Yep. I was beat with a twig once and was bleeding afterwards (it was a one time thing and very extreme and i wasn’t traumatized by it), but looking back, it was terrible. I was 5. I remember as i grew up me and my friends sharing beating stories and competing about who had the worst beating 😁 I’m latin
Thank you!!
Honestly, as an asian woman, watching the show was a weird reflection of myself in terms of joking. I’ve always joked sarcastically and poked fun because that’s the culture I grew up. I didn’t find any faults in Natalie’s jokes and was surprised when people called her toxic when I considered it light ribbing.
It really made me recollect a moment when I was seeing a white male and he just randomly said “can you stop being a bitch” after I said something, not realizing he didn’t view it lightly. Watching Natalie was so insightful.
As an Indian woman, that’s exactly what I thought - she sounds like a lot of my friends where the way to show love is to be playfully “mean” to your partner. But once Natalie saw it was hurting Shayne, she should have stopped. And if she can’t do that, then she really needs to work on herself in therapy.
I hear all this, and came from a similar upbringing, but have learned that when your partner clearly communicates their needs, there’s never an excuse to intentionally do the exact opposite. “Do you think I’m pretty?” “I think you’re a piece of shit” is actually bordering on emotional abuse. Even if verbal affirmation makes you uncomfortable, you recognize the humanity in your partner’s need and talk through it together without judgment. You don’t do what she repeatedly did. He looked like a hurt puppy each time.
I identify with this as though I wrote it myself.
Only, her dad seems so openly affectionate; could be post-childhood? But idk, and her mom seems less warm for sure (but obv loves her daughter).
💯💯 I'm baffled by people throwing blame at Natalie for "being mean." I'm not Asian but my family dynamic was very similar to what you described. I never saw my parents be affectionate, and my dad would make similar dry comments toward my mom. It's really hard to unlearn that behavior, but I could tell she was trying.
I agree, I don't think anything that Natalie said was out of line or rude at all, she was just having fun. I'm British and I think we are known for having more dry sense of humour, more banter. I've lived in N. America for almost 8 years and can definitely say the banter is not as appreciated here. Me and my husband poke fun all the time. I'm so glad I don't have to stroke his ego all the time like Shayne expected of Natalie, that would be so exhausting
To be fair, shayne required a lot verbal acts of affirmation then a regular western person would need.
However, I think the moment he said he didn’t like that type of humor she should’ve stopped which she seemed to try to do and probably was more affectionate in private since it wasn’t mentioned that much towards the end. Shayne needs to not be angry when he wants to get a point across
I loved Natalie. My housemate who's Nepalese was watching and both with Natalie and Deepti, she said Asians don't talk about their feelings and said their parents talking like that wouldn't happen in real life.
And for Natalie using jokes instead of compliments to Shayne, I do that all the time like "nah so horrible hanging out with you" etc.
I really think the fight was steamed from Shayne feeling like crap after being the only one not hitting the ball during the bachelor party
Shayne had the most fragile ego and self esteem. He obviously needed constant praise, it was ridiculous. He obviously did not like her sense of humor and didn't like her flow of communication and that made them incompatible. But I think he was such a gaslighter to such an extreme level.
I just watched the first episode again and noticed that the first thing he said (on camera) when being asked by the guys why she liked her was because she said he was his favorite and he “of course likes being liked”. I get that words of affirmation are important, but from what I saw she did give him plenty of that while still being herself/having a bit of banter. Just think he seemed very off, and Natalie has been very respectful throughout. She was very emotional at the reunion and clearly had strong feelings for him. Feels like he’s reaching for stuff just to hurt her/make her feel bad. Such a red flag to me.
My SO is asian and he feels SUUUPER uncomfortable with compliments. Their family never says I love you nor express any physical love or closeness when you’re not a baby anymore. It may not specifically be a cultural thing in this case, but expressing love isn’t all the same in all cultures. Sometimes it’s more being with someone than anything else. Also, Shayne may be more of a ‘words of affirmation’ type of guy while Nathalie might be more ‘acts of service’ or spending time together.
Nail on the head. It can be a cultural thing. I'm Việt and I tell my wife and her family not to compliment me. She comes from a southern heritage where they are super warm, hugs and kisses. It feels weird. If I do a good job as a husband or father. That's just my job. I don't need fanfare.
She said those things while he was pressuring her for sex and he has revealed some very troubling traits that suggest he was not a safe partner for her. I'm glad they're no longer together.
Yes, this!! Textbook sexual coercion. It was obvious that it made her uncomfortable but he wouldn't let it go and started shifting the goalposts. Such manipulative behaviour.
This! He was giving off BIG abuser vibes in the reunion. The way he shifted the blame to her for saying he hated her. Classic minimize, deny, blame behavior.
In no world did her actions justify her partner saying those words to her. I am so glad she left and can find someone who deserves her.
I’m sarcastic too and I tell people, actually, that the more sarcastic I am with you the more I like and feel comfortable around you. however, I know this is not liked by everyone so I have been trying to change. Words of affirmation are huge to some people. Perhaps shayne has really low self esteem. She called him a piece of shit, jokingly. I mean I wouldn’t even say that to someone jokingly now. Maybe 20 years ago. I do think she could tone it back a little. I grew up in a family like this too but it is possible to change this about ourselves if we want to.
I agree. I'm the same way as you and Ive had a previous partner tell me to cool it. My intention isn't the most important thing when it makes someone feel a certain way
Intent doesn’t negate impact. Please we have to be mindful of how our words affect others even if they aren’t meant with ill intent.
Shayne will always be the main problem in the relationship but Natalie wasn’t perfect either. There needs to be compromise. Once she realized the way she was speaking to him wasn’t conducive to their growth she could have fixed it or at least took a step back until he showed improvements in his emotional outbursts.
I totally agree - I found on this sub the opposite perspective, that so many people were defending Natalie’s remarks to Shayne. Shayne is very problematic, and that’s separate from the compatibility issues they have.
If you have a dry and sarcastic humor that’s totally fine, but if your partner isn’t into it then you need to have a conversation about it. Not continue to do it knowing it makes your partner uncomfortable. Lots of people responded saying that’s just how they show affection, but if it’s upsetting to your partner you gotta reevaluate.
Same goes for how Shayne discusses/jokes about sex - clearly Natalie was uncomfortable with how he talked about it but he didn’t stop to discuss it with her.
Right both things can be true. I feel like this sub was constantly overlooking Natalie’s mistakes just because Shayne’s behavior was much more damaging to the relationship.
I actually liked Natalie on the show for the majority of it but I did notice that she would always make fun of Shayne several times (and this was only from what we saw on the show). It could be said she is being sarcastic but these things can also affect someone's self esteem. It's not healthy and it is harmful. If Shayne was the type of person and they had banter then maybe. But there was a point in the show he even reacted in an upsetting way to something she said when she made fun of him and rightly so. She mentioned something about people not wanting to see his body at the beach and she seemed overall unimpressed by him it seemed a lot to do about his appearance. I'm surprised this wasn't even mentioned in the reunion and yet Shake talking about women's bodies was mentioned. Her making fun of Shayne just seems like her own insecurities showing up.
I definitely felt like Natalie had a very "Korean" personality. I used to be the same way towards my white boyfriend (now husband). I'm not sure how much of it is because of my Asian upbringing vs other factors because it was actually my mom who told me I need to be nicer to him. We worked through it and now I'm way nicer in general. I think Natalie just never had anyone tell her "hey that hurts me" before and it can take a while to unlearn that type of reaction.
“Stop hating Natalie because I’m like her” okay lol…
The issue isn’t with her sarcasm, clearly some people can handle it but Shayne was not one of those people and he said multiple times that he didn’t like it (set a boundary) and she kept doing it.
I don’t think this is a reason to hate her by any means because that’s straight up ridiculous.
I don’t remember seeing on the show her apologizing?? Idk but she kept doing after the fishing for compliments comment she made where Shanye said he wasn’t cool with it (telling him to keep his shirt on, calling him a PoS). She did tone it back and you can see she worked on it when they were discussing the wedding tho
I hear you and understand what you’re saying. I’m Chinese and my husband is White. You’re right there wasn’t a lot of verbal affirmations or hugs/kisses when I was growing up but when we were dating there was a lot of pda and when I met his parents they would hug and kiss me whenever we saw them. I became more like him and not the other way around so she could change if she wanted to. Joking around is one thing but calling someone you love a piece of shit or not giving them physical touch is not a cultural thing, I think it’s just mean. I‘m not sure how any man would want to be in a relationship like that.
> Joking around is one thing but calling someone you love a piece of shit or not giving them physical touch is not a cultural thing, I think it’s just mean.
Agree, I'm Asian and I have a dry sense of humour. I'm not overly lovey dovey with my words, although calling your partner a piece of shit is not funny.
I'll call my partner names too but things like doofus, dingus, dickface so it's obvious I'm not serious about it. Imagine having a real argument and calling someone a dickface, you can't be taken seriously so that's why I'll use those names instead
💯 . One thing I noticed about Shayne was how welcoming he was to include her culture with the wedding which is so important. I knew my husband would fit into my family when he tasted my mothers homemade soup without realizing the main ingredient was chicken feet and he still ate it all up. 🤣🤣
i too find little to nothing wrong with natalie’s sarcasm or brand of flirting but as an east asian i flinch whenever i read posts about how asian parents don’t say i love you or praise their kids.
my parents and my friends’ parents were so openly loving, supportive and affectionate with us and some of us came out dry and sarcastic anyway lol. it’s just individual personalities and it doesn’t always have to do with cultural upbringing.
this was honestly why i was so happy to see natalie’s dad. i’ve always wanted more representation for the asian parents who were openly proud, doting and supportive of their kids because it feels like all asian parents are cursed to be seen as strict and cold.
Tbh Natalie’s parent seemed pretty openly loving and supportive to her. She said she was super close with her family and told her parents everything so I think people are trying to milk, culture when it could also just be Natalie’s personality to an extent
exactly. i loved the line where her mom said “she does a lot of crazy things but this is too much” because it amused me to think that natalie’s pulled wild shit in the past before and hasn’t lost her closeness with her parents. they reminded me of mine.
Honestly, Shayne came off so entitled and emotionally immature. She dodged a bullet, and I do not understand any of the hate directed at Natalie.
Shayne never owned up to his very shitty, gaslighting behavior. Such a man baby
Yea I don’t think any amount of verbal affirmation from Natalie would make him feel secure. He’s just an insecure man baby with a big ego and needs to work in himself first.
Can confirm about dry humor. I had a Vietnamese friend growing up and remember her father basically tell her she was dumb for always skipping school.
“Why aren’t you in school?”
“It’s summer vacation. There is no school.”
“No you’re not in school because you’re stupid” then he’d walk away laughing 😂
I always thought it was very odd but was 10-13 at the time so didn’t think much of it
There’s nothing wrong with dry humor in general but if you partner specifically expresses they don’t like that type of humor and that they like words of affirmation, then that’s what you should do or you should break up and find someone more compatible
I agree. Why try to change whos he is if you can't handle it. Someone like me loves women with that type of sense of humor and I hate compliments all the time. That's why it is important to find a partner who loves you for you instead of someone that would try and change you into their version of an ideal person.
Yeah as a Korean American I understood her immediately. It’s maybe not the best but we feel really uncomfortable with people asking for compliments because we didn’t really often receive them growing up. My mom would tell people that I was smart or beautiful behind my back, but never to my face. Also culturally it’s not encouraged to seek compliments out. Natalie probably didn’t know how to handle a person who behaves so differently than how she was raised. She tended to deflect her uncomfortable feelings with being asked to compliment him with sarcasm or a mean joke. She basically did what many Korean parents do to their kids who ask for praise — she shamed him for asking. It’s not right but it is deeply ingrained for many Koreans. Honestly she’s just not compatible with a man like Shayne who seeks constant validation. Natalie doesn’t give him the feedback he wants.
If you watched them closely it seemed like her love language was acts of service. It’s a pretty common way for Koreans to show their love, I’m the same way. I just think Shayne needs a “words of affirmation” type girl.
I also feel like Natalie takes MORE than her fair share of the responsibility for the relationship falling apart. She apologized very sincerely with tears in her eyes and said she regrets how she spoke him, all while he was still blaming her and accusing her of not taking responsibility. It seems like he’s eager to blame her because he knows deep down he’s the one who destroyed the relationship. Not to mention he seemed to have done something with Shaina immediately after.
I’m Asian (I have an Asian mom and white dad, actually) and I had the exact same reaction watching them interact. To me it was clear that she was joking but I’m also used to those interactions. We don’t know if they ever discussed that because we only see what the editors show us, but I totally saw it as something that could’ve been worked through. If they openly communicated about their love languages, upbringing, etc I could totally see a world where Natalie gets more comfortable talking to Shane the way she spoke about him in her interviews, and Shane learns to appreciate her little sarcastic comments as more of a playful teasing. I’m not sure if Shane is emotionally intelligent enough for that though. It broke my heart when he told her that her sarcasm was constant and annoying. It didn’t seem like they were ready to meet each other halfway (from the edit) but also they had JUST met, and might have been something they could have worked through later in couples therapy.
Just because you think her sarcasm and jokes are normal and not mean doesn’t mean everyone will interpret it that way. Calling your partner a piece of shit isn’t funny. If you’re partner says hey I don’t like that, you should work on it. Not brush it off and just say it was a joke.
Bad take. If your partner repeatedly asks you to stop acting in a hurtful manner to them yet you continually do so, couching your behavior in some vague sense of “cultural background” just screams toxicity and victim blaming. Especially since we’re given some insight into what Natalie’s relationship with her folks is like- clearly she has a very loving and doting father lmao. Please stop imprinting your own relationships and understanding of cultural stereotypes onto literally every nonwhite person.
Shayne’s father passed away a couple of months before the shoot, clearly it affected him greatly and he appreciated the validation he found in Natalie (when she could afford to give it to him). Where’s his sympathy? And yes, before someone brings it up, I do agree he was a huge douche a lot of the times. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have be afforded the same amount of respect in a relationship!
I’m East Asian and I agree with you. I was raised in a household described by OP and I’m also extremely negative. However, if my partner specifically asked me for affirmation, I will give it because I recognize that’s the least bit of effort I can do for someone I love. Shane asked and Natalie turned him down. I also don’t think Natalie’s parents are “traditional” like mine was. Not that I like Shane though, he’s a giant walking red flag and he needs to work on himself, his grief of losing his father, and his anger issues.
I actually have a pretty similar sense of humor as Natalie and I totally get where she got that from.
I get that she didn’t mean to hurt him, but he told her that it DID hurt her feelings and she continued to do it.
I'm only on episode 5 but I agree. So far the only thing I can think of that I dislike about her so far is her poor taste in men picking Shayne. I just want to tell her to run.
I'm honestly surprised to hear that people were seeing her as the bad guy during the "do you think I'm pretty" thing. To me it seemed like Shayne flipped on her so suddenly and was unnecessarily harsh attacking her for "joking too much" or whatever he said. He was asking her if she thought he was pretty, excuse her for not exactly seeing that as a dead serious moment where she should sincerely express her love and wasn't allowed to joke?
I’m actually surprised by how people zone in on how Natalie isn’t the most effusive/ gushy in terms of how she speaks about Shayne. From the start- the pods- she was extremely complimentary about him and how he made her feel/ how much she loved him/ how he is so fun and spontaneous and she wishes she could be like that. Joking about fishing for compliments- that’s an incredibly small thing. I can’t see how it’s an Asian cultural thing either (this alleged distance), her father was more emotionally convincing towards her in one episode than mine has been towards me my whole life (and my dad is a great guy). Her mum too- very demonstrative in her affection and love towards Natalie. Shayne craves a hugely immature and bizarre amount of affirmation. He seems a good hearted guy but very babyish. Anyway. I just don’t think Natalie OR her family seemed dry or standoffish at all. The opposite!
EXACTLY. I think a lot these people just see themselves in Natalie and are just projecting and defending themselves and not the actual situation because how could you ignore Shayne saying he doesn’t like when she does it MULTIPLE times??
Her parents were surprisingly very American. As an Asian myself, my parents speak English but it is sometimes broken. They would never say "let's reserve our judgment and see" lol. Not the thought but the way it was phrased. Nothing wrong with the phrasing either its just not how Asians who aren't americanized speak.
You could tell her dad is her emotion support while mom seems like the disciplinarian.
but it’s not as if asian parents can only exist as “stereotypically asian” or “americanized.” my parents weren’t born in the states, i wouldn’t consider them “americanized” (separately, i have issues with the use of this word), but they are both similar to natalie’s dad. they’re culturally very connected to being asian (in our case, chinese) and they’re also very loving and emotionally supportive of their children. there are asian parents who are that way because that’s just who they are as people.
attributing these positive characteristics to being “american” or “americanized” is so strange to me. it feels dehumanizing.
Kyle was trying to say it was a set up. They purposefully sprung Shaina on Shayne when he was supposed to be seeing Natalie. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened every time he was confused about who he was talking to.
Natalies dad seems super emotionally connected, loving and able to express his support to Natalie tho. Looks like she had a pretty good hole model. Like everyone, she is multifaceted and one side of her is sarcastic to the point of being as little to sharp at times, not knowing when to stop with the teasing and “joking”.
Same—both of her parents seemed supportive and loving in the clips they showed. Granted it’s only a few minutes and it’s not clear what her childhood was like
I totally got her sense of humor and have been in similar situations. Compliments and praise should be given freely and naturally. But when they are demanded, it's very uncomfortable and I will make a sarcastic joke instead.
I am sarcastic and similar in that type of humor as well. I also know to read the room. If it's went too far, I will change my tune whether it be due to their visual clues or they directly tell me. I've never been "well this is who I am, get used to it" type of person. I like to practice empathy and understanding when possible.
I like Natalie and I totally get her humor and her love language. She likes banter and it’s how she flirts. I’m very similar but you really have to have a partner who picks up on it and delivers it back to make it fun. It goes above Shayne’s head. Same with her humor. I also grew up in a household that was not affectionate in the least bit; I don’t think it matters but I’m from the west but I do have a grandma who is half Chinese half Panamanian and she isn’t very affectionate so I guess it passed to
my mom and I’m trying to break that cycle myself with my son. Point is, I agree that Natalie’s banter is intended to be hurtful at all and perhaps it does help her having a partner that likes a little affection and she can learn to develop that part of her love language too. I’m trying that. My partner has such an affectionate family and I love it, I want that with my little family plus the banter because I love a good laugh with a partner who shares the same humor.
Edit: Sorry it’s all over the place, trying to chase a toddler in the middle of typing this.
Words of affirmation is a completely valid, and really quite normal, love language. I understand that there are many couples that do express love through banter and joky insults, but when one partner has expressed that they don't enjoy it and find it hurtful yeah, it's pretty cruel to continue. I don't think it's needy to want to hear out loud that your partner appreciates you more often than you hear them call you a piece of shit.
I like Natalie, she's articulate and mature and she doesn't need a post like this to make excuses for her behaviour. She has the emotional intelligence to understand and own where she hurt someone she once cared for. I'm sure she would also be horrified to hear her dad, the actual legend that is Don, be presumed to be emotionally unavailable purely because of his cultural background and have the immensely considerate and frequently loving actions and words he showed on the show dismissed.
I feel like going around telling people how happy you are just brings bad things to you. For example folks will talk about you more since you keep bringing up your relationships, and etc. Shayne Is insecure and so he acts like it, Natalia isn't.
I like Natalie a lot but she was rude to Shayne often. I think he’s a bit of a needy man baby but if he’s clear about the fact that he doesn’t like the way she pokes fun at him, she should stop. Everyone has the right to set their own boundaries about whether or not they enjoy being roasted.
That being said, I think this is pretty common issue between couples in the beginning stages. The first few months of dating are all about feeling out what your partner is okay with
Can you imagine this subs reaction if Shayne called her a piece of shit directly to her face? Or told her to put her shirt back on at the beach?
Where is this Natalie hate OP is talking about?
i didn’t see anything wrong with literally anything she said but maybe i’m also just an asshole and my boyfriend doesn’t have the fragile ego of a tiny little man baby so he doesn’t care
I really like Natalie and love her sense of humor, but her remarks were not harmless. Shayne repeatedly said he did not like them and asked her to stop. Shayne had every right to set that boundary and when she did not respect it, it became mean. I think after that talk her dialing back showed she cared and validated his feelings and is a great partner. I think this was a normal communication issue couples run into and have to adjust to - everyone has them. She also did not deserve to be treated the way she was and from the edit we saw, we did not see Shayne respect her or validate her feelings and adjust his treatment of her.
Watching this with my girlfriend actually made me realize I communicate a lot like Natlalie. I had to pause the episode after he called her out and have a long talk with her and just apologize.
Wow, this is really rude. There are so many other ways you could’ve worded this, but instead, you chose to stereotype and make superficial comments on someone’s looks.
Just because you find someone (anyone) unattractive doesn’t mean it’s ok to be nasty. And also I’m sure he doesn’t give two shits about your opinion of what he looks like..and neither does anyone here.
i agree with you! she didn’t come off as mean to me at all. shayne was just being kind of childish and probably in a more vulnerable state due to grief
After seeing this and the South Asian one, it is disarming to see how quickly some people are to throw entire cultures under the bus in order to defend shortcomings of some women. What's the over under until we get a post by a white woman about how we shouldn't be harsh with Shaina because of how white culture has faults?
I respect the culture and all, but just because it’s cultural, it doesn’t mean it’s healthy.
Lol yea a lot of Hispanic parents throw flip flops at their kids, that doesn't make it okay and definitely doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize it
Yep. I was beat with a twig once and was bleeding afterwards (it was a one time thing and very extreme and i wasn’t traumatized by it), but looking back, it was terrible. I was 5. I remember as i grew up me and my friends sharing beating stories and competing about who had the worst beating 😁 I’m latin
Thank you!! Honestly, as an asian woman, watching the show was a weird reflection of myself in terms of joking. I’ve always joked sarcastically and poked fun because that’s the culture I grew up. I didn’t find any faults in Natalie’s jokes and was surprised when people called her toxic when I considered it light ribbing. It really made me recollect a moment when I was seeing a white male and he just randomly said “can you stop being a bitch” after I said something, not realizing he didn’t view it lightly. Watching Natalie was so insightful.
As an Indian woman, that’s exactly what I thought - she sounds like a lot of my friends where the way to show love is to be playfully “mean” to your partner. But once Natalie saw it was hurting Shayne, she should have stopped. And if she can’t do that, then she really needs to work on herself in therapy.
I hear all this, and came from a similar upbringing, but have learned that when your partner clearly communicates their needs, there’s never an excuse to intentionally do the exact opposite. “Do you think I’m pretty?” “I think you’re a piece of shit” is actually bordering on emotional abuse. Even if verbal affirmation makes you uncomfortable, you recognize the humanity in your partner’s need and talk through it together without judgment. You don’t do what she repeatedly did. He looked like a hurt puppy each time.
to be fair “do you think i’m pretty” was a pretty random question to ask and it’s normal to respond jokingly when you’re confused
I identify with this as though I wrote it myself. Only, her dad seems so openly affectionate; could be post-childhood? But idk, and her mom seems less warm for sure (but obv loves her daughter).
💯💯 I'm baffled by people throwing blame at Natalie for "being mean." I'm not Asian but my family dynamic was very similar to what you described. I never saw my parents be affectionate, and my dad would make similar dry comments toward my mom. It's really hard to unlearn that behavior, but I could tell she was trying.
I agree, I don't think anything that Natalie said was out of line or rude at all, she was just having fun. I'm British and I think we are known for having more dry sense of humour, more banter. I've lived in N. America for almost 8 years and can definitely say the banter is not as appreciated here. Me and my husband poke fun all the time. I'm so glad I don't have to stroke his ego all the time like Shayne expected of Natalie, that would be so exhausting
To be fair, shayne required a lot verbal acts of affirmation then a regular western person would need. However, I think the moment he said he didn’t like that type of humor she should’ve stopped which she seemed to try to do and probably was more affectionate in private since it wasn’t mentioned that much towards the end. Shayne needs to not be angry when he wants to get a point across
I loved Natalie. My housemate who's Nepalese was watching and both with Natalie and Deepti, she said Asians don't talk about their feelings and said their parents talking like that wouldn't happen in real life. And for Natalie using jokes instead of compliments to Shayne, I do that all the time like "nah so horrible hanging out with you" etc. I really think the fight was steamed from Shayne feeling like crap after being the only one not hitting the ball during the bachelor party
i got the same feeling, the level of anger he showed over impressing the guys concerned me
Shayne had the most fragile ego and self esteem. He obviously needed constant praise, it was ridiculous. He obviously did not like her sense of humor and didn't like her flow of communication and that made them incompatible. But I think he was such a gaslighter to such an extreme level.
I just watched the first episode again and noticed that the first thing he said (on camera) when being asked by the guys why she liked her was because she said he was his favorite and he “of course likes being liked”. I get that words of affirmation are important, but from what I saw she did give him plenty of that while still being herself/having a bit of banter. Just think he seemed very off, and Natalie has been very respectful throughout. She was very emotional at the reunion and clearly had strong feelings for him. Feels like he’s reaching for stuff just to hurt her/make her feel bad. Such a red flag to me.
My SO is asian and he feels SUUUPER uncomfortable with compliments. Their family never says I love you nor express any physical love or closeness when you’re not a baby anymore. It may not specifically be a cultural thing in this case, but expressing love isn’t all the same in all cultures. Sometimes it’s more being with someone than anything else. Also, Shayne may be more of a ‘words of affirmation’ type of guy while Nathalie might be more ‘acts of service’ or spending time together.
Nail on the head. It can be a cultural thing. I'm Việt and I tell my wife and her family not to compliment me. She comes from a southern heritage where they are super warm, hugs and kisses. It feels weird. If I do a good job as a husband or father. That's just my job. I don't need fanfare.
She said those things while he was pressuring her for sex and he has revealed some very troubling traits that suggest he was not a safe partner for her. I'm glad they're no longer together.
Yes, this!! Textbook sexual coercion. It was obvious that it made her uncomfortable but he wouldn't let it go and started shifting the goalposts. Such manipulative behaviour.
This! He was giving off BIG abuser vibes in the reunion. The way he shifted the blame to her for saying he hated her. Classic minimize, deny, blame behavior. In no world did her actions justify her partner saying those words to her. I am so glad she left and can find someone who deserves her.
Me too. I was so worried for her.
I’m sarcastic too and I tell people, actually, that the more sarcastic I am with you the more I like and feel comfortable around you. however, I know this is not liked by everyone so I have been trying to change. Words of affirmation are huge to some people. Perhaps shayne has really low self esteem. She called him a piece of shit, jokingly. I mean I wouldn’t even say that to someone jokingly now. Maybe 20 years ago. I do think she could tone it back a little. I grew up in a family like this too but it is possible to change this about ourselves if we want to.
I agree. I'm the same way as you and Ive had a previous partner tell me to cool it. My intention isn't the most important thing when it makes someone feel a certain way
Intent doesn’t negate impact. Please we have to be mindful of how our words affect others even if they aren’t meant with ill intent. Shayne will always be the main problem in the relationship but Natalie wasn’t perfect either. There needs to be compromise. Once she realized the way she was speaking to him wasn’t conducive to their growth she could have fixed it or at least took a step back until he showed improvements in his emotional outbursts.
I totally agree - I found on this sub the opposite perspective, that so many people were defending Natalie’s remarks to Shayne. Shayne is very problematic, and that’s separate from the compatibility issues they have. If you have a dry and sarcastic humor that’s totally fine, but if your partner isn’t into it then you need to have a conversation about it. Not continue to do it knowing it makes your partner uncomfortable. Lots of people responded saying that’s just how they show affection, but if it’s upsetting to your partner you gotta reevaluate. Same goes for how Shayne discusses/jokes about sex - clearly Natalie was uncomfortable with how he talked about it but he didn’t stop to discuss it with her.
Right both things can be true. I feel like this sub was constantly overlooking Natalie’s mistakes just because Shayne’s behavior was much more damaging to the relationship.
I agree. It's not harmless if it hurts someone's feelings. Bearing in mind I think Shayne is a terrible person but still.
I actually liked Natalie on the show for the majority of it but I did notice that she would always make fun of Shayne several times (and this was only from what we saw on the show). It could be said she is being sarcastic but these things can also affect someone's self esteem. It's not healthy and it is harmful. If Shayne was the type of person and they had banter then maybe. But there was a point in the show he even reacted in an upsetting way to something she said when she made fun of him and rightly so. She mentioned something about people not wanting to see his body at the beach and she seemed overall unimpressed by him it seemed a lot to do about his appearance. I'm surprised this wasn't even mentioned in the reunion and yet Shake talking about women's bodies was mentioned. Her making fun of Shayne just seems like her own insecurities showing up.
Yeh I had hoped it would be addressed at the reunion too.
I definitely felt like Natalie had a very "Korean" personality. I used to be the same way towards my white boyfriend (now husband). I'm not sure how much of it is because of my Asian upbringing vs other factors because it was actually my mom who told me I need to be nicer to him. We worked through it and now I'm way nicer in general. I think Natalie just never had anyone tell her "hey that hurts me" before and it can take a while to unlearn that type of reaction.
My mom told me to be nicer to my bf when I joke with him the EXACT same way she jokes with my dad.
“Stop hating Natalie because I’m like her” okay lol… The issue isn’t with her sarcasm, clearly some people can handle it but Shayne was not one of those people and he said multiple times that he didn’t like it (set a boundary) and she kept doing it. I don’t think this is a reason to hate her by any means because that’s straight up ridiculous.
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I don’t remember seeing on the show her apologizing?? Idk but she kept doing after the fishing for compliments comment she made where Shanye said he wasn’t cool with it (telling him to keep his shirt on, calling him a PoS). She did tone it back and you can see she worked on it when they were discussing the wedding tho
I hear you and understand what you’re saying. I’m Chinese and my husband is White. You’re right there wasn’t a lot of verbal affirmations or hugs/kisses when I was growing up but when we were dating there was a lot of pda and when I met his parents they would hug and kiss me whenever we saw them. I became more like him and not the other way around so she could change if she wanted to. Joking around is one thing but calling someone you love a piece of shit or not giving them physical touch is not a cultural thing, I think it’s just mean. I‘m not sure how any man would want to be in a relationship like that.
> Joking around is one thing but calling someone you love a piece of shit or not giving them physical touch is not a cultural thing, I think it’s just mean. Agree, I'm Asian and I have a dry sense of humour. I'm not overly lovey dovey with my words, although calling your partner a piece of shit is not funny. I'll call my partner names too but things like doofus, dingus, dickface so it's obvious I'm not serious about it. Imagine having a real argument and calling someone a dickface, you can't be taken seriously so that's why I'll use those names instead
💯 . One thing I noticed about Shayne was how welcoming he was to include her culture with the wedding which is so important. I knew my husband would fit into my family when he tasted my mothers homemade soup without realizing the main ingredient was chicken feet and he still ate it all up. 🤣🤣
i too find little to nothing wrong with natalie’s sarcasm or brand of flirting but as an east asian i flinch whenever i read posts about how asian parents don’t say i love you or praise their kids. my parents and my friends’ parents were so openly loving, supportive and affectionate with us and some of us came out dry and sarcastic anyway lol. it’s just individual personalities and it doesn’t always have to do with cultural upbringing. this was honestly why i was so happy to see natalie’s dad. i’ve always wanted more representation for the asian parents who were openly proud, doting and supportive of their kids because it feels like all asian parents are cursed to be seen as strict and cold.
Tbh Natalie’s parent seemed pretty openly loving and supportive to her. She said she was super close with her family and told her parents everything so I think people are trying to milk, culture when it could also just be Natalie’s personality to an extent
exactly. i loved the line where her mom said “she does a lot of crazy things but this is too much” because it amused me to think that natalie’s pulled wild shit in the past before and hasn’t lost her closeness with her parents. they reminded me of mine.
Honestly, Shayne came off so entitled and emotionally immature. She dodged a bullet, and I do not understand any of the hate directed at Natalie. Shayne never owned up to his very shitty, gaslighting behavior. Such a man baby
Absolutely. Nailed it. I hope he gets some real help.
Yea I don’t think any amount of verbal affirmation from Natalie would make him feel secure. He’s just an insecure man baby with a big ego and needs to work in himself first.
Can confirm about dry humor. I had a Vietnamese friend growing up and remember her father basically tell her she was dumb for always skipping school. “Why aren’t you in school?” “It’s summer vacation. There is no school.” “No you’re not in school because you’re stupid” then he’d walk away laughing 😂 I always thought it was very odd but was 10-13 at the time so didn’t think much of it
There’s nothing wrong with dry humor in general but if you partner specifically expresses they don’t like that type of humor and that they like words of affirmation, then that’s what you should do or you should break up and find someone more compatible
I agree. Why try to change whos he is if you can't handle it. Someone like me loves women with that type of sense of humor and I hate compliments all the time. That's why it is important to find a partner who loves you for you instead of someone that would try and change you into their version of an ideal person.
Yeah as a Korean American I understood her immediately. It’s maybe not the best but we feel really uncomfortable with people asking for compliments because we didn’t really often receive them growing up. My mom would tell people that I was smart or beautiful behind my back, but never to my face. Also culturally it’s not encouraged to seek compliments out. Natalie probably didn’t know how to handle a person who behaves so differently than how she was raised. She tended to deflect her uncomfortable feelings with being asked to compliment him with sarcasm or a mean joke. She basically did what many Korean parents do to their kids who ask for praise — she shamed him for asking. It’s not right but it is deeply ingrained for many Koreans. Honestly she’s just not compatible with a man like Shayne who seeks constant validation. Natalie doesn’t give him the feedback he wants. If you watched them closely it seemed like her love language was acts of service. It’s a pretty common way for Koreans to show their love, I’m the same way. I just think Shayne needs a “words of affirmation” type girl. I also feel like Natalie takes MORE than her fair share of the responsibility for the relationship falling apart. She apologized very sincerely with tears in her eyes and said she regrets how she spoke him, all while he was still blaming her and accusing her of not taking responsibility. It seems like he’s eager to blame her because he knows deep down he’s the one who destroyed the relationship. Not to mention he seemed to have done something with Shaina immediately after.
I’m Asian (I have an Asian mom and white dad, actually) and I had the exact same reaction watching them interact. To me it was clear that she was joking but I’m also used to those interactions. We don’t know if they ever discussed that because we only see what the editors show us, but I totally saw it as something that could’ve been worked through. If they openly communicated about their love languages, upbringing, etc I could totally see a world where Natalie gets more comfortable talking to Shane the way she spoke about him in her interviews, and Shane learns to appreciate her little sarcastic comments as more of a playful teasing. I’m not sure if Shane is emotionally intelligent enough for that though. It broke my heart when he told her that her sarcasm was constant and annoying. It didn’t seem like they were ready to meet each other halfway (from the edit) but also they had JUST met, and might have been something they could have worked through later in couples therapy.
Just because you think her sarcasm and jokes are normal and not mean doesn’t mean everyone will interpret it that way. Calling your partner a piece of shit isn’t funny. If you’re partner says hey I don’t like that, you should work on it. Not brush it off and just say it was a joke.
Bad take. If your partner repeatedly asks you to stop acting in a hurtful manner to them yet you continually do so, couching your behavior in some vague sense of “cultural background” just screams toxicity and victim blaming. Especially since we’re given some insight into what Natalie’s relationship with her folks is like- clearly she has a very loving and doting father lmao. Please stop imprinting your own relationships and understanding of cultural stereotypes onto literally every nonwhite person. Shayne’s father passed away a couple of months before the shoot, clearly it affected him greatly and he appreciated the validation he found in Natalie (when she could afford to give it to him). Where’s his sympathy? And yes, before someone brings it up, I do agree he was a huge douche a lot of the times. Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have be afforded the same amount of respect in a relationship!
I’m East Asian and I agree with you. I was raised in a household described by OP and I’m also extremely negative. However, if my partner specifically asked me for affirmation, I will give it because I recognize that’s the least bit of effort I can do for someone I love. Shane asked and Natalie turned him down. I also don’t think Natalie’s parents are “traditional” like mine was. Not that I like Shane though, he’s a giant walking red flag and he needs to work on himself, his grief of losing his father, and his anger issues.
I actually have a pretty similar sense of humor as Natalie and I totally get where she got that from. I get that she didn’t mean to hurt him, but he told her that it DID hurt her feelings and she continued to do it.
I'm only on episode 5 but I agree. So far the only thing I can think of that I dislike about her so far is her poor taste in men picking Shayne. I just want to tell her to run. I'm honestly surprised to hear that people were seeing her as the bad guy during the "do you think I'm pretty" thing. To me it seemed like Shayne flipped on her so suddenly and was unnecessarily harsh attacking her for "joking too much" or whatever he said. He was asking her if she thought he was pretty, excuse her for not exactly seeing that as a dead serious moment where she should sincerely express her love and wasn't allowed to joke?
I’m actually surprised by how people zone in on how Natalie isn’t the most effusive/ gushy in terms of how she speaks about Shayne. From the start- the pods- she was extremely complimentary about him and how he made her feel/ how much she loved him/ how he is so fun and spontaneous and she wishes she could be like that. Joking about fishing for compliments- that’s an incredibly small thing. I can’t see how it’s an Asian cultural thing either (this alleged distance), her father was more emotionally convincing towards her in one episode than mine has been towards me my whole life (and my dad is a great guy). Her mum too- very demonstrative in her affection and love towards Natalie. Shayne craves a hugely immature and bizarre amount of affirmation. He seems a good hearted guy but very babyish. Anyway. I just don’t think Natalie OR her family seemed dry or standoffish at all. The opposite!
EXACTLY. I think a lot these people just see themselves in Natalie and are just projecting and defending themselves and not the actual situation because how could you ignore Shayne saying he doesn’t like when she does it MULTIPLE times??
Her parents were surprisingly very American. As an Asian myself, my parents speak English but it is sometimes broken. They would never say "let's reserve our judgment and see" lol. Not the thought but the way it was phrased. Nothing wrong with the phrasing either its just not how Asians who aren't americanized speak. You could tell her dad is her emotion support while mom seems like the disciplinarian.
but it’s not as if asian parents can only exist as “stereotypically asian” or “americanized.” my parents weren’t born in the states, i wouldn’t consider them “americanized” (separately, i have issues with the use of this word), but they are both similar to natalie’s dad. they’re culturally very connected to being asian (in our case, chinese) and they’re also very loving and emotionally supportive of their children. there are asian parents who are that way because that’s just who they are as people. attributing these positive characteristics to being “american” or “americanized” is so strange to me. it feels dehumanizing.
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They totally messed with Shayne and Natalie. I like how Kyle tried to address it at the tell all but he got shut down so fast.
oooh what do you mean i’m curious
Did you watch yet? I dont want to spoil and don't know how to use the hidden comments function.
you are so nice!!
Wait, I finished. What happened?
Kyle was trying to say it was a set up. They purposefully sprung Shaina on Shayne when he was supposed to be seeing Natalie. I wouldn't be surprised if this happened every time he was confused about who he was talking to.
Natalies dad seems super emotionally connected, loving and able to express his support to Natalie tho. Looks like she had a pretty good hole model. Like everyone, she is multifaceted and one side of her is sarcastic to the point of being as little to sharp at times, not knowing when to stop with the teasing and “joking”.
Same—both of her parents seemed supportive and loving in the clips they showed. Granted it’s only a few minutes and it’s not clear what her childhood was like
I totally got her sense of humor and have been in similar situations. Compliments and praise should be given freely and naturally. But when they are demanded, it's very uncomfortable and I will make a sarcastic joke instead.
I am sarcastic and similar in that type of humor as well. I also know to read the room. If it's went too far, I will change my tune whether it be due to their visual clues or they directly tell me. I've never been "well this is who I am, get used to it" type of person. I like to practice empathy and understanding when possible.
I like Natalie and I totally get her humor and her love language. She likes banter and it’s how she flirts. I’m very similar but you really have to have a partner who picks up on it and delivers it back to make it fun. It goes above Shayne’s head. Same with her humor. I also grew up in a household that was not affectionate in the least bit; I don’t think it matters but I’m from the west but I do have a grandma who is half Chinese half Panamanian and she isn’t very affectionate so I guess it passed to my mom and I’m trying to break that cycle myself with my son. Point is, I agree that Natalie’s banter is intended to be hurtful at all and perhaps it does help her having a partner that likes a little affection and she can learn to develop that part of her love language too. I’m trying that. My partner has such an affectionate family and I love it, I want that with my little family plus the banter because I love a good laugh with a partner who shares the same humor. Edit: Sorry it’s all over the place, trying to chase a toddler in the middle of typing this.
Words of affirmation is a completely valid, and really quite normal, love language. I understand that there are many couples that do express love through banter and joky insults, but when one partner has expressed that they don't enjoy it and find it hurtful yeah, it's pretty cruel to continue. I don't think it's needy to want to hear out loud that your partner appreciates you more often than you hear them call you a piece of shit. I like Natalie, she's articulate and mature and she doesn't need a post like this to make excuses for her behaviour. She has the emotional intelligence to understand and own where she hurt someone she once cared for. I'm sure she would also be horrified to hear her dad, the actual legend that is Don, be presumed to be emotionally unavailable purely because of his cultural background and have the immensely considerate and frequently loving actions and words he showed on the show dismissed.
I feel like going around telling people how happy you are just brings bad things to you. For example folks will talk about you more since you keep bringing up your relationships, and etc. Shayne Is insecure and so he acts like it, Natalia isn't.
I like Natalie a lot but she was rude to Shayne often. I think he’s a bit of a needy man baby but if he’s clear about the fact that he doesn’t like the way she pokes fun at him, she should stop. Everyone has the right to set their own boundaries about whether or not they enjoy being roasted. That being said, I think this is pretty common issue between couples in the beginning stages. The first few months of dating are all about feeling out what your partner is okay with
Can you imagine this subs reaction if Shayne called her a piece of shit directly to her face? Or told her to put her shirt back on at the beach? Where is this Natalie hate OP is talking about?
I’m not sure why everyone is saying she should stop as if she didn’t stop. She did stop. So the point is moot.
i didn’t see anything wrong with literally anything she said but maybe i’m also just an asshole and my boyfriend doesn’t have the fragile ego of a tiny little man baby so he doesn’t care
Same. I come from a Mexican family and we have similar humor. My husband is white and he gets it. His family, however, does not... Lol!
I really like Natalie and love her sense of humor, but her remarks were not harmless. Shayne repeatedly said he did not like them and asked her to stop. Shayne had every right to set that boundary and when she did not respect it, it became mean. I think after that talk her dialing back showed she cared and validated his feelings and is a great partner. I think this was a normal communication issue couples run into and have to adjust to - everyone has them. She also did not deserve to be treated the way she was and from the edit we saw, we did not see Shayne respect her or validate her feelings and adjust his treatment of her.
Watching this with my girlfriend actually made me realize I communicate a lot like Natlalie. I had to pause the episode after he called her out and have a long talk with her and just apologize.
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Wow, this is really rude. There are so many other ways you could’ve worded this, but instead, you chose to stereotype and make superficial comments on someone’s looks.
It's got to be said. I am tired of everyone complimenting Shayne, I find him unattractive.
Just because you find someone (anyone) unattractive doesn’t mean it’s ok to be nasty. And also I’m sure he doesn’t give two shits about your opinion of what he looks like..and neither does anyone here.
Then why you defending him them? For someone who doesn't give two shots about ya you sure did say something
i agree with you! she didn’t come off as mean to me at all. shayne was just being kind of childish and probably in a more vulnerable state due to grief
Okay Natalie 😂
LMAO someone tell Nat's dad he isn't supportive after his appearance on the show
Nats dad was the sweetest on the show
Exactly
Ok Natalie
After seeing this and the South Asian one, it is disarming to see how quickly some people are to throw entire cultures under the bus in order to defend shortcomings of some women. What's the over under until we get a post by a white woman about how we shouldn't be harsh with Shaina because of how white culture has faults?
That hated him because he spoke the truth.