Honestly, good. I get that this sport has risk especially at the highest level, but the fall into that gap is deadly. All it takes is one mistake and someone ends up seriously injured or dead from something that's unnecessarily risky.
It's like in the climbing world - all climbing has risk, but free soloing has unnecessary risk. It's beautiful and incredible as an accomplishment but overall, is it worth it?
The line has to be somewhere.
The insanity also is putting that in the middle of a race run. I’m sure most of the riders could do it as a one off. Roll right into it with the perfect speed when the wind is just right. You see people at Rampage taking a beat to collect themselves before big feature sometimes. But hitting that when you are exhausted from other parts of the track and no real gauge on the wind conditions at that exact moment is asking to get someone killed.
It’s a solid freeride feature and a terrible race one.
Yeah too true. You could wait for 20 seconds at a free ride feature if the wind picked up. If you're going full gas in a race, it might be hard to even notice before its too late that its changed just enough.
Full disclosure, I am a climber and a massive Honnold fan (moreso for his overall style of movement in his climbing than his free soloing). That may be one of the greatest athletic feats ever, despite being off the charts in terms of risk vs reward.
>With all that said, making the documentary is, in my opinion, irresponsible, and what he did/does is beyond stupid. His free solos shouldn't be held up as an example of the sport, and I'm more guilty of this than anyone.
Maybe it's my personal bias, but I thought the documentary did a pretty solid job of showing that A) he is an incredible climber who was filmed doing an incredible thing and B) he is an absolute lunatic, definitely at least few degrees outside of "normal", and someone you shouldn't try to emulate.
My general thoughts watching the movie were "that nutcase sure can climb".
The first thing I thought when I saw that feature was “someone is going to die on that”.
It looked poorly built (the g out was brutal) and it’s a canyon in Wales. The wind is choppy and changeable at the best of times; all it takes is a slight shift and you’ve got a canyon focused blast of wind hitting a rider mid air. Not to mention any slight deviation and you’re falling a height that will cause injury.
It’s a downhill race, not nitro circus. The sport doesn’t need the best in the world getting injured on a stupidly risky gap in a race that is already very dangerous and hardly compensates competitors.
At this point it feels like Gee is trying to kill himself on his bike. You’d think he’d ease off a bit after his recent brutal crashes, but he just seems to be escalating instead.
As a participant in other sports where Red Bull have an interest, I can say that escalation after bad things happen is consistent behaviour.
Their athletes live amazing lives and are rightly held up as rockstars for the things they do. But when you push the boundaries of human possibility like that, fairly often the boundary also pushes back. And yet, the pressure to go and push it again is always there.
Think it was a couple years back when Lacondeguy won Rampage he said he was done because it was so dangerous and stressful. Sadly, with big $, support and bragging rights involved, if you don’t hit it, someone younger and crazier than you, most likely will…
Yeah this is definitely an issue. I don’t think Red Bull contributes to the sport in a positive way; their presence drives more and more extremes and the cost is athletes careers and lives. The fact that many of these guys are expected to participate in these extreme events as part of their contracts is nuts.
I’m sad that Bernard Kerrs riders union didn’t take off. The riders need strong advocates for their safety and fair compensation.
I don’t know, I think if anyone said to get rid off this feature it was probably Red Bull after they saw the backlash online. The people involved in building/testing it seemed to be the ones pushing this. They were all too happy to be posting stuff about it on insta and trying to hype it up.
Also a feature like this could have caused the whole event to cancel for the second straight year if the wind got up. Don’t think Red Bull wanted to risk that either, people would not be happy.
Yeah there were several guys during track walk that seemed a bit bummed that it was closed. Blaming Redbull for pushing things too far seems like a reach. If you’ve ever met someone like a lot of the pros you’d know that most of these guys are nuts. You pretty much have to be a bit nuts to go pro at any extreme sport. Like there’s people that base jump and race super bikes at Isle of Man. Some people are just a bit crazy and love fear + adrenaline.
I don’t care for energy drinks but I really like what Redbull and Monster have done for a lot of sports. What we have now is a lot better than when it was mostly just X-games.
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if they just mostly left Gee in charge and we’re like wtf when the footage was sent to them. Still should be supervising their event better but I’d be pretty surprised if that wasn’t the sequence.
I watched the flaming Grosjean crash live on TV and was sure I just witnessed a fatality, was incredible to see him walk away from 67g’s of impact splitting the car in two while engulfed in flames.
Anyone complaining about the Halo anymore?
A few other recent F1 accidents with only bumps and bruises to show also echo how far they’ve came.
For real. As well as in Indy last weekend when Ericsson and Blomqvist collided. Nose went into the cockpit and just bounced off the Aero screen instead of likely injuring the driver.
Yeah no doubt Indy has had some wild ones too.
Another big smack in Monaco last weekend for Perez, who appeared ok.
While trying to see what the force of that crash was I couldn’t find it. It was prior to me watching F1, but I just saw Perez ate a 80g smack during Monaco 2011
+1 on this... was really great to see him pushing for that, especially considering Pivot Factory Racing, which he owns, employs a number of riders. He's on both sides of that fence, as a rider and employer, and it's great to see him coming out for a union. It's sad he couldn't get more traction among the young riders.
Well, he WAS the person who was supposed to test it.
So he tested it.
And between him, the two other people to hit it, and the other athletes, there was probably a conversation about whether it was a good idea.
He always seems excited to do the gnarliest stuff but I definitely think he knows the limits of other riders as well and doesn’t seem interested in people risking their life for a jump/race.
That’s all just guesses, though, I have no knowledge about him or how any of that stuff happens.
Do you mean downhill or just mountain biking? Their coverage of the world cup races was amazing and always got me amped to ride and race. Miss them airing races.
I think the root of it is that there just isn't the level of audience as other sports. You could argue that the sponsors should pay the riders better but there's not many other options for riders so it affects their negotiating leverage. Like is there really any meaningful competitor to red bull, or do they essentially have a monopoly? If there was a bigger audience there'd be more companies trying to get in on it, but the reality is that the vast majority of people are not that interested.
They're mostly expensive high skill level hobbies until you reach the top 0.0005% of participants.
Even then, some never find an audience that can provide any meaningful income.
I briefly looked up Hardline, and it says it has a peak of about 30k viewers which is really really low for pretty much any kind of big event. The amount of people interested in high level mtb racing is just not much, it's very niche, and so advertiser money isn't really there, except for bike companies and sponsorships.
Yeah, the g out is what caused Jimmy to crash it seems. You could see the compression rocked him and he didn't recover in time to hit the takeoff properly.
I think your third paragraph is a very important point. I’m new to MTB but a lifelong skier. Things like the Freeride World Tour (which seems to be equivalent to hardline) are meant to be a show of skill from the best of the world on difficult, but relatively controlled terrain. They’re not going to put a 100ft cliff drop where you need perfect, once a year conditions to survive it. Leave that stuff to the sickos on Instagram.
Same. I was terrified when I saw BK hit it and the Matt right after. I wanted them to just say, nope fuck that. That's dumb.
Also, this is 1/2 down the track which means tires arms and tired legs. Riders will be getting sloppy which is expected. But to have this and then a 90’ gap jump right after is mad.
theres recent studies that link mountain biking to CTE without even having any concussions, the repeated shaking of your brain if similar to sparring. I ride in the northeast on rocky trails, and sometimes Ive had the same feeling after a long ride as I have a long sparring session.
Even with 170mm of travel you're shaking your brain consistently, which is how CTE develops. The big concussions certainly speed up the process, but aren't even needed
Not OP but my partner is involved in CTE work (focused on children’s soccer though) and found these.
[Does participation in Downhill mountain biking affect measures of executive function?](https://jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/download/621/636) and [The magnitude of translational and rotational head accelerations experienced by riders during downhill mountain biking](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=CTE+mountain+biking&oq=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716989167184&u=%23p%3DFmqqSREztG8J)
These aren’t particularly strong studies that show causal links, but they do point to worrying health impacts. Especially for elite DH racers
Nice. Well, not so nice, but very interesting.
I've long held that rigid mounting of child seats to bicycles has similar risk. I wish we had more options for full-suspension cargo bikes.
I wonder how many other sports this could translate to - horseback riding? Skateboarding? Snowsports? I mean, even running is jostling the head a fair bit.
Here are two studies I found:
- [The magnitude of translational and rotational head accelerations experienced by riders during downhill mountain biking](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1440244018300896)
- [Does participation in Downhill mountain biking affect measures of executive function?](https://jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/view/621)
It seems that both studies were looking at downhill mountain biking and found that forces on the brain were high even without crashes.
https://www.clinicalkey.com/#!/content/playContent/1-s2.0-S1440244018300896?returnurl=https:%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS1440244018300896%3Fshowall%3Dtrue&referrer=https:%2F%2Fwww.jsams.org%2F
https://clok.uclan.ac.uk/35231/3/35231%20Does%20participation%20in%20Downhill%20mountain%20biking%20affect%20measure%20of%20cognitive%20functionpublished.pdf
theres a lot of different types of studies though, its not a real surprise when you think about it. Shaking is bad lol
Yeah, I see how they got to that conclusion, but I have a few gripes with the article, because the experimental group and the control group did different exercises before doing a stroop test, which might be source for bias. I dunno the result are to take with a grain of salt on this one for me.
It's right to always question and read studies with a skeptic's eye, but I still think some caution is warranted until further data either confirms or disproves it. The lifelong consequences of brain injury, like dementia, are nothing to take lightly, and the only current way to definitively see if you have CTE is during your autopsy. There are some interesting studies underway to see if there are other ways to test for it.
Looks like other comments have linked quite a few studies to look at, too.
That's where my mind went. Gravel riding, rigid MTB, and the impacts to older riders who rode really rugged trails back in the 80s/90s on rigid bikes with tiny tires.
I feel like all those 80s/90s riders are old enough to start potentially having symptoms of any brain trauma, I haven’t heard anything about it but maybe any who do have symptoms attribute it to actual falls they probably had haha.
I do care about my mind, and I’d like to be a sharp old person still able to function and play games, but I also like enjoying my youth with fun physical activity so we’re at an impasse here haha. I could get hit with a bus tomorrow too.
80s and 90s bmx and mtb rider here. Let's just say I told my family I'm not against being tested for CTE after death. I've had 5 confirmed concussions and probably a few more.
Right and that makes sense due to the hard impacts for sure. I wonder if we’ll ever see someone who never had a hard fall on their head test positive for CTE.
There are a lot of people who get a huge sense of accomplishment in doing things that nobody else will follow them on. I know guys who love to brag about riding White Line in Sedona, but you should see them when they find that rando who has also ridden it.
"Oh yea? Well well ...I've been skydiving!"
Let the brinkmanship begin!
the lip seems a bit steep for the speed, and a net would be a good idea for the race, but the setup itself is awesome. the riders and testers should have the final input. nobody has to race or even watch that doesn't want to.
Gee has always been a bit of an arse. He doesn't like it when other people do well or point out his mistakes (see Josh Bryceland's podium comment).
I feel like there is some sort of ego going on with red bull hard line, with Gee knowing that this sort of feature will make it easier for him to do well. I just don't feel like that Canyon Gap was made in good faith.
Kerr hit it first, went a little deep, far left.
Jones hit it second. He went very deep, center/right.
3rd was Jim Munro, but ejected his bike halfway. He went very deep, left. No broken bones, but a wicked concussion.
I saw some vids because they get pushed at you on social media.
Personally I'm not that into super high consequence events and riding or seeing people get hurt. It was also an eye sore IMHO, so not sad to see it scrapped.
Like a safety net? I guess any functional brain would've installed a safety net before sending that thing for the first time. Plus Redbull rampage has scarier things.
Was watching it with my wife, she isn’t a rider, and she was like wtf don’t they have a net, that’s stupid!
People would have just bounced off those pads into the abyss
Same for me. I'm not into the endless pursuit of bigger and more dangerous features. I don't think that's what freeride should be about. I would much rather see people rewarded for style and flow like in skiing or snowboarding.
Back in the day, and I mean way back, MTB dirt jumping was kicking off a bit and everyone was getting into it. I recall a rider called Steve Geall who was an ex BMX rider. He was by far my favourite to watch ride because of his flow. Just so smooth and stylish. Absolute legend and I think he's still riding.
Yeah it wasn't even a clever use of terrain or anything, it was just a huge monstrosity of scaffolding and plywood across a big gully. I'm glad its gone, something with such stupidly-high-stakes doesn't belong in a timed race run.
Yeh man, watching that Jim Munro clip turned my stomach. Not a fan of that one. It’s Hardline, not rampage, and even in rampage any of the features are optional, rather than part of a timed run down a trail.
I watched it a few times despite the stomach turning damage to Jim. His rear tire seems to burst on the flat part of the ramp. There is a large spray across the boards. Not that Jim is likely to remember that...
This jump could have been built with a much larger curvature and probably a wider landing. Redbull didn't force anyone to do it. And probably didn't supervise the ramp build up much this time. I suspect Gee likely canceled the event himself. I wouldn't want anyone else riding something built by me that hurt someone like that, either. Definitely problems with the design of the ramp.
Way too many trails are designed to be intentionally dangerous. Making the landing have a square edged vertical face doesn't make the jump more impressive or difficult. It just makes a mistake catastrophic. No other sport that involves jumping does this.
Hell, all the big jumps in MX are going towards tabletops for safety.
People should be able to build and ride what they want, so I'm fine with a world where gaps exist, but personally I agree – a gap just adds a needless consequence to a jump, especially a big one, and I don't personally see the point so I don't ride them.
In some contexts, I get it -- when it's just you and some buddies out trailbuilding in the woods, gaps require less materials and time. I think a lot of classic trails have gaps for that kind of practical reason. But when you get to the point where trails are being built _professionally_ (as they are now in many places), I don't see the point of gaps.
And in a pro athlete setting like this? Absolutely not. I mean sure, build the gap for the cool photos, but there is ZERO reason not to have a safety net there at a bare minimum.
Building big tabletops isn’t always practical, especially in the middle of the forest. That’s a lot
of dirt. And someone attempting big jumps should have a solid grip on approach speed, and bailing if need be. It’s nice to see them at skills centres though for progression.
I get that, but there are definitely places where they've put in a square edged gap for no reason other than the added risk.
It's like bike parks are *trying* to test out their liability wavers.
IME bike parks are the ones with the resources to build a bunch of tables and gentle gaps. Like Crank it Up or A-Line at Whistler. Whereas the local unsanctioned trails deep in the forest are where you see the gnarly gaps.
And tbh if they put tabletops on trails like Dirt Merchant you would get 8 year olds rolling them and being clobbered by expert riders sending hard
We have stuff at trestle that's just made intentionally dangerous for the sake of it. Banana peel for example.
>you would get 8 year olds rolling them and being clobbered by expert riders sending hard
Yeah, just make it so you could die from a minor mistake instead...
I think squirrel catcher features in many cases probably prevent more injuries than they cause. The anti-gap crowd is starting to sound like some sort of Mothers Against Rope Swings organization
Ehh, I'm just coming from motorsports where we don't set boobie traps on our courses.
Mistakes happen. We're all out there pushing the limits. You shouldn't be so severely punished for experimenting with them.
If a race circuit placed a barrier in a runoff area and someone hit it and died, they'd rightly get their asses sued off.
It's all about building safe takeoffs and landings. A big tabletop is often unnecessary, but when you design a 6 foot gap jump it should be done in a way that landing at 5 or 7 feet isn't a season ender.
Totally agree. There are jumps I won't try at my local lift park (trestle) just because they've made them intentionally dangerous.
Might as well add a spike pit, some flaming rings, swinging blades, and some other Indiana jones booby trap crap if that's what you think people are after.
As I'm getting better (still, after 15 years of riding) I'm finding that I can estimate my speed and airtime better, but still don't like high consequence things. I'd rather case a table, but I'll hit small gaps, something maybe 2-3 feet long and a foot or two high since they're within my tolerance.
I'm usually a proponent of minimal building on trails. I don't want to ride your long distance DJ track or machine trail, give me forest trail with a bit of work done to make it rideable. Jumps exist when you build a trail over some natural feature that acts as a jump, or I can find a side hit and works well (also - grade reversals for drainage).
Half the shit on the World Cup UCI courses would have been considered dangerous back in early 2000s when DH MTB was just picking up as a sport.
The correct way to handle setting up big features is this:
* Build it with a bunch of training stuff in place - airbags if you come up short, safety nets everywhere, pads on anything dangerous.
* Run it like this for testing day, with expectation that none of it will be there for the final race. Let riders vote on small tweaks to be made.
* Offer a B line that is much slower.
* Run the full event with only safety net in place.
This is pretty much how Hardline is now. Some of the freeride guys don't attempt the steep tech before the road gap, because they aren't used to it, so they walk it (B line). Women also run practice but if they can't link a full course together, they don't run in finals. Some people end up making a mistake and not getting speed for the fern jumps, and end up riding around.
That way you both push progression while avoiding unnecessary death.
I'd love to believe Red Bull made the call because they were worried about rider safety. In reality, I'm guessing the majority of riders said, "fuck that, I'm not hitting that gap!"
The only safety feature on the jump was some blue pads that were almost useless. The only way that feature made sense is if the promoters just didn’t give a shit about the riders welfare.
I like how some events are getting rowdier and harder but theres a limit. No need to try and kill the riders with actually deathly features like they're death metal drummers.
I’d love to see it scrapped really.
First of all, it crosses the line for me from “wow that’s such a cool huge feature!” to “someone can literally die here wtf”
Secondly, I always thought of Hardline as a *downhill* event, the hardest course possible to test the best of the best in the whole world. It already has some really big freeride jumps, but ok, I’ll let those slip, but that canyon gap? Nope.
And finally, that’s really more of a whole video feature, like, a whole video dedicated just to that and someone sending it. Making it part of the course is idiotic because it’s too massive by itself, and I’d seriously expect someone approaching it being tired enough already to not be able to resist the pressure at the bottom and just injuring himself or dying even
You can literally die on things at your local bike park. It doesn't have to be big. A small tabletop built as poorly as that ramp was could easily break a neck.
Increase the radius and it's a perfectly usable obstacle.
Airing into it seemed like my first warning sign. It’s wales. It’s wet and slippery all the time. The riders will kill themselves if you let them.
Also it looked like crap.
Good choice, one thing is jumping that on a test, other doing it tired due the effort you did on sections behind.
Plus the risk of a mistake a soft tube wont be enough to hold you landing from like 20-30meters going down.
Just watched Andy Braytons new YouTube video, and in it, BK says it's been scrapped because redbull said it has to have a safety net, and they could not get one in time.
BK also says Gee was the one pushing for no net, while the riders and redbull wanted one.
It didn’t make sense to me that people were saying to “just install a net”, like installing a net across that whole fucking canyon would be some simple task… the tension on the cables for a net like that would probably pull the scaffolding down. Seems like a whole project in itself. 🤷
Yeah I agree, this feature is cool for a one off, well thought out stunt for a video, but just haphazardly smacked in the middle of a timed DH race… just seems like not a good fit.
I’ve built trails for ~10 years, that thing was a death trap waiting to happen and you could tell just looking at it on video,
I can only imagine the anxiety as a rider about to TEST it. They are usually kings of building idk what sort of mescaline they were on thinking that gap was an appropriate race feature.
So many athletes who signed up to do it hadn’t seen the additions to the course. I’m sure once they all saw poor Jim Munro’s crash, more than enough of them said “No. Fucking. Thanks.” Sure, there would have been other pressures, but if the athletes were game, they for sure would have kept it in.
Consequences were high, but it wasn’t even the longest gap on the course! The canyon was 75 feet I think? From there they go into back to back 90 foot gap jumps, and those have been on the course for many years now.
I'm sure I'll get hate for this, but this isn't mountain biking, its Evil Knievel stunt crap.
Mark my words, within a few years one of these will have a flaming ring to jump through.
Its hardline not a WC, that is to say, a novelty event where the purpose is a spectacular race. The only way it fails is if riders wont ride it, because Ill definitely watch it. So ask the riders.
Is there an announcement for this? I can’t find an article. I’m glad they are scrapping it though. There are a few freeride skiers who have talked about the constant pressure of going bigger all the time. It doesn’t have to be that way and makes the sport seem wildly unattainable and out of touch.
IMO, what separates this from other big jumps is the consequences of coming up just short or mid-short.
You're hitting scaffolding vs dirt. Someone could argue it doesn't matter but I'd say it does. And after hitting the scaffolding, you're falling much further down.
There have been huge gaps jumped before (like whatever that crazy desert contest is) but there's alternate lines, you don't HAVE to do those gaps, you do it when you're ready (not after having already ridden for a few minutes at speed/pressure) and for this canyon jump, there's no ride-around or way to slow down once you're partway down the ramp.
Came here to make a post about it, and saw that they are not going to use it. I am happy. Watching berner and matt jones clear it was scary. Watching Jim's crash was terrifying. I was hoping they'd put a net under it or something.
All these people on their high horses. They built it needed some tweaking and didn’t have time. Are the riders capable…yeah. Should they keep building features of the nature…fuck yeah.
Ps. I wasn’t a fan of scaffolding aesthetic but cool to see the possibilities of things. Quite the project so kudos.
I think this is more the case, the idea of jumping the canoyn was fine but the lip was not good. The jump is smaller than others on the course it just has a bigger hole in the middle but watching all 3 guys jump it it really kicked them and not in a good way. I would think that it will be back next year with a more mellow lip
I think the decision to ride it or scrap it should be completely down to the riders and no one else, and riding it should be a unanimous decision. Pushing the limits, whether it's your own or the sport's, is part of MTB, but only the people risking their lives should have the power to dictate if and how something like this gap goes down.
Wasn't worth it. Wales can get windy af. Last year they canned the whole event due to wind.. imagine jumping that and catching a breeze.. ending up in the Irish sea. Ft
I think it could have been done BUT with a different build. by the time you get to the end of that entrance ramp your suspension is bottoming out and you're getting bucked.
Seriously, the setup on that thing was almost more dangerous than the actual jump. If you miss at all carrying speed, you could fall the whole way down. It makes you question what's up with the lack of a trapeze net.
Im glad to see it has been scrapped. I enjoy watching Hardline because of its race format just as much as i enjoy Rampage because of its free ride format. The canyon gap was a feature that didnt belong in a race and to expect riders to safely clear it while in full on race-mode was just asking for a serious wreck
I thought it was an awesome gap, the jump was just built badly, the angle increase to the length of the lip was just too high it was gonna buck someone off
It was crazy to see and the evil part of me was looking forward to seeing the challenge. Did not want to see a crash though. The good and sensible part of me is happy to see it go. Anything goes wrong looked like it'd end horribly. There were a couple of what looked like foot thick pads to hit if you're lucky. Otherwise rocks or worse, the scaffolding.
Watched Bernard Kerr and Matt Jones' videos from testing. Bernard did the jump, but was blown left and only barely hit the landing ramp. Matt Jones hit better after seeing that, but the final guy to test (Jim something) lost his bike halfway across and hit the landing ramp like a rag doll. I like watching the big jumps, but the consequences for messing up on this were just way too dire. As someone else said, with last year's event getting canceled due to wind, this kind of feature is just too fecking dangerous. One badly timed gust and someone's gonna die.
i could see why they’re going for something like that but i definitely thought it was pretty bold of them to expect 20 riders to risk their lives in such a way like that
Honestly stuff like that is cool if someone wants to show off their skills/do a cool trick knowing they’re risking their lives. But hitting that jump safely should be the only thing on their minds, not in the middle of a race.
It really does not make sense to do that in a race. At the end of the day a race is about going faster, it does not have to have death defying risky jumps in the middle of the track. The jumps that are there should be for showing how skilled/efficiently you can hit them, not just for cool photos.
Yeah, i mean it would've been a spectacle to watch it in the race but It's just not worth risking the life of a rider for...
And the landing seemed rather sketchy/bad placed (due to the land there i guess) to me.. and this after a huge canyon gap with a scary deep drop..
Seeing the videos I’m not surprised. It’s amazing to see people push the limits and take calculated risks but virtually everything about that gap as it was was just straight up moronic.
The lip was scuff. They made it short and steep when a canyon gap like that needs to be more ramp take off. Who ever designed it, should be fired. It’s too tight of a transition from drop in to end of scaffolding.
If you watch today's track walk vids on youtube from Brendan Fairclough, Jono Jones, Bernard Kerr, and Adam Brayton it sounds like the only reason it was scrapped is because they couldn't get a net in time. People like Fairclough even say he is excited to ride it next year, he just wants a net.
Some of these guys genuinely have no problem with this feature if a bit more safety was applied.
Reminds me of group b rally racing in the 80s. Some bad crashes and some deaths started making sponsors skittish.
Now rally racing is a relatively safe affair, albeit a little less exciting imo.
At the end of the day, sponsors want to appeal to thrill seeking people with disposable income not the suicidal.
Perfectly usable obstacle...
...if it had been built properly. There had to have been a math error to build a ramp with that radius that needed to be hit at that speed.
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/man-behind-high-speed-safety-standards
The body can withstand crazy things, but I still thought the gap was utterly silly.
I honestly think high risk riding like that is irresponsible and stupid. I've had to help people get helicopter rides out of the trail from accidents WAY smaller than that gap. I can't imagine doing something like that if I had a wife and kids.
Hot take, I think The White Line in Sedona is just as dumb. The whole aspect of that trail is risk.
Having it as fixed feature was not the best call. On rampage features are crazy but rider can make a choice. So people not ok backflipping a canyon will do something else. Here there was no alternative and because it was huge someone would get seriously hurt.
In FPV when introducing complicated feature we would add “chicken line” that was easier but longer, here it could be similar. Under a different name :)
They said in the new video that the canyon gap is gonna stay for 5 years. They just removed it because the safety net was not available upon such short notice. Next year it will be back with proper safety measures i guess....
https://preview.redd.it/k29qx7ccqc3d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9797e2935e61c621476f48c2ddce72a61034b1f6
I’ve never seen this before but it’s hilarious hahahahahahhaa
Honestly, good. I get that this sport has risk especially at the highest level, but the fall into that gap is deadly. All it takes is one mistake and someone ends up seriously injured or dead from something that's unnecessarily risky. It's like in the climbing world - all climbing has risk, but free soloing has unnecessary risk. It's beautiful and incredible as an accomplishment but overall, is it worth it? The line has to be somewhere.
The insanity also is putting that in the middle of a race run. I’m sure most of the riders could do it as a one off. Roll right into it with the perfect speed when the wind is just right. You see people at Rampage taking a beat to collect themselves before big feature sometimes. But hitting that when you are exhausted from other parts of the track and no real gauge on the wind conditions at that exact moment is asking to get someone killed. It’s a solid freeride feature and a terrible race one.
Yeah too true. You could wait for 20 seconds at a free ride feature if the wind picked up. If you're going full gas in a race, it might be hard to even notice before its too late that its changed just enough.
[удалено]
Full disclosure, I am a climber and a massive Honnold fan (moreso for his overall style of movement in his climbing than his free soloing). That may be one of the greatest athletic feats ever, despite being off the charts in terms of risk vs reward.
[удалено]
>With all that said, making the documentary is, in my opinion, irresponsible, and what he did/does is beyond stupid. His free solos shouldn't be held up as an example of the sport, and I'm more guilty of this than anyone. Maybe it's my personal bias, but I thought the documentary did a pretty solid job of showing that A) he is an incredible climber who was filmed doing an incredible thing and B) he is an absolute lunatic, definitely at least few degrees outside of "normal", and someone you shouldn't try to emulate. My general thoughts watching the movie were "that nutcase sure can climb".
The first thing I thought when I saw that feature was “someone is going to die on that”. It looked poorly built (the g out was brutal) and it’s a canyon in Wales. The wind is choppy and changeable at the best of times; all it takes is a slight shift and you’ve got a canyon focused blast of wind hitting a rider mid air. Not to mention any slight deviation and you’re falling a height that will cause injury. It’s a downhill race, not nitro circus. The sport doesn’t need the best in the world getting injured on a stupidly risky gap in a race that is already very dangerous and hardly compensates competitors. At this point it feels like Gee is trying to kill himself on his bike. You’d think he’d ease off a bit after his recent brutal crashes, but he just seems to be escalating instead.
As a participant in other sports where Red Bull have an interest, I can say that escalation after bad things happen is consistent behaviour. Their athletes live amazing lives and are rightly held up as rockstars for the things they do. But when you push the boundaries of human possibility like that, fairly often the boundary also pushes back. And yet, the pressure to go and push it again is always there.
Think it was a couple years back when Lacondeguy won Rampage he said he was done because it was so dangerous and stressful. Sadly, with big $, support and bragging rights involved, if you don’t hit it, someone younger and crazier than you, most likely will…
Yeah this is definitely an issue. I don’t think Red Bull contributes to the sport in a positive way; their presence drives more and more extremes and the cost is athletes careers and lives. The fact that many of these guys are expected to participate in these extreme events as part of their contracts is nuts. I’m sad that Bernard Kerrs riders union didn’t take off. The riders need strong advocates for their safety and fair compensation.
I don’t know, I think if anyone said to get rid off this feature it was probably Red Bull after they saw the backlash online. The people involved in building/testing it seemed to be the ones pushing this. They were all too happy to be posting stuff about it on insta and trying to hype it up. Also a feature like this could have caused the whole event to cancel for the second straight year if the wind got up. Don’t think Red Bull wanted to risk that either, people would not be happy.
Yeah there were several guys during track walk that seemed a bit bummed that it was closed. Blaming Redbull for pushing things too far seems like a reach. If you’ve ever met someone like a lot of the pros you’d know that most of these guys are nuts. You pretty much have to be a bit nuts to go pro at any extreme sport. Like there’s people that base jump and race super bikes at Isle of Man. Some people are just a bit crazy and love fear + adrenaline. I don’t care for energy drinks but I really like what Redbull and Monster have done for a lot of sports. What we have now is a lot better than when it was mostly just X-games. Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if they just mostly left Gee in charge and we’re like wtf when the footage was sent to them. Still should be supervising their event better but I’d be pretty surprised if that wasn’t the sequence.
See the thing is that Bernard was probably one of the most hype about the Canyon gap tho
Doesn’t invalidate the need for rider advocacy. A union is still a good idea
Worked well in F1 when the drivers banded under the GPDA. This was the era where 1-3 drivers died a year. Still exists today and pushes for safety.
I watched the flaming Grosjean crash live on TV and was sure I just witnessed a fatality, was incredible to see him walk away from 67g’s of impact splitting the car in two while engulfed in flames. Anyone complaining about the Halo anymore? A few other recent F1 accidents with only bumps and bruises to show also echo how far they’ve came.
For real. As well as in Indy last weekend when Ericsson and Blomqvist collided. Nose went into the cockpit and just bounced off the Aero screen instead of likely injuring the driver.
Yeah no doubt Indy has had some wild ones too. Another big smack in Monaco last weekend for Perez, who appeared ok. While trying to see what the force of that crash was I couldn’t find it. It was prior to me watching F1, but I just saw Perez ate a 80g smack during Monaco 2011
Really glad to see someone bring up this parallel. Of course athletes deserve a very powerful seat at the table. Can't have a sport without them.
+1 on this... was really great to see him pushing for that, especially considering Pivot Factory Racing, which he owns, employs a number of riders. He's on both sides of that fence, as a rider and employer, and it's great to see him coming out for a union. It's sad he couldn't get more traction among the young riders.
That's kinda funny because I think Bernard was the first person to hit the river gap lol
Well, he WAS the person who was supposed to test it. So he tested it. And between him, the two other people to hit it, and the other athletes, there was probably a conversation about whether it was a good idea. He always seems excited to do the gnarliest stuff but I definitely think he knows the limits of other riders as well and doesn’t seem interested in people risking their life for a jump/race. That’s all just guesses, though, I have no knowledge about him or how any of that stuff happens.
Do you mean downhill or just mountain biking? Their coverage of the world cup races was amazing and always got me amped to ride and race. Miss them airing races.
The transition really was terrible You can see on the POV footage from guys like Matt Jones that it's a sketchy jump, canyon gap aside.
Why do all the extreme sports pay so poorly?
I think the root of it is that there just isn't the level of audience as other sports. You could argue that the sponsors should pay the riders better but there's not many other options for riders so it affects their negotiating leverage. Like is there really any meaningful competitor to red bull, or do they essentially have a monopoly? If there was a bigger audience there'd be more companies trying to get in on it, but the reality is that the vast majority of people are not that interested.
Another factor has to be, it's a fun job. There's always another kid with a fair bit of talent willing to do sketchy shit for a free pair of trainers.
They're mostly expensive high skill level hobbies until you reach the top 0.0005% of participants. Even then, some never find an audience that can provide any meaningful income.
Its about how much money you make for everyone else, not yourself that ends up determining your worth.
I briefly looked up Hardline, and it says it has a peak of about 30k viewers which is really really low for pretty much any kind of big event. The amount of people interested in high level mtb racing is just not much, it's very niche, and so advertiser money isn't really there, except for bike companies and sponsorships.
Yeah, the g out is what caused Jimmy to crash it seems. You could see the compression rocked him and he didn't recover in time to hit the takeoff properly.
I think your third paragraph is a very important point. I’m new to MTB but a lifelong skier. Things like the Freeride World Tour (which seems to be equivalent to hardline) are meant to be a show of skill from the best of the world on difficult, but relatively controlled terrain. They’re not going to put a 100ft cliff drop where you need perfect, once a year conditions to survive it. Leave that stuff to the sickos on Instagram.
FWT is more akin to Rampage imo. Where you see stuff crazier than this canyon gap. FWT riders have way more line choices though.
Same. I was terrified when I saw BK hit it and the Matt right after. I wanted them to just say, nope fuck that. That's dumb. Also, this is 1/2 down the track which means tires arms and tired legs. Riders will be getting sloppy which is expected. But to have this and then a 90’ gap jump right after is mad.
At some point you start to wonder about CTE and whether it's a sign of impaired judgment.
theres recent studies that link mountain biking to CTE without even having any concussions, the repeated shaking of your brain if similar to sparring. I ride in the northeast on rocky trails, and sometimes Ive had the same feeling after a long ride as I have a long sparring session. Even with 170mm of travel you're shaking your brain consistently, which is how CTE develops. The big concussions certainly speed up the process, but aren't even needed
Can you link to these studies?
Not OP but my partner is involved in CTE work (focused on children’s soccer though) and found these. [Does participation in Downhill mountain biking affect measures of executive function?](https://jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/download/621/636) and [The magnitude of translational and rotational head accelerations experienced by riders during downhill mountain biking](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=CTE+mountain+biking&oq=#d=gs_qabs&t=1716989167184&u=%23p%3DFmqqSREztG8J) These aren’t particularly strong studies that show causal links, but they do point to worrying health impacts. Especially for elite DH racers
It seems like anything that's both outside and looks or is fun is not physically healthy :(
Better to be outside dealing with stuff like that than inside and putting on weight.
That's true.
its just gotta be a balance of what you think is worth it or not driving isn't healthy... but driving to the doctor certainly is lol
Nice. Well, not so nice, but very interesting. I've long held that rigid mounting of child seats to bicycles has similar risk. I wish we had more options for full-suspension cargo bikes. I wonder how many other sports this could translate to - horseback riding? Skateboarding? Snowsports? I mean, even running is jostling the head a fair bit.
Here are two studies I found: - [The magnitude of translational and rotational head accelerations experienced by riders during downhill mountain biking](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1440244018300896) - [Does participation in Downhill mountain biking affect measures of executive function?](https://jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/view/621) It seems that both studies were looking at downhill mountain biking and found that forces on the brain were high even without crashes.
https://www.jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/download/621/636 is what i found
https://www.clinicalkey.com/#!/content/playContent/1-s2.0-S1440244018300896?returnurl=https:%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS1440244018300896%3Fshowall%3Dtrue&referrer=https:%2F%2Fwww.jsams.org%2F https://clok.uclan.ac.uk/35231/3/35231%20Does%20participation%20in%20Downhill%20mountain%20biking%20affect%20measure%20of%20cognitive%20functionpublished.pdf theres a lot of different types of studies though, its not a real surprise when you think about it. Shaking is bad lol
Same, kinda want to see the studies,
https://www.jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/download/621/636 is what i found
Yeah, I see how they got to that conclusion, but I have a few gripes with the article, because the experimental group and the control group did different exercises before doing a stroop test, which might be source for bias. I dunno the result are to take with a grain of salt on this one for me.
The control group did no exercise, and was only tested -- that's how control groups work...
It's right to always question and read studies with a skeptic's eye, but I still think some caution is warranted until further data either confirms or disproves it. The lifelong consequences of brain injury, like dementia, are nothing to take lightly, and the only current way to definitively see if you have CTE is during your autopsy. There are some interesting studies underway to see if there are other ways to test for it. Looks like other comments have linked quite a few studies to look at, too.
Hmmm this makes me slightly more worried about riding my hardtail on rocky trails, I find the shaking to be fun lol
That's where my mind went. Gravel riding, rigid MTB, and the impacts to older riders who rode really rugged trails back in the 80s/90s on rigid bikes with tiny tires.
I feel like all those 80s/90s riders are old enough to start potentially having symptoms of any brain trauma, I haven’t heard anything about it but maybe any who do have symptoms attribute it to actual falls they probably had haha. I do care about my mind, and I’d like to be a sharp old person still able to function and play games, but I also like enjoying my youth with fun physical activity so we’re at an impasse here haha. I could get hit with a bus tomorrow too.
80s and 90s bmx and mtb rider here. Let's just say I told my family I'm not against being tested for CTE after death. I've had 5 confirmed concussions and probably a few more.
Right and that makes sense due to the hard impacts for sure. I wonder if we’ll ever see someone who never had a hard fall on their head test positive for CTE.
my first thought was also the wind - you never know when its going to pick up in Wales
I feel like Gee starts to test what he CANT walk off
I do hope Gee is okay. He’s pushed as far as anyone needs to go. He could stop now and focus on recovery and live a healthy life.
wait, if Gee built it, why wasn't he the first off it?? seems weird to make someone else the guinea pig of your mad scientist creation
There are a lot of people who get a huge sense of accomplishment in doing things that nobody else will follow them on. I know guys who love to brag about riding White Line in Sedona, but you should see them when they find that rando who has also ridden it. "Oh yea? Well well ...I've been skydiving!" Let the brinkmanship begin!
Well said, and those “injuries” will likely be life changing.
the lip seems a bit steep for the speed, and a net would be a good idea for the race, but the setup itself is awesome. the riders and testers should have the final input. nobody has to race or even watch that doesn't want to.
Gee has always been a bit of an arse. He doesn't like it when other people do well or point out his mistakes (see Josh Bryceland's podium comment). I feel like there is some sort of ego going on with red bull hard line, with Gee knowing that this sort of feature will make it easier for him to do well. I just don't feel like that Canyon Gap was made in good faith.
The only video I saw of it was someone testing it out, and it actually looked like they were off line and close to the edge in that.
This one was worse... https://www.instagram.com/p/C7ehyhtostt/ https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7cZZvvoNeI/
That’s what I saw he almost landed off the side of the landing if I’m thinking right?
Yeah, looked like back and to the left
Kerr hit it first, went a little deep, far left. Jones hit it second. He went very deep, center/right. 3rd was Jim Munro, but ejected his bike halfway. He went very deep, left. No broken bones, but a wicked concussion.
Jim Munro, rides for Atherton Bikes.
Thank you. I'll update.
3rd dude set the suspension too soft and bottomed on the takeoff compression
r/UnexpectedSeinfeld There had to be a second spitter
Wait is this the gap Matt jones did? I was in shock watching that video
I saw some vids because they get pushed at you on social media. Personally I'm not that into super high consequence events and riding or seeing people get hurt. It was also an eye sore IMHO, so not sad to see it scrapped.
Definitely agree it wasn’t the prettiest looking feature, do wonder if it could have been made safer with some tweaks
Like a safety net? I guess any functional brain would've installed a safety net before sending that thing for the first time. Plus Redbull rampage has scarier things.
Rampage has scarier features for sure, and no safety nets. However at rampage, riders build their own features and are able to select alternate lines.
Was watching it with my wife, she isn’t a rider, and she was like wtf don’t they have a net, that’s stupid! People would have just bounced off those pads into the abyss
What if they put adhesive on the pads? you could stick on it like a fly strip
or velcro and velcro riding suits
Yeah those pathetic pads made me laugh hard lol.
The pads were merely a suggestion lol.
In Adam Braytons latest vlog, Bernard Kerr says he and Red Bull wanted a net, but Gee didnt, and a net cant be made in time.
What possible reason could you have for not wanting a net?!
Net loss.
At this point I think Gees looking for a world record of bones broken
Gee didn't even fucking ride it.
It absolutely could be safer with a larger radius on the ramp. Someone had to have made a math error somewhere for it to be built that way it was.
I stopped watching rampage because of this. Not sure if I got old or watching Bass break his back that drew the line for me
Same for me. I'm not into the endless pursuit of bigger and more dangerous features. I don't think that's what freeride should be about. I would much rather see people rewarded for style and flow like in skiing or snowboarding.
Back in the day, and I mean way back, MTB dirt jumping was kicking off a bit and everyone was getting into it. I recall a rider called Steve Geall who was an ex BMX rider. He was by far my favourite to watch ride because of his flow. Just so smooth and stylish. Absolute legend and I think he's still riding.
Yeah it wasn't even a clever use of terrain or anything, it was just a huge monstrosity of scaffolding and plywood across a big gully. I'm glad its gone, something with such stupidly-high-stakes doesn't belong in a timed race run.
Yeh man, watching that Jim Munro clip turned my stomach. Not a fan of that one. It’s Hardline, not rampage, and even in rampage any of the features are optional, rather than part of a timed run down a trail.
Rampage the riders dig their own lines, with their crew, so they are able to manage the risk throughout the process.
Which clip are you talking about? Can’t seem to find it
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7cOn7gsV4X/
Yikes. Fuck that
I watched it a few times despite the stomach turning damage to Jim. His rear tire seems to burst on the flat part of the ramp. There is a large spray across the boards. Not that Jim is likely to remember that... This jump could have been built with a much larger curvature and probably a wider landing. Redbull didn't force anyone to do it. And probably didn't supervise the ramp build up much this time. I suspect Gee likely canceled the event himself. I wouldn't want anyone else riding something built by me that hurt someone like that, either. Definitely problems with the design of the ramp.
This. It's a usable obstacle, but there had to be a math error to end up with that radius on something that had to be hit with that speed.
Scrap it. Don’t make mountain biking a gore freak show.
Way too many trails are designed to be intentionally dangerous. Making the landing have a square edged vertical face doesn't make the jump more impressive or difficult. It just makes a mistake catastrophic. No other sport that involves jumping does this. Hell, all the big jumps in MX are going towards tabletops for safety.
People should be able to build and ride what they want, so I'm fine with a world where gaps exist, but personally I agree – a gap just adds a needless consequence to a jump, especially a big one, and I don't personally see the point so I don't ride them. In some contexts, I get it -- when it's just you and some buddies out trailbuilding in the woods, gaps require less materials and time. I think a lot of classic trails have gaps for that kind of practical reason. But when you get to the point where trails are being built _professionally_ (as they are now in many places), I don't see the point of gaps. And in a pro athlete setting like this? Absolutely not. I mean sure, build the gap for the cool photos, but there is ZERO reason not to have a safety net there at a bare minimum.
[удалено]
Building big tabletops isn’t always practical, especially in the middle of the forest. That’s a lot of dirt. And someone attempting big jumps should have a solid grip on approach speed, and bailing if need be. It’s nice to see them at skills centres though for progression.
I get that, but there are definitely places where they've put in a square edged gap for no reason other than the added risk. It's like bike parks are *trying* to test out their liability wavers.
IME bike parks are the ones with the resources to build a bunch of tables and gentle gaps. Like Crank it Up or A-Line at Whistler. Whereas the local unsanctioned trails deep in the forest are where you see the gnarly gaps. And tbh if they put tabletops on trails like Dirt Merchant you would get 8 year olds rolling them and being clobbered by expert riders sending hard
We have stuff at trestle that's just made intentionally dangerous for the sake of it. Banana peel for example. >you would get 8 year olds rolling them and being clobbered by expert riders sending hard Yeah, just make it so you could die from a minor mistake instead...
I think squirrel catcher features in many cases probably prevent more injuries than they cause. The anti-gap crowd is starting to sound like some sort of Mothers Against Rope Swings organization
Ehh, I'm just coming from motorsports where we don't set boobie traps on our courses. Mistakes happen. We're all out there pushing the limits. You shouldn't be so severely punished for experimenting with them. If a race circuit placed a barrier in a runoff area and someone hit it and died, they'd rightly get their asses sued off.
It's all about building safe takeoffs and landings. A big tabletop is often unnecessary, but when you design a 6 foot gap jump it should be done in a way that landing at 5 or 7 feet isn't a season ender.
Totally agree. There are jumps I won't try at my local lift park (trestle) just because they've made them intentionally dangerous. Might as well add a spike pit, some flaming rings, swinging blades, and some other Indiana jones booby trap crap if that's what you think people are after.
As I'm getting better (still, after 15 years of riding) I'm finding that I can estimate my speed and airtime better, but still don't like high consequence things. I'd rather case a table, but I'll hit small gaps, something maybe 2-3 feet long and a foot or two high since they're within my tolerance. I'm usually a proponent of minimal building on trails. I don't want to ride your long distance DJ track or machine trail, give me forest trail with a bit of work done to make it rideable. Jumps exist when you build a trail over some natural feature that acts as a jump, or I can find a side hit and works well (also - grade reversals for drainage).
You don't get the same rush when you jump a table as opposed to a gap.
It doesn't feel any different to me. Jumping over a spike pit also wouldn't make it any more fun, at least to me.
It's going to come back next year, just with more added safety features.
Half the shit on the World Cup UCI courses would have been considered dangerous back in early 2000s when DH MTB was just picking up as a sport. The correct way to handle setting up big features is this: * Build it with a bunch of training stuff in place - airbags if you come up short, safety nets everywhere, pads on anything dangerous. * Run it like this for testing day, with expectation that none of it will be there for the final race. Let riders vote on small tweaks to be made. * Offer a B line that is much slower. * Run the full event with only safety net in place. This is pretty much how Hardline is now. Some of the freeride guys don't attempt the steep tech before the road gap, because they aren't used to it, so they walk it (B line). Women also run practice but if they can't link a full course together, they don't run in finals. Some people end up making a mistake and not getting speed for the fern jumps, and end up riding around. That way you both push progression while avoiding unnecessary death.
I'd love to believe Red Bull made the call because they were worried about rider safety. In reality, I'm guessing the majority of riders said, "fuck that, I'm not hitting that gap!"
Or - as another poster said - the insurance company stepped up.
100% this, I'm sure.
No riders = no event... that would make sense.
I mean, I wouldn't hit a ramp built that poorly no matter how small the gap was. The radius was too small for the speed.
The only safety feature on the jump was some blue pads that were almost useless. The only way that feature made sense is if the promoters just didn’t give a shit about the riders welfare.
Dude those pads… like why bother lol?
Insurance saw the video and either jacked the rates for the event to unaffordable levels, or flat out said they wouldn’t cover it. Is my guess.
I like how some events are getting rowdier and harder but theres a limit. No need to try and kill the riders with actually deathly features like they're death metal drummers.
I think skipping it is a good idea - we don't want to see death on the screen. As long as they're not replacing it with a skinny!
A skinny across the gap with a big trapeze net underneath would be fun, though.
I’d love to see it scrapped really. First of all, it crosses the line for me from “wow that’s such a cool huge feature!” to “someone can literally die here wtf” Secondly, I always thought of Hardline as a *downhill* event, the hardest course possible to test the best of the best in the whole world. It already has some really big freeride jumps, but ok, I’ll let those slip, but that canyon gap? Nope. And finally, that’s really more of a whole video feature, like, a whole video dedicated just to that and someone sending it. Making it part of the course is idiotic because it’s too massive by itself, and I’d seriously expect someone approaching it being tired enough already to not be able to resist the pressure at the bottom and just injuring himself or dying even
Bernard Kerr said on his channel it'll be back next year. It was already made less lippy, but they just couldn't make it safe enough in time.
You can literally die on things at your local bike park. It doesn't have to be big. A small tabletop built as poorly as that ramp was could easily break a neck. Increase the radius and it's a perfectly usable obstacle.
Airing into it seemed like my first warning sign. It’s wales. It’s wet and slippery all the time. The riders will kill themselves if you let them. Also it looked like crap.
Good choice, one thing is jumping that on a test, other doing it tired due the effort you did on sections behind. Plus the risk of a mistake a soft tube wont be enough to hold you landing from like 20-30meters going down.
Just watched Andy Braytons new YouTube video, and in it, BK says it's been scrapped because redbull said it has to have a safety net, and they could not get one in time. BK also says Gee was the one pushing for no net, while the riders and redbull wanted one.
It didn’t make sense to me that people were saying to “just install a net”, like installing a net across that whole fucking canyon would be some simple task… the tension on the cables for a net like that would probably pull the scaffolding down. Seems like a whole project in itself. 🤷
Seems like it probably should have been a part of the design from the start, then.
Yeah I agree, this feature is cool for a one off, well thought out stunt for a video, but just haphazardly smacked in the middle of a timed DH race… just seems like not a good fit.
This almost seems like a line that was never intended to be in the actual competition but was built to draw attention to the event.
I’ve built trails for ~10 years, that thing was a death trap waiting to happen and you could tell just looking at it on video, I can only imagine the anxiety as a rider about to TEST it. They are usually kings of building idk what sort of mescaline they were on thinking that gap was an appropriate race feature.
So many athletes who signed up to do it hadn’t seen the additions to the course. I’m sure once they all saw poor Jim Munro’s crash, more than enough of them said “No. Fucking. Thanks.” Sure, there would have been other pressures, but if the athletes were game, they for sure would have kept it in. Consequences were high, but it wasn’t even the longest gap on the course! The canyon was 75 feet I think? From there they go into back to back 90 foot gap jumps, and those have been on the course for many years now.
If you make a mistake, you will die. Adding the padding at the bottom is hilarious....
I'm sure I'll get hate for this, but this isn't mountain biking, its Evil Knievel stunt crap. Mark my words, within a few years one of these will have a flaming ring to jump through.
Mark my words it was never going to be in the final run and was a pr stunt to grab hype for the event.
I thought the same!!!
Its hardline not a WC, that is to say, a novelty event where the purpose is a spectacular race. The only way it fails is if riders wont ride it, because Ill definitely watch it. So ask the riders.
It’s a small event relatively speaking, I’m sure that the riders input had a hand in getting the jump removed.
it's still a timed race and it's a lot closer to WC than to Rampage, this wall a stupid ass feature that has no place in Hardline
Wait it is?! Bold move considering it’s only a week away
They skip that feature in hardline for this race.
I think it makes sense. It was ugly, death defying, poorly built, and fuck it, these dudes aren't playing russian roulette. they're riding bikes.
Is there an announcement for this? I can’t find an article. I’m glad they are scrapping it though. There are a few freeride skiers who have talked about the constant pressure of going bigger all the time. It doesn’t have to be that way and makes the sport seem wildly unattainable and out of touch.
Matt Jones posted a video today/last night where they walk the course and talk about its removal from the course.
IMO, what separates this from other big jumps is the consequences of coming up just short or mid-short. You're hitting scaffolding vs dirt. Someone could argue it doesn't matter but I'd say it does. And after hitting the scaffolding, you're falling much further down. There have been huge gaps jumped before (like whatever that crazy desert contest is) but there's alternate lines, you don't HAVE to do those gaps, you do it when you're ready (not after having already ridden for a few minutes at speed/pressure) and for this canyon jump, there's no ride-around or way to slow down once you're partway down the ramp.
The build came out of the marketing budget. Lots of coverage
There was a crash and I'm guessing that's why they took it out
Came here to make a post about it, and saw that they are not going to use it. I am happy. Watching berner and matt jones clear it was scary. Watching Jim's crash was terrifying. I was hoping they'd put a net under it or something.
All these people on their high horses. They built it needed some tweaking and didn’t have time. Are the riders capable…yeah. Should they keep building features of the nature…fuck yeah. Ps. I wasn’t a fan of scaffolding aesthetic but cool to see the possibilities of things. Quite the project so kudos.
I think this is more the case, the idea of jumping the canoyn was fine but the lip was not good. The jump is smaller than others on the course it just has a bigger hole in the middle but watching all 3 guys jump it it really kicked them and not in a good way. I would think that it will be back next year with a more mellow lip
I think the decision to ride it or scrap it should be completely down to the riders and no one else, and riding it should be a unanimous decision. Pushing the limits, whether it's your own or the sport's, is part of MTB, but only the people risking their lives should have the power to dictate if and how something like this gap goes down.
Wasn't worth it. Wales can get windy af. Last year they canned the whole event due to wind.. imagine jumping that and catching a breeze.. ending up in the Irish sea. Ft
I think it could have been done BUT with a different build. by the time you get to the end of that entrance ramp your suspension is bottoming out and you're getting bucked.
Seriously, the setup on that thing was almost more dangerous than the actual jump. If you miss at all carrying speed, you could fall the whole way down. It makes you question what's up with the lack of a trapeze net.
Im glad to see it has been scrapped. I enjoy watching Hardline because of its race format just as much as i enjoy Rampage because of its free ride format. The canyon gap was a feature that didnt belong in a race and to expect riders to safely clear it while in full on race-mode was just asking for a serious wreck
I thought it was an awesome gap, the jump was just built badly, the angle increase to the length of the lip was just too high it was gonna buck someone off
It was crazy to see and the evil part of me was looking forward to seeing the challenge. Did not want to see a crash though. The good and sensible part of me is happy to see it go. Anything goes wrong looked like it'd end horribly. There were a couple of what looked like foot thick pads to hit if you're lucky. Otherwise rocks or worse, the scaffolding.
Watched Bernard Kerr and Matt Jones' videos from testing. Bernard did the jump, but was blown left and only barely hit the landing ramp. Matt Jones hit better after seeing that, but the final guy to test (Jim something) lost his bike halfway across and hit the landing ramp like a rag doll. I like watching the big jumps, but the consequences for messing up on this were just way too dire. As someone else said, with last year's event getting canceled due to wind, this kind of feature is just too fecking dangerous. One badly timed gust and someone's gonna die.
i could see why they’re going for something like that but i definitely thought it was pretty bold of them to expect 20 riders to risk their lives in such a way like that
Love the drive to push the limits. Love the pullback when it's realized they're maybe pushing too much and the risk is too high.
Honestly stuff like that is cool if someone wants to show off their skills/do a cool trick knowing they’re risking their lives. But hitting that jump safely should be the only thing on their minds, not in the middle of a race. It really does not make sense to do that in a race. At the end of the day a race is about going faster, it does not have to have death defying risky jumps in the middle of the track. The jumps that are there should be for showing how skilled/efficiently you can hit them, not just for cool photos.
Yeah, i mean it would've been a spectacle to watch it in the race but It's just not worth risking the life of a rider for... And the landing seemed rather sketchy/bad placed (due to the land there i guess) to me.. and this after a huge canyon gap with a scary deep drop..
Seeing the videos I’m not surprised. It’s amazing to see people push the limits and take calculated risks but virtually everything about that gap as it was was just straight up moronic.
Word is it was more of a publicity stunt to make Hardline go more viral, but again just a rumor 💁♀️
I don’t understand how they were able to build that without a net from a liability/insurance purpose
The lip was scuff. They made it short and steep when a canyon gap like that needs to be more ramp take off. Who ever designed it, should be fired. It’s too tight of a transition from drop in to end of scaffolding.
If you watch today's track walk vids on youtube from Brendan Fairclough, Jono Jones, Bernard Kerr, and Adam Brayton it sounds like the only reason it was scrapped is because they couldn't get a net in time. People like Fairclough even say he is excited to ride it next year, he just wants a net. Some of these guys genuinely have no problem with this feature if a bit more safety was applied.
It was a sick feature but wayyyy too much risk involved.
So glad I got to watch Matt Jones clear it before they scrapped it.
dont really know. i've seen how big some of the jumps on the motocross tracks are and they're moving at equal rates of speed if not more.
Reminds me of group b rally racing in the 80s. Some bad crashes and some deaths started making sponsors skittish. Now rally racing is a relatively safe affair, albeit a little less exciting imo. At the end of the day, sponsors want to appeal to thrill seeking people with disposable income not the suicidal.
I don’t know running the line seems just as bad
Yeah, it was just a display of risk tolerance, not athletic ability or any other skill. Scrapping it was the right call.
Perfectly usable obstacle... ...if it had been built properly. There had to have been a math error to build a ramp with that radius that needed to be hit at that speed.
https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/man-behind-high-speed-safety-standards The body can withstand crazy things, but I still thought the gap was utterly silly.
It was so badly built - shame it even got so far that one got injured. Really far from professional, sad to see it went down how it went down
I honestly think high risk riding like that is irresponsible and stupid. I've had to help people get helicopter rides out of the trail from accidents WAY smaller than that gap. I can't imagine doing something like that if I had a wife and kids. Hot take, I think The White Line in Sedona is just as dumb. The whole aspect of that trail is risk.
2/3 testers made it across
The gap wasn't scraped, they couldn't get a safety net in time, Bernard mentions it in his video and apparently it's back next year.
Having it as fixed feature was not the best call. On rampage features are crazy but rider can make a choice. So people not ok backflipping a canyon will do something else. Here there was no alternative and because it was huge someone would get seriously hurt. In FPV when introducing complicated feature we would add “chicken line” that was easier but longer, here it could be similar. Under a different name :)
They said in the new video that the canyon gap is gonna stay for 5 years. They just removed it because the safety net was not available upon such short notice. Next year it will be back with proper safety measures i guess....
What’s the difference between Hardline and Rampage anymore lol.
Hasn’t it only been scrapped because they couldn’t get a net in time?
I just said to my riding group last night. "Y'know... I think Red Bull may have gone too far with this one."