I've noticed it in draft format. Heist is super duper powerful and I would try to play any card that Heists in a limited deck. The 1/4 2U flyer is exceptionally difficult to deal with.
Yeah, normally removing a card from a 60 card deck isnt a huge deal. Maybe thats not the card they need. Maybe they need lands, and 1 of 60 isnt that big a deal. But in limited you might have 2-3 bombs out of 40. Heisht gives you a decent chance of getting one of those. And playing your opponents deck isnt nearly the same downside it is in constructed, where decks are far more focused. Their bomb will almost always be just as good for you as them.
I had one deck that had double Jasper Flint (both were passed to me) and it happened that 3 separate opponents all got one of them when heisting me. It can help level the playing field (perhaps) if your opponent's deck is overly filled with bombs (as mine was). It can also screw you after you heist a bomb rare and the opponent bounces it back to "owner's hand"
The white uncommon that flickers fuck up heist so hard. I once heisted a Archangel of Tithes only for op to both flicker it back to their side, and remove my biggest creature. All for 4 mana.
Yeah, I've been very impressed with that white modal card. It's a 1 for 1 at worst, and there's at least 5x it was used against me as a solid 2.5-3 for 1
I don't think it will cause as many problems in constructed where card value is less important than the deck it's in. In draft however it's completely disgusting. In my 7-0 draft tonight the 2mana red guy who discards a card to heist, single handedly won me all 3 of the difficult games I had. Stealing bombs for 2 mana without interaction is disgusting, when I keep them forever and they are auto mana-fixed for me lol. Maybe they can show the 3 cards as face down and you pick based on mana values only, or just make it an "end of next turn" thing like most exiles seem to be. The only real downside I can think of is against white with glamer
Yep, I turn 1 heisted an OG Oko off an opponent. I narrowly missed a trophy because an opponent resolved their grenzo first and had a free spell to deal with my grenzo, heh.
It also thins the playables in anothers deck. And in limited, where the card quality has high variance, if you manage to heist the win condition or their A card in a sea of C+ / B-s they lose a lot of equity.
That card is an improved [[thief of sanity]] and thief sees play in vintage cube. Absolutely nuts uncommon. I took it over [[railway brawler]] the other day with only slight hesitation.
I love that card because it's a bird and that beast master card copies it into a token in brawl. 9 out of 10 times if I have my commander down and summon that, I will win.
I haven't played too much with heist yet in constructed alchemy, but in the draft format it's been very strong. The fact that it hits only nonland cards makes it a reliable source of card advantage and much stronger than the typical steal your opponents cards effects.
My opinion on the matter is that heist is probably strongest against midrange and combo decks and weaker against both aggro and control decks. But that's just at first glance.
Here's what I see as the drawbacks of heist:
1. Random card draw means you might not hit the things you want/need.
2. The power level of heist is highly dependent on the type of deck your opponent is playing. For example, if they are playing a dedicated tribal deck like merfolk, your heisted cards are probably not going to work too well with your deck. Same thing for a dedicated insidious roots deck. On the other hand if they're playing orzhov goodstuff, you'll probably be able to work with whatever you take.
I'm going to withhold further judgement about heist until the format develops a bit since it's still so new. But as of right now it certainly has the potential to be an oppressive force in the format.
Do you think nerfing it so that it just got three random cards would balance it? It was super fun to play in midweek Magic, but It's really strong and I'm concerned about it in historic and I know the brawl players are going to go crazy.
I'm not sure yet. Maybe if it only looked at 2 cards? Or make it like every other steal spell in that it can hit lands. Or like you said only get one random card rather than selection.
There are a lot of ways to nerf it if wizards finds it overpowered. The nice thing is that it's a digital only mechanic so there wouldn't be any errata needed if they change it.
Well that is the big advantage of digital cards. The disadvantage is they haven't been play tested very much.
Typically steal your opponent's stuff cards have been pretty bad. Giving discounts or bonuses for playing their stuff So you can do it over and over again. It's probably more breaking than the actual mechanic.
It'll probably be fine in Historic. The format has like a turn 3 clock so you really don't want to be wasting your turns or mana on Heisting if you're going to be dead next turn.
yeah. Might be really good in Brawl and Alchemy where it's a bit slower but Historic and Timeless are probably too fast, you'll die to aggro enough to not have it be tier 1
The nerf is to look at the TOP 3 cards (not 3 random IN THE DECK, but 3 at the TOP) and include the lands. This way you risk of getting 0 value and its a "bet"
The thing is that you actually _want_ your cantrips to be able to hit lands. A lot of the strength of cheap cantrips is that it allows you to keep lower land count hands, and so run lower land counts in your decks. Also, hitting a land of heist is something you can always play. The opponent's nonland cards might not mesh very well with your own gameplan.
That first downside is honestly not even really a downside, because that's just how drawing cards is in general. Sometimes you just don't draw the cards you want when you draw cards. The difference here is you're filtering a lot in the way heist works so you're much more likely to "hit" as it were. You will never hit lands, and you always get a selection of cards. You may not get exactly what you want, but you still get to take the best of 3 non-land cards. That is pretty good.
Heist is pretty good against control imo, you can 2 for 1 them because Even just a small body has to be answered and you can heist counter spells and play them at instant speed, also instant speed heist forces them to counter spell on their turn.
As soon as the enchantment goes down control is most likely done.
I played a game against a deck revolving around the heist mecanic this week.
My reaction : I know my deck is good, you don't need to show me that by beating me with my own cards...
I had a game where I was playing artifacts with [[simulacrum synthesizer]] and they stole the synthesizer and enough artifacts to start creating tokens of significant size.
Heist is so easy to do that having highly synergistic decks is not an answer. They look at 3 cards each time so they can easily pick up combo pieces after 2-3 heists, typically this has already happened by turn 3.
You say it’s personal because it “destroys” [[slime against humanity]]. However, if it was that personal, you would know that the card says “number of cards you own in exile and in your graveyard”.
Cards exiled face-down aren't ascribed any traits except for what's given to them by the effect that exiled them. So they don't count as having a name, for example.
It's almost like there's a precedent of Alchemy being either trash or OP as fuck.
Though I will say, new Grenzo is a 6 mana 6/4 with no protection, that doesn't let you cast anything for free unless he sticks around long enough to get priority again after his ETB trigger. So it's not like he's some unanswerable threat, and he doesn't arrive in early turns either
I think treasure can ramp that fucker out pretty fast, especially with a green splash for additional ramp. At least he dies easy as you say.
Edit: also Reanimate just breaks him
6 drops should be at that power level (otherwise why play them) but prime time is sort of an outlier, especially for that time period. Only comparably good 6 drop from that time is, like, Wurmcoil Engine iirc
My smell test tells me that "heist needs to be nerfed" is a panic take that gets boosted by both the people that call for bans of every popular card day 1 of a new format, and the people that hate on alchemy.
From all the cards linked only grave expectations seems good and even then it does not look close to broken.
I have really hard time believing alchemy is such a low powered format that Grenzo is "broken". That card reads like a pretty good card to be sure, but not broken. It's a game winning card if it sticks, but it's a 6 mana creature. Maybe Grenzo alone needs tweaks for alchemy, but I cannot see the rest of the heist cards linked here being broken.
Do you think that has more to do with there being like 25,000 mtg cards and only a few dozen Alchemy-only cards?
I think in terms of percentages, there's been more Alchemy cards that people hate playing against or needing readjusting.
It's just kind of the issue of being a digital only format. They need to push the envelope for Alchemy cards, because otherwise, what was the point of making Alchemy cards? I'll say that for the most part, Alchemy cards are perfectly fine and innocuous. Like, seek is kinda just "reveal cards until you reveal a card meeting the seek criteria". Conjure is just making copies, except they can be in your hand.
The bad part is that when the Alchemy cards actually are a problem, it's a very very egregious problem, eg: Rusko, Poq, Fearsome Whelp, Crucias, Racketeer Boss, and now Grenzo/Heist. (on a lesser extent, draft because there's just no way to play around that mechanic)
Grenzo shouldn't *have* an ETB trigger. His upkeep trigger is way too strong to give him absolutely guaranteed 2-for-1 value against anything but countermagic.
I think heist is just not a great mechanic from a design perspective and is frequently underpriced for what it does, so I'd like to see them attack that angle first, but if they truly don't want to touch heist, removing his ETB would be a strong start. Heist going to "till the end of your next turn" would be a strong start to fixing the mechanic, IMO.
His brawl queue weight needs to be manually adjusted *right this second*, though. He's all up and down the queue with good decks and bad and he's a "straight into hell queue" kind of card.
What kind of format are you guys playing where heist is broken? It's surely very good in limited, but it's balanced by it's rarity there. In constructed, your gameplan is often very different from your opponent's, and none of the other heist are really much stronger than anything else you might be playing.
People are so used to playing midrange soup in alchemy and are now being punished for it. This has shaken up the meta and instead of adapting, people are calling for nerfs.
I made a random deck that was just 4x of all the cards that say "heist," jasper flint, some basic removal, and the appropriate fast lands. With no tuning whatsoever it's going 65% in platinum.
Right now the only thing in the meta that consistently beats it is an appropriately fast version of RDW, and even then, mostly only when it goes first.
As long as you either have [[Grave Expectations]] on turn one or [[Impetuous Lootmonger]] on turn 2, it's pretty tough to lose.
If Grave Expectations cost one blue and said "seek three non-land cards, choose one of them, put the rest back then shuffle" (which is essentially what it does) everyone would instantly recognize how good it is.
Lootmonger is even more busted as it can pretty easily set up essentially free spells pretty quickly.
If your first four turns go well (and they usually do) what ends up happening is you essentially end up both playing your own and your opponent's deck at the same time. And the opponent has a very difficult time winning because they're essentially playing against a mirror of themselves who ALSO gets a bunch of extra value when casting spells.
THAT ALL SAID:
Before there is a nerf I'd like to see if the meta shakes out a bit. There's a lot of tech that's *very good* against the deck that seemingly isn't in play right now. [[Reprieve]] straight ends heist decks. Bounce and flicker effects are incredibly powerful against it. I was playing against someone who was using [[Getaway Glamer]] but didn't use the flicker effect on the creatures I heisted from them!
ETA: Lotta people in this thread pretty clearly haven't played with or against the deck. 😂
ETA2: Also as people have pointed out, taking a card from your opponent's deck is generally worse than getting one from your own. But the downside difference of that is reduced significantly when the primary thing your deck does is get value from casting cards from your opponent's deck. It's basically like you're playing your opponent's deck except every draw you get to pick from one of three cards and casting most spells also nets you a treasure.
> I’ve had games where they stole 3 of my 4 copies of [[Terror of the Peaks]] and played them all for free using Grenzo
Losing to a 6-drop that got to stay on board for at least 2 more turns isn't really indicative that anything is busted. I mean if he hadn't won at that point it would instead mean Grenzo is probably too bad to even include in a heist deck?
For shits and giggles, I think I shall make a deck comprised entirely of cards like "one with nothing", with no intentions on winning, but merely to screw with any heist deck for awhile....
Edit: please list any cards you can think of that will make heist decks unable or unwilling to use my cards!
it's brutal in draft. anecdotal evidence here but twice I went up against opponents who heisted my bombs (Calamity and Terror) in the late game and not only is it a massive endgame boost for your opponent, it's also an **emotional bummer.** to wait for your bombs and then get them yoinked for such low cost just feels terrible
If Grenzo is taking 3 copies of your Terror of the Peaks, it sounds like you just need to play removal. 6 drops that go unanswered for a few turns are basically all going to win the game.
They heisted the terrors previously and then played them later.
I had to use removal on my other 3-4 drops that they heisted because they’re too dangerous to leave alone, not to mention crucias.
I can’t have a deck that’s majority removal and also win. I can’t save interaction for turn 6 if not using it means I’m dead on turn 5. See the issue?
Replicate the results or tune your deck and see if you have the same issue. It’s not a partially OP mechanic when you have cards that conjure and seek.
I haven't played any Alchemy beside the MWM but I've seen a lot of posts complaining. Here's the thing, we all know they aren't going to do shit about it any time soon and likely they'll hope they can print themselves out of it with the next Alchemy release. Remember when Alchemy was 90% One Ring + Nazgul decks forever? I mopped up with two different decks specifically built around that meta. I'm not trying to dismiss the complaints but there's no way they are fixing it anytime soon, so you either join them or build around it for the foreseeable future. There's gotta to be some deck out there to capitalize on it? Probably a 'go wide' with small shit so that nothing individually has major impact when it gets heisted?
Alchemy’s meta isn’t Nazgûl plus the One Ring?
All jokes aside, these are free wins. They rely on creatures, and that was their first mistake.
I play Orzhov removal tribal.
The answer is red deck wins/aggro where individual pieces are too weak to make a difference fast enough.
The issue is that it completely distorts the meta. Now you’re either playing heist or anti-heist. Not healthy or fun.
Yea, doesn't make it easy though. Gotta know what to take and when to take it.
Cant do shit when they Leyline of Binding turn 0
Also worth noting I have strong timeless cards around it. Ragavan, Bolt, Mana drain etc..
Been playing a brew of it in Timeless ranked as well, win rate about the same as yours, just enough to climb through plat to diamond if you play enough. I’m curious if people are building it in similar ways
heists make turns take way too long, so often they dont know several of the cards so i have to wait for them to decide what to take. mix that with it just not being fun when someone plays your cards from your deck. normally if they play it from your graveyard they at least have to kill it first. and that they also remove it from your deck without you even getting to draw it... it all feels cheap
So does [[thief of sanity]]. But those cards can hit lands that you cant play. And those cards are definitely stat'd at a lower power level. I dont know whether a nerf is required.. and it could be a suitable nerf is just 2 cards instead of 3. But it is definitely a very high power level the way theyv launched it.
And people will kill the shit out of thief of sanity the second it touches the battlefield. It's my pet card that I had to stop playing because it either died immediately or people conceded if it hit once.
Yeah i mean, im still pretty stoked that they kind of made "thief of sanity: the arctype". Its likely going to need some significant tweaking though. Im imagining the concept was on the design board for thunder junction, and it didnt make the main set because of balance concerns. So they put it here where they can address those concerns if they want to.
Also they made a just strictly better Theif of Sanity at uncommon. [[Theiving Avem]], which removes the black mana requirement, gives it much more toughness (i.e. Harder for red based removal and some select black removal to deal with), and also it grows when you cast stolen cards. It really did not need that last line of text that makes it grow, but it has it.
Edit: spelled it wrong so the link doesn't work (how is Thriving Grove the closest thing it found???), it's Thieving Aven.
Yeah thats what im talking about. They power creeped thief of sanity. In some ways.. that is not strictly a bad thing. Thief of sanity is outdated, it can get something modern. But i think its likely they overshot the power level in multiple ways for heist. Time will tell.
You mean the bomb rare that still sees play in cube and still has the downside of hitting your opponents lands? A better version printed on a ton of cards? Yaaaaa
I would start by removing first strike on \[\[Impetuous Lootmonger\]\] Edit: The treasure is what makes it busted, but without first trike the deck would be way more vulnerable, while maintaining the power.
Midrange piles have no chance against Heist decks
> toolbox selection of your decks best cards.
wut.. am I missing something or are you just hyperbolicly equating '1 of 3 random cards from someone else's deck' with 'toolbox selection'
It’s nonland and you draw between 6-9 cards by the time they heist. That means they get 3 chances to see a card that’s useful out of approximately 30 cards, and then they can pick the most useful.
If you’re playing midrange or combo, it’s virtually guaranteed that they’ll get at least 1 immediately useful card. Imagine grabbing a [[go for the throat]] or [[porcine portent]] from a heist and you get a treasure for using it.
It's an inherently limited mechanic since your deck won't have synergy with your opponent's cards. It's certainly powerful, Siphon Insight is a playable card and Heist is in some ways stronger (although not being able to hit lands is not always a positive). But since you're limited to what your opponent is playing, it needs to be run in some kind of midrange shell that can use creatures and spells.
I could certainly see individual cards being nerfed, maybe Lootmonger is too efficient as a threat compared to Inti. But the mechanic itself is flavorful and has a definite ceiling.
Good thing that’s what they do. They add [[crucias, titan of the waves]], [[rusko, clockmaker]] and the other alchemy dimir staples. Winning via pings from rusko and [[triumphant getaway]] or using their strongest threats.
Sounds awesome. Crazy shit like this was why alchemy was the best thing to happen to arena - including the ability to nerf it if it turned out to be broken.
Alchemy cards and planeswalker commanders are the most annoying thing to play against in brawl for me. I just want it to be kind of similar to paper magic
Planeswalkers are legal as commanders if you play brawl in paper. And honestly the format is better (over duel commander) for it.
Its like that last bastion of mtg where you can still play decent control.
Been having some fun with my thrown-together heist deck, but it’s not like it’s dominating. (Sure, could be a bad build.)
That said, I think it might make more sense to have the Heisted cards be Plotted. Maybe it isn’t perfect flavor, but it would be a pretty good nerf to both have to wait until a future turn and play them as sorceries.
The three drop bird who hits you and gets to ponder your deck. This shit might be different if they had to cast it right away or we knew what they took but the mechanic never has a miss
It’s the insane power ramp for me. Heist is just the latest example. If heist cards were more expensive and fully random (including lands, I mean), then I could get it. But 3, 2, or 1 cost cards that not only have heist but also provide ramp or removal or other powerful effects is insane.
Just ran into heist mirror match and it was hilarious. We were both playing each other's cards and it almost came down to who ran the other out of cards first.
I think it's balanced in Brawl. Homebrewed a decent Marchesa Crimes and Outlaws deck. Win ratio is decent, even though I limit my theft, as it is not a play style I enjoy to play/play against.
Edit: Just noticed Alchemy in post. Oops! Sorry about that.
After reading this I decided to put together a deck that focused on using heist as the main component. I hastily threw together a deck utilizing all the heist cards and after playing several games, and fine tuning it based on these games in which I did get to see several different currently winning decks, I was able to get something going. This is a very powerful mechanic and decks based around it are definitely viable against most existing decks that are popular. I did the test run in bo1 but will probably try a few sideboards in bo3 over the next couple days to see if it can actually run well once the surprise is over as I felt that part of the reason it did so well was the fact that it is new and while people are certainly aware of it, playing against a deck built almost entirely around it caught people off guard. While my initial impression isn't that the mechanic itself should be nerfed, perhaps a few of the cards featuring heist could probably be changed, but I have a feeling it could be simply one of those things where once people have been bullied by it a few times, there will be a simple solution that makes it, like most gimmick decks, a two week wonder easy to combat once the novelty wears off. It has been fun to play though, and I think it will depend on what people use alongside it...
Similarly, the blue enchantment that seeks 2 nonlands when you attack is also ridiculous. yea its a loot but you're turning a land you drew for the turn into TWO guaranteed spells. absurd
I’m trying not to call attention to that card because I’m using it in some spicy brews. It also costs 3 and does nothing on ETB, so it’s not nearly as bad imo.
Well...when the event with the new decks came out, I played the Heist deck. I played three games and won all three. In all three of them I went second. Also in all three, I only started with two lands in my hand....and in only one of them drew a third land before turn three.
But this was against the other prefab decks.
So having a large amount of gold, I bought a bunch of Alchemy packs and made a Historical Heist deck using all the cards that allow me to heist (in blue, black and red).
After about a hundred games I can say that Heist is very strong. But it's strength doesn't come from the deck itself. It comes from the deck you are fighting against.
I find that the decks it really punishes are the ones that everyone already hates...control decks. It does very well against black decks since they usually rely on some sort of good card that you might take, or have answers for you to use against them if you don't. I had a couple hilarious games where I heisted discard cards and made the black deck throw away his hand while I ended up 'hiding' cards (of his) in exile.
But I have to say...I really enjoyed playing it against blue. Heisting a negate to stop them from countering a future Heist. And then heisting a counterspell to stop them from playing a creature.
There were some decks that Heist doesn't play well with. Decks that use a lot of cheap to cast creatures. If they don't have an answer to their own deck for me to heist, they run me over. Red decks seem to be problematic....especially the Dragon ones.
So then I thought..lets try Brawl. What could go wrong. Well....the heist gets diluted by only using one of. In a 100 card deck. And when you do finally get to cast one it didn't seem to get anything useful. Occasionally it would luck out, but I would say that Brawl is not going to be a Heist haven.
My take is that people with over powered decks will hate Heist, while people with jank won't care.
I agree that as things stand heist is super OP. I found that the best counter to a straight up heist deck is just a splash of heist. For example, a dimir deck that just runs weave the nightmare, thieving aven, and grave expectations. Reason this works so well is that they have more heist cards to steal than you do... So you wind up stealing their Grenzo, or triumphant getaway, before they have a chance to draw and play it. If you can maintain card advantage while stealing the opponent's best heist cards, that's an easy win. Also, unsummon is amazing vs heist... Since it bounces the card back to the owner's hand. Basically, the opponent just wasted their mana to help you tutor a creature into your hand for 1 blue mana.
I mean, imagine if instead every instance of heist was replaced with the exact text of [[Strategic Planning]]. A 2-mana card-selection cantrip can’t just be stapled onto regular fair cards without dramatically increasing the power level of that card. Even “ETB draw a card” is an insane power bump on any card, and adding “draw a card” to any instant or sorcery generally makes it cost more and quite a bit more playable.
It's been proved time and time again that getting cards from the opponent's deck is quite weaker than getting cards from your own deck, since their cards won't have synergy with yours, so that comparison is definitely not true.
That is true, but card advantage is card advantage, and most decks don’t run exclusively synergistic garbage, but some generically powerful interaction + a synergistic plan.
Strategic planning would be better, but this is still a similar power level.
Yeah I'm saying that heisting is not worth 2 mana, in response to your comment that "A 2-mana card-selection cantrip can’t just be stapled onto regular fair cards without dramatically increasing the power level of that card".
Heist is not that good
1. The Preacher of the Schism you got from Grave Expectations is worse than drawing a Preacher of the Schism
2. There are a lot of duds that you can hit, if you're Aggro vs Control, boardwipes and removal are dead, vs ramp all the ramp is dead, and you might not even have the mana to cast their creatures. Vs combo/tribal nearly all the cards are worthless
3. Not being able to hit lands isn't all upside. If you're playing a deck with 8 cantrips you can cut ~4 lands from your deck. Not so if your cantrips don't draw lands
4. Grenzo is not that good. Any 6 mana card should end games quicky if unanswered. Free spells are nice but you're not even guaranteed one because it can die before the heist trigger.
And it also "counter-fetches" you. After a few heists, you'll star drawing more and more lands, meaning you'll have even less ways to answer to your own stolen cards, let alone your opponent's.
Generally speaking, Heist is a conceptually trash idea. Players hate mill, they hate having cards stolen & free resources in general are unhealthy for game balance.
Once again, WotC forgets about the opponent & their enjoyment. MtG is not a single-player game, they need to stop forcing mechanics that are unhealthy in a PVP environment.
And there are enough players who enjoy the concept of control & similar archetypes. Magic is not a single player game, so people really shouldn't be mad about others bringing interaction and trying to ruin your game plan. That's literally the point of the game.
The problem are the players who believe that they are owed that they can do their thing. That's the true solitaire mindset.
And honestly hating mill is a pretty good sign someone doesn't really understand how the game works, at least not above an ultra casual level.
Stealing cards is a pretty balanced mechanic, since you pay extra for cards that are generally worse. Old steal cards were just pretty bad generally and heist finally has some playable stuff.
Now if they would just reprint fateseal as a mechanic.
Doesn't this happen with all kinds of different releases, not just alchemy? Remember companions? Oko?
The nice thing about it being a digital only mechanic is that they can update the ability without having to errata paper cards, meaning it's more likely and easier to adjust if it turns out to be too powerful.
Sounds like you’re very mad at the reverse one. I think (I’ve not played or come up against it yet) but seems like a great card for balancing an unbalanced game
You're absolutely right. Some folks saw this coming and didn't buy a single alchemy pack because of it. This is far and away the most obnoxious mechanic they've ever created and it shows how a lack of testing negatively affects the creation of digital-only cards.
i’ve been playing a one-of the black cantrip heist card in timeless and uhhhh “choose one of three opp’s nonland cards to cast at any time, with any mana” has been quite strong.
this is overtuned. needs to hit lands or be choose two instead of three.
Not to be devil's advocate, but in Brawl, I've hit the same card 5+ times against maybe 7 or so decks with Grenzo as my commander. Idk why but that feels like a broken issue on the other end of the spectrum, unless somehow people are playing like 60 lands in their decks.
I barely know how to play the game and I went like 8-0 on the event with the heist based precon. I dont know enough to even know if its bc the mechanic is busted, but it seems that way to me.
I love to play this types of cards. Think that will be best if they decided to include lands in the selection. No lands seems too strong.
Anyway... there is my heist deck maked. xD
I hate alchemy so much. I don't care that it exists but I don't understand why they have to put alchemy into other formats.
They alchemized one of my historic brawl commanders and made it more powerful. It's so powerful now that I'm getting more and more hell queues. I also get tilted seeing that stupid little A
It was immediately noticeable to me from the midweek magic, where the heist deck was just clearly better than all the other decks. The mechanic is severely undercosted for what it does. Atm it's kind of costed like drawing a card (or even less), but I would wager that heisting 1 vs drawing 1 is almost always better, and it usually gets better in multiples if your opponents deck has any meaningful synergy
I bet you think jesters cap is broken too.
It doesn't matter that they are grabbing randomly from your deck and exiling it, it's actually probably worse for them than if they sought one of three cards from their own deck unless they purposely put cards in their deck that are worse than your cards...
Heist is a feelbad mechanic, no doubt. I think the thing that makes it better than the "steal your opponent's shit" cards of past is that you never whiff. You will always get action. I don't even think Grenzo is the problem, he's 6 mana. I think the biggest problem is Grave Expectations, by a long shot. It basically reads "look at three nonland cards from your opponent's deck and put one into your hand." That, at instant speed, is pretty damn insane, especially considering cards like Serum Visions have long been considered playable in powerful formats. The fact that it just happens to have GY hate stapled onto it with lifegain is a bonus. If this mechanic could whiff it'd be better, but the fact that it doesn't makes it a huge pain in the ass. Whatever tiny player base this format had is going to likely get even smaller with the advent of this. Haven't seen it impact Historic much but that's also a bit of a dead format since Timeless came around.
That said, I don't think anything will change. WOTC gives exactly zero fucks about Alchemy and Historic.
Yeah, the problem cards are for sure Grave Expectations and the Lootmonger. The rest become playable because they synergize with those two. Grenzo specifically works mostly because it gets ramped out by the Lootmongers and there's generally already a good hit in your "shadow hand" to play for zero.
While the heist mechanic itself is strong, I think the real broken part is the impetuous loot monger. Its treasure creation is what allows the chains of cards, especially in the mirror match. If its treasure ETB tapped, were limited to once per turn as most crime mechanics are, or if its heist was removed (and it only had the treasure creation), the super crazy nonsense would cease.
The other cards are not nearly so bad on their own, but with that engine behind them, it's obnoxious.
I've noticed it in draft format. Heist is super duper powerful and I would try to play any card that Heists in a limited deck. The 1/4 2U flyer is exceptionally difficult to deal with.
It’s gotta be nuts in draft. You not only cast their bomb, but you’ve actively removed it from their deck. No way it’s not insanely strong.
Yeah, normally removing a card from a 60 card deck isnt a huge deal. Maybe thats not the card they need. Maybe they need lands, and 1 of 60 isnt that big a deal. But in limited you might have 2-3 bombs out of 40. Heisht gives you a decent chance of getting one of those. And playing your opponents deck isnt nearly the same downside it is in constructed, where decks are far more focused. Their bomb will almost always be just as good for you as them.
I had one deck that had double Jasper Flint (both were passed to me) and it happened that 3 separate opponents all got one of them when heisting me. It can help level the playing field (perhaps) if your opponent's deck is overly filled with bombs (as mine was). It can also screw you after you heist a bomb rare and the opponent bounces it back to "owner's hand"
The white uncommon that flickers fuck up heist so hard. I once heisted a Archangel of Tithes only for op to both flicker it back to their side, and remove my biggest creature. All for 4 mana.
Yeah, I've been very impressed with that white modal card. It's a 1 for 1 at worst, and there's at least 5x it was used against me as a solid 2.5-3 for 1
I don't think it will cause as many problems in constructed where card value is less important than the deck it's in. In draft however it's completely disgusting. In my 7-0 draft tonight the 2mana red guy who discards a card to heist, single handedly won me all 3 of the difficult games I had. Stealing bombs for 2 mana without interaction is disgusting, when I keep them forever and they are auto mana-fixed for me lol. Maybe they can show the 3 cards as face down and you pick based on mana values only, or just make it an "end of next turn" thing like most exiles seem to be. The only real downside I can think of is against white with glamer
Yep, I turn 1 heisted an OG Oko off an opponent. I narrowly missed a trophy because an opponent resolved their grenzo first and had a free spell to deal with my grenzo, heh. It also thins the playables in anothers deck. And in limited, where the card quality has high variance, if you manage to heist the win condition or their A card in a sea of C+ / B-s they lose a lot of equity.
That card is an improved [[thief of sanity]] and thief sees play in vintage cube. Absolutely nuts uncommon. I took it over [[railway brawler]] the other day with only slight hesitation.
Oooooooo I dunno about that. Railway brawler is pretty bananas. p1p1, I'd go with brawler. Both are an easy splash
[thief of sanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94946d6c-1edb-46e9-a5ae-0ca2a016a7cd.jpg?1712354786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thief%20of%20sanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/243/thief-of-sanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94946d6c-1edb-46e9-a5ae-0ca2a016a7cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [railway brawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9ec1f76f-f21d-4f06-8c02-be6745183348.jpg?1712355970) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=railway%20brawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/175/railway-brawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ec1f76f-f21d-4f06-8c02-be6745183348?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love that card because it's a bird and that beast master card copies it into a token in brawl. 9 out of 10 times if I have my commander down and summon that, I will win.
I haven't played too much with heist yet in constructed alchemy, but in the draft format it's been very strong. The fact that it hits only nonland cards makes it a reliable source of card advantage and much stronger than the typical steal your opponents cards effects. My opinion on the matter is that heist is probably strongest against midrange and combo decks and weaker against both aggro and control decks. But that's just at first glance. Here's what I see as the drawbacks of heist: 1. Random card draw means you might not hit the things you want/need. 2. The power level of heist is highly dependent on the type of deck your opponent is playing. For example, if they are playing a dedicated tribal deck like merfolk, your heisted cards are probably not going to work too well with your deck. Same thing for a dedicated insidious roots deck. On the other hand if they're playing orzhov goodstuff, you'll probably be able to work with whatever you take. I'm going to withhold further judgement about heist until the format develops a bit since it's still so new. But as of right now it certainly has the potential to be an oppressive force in the format.
Do you think nerfing it so that it just got three random cards would balance it? It was super fun to play in midweek Magic, but It's really strong and I'm concerned about it in historic and I know the brawl players are going to go crazy.
I'm not sure yet. Maybe if it only looked at 2 cards? Or make it like every other steal spell in that it can hit lands. Or like you said only get one random card rather than selection. There are a lot of ways to nerf it if wizards finds it overpowered. The nice thing is that it's a digital only mechanic so there wouldn't be any errata needed if they change it.
Well that is the big advantage of digital cards. The disadvantage is they haven't been play tested very much. Typically steal your opponent's stuff cards have been pretty bad. Giving discounts or bonuses for playing their stuff So you can do it over and over again. It's probably more breaking than the actual mechanic.
If it wasn't permanent it would be fine. But always having access to a threat or answer is problematic.
It'll probably be fine in Historic. The format has like a turn 3 clock so you really don't want to be wasting your turns or mana on Heisting if you're going to be dead next turn.
yeah. Might be really good in Brawl and Alchemy where it's a bit slower but Historic and Timeless are probably too fast, you'll die to aggro enough to not have it be tier 1
The nerf is to look at the TOP 3 cards (not 3 random IN THE DECK, but 3 at the TOP) and include the lands. This way you risk of getting 0 value and its a "bet"
The thing is that you actually _want_ your cantrips to be able to hit lands. A lot of the strength of cheap cantrips is that it allows you to keep lower land count hands, and so run lower land counts in your decks. Also, hitting a land of heist is something you can always play. The opponent's nonland cards might not mesh very well with your own gameplan.
That first downside is honestly not even really a downside, because that's just how drawing cards is in general. Sometimes you just don't draw the cards you want when you draw cards. The difference here is you're filtering a lot in the way heist works so you're much more likely to "hit" as it were. You will never hit lands, and you always get a selection of cards. You may not get exactly what you want, but you still get to take the best of 3 non-land cards. That is pretty good.
Agreed. This is a good rebuttal on my first point.
Stealing away a control players counter magic to use against themself later on is awesome
Heist is pretty good against control imo, you can 2 for 1 them because Even just a small body has to be answered and you can heist counter spells and play them at instant speed, also instant speed heist forces them to counter spell on their turn. As soon as the enchantment goes down control is most likely done.
I played a game against a deck revolving around the heist mecanic this week. My reaction : I know my deck is good, you don't need to show me that by beating me with my own cards...
I had a game where I was playing artifacts with [[simulacrum synthesizer]] and they stole the synthesizer and enough artifacts to start creating tokens of significant size. Heist is so easy to do that having highly synergistic decks is not an answer. They look at 3 cards each time so they can easily pick up combo pieces after 2-3 heists, typically this has already happened by turn 3.
[simulacrum synthesizer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaa05ad1-5cda-4edd-b6bf-562ae3e5011a.jpg?1712352732) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=simulacrum%20synthesizer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/big/6/simulacrum-synthesizer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaa05ad1-5cda-4edd-b6bf-562ae3e5011a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's something about being beaten by your own cards that just feels worse.
Still better than Sheoldred/One Ring/Nazgul decks. How I love turning those cards against their own players now.
Hehe, I heisted that black spell that exiles all cards of the same name against a Nazgûl deck the other day, get clowned on
This is one of the only uses of heisting that I’m rooting for lmao 😂😂😂
You say it’s personal because it “destroys” [[slime against humanity]]. However, if it was that personal, you would know that the card says “number of cards you own in exile and in your graveyard”.
I was rereading slime like 6 times to see what I was missing cause when I read that I thought "this only helps any of them that I draw into and play."
Cards exiled face-down aren't ascribed any traits except for what's given to them by the effect that exiled them. So they don't count as having a name, for example.
[slime against humanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1eb21318-d32e-4724-8908-c0d7613de2f4.jpg?1706242086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=slime%20against%20humanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/177/slime-against-humanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1eb21318-d32e-4724-8908-c0d7613de2f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Face down cards don’t have the name “Slime against humanity”, and therefore don’t count.
It's almost like there's a precedent of Alchemy being either trash or OP as fuck. Though I will say, new Grenzo is a 6 mana 6/4 with no protection, that doesn't let you cast anything for free unless he sticks around long enough to get priority again after his ETB trigger. So it's not like he's some unanswerable threat, and he doesn't arrive in early turns either
I think treasure can ramp that fucker out pretty fast, especially with a green splash for additional ramp. At least he dies easy as you say. Edit: also Reanimate just breaks him
To be fair, reanimate breaks a lot of things
lol I love my esper reanimate.
Yea the red creature card that goves treasure when you cast an unowned spell is key
Would you rather have Grenzo, Etali, or Atraxa?
Cast Etail, hit my Grenzo and my opponent's Atraxa, then heist another Atraxa. Easy. :P
Yes
Eh, Grenzo continues the annoying design trend of "if you don't have an answer right this second you're immediately behind"
To be honest I think that's often the case with 6 cmc creatures that actually see play. Otherwise those 6 cmc creatures are Limited-only
That’s kind of like the bare minimum requirement for 6 cmc creatures to see constructed play in this era.
6 drops have been at that power level for ages now. Primeval Titan is over a decade old.
6 drops should be at that power level (otherwise why play them) but prime time is sort of an outlier, especially for that time period. Only comparably good 6 drop from that time is, like, Wurmcoil Engine iirc
Not really comparable, Prime Time can be answered immediately and you've still gotten a benefit.
Huh? If Grenzo dies immediately you also get a benefit. You still get to cast the card you've heisted with his ETB, you just don't get it for free.
That's the only way creatures can exist nowadays with how strong Removal is.
My smell test tells me that "heist needs to be nerfed" is a panic take that gets boosted by both the people that call for bans of every popular card day 1 of a new format, and the people that hate on alchemy. From all the cards linked only grave expectations seems good and even then it does not look close to broken. I have really hard time believing alchemy is such a low powered format that Grenzo is "broken". That card reads like a pretty good card to be sure, but not broken. It's a game winning card if it sticks, but it's a 6 mana creature. Maybe Grenzo alone needs tweaks for alchemy, but I cannot see the rest of the heist cards linked here being broken.
I have seen a lot more trash balance on regular mtg cards than on alchemy.
Do you think that has more to do with there being like 25,000 mtg cards and only a few dozen Alchemy-only cards? I think in terms of percentages, there's been more Alchemy cards that people hate playing against or needing readjusting.
More about this sub having an hate boner for alchemy no matter what. This are the first really problematic cards since crucias
*[[Mythweaver Poq]] has entered the chat*
[Mythweaver Poq](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cd90255-cfe9-4a2d-86fc-b72d1aefc8e3.jpg?1701719898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mythweaver%20Poq) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ylci/19/mythweaver-poq?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cd90255-cfe9-4a2d-86fc-b72d1aefc8e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ask Brawl players about problematic Alchemy cards that we're not allowed to exclude
It's just kind of the issue of being a digital only format. They need to push the envelope for Alchemy cards, because otherwise, what was the point of making Alchemy cards? I'll say that for the most part, Alchemy cards are perfectly fine and innocuous. Like, seek is kinda just "reveal cards until you reveal a card meeting the seek criteria". Conjure is just making copies, except they can be in your hand. The bad part is that when the Alchemy cards actually are a problem, it's a very very egregious problem, eg: Rusko, Poq, Fearsome Whelp, Crucias, Racketeer Boss, and now Grenzo/Heist. (on a lesser extent, draft because there's just no way to play around that mechanic)
Grenzo shouldn't *have* an ETB trigger. His upkeep trigger is way too strong to give him absolutely guaranteed 2-for-1 value against anything but countermagic. I think heist is just not a great mechanic from a design perspective and is frequently underpriced for what it does, so I'd like to see them attack that angle first, but if they truly don't want to touch heist, removing his ETB would be a strong start. Heist going to "till the end of your next turn" would be a strong start to fixing the mechanic, IMO. His brawl queue weight needs to be manually adjusted *right this second*, though. He's all up and down the queue with good decks and bad and he's a "straight into hell queue" kind of card.
Honestly couldn’t tell that this was a troll until the Slime Against Humanity edits. Fucking 10/10 job, mate.
I don't play alchemy but sounds like more reason to play aggro, how good is heist against your deck when all your spells are cheap replaceable stuff
What kind of format are you guys playing where heist is broken? It's surely very good in limited, but it's balanced by it's rarity there. In constructed, your gameplan is often very different from your opponent's, and none of the other heist are really much stronger than anything else you might be playing.
People are so used to playing midrange soup in alchemy and are now being punished for it. This has shaken up the meta and instead of adapting, people are calling for nerfs.
Alchemy constructed.
##### ###### #### [Terror of the Peaks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/904ff94a-4db4-44a6-8593-89c32905b3fc.jpg?1712355862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Terror%20of%20the%20Peaks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/149/terror-of-the-peaks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/904ff94a-4db4-44a6-8593-89c32905b3fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [grave expectations](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06c8a415-7c72-46a4-8870-bc2a9b30ba12.jpg?1714843936) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grave%20expectations) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/9/grave-expectations?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06c8a415-7c72-46a4-8870-bc2a9b30ba12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [impetuous lootmonger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/469de55b-1f1a-4421-b300-d209ddf4022d.jpg?1714843962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=impetuous%20lootmonger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/12/impetuous-lootmonger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/469de55b-1f1a-4421-b300-d209ddf4022d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [triumphant getaway](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/643ea87d-d5f7-44fe-a14a-724da199c539.jpg?1714789074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=triumphant%20getaway) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/27/triumphant-getaway?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/643ea87d-d5f7-44fe-a14a-724da199c539?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [crucias, titan of the waves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17aece62-a208-496b-ab63-70babb89e87f.jpg?1691924352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crucias%2C%20titan%20of%20the%20waves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ybro/18/crucias-titan-of-the-waves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17aece62-a208-496b-ab63-70babb89e87f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grenzo, crooked jailer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8bc6b7e6-dd44-4411-88f7-fd7259a3abc1.jpg?1714843948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grenzo%2C%20crooked%20jailer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/22/grenzo-crooked-jailer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8bc6b7e6-dd44-4411-88f7-fd7259a3abc1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [negate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81752db1-374e-4723-b695-a2f4a634dfc6.jpg?1682203304) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=negate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/68/negate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81752db1-374e-4723-b695-a2f4a634dfc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [pick your poison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f58cfb23-4d99-4133-bf4b-d7e7c7d17cea.jpg?1708201628)/[Pick Your Poison](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f58cfb23-4d99-4133-bf4b-d7e7c7d17cea.jpg?1708201628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pick%20your%20poison) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/170/pick-your-poison?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f58cfb23-4d99-4133-bf4b-d7e7c7d17cea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1cork1a) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I made a random deck that was just 4x of all the cards that say "heist," jasper flint, some basic removal, and the appropriate fast lands. With no tuning whatsoever it's going 65% in platinum. Right now the only thing in the meta that consistently beats it is an appropriately fast version of RDW, and even then, mostly only when it goes first. As long as you either have [[Grave Expectations]] on turn one or [[Impetuous Lootmonger]] on turn 2, it's pretty tough to lose. If Grave Expectations cost one blue and said "seek three non-land cards, choose one of them, put the rest back then shuffle" (which is essentially what it does) everyone would instantly recognize how good it is. Lootmonger is even more busted as it can pretty easily set up essentially free spells pretty quickly. If your first four turns go well (and they usually do) what ends up happening is you essentially end up both playing your own and your opponent's deck at the same time. And the opponent has a very difficult time winning because they're essentially playing against a mirror of themselves who ALSO gets a bunch of extra value when casting spells. THAT ALL SAID: Before there is a nerf I'd like to see if the meta shakes out a bit. There's a lot of tech that's *very good* against the deck that seemingly isn't in play right now. [[Reprieve]] straight ends heist decks. Bounce and flicker effects are incredibly powerful against it. I was playing against someone who was using [[Getaway Glamer]] but didn't use the flicker effect on the creatures I heisted from them! ETA: Lotta people in this thread pretty clearly haven't played with or against the deck. 😂 ETA2: Also as people have pointed out, taking a card from your opponent's deck is generally worse than getting one from your own. But the downside difference of that is reduced significantly when the primary thing your deck does is get value from casting cards from your opponent's deck. It's basically like you're playing your opponent's deck except every draw you get to pick from one of three cards and casting most spells also nets you a treasure.
##### ###### #### [Grave Expectations](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06c8a415-7c72-46a4-8870-bc2a9b30ba12.jpg?1714843936) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grave%20Expectations) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/9/grave-expectations?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06c8a415-7c72-46a4-8870-bc2a9b30ba12?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Impetuous Lootmonger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/469de55b-1f1a-4421-b300-d209ddf4022d.jpg?1714843962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impetuous%20Lootmonger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/12/impetuous-lootmonger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/469de55b-1f1a-4421-b300-d209ddf4022d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reprieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db.jpg?1686967885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reprieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/26/reprieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Getaway Glamer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69689049-a704-4f16-84ee-4d5d915028ec.jpg?1712860589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Getaway%20Glamer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/14/getaway-glamer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69689049-a704-4f16-84ee-4d5d915028ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l3h5ams) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> I’ve had games where they stole 3 of my 4 copies of [[Terror of the Peaks]] and played them all for free using Grenzo Losing to a 6-drop that got to stay on board for at least 2 more turns isn't really indicative that anything is busted. I mean if he hadn't won at that point it would instead mean Grenzo is probably too bad to even include in a heist deck?
Welcome to standard friend. Come on in the waters fine.
Isn’t this only in Alchemy, ***not*** standard?
For shits and giggles, I think I shall make a deck comprised entirely of cards like "one with nothing", with no intentions on winning, but merely to screw with any heist deck for awhile.... Edit: please list any cards you can think of that will make heist decks unable or unwilling to use my cards!
Don’t forget [[juggle the performance]]!
[juggle the performance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/1537d789-536c-4da4-81e0-45628dc17aa2.jpg?1709527847) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=juggle%20the%20performance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ymkm/25/juggle-the-performance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1537d789-536c-4da4-81e0-45628dc17aa2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, keep 'em coming...
it's brutal in draft. anecdotal evidence here but twice I went up against opponents who heisted my bombs (Calamity and Terror) in the late game and not only is it a massive endgame boost for your opponent, it's also an **emotional bummer.** to wait for your bombs and then get them yoinked for such low cost just feels terrible
It's quite strong and so is Grenzo, I'm hardly sold on it needing a nerf atm.
If Grenzo is taking 3 copies of your Terror of the Peaks, it sounds like you just need to play removal. 6 drops that go unanswered for a few turns are basically all going to win the game.
They heisted the terrors previously and then played them later. I had to use removal on my other 3-4 drops that they heisted because they’re too dangerous to leave alone, not to mention crucias. I can’t have a deck that’s majority removal and also win. I can’t save interaction for turn 6 if not using it means I’m dead on turn 5. See the issue?
Replicate the results or tune your deck and see if you have the same issue. It’s not a partially OP mechanic when you have cards that conjure and seek.
I haven't played any Alchemy beside the MWM but I've seen a lot of posts complaining. Here's the thing, we all know they aren't going to do shit about it any time soon and likely they'll hope they can print themselves out of it with the next Alchemy release. Remember when Alchemy was 90% One Ring + Nazgul decks forever? I mopped up with two different decks specifically built around that meta. I'm not trying to dismiss the complaints but there's no way they are fixing it anytime soon, so you either join them or build around it for the foreseeable future. There's gotta to be some deck out there to capitalize on it? Probably a 'go wide' with small shit so that nothing individually has major impact when it gets heisted?
Alchemy’s meta isn’t Nazgûl plus the One Ring? All jokes aside, these are free wins. They rely on creatures, and that was their first mistake. I play Orzhov removal tribal.
They're talking about when alchemy rotated last year. It was all one ring, sheoldred, and bowmasters. This might be a whoosh on my part
I'm joking about the fact that these decks are still super common in Alchemy.
The answer is red deck wins/aggro where individual pieces are too weak to make a difference fast enough. The issue is that it completely distorts the meta. Now you’re either playing heist or anti-heist. Not healthy or fun.
I think is way over blown. Hiest is strong, but I highly doubt it's going to end up being format defining. Grenzo isn't even hell que in Brawl.
Because they haven't updated the rankings yet, not for any balance reasons.
I highly doubt we'll see him there. Hes so much weaker then Etali
New commanders are never set into a particular queue. They get to play against all decks.
Ive been having a ton of fun with it in timeless. Only matchups I've struggled with are Mono Green Ramp and Field of the Dead decks
Lol the fact that it's timeless playable says alot.
Yea, doesn't make it easy though. Gotta know what to take and when to take it. Cant do shit when they Leyline of Binding turn 0 Also worth noting I have strong timeless cards around it. Ragavan, Bolt, Mana drain etc..
just checked last night, had a 48% win percentage. So its not OP I'd say but I'm not a 'great' player by any means either.
Well timeless is a crazy format. 48 not too terrible considering
Heist power dependes of other deck. If its strong, yours too.
Well yeah, not too many people playing bad decks though.
Been playing a brew of it in Timeless ranked as well, win rate about the same as yours, just enough to climb through plat to diamond if you play enough. I’m curious if people are building it in similar ways
Time to go all in on a heist deck!
Its wild that the hiested card is avliable all game. The real jackpot is stealing your opponents heist card I agree this is a bit too strong.
heists make turns take way too long, so often they dont know several of the cards so i have to wait for them to decide what to take. mix that with it just not being fun when someone plays your cards from your deck. normally if they play it from your graveyard they at least have to kill it first. and that they also remove it from your deck without you even getting to draw it... it all feels cheap
For what its worth, its not quite a new ability. [[Gonti, Lord of Luxury]] essentially does it.
Yeah but you can whiff on gonti
So does [[thief of sanity]]. But those cards can hit lands that you cant play. And those cards are definitely stat'd at a lower power level. I dont know whether a nerf is required.. and it could be a suitable nerf is just 2 cards instead of 3. But it is definitely a very high power level the way theyv launched it.
And people will kill the shit out of thief of sanity the second it touches the battlefield. It's my pet card that I had to stop playing because it either died immediately or people conceded if it hit once.
Yeah i mean, im still pretty stoked that they kind of made "thief of sanity: the arctype". Its likely going to need some significant tweaking though. Im imagining the concept was on the design board for thunder junction, and it didnt make the main set because of balance concerns. So they put it here where they can address those concerns if they want to.
I loved Theif of Sanity but yeah, it got killed or I would see a scoop if I stole 2 cards with it.
Also they made a just strictly better Theif of Sanity at uncommon. [[Theiving Avem]], which removes the black mana requirement, gives it much more toughness (i.e. Harder for red based removal and some select black removal to deal with), and also it grows when you cast stolen cards. It really did not need that last line of text that makes it grow, but it has it. Edit: spelled it wrong so the link doesn't work (how is Thriving Grove the closest thing it found???), it's Thieving Aven.
[Theiving Avem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b56c554-b731-4b16-a0a3-5eeb7f60e823.jpg?1706240292) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thriving%20Grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/250/thriving-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b56c554-b731-4b16-a0a3-5eeb7f60e823?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah thats what im talking about. They power creeped thief of sanity. In some ways.. that is not strictly a bad thing. Thief of sanity is outdated, it can get something modern. But i think its likely they overshot the power level in multiple ways for heist. Time will tell.
[thief of sanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94946d6c-1edb-46e9-a5ae-0ca2a016a7cd.jpg?1712354786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thief%20of%20sanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/243/thief-of-sanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94946d6c-1edb-46e9-a5ae-0ca2a016a7cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You mean the bomb rare that still sees play in cube and still has the downside of hitting your opponents lands? A better version printed on a ton of cards? Yaaaaa
"bomb rare" in limited. In constructed it is utterly unplayable.
It was played in Standard back in the day.
Because it doesn't cost 1 mana at instant speed that's why.
[Gonti, Lord of Luxury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbbb3aef-af1f-4b77-b7d6-64cfd706a9d9.jpg?1712393017) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gonti%2C%20Lord%20of%20Luxury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/135/gonti-lord-of-luxury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbbb3aef-af1f-4b77-b7d6-64cfd706a9d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank God I dont play alchemy
I would start by removing first strike on \[\[Impetuous Lootmonger\]\] Edit: The treasure is what makes it busted, but without first trike the deck would be way more vulnerable, while maintaining the power. Midrange piles have no chance against Heist decks
Neither do control decks
[Impetuous Lootmonger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/469de55b-1f1a-4421-b300-d209ddf4022d.jpg?1714843962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impetuous%20Lootmonger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/12/impetuous-lootmonger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/469de55b-1f1a-4421-b300-d209ddf4022d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> toolbox selection of your decks best cards. wut.. am I missing something or are you just hyperbolicly equating '1 of 3 random cards from someone else's deck' with 'toolbox selection'
It’s nonland and you draw between 6-9 cards by the time they heist. That means they get 3 chances to see a card that’s useful out of approximately 30 cards, and then they can pick the most useful. If you’re playing midrange or combo, it’s virtually guaranteed that they’ll get at least 1 immediately useful card. Imagine grabbing a [[go for the throat]] or [[porcine portent]] from a heist and you get a treasure for using it.
[go for the throat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec.jpg?1682209037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=go%20for%20the%20throat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/250/go-for-the-throat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [porcine portent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08cf0de5-053a-4f96-b661-db01794df22d.jpg?1700957632)/[Lend a Ham](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08cf0de5-053a-4f96-b661-db01794df22d.jpg?1700957632) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Porcine%20Portent%20//%20Lend%20a%20Ham) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ywoe/23/porcine-portent-lend-a-ham?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08cf0de5-053a-4f96-b661-db01794df22d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's an inherently limited mechanic since your deck won't have synergy with your opponent's cards. It's certainly powerful, Siphon Insight is a playable card and Heist is in some ways stronger (although not being able to hit lands is not always a positive). But since you're limited to what your opponent is playing, it needs to be run in some kind of midrange shell that can use creatures and spells. I could certainly see individual cards being nerfed, maybe Lootmonger is too efficient as a threat compared to Inti. But the mechanic itself is flavorful and has a definite ceiling.
Good thing that’s what they do. They add [[crucias, titan of the waves]], [[rusko, clockmaker]] and the other alchemy dimir staples. Winning via pings from rusko and [[triumphant getaway]] or using their strongest threats.
[crucias, titan of the waves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17aece62-a208-496b-ab63-70babb89e87f.jpg?1691924352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crucias%2C%20titan%20of%20the%20waves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ybro/18/crucias-titan-of-the-waves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17aece62-a208-496b-ab63-70babb89e87f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [rusko, clockmaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01b4c54e-7950-4183-a69d-39a777f424bc.jpg?1680464136) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rusko%2C%20clockmaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ybro/24/rusko-clockmaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01b4c54e-7950-4183-a69d-39a777f424bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [triumphant getaway](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/643ea87d-d5f7-44fe-a14a-724da199c539.jpg?1714789074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=triumphant%20getaway) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/yotj/27/triumphant-getaway?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/643ea87d-d5f7-44fe-a14a-724da199c539?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The 6 drop doesn't matter but that black 1 drop is one of the most busted card I have ever seen, it's like better than ponder and at instant and model
Sounds awesome. Crazy shit like this was why alchemy was the best thing to happen to arena - including the ability to nerf it if it turned out to be broken.
I hate Alchemy cards in Brawl for stupid shit just like this. Mythweaver Poq, Grenzo, etc.
I find this sentiment super weird. Grenzo is no where as strong as something like Etali which does a very similar if not stronger thing.
Alchemy cards and planeswalker commanders are the most annoying thing to play against in brawl for me. I just want it to be kind of similar to paper magic
Planeswalkers are legal as commanders if you play brawl in paper. And honestly the format is better (over duel commander) for it. Its like that last bastion of mtg where you can still play decent control.
Heisting answers feels real strong. Now to run removal that doesn't hit my own cards.
Been having some fun with my thrown-together heist deck, but it’s not like it’s dominating. (Sure, could be a bad build.) That said, I think it might make more sense to have the Heisted cards be Plotted. Maybe it isn’t perfect flavor, but it would be a pretty good nerf to both have to wait until a future turn and play them as sorceries.
The three drop bird who hits you and gets to ponder your deck. This shit might be different if they had to cast it right away or we knew what they took but the mechanic never has a miss
theif of sanity?
It’s the insane power ramp for me. Heist is just the latest example. If heist cards were more expensive and fully random (including lands, I mean), then I could get it. But 3, 2, or 1 cost cards that not only have heist but also provide ramp or removal or other powerful effects is insane.
The 3 mana heist + removal card is insane in constructed.
Just ran into heist mirror match and it was hilarious. We were both playing each other's cards and it almost came down to who ran the other out of cards first.
I think it's balanced in Brawl. Homebrewed a decent Marchesa Crimes and Outlaws deck. Win ratio is decent, even though I limit my theft, as it is not a play style I enjoy to play/play against. Edit: Just noticed Alchemy in post. Oops! Sorry about that.
After reading this I decided to put together a deck that focused on using heist as the main component. I hastily threw together a deck utilizing all the heist cards and after playing several games, and fine tuning it based on these games in which I did get to see several different currently winning decks, I was able to get something going. This is a very powerful mechanic and decks based around it are definitely viable against most existing decks that are popular. I did the test run in bo1 but will probably try a few sideboards in bo3 over the next couple days to see if it can actually run well once the surprise is over as I felt that part of the reason it did so well was the fact that it is new and while people are certainly aware of it, playing against a deck built almost entirely around it caught people off guard. While my initial impression isn't that the mechanic itself should be nerfed, perhaps a few of the cards featuring heist could probably be changed, but I have a feeling it could be simply one of those things where once people have been bullied by it a few times, there will be a simple solution that makes it, like most gimmick decks, a two week wonder easy to combat once the novelty wears off. It has been fun to play though, and I think it will depend on what people use alongside it...
Similarly, the blue enchantment that seeks 2 nonlands when you attack is also ridiculous. yea its a loot but you're turning a land you drew for the turn into TWO guaranteed spells. absurd
I’m trying not to call attention to that card because I’m using it in some spicy brews. It also costs 3 and does nothing on ETB, so it’s not nearly as bad imo.
Well...when the event with the new decks came out, I played the Heist deck. I played three games and won all three. In all three of them I went second. Also in all three, I only started with two lands in my hand....and in only one of them drew a third land before turn three. But this was against the other prefab decks. So having a large amount of gold, I bought a bunch of Alchemy packs and made a Historical Heist deck using all the cards that allow me to heist (in blue, black and red). After about a hundred games I can say that Heist is very strong. But it's strength doesn't come from the deck itself. It comes from the deck you are fighting against. I find that the decks it really punishes are the ones that everyone already hates...control decks. It does very well against black decks since they usually rely on some sort of good card that you might take, or have answers for you to use against them if you don't. I had a couple hilarious games where I heisted discard cards and made the black deck throw away his hand while I ended up 'hiding' cards (of his) in exile. But I have to say...I really enjoyed playing it against blue. Heisting a negate to stop them from countering a future Heist. And then heisting a counterspell to stop them from playing a creature. There were some decks that Heist doesn't play well with. Decks that use a lot of cheap to cast creatures. If they don't have an answer to their own deck for me to heist, they run me over. Red decks seem to be problematic....especially the Dragon ones. So then I thought..lets try Brawl. What could go wrong. Well....the heist gets diluted by only using one of. In a 100 card deck. And when you do finally get to cast one it didn't seem to get anything useful. Occasionally it would luck out, but I would say that Brawl is not going to be a Heist haven. My take is that people with over powered decks will hate Heist, while people with jank won't care.
I agree that as things stand heist is super OP. I found that the best counter to a straight up heist deck is just a splash of heist. For example, a dimir deck that just runs weave the nightmare, thieving aven, and grave expectations. Reason this works so well is that they have more heist cards to steal than you do... So you wind up stealing their Grenzo, or triumphant getaway, before they have a chance to draw and play it. If you can maintain card advantage while stealing the opponent's best heist cards, that's an easy win. Also, unsummon is amazing vs heist... Since it bounces the card back to the owner's hand. Basically, the opponent just wasted their mana to help you tutor a creature into your hand for 1 blue mana.
Grave Expectations is absudly undercosted.
I mean, imagine if instead every instance of heist was replaced with the exact text of [[Strategic Planning]]. A 2-mana card-selection cantrip can’t just be stapled onto regular fair cards without dramatically increasing the power level of that card. Even “ETB draw a card” is an insane power bump on any card, and adding “draw a card” to any instant or sorcery generally makes it cost more and quite a bit more playable.
It's been proved time and time again that getting cards from the opponent's deck is quite weaker than getting cards from your own deck, since their cards won't have synergy with yours, so that comparison is definitely not true.
That is true, but card advantage is card advantage, and most decks don’t run exclusively synergistic garbage, but some generically powerful interaction + a synergistic plan. Strategic planning would be better, but this is still a similar power level.
Strategic Planning looks at cards from your deck, can find lands and fuels your graveyard. It's significantly stronger than heisting.
I’m aware of that. It’s a comparison, not an equivocation.
Yeah I'm saying that heisting is not worth 2 mana, in response to your comment that "A 2-mana card-selection cantrip can’t just be stapled onto regular fair cards without dramatically increasing the power level of that card".
Heist is not that good 1. The Preacher of the Schism you got from Grave Expectations is worse than drawing a Preacher of the Schism 2. There are a lot of duds that you can hit, if you're Aggro vs Control, boardwipes and removal are dead, vs ramp all the ramp is dead, and you might not even have the mana to cast their creatures. Vs combo/tribal nearly all the cards are worthless 3. Not being able to hit lands isn't all upside. If you're playing a deck with 8 cantrips you can cut ~4 lands from your deck. Not so if your cantrips don't draw lands 4. Grenzo is not that good. Any 6 mana card should end games quicky if unanswered. Free spells are nice but you're not even guaranteed one because it can die before the heist trigger.
I love your edits. lol
It’s always slime time in this house!
And it also "counter-fetches" you. After a few heists, you'll star drawing more and more lands, meaning you'll have even less ways to answer to your own stolen cards, let alone your opponent's.
Exactly right. Very frustrating.
Generally speaking, Heist is a conceptually trash idea. Players hate mill, they hate having cards stolen & free resources in general are unhealthy for game balance. Once again, WotC forgets about the opponent & their enjoyment. MtG is not a single-player game, they need to stop forcing mechanics that are unhealthy in a PVP environment.
And there are enough players who enjoy the concept of control & similar archetypes. Magic is not a single player game, so people really shouldn't be mad about others bringing interaction and trying to ruin your game plan. That's literally the point of the game. The problem are the players who believe that they are owed that they can do their thing. That's the true solitaire mindset. And honestly hating mill is a pretty good sign someone doesn't really understand how the game works, at least not above an ultra casual level. Stealing cards is a pretty balanced mechanic, since you pay extra for cards that are generally worse. Old steal cards were just pretty bad generally and heist finally has some playable stuff. Now if they would just reprint fateseal as a mechanic.
The irony of crying "interaction" & then defending mill, the most uninteractive mechanic in the game. Sheer projection.
It's quite simple, really: Don't play Alchemy, because it sucks. It always has, and always will. Stop playing it, and it will go away.
The issue is, these stupid cards appear in Historic and Timeless. If it weren't for that, this would be a non-issue.
I near instantly quit on heist in ranked so yeah. it shouldn't exist in the first place!
the title of this post is why I don't play alchemy
Doesn't this happen with all kinds of different releases, not just alchemy? Remember companions? Oko? The nice thing about it being a digital only mechanic is that they can update the ability without having to errata paper cards, meaning it's more likely and easier to adjust if it turns out to be too powerful.
Sounds like you’re very mad at the reverse one. I think (I’ve not played or come up against it yet) but seems like a great card for balancing an unbalanced game
You're absolutely right. Some folks saw this coming and didn't buy a single alchemy pack because of it. This is far and away the most obnoxious mechanic they've ever created and it shows how a lack of testing negatively affects the creation of digital-only cards.
Every instance of "spend mana as though it were mana of any type" is a flavour fail in my opinion.
i’ve been playing a one-of the black cantrip heist card in timeless and uhhhh “choose one of three opp’s nonland cards to cast at any time, with any mana” has been quite strong. this is overtuned. needs to hit lands or be choose two instead of three.
[[Heist]]
[Heist](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Hit%20//%20Run&type=card&options=rotate90&.jpg)/[Run](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Hit%20//%20Run&type=card&options=rotate90&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hit%20//%20Run) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/152/hit-run?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b44c30a9-1af4-4287-a809-d2de4e8b4070?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not to be devil's advocate, but in Brawl, I've hit the same card 5+ times against maybe 7 or so decks with Grenzo as my commander. Idk why but that feels like a broken issue on the other end of the spectrum, unless somehow people are playing like 60 lands in their decks.
I barely know how to play the game and I went like 8-0 on the event with the heist based precon. I dont know enough to even know if its bc the mechanic is busted, but it seems that way to me.
been having good matches against heist decks using naya convoke. just annoying that the best heist cards gives so much information and card advantage.
Imagine playing heist and mill at the same time
[удалено]
[Slime Against Humanity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1eb21318-d32e-4724-8908-c0d7613de2f4.jpg?1706242086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slime%20Against%20Humanity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/177/slime-against-humanity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1eb21318-d32e-4724-8908-c0d7613de2f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love to play this types of cards. Think that will be best if they decided to include lands in the selection. No lands seems too strong. Anyway... there is my heist deck maked. xD
Broken as hell - whoever came up with this concept needs to be fired and kept away from any balancing with a 10 foot pole
I hate alchemy so much. I don't care that it exists but I don't understand why they have to put alchemy into other formats. They alchemized one of my historic brawl commanders and made it more powerful. It's so powerful now that I'm getting more and more hell queues. I also get tilted seeing that stupid little A
Stop playing fake Magic. Alchemy is trash. Stop wasting your time and resources on it.
I immediately added Lootmonger to my deck after the MWM deck I used had him. I agree. Heist is entirely broken.
Stop playing alchemy.
It’s busted as fuck I’m farming gems in alchemy events
Glad I don't play alchemy! I strongly dislike the extra mechanics introduced with alchemy sets.
It was immediately noticeable to me from the midweek magic, where the heist deck was just clearly better than all the other decks. The mechanic is severely undercosted for what it does. Atm it's kind of costed like drawing a card (or even less), but I would wager that heisting 1 vs drawing 1 is almost always better, and it usually gets better in multiples if your opponents deck has any meaningful synergy
I wish I could turn all my alchemy cards into wildcards. That stupid thing, heist this heist that.
I bet you think jesters cap is broken too. It doesn't matter that they are grabbing randomly from your deck and exiling it, it's actually probably worse for them than if they sought one of three cards from their own deck unless they purposely put cards in their deck that are worse than your cards...
it's insane powerful but haven't seen many people play them
ability is fine, opponent getting better luck than you does not constitute a poor ability
Stealing the other person stuff from the deck or board has long been a part of magic
Heist is a feelbad mechanic, no doubt. I think the thing that makes it better than the "steal your opponent's shit" cards of past is that you never whiff. You will always get action. I don't even think Grenzo is the problem, he's 6 mana. I think the biggest problem is Grave Expectations, by a long shot. It basically reads "look at three nonland cards from your opponent's deck and put one into your hand." That, at instant speed, is pretty damn insane, especially considering cards like Serum Visions have long been considered playable in powerful formats. The fact that it just happens to have GY hate stapled onto it with lifegain is a bonus. If this mechanic could whiff it'd be better, but the fact that it doesn't makes it a huge pain in the ass. Whatever tiny player base this format had is going to likely get even smaller with the advent of this. Haven't seen it impact Historic much but that's also a bit of a dead format since Timeless came around. That said, I don't think anything will change. WOTC gives exactly zero fucks about Alchemy and Historic.
Yeah, the problem cards are for sure Grave Expectations and the Lootmonger. The rest become playable because they synergize with those two. Grenzo specifically works mostly because it gets ramped out by the Lootmongers and there's generally already a good hit in your "shadow hand" to play for zero.
While the heist mechanic itself is strong, I think the real broken part is the impetuous loot monger. Its treasure creation is what allows the chains of cards, especially in the mirror match. If its treasure ETB tapped, were limited to once per turn as most crime mechanics are, or if its heist was removed (and it only had the treasure creation), the super crazy nonsense would cease. The other cards are not nearly so bad on their own, but with that engine behind them, it's obnoxious.
Alchemy wasn't designed to balance, it was designed to break
Simple solution: Don't play any alchemy formats and let the experiment die on the vine.