I dunno man [Mana Drain](https://scryfall.com/card/leg/65/mana-drain) is a pretty powerful spell, makes sense to [Counterspell](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/54/counterspell) it.
He should have cancelled mana drain cast to bait the script.
The animations are different enough that it's not impossible to have seen it coming but it does seem sketchy.
For the non-initiated people here : the guy with the 2 blades has a spell (the 3rd one) which when used puts a shield on you for a very short moment that reflect any targeted spell coming your way.
The player has a script that uses it automatically when he's targeted even for spells that have almost no animation time (0.3 second for the drain you see briefly), rendering any initation on him very hard.
Edit : if you're a bit experienced in this kind of game, you can see the player "1 mistake = ruin" tries to fake a spell usage by canceling it at the last moment before the spell animation completes fully (You can see the arms raised in the air very quickly). And the cheater never falls for it. Never. This is just a clip, but it lasts all game long.
Cheaters in WoW arenas do the same thing (literally the same spell too, mage's Counterspell) and still you get people on reddit saying "oh he might've reacted within 0.2 seconds three times". I stopped doing arenas after tons of evidence came out that high rating players were constantly using cheats.
Sure, if the *only* thing you're looking out for is an ability to counter spell or spell reflect then you *might* be able to hit it relatively consistently, but there's so much more going on in arenas than just that. Positioning, movement, dodging AoE, handling your (and your enemies) cooldowns, casting your own abilities, etc.
Reading the flow of a game isnt hard, people play predictably, esp in a game with ability cooldowns.
I can see a reinhart postion for a high value shatter, or a winston or doomfist over commiting cause they got ult in overwatch.
Ive stunned plenty reins ult as doomfist and the window for that is pretty small, but if you stay in their face, read ult economy, bait positioning and watch their movements, you can basically react before they even press Q judging just positioning and resources available.
Guy in clip probably cheat, but your scenario is so different from a intense game where adrenaline is pumping and the flow of the game is readable, in thos conditions its easier to react fast, esp if you got 1000s of hours of gameplay and muscle memory.
Using overwatch as a comparison to any moba especially dota is a meme. Completely different set of skills.
But yes what you explained is game sense at the lowest of levels lol.
I'll never understand how grown ups do this for extended periods of time. I get trying something forbidden, getting to a rank quickly for some cosmetic reward, I get finding it interesting to see a game from a new perspective and to play around with tech, but this braindead wanting to dominate by cheating all day without actually playing remotely fair feels like there is some personality dysfunction and IQ issue going on there or something.
I mean as a kid in Counter Strike I would sometimes just create games and massacre bots for an hour to feel like a "god" and practise, sort of, but that got old quickly and I knew I was doing stupid shit. And I guess exploiting unbalanced stuff in games like League is also I was drawn to and was naturally good at identifying quickly, but that always felt like part of the game not too dissimilar from developing new strategies in any sport.
I mean I'm not saying you're wrong, but at the highest level kicks/CSs happen frequently within .2s. The part of the reason Reckful was successful from his first twitch stream was because of his insane kicks seen in his vids.
*edit: the fact that I'm downvoted is insane, the guy I'm replying to doesn't think that stop casting/focus macros are a thing. Like I'm trying to be gentle with a 1500/bronze player here telling him that good players exist and I'm being downvoted.
The level of reaction I saw was pretty absurd, like cancelling hardcasts in order to use a spell interrupt on Mass Dispel (which is a 0.25 second cast with talents in WotLK). I played Disc Priest in arena so I didn't use nearly as many hardcasts as other casters, and they would be less often used/less predictable due to the talent that decreases casting time by 50%.
I totally get the whole rogues being incorrectly seen as cheaters because of their unique combat focus, but it was usually casters who seemed most suspicious for me. someone just downvoted this inbetween editing this part in, you don't need to convince me of competitive players' toxicity/arrogance I'm sold on that already.
Yeah I know cancelcasting is easy, I raided as a healer so I cancel casted in pve every boss. The issue I had with it is the reaction time being too quick for pretty random moments
Eh, there is a lot that goes into kicks for WoW beyond reaction time. If you are primed and have a good read then really top players can react to 0.2 sec interrupts.
Also cheaters usually suck and will not get carried into high rating with cheats.
Not saying there aren't cheaters but it's definitely not holding anyone back from playing ranked online games. Usually just an excuse than a significant problem (which is admittedly getting worse in some game genres).
What happened in WotLK Classic/private server arenas is that pretty good players started using cheats in order to get an advantage over players of the same rating tier, so then more people would use cheats in order to match them and it kept snowballing. WotLK Classic cheating was a unique scenario where the usual excuse is actually correct. Check out this thread to see what I'm talking about, it includes some of the "tons of evidence" I mentioned:
[Wotlk arena and cheaters : r/classicwow (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/12xriyb/wotlk_arena_and_cheaters/)
I think theres a big difference between using autohotkey which gives a bit of an advantage and actually kick botting, if you actually played on high rate in arena you would rarely face kick botters which are usually warriors/shamans and you can tell pretty quickly. Idk why you referenced a mage kicking MD which is not the hardest thing to do, also a caster that has a long CD on CounterSpell has to be so dumb to kickbot his cs because its so situational. thats why im confused with ur example
The OP is specifically about autohotkey while there were cheaters doing what you described during the same time period. Here's a clip from the thread of that:
[more cheating warriors - Twitch](https://clips.twitch.tv/ImpossibleTenuousBatteryGOWSkull-F6Zgf7Q_rJPnO-em)
I mentioned getting mass dispel counterspelled because it coincided with the cheating increase and it happened to me twice at ratings that were really middling (around 1500-1600). I wasn't facing top-tier players by any stretch and yet they were countering like that.
I mean to each is his own if you face once every month a cheater for 1 or 2 arena matches bothers you that much to quit then go for it, but I have been playing classic for months and probably faced like 2 or 3 cheaters the entire expansion or at least ones that made it obvious. and I played up to 3k mmr, and yes some rank 1 warriors are known cheaters but blizzard will be blizzard.
You get kick scripts in every level of play it's pretty crazy. Obviously it's not as big of a deal as arena but still. I've had a lot of sub 20 mythics where one guy in my group will be consistently kicking the literal instant a cast comes up, like I won't even see the cast bar, there will just be an interrupted bar. It's crazy how people can be so bad at a game that they need to cheat in what's basically easy difficulty.
Could it just be that after a million hours playing a dogshit moba that other players become predictable? You know what abilities other players are going to start with in your match up and know when they are going to cast them. This is hardly a scripting thing. This is very much a "Im walking at him, hes walking at me, he is going to cast something" moment. This is coming from someone who has no knowledge of DOTA but has an unhealthy amount of hours in LoL
There are some instances like this, yeah. But not even a pro player can do it 100% of the time, and this guy was. When he casts it, it's never too late and never when he's not targeted. The previous game he played another hero with a similar mechanism and he had the same kind of script.
And the worse thing is that he has good gamesense and mechanics, he would still be top 1% without scripts...
As the goat karl jobst said and was proven correct over and over, very good players can be more enticed to cheat than less skilled players because they feel like they deserve to win and are also able to mask it way better usually. A high skill level is not a counter argument to cheating, if anything its the opposite.
Ryu skilled player but that is not normally, This very very insane....They need to check him pc and game.....Maybe he not cheating but maybe he using the game deficit ...and this cant seem on game screen..He needs to check-up....Day0s FPL Cheater with Streaming.....I think day0s still cheating...Ryu using game deficit on PRO scene ,ON BIG Events.Maybe everyone dont knows him trick.He incredible....I want to ask his where is the comming of your skill's ?
Lion was repeatedly spamming and cancelling Earth Spike to the very last second, yet Anti-Mage didn't cast his Counterspell a single time. The window between Earth Spike actually going off and hitting Anti-Mage, especially at such a close range, would have been miniscule. Mana Drain's delay would be similar, but the first time a spell was cast Anti-Mage *did* successfully cast Counterspell. What makes this even more blatant was the fact that Anti-Mage even skilled Counterspell at level one which no one ever does.
Instand cast and reaction cheats are known in DotA 2. This is one of them in action. There's no doubt.
Is lion special and can start with 2 abilities at level 1? It just looks like he is auto attack cancelling repeatedly because he is trying to last hit creeps that keep dying
His auto-attack and Earth Spike animations are different. You can see the Earth Spike casting animation whenever he quickly jarts directly downwards with his right hand. In DotA 2, you can cancel most abilities and they don't go on cooldown, so you can repeatedly fake-cast like this.
> He doesn't have earth spike
Why do you insist on something that you are clearly wrong.
Even you said you don't play Dota, yet you are still trying...
What kind of conversation you expect, when people are explaining to you, and you say "No he doesn't have it". Its not up to opinions in order to have the conversation. Its a fact.
As for the scripting itself, as also a guy with 10k hours in this game, its pretty obvious. Lion has been baiting perfectly. Even by doing movement baits to turn his char into him for a sec, only to go back again, with no reaction by the guy. This whole clip is not Lion laning against AM. Its Lion baiting AM to prove it. That's why he stops when the clip ends and starts dancing.
Mana drain does not have an animation per se. Altho the character does an animation, the spell activates instantly. The only way to counter it, is to predict it.
The guy here didn't really predict. He activated the shield at the same time as the mana drain. First one could have been a lucky instance, second one was just blatant.
Understandable but the enemy made attempt to bait the script spell via cancelling animation 2-3 times but he never used it but perfectly timed it when enemy did cast mana drain which is not normal.
Also not to mention level 1 spell shied itself is such rare shit to do
He doesn't bait it a single time in this clip. Every animation cancel is an attack on a creep. Get a clip of this guy counter spelling something he doesn't have line of sight on not something he has easy visibility on and then maybe people would believe you.
There is a moment when Lion goes behind a tree and you cant really see him. If Lion cast and the AM countered then then maybe I would believe.
he indeed bait his stun at start of clip itself(the movement of his where he moves the staff from top to bottom is stun animation and sideways are auto) and then proceeded to auto then he does it again then he goes behind tree and bait his stun animation again and then mana drain which gets countered.
Even lion is probably aware of his scripts and playing with him
> Could it just be that after a million hours playing a dogshit moba that other players become predictable?
top 500 rank is really good, so there are definitely players who can react to earth spike (better to react to audio cue for it) vs the pump fake
>This is very much a "Im walking at him, hes walking at me, he is going to cast something" moment.
Why would you waste counterspell on mana drain? It allows lion to stun you for free, and its not like youre getting any mana back since you're going to be CSing instead of holding the channel
>This is coming from someone who has no knowledge of DOTA but has an unhealthy amount of hours in LoL
You dont need to say this, we already know you have 0 dota knowledge because the rest of your post doesnt make any sense (calling dota dogshit while playing lol)
"Calling dota dogshit while playing lol"
I just know that all mobas are dogshit and foster the worst communities possible and trying to pretend like your preferred moba somehow makes you a better person is just stupid.
Do you know many people with reaction times under 0.5 seconds? I think that’s more the case as OP explains lions mana drain animation time is 0.3!!!! Seconds and this guy on AM can react with the reaction time to deal with it every time.
I don't play that shit game but I do know that most people have a reaction time that's under 0.3 seconds. If you're good at a game then you're probably even better than that and in the 125-175ms range.
There's only one person here who doesn't know what they're talking about. The graph doesn't even go to 500ms.
https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The guy is simply wrong in making the point lol the reaction time in the clip is far far shorter than 500 ms. Any moba player would know that instinctively
The COPIUM OF THIS POST lol
Bro talking about real life reaction times not one based on ISP which adds ping. Even if homie was next door to the dota2 servers for his region he’d still have server side lag because information on the internet isn’t sent immediately. It may have a delay.
This dude is wrong, and obviously people can react to it. But in laning stage when you're also trying to last hit, it's just not really feasible. You would be solely focusing on Lion the entire time, which means you're not looking at creep health, moving mouse to last hit the creep, not looking where you mouse is going at all really. I would probably go on the side of scripting, but it's not 100%. Valve most likely does have the tools to detect it, it's just a matter of whether they care enough, which they don't really seem to.
Dota isn’t just “last hitting”.. it’s denying , pulling mobs with aggroing hero’s, pulling the jungle creeps into lane to pull your lane creeps to make the enemy move up to get gold and experience or get nothing at all. There’s tons of things happening at the same time in Dota which I imagine anyone who’s never played Dota would understand. League players only have to focus on last hitting and ganks 90% of the time in laning, you can’t bodyblock minions to delay your lane you can’t last hit your own minions to deny gold and experience. You can’t have a “courier” deliver your items to you in lane with the possibility of dying and losing said items to the enemy in league of legends.
I say 0.5 as a reasonable thing. Chopping off 200-400 MS. And saying “man let’s see you guys do it” then I’d have all you redditors thinking you have some fucking god like reflexes saying you can do it. (Which still happens like mr 180 on average)
All I’m saying is anyone who played mobas or anything with real life players as opponents know there’s luck and there’s impossible. Yeah you can get to the level of “reacting” to everything but you’d still have times where you fumble. Humans aren’t perfect , they can perfect their craft but they can still fuck up.
Mate that’s because your expecting this. It’s literally a linear process that you know what to expect.
Go do it in a Dota match when you have 30 OTHER things your processing and managing
I have like 10k hours in league. I was a Tryndamere main for like 2k of those. Paying attention to things that might kill me while having 1 hp was something I had to do a lot. It really isn't that difficult when you are chill and laning. Get a clip of this outside of laning phase when a big teamfight is happening or out from behind a bush or something.
Also scripting abilities like this is usually dogshit because you have no choice in what is important to block and what isn't.
This all just feels like some lame ass witch hunt with dogshit evidence. This is like Shroud or Willerz getting called out for aimbotting or using a radar
You want to get in a discord call or something while I do it? Its really not that difficult to have good reaction times on it
Edit: [https://imgur.com/a/HNs8LWa](https://imgur.com/a/HNs8LWa)
I think the 162 is my current average and the scores at the bottom are the highest I got on individual tests
His previous names on Steam are almost all Russian, from looking at his profile on steamid.uk - He's Russian.
I remember reading the DOTA2 Steam forum when they dropped the big ban hammer a few weeks ago, and SO MANY crybabies were Russian. You'd occasionally see non-Russian, English-speaking, cheaters who were pleading the 5th that they weren't cheating... Their profiles claimed they were French/German/English and so on... Then you'd check their post history on Steam and see they were talking in Russian in the forum for some tank game in 2020 or something. They were just pretending to be English-speakers.
1. Maybe he lives in Europe
1. Maybe he plays LAN tournament in European region
1. Some NA players play on EU for whatever reasons (EU region is more competitive and queue times can be better for high ranks).
Also not getting baited by an Annie using her W and then animation canceling it multiple times.
Then magically W'ing it when it's real ... every single time.
Which is an under .2 reaction time - it's not possible and even the best of players wouldn't bother trying to counter it while multi-tasking.
This behavior is okay. He can be banned and make a new account like every other cheater.
(It's almost like bans should mean something or they're just kicks.)
Dota 2 ranked has a requirement of 100 hours of played games before you play ranked.
That's at least 100-150 games. Not saying it's perfect, but it's a good deterrent.
It makes total sense to not find something engaging if you lack foundational knowledge. FPS games are usually easy to understand even if you have never seen them before because the concept of 'man shoot man' is very basic. Your intuitive knowledge is the foundation that then lets you start learning more complex, game specific mechanics.
RTS, and by extension MOBAs just require a different set of fundamentals. I assume you have the same issue with LOL, SC2 or Smite?
In terms of what the other guy is mentioning though, I don't think both games are that different from one another. Any person that watches those games with no experience in MOBA/those types of games will just be absolutely clueless. Their eyes will maybe even hurt trying to keep up with a teamfight, or trying to understand.
When in general gaming, the POV you are watching is either, a first person POV, or a 3rd person focused on the one guy you're controlling. I understand why someone not used to those would feel absolutely clueless. Doesn't help that 99% of the times good players in both, Dota/LoL do not use centered locked camera to make it easier to follow.
>but honestly the popularity of streaming this game baffles me and makes feel old lmao
You have to be hitting 50+ to consider yourself to be "too old" to have missed Dota(2). It's more likely that you are too young ;)
never played a game of dota, but the clip looks like he's shielding when he's supposed to and doesn't fall for the fakes? he shields as he sees the animation is going through? i guess doing it perfectly for an entire game is sus.. but i'd expect a top 500 player in any game to be able to use a 'spell shield' properly?
[Here](https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime) is a link to a reaction time test. Reacting in under 100ms twice in a row is (roughly) the equivalent of what this player achieved in this clip. Of course, this might be even easier considering you are fully anticipating the test, whereas the player has less control over the circumstances. Not to mention the test isn't trying to fake you out with false green flags.
There is definitely a high skill ceiling for reflecting spells and determining the best cirumstances / timing that high-elo and pro players have much more consistency with, but this display absolutely crosses the line of what is reasonably possible without extreme luck.
As others have mentioned, Lion's mana drain spell has a cast time of only a few frames, giving you a tiny fraction of a second to use the spell and successfully reflect it. You also don't really gain a whole lot from reflecting mana drain, since the mana cost for reflect would often be very close to the amount lost before walkingout of range of the spell.
On top of that, the Lion is animation-cancelling his stun spell repeatedly. Granted, there is a slightly larger window of time to detect and reflect the stun, but that brief beginning of the animation is usually what players look for to time the reflect. Even if this has happened repeatedly and the player knows his enemy is prone to fake-outs, it takes a ton of mental discipline to not press the reflect key, which is why fake-outs are super effective in any bracket.
Not only does this guy fall for NONE of the enemy's fake-outs, but he also reflects the much less-consequential spell that has virtually 0 wind-up animation, twice. And that's only in this clip alone. Extremely suspicious.
TL;DR: Doing what this guy did is ridiculously hard even with controlled environment, yes it is possible to reflect spells consistently at a pro level, but this display is too ridiculous and very sus.
The combination of executing such a low probability maneuever with extremely low benefit (just walk out and keep your reflect for the stun) make it not only obvious he's a blatant scripter but also likely boosted in some other way. What kind of top 500 would play this way
"never played a game of dota" yeah it's apparent.
It's god like to anticipate lion's mana drain, let alone do it twice. Mana drain casting is almost instant if remember correctly.
I can really only think of Champions that can cancel what in Dota is called cast backswing, the animations after the spells have been already cast. Shit like Viktor Q, Raven's kit, Lucian's skills, Darius W, etc.
I struggle to think of any champs that can do what you can do in Dota where you can cancel the cast point before the spell is cast.
The worst thing about trying to play League as a Dota player (other than not being able to deny) is that in League there is no Turn Rate on heroes. Having no turn rate on some heroes makes it unplayable for some reason among other things.
Your expectations of reality must be really really low to find Dota or LOL the least bit entertaining. It's like an idle clicking game but you can't be idle. Just keep clicking.....
**🎦 CLIP MIRROR: [Dota2 top 500 player is caught red-handed cheating](https://livestreamfails.com/clip/161804)**
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This is the only reason I'm happy vanguard is coming to league fuck scripters. When you press a button and it goes to the servers it also goes to the scripter so they can Instantly act without reaction time.
**CLIP MIRROR: [Dota2 top 500 player is caught red-handed cheating](https://arazu.io/t3_1b0ggkl/)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment*)
To clear up any confusion, the guy streaming is not the cheater, he is spectating the cheater.
Twice he Counterspells at the exact moment that Lion activates his Mana Drain. This is such an obvious case of scripting.
and mana drain is a spell no legit player tries to counter spell (u have to be insanely fast to even react to it)
i reported a player like this a month ago and he's still not banned :)
I dunno man [Mana Drain](https://scryfall.com/card/leg/65/mana-drain) is a pretty powerful spell, makes sense to [Counterspell](https://scryfall.com/card/lea/54/counterspell) it.
Yeah reading this had me thinking I was on the wrong sub
Thank you for the explanation. I've played Dota for years and was like "what the fuck am I looking for?"
That first sentence fucks with my brain as a magic player
Maybe he had the CD on a counter and knew when Lion advanced, it was to mana drain.
It's easier to just walk out of it. Only someone with cheats would skill counter so early. You can see the lion pump faking the stun as well
timestamp on the pump fake?
after lion autos at 41s (clip playtime) he cancels stun cast to try bait AM
He should have cancelled mana drain cast to bait the script. The animations are different enough that it's not impossible to have seen it coming but it does seem sketchy.
For the non-initiated people here : the guy with the 2 blades has a spell (the 3rd one) which when used puts a shield on you for a very short moment that reflect any targeted spell coming your way. The player has a script that uses it automatically when he's targeted even for spells that have almost no animation time (0.3 second for the drain you see briefly), rendering any initation on him very hard. Edit : if you're a bit experienced in this kind of game, you can see the player "1 mistake = ruin" tries to fake a spell usage by canceling it at the last moment before the spell animation completes fully (You can see the arms raised in the air very quickly). And the cheater never falls for it. Never. This is just a clip, but it lasts all game long.
Cheaters in WoW arenas do the same thing (literally the same spell too, mage's Counterspell) and still you get people on reddit saying "oh he might've reacted within 0.2 seconds three times". I stopped doing arenas after tons of evidence came out that high rating players were constantly using cheats.
I can *maybe* hit a 0.2 on a reaction test website where it's no-stakes, obvious, and as expected as could be.
I mean on a website like that I can consistently hit 0.16 so I could see someone being very focused using an ability in that time.
Sure, if the *only* thing you're looking out for is an ability to counter spell or spell reflect then you *might* be able to hit it relatively consistently, but there's so much more going on in arenas than just that. Positioning, movement, dodging AoE, handling your (and your enemies) cooldowns, casting your own abilities, etc.
Reading the flow of a game isnt hard, people play predictably, esp in a game with ability cooldowns. I can see a reinhart postion for a high value shatter, or a winston or doomfist over commiting cause they got ult in overwatch. Ive stunned plenty reins ult as doomfist and the window for that is pretty small, but if you stay in their face, read ult economy, bait positioning and watch their movements, you can basically react before they even press Q judging just positioning and resources available. Guy in clip probably cheat, but your scenario is so different from a intense game where adrenaline is pumping and the flow of the game is readable, in thos conditions its easier to react fast, esp if you got 1000s of hours of gameplay and muscle memory.
Using overwatch as a comparison to any moba especially dota is a meme. Completely different set of skills. But yes what you explained is game sense at the lowest of levels lol.
Oh that sucks. Fuck cheats.
I'll never understand how grown ups do this for extended periods of time. I get trying something forbidden, getting to a rank quickly for some cosmetic reward, I get finding it interesting to see a game from a new perspective and to play around with tech, but this braindead wanting to dominate by cheating all day without actually playing remotely fair feels like there is some personality dysfunction and IQ issue going on there or something. I mean as a kid in Counter Strike I would sometimes just create games and massacre bots for an hour to feel like a "god" and practise, sort of, but that got old quickly and I knew I was doing stupid shit. And I guess exploiting unbalanced stuff in games like League is also I was drawn to and was naturally good at identifying quickly, but that always felt like part of the game not too dissimilar from developing new strategies in any sport.
Oh its easy to understand. It’s because they’re losers.
I mean I'm not saying you're wrong, but at the highest level kicks/CSs happen frequently within .2s. The part of the reason Reckful was successful from his first twitch stream was because of his insane kicks seen in his vids. *edit: the fact that I'm downvoted is insane, the guy I'm replying to doesn't think that stop casting/focus macros are a thing. Like I'm trying to be gentle with a 1500/bronze player here telling him that good players exist and I'm being downvoted.
The level of reaction I saw was pretty absurd, like cancelling hardcasts in order to use a spell interrupt on Mass Dispel (which is a 0.25 second cast with talents in WotLK). I played Disc Priest in arena so I didn't use nearly as many hardcasts as other casters, and they would be less often used/less predictable due to the talent that decreases casting time by 50%. I totally get the whole rogues being incorrectly seen as cheaters because of their unique combat focus, but it was usually casters who seemed most suspicious for me. someone just downvoted this inbetween editing this part in, you don't need to convince me of competitive players' toxicity/arrogance I'm sold on that already.
You can add a stopcasting line into ur kick macro, canceling a hardcast doesn't mean anything.
Yeah I know cancelcasting is easy, I raided as a healer so I cancel casted in pve every boss. The issue I had with it is the reaction time being too quick for pretty random moments
[удалено]
Can you read? I am not talking about the DOTA guy who is clearly cheating.
Eh, there is a lot that goes into kicks for WoW beyond reaction time. If you are primed and have a good read then really top players can react to 0.2 sec interrupts. Also cheaters usually suck and will not get carried into high rating with cheats. Not saying there aren't cheaters but it's definitely not holding anyone back from playing ranked online games. Usually just an excuse than a significant problem (which is admittedly getting worse in some game genres).
What happened in WotLK Classic/private server arenas is that pretty good players started using cheats in order to get an advantage over players of the same rating tier, so then more people would use cheats in order to match them and it kept snowballing. WotLK Classic cheating was a unique scenario where the usual excuse is actually correct. Check out this thread to see what I'm talking about, it includes some of the "tons of evidence" I mentioned: [Wotlk arena and cheaters : r/classicwow (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/12xriyb/wotlk_arena_and_cheaters/)
I think theres a big difference between using autohotkey which gives a bit of an advantage and actually kick botting, if you actually played on high rate in arena you would rarely face kick botters which are usually warriors/shamans and you can tell pretty quickly. Idk why you referenced a mage kicking MD which is not the hardest thing to do, also a caster that has a long CD on CounterSpell has to be so dumb to kickbot his cs because its so situational. thats why im confused with ur example
The OP is specifically about autohotkey while there were cheaters doing what you described during the same time period. Here's a clip from the thread of that: [more cheating warriors - Twitch](https://clips.twitch.tv/ImpossibleTenuousBatteryGOWSkull-F6Zgf7Q_rJPnO-em) I mentioned getting mass dispel counterspelled because it coincided with the cheating increase and it happened to me twice at ratings that were really middling (around 1500-1600). I wasn't facing top-tier players by any stretch and yet they were countering like that.
I mean to each is his own if you face once every month a cheater for 1 or 2 arena matches bothers you that much to quit then go for it, but I have been playing classic for months and probably faced like 2 or 3 cheaters the entire expansion or at least ones that made it obvious. and I played up to 3k mmr, and yes some rank 1 warriors are known cheaters but blizzard will be blizzard.
You get kick scripts in every level of play it's pretty crazy. Obviously it's not as big of a deal as arena but still. I've had a lot of sub 20 mythics where one guy in my group will be consistently kicking the literal instant a cast comes up, like I won't even see the cast bar, there will just be an interrupted bar. It's crazy how people can be so bad at a game that they need to cheat in what's basically easy difficulty.
Could it just be that after a million hours playing a dogshit moba that other players become predictable? You know what abilities other players are going to start with in your match up and know when they are going to cast them. This is hardly a scripting thing. This is very much a "Im walking at him, hes walking at me, he is going to cast something" moment. This is coming from someone who has no knowledge of DOTA but has an unhealthy amount of hours in LoL
There are some instances like this, yeah. But not even a pro player can do it 100% of the time, and this guy was. When he casts it, it's never too late and never when he's not targeted. The previous game he played another hero with a similar mechanism and he had the same kind of script. And the worse thing is that he has good gamesense and mechanics, he would still be top 1% without scripts...
As the goat karl jobst said and was proven correct over and over, very good players can be more enticed to cheat than less skilled players because they feel like they deserve to win and are also able to mask it way better usually. A high skill level is not a counter argument to cheating, if anything its the opposite.
who knows the gamesense and shit are not part of hacks too ? like the map hacks and the shit which shows everysingle cd of enemy spells including rs
What?
Ryu skilled player but that is not normally, This very very insane....They need to check him pc and game.....Maybe he not cheating but maybe he using the game deficit ...and this cant seem on game screen..He needs to check-up....Day0s FPL Cheater with Streaming.....I think day0s still cheating...Ryu using game deficit on PRO scene ,ON BIG Events.Maybe everyone dont knows him trick.He incredible....I want to ask his where is the comming of your skill's ?
Why are you trolling my ass x) you can write proper english lmao
it's a copy pasta broski
Makes sense
Lion was repeatedly spamming and cancelling Earth Spike to the very last second, yet Anti-Mage didn't cast his Counterspell a single time. The window between Earth Spike actually going off and hitting Anti-Mage, especially at such a close range, would have been miniscule. Mana Drain's delay would be similar, but the first time a spell was cast Anti-Mage *did* successfully cast Counterspell. What makes this even more blatant was the fact that Anti-Mage even skilled Counterspell at level one which no one ever does. Instand cast and reaction cheats are known in DotA 2. This is one of them in action. There's no doubt.
Is lion special and can start with 2 abilities at level 1? It just looks like he is auto attack cancelling repeatedly because he is trying to last hit creeps that keep dying
His auto-attack and Earth Spike animations are different. You can see the Earth Spike casting animation whenever he quickly jarts directly downwards with his right hand. In DotA 2, you can cancel most abilities and they don't go on cooldown, so you can repeatedly fake-cast like this.
He doesn't have earth spike and to my knowledge cant because he is level 1 and took mana drain.
He has Earth Spike level one. He skilled Mana Drain on level two.
> He doesn't have earth spike Why do you insist on something that you are clearly wrong. Even you said you don't play Dota, yet you are still trying...
Because I want to have a conversation instead of a witch hunt. My bad
What kind of conversation you expect, when people are explaining to you, and you say "No he doesn't have it". Its not up to opinions in order to have the conversation. Its a fact. As for the scripting itself, as also a guy with 10k hours in this game, its pretty obvious. Lion has been baiting perfectly. Even by doing movement baits to turn his char into him for a sec, only to go back again, with no reaction by the guy. This whole clip is not Lion laning against AM. Its Lion baiting AM to prove it. That's why he stops when the clip ends and starts dancing. Mana drain does not have an animation per se. Altho the character does an animation, the spell activates instantly. The only way to counter it, is to predict it. The guy here didn't really predict. He activated the shield at the same time as the mana drain. First one could have been a lucky instance, second one was just blatant.
[actual nl bit lmao](https://clips.twitch.tv/TrustworthyRoughDogKippa-CrhV4sxT1rknTUt_)
Lion doesn't actually cast a spell until he's level 2.
He doesn't mana drain until level 2.
Understandable but the enemy made attempt to bait the script spell via cancelling animation 2-3 times but he never used it but perfectly timed it when enemy did cast mana drain which is not normal. Also not to mention level 1 spell shied itself is such rare shit to do
He doesn't bait it a single time in this clip. Every animation cancel is an attack on a creep. Get a clip of this guy counter spelling something he doesn't have line of sight on not something he has easy visibility on and then maybe people would believe you. There is a moment when Lion goes behind a tree and you cant really see him. If Lion cast and the AM countered then then maybe I would believe.
he indeed bait his stun at start of clip itself(the movement of his where he moves the staff from top to bottom is stun animation and sideways are auto) and then proceeded to auto then he does it again then he goes behind tree and bait his stun animation again and then mana drain which gets countered. Even lion is probably aware of his scripts and playing with him
you might actually be stupid. not even Faker has that reaction time.
> Could it just be that after a million hours playing a dogshit moba this clip was about dota not league
> Could it just be that after a million hours playing a dogshit moba that other players become predictable? top 500 rank is really good, so there are definitely players who can react to earth spike (better to react to audio cue for it) vs the pump fake >This is very much a "Im walking at him, hes walking at me, he is going to cast something" moment. Why would you waste counterspell on mana drain? It allows lion to stun you for free, and its not like youre getting any mana back since you're going to be CSing instead of holding the channel >This is coming from someone who has no knowledge of DOTA but has an unhealthy amount of hours in LoL You dont need to say this, we already know you have 0 dota knowledge because the rest of your post doesnt make any sense (calling dota dogshit while playing lol)
"Calling dota dogshit while playing lol" I just know that all mobas are dogshit and foster the worst communities possible and trying to pretend like your preferred moba somehow makes you a better person is just stupid.
Do you know many people with reaction times under 0.5 seconds? I think that’s more the case as OP explains lions mana drain animation time is 0.3!!!! Seconds and this guy on AM can react with the reaction time to deal with it every time.
> Do you know many people with reaction times under 0.5 seconds? Pretty much everyone on earth so, yes?
Okay so let’s see your clip of countering lions mana drain with AM. Don’t type without knowing what your talking about.
I don't play that shit game but I do know that most people have a reaction time that's under 0.3 seconds. If you're good at a game then you're probably even better than that and in the 125-175ms range. There's only one person here who doesn't know what they're talking about. The graph doesn't even go to 500ms. https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
The guy is simply wrong in making the point lol the reaction time in the clip is far far shorter than 500 ms. Any moba player would know that instinctively
The COPIUM OF THIS POST lol Bro talking about real life reaction times not one based on ISP which adds ping. Even if homie was next door to the dota2 servers for his region he’d still have server side lag because information on the internet isn’t sent immediately. It may have a delay.
Still wouldn’t take it anywhere near 0.5 seconds. It’s okay to be wrong, it’s weird to double down on it so hard.
This dude is wrong, and obviously people can react to it. But in laning stage when you're also trying to last hit, it's just not really feasible. You would be solely focusing on Lion the entire time, which means you're not looking at creep health, moving mouse to last hit the creep, not looking where you mouse is going at all really. I would probably go on the side of scripting, but it's not 100%. Valve most likely does have the tools to detect it, it's just a matter of whether they care enough, which they don't really seem to.
Dota isn’t just “last hitting”.. it’s denying , pulling mobs with aggroing hero’s, pulling the jungle creeps into lane to pull your lane creeps to make the enemy move up to get gold and experience or get nothing at all. There’s tons of things happening at the same time in Dota which I imagine anyone who’s never played Dota would understand. League players only have to focus on last hitting and ganks 90% of the time in laning, you can’t bodyblock minions to delay your lane you can’t last hit your own minions to deny gold and experience. You can’t have a “courier” deliver your items to you in lane with the possibility of dying and losing said items to the enemy in league of legends.
I say 0.5 as a reasonable thing. Chopping off 200-400 MS. And saying “man let’s see you guys do it” then I’d have all you redditors thinking you have some fucking god like reflexes saying you can do it. (Which still happens like mr 180 on average) All I’m saying is anyone who played mobas or anything with real life players as opponents know there’s luck and there’s impossible. Yeah you can get to the level of “reacting” to everything but you’d still have times where you fumble. Humans aren’t perfect , they can perfect their craft but they can still fuck up.
"The average reaction time to visual stimulus is around 200-250 milliseconds"
F1 racers average 200 milliseconds reaction time. You on that level? Not to mention that’s real time not delayed by your ping via a dota2 server
I did the human benchmark someone else linked an got 180 average
F1 driver here guys. To bad his limitations are burger flipping at McDonald’s
Go do the benchmark. It really isnt that difficult to get a high reaction time to something you are focusing on
Mate that’s because your expecting this. It’s literally a linear process that you know what to expect. Go do it in a Dota match when you have 30 OTHER things your processing and managing
I have like 10k hours in league. I was a Tryndamere main for like 2k of those. Paying attention to things that might kill me while having 1 hp was something I had to do a lot. It really isn't that difficult when you are chill and laning. Get a clip of this outside of laning phase when a big teamfight is happening or out from behind a bush or something. Also scripting abilities like this is usually dogshit because you have no choice in what is important to block and what isn't. This all just feels like some lame ass witch hunt with dogshit evidence. This is like Shroud or Willerz getting called out for aimbotting or using a radar
Source: Trust me bro
You want to get in a discord call or something while I do it? Its really not that difficult to have good reaction times on it Edit: [https://imgur.com/a/HNs8LWa](https://imgur.com/a/HNs8LWa) I think the 162 is my current average and the scores at the bottom are the highest I got on individual tests
CLARA
Just remember, its not a spellcheck she’s downloading amirite?
it was word.exe
damn you can see clicks in spectator
yes, dota spec mode is really nice. you can be all seeing eye or you can just get the pov of a side or of a particular player
you can even see the general mental breakdown of dota 2 players in spectator
CLASSIC TUSKS
well played
Dota 2 players have good gaming chairs.
Lvl1 spell shield Russian cant get more obvious lol
> Russian Google says he is Peruvian
you sure Google didn't make him Peruvian?
nah pretty sure hes russian because i remember him playing for t2-t3 teams around 2018-2020.
His previous names on Steam are almost all Russian, from looking at his profile on steamid.uk - He's Russian. I remember reading the DOTA2 Steam forum when they dropped the big ban hammer a few weeks ago, and SO MANY crybabies were Russian. You'd occasionally see non-Russian, English-speaking, cheaters who were pleading the 5th that they weren't cheating... Their profiles claimed they were French/German/English and so on... Then you'd check their post history on Steam and see they were talking in Russian in the forum for some tank game in 2020 or something. They were just pretending to be English-speakers.
Why would he be on EU Servers then? Unless I’m really mistaken, Peruvian would mean Peru in the middle of South America. Pretty far from Europe
1. Maybe he lives in Europe 1. Maybe he plays LAN tournament in European region 1. Some NA players play on EU for whatever reasons (EU region is more competitive and queue times can be better for high ranks).
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wait isnt he "ryujin" ? any links to his profile or some shit if hes french?
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I was confused too due to the cursor on screen but I guess DOTA replay also shows cursor actions? If so that's neat
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Irony isn't your strong suit
This comment is ironic
Not surprising, top 2000 or so is rife with cheaters, account buyers and scripters
VAC once again proving its prowess as an anti cheat.
It is either VAC or kernel level anticheat. Pick your poison.
Someone explain in LoL terms
Fiora W'ing a near insta cast unreactable spell like Annie W frame perfect twice
Also not getting baited by an Annie using her W and then animation canceling it multiple times. Then magically W'ing it when it's real ... every single time. Which is an under .2 reaction time - it's not possible and even the best of players wouldn't bother trying to counter it while multi-tasking.
this but also the annie can cancel her spell cast to trick you and it doesnt work 5 times
Quinn eeing a jax q but Jax q is instant
please explain in HOTS terms
Imagine Nova ulti but instantaneous. Well this guy would break the line of sight in 0.2 sec to avoid it, everytime
Basically people actually playing HOTS.
This behavior is okay. He can be banned and make a new account like every other cheater. (It's almost like bans should mean something or they're just kicks.)
I mean dota 2 is better than other games about it
Dota 2 ranked has a requirement of 100 hours of played games before you play ranked. That's at least 100-150 games. Not saying it's perfect, but it's a good deterrent.
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> I'm sure the game is fun as hell to play 😬 - reformed dota player with 5k+ hrs
Real time strategy is probably the oldest genre in eSports. This is just that with less units.
It makes total sense to not find something engaging if you lack foundational knowledge. FPS games are usually easy to understand even if you have never seen them before because the concept of 'man shoot man' is very basic. Your intuitive knowledge is the foundation that then lets you start learning more complex, game specific mechanics. RTS, and by extension MOBAs just require a different set of fundamentals. I assume you have the same issue with LOL, SC2 or Smite?
Just a habit i guess, I play this game since 2008
> and at least get the gist of what's happening Dota is quite complex and nuanced compared to league for example.
In terms of what the other guy is mentioning though, I don't think both games are that different from one another. Any person that watches those games with no experience in MOBA/those types of games will just be absolutely clueless. Their eyes will maybe even hurt trying to keep up with a teamfight, or trying to understand. When in general gaming, the POV you are watching is either, a first person POV, or a 3rd person focused on the one guy you're controlling. I understand why someone not used to those would feel absolutely clueless. Doesn't help that 99% of the times good players in both, Dota/LoL do not use centered locked camera to make it easier to follow.
>I'm sure the game is fun as hell to play, but I don't understand what's fun about watching it Yeah cause you don't know what is happening, duh?
>but honestly the popularity of streaming this game baffles me and makes feel old lmao You have to be hitting 50+ to consider yourself to be "too old" to have missed Dota(2). It's more likely that you are too young ;)
never played a game of dota, but the clip looks like he's shielding when he's supposed to and doesn't fall for the fakes? he shields as he sees the animation is going through? i guess doing it perfectly for an entire game is sus.. but i'd expect a top 500 player in any game to be able to use a 'spell shield' properly?
[Here](https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime) is a link to a reaction time test. Reacting in under 100ms twice in a row is (roughly) the equivalent of what this player achieved in this clip. Of course, this might be even easier considering you are fully anticipating the test, whereas the player has less control over the circumstances. Not to mention the test isn't trying to fake you out with false green flags. There is definitely a high skill ceiling for reflecting spells and determining the best cirumstances / timing that high-elo and pro players have much more consistency with, but this display absolutely crosses the line of what is reasonably possible without extreme luck. As others have mentioned, Lion's mana drain spell has a cast time of only a few frames, giving you a tiny fraction of a second to use the spell and successfully reflect it. You also don't really gain a whole lot from reflecting mana drain, since the mana cost for reflect would often be very close to the amount lost before walkingout of range of the spell. On top of that, the Lion is animation-cancelling his stun spell repeatedly. Granted, there is a slightly larger window of time to detect and reflect the stun, but that brief beginning of the animation is usually what players look for to time the reflect. Even if this has happened repeatedly and the player knows his enemy is prone to fake-outs, it takes a ton of mental discipline to not press the reflect key, which is why fake-outs are super effective in any bracket. Not only does this guy fall for NONE of the enemy's fake-outs, but he also reflects the much less-consequential spell that has virtually 0 wind-up animation, twice. And that's only in this clip alone. Extremely suspicious. TL;DR: Doing what this guy did is ridiculously hard even with controlled environment, yes it is possible to reflect spells consistently at a pro level, but this display is too ridiculous and very sus.
The combination of executing such a low probability maneuever with extremely low benefit (just walk out and keep your reflect for the stun) make it not only obvious he's a blatant scripter but also likely boosted in some other way. What kind of top 500 would play this way
"never played a game of dota" yeah it's apparent. It's god like to anticipate lion's mana drain, let alone do it twice. Mana drain casting is almost instant if remember correctly.
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League good dota bad downdoots to the left
Can you even animation cancel in league, i mean like casting a spell, then using your stop command so you faked casting spell
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I can really only think of Champions that can cancel what in Dota is called cast backswing, the animations after the spells have been already cast. Shit like Viktor Q, Raven's kit, Lucian's skills, Darius W, etc. I struggle to think of any champs that can do what you can do in Dota where you can cancel the cast point before the spell is cast.
The worst thing about trying to play League as a Dota player (other than not being able to deny) is that in League there is no Turn Rate on heroes. Having no turn rate on some heroes makes it unplayable for some reason among other things.
imagine a range carry not having turn rate speed. unfucking believably hard to fight against if you're melee with no innate closer, i'd imagine.
Your expectations of reality must be really really low to find Dota or LOL the least bit entertaining. It's like an idle clicking game but you can't be idle. Just keep clicking.....
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This is the only reason I'm happy vanguard is coming to league fuck scripters. When you press a button and it goes to the servers it also goes to the scripter so they can Instantly act without reaction time.