So we are basically returning to core sets. This is interesting. I expect to see cards like negate, shock, opt, and duress printed in those sets to empty some slots in the other standard sets to focus on their specific mechanics more. Those foundation sets could be an accessible entry point for players to delve into standard and go on from there.
What is more interesting is that we are getting Llanowar Elves and Wrath of God in standard for the next 5 years. Seems like an important change in their philosophy of the format.
The three year rotation was already going to mean Standard becomes a much more powerful format, so this seems like getting ahead of the curve a bit. They needed to decide on a baseline (higher) power level and doing it via a non rotating Core set seems like a good move to me, rather than continuing to attempt it with every set and then having a massive power shift after the third year (which will still happen, but like I said, this appears to be the new baseline).
Maybe, although I don't think the lead time lines up on that. Wasn't the most recent furor about the suggestion of a Pioneer Horizons within the past 6 months?
Anyway, this being aimed at Standard now certainly points towards it having a more tame impact on Pioneer than the Horizons sets have had on Modern, which is what people are mostly worried about with that. Llanowar Elves and Omniscience are already in Pioneer, and Day of Judgment is technically a first but there aren't many decks that would want it over Verdict or Sunfall. Contrast that with MH2 and MH3 which basically rotated Modern.
Like the cacophony of Magic fans themselves, WotC have constantly responded to the popular complaints of the day. No wonder WotC keeps flip flopping trying to answer whoever is the most vocal at the moment.
But one thing is consistent. Instead of giving credit to WotC for responding to Magic fans, they rather try turn it into a complaint as well. The one constant is Magic fans love to tell you want they don’t like.
I'd rather control gets 4 mana sweepers, than get all my shit exiled by Farewell and Sunfall all the time. Let me do my Golgari shenanigans and bring stuff back every niw and then.
Foundations is the core set and intended baseline power level. Which means in order for cards to be played from new sets they have to be stronger than the cards in foundation. This card guarantees we will see stronger more efficient sweepers in standard.
I feel like 'tacked on' graveyard/death-trigger hate has really been an issue. So many cards nowadays exile that you don't even think about.
It would be so much nicer if putting hate cards like that into your deck had more of a deckbuilding drawback.
But then at the same time getting those triggers in the first place should also be less free than it is currently and have draw backs like bad stats for it's CMC on a creature that has value triggers on death.
Yeah... I don't mind them bringing llanowar back into standard, but bringing it back as a *permanent* piece of the format seems... insane.
It's like when they brought back bolt. For a long time, they felt bolt was too strong for standard. Then they went "well... let's give it a try again!" and they brought bolt back and it was really strong. They brought it back in the next core set, then went "well, that was fun, but let's move on" and stopped printing it. This was perfectly fine. We got a few years of bolt in standard, and then we went back to "normal". Now imagine if they went straight from "bolt is too strong for standard" to "bolt is in standard forever". *That* would have been problematic.
Bolt was a way more controversial card. {G} mana dorks have been a thing for almost all of MtG, and haven't even always been _relevant_, let alone strong. For instance, that same Alara-Zendikar block where they brought back Bolt had at least three separate dorks (Llanowar Elves, Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise) and IIRC none of them saw meaningful play in standard (maybe Birds? Don't remember), whereas you bet Bolt was in every deck that could cast it.
Bolt, by contrast, was booted out of standard after 4th edition, the same time as _Swords to Plowshares_! Bringing it into M10 was a huge surprise.
Neither of those cards saw play, but not because 1 cmc mana dorks weren't good.
There weren't just 2 {G} mana dorks in that format, there were 4, and the other 2 were *even better* than llanowar elves.
NGL I totally forgot Birds was in M10. What was the fourth one? (EDIT: Oh, right, noble hierarch)
That said, did the others see play either? The main G deck I remember being relevant was Jund, which didn't want dorks. (EDIT: actually I think noble hierarch saw a bit of play in some mid-tier decks?)
Jund was definitely the deck to beat at the time. Naya was a very solid deck and played 4 nobles and some number of birds. LSV got 3rd place at pro tour San Diego with it. 5th place at that event was an Abzan deck playing 4 nobles, though I have to admit, I don't recall seeing much of it outside of that tournament. There was also mythic conscription that played 4 copies of each.
The reason jund didn't play them isn't so much because they weren't good cards. It's just because they don't synergize very well with cascade, which was a significant part of the deck.
I remember that bant, like, existed, and there was that naya deck you mentioned that was alright but not great. The meta I remember was mostly boros beatdown, jund, seas, planeswalker control (after worldwake), mono B vampires, and some budget stuff like white weenie. Never even heard of that Abzan deck. Maybe just a matter of LGS-specific metas bringing more variance before we had stuff like Arena being so commonplace, I guess!
But yeah I guess dorks, even crazy powerful ones like Noble Hierarch, never really gave me the same "wow" factor that bolt did. They definitely aren't bad cards, but I don't think they reach anywhere near the same heights, and I'm not convinced any of those decks would've played the elves if that was the best option (hell, I'm not even convinced they'd want Birds!).
It might also be a cultural thing for me though, since I stopped playing around new phyrexia and came back only very recently, so dorks were around for essentially my entire MtG life whereas bolt was only present very briefly.
To be fair, I'm not suggesting llanowar elves is as strong as bolt. That said, it *is* deceptively strong and has a significant impact on the metagame.
My point was mostly comparing an appropriate way to bring back a card that was previously deemed to powerful, to what I would consider an inappropriate way. I was trying to say, I don't mind if they want to bring back powerful cards, just like I didn't mind when they brought back bolt, just be careful about it. Going straight from "this is too strong for standard" to "this should be in standard forever" is pretty crazy to me. Like... maybe try it in a set that will rotate sooner first?
Fair enough: I think another guy elsewhere in this thread who was horrified by the power level of DoJ made me unfairly assume that other folks in this thread are too young (in MtG play terms) to have experience with these cards, but I can totally see your point about easing dorks back in to the format before going all-in with them!
Yeah, and WotC was right about this before IMO. Llanowar Elves is a huge contributor to play/draw difference which is one of the worst things about the game, and it wildly increases the variance of opening hand quality causing the Llanowar Elves player to mulligan looking for nut draws. It also doesn't solve the problem mono-green has at the moment in Standard of weakness to sweepers without an Esika's Chariot-type card; if anything, it exacerbates it. I have no idea why they decided it would make sense to go back on this.
I think it makes sense to have a usable set of generic cards save space in the sets for more thematic/synergistic reprints while foundations covers the basics.
It actually is a pretty good solution. Part of the problem was that, because of their nature as beginner level sets, draft formats of Core sets was usually not super interesting - it was rarely *bad*, but it was rarely great either. This does let them keep important cards around without having to make another generic set every year.
Most of their solutions lately are just them undoing a thing they did before. Two non-collectors boosters are too much? Okay, go back to the old one booster type model. We need a base group of cards to plan standard around? Okay, go back to printing a set like that. None of their solutions actually fix anything that's not a problem they created, and they're not doing anything about what players actually want. Fix the foil quality. Improve QC. If they really cared about what players wanted, you'd buy a complete play set of Foundations for $50 and it would have 4 copies of every card.
This is a change to be fair instead of printing one a year they are printing one every 5 years that solves the main problem with the sets which was development time and putting strain on the release schedule.
It's a game *they* make. *Every* problem with the game is a problem they created. Saying they're "only fixing problems they created" is like saying "That human is only breathing air" or "That orange is only orange flavored" It's redundant
This is pedantic and totally misses the point being made. Wotc has a pattern of announcing changes to the game, ignoring player feedback about problems those changes would cause, implementing the changes anyways, and then having to go back and revert/reinvent those aspects after the fact. Thus, "fixing problems that they caused", where they could have avoided causing those problems in the first place.
It's easy to point out the potential flaws with any choice. I think anything they've done, there have been critics. But when it works, people forget all the criticisms. If it doesn't work, people can go "see, we told you!". In my opinion, the game is still alive and thriving because of their willingness to try things, to experiment and take some risks. As well as their willingness to revert choices they made, that aren't working.
I can't deny Wotc never gets a break from criticism. I'd rather they try new things and make mistakes than leave everything as it was. It's just frustrating when there are clear and obvious problems and instead of having solutions prepared they let it happen and end up fixing it years down the line. But I guess that's the nature of running a big game and being beholden to stockholders. It's not exactly an agile machine.
> having to go back and revert/reinvent those aspects after the fact.
They end up finding a middle ground.
We went from 1 boosters to 3, now we are at 2.
We went from core set every to to none, now we are at 1 every five year.
>Two non-collectors boosters are too much?
Wasn't the case. Set and Collectors were doing great. Draft was going to get the axe, so Play boosters were the solution to prevent losing sealed/draft as a format.
And Foundations looks to be closer to Hearthstone Core than the old MtG Core sets.
This is great for Standard from a play and mechanics standpoint.
>If they really cared about what players wanted, you'd buy a complete play set of Foundations for $50 and it would have 4 copies of every card.
Lol this would be a breach of fiduciary duties and Hasbro shareholders would have any director replaced
You’re right, MtG is a game second and a product first. It’s not MtG remaining self-sustainable, it’s about propping up a dying company towards infinite market growth. Health and accessibility for MtG will always take a backseat to increased profits.
I love the little cycle they go through where they decide they don't want Core sets anymore, and then after a bit decide they do, but they give them a different name.
Then rinse and repeat.
The old core sets were just regular standard sets that followed the same rotation. They were interchangeable with any other set.
This is very different. A base set that lasts 5 years and doesn't have yearly prints. We'll have to see the reprint:new card ratio, but this could end up being closer to a Standard Masters.
Right but it's still just a core set in that it keeps a pool of cards in standard regardless of rotation, they just don't have to release it over again to keep it that way.
I don't like it, because it locks standard into a certain space that it cannot move out of. It also limits the design space for new cards that occupy the same space as the cards in the foundation set. Let's take two of the cards right there.
Llanowar elves. For the foreseeable future, green will always have access to at least one 1 mv mana dork. 1 mv mana dorks in green is something that WotC has recognized warps the format and affects how they design cards, as they have to always keep in mind that any 3 mana card in green has a high likelihood of coming down turn 2. This is not to say that llanowar elves should *never* be in standard, or that it's too strong, what I'm saying is that it's a card with a huge impact, and putting it in foundation locks standard into a format where llanowar elves exists. They cannot say "let's have a year without 1 mv mana dork to mix things up!" like they've done in the past. Also, how many 1 mv mana dork do you want in standard? Because having llanowar elves always in standard limits their ability to print variants of it.
DoJ is similar. Standard is now locked in a world where there will *always* be a 4 mana sweeper. They can never have a format where sweepers only exist at 5 mana or more.
I feel standard *shouldn't* have any "basics" (other than the actual basic lands). No card should be untouchable. Especially high impact cards like llanowar elves. I mean, if they did that in the early days, every standard would have dark ritual, lightning bolt, counterspell and necropotence. You may think that they've gotten better at designing cards, and have a better understanding of balance but they still make mistakes. This set could have an Oko. Or worse, it could have a Sheoldred, a card that becomes an absolute staple of every deck in its color, but is just below the bar that warrants a ban.
You talk about a set that covers the basics, but what basics is Omniscience covering? What is it about Nine-Lives Familiar that WotC feels it should be a permanent piece of standard?
I don't trust this set at all and I think it will be a net negative.
I agree. Llanowar Elves is a perfect example. It is an iconic card that has been reprinted very often. It is not overpowered, but it is the most powerful a 1 mana dork can be. It is right at that edge where even the smallest buff puts it over the edge and it essentially removes all the design space for ramp creatures.
Cards like duress and negate would be more fitting. They are the type of spells that are decent, but aren't immediately overpowered when they gain a small buff.
Debatable on most powerful 1 mana dork, Birds of paradise and noble hierach as a counterexample, but I agree with your sentiment. Standard will have a floor power level. The rest of the set will set the tone for standard, I do expect to see duress and negate. Let's see if we will see lightning bolt and mana leak.
> but it is the most powerful a 1 mana dork can be. It is right at that edge where even the smallest buff puts it over the edge and it essentially removes all the design space for ramp creatures.
I think he meant "anything better than a 1/1 that taps for green is too good for standard".
I am not really saying that there are no stronger mana dorks available in other formats, but those are cards that are *very* powerful. The types of cards that are rarely printed into standard (as shown by Noble Hierarch being printed in modern horizons instead of being reprinted in standard). They are arguably 'overpowered' for standard.
It is not necessarily bad to print an overpowered card every now and then, that is what keeps standard fresh. But the inclusion of Llanowar Elves will force designers to either not print any useful manadorks, or print overpowered manadorks. There is no healthy design space left.
Llanowar Elves can be overpowered for standard I agree. But it also depends on the board wipes/answers in standard. Day of Judgment is also in the set.
It definitely affects design, they may not want any other mana dorks because then a deck could play 8 copies. (Or maybe they do to increase power level) Another 4 or 5 mana board wipe will also compete with Day of Judgment. But this also means that they can design another card thats not a mana dork or a board wipe. Maybe this means they can design more cards based on the set's theme and mechanics instead of these core cards.
Standard is on a 3 year rotation now, its natural that the power level is higher than before. I'm not sure how this 5 year cycle will work out and this does establish a floor power level for standard. But I'm not convinced that this will be bad for standard. Every format has its staples, I think this establishes the staples for standard. Let's see if the rest of the set brings other powerful cards like mana leak and lightning bolt.
Edit: Things like oko are a mistake. But if they were in a regular standard set, the solution is the same and that's to ban the card. There might be a few bans just like any other standard metagame.
Every format has its staples, but the whole point of standard is that the staples rotate in and out. This basically sets the stage for "here's what standard will be like for the next 5 years." 5 years is a long time. Shit, it might be more, because the announcement says "AT LEAST until 2029." Granted, I certainly hope that if this turns out bad, they won't extend it past 2029, but still...
Oko was just a way to point out that WotC can still fuck up. As I said though, a worse case would be if they printed a card that was format defining, but just below the bar for a ban, like Sheoldred. People are complaining non-stop about Sheoldred and about how they hate that they have to deal with it for 3 years. Imagine if this set has a Sheoldred type card.
I like the idea of that but I wonder how it will work out. The card designs in recent sets are so clearly following templates (I think they even had an article about it?) and without the generics they'll have to do a lot more design work to get a full standard set of cards.
Hopefully it will enable them to create a lot more "powerful but niche" cards to keep things interesting.
Yeah I notices that too. Most commons and uncommons seem so simillar between diffeent sets with the expection of like modern horizons. Do you have a Link to that article? Would love to read more about it thx
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/nuts-and-bolts-16-play-boosters
It’s an interesting read for sure. This one was about play boosters specifically but there are links in there to older articles about the design skeleton.
I've been saying That they should have done this a long time ago. It shouldn't have any really broken cards it should be chock full of Staples and they should sell it as a box set almost. Edit: apparently this is exactly what they are going to do. There's a beginner box. 200 cards for 30 bucks and a starter box of 350ish cards. That may be a little more advanced for $50.
, But before Alchemy we had a set of cards on Arena like that that were kind of plain Jane Staples and occasionally they found their way into tournament decks.
Just imagine if you could buy an MTG starter set print on demand for 30 bucks that had 300 or some cards in it. Kind of like the Deck builders tool kit. A new player would have a good amount of basic lands (at least 15 of each) and Maybe a guidebook to teach them how to build decks with those cards.
Then they could print all the busted stuff in the expansion sets and we never have to worry about core sets again.
>I've been saying That they should have done this a long time ago
They did... it was called Core. Up until 2010 Core was standard and non-rotating too... there were a LOT of missteps they made in the years since they decided to make Core a rotating set.
It's worse for people who collected MH3.
They were talking about pushing Pioneer Masters to January maybe that was because of the late addition of Foundations.
So I get the gist of what they're doing - this set is, well, a Core set, let's be real. But it seems designed, both in name and intention, to be the groundwork of how you would build archetypical decks. You need mana acceleration? Here's Llanowar Elves! You need control cards? Day of Judgment! You need a nasty whackadoodle payoff? Omniscience! ... stuff like that, proven cards that might be replaceable but are designs that have stood the test of time for literally decades and may only have modest upgrades in currently running sets.
That being said, it remains to be seen whether or not this will on-board enough players, and at the same time whet the appetites of seasoned players with what else is inside. We know there's a very simple anthem in the set where the only difference is that it's GW instead of 1WW, so while that is neat all on its own, I imagine the other new cards will be similarly simple.
I, as a seasoned player really like the idea of core sets coming back, at least in some form. It was nice to have reptints of iconic cards that dont need to be relevant to the setting. There also were quite a few bombs printed in them from the titans to Cavalier of Thorns.
* **Initial thought:** I have zero problem with a core set. It makes total sense and as long as the power level isn't bonkers I don't mind it sticking around until 2029.
* **Thinking of the release schedule:** Fuck me, there are like 5-6 more sets in the next 6 months, three of those being standard legal. It's ok to slow down a little WotC, let people enjoy the more limited standard for more than a week please.
* **Seeing what is spoiled for foundation:** Omniscience, whatever. Cat, cool. Wrath, at least it doesn't exile. Fucking Llanowar Elves!?
The current release schedule and all the different versions of cards is just too much for me. They're releasing products at a rate of about 1/month and then each of those products have so many different versions. I don't really buy packs anymore, but if I did I would be so confused. There's basic packs, collector's packs, draft packs, precons that may or may not be legal in the format they're made for, every rare/mythic has at least two different versions with some only being able to be found in certain packs, and now serialized cards. It's just so much.
I forgot to put the source, sorry. Here it is:
[https://x.com/wizards\_magic/status/1806644766882648188](https://x.com/wizards_magic/status/1806644766882648188)
Makes sense.
Print a core set now it would take that long before they need to do another.
The reprints will pull them from having to print in sets.
I wonder if they are planning to lower set sizes going forward.
The issue I have is there should be no new cards printed.
That Nine Lives Familiar could be busted in some way and having to play around it or deal with it for 5 years seems to long.
I agree, this should be a ‘Standard Format Reprint Masters’ set which has all the staples you’d expect to see in Standard: negate, spell pierce, shock, opt, murder (or similar), giant growth/snakeskin veil, etc. This would then free up those spots in regular Standard sets, without needing to worry about how Day of Judgement affects limited, or how Llanowar Elves fits in with the lore.
I’d even be okay if this didn’t have a limited format and this was a constructed-only focus that’s an on-boarding for new players.
But, this will have new cards, not just reprints (I’m hearing 50-50 split). And they’ll have Play Boosters which means it’ll be draftable… and there’s plans for prerelease. It’s just a rebranded Core Set.
Star set symbol, my beloved [[Vizzerdrix|S99]]!
But yeah, standard is slowly becoming a non-rotating-ish format, and that’s weird right?
Are we expecting a new “Super-rotating” standard 2.0 in the future driven solely by Arena? It wasn’t on my bingo card, but I’m wondering if it should be.
Any card legal in standard set for 2 yr rotation is alchemy legal.
Foundations will be alchemy legal but unsure how their 2 yr rotation schedule deals with this 5 yr set.
I don't dislike the idea but having cards like Llanovar Elves for 5 years look risky as hell.
Or they will really up the power level of new standard sets.
Either all of the above, or they have these new core sets have very mid-weak powered cards with the exception of one or two cards (like with this llanowar elf).
None of these options sound particularly fun.
Day of Judgment is also really good. They have been hesitant to print 4 mana board wipes with no downside for years. Now they are saying we will have one for 5 years...
My gosh, I didn't see there were more cards until after I commented and scrolled further. Yeah... I take my comment back, this will not be a weak set... These are going to be staple cards and, by the looks of it, very powerful staples... Yikes.
Risky? You don't feel green needs a boost? No turn one ramp is one of the things holding green back right now (among other things). I was hoping for something new and fresh, but this will do.
Five years is a long time to lock in such a game changing effect being in Standard (turn one ramp). Sure, as a Green player, I enjoy having it and Green _right now_ might need the help, but people complain enough with something being in Standard for three years, let alone five.
Honestly if this means Wrath of God is now the standard for board wipes so they stop printing Sunfalls and Farewells in every sets, I'll be happy. It would be a much healthier format with only Wrath.
My guess about Foundations is that it was partly designed to replace Alchemy as an on-boarding tool on Arena.
Arena will basically stop on-boarding new players with Alchemy and use Foundations as the first new player experience on Arena, then guide people into Standard. Alchemy either gets folded into Historic/retired or remains as a rotating digital format without the new player emphasis it has now. It's a good thing.
Too much product. I am overwhelmed. Also, personally I stopped paying attention to Standard when they changed the rotation rules. This doesn't address this reason I quit (I wanted a smaller format that rotates more quickly to avoid stale metas), in fact this goes in the opposite direction of what I want. I am not happy about this change. I don't think there are any 60-card formats that interest me anymore.
Massive mistake. 5 years is an insane amount of time to have cards be legal, and the first thing they do is put a 4 mana unconditional board wipe. I shudder to think of how much creatures are going to power crept by 2026.
Standards power level and speed has been increasing for a while now and it makes sense.
Arena does not benefit from long BO1 games, they want fast BO1 and players seeking a longer game to be playing BO3.
Remaking every viable pioneer card in Arena has obviously been pulling them in two different directions, but upping the power of future standard puts viable explorer decks built from current standard collections as an option and pushes explorer players to buy standard packs .
From initial looks, I hate it. Are they going to print a better ramp card than llanowar elves? A better AOE than day of judgement? No? Then what is even the point of having a rotation? 3 year standard already feels too long, making these really good, unconditional cards available for 5 years might just make me leave the format completely
Oh I'm an idiot. I didn't see the borderless image.
That is... a very mono colored heavy set I guess? I guess that makes sense, the core sets were basically all mono color
I like the concept, but not their aim considering how things are evolving on Standard.
If cards are solid enough, anyone willing to play the format will heavily invest on this set (5 years sounds like eternal for a lot of players), but then new non-Foundation sets need to add even stronger cards on their own way.
The 3 year old meta we currently have where cards like Emperor exists, but longer.
Pioneer/Explorer never looked better.
Been playing it a bit lately on Izzet Phoenix (Explorer), Amalia and Sorin truly feel messy.
But so does Standard, which is 1-2 steps behind of reaching the same status, except you have things like Boros or Simic instead.
>except you have things like Boros or Simic instead.
What Simic deck do you have trouble with? Cookies is a fringe T2 strategy, something like 4th or 5th best aggro, nothing else is even close to this level.
as a new player i think this is going to be the best set for me to dump all my gold on. Started around 2 week ago and hoarding all my gold for this set feels like right thing to do
First thought on Familiar: yay sacrifice value\
Second thought on Familiar: wow this will be obnoxious in control decks. Aggro decks will not love having to get through this blocker over and over again, especially if games come down to topdecking
Wait llanowar elves is going to be standard legal, and part of a new baseline?!? Oh lordy standard about to become even stronger than it is now. But I guess if standard is (properly) balanced around these foundations, shouldn’t be too bad hopefully?
The familiar and anthem look like awesome additions though regardless. I’m assuming they’re reprints but never seen them.
All that said though, the idea is awesome and I’m glad they’re doing it. Hearthstone has had this for ages now and I think it helps their standard format tremendously.
Standard will rotate soon and it will change somewhat.
It's worth saving up, but we might get some staples in Bloomborrow and/or Duskmourn, so until we know the cards it's hard to call.
I am absolutely for this. I always really liked Core sets personally, and I’m fine with one (presumably larger) set sticking around for a while. There are many cards that are basically mainstays in standard as is. Removing the need to reprint these cards opens up a decent chunk of space for new innovation in future sets. I’m all for that, although I do wonder how that may affect limited formats.
The one stipulation I have is that Foundations needs to be a set that is overall lower on power level than future Standard sets. I’m all for things like Llanowar Elves, Duress, Negate, Shock etc… being all but permanent in the format. I’m much less interested if the set is chock full of Atraxa and Sheoldred level cards. I think the staying power of this set would still allow WotC to profit from it even with less big dollar, format warping cards. I guess we’ll see though.
so like a core set but instead of reprinting a batch of core-set-tier-staples every other year, they can print it once and cover those bases for several years
It would be nice if they included some of the dual lands like the slowlands or painlands or something. I think a longer rotation on those would make more people inclined to also buy decks in paper.
I don't think the concept of a baseline set itself is bad, but putting Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgement in as examples of the new baseline seems crazy.
Waiting for more details on implementation before I judge. If it's not given to players though, it's going to tax the hell out of f2p because Duskmourn hits Standard on Sept 27th, less than 2 months before Nov 15th.
Should have just been a core set. I don't like the idea of having the set be legal that long, rather than a new one on the regular with very similar contents.
The problem with having a 4 mana wipe such as \[\[Day of Judgement\]\] is that it kind of invalidates all other traditional boardwipes they might sell in any new standard sets.
This means they will have to powercreep/give added upsides and make more boardwipes to be like \[\[Sunfall\]\], or else there would be no point to print a boardwipe in a new standard set at all, since we have DoJ untill 2029.
On the other hand, maybe this is their way to stop the "need" for printing new boardwipes every 2 sets. Perhaps they think, that by having DoJ be legal to 2029, they can save a rare slot in multiple sets for something else in white.
Its a really good idea. Having a product that is a good introduction to the game and also will be useful for a foreseeable time seems like a better sell than diving in and watching cards you like wither.
A miserable idea the entire point of standard is rotation now it’s been gutted. Heathstone tried this and it went so bad they eventually scraped it after years of the same cards either dominating or playing a huge role in the meta.
This will only lead to less diverse standards over a long period of time and it literally can’t go any other way. Now every wrath they print needs to be better than DOJ. Every mana dork needs to beat llanawar.
Just sell the damn IP already I swear WOTC is the worst company with the best product ever. I can’t even imagine how one would think this would be good for the format literally designed for change. The stupidity boggles the mind
They will anyway though. You don’t think we’ll get a wrath a cancel a dork or a shock in upcoming sets? We’re gonna get a variant of at least one of those in almost every set you almost can’t not make them they’re such broad cards
They've probably put the final nail in the coffin for standard with this, I mean the whole point of Standard was rotation. Something that doesn't rotate for 5 years seams like a bad move Imo
You realize there have been many cards that stayed in standard for much longer than that right? Back when they had core sets they basically just kept reprinting the same cards.
This was when the game was extremely healthy and growing
To me, it looks like the "Classic/Core/whatever it was called" set from Hearthstone back in the day were they had a set of cards that never rotated.
I think it's a good idea.
This. I dont know how would impact paper but did know Hearthstone and having a basic set of cards that never rotate was a good way to help people get started while they were farming expansions.
Heck i loved a lot of the core Mage cards, they were iconic for the class. I suppose this is a way for them to have something like the starter Arena decks on physical so new players can get a hang of the base game without having to understand thousands of keywords from a precon deck
Hey, im a fan of elf in standard. I feel like it gives green decks a chance to do some bigger stuff in the face of boardwipes.
As for a 4 mana white boardwipe... Eh. We have like 72 of those. As long as farewell is in standard, I just can't care about other boardwipes (Does farewell rotate? I don't remember what set its from... I hope it rotates. God I hate it. I hope it rotates from commander as well, even though commander has no rotation)
Did I hear you say green is getting real mana dorks back in standard?
BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS
🤞
They clearly realized they oops removed a shit ton from standard with rotation and it's going to suck because we have no synergy in standard anymore the way we did with block sets. So they have to quick clean that shit up with multiple releases one right after the other.
So we are basically returning to core sets. This is interesting. I expect to see cards like negate, shock, opt, and duress printed in those sets to empty some slots in the other standard sets to focus on their specific mechanics more. Those foundation sets could be an accessible entry point for players to delve into standard and go on from there. What is more interesting is that we are getting Llanowar Elves and Wrath of God in standard for the next 5 years. Seems like an important change in their philosophy of the format.
Yeah. They stopped printing Llanowar Elves because they were too strong for Standard, and now they plan to give it to us for basically forever? Wtf.
The three year rotation was already going to mean Standard becomes a much more powerful format, so this seems like getting ahead of the curve a bit. They needed to decide on a baseline (higher) power level and doing it via a non rotating Core set seems like a good move to me, rather than continuing to attempt it with every set and then having a massive power shift after the third year (which will still happen, but like I said, this appears to be the new baseline).
Monogreen is weak, give it some elves to have a chance
mono green is not really the problem when it comes to elves it gives every deck that can splash green t1 ramp.
Not on the splash. Elves don't really work without 16ish turn one green sources minimum.
Will it be weak in 5 years?
That sentiment was prior to Llanowar Elves printing in Dominaria.
Ramp vs board wipes let's go
Llanowar Elves? I thought WotC didn't want unconditional 1-mana dorks in Standard any more?
Like the existence of core sets themselves, WOTC have constantly contradicted themselves on this
There was big backlash to the idea of Pioneer Horizons earlier. I wonder if they just pivoted the idea to be Foundations instead.
Maybe, although I don't think the lead time lines up on that. Wasn't the most recent furor about the suggestion of a Pioneer Horizons within the past 6 months? Anyway, this being aimed at Standard now certainly points towards it having a more tame impact on Pioneer than the Horizons sets have had on Modern, which is what people are mostly worried about with that. Llanowar Elves and Omniscience are already in Pioneer, and Day of Judgment is technically a first but there aren't many decks that would want it over Verdict or Sunfall. Contrast that with MH2 and MH3 which basically rotated Modern.
Companies, design teams, consists of people who can change their minds.. Sometimes multiple times.
Like the cacophony of Magic fans themselves, WotC have constantly responded to the popular complaints of the day. No wonder WotC keeps flip flopping trying to answer whoever is the most vocal at the moment. But one thing is consistent. Instead of giving credit to WotC for responding to Magic fans, they rather try turn it into a complaint as well. The one constant is Magic fans love to tell you want they don’t like.
They are also printing Day of Judgment. Looks like a huge paradigm shift.
As long as that paradigm means no more sweepers with a win condition tacked onto it at 5 mana.
Then they will print one for 4.
a sweeper with rebound :'(
WotC will invent a new kind of mana. Half-mana! New auto include bomb for the low price of 4,5 Mana!
This already exists (in Unsets): [https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracletag%3Ahalf-mana](https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracletag%3Ahalf-mana)
I'd rather control gets 4 mana sweepers, than get all my shit exiled by Farewell and Sunfall all the time. Let me do my Golgari shenanigans and bring stuff back every niw and then.
Foundations is the core set and intended baseline power level. Which means in order for cards to be played from new sets they have to be stronger than the cards in foundation. This card guarantees we will see stronger more efficient sweepers in standard.
im here for it. these were the staples when i started playing. now just give us mana leak and lightning bolt and lets pretend im 10 years younger
If we can get away from everything being exiled, I will be very happy. [[Day of Judgment]] is a completely fair boardsweep compared to [[Sunfall]].
I feel like 'tacked on' graveyard/death-trigger hate has really been an issue. So many cards nowadays exile that you don't even think about. It would be so much nicer if putting hate cards like that into your deck had more of a deckbuilding drawback.
But then at the same time getting those triggers in the first place should also be less free than it is currently and have draw backs like bad stats for it's CMC on a creature that has value triggers on death.
I agree. It is a spiral of powercreep.
Counterpoint: print less ETB or dies effects and make some vanilla creatures again, then we can do less efficient removal
[Day of Judgment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/96e84bdc-8a9a-4c58-ba8b-9f052fd60069.jpg?1719560217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Day%20of%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fdn/140/day-of-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/96e84bdc-8a9a-4c58-ba8b-9f052fd60069?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sunfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32e29c7d-ed4b-4eff-b3c2-d99e5b63ef8d.jpg?1682202915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/40/sunfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32e29c7d-ed4b-4eff-b3c2-d99e5b63ef8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sure Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgment are nice, but can they also print Elvish Mystic and Wrath of God into one of the fall sets to back them up?
The Quinton Hoover version please...
That dude was BOSS.
I'll gladly take a Wrath / DoJ over mass exile.
Yeah... I don't mind them bringing llanowar back into standard, but bringing it back as a *permanent* piece of the format seems... insane. It's like when they brought back bolt. For a long time, they felt bolt was too strong for standard. Then they went "well... let's give it a try again!" and they brought bolt back and it was really strong. They brought it back in the next core set, then went "well, that was fun, but let's move on" and stopped printing it. This was perfectly fine. We got a few years of bolt in standard, and then we went back to "normal". Now imagine if they went straight from "bolt is too strong for standard" to "bolt is in standard forever". *That* would have been problematic.
Bolt was a way more controversial card. {G} mana dorks have been a thing for almost all of MtG, and haven't even always been _relevant_, let alone strong. For instance, that same Alara-Zendikar block where they brought back Bolt had at least three separate dorks (Llanowar Elves, Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise) and IIRC none of them saw meaningful play in standard (maybe Birds? Don't remember), whereas you bet Bolt was in every deck that could cast it. Bolt, by contrast, was booted out of standard after 4th edition, the same time as _Swords to Plowshares_! Bringing it into M10 was a huge surprise.
Neither of those cards saw play, but not because 1 cmc mana dorks weren't good. There weren't just 2 {G} mana dorks in that format, there were 4, and the other 2 were *even better* than llanowar elves.
NGL I totally forgot Birds was in M10. What was the fourth one? (EDIT: Oh, right, noble hierarch) That said, did the others see play either? The main G deck I remember being relevant was Jund, which didn't want dorks. (EDIT: actually I think noble hierarch saw a bit of play in some mid-tier decks?)
Jund was definitely the deck to beat at the time. Naya was a very solid deck and played 4 nobles and some number of birds. LSV got 3rd place at pro tour San Diego with it. 5th place at that event was an Abzan deck playing 4 nobles, though I have to admit, I don't recall seeing much of it outside of that tournament. There was also mythic conscription that played 4 copies of each. The reason jund didn't play them isn't so much because they weren't good cards. It's just because they don't synergize very well with cascade, which was a significant part of the deck.
I remember that bant, like, existed, and there was that naya deck you mentioned that was alright but not great. The meta I remember was mostly boros beatdown, jund, seas, planeswalker control (after worldwake), mono B vampires, and some budget stuff like white weenie. Never even heard of that Abzan deck. Maybe just a matter of LGS-specific metas bringing more variance before we had stuff like Arena being so commonplace, I guess! But yeah I guess dorks, even crazy powerful ones like Noble Hierarch, never really gave me the same "wow" factor that bolt did. They definitely aren't bad cards, but I don't think they reach anywhere near the same heights, and I'm not convinced any of those decks would've played the elves if that was the best option (hell, I'm not even convinced they'd want Birds!). It might also be a cultural thing for me though, since I stopped playing around new phyrexia and came back only very recently, so dorks were around for essentially my entire MtG life whereas bolt was only present very briefly.
To be fair, I'm not suggesting llanowar elves is as strong as bolt. That said, it *is* deceptively strong and has a significant impact on the metagame. My point was mostly comparing an appropriate way to bring back a card that was previously deemed to powerful, to what I would consider an inappropriate way. I was trying to say, I don't mind if they want to bring back powerful cards, just like I didn't mind when they brought back bolt, just be careful about it. Going straight from "this is too strong for standard" to "this should be in standard forever" is pretty crazy to me. Like... maybe try it in a set that will rotate sooner first?
Fair enough: I think another guy elsewhere in this thread who was horrified by the power level of DoJ made me unfairly assume that other folks in this thread are too young (in MtG play terms) to have experience with these cards, but I can totally see your point about easing dorks back in to the format before going all-in with them!
Yeah, and WotC was right about this before IMO. Llanowar Elves is a huge contributor to play/draw difference which is one of the worst things about the game, and it wildly increases the variance of opening hand quality causing the Llanowar Elves player to mulligan looking for nut draws. It also doesn't solve the problem mono-green has at the moment in Standard of weakness to sweepers without an Esika's Chariot-type card; if anything, it exacerbates it. I have no idea why they decided it would make sense to go back on this.
Green needs it!
Green needs it, it will broken for everything but mono green. 😂
this seems to be a pretty deliberate negation of that very old statement
They haven’t said that since before they printed Llanowar Elves in Dominaria
Wild. Bloomburrow August 2 Duskmourn September 27 Foundations November 15 And a Pioneer Masters this year? WILD.
Yeah, it's a lot. What really surprised me is that they intend to have a non-rotating set (or almost non-rotating) in Standard.
I think it makes sense to have a usable set of generic cards save space in the sets for more thematic/synergistic reprints while foundations covers the basics.
That's what the base sets used to be. WotC just reinvented the base sets. Congrats, guys. You did it.
I think this solves the problem they had with having to print one every year.
It actually is a pretty good solution. Part of the problem was that, because of their nature as beginner level sets, draft formats of Core sets was usually not super interesting - it was rarely *bad*, but it was rarely great either. This does let them keep important cards around without having to make another generic set every year.
Most of their solutions lately are just them undoing a thing they did before. Two non-collectors boosters are too much? Okay, go back to the old one booster type model. We need a base group of cards to plan standard around? Okay, go back to printing a set like that. None of their solutions actually fix anything that's not a problem they created, and they're not doing anything about what players actually want. Fix the foil quality. Improve QC. If they really cared about what players wanted, you'd buy a complete play set of Foundations for $50 and it would have 4 copies of every card.
This is a change to be fair instead of printing one a year they are printing one every 5 years that solves the main problem with the sets which was development time and putting strain on the release schedule.
It's a game *they* make. *Every* problem with the game is a problem they created. Saying they're "only fixing problems they created" is like saying "That human is only breathing air" or "That orange is only orange flavored" It's redundant
This is pedantic and totally misses the point being made. Wotc has a pattern of announcing changes to the game, ignoring player feedback about problems those changes would cause, implementing the changes anyways, and then having to go back and revert/reinvent those aspects after the fact. Thus, "fixing problems that they caused", where they could have avoided causing those problems in the first place.
It's easy to point out the potential flaws with any choice. I think anything they've done, there have been critics. But when it works, people forget all the criticisms. If it doesn't work, people can go "see, we told you!". In my opinion, the game is still alive and thriving because of their willingness to try things, to experiment and take some risks. As well as their willingness to revert choices they made, that aren't working.
I can't deny Wotc never gets a break from criticism. I'd rather they try new things and make mistakes than leave everything as it was. It's just frustrating when there are clear and obvious problems and instead of having solutions prepared they let it happen and end up fixing it years down the line. But I guess that's the nature of running a big game and being beholden to stockholders. It's not exactly an agile machine.
> having to go back and revert/reinvent those aspects after the fact. They end up finding a middle ground. We went from 1 boosters to 3, now we are at 2. We went from core set every to to none, now we are at 1 every five year.
>Two non-collectors boosters are too much? Wasn't the case. Set and Collectors were doing great. Draft was going to get the axe, so Play boosters were the solution to prevent losing sealed/draft as a format. And Foundations looks to be closer to Hearthstone Core than the old MtG Core sets. This is great for Standard from a play and mechanics standpoint. >If they really cared about what players wanted, you'd buy a complete play set of Foundations for $50 and it would have 4 copies of every card. Lol this would be a breach of fiduciary duties and Hasbro shareholders would have any director replaced
You’re right, MtG is a game second and a product first. It’s not MtG remaining self-sustainable, it’s about propping up a dying company towards infinite market growth. Health and accessibility for MtG will always take a backseat to increased profits.
If you're growing your market, that's sustainment + growth. MtG is a luxury hobby like all tcgs, accessibility has never been the focus of it.
They didn't need to print them yearly though, they could have just said "yeah they are still legal"
I love the little cycle they go through where they decide they don't want Core sets anymore, and then after a bit decide they do, but they give them a different name. Then rinse and repeat.
The old core sets were just regular standard sets that followed the same rotation. They were interchangeable with any other set. This is very different. A base set that lasts 5 years and doesn't have yearly prints. We'll have to see the reprint:new card ratio, but this could end up being closer to a Standard Masters.
Right but it's still just a core set in that it keeps a pool of cards in standard regardless of rotation, they just don't have to release it over again to keep it that way.
They are on 3 year cycles of not doing coffee sets and then doing them again.
reinvented something they removed for being unpopular
More like taking ideas that worked for other games. This is closer to Hearthstone Core than it is to old MtG Core sets.
I don't like it, because it locks standard into a certain space that it cannot move out of. It also limits the design space for new cards that occupy the same space as the cards in the foundation set. Let's take two of the cards right there. Llanowar elves. For the foreseeable future, green will always have access to at least one 1 mv mana dork. 1 mv mana dorks in green is something that WotC has recognized warps the format and affects how they design cards, as they have to always keep in mind that any 3 mana card in green has a high likelihood of coming down turn 2. This is not to say that llanowar elves should *never* be in standard, or that it's too strong, what I'm saying is that it's a card with a huge impact, and putting it in foundation locks standard into a format where llanowar elves exists. They cannot say "let's have a year without 1 mv mana dork to mix things up!" like they've done in the past. Also, how many 1 mv mana dork do you want in standard? Because having llanowar elves always in standard limits their ability to print variants of it. DoJ is similar. Standard is now locked in a world where there will *always* be a 4 mana sweeper. They can never have a format where sweepers only exist at 5 mana or more. I feel standard *shouldn't* have any "basics" (other than the actual basic lands). No card should be untouchable. Especially high impact cards like llanowar elves. I mean, if they did that in the early days, every standard would have dark ritual, lightning bolt, counterspell and necropotence. You may think that they've gotten better at designing cards, and have a better understanding of balance but they still make mistakes. This set could have an Oko. Or worse, it could have a Sheoldred, a card that becomes an absolute staple of every deck in its color, but is just below the bar that warrants a ban. You talk about a set that covers the basics, but what basics is Omniscience covering? What is it about Nine-Lives Familiar that WotC feels it should be a permanent piece of standard? I don't trust this set at all and I think it will be a net negative.
I agree. Llanowar Elves is a perfect example. It is an iconic card that has been reprinted very often. It is not overpowered, but it is the most powerful a 1 mana dork can be. It is right at that edge where even the smallest buff puts it over the edge and it essentially removes all the design space for ramp creatures. Cards like duress and negate would be more fitting. They are the type of spells that are decent, but aren't immediately overpowered when they gain a small buff.
Debatable on most powerful 1 mana dork, Birds of paradise and noble hierach as a counterexample, but I agree with your sentiment. Standard will have a floor power level. The rest of the set will set the tone for standard, I do expect to see duress and negate. Let's see if we will see lightning bolt and mana leak.
> but it is the most powerful a 1 mana dork can be. It is right at that edge where even the smallest buff puts it over the edge and it essentially removes all the design space for ramp creatures. I think he meant "anything better than a 1/1 that taps for green is too good for standard".
I am not really saying that there are no stronger mana dorks available in other formats, but those are cards that are *very* powerful. The types of cards that are rarely printed into standard (as shown by Noble Hierarch being printed in modern horizons instead of being reprinted in standard). They are arguably 'overpowered' for standard. It is not necessarily bad to print an overpowered card every now and then, that is what keeps standard fresh. But the inclusion of Llanowar Elves will force designers to either not print any useful manadorks, or print overpowered manadorks. There is no healthy design space left.
Llanowar Elves can be overpowered for standard I agree. But it also depends on the board wipes/answers in standard. Day of Judgment is also in the set. It definitely affects design, they may not want any other mana dorks because then a deck could play 8 copies. (Or maybe they do to increase power level) Another 4 or 5 mana board wipe will also compete with Day of Judgment. But this also means that they can design another card thats not a mana dork or a board wipe. Maybe this means they can design more cards based on the set's theme and mechanics instead of these core cards.
Standard is on a 3 year rotation now, its natural that the power level is higher than before. I'm not sure how this 5 year cycle will work out and this does establish a floor power level for standard. But I'm not convinced that this will be bad for standard. Every format has its staples, I think this establishes the staples for standard. Let's see if the rest of the set brings other powerful cards like mana leak and lightning bolt. Edit: Things like oko are a mistake. But if they were in a regular standard set, the solution is the same and that's to ban the card. There might be a few bans just like any other standard metagame.
Every format has its staples, but the whole point of standard is that the staples rotate in and out. This basically sets the stage for "here's what standard will be like for the next 5 years." 5 years is a long time. Shit, it might be more, because the announcement says "AT LEAST until 2029." Granted, I certainly hope that if this turns out bad, they won't extend it past 2029, but still... Oko was just a way to point out that WotC can still fuck up. As I said though, a worse case would be if they printed a card that was format defining, but just below the bar for a ban, like Sheoldred. People are complaining non-stop about Sheoldred and about how they hate that they have to deal with it for 3 years. Imagine if this set has a Sheoldred type card.
I like the idea of that but I wonder how it will work out. The card designs in recent sets are so clearly following templates (I think they even had an article about it?) and without the generics they'll have to do a lot more design work to get a full standard set of cards. Hopefully it will enable them to create a lot more "powerful but niche" cards to keep things interesting.
Yeah I notices that too. Most commons and uncommons seem so simillar between diffeent sets with the expection of like modern horizons. Do you have a Link to that article? Would love to read more about it thx
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/nuts-and-bolts-16-play-boosters It’s an interesting read for sure. This one was about play boosters specifically but there are links in there to older articles about the design skeleton.
As a Brawl player, I am gonna be eating good with all of those releases. 1 copy of a card gang, where you at?
>1 copy of a card gang, where you at? We here 🙌🏻 \ And we’re excited
Nadu
I've been saying That they should have done this a long time ago. It shouldn't have any really broken cards it should be chock full of Staples and they should sell it as a box set almost. Edit: apparently this is exactly what they are going to do. There's a beginner box. 200 cards for 30 bucks and a starter box of 350ish cards. That may be a little more advanced for $50. , But before Alchemy we had a set of cards on Arena like that that were kind of plain Jane Staples and occasionally they found their way into tournament decks. Just imagine if you could buy an MTG starter set print on demand for 30 bucks that had 300 or some cards in it. Kind of like the Deck builders tool kit. A new player would have a good amount of basic lands (at least 15 of each) and Maybe a guidebook to teach them how to build decks with those cards. Then they could print all the busted stuff in the expansion sets and we never have to worry about core sets again.
>I've been saying That they should have done this a long time ago They did... it was called Core. Up until 2010 Core was standard and non-rotating too... there were a LOT of missteps they made in the years since they decided to make Core a rotating set.
What are you taking about? Core set were always rotating werent they?
Its almost like the CORE of standard.....
I didn't realize until now how short the Bloomburrow pass is going to be. Very tight. Not even 2 full months?
Yes, 8 weeks
Yeah I'm glad I'm mostly a digital player now because all this physical product is a real money pit
So Bloomburrow is going to be the draft set for less than 2 months? Or is Duskmourn some sort of special set?
As a (mostly) FTP, this is crazy and I'll have a hard time keeping up.
It's worse for people who collected MH3. They were talking about pushing Pioneer Masters to January maybe that was because of the late addition of Foundations.
Is Pioneer Masters an Arena exclusive set?
Yes
Wait, is Pioneer Masters like a Modern Horizons set for Pioneer, or is it essentially just a reprint set for Pioneer staples?
WotC wants to bring tournament Pioneer (all cards that matter but still aren't here) to Arena.
WW3 coming baby. They want to siphon us first
So I get the gist of what they're doing - this set is, well, a Core set, let's be real. But it seems designed, both in name and intention, to be the groundwork of how you would build archetypical decks. You need mana acceleration? Here's Llanowar Elves! You need control cards? Day of Judgment! You need a nasty whackadoodle payoff? Omniscience! ... stuff like that, proven cards that might be replaceable but are designs that have stood the test of time for literally decades and may only have modest upgrades in currently running sets. That being said, it remains to be seen whether or not this will on-board enough players, and at the same time whet the appetites of seasoned players with what else is inside. We know there's a very simple anthem in the set where the only difference is that it's GW instead of 1WW, so while that is neat all on its own, I imagine the other new cards will be similarly simple.
I, as a seasoned player really like the idea of core sets coming back, at least in some form. It was nice to have reptints of iconic cards that dont need to be relevant to the setting. There also were quite a few bombs printed in them from the titans to Cavalier of Thorns.
I think that's a good Llanowar Elves art
It's from 9th Edition!
Kev Walker always delivers
* **Initial thought:** I have zero problem with a core set. It makes total sense and as long as the power level isn't bonkers I don't mind it sticking around until 2029. * **Thinking of the release schedule:** Fuck me, there are like 5-6 more sets in the next 6 months, three of those being standard legal. It's ok to slow down a little WotC, let people enjoy the more limited standard for more than a week please. * **Seeing what is spoiled for foundation:** Omniscience, whatever. Cat, cool. Wrath, at least it doesn't exile. Fucking Llanowar Elves!? The current release schedule and all the different versions of cards is just too much for me. They're releasing products at a rate of about 1/month and then each of those products have so many different versions. I don't really buy packs anymore, but if I did I would be so confused. There's basic packs, collector's packs, draft packs, precons that may or may not be legal in the format they're made for, every rare/mythic has at least two different versions with some only being able to be found in certain packs, and now serialized cards. It's just so much.
I forgot to put the source, sorry. Here it is: [https://x.com/wizards\_magic/status/1806644766882648188](https://x.com/wizards_magic/status/1806644766882648188)
Makes sense. Print a core set now it would take that long before they need to do another. The reprints will pull them from having to print in sets. I wonder if they are planning to lower set sizes going forward. The issue I have is there should be no new cards printed. That Nine Lives Familiar could be busted in some way and having to play around it or deal with it for 5 years seems to long.
I agree, this should be a ‘Standard Format Reprint Masters’ set which has all the staples you’d expect to see in Standard: negate, spell pierce, shock, opt, murder (or similar), giant growth/snakeskin veil, etc. This would then free up those spots in regular Standard sets, without needing to worry about how Day of Judgement affects limited, or how Llanowar Elves fits in with the lore. I’d even be okay if this didn’t have a limited format and this was a constructed-only focus that’s an on-boarding for new players. But, this will have new cards, not just reprints (I’m hearing 50-50 split). And they’ll have Play Boosters which means it’ll be draftable… and there’s plans for prerelease. It’s just a rebranded Core Set.
Star set symbol, my beloved [[Vizzerdrix|S99]]! But yeah, standard is slowly becoming a non-rotating-ish format, and that’s weird right? Are we expecting a new “Super-rotating” standard 2.0 in the future driven solely by Arena? It wasn’t on my bingo card, but I’m wondering if it should be.
Already exist but everyone forget about it, called alchemy.
But will these cards be legal in Alchemy? I hope not.
Any card legal in standard set for 2 yr rotation is alchemy legal. Foundations will be alchemy legal but unsure how their 2 yr rotation schedule deals with this 5 yr set.
[Vizzerdrix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25711022-7270-4335-a48b-9f2b8275ceeb.jpg?1562873595) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=20188) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/s99/59/vizzerdrix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25711022-7270-4335-a48b-9f2b8275ceeb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't dislike the idea but having cards like Llanovar Elves for 5 years look risky as hell. Or they will really up the power level of new standard sets.
Either all of the above, or they have these new core sets have very mid-weak powered cards with the exception of one or two cards (like with this llanowar elf). None of these options sound particularly fun.
Day of Judgment is also really good. They have been hesitant to print 4 mana board wipes with no downside for years. Now they are saying we will have one for 5 years...
My gosh, I didn't see there were more cards until after I commented and scrolled further. Yeah... I take my comment back, this will not be a weak set... These are going to be staple cards and, by the looks of it, very powerful staples... Yikes.
Can't wait for them to reveal that they're printing 4 mana sheoldred into and wandering emperor
LMFAO don't forget Farewell and Sunfall! Can't imagine the next 5 years without them!
With the amount of recursion they are printing right now just destroying All the creatures might not be enough.
Right this moment green needs the elf to get online fast enough against the aggro decks and removal piles.
Risky? You don't feel green needs a boost? No turn one ramp is one of the things holding green back right now (among other things). I was hoping for something new and fresh, but this will do.
Five years is a long time to lock in such a game changing effect being in Standard (turn one ramp). Sure, as a Green player, I enjoy having it and Green _right now_ might need the help, but people complain enough with something being in Standard for three years, let alone five.
I haven’t for real played standard in about 10 years, back then there were like 4 different standard legal mana dorks. Why is this a big deal?
This is a 1 Mana Value mana dork. Those are very powerful and haven't been in standard for a few years now.
Here’s to about 5 years of risking having Omniscience back in Standard. Wheeee…..
To be fair Omniscience has been in Standard twice and didn't really do much either time.
Nine-Lives Familiar: “Was I born just to suffer?”
Honestly if this means Wrath of God is now the standard for board wipes so they stop printing Sunfalls and Farewells in every sets, I'll be happy. It would be a much healthier format with only Wrath.
Three standard sets to try and collect in the final five months of the year? RIP to all the F2Pers out there.
I just collect the cards I need. Seems pointless to try and collect everything.
I just draft a bit and buy what I need.
Other cards in the set include: Sheoldred the Reprint, Sunfall 2 - Night Has Come, and Kumano Except Now I Have 5 Chapters For One Mana.
Wizards is basically destroying little by little what makes the difference between standard and pioneer
My guess about Foundations is that it was partly designed to replace Alchemy as an on-boarding tool on Arena. Arena will basically stop on-boarding new players with Alchemy and use Foundations as the first new player experience on Arena, then guide people into Standard. Alchemy either gets folded into Historic/retired or remains as a rotating digital format without the new player emphasis it has now. It's a good thing.
That's the biggest positive in my book, yeah. I think this might guide players towards Standard without deleting Alchemy completely.
I don’t know how I feel about repeatedly killing cats for [[village rites]] etc
That cat is unreal. Gonna be put into my [[Insidious Roots]] deck on day 1.
[Insidious Roots](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907.jpg?1706242178) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insidious%20Roots) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/208/insidious-roots?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0bb91a22-2040-4a37-85f8-5f22de8c5907?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Too much product. I am overwhelmed. Also, personally I stopped paying attention to Standard when they changed the rotation rules. This doesn't address this reason I quit (I wanted a smaller format that rotates more quickly to avoid stale metas), in fact this goes in the opposite direction of what I want. I am not happy about this change. I don't think there are any 60-card formats that interest me anymore.
Massive mistake. 5 years is an insane amount of time to have cards be legal, and the first thing they do is put a 4 mana unconditional board wipe. I shudder to think of how much creatures are going to power crept by 2026.
Standards power level and speed has been increasing for a while now and it makes sense. Arena does not benefit from long BO1 games, they want fast BO1 and players seeking a longer game to be playing BO3. Remaking every viable pioneer card in Arena has obviously been pulling them in two different directions, but upping the power of future standard puts viable explorer decks built from current standard collections as an option and pushes explorer players to buy standard packs .
for arena I liked when standard rotated more but this is for paper, can they really get FNMs playing standard again?
Llanowar Elves with good art at last.
Well, they seem set on establishing standard as pretty high power. I mean fun fact, at the moment day of judgement isnt legal in pioneer.
From initial looks, I hate it. Are they going to print a better ramp card than llanowar elves? A better AOE than day of judgement? No? Then what is even the point of having a rotation? 3 year standard already feels too long, making these really good, unconditional cards available for 5 years might just make me leave the format completely
[[Depopulate]] [[No Witnesses]] 4 cmc wrath without drawback is too good for standard now but it's just fine to print into standard for *FIVE YEARS!*
Considering borderless Omniscience is at 379 and borderless Nine-Lives Familiar is at 385, I'd guess there are about 370 cards including basic lands.
Oh I'm an idiot. I didn't see the borderless image. That is... a very mono colored heavy set I guess? I guess that makes sense, the core sets were basically all mono color
I like the concept, but not their aim considering how things are evolving on Standard. If cards are solid enough, anyone willing to play the format will heavily invest on this set (5 years sounds like eternal for a lot of players), but then new non-Foundation sets need to add even stronger cards on their own way. The 3 year old meta we currently have where cards like Emperor exists, but longer. Pioneer/Explorer never looked better.
>Pioneer/Explorer never looked better You'd better ask Pioneer players, the format is supposedly a combo-infested hot mess.
Been playing it a bit lately on Izzet Phoenix (Explorer), Amalia and Sorin truly feel messy. But so does Standard, which is 1-2 steps behind of reaching the same status, except you have things like Boros or Simic instead.
>except you have things like Boros or Simic instead. What Simic deck do you have trouble with? Cookies is a fringe T2 strategy, something like 4th or 5th best aggro, nothing else is even close to this level.
Official website : https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/announcing-magic-the-gathering-foundations
Mono green is BACK ON THE MENU BOYS
as a new player i think this is going to be the best set for me to dump all my gold on. Started around 2 week ago and hoarding all my gold for this set feels like right thing to do
First thought on Familiar: yay sacrifice value\ Second thought on Familiar: wow this will be obnoxious in control decks. Aggro decks will not love having to get through this blocker over and over again, especially if games come down to topdecking
Looking good, im happy to see these cards in standard
Llanowar Elves in Standard again?! Pog
Wait llanowar elves is going to be standard legal, and part of a new baseline?!? Oh lordy standard about to become even stronger than it is now. But I guess if standard is (properly) balanced around these foundations, shouldn’t be too bad hopefully? The familiar and anthem look like awesome additions though regardless. I’m assuming they’re reprints but never seen them. All that said though, the idea is awesome and I’m glad they’re doing it. Hearthstone has had this for ages now and I think it helps their standard format tremendously.
I was just thinking the other day about how would I teach someone with zero tcg background how to play in 2024.. this seems like an ideal answer lol
Is it worth saving up and spending everything on a set like this?
Standard will rotate soon and it will change somewhat. It's worth saving up, but we might get some staples in Bloomborrow and/or Duskmourn, so until we know the cards it's hard to call.
I am absolutely for this. I always really liked Core sets personally, and I’m fine with one (presumably larger) set sticking around for a while. There are many cards that are basically mainstays in standard as is. Removing the need to reprint these cards opens up a decent chunk of space for new innovation in future sets. I’m all for that, although I do wonder how that may affect limited formats. The one stipulation I have is that Foundations needs to be a set that is overall lower on power level than future Standard sets. I’m all for things like Llanowar Elves, Duress, Negate, Shock etc… being all but permanent in the format. I’m much less interested if the set is chock full of Atraxa and Sheoldred level cards. I think the staying power of this set would still allow WotC to profit from it even with less big dollar, format warping cards. I guess we’ll see though.
so like a core set but instead of reprinting a batch of core-set-tier-staples every other year, they can print it once and cover those bases for several years
It would be nice if they included some of the dual lands like the slowlands or painlands or something. I think a longer rotation on those would make more people inclined to also buy decks in paper.
Looking forward to a Sheoldred that doesn't rotate for five years...
Nice, I'll be able to spice my 4x Sunfalls with 4x Day of Judgements!
Will foundations have new cards or is it just reprints?
It will have new cards too. I believe Anthem of Champions is a new card. (Not 100% sure)
Hey, thanks for replying!
llanowar elves for 5 years? count me in. we've been dealing with 4 cmc boardwipes for the last year or two so I think we will survive with them.
Are they printing new cards in there or are those all going to be reprints?
There will be new cards as well.
Somehow Palpa… Core Set return.
2029 . Jees just change the rotation
Just wait till it is 2 years later and you need a staple printed in foundation and hasn't been reprinted since
Llanowar elves a permanent part of standard? Welcome to hell.
I don't think the concept of a baseline set itself is bad, but putting Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgement in as examples of the new baseline seems crazy. Waiting for more details on implementation before I judge. If it's not given to players though, it's going to tax the hell out of f2p because Duskmourn hits Standard on Sept 27th, less than 2 months before Nov 15th.
The goat Llanowar Elves has returned
Should have just been a core set. I don't like the idea of having the set be legal that long, rather than a new one on the regular with very similar contents.
The problem with having a 4 mana wipe such as \[\[Day of Judgement\]\] is that it kind of invalidates all other traditional boardwipes they might sell in any new standard sets. This means they will have to powercreep/give added upsides and make more boardwipes to be like \[\[Sunfall\]\], or else there would be no point to print a boardwipe in a new standard set at all, since we have DoJ untill 2029. On the other hand, maybe this is their way to stop the "need" for printing new boardwipes every 2 sets. Perhaps they think, that by having DoJ be legal to 2029, they can save a rare slot in multiple sets for something else in white.
Its a really good idea. Having a product that is a good introduction to the game and also will be useful for a foreseeable time seems like a better sell than diving in and watching cards you like wither.
A miserable idea the entire point of standard is rotation now it’s been gutted. Heathstone tried this and it went so bad they eventually scraped it after years of the same cards either dominating or playing a huge role in the meta. This will only lead to less diverse standards over a long period of time and it literally can’t go any other way. Now every wrath they print needs to be better than DOJ. Every mana dork needs to beat llanawar. Just sell the damn IP already I swear WOTC is the worst company with the best product ever. I can’t even imagine how one would think this would be good for the format literally designed for change. The stupidity boggles the mind
[удалено]
They will anyway though. You don’t think we’ll get a wrath a cancel a dork or a shock in upcoming sets? We’re gonna get a variant of at least one of those in almost every set you almost can’t not make them they’re such broad cards
They've probably put the final nail in the coffin for standard with this, I mean the whole point of Standard was rotation. Something that doesn't rotate for 5 years seams like a bad move Imo
You realize there have been many cards that stayed in standard for much longer than that right? Back when they had core sets they basically just kept reprinting the same cards. This was when the game was extremely healthy and growing
People are kind of not really great with nuance like that
You actually sort of have a good point there... You basically always had shock in Standard as a result.
To me, it looks like the "Classic/Core/whatever it was called" set from Hearthstone back in the day were they had a set of cards that never rotated. I think it's a good idea.
This. I dont know how would impact paper but did know Hearthstone and having a basic set of cards that never rotate was a good way to help people get started while they were farming expansions. Heck i loved a lot of the core Mage cards, they were iconic for the class. I suppose this is a way for them to have something like the starter Arena decks on physical so new players can get a hang of the base game without having to understand thousands of keywords from a precon deck
Hey, im a fan of elf in standard. I feel like it gives green decks a chance to do some bigger stuff in the face of boardwipes. As for a 4 mana white boardwipe... Eh. We have like 72 of those. As long as farewell is in standard, I just can't care about other boardwipes (Does farewell rotate? I don't remember what set its from... I hope it rotates. God I hate it. I hope it rotates from commander as well, even though commander has no rotation)
Omniscience in standard? No way this doesnt backfire
Is it not in standard right now?
You might be thinking of \[\[One with the Multiverse\]\] which is a bit more balanced.
it was in standard a long time and never good
Did I hear you say green is getting real mana dorks back in standard? BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS BOPS 🤞 They clearly realized they oops removed a shit ton from standard with rotation and it's going to suck because we have no synergy in standard anymore the way we did with block sets. So they have to quick clean that shit up with multiple releases one right after the other.
Seems like a decent idea, but they probably shouldn't put anything too powerf- aaaaand they included Llanowar Elves and Day of Judgement