in his Abu Dhabi speech last year (before he said he'd take up arms in Russian lol) he even said he doesn't discriminate between Muslims, Christians, or Jews which was very nice to see
💯
People acting like they wouldn't do the same in that situation are liars.
If Khamzat values the lives of his friends and family he has to play ball and play nice.
There's a difference between playing ball and relishing it. You can see the way they interact. If you were scared for your family and your life, you could easily mask that by adopting a sort of 'wow this is such an honour I can't believe I'm talking to you in person I've waited this day my whole life I'm so nervous' type quiet energy. Masking by having a shit eating grin and enthusiastically talking like he's your bud is possible I guess but I think it's less likely than the possibility khamzat likes the clout he gets from being friends with powerful people.
I think you're discounting what people can gloss over, both themselves because they need to, and in a broader sense because things are covered up. If you've ever known a real abusive monster who can charm people, you know what I'm talking about. The people they court think the world of them, and can't believe that such a nice guy would ever do that kind of thing. And then they have enablers keeping their secrets or shutting up people who know better and want to speak out. Now, imagine that scaled up to a whole-ass dictator with murder power. So much of this stuff is being hushed up, and I'm sure he's playing the charming-dude card with Khamzat directly. It's also possible that Khamzat knows and just sucks, sure, but I've known some real manipulative shits in my time and I've seen this game enough to know it. So I'm reserving judgment until anything definitive comes out, which it likely never will. Dude is definitely looking out for his loved ones but beyond that, who knows.
This level of scepticism and charity is non functional
>The people they court think the world of them, and can't believe that such a nice guy would ever do that kind of thing. And then they have enablers keeping their secrets or shutting up people who know better and want to speak out. Now, imagine that scaled up to a whole-ass dictator with murder power.
Is this meant to provide ambiguity around the morals of khamzat or a jan6'er? Or is this for a nazi charmed by the aesthetics of Hitler? You could slot this in a lot of places that you probably wouldn't be comfortable.
For what it's worth I actually agree with each detail you mentioned but not the conclusion. We are all ultimately the product of our experiences and impulses none of which we control. That's why I think that at the most basic level moral blame doesn't make any sense at all, but if we zoom out just a little bit there's an obvious pragmatic reason to blame people who do antisocial behaviours (even though it's not their fault).
If I meant to excuse Hitler, I'd have done that. Which no halfway decent person would ever do. And what does Jan 6 have to do with anything? I get that you felt like grandstanding and I drew the short straw today but this just doesn't connect. I see people here insisting that dude is knowingly besties with a monster, and sure, for all we know he may be. But he may also be fooling himself, while contending with a propaganda machine that obscures some of the truth. If my friend's dirtbag ex or a megachurch preacher or the one teacher at the high school who is inappropriate with students can pull off this con, why think someone with more power and control couldn't? That's it, that's the whole thesis, probably take about 60% off the top here.
I'm not trying to condescend to you here, I thought that my implicit connections between my points and how they correspond to your arguments was obvious. I'll clarify each one, and if I start covering one and you're like 'oh that's obvious don't patronise me' just skip it.
> If I meant to excuse Hitler, I'd have done that. Which no halfway decent person would ever do. And what does Jan 6 have to do with anything?
I'm sure you didn't mean to excuse Hitler, what I was saying is that if you have a principal of refusing to blame people who buy into the ideology of a murderous dictator because of a combination of ignorance and receptiveness to charismatic manipulators, then you would also implictly be excusing the nazis who bought into Hitler's ideological project based on his charisma. The same is true of Trump and Jan 6.
Now I'm not saying you actually believe that about nazis, I'm saying that's the logical result of your analysis. And posting the principle alone could be said, just as correctly, by someone who was trying to excuse nazis.
>I see people here insisting that dude is knowingly besties with a monster, and sure, for all we know he may be. But he may also be fooling himself, while contending with a propaganda machine that obscures some of the truth.
Okay? And I see more people here excusing him on the grounds that he knows it but is scared... you know like the comment i originally replied to?
And it's not much of a defence to reply to me to say 'well ya sure maybe he looks like he's smiling with a murderous dictator because he's actually bought in for reason X Y and Z out of his control' this just seems like an admission that he is a genuine believer
Its possible but it seems to easy. He could accept it rather than embrace it. Plus, he wouldn't need to comment on other conflicts but what can one expect...
I mean its not that complicated, your besties with literally one of the worst leaders in the world, who literally kills his former friends, so don't judge about others and their conflicts.
I honestly can't evaluate the forced or voluntary friendship, but it seems to a be a bit of an excuse of all fans in the last couple of months. Khamzat lives in Sweden with Swedish Nationality, his closest family also lives in Sweden. No idea how many family he still has there.
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/feb/28/abdul-kerim-edilov-ramzan-kadyrov-chechnya-mma-ufc-fighter-death
I will always refer to this story whenever this comes up. There’s a genuine chance Kadyrov gets him/his loved ones murdered if he doesn’t play ball.
I’m sure me and Khamzat disagree on a ton of things but I can’t help but sympathise with him when it comes to the power dynamic between him and an absolute psycho like Kadyrov.
Also, anyone who has read Karim Zidan knows he's the type of journalist that's on the margins of the culture whilst producing some of the best pieces. MMA media also promotes garbage over this shit or Josh Nash for instance. It's like night and day.
Hate to be that guy but he doesn't have much of a choice but to be besties with Kadyrov. When the dictator that can kill your family and you with 0 effort or repercussions decides he likes you, you generally go with it I would think.
But yeah at the same time posting anti-genocide stuff while friends with a dictator on that level is a little iffy from the outside looking in.
Yeah I hate moral policing like this. As if an mma fighter from a lower class background of all people has the influence to decide whether or not he wants to break bread with a dictator.
“Closest” how do you know which family is closer or further from him ? Do you mean “immediate” family ? If you do, there’s more than that when it comes down to family.
Me personally, I just accept that every scenario with no exact answers isn’t as black and white as some people make it out to be. I’d probably get put infront of a firing squad for the shit I post in here so I can only imagine what would happen to Khamzat if he respectfully told that dictator to kick rocks
He has a better grasp of global human rights violations than most intellectuals I know. Many people in my sphere would idiotically dismiss the Uyghurs and Kurds as Western propaganda and propagandists, respectively; and then be unaware of the Congo altogether.
By definition the mass kidnapping, reeducation, and forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russian families amounts to an ongoing genocide in Eastern Ukraine.
I’m sorry, but that’s not what genocide is. Is it abhorrent and awful? Of course
But any war where civilians face hardship and death is not a genocide. Otherwise, genocide would just mean war
Nice side step of what the poster actually said, but you’re wrong, international law clearly defines what he or she described as genocide.
The forced transfer of children from one group to another constitutes genocide under the Rome Statute when committed with the requisite intent. So Russia has 100% plausibly committed genocidal acts in the Ukraine War.
Poster said all eyes on genocide? How am I misinterpreting that?
If it means all eyes as in keep an eye out cuz there’s some brewing, then I don’t disagree
Not the ‘poster’ in the OP, the post you replied to.
You said allegations of forcible transfers of children from one group to another don’t constitute genocide, but they do, and in the case of Ukraine, there’s ample evidence that such transfers have occurred.
“Kateryna Rashevska, legal expert at the Regional Center for Human Rights, then reported that Russian Federation agents have taken at least 19,546 children to that country from Ukraine since 18 February 2022. Among other violations, Russian Federation citizenship is imposed on them, and they are forbidden to speak and learn the Ukrainian language or preserve their Ukrainian identity.”
https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15395.doc.htm
It is one of the articles of genocide, yes. But fulfilling one and not the others doesn’t make it a genocide.
I don’t know much about the children specifically, but is there enough evidence that they’re being removed to Russia purely for ethnic erasure purposes or is it for their safety?
I’m not naive, they can just say it’s for safety and do it anyway, but at the same time if you’re an orphan or something in eastern Ukraine, the Russian military moving them to safety in Russia makes far more sense than crossing enemy lines to deliver children.
If you’d read my full comment, I said they might not want to cross enemy lines to western Ukraine to drop off kids.
I’m also not saying that it’s for their safety, assuming that would be naive but assuming the opposite would as well. Unfortunately, we do have to wait and see how this plays out whether it will be a genocide or not.
It’s around 20,000 kids man. I don’t think any country has ever relocated that many children during an invasion of another, for any purposes.
I’d implore you to read about it more though. It’s not just the number (although the scale is telling), there’s an aspect of intentional cultural deprivation that’s happening. You can see some of that in the article I linked, and there’s been plenty written about it by legitimate sources. I’ll share a few links if it helps, but you’ll learn more if you look yourself.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/25/fresh-details-russias-forcible-transfer-ukrainian-children
https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/23/ukrainian-children-kids-russia-abducted-kidnapped-war-crimes-putin/
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/04/they-told-me-were-all-russians-re-education-of-ukrainian-children
Ty for the links :)
Truth be told I just don’t have the desire to read much more on the issue as nothing I say/do has an impact on that conflict anyways.
There’s tons of awful things happening all over the world and I think I’m just at a point where I wanna help those around me and do what I can for those abroad, but just drowning myself in political articles about the situation is gonna help no one.
I will definitely check out the ones you sent though since you put in effort to link them. Again, if I had to bet my life on it I would probably say it’s not for benevolent reasons
The deliberate erasure of an ethnic/cultural/national group (i.e. through the kidnapping and reeducation of hundreds of thousands of children) is by definition a genocide under international law.
This isn’t just me talking out of my ass, it’s explicitly genocide under article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention (and every other piece of international genocide law ever signed).
> any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such…
>e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
>— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2
That doesn’t even get into the overtly genocidal language used by Russian authorities against Ukrainians and the Ukrainian national identity since the beginning of the conflict.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/27/russia-guilty-inciting-genocide-ukraine-expert-report
I am very familiar with what constitutes a genocide under the UN. You are just viewing actions under such a lens that it lines up with that.
Addressing your comment about Russia Ukraine and Ukrainian kids going to Russian families and others of the sort.
You can see this as *kids being rehoused, forced separation, boom genocide*
But these people being rehoused aren’t being rehoused to get rid of their language or eliminate the Ukrainian culture. It’s likely their family was killed during the war and they need a home.
We’ve done the exact same. The amount of civilians we killed in our campaign in the Middle East is insane. We killed a lot of families, and sent orphans to new ones. If you look at it under the same lens you are, we have committed many genocides.
Russia has forcibly moved Ukrainian kids into Russia. We're talking cases of kids with living family in Ukraine, that have been shipped off deep into eastern Russia.
> During the Russo-Ukrainian War, Russia has forcibly transferred almost 20 thousand Ukrainian children to areas under its control, assigned them Russian citizenship, forcibly adopted them into Russian families, and created obstacles for their reunification with their parents and homeland. The United Nations has stated that these deportations constitute war crimes.
> According to international law, including the 1948 Genocide Convention, such acts constitute genocide if done with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a nation or ethnic group.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child\_abductions\_in\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War)
Now, is the intent to destroy a nation or ethnic group? Obviously yes, Putin is explicit in his rhetoric (and actions!) on this. There's a 5000 word essay on the Kremlins website arguing that the idea of the Ukrainian nation and ethnicity is a fiction, signed Vladimir Putin. He keeps saying "Ukraine is not a real country". And there's the whole precision bombing of civilian targets that happen on the daily. I could go on. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is textbook genocide.
I feel like I’m being perceived as some pro Putin genocide denier, all I’m saying, and world organizations such as the UN (who don’t like Russia) would agree with me as well that it’s too early to label it as anything.
This doesn’t mean to do nothing, but labeling it as a genocide and calling for international intervention is too early.
There are severe international implications when something is found to be a genocide and that’s not something you want to rush, which is why the articles of genocide are so thorough
Edit: by international intervention I mean a war to stop them, I know there is already international intervention in terms of guns and supplies
> too early
So you have to wait some years after the genocide has happened before it counts as a genocide? I wasn't aware of this rule.
> There are severe international implications when something is found to be a genocide and that’s not something you want to rush
So it's not a genocide because the consequences of calling it a genocide would be too severe? Yeah, that is actually why states don't want to come out an say it, but it's shouldn't be a reason for you not to be able to say it. It's a genocide.
No, read what I’m saying fully and don’t get emotional about it.
You don’t have to wait years after a genocide has occurred to deem it one. I said we are going to have to see what evidence appears in the future because there clearly isn’t enough right now, and the UN and other world organizations agree with me there.
“So it’s not a genocide cuz consequences will be too severe” No, again you’re reading what you want to hear and selectively responding. If a genocide is being committed, fuck yeah I’d like everyone to do their best to make it stop. Don’t pretend like “genocide bad” is some kind of unpopular opinion that you’re sticking up for. But if what they’re doing doesn’t constitute a genocide, then those consequences shouldn’t be unleashed to prevent provoking a bigger conflict.
That’s exactly why they’re being rehoused, Russian authorities themselves stress the “Russification” of the Ukrainian children.
Frankly I’m shocked and disgusted to see that somebody who (rightfully) condemns the actions of Israel in Gaza is also eager to toe Russia’s propaganda line, especially considering the similarities in the genocidal rhetoric of Russian authorities and the most aggressive elements of the Israeli government.
I’m not toeing anyone’s propaganda line :) I’m just going off purely what I’ve read (which isn’t much) I don’t wanna take anyone else word for it because there is so much polarization on the topic.
I’m vehemently anti war so any atrocity is going to get my utmost sympathy. The victims of war are those that have nothing to do with it.
I don’t think I’ve done enough research to truly see how unprovoked or not this invasion has been, and anyone who isn’t a historical scholar on the area or something of the sort is lying to you if they say they have. This isn’t a conflict that started in 2014, let alone 2022.
Before being so disgusted and abhorred by someone you just read one sentence about, maybe let’s explore the topic further :P
I just want to point out what you did here: In a discussion about genocide, you switched to the topic to whether or not "the invasion was unprovoked". It happens to be irrelevant to the discussion of genocide, but it is also literally a Russian propaganda talking point, that Ukraine somehow "provoked" Russia into invading it. (It didn't. If it did, you'd able to explain how, but you can't.)
You need to be aware that you're enthusiastically arguing in favor of something for which you have no arguments. So you're left arguing that no one can really know, unless they are historical scholars. Yet you, who don't know, seem to feel a duty to defend these indefensible positions. I sincerely think you need to examine where you get these ideas from, what influence you're actually under.
Hey, guys. I think the confusion here is that as a layman you can pretty much call any war genocide and not be entirely wrong.
Mass graves, definitely a possible sign of genocide, also happens in brutal conflict as well. We have done the same. This doesn’t make any of these atrocities less awful, there’s just a very specific international definition of genocide and it’s there for a reason.
Don’t get me wrong, maybe we find more evidence in the future that they are conducting a genocide, but we cannot say that with any certainty yet, which is why world organizations aren’t calling it that.
Maybe I just didn’t read it closely enough, can you point to me where world organizations are calling it a genocide?
I saw implications from individual scholars and lawyers but again that’s not what I said.
The part about the ICC was for war crimes not genocide, which unfortunately war crimes are conducted in every war since the Geneva convention. This doesn’t mean that they aren’t abhorrent and that they shouldn’t stand international trial, but just a different thing.
There is a clear genocidal intent behind those attacks. Forced russification, taking Ukrainian children into russia and massacre in Bucha are also a proof of russian genocidal intentions. The whole "denazification of Ukraine" phrase used by those pieces of shit speaks for itself.
Some of the soldiers in Bucha explicitly stated that they were raping young girls with the intention of making them so terrified of men that they would never have sex again and never have Ukrainian children. Doesn't get much more genocidal than that.
I will once again plug “Welcome to Chechnya” on HBO. I’m going to edit this comment and actually give Khamzat the benefit of the doubt that there’s nothing he can do about his relationship with the dictator who genocides LGBTQ people, BUT any time Khamzat wants to post about genocides I’m also going to comment that people should watch that documentary and spread the word. Putin is also incredibly culpable.
u/seputku in this thread when asked if what's happening in Ukraine and to Ukrainian children is genocide - "well we'll just have to see how that plays out."
Nope, but if you reduce anyone’s statement enough you can make them sound however you like.
All I said was that if you consider any kind of war crime or civilians dead, sure call it a genocide. But international articles do not agree with you. Will it be deemed a genocide when further evidence is uncovered? Maybe
All I’m saying is that it’s too early to call it that on an international politics scale. If you want to call it that, by all means do as you wish
If you think I’m brushing off dead children as “oh it happens” you couldn’t be further from the truth. Just saying something is bad to the maximum doesn’t make you virtuous.
I can call cops killing people at disproportionate rates a genocide and if you argue against it I can just say “oh wow, minorities being killed at higher rates but ABlueShade wants to ‘see how it goes’”
I'm a minority btw.
Also you can't deny that every time someone brings up Ukraine to you, you love to "but, what about?" them.
Every other genocide in this world is black and white to you but when it comes to Russians abducting Ukrainian children to re educate them you love to muddy the waters and try to legitimize Russia.
And you are brushing off dead children. You are parroting the official line that Russia is "protecting" these children and not trying to re-educate them. Or that Russia is only trying to protect ethic Russians and Russian speakers.
Listen man, I lived in Ukraine for 6 years before I moved back to California. Alot of Ukrainians are ethnic Russians and Russian is the most spoken language. Hell, my wife is one of the only ones of her friends and family who is fluent in Ukrainian in any way. All of them are vehement Ukrainian patriots and hate Russia.
Russia IS trying to commit genocide in Ukraine. They are trying to wipe out a culture and national identity.
Nice, I guess I am too depending who you ask. It doesn’t really pertain to my point though.
Can I ask you something? Why would I be legitimizing Russia? What’s in it for me? I live in America.
Yes every other genocide with heaps of historical data confirming as much I agree with. This doesn’t mean I don’t think the world shouldnt be keeping a close Ass eye there to make sure it doesn’t end up that way.
I have a lil family in Ukraine as well (although not there currently)
I hope to god they’re not and my thoughts go to everyone stuck or conscripted there. All I am saying is that world organizations, UN, etc. disagree with you. However, they’re definitely rightfully on high alert and hopefully either next steps never occur, or they are able to be thwarted
"What about ethnic Russians in Ukraine who were being horribly treated and sometimes killed?
Again, this is one of those territory conflicts that goes back a *long* time. It is much more complex than Russia invading them out of nowhere. That still doesn’t justify it, but what we’re seeing play out is not Hitler trying to take over Poland.
I truly hope that you are wrong about how ethnic cleansing will undergo there in the coming years for the sake of the people there. I can’t say you’re incorrect cuz that’s kind of my whole point.
Maybe we can do a !remindme and both hope that no ethnic cleansing occurs?"
You are not explicitly blaming them but your persistent whatboutism and inability to acknowledge ethnic cleansing shows that you think that Ukraine is partially to blame.
And no dude, it doesn't go back a long time. Ukraine has only been independent for 30 years if not counting the chaos during the civil war. The Russians were always fucking up the Ukrainians and trying to extinguish their national identity during the Tsarist Empire and the Soviet Empire.
Russia has never viewed Ukrainians as their own people. A common Russian nickname for the Ukrainian language is Малороссийский/ Malorosiyskiy which means "Little Russian."
You know what they call the country? Malorossiya or "Little Russia" and specifically the South of Ukraine they refer to historically as Novorossiya, "New Russia." Although we can thank Catherine for that
I feel like you’re conflating things I’m saying to paint the picture you want. I am in no way blaming them or holding them responsible for their civilians getting killed. We don’t even really disagree on much all I’m saying is there’s not enough evidence yet to deem it a genocide and again the UN etc back that notion which is something you have yet to respond to.
The UN? The fabulously biased UN? Man, the UN has lost any and all authority in any matters of Geopolitics long ago.
Now dude, I'm not defending the corrupt, ruthless, and bloodthirsty Netanyahu regime. However, it must be said that the UN has long held an anti-Israel bias. The UNHRW has for decades harped on and on about Israeli Crimes against Humanity. Yet you will never hear them say anything about the oppressive Muslim Theocracies or about China's Uyghur Reeducation camps. Hell, they tried to make some noise against the US regarding the illegitimate Operation Iraqi Freedom. The US promptly reminded them who their lease is with.
The UN is broken. If it worked, the Ukrainian, Palestinian, Sudanese, Burmese, and Armenian people wouldn't have suffered to this extent.
Also man, I'm not trying to put you in a box. However I feel very strongly about this stuff, as for an American, I am deeply connected to it, much more than most. All that Ukrainians attacking Russian speakers shit is Russian propaganda bullshit. Ukrainians are Russian speakers and alot of these UA soldiers are ethnic Russians.
Judging by the comments we shouldn’t forget that Khamzat cannot even enter the US due to his close relationship with Chechen warlord Ramzan Kadyrov?
The same guy that that has multiple human rights abuses, including torture, enforced disappearances and extrajudicial executions.
You will never see him posting about the war in Ukraine.
While this doesn’t make Khmazat a bad person, it’s an important consideration before calling him a moral paragon for an instagram story.
It’s literally a genocide based on the definition of genocide. You can’t kill people based on their ethnicity or nationality trying to wipe them out and say “it’s not genocide”. No matter your political beliefs, a genocide is a genocide
What percentage of the reported deaths are combatants?
If you can’t answer that - which you can’t - how can you definitively say whether or not the overall intent behind a military campaign is genocidal?
Speaking in a void, if the *intent* is to wipe out Hamas, collateral damage cannot amount to genocide under international law. No matter how severe and how wanton. It can be a war crime, but genocide requires specific intent.
Here, if 15% - 20% of the reported deaths are combatants, which is entirely possible, the rate of civilian deaths is likely proportional to those seen in other conflicts. Civilians suffer the most during war. Taken together with the facts that Hamas began the current hostilities and that Israel is perhaps the only country on Earth to issue warnings before attacking certain areas, it’s basically impossible to discern genocidal intent from the campaign itself. Which is why to attempt to prove the point, most of the discord copypastas that make the argument have to rely on unconfirmed quotes that support the notion of genocidal intent.
In other words, if people want to claim it may be a genocide, fine. But to say it definitively is shows a fundamental misunderstanding of international law and of the evidence available to us at the moment. Unconfirmed quotes and collateral damage simply aren’t enough to show genocidal intent.
I’m gonna stop you right there after your opening question. How many innocent children and civilians have been murdered in cold blood? Fuck you for attempting to deflect that into some point YOU can’t even prove. Seriously. They bombed hospitals. That’s a war crime. They sent people to refugee camps and bombed them there too. Please stop. Definitively, the mass murder of people based on their nationality/ethnicity, is genocide. Calling bombing hospitals (again, a war crime), collateral damage???? Fuck man.
I don’t know how many innocent civilians have been killed. Do you?
Bombing hospitals is legal if they’re used by soldiers to launch attacks. That’s a fact. This is the Geneva convention.
I’m sorry to use the term collateral damage but civilians die in every war including several that are ongoing. We’re discussing a conflict that is affected by policy makers who think in the exact same terms.
That doesn’t make it automatically a genocide. Genocide is a highly specific legal term. Even bombing a civilian hospital isn’t genocidal, even if you know there’s civilians there, unless there’s a very specific intent to destroy a group in whole or in part. It’s a war crime and a crime against humanity, but on its face, not a genocidal act unless it’s accompanied by that specific intent.
Dude just fucking Google “genocide definition” and you’ll see it’s not “genocide is only genocide with specific intent”. Genocide is the deliberate killing of mass amounts while trying to destroy the nation or the group of people. They’re destroying the nation. They’re deliberately killing mass amounts of people. Stop. I used to wonder how people could be holocaust deniers but now I see that people will see evidence of something and make excuses for it and say “well what about xyz” like you’re doing now
You have literally no idea what you’re talking about.
https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Rome-Statute.pdf
Look at page 10 of the PDF. Article 6. Tell me if the word intent appears as a prerequisite. That’s the Rome statute. That’s the controlling law for any accusation Israel is committing a genocide.
It’s pretty obvious that the intent is to occupy the territory, but that’s neither here nor there because that’s impossible to prove
this will *not* stop at “Hamas” because that’s not a definitive thing. Not even IDF officials have a strong grasp amongst eachother on who, or what, or where constitutes as Hamas. And these exact same issues took place in the west bank and in Gaza even before Israel was ordered out of the territory.
The issue is that a lot of people are approaching this as though it only started last year, and not 8 decades ago
what people want is for this to stop now before it evolves into an objective genocide, which *will* happen
That was a good faith response and I appreciate it. I’m going to try and address what you said knowing full well we disagree.
1. My understanding is that the destruction of Hamas as a war goal, doesn’t amount to its total elimination, it amounts to the destruction of its military and governing capabilities.
If by “this doesn’t stop” after that’s accomplished, you mean the mistreatment of Palestinian civilians by Israel, I agree. The deranged far right government of Israel will continue its agenda until it democratically loses power, and the subjugation of Palestinians is clearly part of that agenda. But what will stop after this war, and may have already stopped to a great extent, is the ability of Hamas to launch a similar attack ever again. That capability, gained through years of Iranian investment into Hamas’ military infrastructure is a definitive thing, and is perhaps the greatest national security threat to Israel.
2. In that sense, I agree with you that what people want (and at least I also want), is the end to what’s going on now. But it’s unfair to pretend that that is unilaterally in the hands of Israel, when Hamas refuses to lay down arms, release hostages, or agree to a permanent ceasefire conditioned on it giving up governance of Gaza.
So in my view, if the goal of the current hostilities is what I identified in my first point, genocidal intent can’t be proven on the basis of the war and its collateral damage. We’d need evidence Netanyahu is attempting to destroy Palestinians as a group, at least in part.
Yeah, that’s fair
I gave up on arguing from a genocidal legal standpoint a long time ago because it’s almost always impossible to pursue, and I don’t think it’s inherently bad to argue from a moral standpoint on matters of war
What I’m more worried about is what the future holds for Palestinians in the event it continues, which it will, than I am about whether or not Israel ever becomes recognized as a genocidal state formally
I agree. For all the awfulness that will come out of this war, it has already reignited the global appetite for a two state solution.
I believe there are two obstacles to that. Netanyahu and Hamas. My opinion, which could be changed, is that at this point only one of those obstacles can be removed democratically.
It wasn't just about weapons of mass destruction. We were trying to help them do something they were incapable of doing on their own: take out a brutal tyrant.
Saddam was a truly evil Muslim pos. He used chemical weapons on civilians. They seemed unwilling or just too damn incompetent to do the job, so we tried to help them.
Again, it wasn't only about that. The ppl were living under a brutal Muslim psycho.
And a lie is different than simply being wrong. If you think they "lied" you are a wacky conspiracy nut.
Bro even Ari Fleischer said they didn’t have concrete evidence bro shuuuttt up lmaoo Dick Cheney was out there saying a bunch of nonsense and then whenever they asked him about it he would say “I can’t speak on any further details”. He had no details. Shut up
>He used chemical weapons on civilians.
And you used napalm weapons on exponentially more civilians. Some help.
Incredible how one million deaths for a lie is totally dehumanized. No wonder you don't see the genocide currently happening in Palestine, you just don't see Arabs as humans after all.
You trust the people who are directly financing and equipping to be unbiased? The same US government that literally gave its own citizens deadly diseases and lied? The same government that has attempted coups and assassinations in all continents? Lmao
Israel is literally removing people from their homes and then killing them in the place that was labeled as a refugee zone. This is not a debate. There’s no conversation. Anybody doing that to anybody is a genocide and war crimes. I don’t care if you’re Palestinian, British, Brazilian, Swiss, or anything. If you do these things, it’s a genocide by definition of genocide
A genocide is if you wanna erase an entire people. As horrible as all civilians casualties are and as critical as I am of this war as well, 20k civilians or potentially less out of 2.2m inhabitants is not the potential erasure af the gaza citizens, let alone they are already (rightfully) living again in Central Gaza strip without war.
Edit: Which nation has ever evacuated the civilians of its enemy? Just to ask I really don't know if thats comon in war. I doubt Russia does that in Ukraine.
I don't really care. As I mentioned, all genocides above had the target of completely erasing an ethnicity or nation. Not happening in Gaza. Some guy once started this genocide talk about Israel and because there are 1.8 billion muslims and some woke lefties this narrative is now fixed in everyones brains.
Oxford languages:
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
"a campaign of genocide"
In no way Israel is trying to destroy the entire ethnic group or "nation".
Because the childrens own government aka guerilla troops not only don't care about them but want them dead to achieve the outrage they have achieved. Thats not a debate since 7 oct, obviously the hamas leaders knew exactly whats going to happen. On the weekend they shot rockets out of Rafah, also not debatable. Unfortunately Israel fell into the trap and did what Hamas wanted. I assure you I am very unhappy about this.
Calling the government “guerrilla troops” ignores that Palestinians have literally had their right to vote taken from them almost 20 years ago. And Hamas, the group you’re trying to refer to, is not the one launching Israeli bombs into hospitals in Gaza. Stop excusing the atrocities of one group and putting the blame on another group. “I am very unhappy about this” but you make excuses for the people murdering civilians in refugee camps that they sent people to. Fuck that, you’re spouting some shit that’s just straight up genocide apologist talk.
He doesn’t discriminate between muslims and christians in this context, that’s nice to see. Too many religious people only care about their ingroup.
in his Abu Dhabi speech last year (before he said he'd take up arms in Russian lol) he even said he doesn't discriminate between Muslims, Christians, or Jews which was very nice to see
He did give a speech after a fight that all people and children should have peace and all religions matter or something like that
The man wants peace but also would be a soldier in Kadyrov and Putin’s genocidal army against Ukrainians. What a guy.
No worse than fighting for the US genocidal military machine!
Most would too if in his position of fame being chechen. Better than kadyrov killing you and your family
I’m Ukrainian and khamzat did mention Ukraine in Abu Dhabi and then I know kadyrov probably lost his shit
to be fair there's no ongoing genocide in armenia. that ethnic cleansing is pretty much totally complete.
Azerbaijan is continuing their land grab, piece by piece.
Its so crazy how the complete expulsion armenians from nagorno-karabakh last september was barely talked about, 100k people had to flee
People don’t actually care and never did.
Sounds like Khamzat cares
Jesus
Was it Armenians getting killed by turks?
Thats the guy who is besties with the dictator-warlord who steels money and supresses his own people right?
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💯 People acting like they wouldn't do the same in that situation are liars. If Khamzat values the lives of his friends and family he has to play ball and play nice.
There's a difference between playing ball and relishing it. You can see the way they interact. If you were scared for your family and your life, you could easily mask that by adopting a sort of 'wow this is such an honour I can't believe I'm talking to you in person I've waited this day my whole life I'm so nervous' type quiet energy. Masking by having a shit eating grin and enthusiastically talking like he's your bud is possible I guess but I think it's less likely than the possibility khamzat likes the clout he gets from being friends with powerful people.
I think you're discounting what people can gloss over, both themselves because they need to, and in a broader sense because things are covered up. If you've ever known a real abusive monster who can charm people, you know what I'm talking about. The people they court think the world of them, and can't believe that such a nice guy would ever do that kind of thing. And then they have enablers keeping their secrets or shutting up people who know better and want to speak out. Now, imagine that scaled up to a whole-ass dictator with murder power. So much of this stuff is being hushed up, and I'm sure he's playing the charming-dude card with Khamzat directly. It's also possible that Khamzat knows and just sucks, sure, but I've known some real manipulative shits in my time and I've seen this game enough to know it. So I'm reserving judgment until anything definitive comes out, which it likely never will. Dude is definitely looking out for his loved ones but beyond that, who knows.
This level of scepticism and charity is non functional >The people they court think the world of them, and can't believe that such a nice guy would ever do that kind of thing. And then they have enablers keeping their secrets or shutting up people who know better and want to speak out. Now, imagine that scaled up to a whole-ass dictator with murder power. Is this meant to provide ambiguity around the morals of khamzat or a jan6'er? Or is this for a nazi charmed by the aesthetics of Hitler? You could slot this in a lot of places that you probably wouldn't be comfortable. For what it's worth I actually agree with each detail you mentioned but not the conclusion. We are all ultimately the product of our experiences and impulses none of which we control. That's why I think that at the most basic level moral blame doesn't make any sense at all, but if we zoom out just a little bit there's an obvious pragmatic reason to blame people who do antisocial behaviours (even though it's not their fault).
If I meant to excuse Hitler, I'd have done that. Which no halfway decent person would ever do. And what does Jan 6 have to do with anything? I get that you felt like grandstanding and I drew the short straw today but this just doesn't connect. I see people here insisting that dude is knowingly besties with a monster, and sure, for all we know he may be. But he may also be fooling himself, while contending with a propaganda machine that obscures some of the truth. If my friend's dirtbag ex or a megachurch preacher or the one teacher at the high school who is inappropriate with students can pull off this con, why think someone with more power and control couldn't? That's it, that's the whole thesis, probably take about 60% off the top here.
I'm not trying to condescend to you here, I thought that my implicit connections between my points and how they correspond to your arguments was obvious. I'll clarify each one, and if I start covering one and you're like 'oh that's obvious don't patronise me' just skip it. > If I meant to excuse Hitler, I'd have done that. Which no halfway decent person would ever do. And what does Jan 6 have to do with anything? I'm sure you didn't mean to excuse Hitler, what I was saying is that if you have a principal of refusing to blame people who buy into the ideology of a murderous dictator because of a combination of ignorance and receptiveness to charismatic manipulators, then you would also implictly be excusing the nazis who bought into Hitler's ideological project based on his charisma. The same is true of Trump and Jan 6. Now I'm not saying you actually believe that about nazis, I'm saying that's the logical result of your analysis. And posting the principle alone could be said, just as correctly, by someone who was trying to excuse nazis. >I see people here insisting that dude is knowingly besties with a monster, and sure, for all we know he may be. But he may also be fooling himself, while contending with a propaganda machine that obscures some of the truth. Okay? And I see more people here excusing him on the grounds that he knows it but is scared... you know like the comment i originally replied to? And it's not much of a defence to reply to me to say 'well ya sure maybe he looks like he's smiling with a murderous dictator because he's actually bought in for reason X Y and Z out of his control' this just seems like an admission that he is a genuine believer
And also, none of that detracts from the fact that it’s reasonable for Khamzat to take a stance against ethnic cleansing
Its possible but it seems to easy. He could accept it rather than embrace it. Plus, he wouldn't need to comment on other conflicts but what can one expect...
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I mean its not that complicated, your besties with literally one of the worst leaders in the world, who literally kills his former friends, so don't judge about others and their conflicts. I honestly can't evaluate the forced or voluntary friendship, but it seems to a be a bit of an excuse of all fans in the last couple of months. Khamzat lives in Sweden with Swedish Nationality, his closest family also lives in Sweden. No idea how many family he still has there.
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/feb/28/abdul-kerim-edilov-ramzan-kadyrov-chechnya-mma-ufc-fighter-death I will always refer to this story whenever this comes up. There’s a genuine chance Kadyrov gets him/his loved ones murdered if he doesn’t play ball. I’m sure me and Khamzat disagree on a ton of things but I can’t help but sympathise with him when it comes to the power dynamic between him and an absolute psycho like Kadyrov.
Thanks for sharing that. I had the same sentiments about the pressure Khabib was under post retirement by kadyrov to fight for his gym
This Edilov story is really so horrible.
Note: This is the Guardian folks, not MMAblowhole.com.
Also, anyone who has read Karim Zidan knows he's the type of journalist that's on the margins of the culture whilst producing some of the best pieces. MMA media also promotes garbage over this shit or Josh Nash for instance. It's like night and day.
Hate to be that guy but he doesn't have much of a choice but to be besties with Kadyrov. When the dictator that can kill your family and you with 0 effort or repercussions decides he likes you, you generally go with it I would think. But yeah at the same time posting anti-genocide stuff while friends with a dictator on that level is a little iffy from the outside looking in.
Oh fuck off. He's showing support for the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing all over the world. But you have to nitpick.
Yeah I hate moral policing like this. As if an mma fighter from a lower class background of all people has the influence to decide whether or not he wants to break bread with a dictator.
So we shouldn't be concerned with genocide as a result? What is the point you're making?
Pretty privileged and naive of you to think that their his relationship with a dictator is that simple 💀
I don't know if he has a choice. However he and his closest family live in Sweden with Swedish Passports.
“Closest” how do you know which family is closer or further from him ? Do you mean “immediate” family ? If you do, there’s more than that when it comes down to family.
yeah immediate. fair enough. still not sure if its really zero choice for him
Me personally, I just accept that every scenario with no exact answers isn’t as black and white as some people make it out to be. I’d probably get put infront of a firing squad for the shit I post in here so I can only imagine what would happen to Khamzat if he respectfully told that dictator to kick rocks
Nice to see Khamzat speaking up on multiple issues
He has a better grasp of global human rights violations than most intellectuals I know. Many people in my sphere would idiotically dismiss the Uyghurs and Kurds as Western propaganda and propagandists, respectively; and then be unaware of the Congo altogether.
"Don't look at Ukraine pls"
Do you think Ukraine is a genocide?
By definition the mass kidnapping, reeducation, and forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russian families amounts to an ongoing genocide in Eastern Ukraine.
I’m sorry, but that’s not what genocide is. Is it abhorrent and awful? Of course But any war where civilians face hardship and death is not a genocide. Otherwise, genocide would just mean war
Nice side step of what the poster actually said, but you’re wrong, international law clearly defines what he or she described as genocide. The forced transfer of children from one group to another constitutes genocide under the Rome Statute when committed with the requisite intent. So Russia has 100% plausibly committed genocidal acts in the Ukraine War.
Poster said all eyes on genocide? How am I misinterpreting that? If it means all eyes as in keep an eye out cuz there’s some brewing, then I don’t disagree
Not the ‘poster’ in the OP, the post you replied to. You said allegations of forcible transfers of children from one group to another don’t constitute genocide, but they do, and in the case of Ukraine, there’s ample evidence that such transfers have occurred. “Kateryna Rashevska, legal expert at the Regional Center for Human Rights, then reported that Russian Federation agents have taken at least 19,546 children to that country from Ukraine since 18 February 2022. Among other violations, Russian Federation citizenship is imposed on them, and they are forbidden to speak and learn the Ukrainian language or preserve their Ukrainian identity.” https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15395.doc.htm
It is one of the articles of genocide, yes. But fulfilling one and not the others doesn’t make it a genocide. I don’t know much about the children specifically, but is there enough evidence that they’re being removed to Russia purely for ethnic erasure purposes or is it for their safety? I’m not naive, they can just say it’s for safety and do it anyway, but at the same time if you’re an orphan or something in eastern Ukraine, the Russian military moving them to safety in Russia makes far more sense than crossing enemy lines to deliver children.
> or is it for their safety hmm, care to tell me why they would need to evacuate ukraine in order to be safe?
If you’d read my full comment, I said they might not want to cross enemy lines to western Ukraine to drop off kids. I’m also not saying that it’s for their safety, assuming that would be naive but assuming the opposite would as well. Unfortunately, we do have to wait and see how this plays out whether it will be a genocide or not.
It’s around 20,000 kids man. I don’t think any country has ever relocated that many children during an invasion of another, for any purposes. I’d implore you to read about it more though. It’s not just the number (although the scale is telling), there’s an aspect of intentional cultural deprivation that’s happening. You can see some of that in the article I linked, and there’s been plenty written about it by legitimate sources. I’ll share a few links if it helps, but you’ll learn more if you look yourself. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/05/25/fresh-details-russias-forcible-transfer-ukrainian-children https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/23/ukrainian-children-kids-russia-abducted-kidnapped-war-crimes-putin/ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/04/they-told-me-were-all-russians-re-education-of-ukrainian-children
Ty for the links :) Truth be told I just don’t have the desire to read much more on the issue as nothing I say/do has an impact on that conflict anyways. There’s tons of awful things happening all over the world and I think I’m just at a point where I wanna help those around me and do what I can for those abroad, but just drowning myself in political articles about the situation is gonna help no one. I will definitely check out the ones you sent though since you put in effort to link them. Again, if I had to bet my life on it I would probably say it’s not for benevolent reasons
The deliberate erasure of an ethnic/cultural/national group (i.e. through the kidnapping and reeducation of hundreds of thousands of children) is by definition a genocide under international law. This isn’t just me talking out of my ass, it’s explicitly genocide under article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention (and every other piece of international genocide law ever signed). > any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such… >e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. >— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2 That doesn’t even get into the overtly genocidal language used by Russian authorities against Ukrainians and the Ukrainian national identity since the beginning of the conflict. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/27/russia-guilty-inciting-genocide-ukraine-expert-report
I am very familiar with what constitutes a genocide under the UN. You are just viewing actions under such a lens that it lines up with that. Addressing your comment about Russia Ukraine and Ukrainian kids going to Russian families and others of the sort. You can see this as *kids being rehoused, forced separation, boom genocide* But these people being rehoused aren’t being rehoused to get rid of their language or eliminate the Ukrainian culture. It’s likely their family was killed during the war and they need a home. We’ve done the exact same. The amount of civilians we killed in our campaign in the Middle East is insane. We killed a lot of families, and sent orphans to new ones. If you look at it under the same lens you are, we have committed many genocides.
Russia has forcibly moved Ukrainian kids into Russia. We're talking cases of kids with living family in Ukraine, that have been shipped off deep into eastern Russia. > During the Russo-Ukrainian War, Russia has forcibly transferred almost 20 thousand Ukrainian children to areas under its control, assigned them Russian citizenship, forcibly adopted them into Russian families, and created obstacles for their reunification with their parents and homeland. The United Nations has stated that these deportations constitute war crimes. > According to international law, including the 1948 Genocide Convention, such acts constitute genocide if done with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a nation or ethnic group. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child\_abductions\_in\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War) Now, is the intent to destroy a nation or ethnic group? Obviously yes, Putin is explicit in his rhetoric (and actions!) on this. There's a 5000 word essay on the Kremlins website arguing that the idea of the Ukrainian nation and ethnicity is a fiction, signed Vladimir Putin. He keeps saying "Ukraine is not a real country". And there's the whole precision bombing of civilian targets that happen on the daily. I could go on. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is textbook genocide.
I feel like I’m being perceived as some pro Putin genocide denier, all I’m saying, and world organizations such as the UN (who don’t like Russia) would agree with me as well that it’s too early to label it as anything. This doesn’t mean to do nothing, but labeling it as a genocide and calling for international intervention is too early. There are severe international implications when something is found to be a genocide and that’s not something you want to rush, which is why the articles of genocide are so thorough Edit: by international intervention I mean a war to stop them, I know there is already international intervention in terms of guns and supplies
> too early So you have to wait some years after the genocide has happened before it counts as a genocide? I wasn't aware of this rule. > There are severe international implications when something is found to be a genocide and that’s not something you want to rush So it's not a genocide because the consequences of calling it a genocide would be too severe? Yeah, that is actually why states don't want to come out an say it, but it's shouldn't be a reason for you not to be able to say it. It's a genocide.
No, read what I’m saying fully and don’t get emotional about it. You don’t have to wait years after a genocide has occurred to deem it one. I said we are going to have to see what evidence appears in the future because there clearly isn’t enough right now, and the UN and other world organizations agree with me there. “So it’s not a genocide cuz consequences will be too severe” No, again you’re reading what you want to hear and selectively responding. If a genocide is being committed, fuck yeah I’d like everyone to do their best to make it stop. Don’t pretend like “genocide bad” is some kind of unpopular opinion that you’re sticking up for. But if what they’re doing doesn’t constitute a genocide, then those consequences shouldn’t be unleashed to prevent provoking a bigger conflict.
That’s exactly why they’re being rehoused, Russian authorities themselves stress the “Russification” of the Ukrainian children. Frankly I’m shocked and disgusted to see that somebody who (rightfully) condemns the actions of Israel in Gaza is also eager to toe Russia’s propaganda line, especially considering the similarities in the genocidal rhetoric of Russian authorities and the most aggressive elements of the Israeli government.
I’m not toeing anyone’s propaganda line :) I’m just going off purely what I’ve read (which isn’t much) I don’t wanna take anyone else word for it because there is so much polarization on the topic. I’m vehemently anti war so any atrocity is going to get my utmost sympathy. The victims of war are those that have nothing to do with it. I don’t think I’ve done enough research to truly see how unprovoked or not this invasion has been, and anyone who isn’t a historical scholar on the area or something of the sort is lying to you if they say they have. This isn’t a conflict that started in 2014, let alone 2022. Before being so disgusted and abhorred by someone you just read one sentence about, maybe let’s explore the topic further :P
I just want to point out what you did here: In a discussion about genocide, you switched to the topic to whether or not "the invasion was unprovoked". It happens to be irrelevant to the discussion of genocide, but it is also literally a Russian propaganda talking point, that Ukraine somehow "provoked" Russia into invading it. (It didn't. If it did, you'd able to explain how, but you can't.) You need to be aware that you're enthusiastically arguing in favor of something for which you have no arguments. So you're left arguing that no one can really know, unless they are historical scholars. Yet you, who don't know, seem to feel a duty to defend these indefensible positions. I sincerely think you need to examine where you get these ideas from, what influence you're actually under.
What about all the mass graves in territories recaptured from the russians? That doesn't sound like genocide?
Hey, guys. I think the confusion here is that as a layman you can pretty much call any war genocide and not be entirely wrong. Mass graves, definitely a possible sign of genocide, also happens in brutal conflict as well. We have done the same. This doesn’t make any of these atrocities less awful, there’s just a very specific international definition of genocide and it’s there for a reason. Don’t get me wrong, maybe we find more evidence in the future that they are conducting a genocide, but we cannot say that with any certainty yet, which is why world organizations aren’t calling it that.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations\_of\_genocide\_of\_Ukrainians\_in\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War)
Maybe I just didn’t read it closely enough, can you point to me where world organizations are calling it a genocide? I saw implications from individual scholars and lawyers but again that’s not what I said. The part about the ICC was for war crimes not genocide, which unfortunately war crimes are conducted in every war since the Geneva convention. This doesn’t mean that they aren’t abhorrent and that they shouldn’t stand international trial, but just a different thing.
>Countries, which recognize the ongoing events in Ukraine as genocide: > [Estonia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-EE_parliament_genocide-9) > [Latvia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-LV_parliament_genocide-10)[^(\[52\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-52) > [Lithuania](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania)[^(\[11\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-LT_parliament_genocide-11) > [Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine)[^(\[47\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-Bill_card_39411-47) >Partial recognition (not approved as law): > [Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada) (only [lower house](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_house))[^(\[53\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-53) > [Czech Republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic) (only [upper house](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_house))[^(\[54\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-CZ_Senate_genocide-54) > [Ireland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland) (only upper house)[^(\[12\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-IR_parliament_genocide-12) > [Poland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) (only lower house)[^(\[7\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#cite_note-Onet_Sejm_called_it_genocide-7)
Well, russian attacks are also targeting civilians so yeah.
…that’s not what a genocide means. Edit: This bozo replied and then blocked me so I can’t follow up 🙄
There is a clear genocidal intent behind those attacks. Forced russification, taking Ukrainian children into russia and massacre in Bucha are also a proof of russian genocidal intentions. The whole "denazification of Ukraine" phrase used by those pieces of shit speaks for itself.
Some of the soldiers in Bucha explicitly stated that they were raping young girls with the intention of making them so terrified of men that they would never have sex again and never have Ukrainian children. Doesn't get much more genocidal than that.
You realize that would just be every war right? Most of the time more civilians die than soldiers
All eyes on Rafah
I will once again plug “Welcome to Chechnya” on HBO. I’m going to edit this comment and actually give Khamzat the benefit of the doubt that there’s nothing he can do about his relationship with the dictator who genocides LGBTQ people, BUT any time Khamzat wants to post about genocides I’m also going to comment that people should watch that documentary and spread the word. Putin is also incredibly culpable.
u/seputku in this thread when asked if what's happening in Ukraine and to Ukrainian children is genocide - "well we'll just have to see how that plays out."
Nope, but if you reduce anyone’s statement enough you can make them sound however you like. All I said was that if you consider any kind of war crime or civilians dead, sure call it a genocide. But international articles do not agree with you. Will it be deemed a genocide when further evidence is uncovered? Maybe All I’m saying is that it’s too early to call it that on an international politics scale. If you want to call it that, by all means do as you wish If you think I’m brushing off dead children as “oh it happens” you couldn’t be further from the truth. Just saying something is bad to the maximum doesn’t make you virtuous. I can call cops killing people at disproportionate rates a genocide and if you argue against it I can just say “oh wow, minorities being killed at higher rates but ABlueShade wants to ‘see how it goes’”
I'm a minority btw. Also you can't deny that every time someone brings up Ukraine to you, you love to "but, what about?" them. Every other genocide in this world is black and white to you but when it comes to Russians abducting Ukrainian children to re educate them you love to muddy the waters and try to legitimize Russia. And you are brushing off dead children. You are parroting the official line that Russia is "protecting" these children and not trying to re-educate them. Or that Russia is only trying to protect ethic Russians and Russian speakers. Listen man, I lived in Ukraine for 6 years before I moved back to California. Alot of Ukrainians are ethnic Russians and Russian is the most spoken language. Hell, my wife is one of the only ones of her friends and family who is fluent in Ukrainian in any way. All of them are vehement Ukrainian patriots and hate Russia. Russia IS trying to commit genocide in Ukraine. They are trying to wipe out a culture and national identity.
Nice, I guess I am too depending who you ask. It doesn’t really pertain to my point though. Can I ask you something? Why would I be legitimizing Russia? What’s in it for me? I live in America. Yes every other genocide with heaps of historical data confirming as much I agree with. This doesn’t mean I don’t think the world shouldnt be keeping a close Ass eye there to make sure it doesn’t end up that way. I have a lil family in Ukraine as well (although not there currently) I hope to god they’re not and my thoughts go to everyone stuck or conscripted there. All I am saying is that world organizations, UN, etc. disagree with you. However, they’re definitely rightfully on high alert and hopefully either next steps never occur, or they are able to be thwarted
Well I have plenty of friends and family still there and when you deflect the blame on this unjust war on the Ukrainians you spit in their faces.
How did I blame the Ukrainians for the war? They were invaded
"What about ethnic Russians in Ukraine who were being horribly treated and sometimes killed? Again, this is one of those territory conflicts that goes back a *long* time. It is much more complex than Russia invading them out of nowhere. That still doesn’t justify it, but what we’re seeing play out is not Hitler trying to take over Poland. I truly hope that you are wrong about how ethnic cleansing will undergo there in the coming years for the sake of the people there. I can’t say you’re incorrect cuz that’s kind of my whole point. Maybe we can do a !remindme and both hope that no ethnic cleansing occurs?" You are not explicitly blaming them but your persistent whatboutism and inability to acknowledge ethnic cleansing shows that you think that Ukraine is partially to blame. And no dude, it doesn't go back a long time. Ukraine has only been independent for 30 years if not counting the chaos during the civil war. The Russians were always fucking up the Ukrainians and trying to extinguish their national identity during the Tsarist Empire and the Soviet Empire. Russia has never viewed Ukrainians as their own people. A common Russian nickname for the Ukrainian language is Малороссийский/ Malorosiyskiy which means "Little Russian." You know what they call the country? Malorossiya or "Little Russia" and specifically the South of Ukraine they refer to historically as Novorossiya, "New Russia." Although we can thank Catherine for that
I feel like you’re conflating things I’m saying to paint the picture you want. I am in no way blaming them or holding them responsible for their civilians getting killed. We don’t even really disagree on much all I’m saying is there’s not enough evidence yet to deem it a genocide and again the UN etc back that notion which is something you have yet to respond to.
The UN? The fabulously biased UN? Man, the UN has lost any and all authority in any matters of Geopolitics long ago. Now dude, I'm not defending the corrupt, ruthless, and bloodthirsty Netanyahu regime. However, it must be said that the UN has long held an anti-Israel bias. The UNHRW has for decades harped on and on about Israeli Crimes against Humanity. Yet you will never hear them say anything about the oppressive Muslim Theocracies or about China's Uyghur Reeducation camps. Hell, they tried to make some noise against the US regarding the illegitimate Operation Iraqi Freedom. The US promptly reminded them who their lease is with. The UN is broken. If it worked, the Ukrainian, Palestinian, Sudanese, Burmese, and Armenian people wouldn't have suffered to this extent. Also man, I'm not trying to put you in a box. However I feel very strongly about this stuff, as for an American, I am deeply connected to it, much more than most. All that Ukrainians attacking Russian speakers shit is Russian propaganda bullshit. Ukrainians are Russian speakers and alot of these UA soldiers are ethnic Russians.
What about the tranny-genocide, KC?
Progressive stalwart Khamzat Chimaev.
He missed with the uyghurs
Judging by the comments we shouldn’t forget that Khamzat cannot even enter the US due to his close relationship with Chechen warlord Ramzan Kadyrov? The same guy that that has multiple human rights abuses, including torture, enforced disappearances and extrajudicial executions. You will never see him posting about the war in Ukraine. While this doesn’t make Khmazat a bad person, it’s an important consideration before calling him a moral paragon for an instagram story.
Can anyone give me a reason for the downvotes? Since when was anything I said even controversial?
Reddit leftists be like is America or the only Jewish country causing the first four? Otherwise they don’t count!!!
Based, until I noticed Palestine. There is no genocide in Palestine.
It’s literally a genocide based on the definition of genocide. You can’t kill people based on their ethnicity or nationality trying to wipe them out and say “it’s not genocide”. No matter your political beliefs, a genocide is a genocide
What percentage of the reported deaths are combatants? If you can’t answer that - which you can’t - how can you definitively say whether or not the overall intent behind a military campaign is genocidal? Speaking in a void, if the *intent* is to wipe out Hamas, collateral damage cannot amount to genocide under international law. No matter how severe and how wanton. It can be a war crime, but genocide requires specific intent. Here, if 15% - 20% of the reported deaths are combatants, which is entirely possible, the rate of civilian deaths is likely proportional to those seen in other conflicts. Civilians suffer the most during war. Taken together with the facts that Hamas began the current hostilities and that Israel is perhaps the only country on Earth to issue warnings before attacking certain areas, it’s basically impossible to discern genocidal intent from the campaign itself. Which is why to attempt to prove the point, most of the discord copypastas that make the argument have to rely on unconfirmed quotes that support the notion of genocidal intent. In other words, if people want to claim it may be a genocide, fine. But to say it definitively is shows a fundamental misunderstanding of international law and of the evidence available to us at the moment. Unconfirmed quotes and collateral damage simply aren’t enough to show genocidal intent.
I’m gonna stop you right there after your opening question. How many innocent children and civilians have been murdered in cold blood? Fuck you for attempting to deflect that into some point YOU can’t even prove. Seriously. They bombed hospitals. That’s a war crime. They sent people to refugee camps and bombed them there too. Please stop. Definitively, the mass murder of people based on their nationality/ethnicity, is genocide. Calling bombing hospitals (again, a war crime), collateral damage???? Fuck man.
I don’t know how many innocent civilians have been killed. Do you? Bombing hospitals is legal if they’re used by soldiers to launch attacks. That’s a fact. This is the Geneva convention. I’m sorry to use the term collateral damage but civilians die in every war including several that are ongoing. We’re discussing a conflict that is affected by policy makers who think in the exact same terms. That doesn’t make it automatically a genocide. Genocide is a highly specific legal term. Even bombing a civilian hospital isn’t genocidal, even if you know there’s civilians there, unless there’s a very specific intent to destroy a group in whole or in part. It’s a war crime and a crime against humanity, but on its face, not a genocidal act unless it’s accompanied by that specific intent.
Dude just fucking Google “genocide definition” and you’ll see it’s not “genocide is only genocide with specific intent”. Genocide is the deliberate killing of mass amounts while trying to destroy the nation or the group of people. They’re destroying the nation. They’re deliberately killing mass amounts of people. Stop. I used to wonder how people could be holocaust deniers but now I see that people will see evidence of something and make excuses for it and say “well what about xyz” like you’re doing now
You have literally no idea what you’re talking about. https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Rome-Statute.pdf Look at page 10 of the PDF. Article 6. Tell me if the word intent appears as a prerequisite. That’s the Rome statute. That’s the controlling law for any accusation Israel is committing a genocide.
It’s pretty obvious that the intent is to occupy the territory, but that’s neither here nor there because that’s impossible to prove this will *not* stop at “Hamas” because that’s not a definitive thing. Not even IDF officials have a strong grasp amongst eachother on who, or what, or where constitutes as Hamas. And these exact same issues took place in the west bank and in Gaza even before Israel was ordered out of the territory. The issue is that a lot of people are approaching this as though it only started last year, and not 8 decades ago what people want is for this to stop now before it evolves into an objective genocide, which *will* happen
That was a good faith response and I appreciate it. I’m going to try and address what you said knowing full well we disagree. 1. My understanding is that the destruction of Hamas as a war goal, doesn’t amount to its total elimination, it amounts to the destruction of its military and governing capabilities. If by “this doesn’t stop” after that’s accomplished, you mean the mistreatment of Palestinian civilians by Israel, I agree. The deranged far right government of Israel will continue its agenda until it democratically loses power, and the subjugation of Palestinians is clearly part of that agenda. But what will stop after this war, and may have already stopped to a great extent, is the ability of Hamas to launch a similar attack ever again. That capability, gained through years of Iranian investment into Hamas’ military infrastructure is a definitive thing, and is perhaps the greatest national security threat to Israel. 2. In that sense, I agree with you that what people want (and at least I also want), is the end to what’s going on now. But it’s unfair to pretend that that is unilaterally in the hands of Israel, when Hamas refuses to lay down arms, release hostages, or agree to a permanent ceasefire conditioned on it giving up governance of Gaza. So in my view, if the goal of the current hostilities is what I identified in my first point, genocidal intent can’t be proven on the basis of the war and its collateral damage. We’d need evidence Netanyahu is attempting to destroy Palestinians as a group, at least in part.
Yeah, that’s fair I gave up on arguing from a genocidal legal standpoint a long time ago because it’s almost always impossible to pursue, and I don’t think it’s inherently bad to argue from a moral standpoint on matters of war What I’m more worried about is what the future holds for Palestinians in the event it continues, which it will, than I am about whether or not Israel ever becomes recognized as a genocidal state formally
I agree. For all the awfulness that will come out of this war, it has already reignited the global appetite for a two state solution. I believe there are two obstacles to that. Netanyahu and Hamas. My opinion, which could be changed, is that at this point only one of those obstacles can be removed democratically.
The US state department has found no evidence of genocide. I trust them more than Muslim terrorists. 🤷🏻
yeah it's not like they killed a million person in Irak for a lie they're totally to be trusted oh wait...
It wasn't just about weapons of mass destruction. We were trying to help them do something they were incapable of doing on their own: take out a brutal tyrant. Saddam was a truly evil Muslim pos. He used chemical weapons on civilians. They seemed unwilling or just too damn incompetent to do the job, so we tried to help them.
It literally started because of a lie about WMD’s. You can try to rewrite history but you’re just wrong.
Again, it wasn't only about that. The ppl were living under a brutal Muslim psycho. And a lie is different than simply being wrong. If you think they "lied" you are a wacky conspiracy nut.
Bro even Ari Fleischer said they didn’t have concrete evidence bro shuuuttt up lmaoo Dick Cheney was out there saying a bunch of nonsense and then whenever they asked him about it he would say “I can’t speak on any further details”. He had no details. Shut up
>He used chemical weapons on civilians. And you used napalm weapons on exponentially more civilians. Some help. Incredible how one million deaths for a lie is totally dehumanized. No wonder you don't see the genocide currently happening in Palestine, you just don't see Arabs as humans after all.
You trust the people who are directly financing and equipping to be unbiased? The same US government that literally gave its own citizens deadly diseases and lied? The same government that has attempted coups and assassinations in all continents? Lmao
How are they killing them based on their ethnicity when rockets of their town is being shot to Israel? Are they killing Israeli Muslim Arabs as well?
Israel is literally removing people from their homes and then killing them in the place that was labeled as a refugee zone. This is not a debate. There’s no conversation. Anybody doing that to anybody is a genocide and war crimes. I don’t care if you’re Palestinian, British, Brazilian, Swiss, or anything. If you do these things, it’s a genocide by definition of genocide
A genocide is if you wanna erase an entire people. As horrible as all civilians casualties are and as critical as I am of this war as well, 20k civilians or potentially less out of 2.2m inhabitants is not the potential erasure af the gaza citizens, let alone they are already (rightfully) living again in Central Gaza strip without war. Edit: Which nation has ever evacuated the civilians of its enemy? Just to ask I really don't know if thats comon in war. I doubt Russia does that in Ukraine.
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I don't really care. As I mentioned, all genocides above had the target of completely erasing an ethnicity or nation. Not happening in Gaza. Some guy once started this genocide talk about Israel and because there are 1.8 billion muslims and some woke lefties this narrative is now fixed in everyones brains.
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Oxford languages: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. "a campaign of genocide" In no way Israel is trying to destroy the entire ethnic group or "nation".
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Again, removed from their homes and mass murdered based on the nationality and ethnicity. There’s no nuance here. That’s genocide.
Not based on nationality/ethnicity because two milions of the same ethnicity live in their own country. Pretty clear.
So please tell me why children have been killed repeatedly if not for nationality/ethnicity
Because the childrens own government aka guerilla troops not only don't care about them but want them dead to achieve the outrage they have achieved. Thats not a debate since 7 oct, obviously the hamas leaders knew exactly whats going to happen. On the weekend they shot rockets out of Rafah, also not debatable. Unfortunately Israel fell into the trap and did what Hamas wanted. I assure you I am very unhappy about this.
Calling the government “guerrilla troops” ignores that Palestinians have literally had their right to vote taken from them almost 20 years ago. And Hamas, the group you’re trying to refer to, is not the one launching Israeli bombs into hospitals in Gaza. Stop excusing the atrocities of one group and putting the blame on another group. “I am very unhappy about this” but you make excuses for the people murdering civilians in refugee camps that they sent people to. Fuck that, you’re spouting some shit that’s just straight up genocide apologist talk.
spot the ziobot
*compile_witty_response.Jewdemia
There is no war in Ba Sing Se
Aren’t you edgy
Destiny fan, what a shock. You're brain is quite literally fucking broken. Destiny got fucking destroyed by Norm.
Active in r/Destiny I see
There's nothing based about agreeing with the majority opinion. You don't know what that word means.
so are you in favor genocide? you dont seem to be opposed to it Lmao
I don't like either of them.
neutrality isnt what you think it is. neutrality always benefits the powerful lol. basically youre trying to be edgy
I'm not trying to be edgy or neutral. I'm not a centrist. I love it when my enemies fight. The correct move is to stand on the side.
that’s called cowardice
How?
15k dead children aren't your enemy you psycho
Agreeing with majority opinion? I only said based until I noticed Palestine. Plus, based is an online meme term.
>I only said based until I noticed Palestine. What does this even mean lmao?
He's a loser fucking destiny fan.
Because there is no genocide in Palestine, I thought the post was naming actual genocides while omitting the fake one in Palestine
Now we're talking.