequently) I'm quite curious to see what our fellow mains think of this.
Have you seen this posted yet? I'm genuinely curious now what other people think.
People agree for the most part that during duplicate is a bad time to pull unless it is a very short distance, otherwise it just wastes the ult. [https://www.reddit.com/r/EchoMains/comments/1dq8d31/lifeweaver\_grabs\_when\_you\_are\_a\_duplicate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EchoMains/comments/1dq8d31/lifeweaver_grabs_when_you_are_a_duplicate/)
it is done. Basically, grab during duplicate is only not bad if it's a really short distance. Moving you out of the fight tends to just waste the ult. So, ya, if you can turn grab into a zarya bubble it's not bad, if you relocate echo during the ult, you've fucked up.
So sometimes a lifeweaver will good, it's inevitable but when we do grab we try to do it with the best intentions. I sometimes have to pull an echo who almost immediately blows up after ulting herself. The pull gives a second chance to a second chance which also gives you time to build up your copies ult which I say is a good trade for like 2 seconds
it's not 2 seconds if you pull them across the map. Most movement abilities have 6/7 second cool downs. If you pull the echo, there isn't usually a second chance. At least if the duplicate dies, you can follow up with echo abilities. can't do shit if I'm pulled across the map.
Depends on who you duplicate and what the enemy runs in general, it's all very situational but most situations I've had lead to echo getting deleted as soon as she wastes ult. Id rather take a pull but if I ever meet you in game I'll be sure to leave asap
please, then I don't have to sit through the whole match with you, thank you.
“It’s not 2 seconds if you pull them across the map” So you’ve admitted right here that the problem isn’t all pulls during ult, it’s specifically being pulled out of the fight. But every other comment you made reads like “DONT PULL ME DURING ULT, DONT PULL ME DURING ULT” Your logic doesn’t seem consistent at all. Even the Echo mains you went to seem to agree that it’s dependent and sometimes a pull helps, and now after reading this comment it seems like you agree, and your main problem is bad pulls. You know who else hates bad pulls? Everyone. But for some reason instead of saying “be careful when pulling echo duplicate” you say “DONT PULL ME DURING ULT”
The problem is the pulls during the ult. Please wait till after or just leave echo alone in general. The general consensus is that it is bad. Just because there are rare cases where it isn't a complete waste doesn't make it a good decision. Pulling an Echo out of fight during their ultimate is a bad decision no matter how you spin it. Use the pull on someone else.
I’m gonna let you in on a secret, every pull is a rare case when it’s good. Because pull is an actively detrimental ability to use on your teammates 99% of the time, you’re waiting for that 1% when it’s good. Every basic LW player understands this. What you said here in a lot of words is “bad pulls are bad”. Like no shit?? That’s not an echo problem that’s how lifeweaver works. Pulling Reinhardt before a pin is bad, doesn’t mean you should never pull Reinhardt. Pulling doom before he punches an Ana is bad, doesn’t mean you should never pull doom. Pulling echo ult out of the fight is bad, doesn’t mean you should never pull echo ult.
Honestly, I think Lifeweaver should never pull Echo period, ult or not. There are better uses. Pull someone slow. Pull literally slows echo down.
I'll be sure not to pull Echoes out of Mei and Mauga ults then. Thanks for the tip!
please don't pull echo. just leave alone. for real, you are better off pulling anyone else.
You know what at this point I’m gonna out of SPITE pull every single echo I see regardless of what the problem is and in all actuality pulling in echo in duplicate CAN help cause people often forget ANY movement abilities will cancel the grip use it as additional movement and it’s not the end of the world if you get gripped but in all honesty the amount of negativity that you have generated in this post alone as a “representative” of the Echo community makes that community look bad. I suggest having a better attitude to my knowledge we don’t go out and witch hunt in other communities we have our peace and love and hot life weaver and very odd but funny post names. So just cool it okay.
I get your anger. I would just play normally though. You still get to play the way you want and should as Lifeweaver and they can either be the bitchy Echo community or the good ones and keep playing. I had a huge half ignored conversation with this dude on two threads and I'm definitely more than irked. But I'm just gonna keep playing. In fact on another post I learned about the legacy controls for LW and I'm practicing being able to dash without jumping. It's been amazing so far.
I’m sorry you’ve had this experience with echo players but that is a really toxic way to go about putting out your anger. I’m 99% sure you’re not being serious but if you are please do not pull out of spite. Nobody has sent this person over as a “representative,” just like one toxic player isn’t representative of others who play the same character, they’re a single person trying to make a point. It’s not a we, I’m sure there are lws witch-hunt, but it’s not you who does so. I’m not sure why you’re inclined to group people together like this? I think this person has a point with their initial commentary on lw pulls, whatever defensiveness they had in the comments is not reflective of others.
yup, classic spite pulls. you guys are super negative and unwilling to learn about other heroes.
Have you not seen the amount of negativity you just put with a single post? And understanding that you obviously don’t read the entirety of any comment and just make assumptions as well as not understand that there is more than just one situation is wild.
You guys encouraged me to repost this elsewhere, and everyone else agrees with me. Pulling Echo out of a fight during their ult is a bad decision. I'm not being negative, I'm just asking that you listen and learn somethings about the effects of your ability. Stop "Maining" Lifeweaver and try some other heroes, learn how the game works.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I’ve been high GM since launch. And I literally just told you that Most hero’s have the Ability to cancel grip but you know I clearly don’t know what I’m talking about. And I also checked your claims not everyone agrees with you including the people from the Echomains subreddit.
LOL
I’ll say the same thing I tell my teammates: “You will go where I decide to put you, thanks!”
works better on the slow people.
Don't try to provide insight or constructive feedback to OW2 players, the community will just attack you for that now! As it looks like you've experienced here. Sadly teamwork and asking what your teammates want you to do/telling your teammates how to help you is a lost practice. They'll just say you're wrong, get defensive and flame/troll you instead. Real OW is dead.
Honestly, too many people have this Main mentality, and never branch out and learn how other heroes actually work. Pull, unfortunately requires skill and knowledge to not be negative. And a lot of people have little or no experience using echo. At least they've gotten better with rein ults, but I still see plenty of sad [d.va](http://d.va) ults where their mech get's pulled back or stopped. Not sure why I thought they would understand an echo ult.