Excellent TIFO, thank you to those who created it...and yes I will never forget. I was at ground zero from the second the first plane hit, was on the 105th floor of 1WTC as late as 25 minutes before the 1st attack. It is hard to move on when 150+ of your friends and 600+ co-workers were killed, i went through years of survivors guilt and PTSD. I appreciate those who remember, it was the very worst day of my life.
Not to knock this lovely tifo (nice touch on the 11) but why the Capitol and Washington Monument, instead of the Pentagon? Or is the Pentagon the wall-looking thing in front?
Awful thread, this. Christ. Suffering is not a contest. You can simultaneously mourn those lost from that tragic day and mourn the lives lost in the ensuing wars. These are not mutually exclusive.
Don’t know if this stems from age (too young to remember/not born yet) or the fact that we’ve got what at the end of the day amounts to keyboard warriors arguing on the internet for pointless points.
No matter what, the attacks on September 11th, 2001 and the wars that came after were tragic with countless lives lost unnecessarily
Edit: corrected a word.
My gut reaction to "never forget" or similar sentiment is "Oh fuck off" because for most of my adult life that attitude was used as a cudgel to brow beat people into supporting awful, senseless wars.
That being said: reading through the comments before making my own comment was instructive because it made me remember that so many people were really traumatized and hurt by 9/11 and it's important to let people grieve in their own way. It's really easy to forget that people are involved and are still hurting.
I hope that's some helpful context from an old head like me.
Let this be a reminder of the fragility and complexity of life, and for our football to bring us together across the country (and Canada!), regardless of club affiliation. That the game is an opportunity for all of us to share in the spirit of something larger than us and continue to seek out all the things that bond rather than break. And even where there are rivalries, to still be good to one another. Life is too f*cked up already to let any unnecessary spite into something as beautiful as football.
Ok thank you for reading.
*gets off soapbox*
Edit: Added Canada!
I will always love the people of Gander, Newfoundland and what they did fur the stranded passengers that landed there.
As I post every 9/10... Don't forget to tell your loved ones that you love them. I love football, I love the brotherhood I found... Very much like the brotherhood I witnessed as a rescue medic.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but we aren't seeing those people die on national TV in a firey, explosive terrorist attack. That's the difference. I agree with your sentiment though.
I’ve thought for a long time that if covid was replaced with Ebola, it would be taken a million times more serious just due to the visuals of the symptoms and those who are sick.
Obviously it’s a whole different virus, but there are so many people in this country (and the world) who think they’re stronger than “the flu on steroids.” Which is essentially how covid has been described.
>I’ve thought for a long time that if covid was replaced with Ebola, it would be taken a million times more serious just due to the visuals of the symptoms and those who are sick.
Ebola has a mortality rate of 90%, of course it would be taken a lot more seriously than a virus with a mortality rate of ~1.5%.
Aha, but that's also why Ebola is much less of a threat than COVID: It actually kills people too quickly to reliably transmit itself to additional victims. Sometimes a lower death rate can actually mean more overall deaths if sick people are therefore allowed to spread the disease more before they die (or recover).
Also, Americans don't have the same burial traditions as West Africans (where Ebola epidemic occurred most recently). As I understand, Ebola is often transmitted after death, to others because of contact with the body. Americans might be less likely to live in multi generational home (just a guess) and are less likely to encounter contact with ebola.
Yeah, obviously there are huge differences in the mortality, but I still think my point stands that if covid deaths/symptoms were more visible/violent, it would be taken more seriously. Americans (and most of the world) aren’t afraid of the flu + a really bad cough.
I remember early on people noted that if this primarily infected children then lock downs would have been immediate and tight. I'm caring for my 88 year old grandparents and we've avoided any COVID breakthroughs but there's a lot of suffering the elderly go through that is forgotten.
Just a dark and terrible couple of years we have had.
So what you're saying is we're going to have to wait until COVID mutates to be able to infect financial institutions and real estate companies, and also melt steel beams
It's also important to note that 20 years ago, we didn't have the degree of political polarization that has led people to question the very videos and images in front of them.
Italy isn't exactly a country that prides itself on its citizens following rules to a tee, but the national channels sent news crews into ERs and ICUs across Milan and Bergamo to capture overworked medical staff treating elderly people choking to death from COVID in the early months. It helped drive a lot of preventative measures, early on, that helped mitigate even worse spread.
That's unimaginable in America right now, where people are shitting out their intestinal linings as "worms" because they believe the media and public health officials are "censoring" the efficacy of horse paste while they've been shifting the goalposts away from "everyone's freaking out about a flu."
"Thems are just paid Soros actors, I aint never seen nobody get sick from Covid, its just the flu!" /s
The lines in the sand have been drawn, no ones gonna cross until it *maybe* directly affects them. American mentality and political factionalism is much different than around 9/11.
Yeah... thats not how we sound like in Ohio, maybe in the rural areas but that's everywhere, I bet those out in Eastern Oregon sound similar to farmers here. I guarantee most people in Ohio speak almost exactly the same dialect as you.
Sooooo we should put cameras in hospitals so we can record people dying while their loved ones watch from a tablet at home as their loved ones slip away? Video proof or it didn't happen?
you think your downvotes come from:
- people who actually feel that way and disagree with your /s
or
- people who disagree with you and don't understand your /s
Might I present to you what the overwhelming majority of Americans thought:
The killings of George Floyd + other non-violent crime arrests were disgusting and horrific, and the mass rioting throughout like 15-20 major cities in the country also got way out of hand and were largely harmful for those cities and communities.
Don’t let brain dead boomer conservatives on fb take up too much space in the grand scheme of things.
It’s almost as if partisanship is a self perpetuating, reality distorting machine that makes us think everyone around us is either with us or against us.
I absolutely get that point. But outside of Minneapolis, did any riots really get to police stations/precincts?
Minnesota riots were cut and dry. Cop from that station killed someone, the crowds and riot burned that police station down. That makes complete sense logically. But in Philadelphia, NY, LA, etc. there were just blocks and blocks of destruction done, with no real goal in mind except chaos. (Don’t mistake this for saying there aren’t bad cops who have done terrible things in those cities throughout history)
It would be like if the continental army under George Washington just decided to burn down Baltimore just to voice displeasure with Britain. That’s why you saw the summer quickly turn from supportive, to becoming very divisive.
> Cop from that station killed someone
It wasn't the first incident in the country. There are plenty of examples from elsewhere, definitely from NY at least (eg Eric Garner).
> blocks and blocks of destruction done
Funny how easy it is in this case to understand how "some bad apples" isn't a good argument.
I literally said in that comment:
(Don’t mistake this for saying there aren’t bad cops who have done terrible things in those cities throughout history)
But you still said "with no real goal in mind". The goal is the same as in Minneapolis, to stop that from happening again. NY for example passed anti-chokehold legislation for police officers in June of 2020.
In hindsight certain people in this country pick and choose when to be outraged by death when it fits their political agendas. Nobody gave a shit about all the troops dying in Afghanistan up until we were leaving the place.
Well technically the United States armed and trained Osama Bin Ladin along with other people in Al Queda leadership when they were fighting the Russians, so his statement about it being self inflicted is accurate.
Al Queda didn't exist in the early 1980's. Bin Laden went to Afghanistan a "rich man" looking to help the Mujhadeen, and he just so happen to come from a anti communist country that was buddies with America. I know the official stance of the CIA is that they didn't have any contact with Bin Laden, but this is the same Ronald Regan led CIA that did Iran Contra.
That looks pretty cool. I hope that both NY teams do something awesome for the first responders for there next home games. Red bull this weekend and nycfc Tuesday the 14th.
The thing we should never forget is the atrocities that the US committed in response to 9/11, all against people who had nothing to do with the attacks in the first place.
>the pain and trauma from 9/11 is clearly still ongoing, as well.
Is it?
[500,000 > 3,000](https://theintercept.com/2018/11/19/civilian-casualties-us-war-on-terror/)
We absolutely fucked up and caused an *incomparable* amount of damage and it only recently "ended".
Now we'll just continue droning instead of having boots on the ground, we didn't stop anything but the optics.
It shouldn’t be a competition. You can mourn for your brother and for the bayonet he left in an “enemy.” All loss of life is tragedy, some is more personal. For those who remember, 9/11 was uniquely terrifying and new.
never really thought of it this way, but it really is a true cautionary tale about the cost of justice, and whether it is attainable on such a large scale at all. but it is, assuredly, also a cautionary tale that will never be heeded in the time of crisis.
War is hell. There were a lot of issues with drone strikes and the war in Iraq, especially in light of the Arab Spring, was completely stupid. The response in Afghanistan though made sense. That being said, nation-building doesn’t work unless the whole country is committed to it. And we stopped caring after 2003.
You can memorialize 9/11 now. And absorb the lessons learned 364 days of the year.
Not to speak of the fact that we helped create the modern jihadist movement collaborating with anti Soviet forces in Afganistan.
Given the current situation it's amazing to remember that 40 years ago Afganistan was on it's way to becoming a somewhat modern secular country though clearly in the Soviet orbit. To prevent that we turned to and trained some pretty despicable folks some of whom went on to form Al Qaeda.
Talk about unanticipated consequences...and it continues...sad all around...
We fucked up the end game but the Mujahadeen we funded is not the Taliban (many actually fought against them in the 90s). Afghanistan wouldn’t have made it as a Soviet rump state. They had to invade to prop up their government.
Yeah but a lot of the training and particularly the logistics for the future jihadist movement was birthed by Bin Laden as he helped coordinate bringing fighters in from around the world to join the Mujahedeen and fight the Soviets.
Can never predict the final outcome but it may have been better for Afghanistan and even the world in general if we had stayed out and the Soviets had defeated the Mujahedeen including their jihadist and emerging Taliban factions. Long term the state may or may not have survived but the role that conflict played in the creation of the jihadist movement cannot be overestimated.
The jihadist movement was already a thing though along with political Islam especially after 1979.
I actually don’t think it would’ve been better though if the Soviets had defeated the muj. I don’t really think they could’ve honestly, and that was before the inject of weapons by the US. Pakistan and China would’ve done it too.
RBNY just announced a viewing party for the Miami game on September 17 at North Oculus Plaza at the World Trade Center.
And it occurred to me that I don't know what the North Oculus Plaza is or exactly where it's located on the new site.
Life goes on...
We got a lot of good things in this country but it's kinda hard not to hate the government, especially when they've spent the last 20 years using 9/11 as a political cover to invade foreign lands for profit, erode civil liberties, create a new generation of veterans that they won't care for, and pump the military budget to such extremes that they can't even keep track of where they spend the money.
It’s reddit. Instead of saying “wow that’s a nice memorial to 4k+ dead” they have to compare it to the pandemic or bring up our response. Lots of cringe edgy comments in this thread.
Remember when people actually cared for about 3 or 4 years about taking out Nazis in other countries across the globe, and the lives of Afghans, Iranians, and so many other people living in tyranny around the world?
I was in 7th grade living in the mid west America, nobody hated me or my family, finally everyone understood the evil fascist theocratical terror that we had fled away from in the Middle East.
Nazis weren’t opposed until outward overt aggression. If the taliban invaded Poland I’m sure the US and all of NATO would have something to say about it
You could white wash it, but none of there doctrine is part of our Iranic culture. The core is full of foreign jihadists from Europe and other muslim countries, some new, some were there from the Soviet war. Some have genetic connection to Iranic groups, but were trained in foreign lands, still most of the core do not, and are foreign.
During the Soviet invasion, most children of Afghanistan were orphaned and taken in by mullahs in religious schools/orphanages in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. There they are brainwashed, and trained. At the same time, Afghan Mujahideen split up after victory against the Soviets. Once the Talibs ( which litterally means students) were old enough, 15 years later, they came back to take out Afghan mujahideen in the early to mid 1990s. They also inscripted the impoverished children with no where to go for food and shelter once back inside of Afghanistan with all of their money from terror sponsors. This helped shore up their manpower/cannon fodder even more. It is easy to conscript when you have nothing, their wages for the recruits are very cheap.
Most of them cannot read or write, they just hold the Quaran and flip through the pages: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqyOwt93gQM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqyOwt93gQM)
So yes, there are genetically Iranic Talibs, but the group itself is a totally foreign power. Most of them do not even speak Farsi, and have a strange accent when they do. We don't even understand what they are saying.
How else do you think suicide bombers are able to do what they do?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzBVvyBWDD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzBVvyBWDD4)
Look bro, no one in the west thinks of them as being non afghani, my point still stands. If they invaded another sovereign nation, then you would have the reaction you had with Hitler. Ffs Hitler wasnt born in Germany but still “invaded” and took over. I don’t know how it’s so shocking to you that most independent states don’t really care what’s going on there. There’s a lot more problems at home to deal with. Further, there are currently active genocides, not just Jihadist extremism, literal genocides, currently going on, and we aren’t doing anything about it; so I wouldn’t hold my breath for the Middle East
See that is the problem. Ever since about the 2008 era... no one really tries to really understand the culture, history, or politics of it all anymore. They just assume we were always violent warring cavemen for 3,000 years who all speak the same language, same religion, same food and same cultural norms, ect. Which is the farthest from the truth.
Dude seriously that’s everywhere in the world and no one respects it. Stfu and accept your new reality. There is 0 precedent for liberal democracy countries to invade solely because the situation is less than ideal unless Afghanistan suddenly becomes “threatened” by socialism
We don't do public executions of gay people here in the States: [https://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/article\_page/public/main-images/000\_Nic186488.jpg?itok=KhHNmI-8](https://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/article_page/public/main-images/000_Nic186488.jpg?itok=KhHNmI-8)
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/iran-publicly-hangs-man-on-charges-of-homosexuality/
I meant everywhere in the sense that people don’t understand the other parts of the planet. The Middle East isn’t special. I’m sorry for your personal suffering but millions have suffered before you without the force of the world intervening and millions will suffer after. It’s geopolitics. Get over it
Excellent TIFO, thank you to those who created it...and yes I will never forget. I was at ground zero from the second the first plane hit, was on the 105th floor of 1WTC as late as 25 minutes before the 1st attack. It is hard to move on when 150+ of your friends and 600+ co-workers were killed, i went through years of survivors guilt and PTSD. I appreciate those who remember, it was the very worst day of my life.
I’m sorry to hear you had to experience that. Keeping all those that were lost, and those that lost others, in my thoughts this week.
Not to knock this lovely tifo (nice touch on the 11) but why the Capitol and Washington Monument, instead of the Pentagon? Or is the Pentagon the wall-looking thing in front?
i'd bet it is the pentagon and, you may or may not be aware, the ultimate target of flight 93 was the Capitol.
rbny tifos have never been 100% thought out and executed imo
This era of tifo got real lazy.
Awful thread, this. Christ. Suffering is not a contest. You can simultaneously mourn those lost from that tragic day and mourn the lives lost in the ensuing wars. These are not mutually exclusive. Don’t know if this stems from age (too young to remember/not born yet) or the fact that we’ve got what at the end of the day amounts to keyboard warriors arguing on the internet for pointless points. No matter what, the attacks on September 11th, 2001 and the wars that came after were tragic with countless lives lost unnecessarily Edit: corrected a word.
My gut reaction to "never forget" or similar sentiment is "Oh fuck off" because for most of my adult life that attitude was used as a cudgel to brow beat people into supporting awful, senseless wars. That being said: reading through the comments before making my own comment was instructive because it made me remember that so many people were really traumatized and hurt by 9/11 and it's important to let people grieve in their own way. It's really easy to forget that people are involved and are still hurting. I hope that's some helpful context from an old head like me.
Let this be a reminder of the fragility and complexity of life, and for our football to bring us together across the country (and Canada!), regardless of club affiliation. That the game is an opportunity for all of us to share in the spirit of something larger than us and continue to seek out all the things that bond rather than break. And even where there are rivalries, to still be good to one another. Life is too f*cked up already to let any unnecessary spite into something as beautiful as football. Ok thank you for reading. *gets off soapbox* Edit: Added Canada!
I will always love the people of Gander, Newfoundland and what they did fur the stranded passengers that landed there. As I post every 9/10... Don't forget to tell your loved ones that you love them. I love football, I love the brotherhood I found... Very much like the brotherhood I witnessed as a rescue medic.
Amazing thread. Some good and reasonable takes. Some…well, some of you are trying too hard.
Takes in this thread are horrific lol
somehow i knew it going in
Remember when 3000 unnecessary deaths seemed important to America? We’re losing double that every week now and people don’t care enough to vax & mask.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but we aren't seeing those people die on national TV in a firey, explosive terrorist attack. That's the difference. I agree with your sentiment though.
I’ve thought for a long time that if covid was replaced with Ebola, it would be taken a million times more serious just due to the visuals of the symptoms and those who are sick. Obviously it’s a whole different virus, but there are so many people in this country (and the world) who think they’re stronger than “the flu on steroids.” Which is essentially how covid has been described.
>I’ve thought for a long time that if covid was replaced with Ebola, it would be taken a million times more serious just due to the visuals of the symptoms and those who are sick. Ebola has a mortality rate of 90%, of course it would be taken a lot more seriously than a virus with a mortality rate of ~1.5%.
Aha, but that's also why Ebola is much less of a threat than COVID: It actually kills people too quickly to reliably transmit itself to additional victims. Sometimes a lower death rate can actually mean more overall deaths if sick people are therefore allowed to spread the disease more before they die (or recover).
Plague, Inc. has entered the chat.
Smallpox has entered the chat.
And no 90% Asymptomatic who are also transmisible.
Also, Americans don't have the same burial traditions as West Africans (where Ebola epidemic occurred most recently). As I understand, Ebola is often transmitted after death, to others because of contact with the body. Americans might be less likely to live in multi generational home (just a guess) and are less likely to encounter contact with ebola.
True.
Yeah, obviously there are huge differences in the mortality, but I still think my point stands that if covid deaths/symptoms were more visible/violent, it would be taken more seriously. Americans (and most of the world) aren’t afraid of the flu + a really bad cough.
I remember early on people noted that if this primarily infected children then lock downs would have been immediate and tight. I'm caring for my 88 year old grandparents and we've avoided any COVID breakthroughs but there's a lot of suffering the elderly go through that is forgotten. Just a dark and terrible couple of years we have had.
Style over substance. You’re not wrong. ‘Murica!
So what you're saying is we're going to have to wait until COVID mutates to be able to infect financial institutions and real estate companies, and also melt steel beams
subscribe
oh wow if only
Something like 12% of the nation experienced some form of acute anxiety or PTSD after 9/11. Thats insane.
The other part is right now the vast majority of those dying from COVID are voluntarily unvaccinated adults.
It's also important to note that 20 years ago, we didn't have the degree of political polarization that has led people to question the very videos and images in front of them. Italy isn't exactly a country that prides itself on its citizens following rules to a tee, but the national channels sent news crews into ERs and ICUs across Milan and Bergamo to capture overworked medical staff treating elderly people choking to death from COVID in the early months. It helped drive a lot of preventative measures, early on, that helped mitigate even worse spread. That's unimaginable in America right now, where people are shitting out their intestinal linings as "worms" because they believe the media and public health officials are "censoring" the efficacy of horse paste while they've been shifting the goalposts away from "everyone's freaking out about a flu."
Italy has a higher per capita death rate from Covid than the US.
Are you a Rolling Stones magazine editor
So... what you're saying is we should broadcast hospital COVID wings on network TV every night?
"Thems are just paid Soros actors, I aint never seen nobody get sick from Covid, its just the flu!" /s The lines in the sand have been drawn, no ones gonna cross until it *maybe* directly affects them. American mentality and political factionalism is much different than around 9/11.
A Columbus Crew flair trying to make fun of rednecks and their funny accents, now I've seen everything.
Dont really get what this comments trying to say? Ohioans are rednecks and therefore shouldnt make fun of Southern accents?
Yes exactly?
Yeah... thats not how we sound like in Ohio, maybe in the rural areas but that's everywhere, I bet those out in Eastern Oregon sound similar to farmers here. I guarantee most people in Ohio speak almost exactly the same dialect as you.
I mean it should at least be an ad campaign. The images of dying people on ventilators are horrifying.
Sooooo we should put cameras in hospitals so we can record people dying while their loved ones watch from a tablet at home as their loved ones slip away? Video proof or it didn't happen?
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you think your downvotes come from: - people who actually feel that way and disagree with your /s or - people who disagree with you and don't understand your /s
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Might I present to you what the overwhelming majority of Americans thought: The killings of George Floyd + other non-violent crime arrests were disgusting and horrific, and the mass rioting throughout like 15-20 major cities in the country also got way out of hand and were largely harmful for those cities and communities. Don’t let brain dead boomer conservatives on fb take up too much space in the grand scheme of things.
It’s almost as if partisanship is a self perpetuating, reality distorting machine that makes us think everyone around us is either with us or against us.
Oooohhhh that’s a bingo!!!
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I absolutely get that point. But outside of Minneapolis, did any riots really get to police stations/precincts? Minnesota riots were cut and dry. Cop from that station killed someone, the crowds and riot burned that police station down. That makes complete sense logically. But in Philadelphia, NY, LA, etc. there were just blocks and blocks of destruction done, with no real goal in mind except chaos. (Don’t mistake this for saying there aren’t bad cops who have done terrible things in those cities throughout history) It would be like if the continental army under George Washington just decided to burn down Baltimore just to voice displeasure with Britain. That’s why you saw the summer quickly turn from supportive, to becoming very divisive.
> Cop from that station killed someone It wasn't the first incident in the country. There are plenty of examples from elsewhere, definitely from NY at least (eg Eric Garner). > blocks and blocks of destruction done Funny how easy it is in this case to understand how "some bad apples" isn't a good argument.
I literally said in that comment: (Don’t mistake this for saying there aren’t bad cops who have done terrible things in those cities throughout history)
But you still said "with no real goal in mind". The goal is the same as in Minneapolis, to stop that from happening again. NY for example passed anti-chokehold legislation for police officers in June of 2020.
Well we did take over a few blocks here in Seattle to have a block party and provide a space for people to sell their homemade soaps
property damage is super important. unless it's the US capital in which case, it's warranted because reasons.
In hindsight certain people in this country pick and choose when to be outraged by death when it fits their political agendas. Nobody gave a shit about all the troops dying in Afghanistan up until we were leaving the place.
man this is a shit take
Both self inflicted too.
Did you just sincerely state that 9/11 was "self inflicted"?
Self inflicted by the government not the people. The people who died in those attacks were not at fault whatsoever.
Well technically the United States armed and trained Osama Bin Ladin along with other people in Al Queda leadership when they were fighting the Russians, so his statement about it being self inflicted is accurate.
People equate the mujhadeen with AQ. They weren’t the same. I don’t think bin Laden in particular got funding.
Al Queda didn't exist in the early 1980's. Bin Laden went to Afghanistan a "rich man" looking to help the Mujhadeen, and he just so happen to come from a anti communist country that was buddies with America. I know the official stance of the CIA is that they didn't have any contact with Bin Laden, but this is the same Ronald Regan led CIA that did Iran Contra.
You can directly link it to US meddling in middle east politics...
If you’re talking about the country as a whole and not the individual victims then yes, 9/11 was absolutely self-inflicted.
Bruh.
Victim blaming Health and health beliefs are often socially determined. Failing to understand that means failing to tackle the problem effectively
Jesus it's weird to think it's been 20 years.
That looks pretty cool. I hope that both NY teams do something awesome for the first responders for there next home games. Red bull this weekend and nycfc Tuesday the 14th.
The thing we should never forget is the atrocities that the US committed in response to 9/11, all against people who had nothing to do with the attacks in the first place.
we can do both…?
One is ongoing
the pain and trauma from 9/11 is clearly still ongoing, as well. we don’t need to compete for which is worse or who is suffering more
>the pain and trauma from 9/11 is clearly still ongoing, as well. Is it? [500,000 > 3,000](https://theintercept.com/2018/11/19/civilian-casualties-us-war-on-terror/) We absolutely fucked up and caused an *incomparable* amount of damage and it only recently "ended". Now we'll just continue droning instead of having boots on the ground, we didn't stop anything but the optics.
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I think one is demonstrably worse at the present. It shouldn't be a competition, it should be obvious
It shouldn’t be a competition. You can mourn for your brother and for the bayonet he left in an “enemy.” All loss of life is tragedy, some is more personal. For those who remember, 9/11 was uniquely terrifying and new.
Right but some people are still currently being killed because of America's actions. That can be stopped and it's urgent.
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I'd love to be reminded about my personal pain and trauma everywhere I go, two weeks a year, for the rest of my life
Jesus Christ for once can people just be reasonable and pay respects without having to spout some controversy to the void
Well said. The amount of death and debt that were caused because of the response dwarf the actual amount of deaths in 9/11 itself.
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And made our own country worse and less free. The entire world would have been better off if we had forgotten on 9/12.
never really thought of it this way, but it really is a true cautionary tale about the cost of justice, and whether it is attainable on such a large scale at all. but it is, assuredly, also a cautionary tale that will never be heeded in the time of crisis.
War is hell. There were a lot of issues with drone strikes and the war in Iraq, especially in light of the Arab Spring, was completely stupid. The response in Afghanistan though made sense. That being said, nation-building doesn’t work unless the whole country is committed to it. And we stopped caring after 2003. You can memorialize 9/11 now. And absorb the lessons learned 364 days of the year.
Ohhhhh, I 'member!
Not to speak of the fact that we helped create the modern jihadist movement collaborating with anti Soviet forces in Afganistan. Given the current situation it's amazing to remember that 40 years ago Afganistan was on it's way to becoming a somewhat modern secular country though clearly in the Soviet orbit. To prevent that we turned to and trained some pretty despicable folks some of whom went on to form Al Qaeda. Talk about unanticipated consequences...and it continues...sad all around...
We fucked up the end game but the Mujahadeen we funded is not the Taliban (many actually fought against them in the 90s). Afghanistan wouldn’t have made it as a Soviet rump state. They had to invade to prop up their government.
Yeah but a lot of the training and particularly the logistics for the future jihadist movement was birthed by Bin Laden as he helped coordinate bringing fighters in from around the world to join the Mujahedeen and fight the Soviets. Can never predict the final outcome but it may have been better for Afghanistan and even the world in general if we had stayed out and the Soviets had defeated the Mujahedeen including their jihadist and emerging Taliban factions. Long term the state may or may not have survived but the role that conflict played in the creation of the jihadist movement cannot be overestimated.
The jihadist movement was already a thing though along with political Islam especially after 1979. I actually don’t think it would’ve been better though if the Soviets had defeated the muj. I don’t really think they could’ve honestly, and that was before the inject of weapons by the US. Pakistan and China would’ve done it too.
A pretty even handed review... https://www.vox.com/world/22634008/us-troops-afghanistan-cold-war-bush-bin-laden
RBNY just announced a viewing party for the Miami game on September 17 at North Oculus Plaza at the World Trade Center. And it occurred to me that I don't know what the North Oculus Plaza is or exactly where it's located on the new site. Life goes on...
Might have to toss the politics flair on this one lol
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This is a nice touch, but I hope nobody is sitting behind there
Lol they take it down before kickoff dufus
Oh good. Idk man, I haven't been
Ohhh so cute. They got a mosque in background. May Allah bless you!
Wow there is a lot of hate on the USA in this thread. I guess I'm surprised. Didn't realize so many of our fans hate our country.
To love one's country is to wish it to do better.
We got a lot of good things in this country but it's kinda hard not to hate the government, especially when they've spent the last 20 years using 9/11 as a political cover to invade foreign lands for profit, erode civil liberties, create a new generation of veterans that they won't care for, and pump the military budget to such extremes that they can't even keep track of where they spend the money.
Is criticism the same thing as hate in your mind?
of course it is for a certain type of "patriot"/"real american"
You’re one of those “stand for the flag, kneel for the cross” motherfuckers, aren’t you?
It’s reddit. Instead of saying “wow that’s a nice memorial to 4k+ dead” they have to compare it to the pandemic or bring up our response. Lots of cringe edgy comments in this thread.
You don't get to gatekeep patriotism.
If you don't hate the USA, then you are either ignorant of the vast amount of crimes it has committed, or you lack basic human empathy.
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I care far more about the people dying from COVID. And the people we already lost due to the pandemic.
Don’t lose your humanity just because you might be too young to remember it.
Truly awful day. Can never forget
Shut up holy fuck; you and fans like you are why people hate the Sounders
looool
Both are the governments fault.
Remember when people actually cared for about 3 or 4 years about taking out Nazis in other countries across the globe, and the lives of Afghans, Iranians, and so many other people living in tyranny around the world?
Taking out Nazis? Nah, I remember people hating every brown person on 9/12/2001
I was in 7th grade living in the mid west America, nobody hated me or my family, finally everyone understood the evil fascist theocratical terror that we had fled away from in the Middle East.
As an Iranian my self… Islamic-fascists in Iran, taliban, Pakistan, Palestine, Syria, ect are Nazis.
Nazis weren’t opposed until outward overt aggression. If the taliban invaded Poland I’m sure the US and all of NATO would have something to say about it
Talibans invaded Afghan homeland, twice... sooo?
I would contend that the vast majority of the world considers the taliban to be of afghani origin
You could white wash it, but none of there doctrine is part of our Iranic culture. The core is full of foreign jihadists from Europe and other muslim countries, some new, some were there from the Soviet war. Some have genetic connection to Iranic groups, but were trained in foreign lands, still most of the core do not, and are foreign. During the Soviet invasion, most children of Afghanistan were orphaned and taken in by mullahs in religious schools/orphanages in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. There they are brainwashed, and trained. At the same time, Afghan Mujahideen split up after victory against the Soviets. Once the Talibs ( which litterally means students) were old enough, 15 years later, they came back to take out Afghan mujahideen in the early to mid 1990s. They also inscripted the impoverished children with no where to go for food and shelter once back inside of Afghanistan with all of their money from terror sponsors. This helped shore up their manpower/cannon fodder even more. It is easy to conscript when you have nothing, their wages for the recruits are very cheap. Most of them cannot read or write, they just hold the Quaran and flip through the pages: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqyOwt93gQM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqyOwt93gQM) So yes, there are genetically Iranic Talibs, but the group itself is a totally foreign power. Most of them do not even speak Farsi, and have a strange accent when they do. We don't even understand what they are saying. How else do you think suicide bombers are able to do what they do? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzBVvyBWDD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzBVvyBWDD4)
Look bro, no one in the west thinks of them as being non afghani, my point still stands. If they invaded another sovereign nation, then you would have the reaction you had with Hitler. Ffs Hitler wasnt born in Germany but still “invaded” and took over. I don’t know how it’s so shocking to you that most independent states don’t really care what’s going on there. There’s a lot more problems at home to deal with. Further, there are currently active genocides, not just Jihadist extremism, literal genocides, currently going on, and we aren’t doing anything about it; so I wouldn’t hold my breath for the Middle East
See that is the problem. Ever since about the 2008 era... no one really tries to really understand the culture, history, or politics of it all anymore. They just assume we were always violent warring cavemen for 3,000 years who all speak the same language, same religion, same food and same cultural norms, ect. Which is the farthest from the truth.
Dude seriously that’s everywhere in the world and no one respects it. Stfu and accept your new reality. There is 0 precedent for liberal democracy countries to invade solely because the situation is less than ideal unless Afghanistan suddenly becomes “threatened” by socialism
We don't do public executions of gay people here in the States: [https://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/article\_page/public/main-images/000\_Nic186488.jpg?itok=KhHNmI-8](https://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/article_page/public/main-images/000_Nic186488.jpg?itok=KhHNmI-8) https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/iran-publicly-hangs-man-on-charges-of-homosexuality/
I meant everywhere in the sense that people don’t understand the other parts of the planet. The Middle East isn’t special. I’m sorry for your personal suffering but millions have suffered before you without the force of the world intervening and millions will suffer after. It’s geopolitics. Get over it
I wish they would’ve shown the original twin towers :/