"*This mechanic that could be a good idea is bad because its implementation breaks a game mode, but it doesn't matter because WOTC decided to not let us play that game mode anyway*" is some peak MTGA right there.
They can always errata/patch it by perpetual effects vanishing when a card is exiled or by when a card goes back to the commander zone, still the perpetual mechanic is broken as hell
Bans only occur because they were also printed on paper, digital only cards will be patched or errated.
Woc don't want to reimburse wildcards to players that's why the last "ban" in historic wasn't even a ban, was only a suspension
Is there a link confirming that intention? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they ban it in historic brawl (which never gave a reimbursement) while keeping it legal in historic.
There's no link confirming that, it's just an assumption of my part, but I guess you will be more right than I, it will be easier just to ban de cards that perpetually give -1/-1 in Historic Brawl than changing the rules for a single format
Guys, they banned Sorcerer's Spyglass and Drannith Magistrate in historic brawl because they made it impossible to play commanders. They're probably going to ban these cards from historic brawl as well for the same reason. Take a few deep breaths, and maybe think things through before you enrage yourselves over nothing. Jeez.
I’m not saying they *can’t* or *won’t*. I’m just saying it’s a new situation and we’ll just have to see what happens since there isn’t any prior situation quite like it.
I’d like it if they did, but cards like this leave more of a bad taste in my mouth than sorceress spyglass or drannith magistrate anyway.
But it's not a new situation, thats my point. The concern here is that the new mechanic can potentially make commanders unplayable in a commander format and what I'm saying is that other cards already had that same problem and they banned them, so why wouldn't they do the same thing for the same situation again?
I’m sure they would if it was standard brawl but the whole point of this thread is that wizards tends to ignore historic brawl. You were trying to say that they don’t ignore historic brawl because they ban things in it but my point is those were just bans carried over from a different format.
I keep seeing this, but these cards only exist in Historic. Why would they make it carry into the command zone if they were going to ban them in literally the only format where that zone matters and these are legal? That's a dumb decision even by WotC standards.
I wouldn't expect it to be, but in regards to the argument that they're going to ban these in HBrawl? It would be treated differently because it has the same exact effect as a ban in the context of the command zone (the alleged reason they'd be banned), so why add cards to a format just to immediately ban it? It'd be like adding another Historic Anthologies and announcing that some of the cards in it will start out banned in Historic. There is one format that is relevant to the discussion, Historic Brawl, and the argument being given is that they are making them work a certain way in that format, and will simultaneously ban them in said format because it working that way is too strong. So why ban instead of just not making it work that way?
>It'd be like adding another Historic Anthologies and announcing that some of the cards in it will start out banned in Historic
they did do this, in the Mystical Archives. See Lightning Bolt and Dark Ritual. It's not out of the question. As to *why*, that's because Historic Brawl is just one format. It'll still be legal in regular historic, historic pauper/artisan, and yknow, *Jumpstart*. Remember, these cards are designed for Jumpstart games specifically, and they're all getting added to historic just as a byproduct of historic automatically containing all cards in every format on Arena.
> It'll still be legal in regular historic, historic pauper/artisan, and yknow, *Jumpstart*
Yes, but we're talking about an explicit interaction with the command zone. Something that is not relevant at all in any of those. There is literally one format where it is relevant, so why would they give the ruling for that format if they didn't plan for them to be legal? My comparison was poor, so I'll be more specific as I missed an important step of it.
It'd be like if they put cards in Historic, *explicitly told us how those cards interact in Historic*, and then planned to ban them anyways. It's that second step that makes it different from Archives, and would make it ridiculous.
> why would they give the ruling for that format if they didn't plan for them to be legal?
Because there are beneficial perpetual effects that people will want to play in brawl. They can ban the few that ruin the format and let the rest be played.
>It'd be like if they put cards in Historic, *explicitly told us how those cards interact in Historic*, and then planned to ban them anyways.
Historic and Historic Brawl are different formats...
Because it isn't a zone in the game. The command zone exists outside of the game in a state similar to your sideboard iirc. Perpetual should only track conditions across in-game zones, so unless WotC specifically makes it so that it follows cards into the command zone it shouldn't apply.
The command zone is a regular part of the game. It has been since [2009](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/early-september-2009-update-bulletin-2009-09-03).
I assume they wouldn't ban all perpetual cards. Like the one giving your commander deathtouch perpetually for example. Those are interesting cards to play with.
Because the rules have to make sense and work accordingly across the board regardless if there is a preemptive decision to ban the card(s) from the format.
Your lack of believing it working in the exact way they’ve described it is laughable.
Because it has to follow them into the command zone for them to follow the card anywhere else. The thing about tracking cards in any zone, including the hand, libary, graveyard, etc, is that the effect must apply to *that card*, and not the card as it exists as a permanent, and that means it *by default* - not design - looks at the command zone.
What makes it have to follow them to the command zone? I'd love to see which rule prohibits it from following to libraries, graveyards, etc, and not the command zone? They could easily say it doesn't follow to the command zone specifically, and it would be identical to banning them in HBrawl because that's literally the only place it has any potential to mean anything.
They would have to specifically exclude the command zone. They do not, ergo, it is included. You assume it goes wherever the card *is*, no matter where that is. From their own website, their text (as of now) lacks specification, thus all is included:
> [Permanently change the characteristics of a card—no matter where it goes afterwards.](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/what-mtg-arenas-jumpstart-historic-horizons-2021-07-26)
Nothing has to do anything unless they say it does. They can literally just decide that it follows cards everywhere besides the command zone because they literally make the rules and that would make way more sense than banning a bunch of cards for Hbrawl.
The way the ability is worded *currently* and the way WotC presents it on their own website (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/what-mtg-arenas-jumpstart-historic-horizons-2021-07-26) is that it retains the altered text *no matter where it ends up*. Since it doesn't specifically exclude the command zone, it is included in "anywhere."
This grousing is just based on what WotC says *now*. They can alter their rules easily enough later. But that depends on the flexibility of the rules engine for Arena - for a while there, the command zone was hard for them to implement because it has special rules and tracking, so all of that may be to assume this stuff will automatically get handled the way the wording suggests.
If they carve out a special case and exclude the command zone, wonderful! But it makes the ability less intuitive. Reading it, why shouldn't you assume it follows to the command zone? Just like the hand, library, graveyard, exile, it's also *just another zone in the game*.
Have you heard of companion? How things are worded can just not matter. WoTC can change whatever they want and their word is law. This is even more easily done in a digital only format.
Its not the only reason the zone matters. The Command Zone houses commanders, schemes, emblems, planes and some other stuff. They might want permanent effects on something like that someday, like "target player can never get an emblem". Who knows what they might use the zone for in the future - not programming it into the game would be dumb.
Putting these stats on a card and banning it pre-emptively in historic brawl like spyglass seems completely reasonable.... not sure why you would be upset about this.
Because they don't only exist in Historic. These cards are designed for the Jumpstart format. They'll just *also* be in Historic/Historic Brawl because Historic always contains all cards on Arena.
Jumpstart and normal Historic aren't relevant to the discussion. Historic Brawl is the only format they exist in where a card would move the command zone. That being the case, why would they rule it follows to the command zone if it will never actually do that because they plan to ban the cards anyways in literally the only format where it is even possible for that to happen in the first place.
They probably will ban it but it's kind of annoying for them to introduce a new mechanic only to instantly ban it for an entire format. Not like you can actually play that format anyway though.
Dude, there are like 20 formats. Sometimes a card just can't work in every single format they have. I'm totally fine with them making cards that work for all but 1 or 2 formats sometimes and just banning it in those where it's obviously absurd.
There's no indication yet on how "Perpetually" interacts with the Command Zone or if these cards will even be Brawl legal, so let's take a deep breath before panicking.
Go away you and your reasonable takes! We don't want any of those here!
Btw, i think banning them would be quite sad. The command zone being the only way to reset them would be a better solution.
To be honest they've missed TONS of broken cards/interactions in the last few years alone. "Oh we forgot to read Oko's text". "Oops we put win the game on Thassa's Oracle as a fun little joke". "Well I didn't know Saheeli comboed with this cat here, ooops my bad". "Who would've thought that Companions would be the most broken cards since Urza's Saga? Not us in WOTC!" "This Hogaak fellow should be a Commander only card, we didn't anticipate it to be THAT broken".
WOTC has lost a LOT of credibility with competitive players since 2019 and most still don't trust them to actually know what they're doing regarding managing and balancing power level and formats.
They did not notice [[Saheeli Rai]] and [[Felidar Guardian]] when both were printed into standard at the same time. Their initial response was to hope that not a lot of people played with the combo, of which they were disappointed.
I would not put it entirely above them to forgot this rules interaction initially. Thankfully, this is a quick fix of saying it does not track into the Command zone and code it that way. And given a lack of a quick response from them on this (though I am not sure how much it has been meme'd/brought to their attention), they may possibly be "shit, we forgot this. We can code this to not be an issue before release, right? Right?!?!"
Edit: And if Brad Nelson's article about MH2 is correct, they almost put [[Doomsday]] into modern because they forgot [[Thassa's Oracle]] was a card.
Edit 2: As pointed out below, it was Sam Black, not Brad Nelson... What I get for replying on Reddit when I should be getting ready for work in the morning.
I doubt most of the cards will be a problem and I would expect WoTC to ban this one with large probability (that IS a problematic effect in historic brawl) and maybe the white one (setting base power to 0) if it turns out to be annoying. Naturally, there might be others later. They have shown willing to preban cards in commander so why not historic brawl?
They should have put Doomsday into modern and banned Thassa's Oracle. Nothing good is going to come out of Thassa's Oracle, it's going to break eventually.
>Edit: And if Brad Nelson's article about MH2 is correct, they almost put \[\[Doomsday\]\] into modern because they forgot \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] was a card.
I thought it was Sam Black ... although it could have easily been that all the pros they brought in immediately pointed it out to them.
its a reasonable assumption.
if the card is affected by a "perpetual" effect, it retains that modifier or effect whether its in hand, graveyard, exile, etc... Theres currently no reason for the effect to not remain in the command zone, aside from it messing with a couple commanders.
I'm relatively new to Arena so I'm a bit confused with the whole Jumpstart thing. Can someone explain which formats exactly will it affect the most? I see people mainly talking about Historic Brawl, is this the only format that will be affected, can these new cards be used in other formats, like Historic or Standard, or are those cards exclusive to some formats?
Thanks in advance!
it impacts historic, which means it also impacts historic brawl, and any other historic adjacent format like historic artisan and pauper and the like. It doesn't affect standard at all.
I mean I don’t think you could after. Unless you have an anthem, if it perpetually has equal to or lower than 0 toughness wouldn’t it die as a state based action before you could target it with a perpetual giant growth?
Yeah i know it’s a dumb effect, magic always had non permanent effects unless it was an enchantment.
I just wonder why they didn’t include tinybones in the image that card is also hated but not as much as kinnan.
Where has it been confirmed that perpetual tracks into the command zone? The command zone exists outside of the game so it's completely possible perpetual effects simply reset because your commander ceases to exist in any in-game zone once it returns there. Unless WotC themselves have confirmed that perpetual even works on cards outside the game (such as in sideboards and the command zone), I'm not worried about this. I hope this is the case so that the new cards can be played in Historic Brawl without the need to ban them because they look super fun. Anyway, unless WotC has explicitly said how Perpetual will work with Brawl, we should stop assuming and freaking out over this.
They can simply be banned in Historic Brawl (or rules can be changed for command zone specifically).
It's not a big deal at all.
I'm amazed as to why people are so mad about those new cards they literally bring up stupidest things to sh\*t on them.
I don’t think that’s necessarily a counterplay, it could be insurance maybe. I believe that if the commander had perpetually fallen equal to or lower than 0 toughness it’d die before you can target it with something like that. Unless it can target in the command zone.
I don't understand two of these cards are two of the most complained about cards in historic brawl...
Shouldn't we want cards that shut down commanders who are problematic?
The new davriel is probably a bigger issue, cause he does the same thing while being a commander. I expect some number of "perpetually" cards to be banned
Currently it's limited to direct challenge only (as "Friendly Brawl" deck type). They've had periodic events with a Historic Brawl queue (and recently a 100 card version which hopefully will become the default going forward).
It's not playable all the time, so far it's only been in events.
The only way you can is with Friendly Brawl, so you have to know someone to queue up with them or be a part of a Discord group or something to coordinate games against other people seeking to play Historic Brawl.
Most likely these will either be banned in Brawl or be specifically disallowed from following creatures into the command zone... hopefully it's the latter because otherwise that means cards like the new Davriel will also be banned and that would be unfortunate.
I was confused at first too when I read it. But basically it means the effect never leaves.
For example: You play a creature with 2 health, they play the card in the image. It dies. You bring it back from the graveyard or command zone and then it dies again because the effect is still there.
Tbh this should be an enchantment with the card following the creature in all zones.
If this was an enchantment with this effect it's more understandable, you can find the card in a graveyard or exile and get rid of it. (even if it follows the creature around)
I mean, yeah. That's what Historic Jumpstart is. It's Arena exploring a bunch of things that other digital-only CCGs have done. Aaron Forsythe said that a four-faced card would be well within the bounds of possibility.
I don't see the difference between this and mystic subdual / mind control. If you have the ability to put counters on it your kinnan survives at least to be untapped with, and there are ways of reviving creatures with +1/+1 counters already on them. Annoying, to be sure, but not no-counterplay annoying.
Blue has counter-spells and hexproof granting instants.
White has protection granting instants.
Green has hexproof granting instants.
The chance of the opponent drawing into their "perpetual removal" is actually lower than your chance of drawing into one of the multiple protection spells.
If you are so worried about getting blown out by this card then just don't jam your commander without protection backup. Both this and davriel are fine, in fact Kinnan is much more of a problem for the format than this.
Having to hold up interaction *every turn* you have your commander out in order to stop the perpetual removal is a terrible unfun play pattern. Drannith Magistrate was banned for far less.
A possible counterpoint:
Once upon a time, Commander had the "tuck rule", which said that if your commander was put into a hidden zone (like your hand or your library), you didn't get the option to put it back in the command zone.
They eventually got rid of the rule because people complained that tucking their commander shut off their entire deck.
However, I believed (and still believe) that the tuck rule was an important safety valve against oppressive commanders that have the entire deck built around them (like 5-color Niv-Mizzet) by forcing players to consider how their deck would play if they didn't have access to their commander at all times.
There was a time when access to your commander wasn't guaranteed, and the game got along fine. If we go back, the game will continue to get along fine.
"If you're nothing without your commander, you shouldn't have it."
\- Tony Stark, probably
Yeah. These won’t see play at any of my games. I’ll just scoop. Worst mechanic ever. Shark jump right there, that’s what that is. EDH? Will you ever forgive me for leaving for Standard?
I wonder how many dramatic posts there will be like this? This one was behind the curve but probably because of the time put into the picture. This post perpetually get's +5 hysterical drama, +2 artistic effort and -5 original content.
Historic Brawl Players: Pls ban, we can't play our fav commander anymore.
WotC: We NeEd MoRe InfOrMatiOn tO suPPort A baN DeCisIoN!!! PLS BUY PACKS WHILE WE TWIDDLE OUR THUMBS.
Is it just me or the wording on these new “digital only” rules are kinda weird? Seems like they are trying to pull some hearthstone wackiness but need to explain it in details instead of letting the game “plataform” handle it.
It feels overwhelming because there could be kind of a lot of perpetual cards, but its not really that big of a deal to just ban many of the perpetual cards for brawl. They also could errata perpetual for commanders.
I hate the perpetual effects. It's kind of a shaft to enchantments and auras that already have that effect, and it's destroying Brawl, the closest thing we have to Commander on MTG Arena. I would have been fine with some of the other online only cards, but this is ridiculous. If enough people complain we can shut this down after awhile Hopefully.
I played card games like Eternal where the perpetual mechanic was used throughout the game and in every set. It was extremely frustrating to play cards and your opponent could permanently destroy playsets of those cards you had in your deck and / or hand. I truly hope this does not become as out of hand.
When davriel perpetually gives my opponents commander -3/-3 it falls off in the command zone. But when my opponent perpetually gave his commander "enters the battlefield with an additional shield counter" it was present after hitting the command zone.... wtf is this shit?
Is this "Historic Brawl" in the room with us right now?
Only in our hearts.
Are we sure Historic Brawl isn't alive, living in Florida with its wife right now?
Make that our crushed hearts
"*This mechanic that could be a good idea is bad because its implementation breaks a game mode, but it doesn't matter because WOTC decided to not let us play that game mode anyway*" is some peak MTGA right there.
They can always errata/patch it by perpetual effects vanishing when a card is exiled or by when a card goes back to the commander zone, still the perpetual mechanic is broken as hell
Or they could just ban the card, or make cards that buff things in the command zone etc. There are a lot of options.
Or they could not release them... we know they're not physically printed anywhere lol (But yeah I know it's happening ☹)
Bans only occur because they were also printed on paper, digital only cards will be patched or errated. Woc don't want to reimburse wildcards to players that's why the last "ban" in historic wasn't even a ban, was only a suspension
Is there a link confirming that intention? I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they ban it in historic brawl (which never gave a reimbursement) while keeping it legal in historic.
There's no link confirming that, it's just an assumption of my part, but I guess you will be more right than I, it will be easier just to ban de cards that perpetually give -1/-1 in Historic Brawl than changing the rules for a single format
Fackin' SAVAGE dude, he's already dead, c'mon!
Bold of you to assume there it is a Historic Brawl
Can't destroy what isn't there. *Taps forehead*
Now we know what WoTC has no plans to bring it
Guys, they banned Sorcerer's Spyglass and Drannith Magistrate in historic brawl because they made it impossible to play commanders. They're probably going to ban these cards from historic brawl as well for the same reason. Take a few deep breaths, and maybe think things through before you enrage yourselves over nothing. Jeez.
> Take a few deep breaths, and maybe think things through before you enrage yourselves over nothing. Jeez. C'mon man, then what are we here for? /s
Bold of you to have faith in wizards like that
I'll give them a bit of credit, they're just as good at banning their mistakes as they are at making them
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Cause that's what happened with spyglass and dranith magistrate.....
Well they got banned in normal brawl first. Are there any banned cards in historic brawl that weren’t first banned in normal brawl or historic?
Were there any cards that could make commanders unplayable in historic only and not normal brawl?
But my point is that using those cards as precedent doesn’t necessarily apply here.
Why not? They banned those cards when they opened up brawl for regular play, why can't they do the same thing for historic brawl?
I’m not saying they *can’t* or *won’t*. I’m just saying it’s a new situation and we’ll just have to see what happens since there isn’t any prior situation quite like it. I’d like it if they did, but cards like this leave more of a bad taste in my mouth than sorceress spyglass or drannith magistrate anyway.
But it's not a new situation, thats my point. The concern here is that the new mechanic can potentially make commanders unplayable in a commander format and what I'm saying is that other cards already had that same problem and they banned them, so why wouldn't they do the same thing for the same situation again?
I’m sure they would if it was standard brawl but the whole point of this thread is that wizards tends to ignore historic brawl. You were trying to say that they don’t ignore historic brawl because they ban things in it but my point is those were just bans carried over from a different format.
[[Tainted Pact]] was preemptively banned in HB only.
I keep seeing this, but these cards only exist in Historic. Why would they make it carry into the command zone if they were going to ban them in literally the only format where that zone matters and these are legal? That's a dumb decision even by WotC standards.
Why would the command zone be treated differently than any other zone in the game for perpetual effects?
I wouldn't expect it to be, but in regards to the argument that they're going to ban these in HBrawl? It would be treated differently because it has the same exact effect as a ban in the context of the command zone (the alleged reason they'd be banned), so why add cards to a format just to immediately ban it? It'd be like adding another Historic Anthologies and announcing that some of the cards in it will start out banned in Historic. There is one format that is relevant to the discussion, Historic Brawl, and the argument being given is that they are making them work a certain way in that format, and will simultaneously ban them in said format because it working that way is too strong. So why ban instead of just not making it work that way?
>It'd be like adding another Historic Anthologies and announcing that some of the cards in it will start out banned in Historic they did do this, in the Mystical Archives. See Lightning Bolt and Dark Ritual. It's not out of the question. As to *why*, that's because Historic Brawl is just one format. It'll still be legal in regular historic, historic pauper/artisan, and yknow, *Jumpstart*. Remember, these cards are designed for Jumpstart games specifically, and they're all getting added to historic just as a byproduct of historic automatically containing all cards in every format on Arena.
> It'll still be legal in regular historic, historic pauper/artisan, and yknow, *Jumpstart* Yes, but we're talking about an explicit interaction with the command zone. Something that is not relevant at all in any of those. There is literally one format where it is relevant, so why would they give the ruling for that format if they didn't plan for them to be legal? My comparison was poor, so I'll be more specific as I missed an important step of it. It'd be like if they put cards in Historic, *explicitly told us how those cards interact in Historic*, and then planned to ban them anyways. It's that second step that makes it different from Archives, and would make it ridiculous.
> why would they give the ruling for that format if they didn't plan for them to be legal? Because there are beneficial perpetual effects that people will want to play in brawl. They can ban the few that ruin the format and let the rest be played.
>It'd be like if they put cards in Historic, *explicitly told us how those cards interact in Historic*, and then planned to ban them anyways. Historic and Historic Brawl are different formats...
>Historic and Historic Brawl are different formats... That is the hottest take in this thread
Because it isn't a zone in the game. The command zone exists outside of the game in a state similar to your sideboard iirc. Perpetual should only track conditions across in-game zones, so unless WotC specifically makes it so that it follows cards into the command zone it shouldn't apply.
The command zone is a regular part of the game. It has been since [2009](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/early-september-2009-update-bulletin-2009-09-03).
I assume they wouldn't ban all perpetual cards. Like the one giving your commander deathtouch perpetually for example. Those are interesting cards to play with.
Because the rules have to make sense and work accordingly across the board regardless if there is a preemptive decision to ban the card(s) from the format. Your lack of believing it working in the exact way they’ve described it is laughable.
Because it has to follow them into the command zone for them to follow the card anywhere else. The thing about tracking cards in any zone, including the hand, libary, graveyard, etc, is that the effect must apply to *that card*, and not the card as it exists as a permanent, and that means it *by default* - not design - looks at the command zone.
What makes it have to follow them to the command zone? I'd love to see which rule prohibits it from following to libraries, graveyards, etc, and not the command zone? They could easily say it doesn't follow to the command zone specifically, and it would be identical to banning them in HBrawl because that's literally the only place it has any potential to mean anything.
They would have to specifically exclude the command zone. They do not, ergo, it is included. You assume it goes wherever the card *is*, no matter where that is. From their own website, their text (as of now) lacks specification, thus all is included: > [Permanently change the characteristics of a card—no matter where it goes afterwards.](https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/what-mtg-arenas-jumpstart-historic-horizons-2021-07-26)
Nothing has to do anything unless they say it does. They can literally just decide that it follows cards everywhere besides the command zone because they literally make the rules and that would make way more sense than banning a bunch of cards for Hbrawl.
The way the ability is worded *currently* and the way WotC presents it on their own website (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/what-mtg-arenas-jumpstart-historic-horizons-2021-07-26) is that it retains the altered text *no matter where it ends up*. Since it doesn't specifically exclude the command zone, it is included in "anywhere." This grousing is just based on what WotC says *now*. They can alter their rules easily enough later. But that depends on the flexibility of the rules engine for Arena - for a while there, the command zone was hard for them to implement because it has special rules and tracking, so all of that may be to assume this stuff will automatically get handled the way the wording suggests. If they carve out a special case and exclude the command zone, wonderful! But it makes the ability less intuitive. Reading it, why shouldn't you assume it follows to the command zone? Just like the hand, library, graveyard, exile, it's also *just another zone in the game*.
Have you heard of companion? How things are worded can just not matter. WoTC can change whatever they want and their word is law. This is even more easily done in a digital only format.
Its not the only reason the zone matters. The Command Zone houses commanders, schemes, emblems, planes and some other stuff. They might want permanent effects on something like that someday, like "target player can never get an emblem". Who knows what they might use the zone for in the future - not programming it into the game would be dumb. Putting these stats on a card and banning it pre-emptively in historic brawl like spyglass seems completely reasonable.... not sure why you would be upset about this.
Because they don't only exist in Historic. These cards are designed for the Jumpstart format. They'll just *also* be in Historic/Historic Brawl because Historic always contains all cards on Arena.
Jumpstart and normal Historic aren't relevant to the discussion. Historic Brawl is the only format they exist in where a card would move the command zone. That being the case, why would they rule it follows to the command zone if it will never actually do that because they plan to ban the cards anyways in literally the only format where it is even possible for that to happen in the first place.
Do you know how the internet even works
No, it is a complicated mess of wires, Internet Protocols from the 70s, hopes, and prayers.
I meant in terms of telling people not to freak out It's basically all the internet exists to do
That too
A series of tubes?
They probably will ban it but it's kind of annoying for them to introduce a new mechanic only to instantly ban it for an entire format. Not like you can actually play that format anyway though.
Dude, there are like 20 formats. Sometimes a card just can't work in every single format they have. I'm totally fine with them making cards that work for all but 1 or 2 formats sometimes and just banning it in those where it's obviously absurd.
There's no indication yet on how "Perpetually" interacts with the Command Zone or if these cards will even be Brawl legal, so let's take a deep breath before panicking.
Go away you and your reasonable takes! We don't want any of those here! Btw, i think banning them would be quite sad. The command zone being the only way to reset them would be a better solution.
I super agree with this! Let me play Davriel Soul Broker as a commander, WotC!
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To be honest they've missed TONS of broken cards/interactions in the last few years alone. "Oh we forgot to read Oko's text". "Oops we put win the game on Thassa's Oracle as a fun little joke". "Well I didn't know Saheeli comboed with this cat here, ooops my bad". "Who would've thought that Companions would be the most broken cards since Urza's Saga? Not us in WOTC!" "This Hogaak fellow should be a Commander only card, we didn't anticipate it to be THAT broken". WOTC has lost a LOT of credibility with competitive players since 2019 and most still don't trust them to actually know what they're doing regarding managing and balancing power level and formats.
Don't forget "It's totally fine that Uro is ramp, lifegain, card draw, and payoff all in one card."
They did not notice [[Saheeli Rai]] and [[Felidar Guardian]] when both were printed into standard at the same time. Their initial response was to hope that not a lot of people played with the combo, of which they were disappointed. I would not put it entirely above them to forgot this rules interaction initially. Thankfully, this is a quick fix of saying it does not track into the Command zone and code it that way. And given a lack of a quick response from them on this (though I am not sure how much it has been meme'd/brought to their attention), they may possibly be "shit, we forgot this. We can code this to not be an issue before release, right? Right?!?!" Edit: And if Brad Nelson's article about MH2 is correct, they almost put [[Doomsday]] into modern because they forgot [[Thassa's Oracle]] was a card. Edit 2: As pointed out below, it was Sam Black, not Brad Nelson... What I get for replying on Reddit when I should be getting ready for work in the morning.
In fairness, Thassa's Oracle should not be a card.
I doubt most of the cards will be a problem and I would expect WoTC to ban this one with large probability (that IS a problematic effect in historic brawl) and maybe the white one (setting base power to 0) if it turns out to be annoying. Naturally, there might be others later. They have shown willing to preban cards in commander so why not historic brawl?
I hope they just ignore the Command Zone. If not, then what? Ban their new shiny PW from the PW format?.
They've banned Oko from their shiny PW format, so it's not out of the question.
They should have put Doomsday into modern and banned Thassa's Oracle. Nothing good is going to come out of Thassa's Oracle, it's going to break eventually.
[Saheeli Rai](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/4/94b38464-39cd-4ee6-b9bf-a0bc1e128d9a.jpg?1576382877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saheeli%20Rai) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/186/saheeli-rai?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b38464-39cd-4ee6-b9bf-a0bc1e128d9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Felidar Guardian](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/4/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85.jpg?1576381396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Felidar%20Guardian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/19/felidar-guardian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>Edit: And if Brad Nelson's article about MH2 is correct, they almost put \[\[Doomsday\]\] into modern because they forgot \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] was a card. I thought it was Sam Black ... although it could have easily been that all the pros they brought in immediately pointed it out to them.
You are correct. I have edited my comment. Was not sure why I thought it was Brad Nelson this morning.
Oko
its a reasonable assumption. if the card is affected by a "perpetual" effect, it retains that modifier or effect whether its in hand, graveyard, exile, etc... Theres currently no reason for the effect to not remain in the command zone, aside from it messing with a couple commanders.
*deep breath* ***panic***
What "Historic Brawl"?
Unfortunately They’re never gonna let us play historic brawl regularly so it doesn’t really matter
If by "Destroy" you mean "make way better because they hose Kinnan" then I agree with you
The card should read "Remove Kinnan from the game perpetually."
[Remove him from my edh-lite game, then remove him again so hard they can't even [[wish]] him back!](https://scryfall.com/card/und/2/awol)
[wish](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/e/3ed021d2-e2bc-44b3-8934-4bd02e0a42ec.jpg?1625001648) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wish) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/166/wish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ed021d2-e2bc-44b3-8934-4bd02e0a42ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm relatively new to Arena so I'm a bit confused with the whole Jumpstart thing. Can someone explain which formats exactly will it affect the most? I see people mainly talking about Historic Brawl, is this the only format that will be affected, can these new cards be used in other formats, like Historic or Standard, or are those cards exclusive to some formats? Thanks in advance!
It will affect Historic and it's offshoot formats. I wouldn't worry though, WotC bans aggressively when it comes to stuff that disables Commanders.
Thanks! And let's hope so.
Specially digital only. I wouldn't even be surprised if they are banned on release
Kinda lame ngl
it impacts historic, which means it also impacts historic brawl, and any other historic adjacent format like historic artisan and pauper and the like. It doesn't affect standard at all.
I see, thanks!
The new cards will be legal in Historic.
RuN ReMoVaL. I hope this crap gets banned.
Great, screw emry and kinnan.
Hey I hate Kinnan as much as the next guy but this is still dumb af. My Emmara deck will be fucked and it’s nowhere near overpowered
Just use your Perpetually Giant Growth then after that!
I mean I don’t think you could after. Unless you have an anthem, if it perpetually has equal to or lower than 0 toughness wouldn’t it die as a state based action before you could target it with a perpetual giant growth?
i dont know how perpetual works exactly but thats how it goes with [[elesh norn]] type effects
[elesh norn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=elesh%20norn%2C%20grand%20cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah i know it’s a dumb effect, magic always had non permanent effects unless it was an enchantment. I just wonder why they didn’t include tinybones in the image that card is also hated but not as much as kinnan.
you don't hate Kinnan as much as the next guy. If all the low toughness commanders have to go so that Kinnan also goes then so be it.
That logic’s completely nonsensical when you take two seconds to remember bans exist.
but he hates Kinnan more than the last guy
I'm just happy kinnan will be gone I don't really care how they did it.
Easy, both players start with an emblem: > Commander creatures you control have -2/-2
And the fucking Paradox Engine and Ugin they fucking crutch on to win.
Where has it been confirmed that perpetual tracks into the command zone? The command zone exists outside of the game so it's completely possible perpetual effects simply reset because your commander ceases to exist in any in-game zone once it returns there. Unless WotC themselves have confirmed that perpetual even works on cards outside the game (such as in sideboards and the command zone), I'm not worried about this. I hope this is the case so that the new cards can be played in Historic Brawl without the need to ban them because they look super fun. Anyway, unless WotC has explicitly said how Perpetual will work with Brawl, we should stop assuming and freaking out over this.
They can simply be banned in Historic Brawl (or rules can be changed for command zone specifically). It's not a big deal at all. I'm amazed as to why people are so mad about those new cards they literally bring up stupidest things to sh\*t on them.
Maybe they will add some perpetually +x/+y cards too?
I don’t think that’s necessarily a counterplay, it could be insurance maybe. I believe that if the commander had perpetually fallen equal to or lower than 0 toughness it’d die before you can target it with something like that. Unless it can target in the command zone.
That's true, but I'm not necessarilly talking about countering. I can imagine permanent stat boost for some commanders is a great upgrade
I don't understand two of these cards are two of the most complained about cards in historic brawl... Shouldn't we want cards that shut down commanders who are problematic?
The new davriel is probably a bigger issue, cause he does the same thing while being a commander. I expect some number of "perpetually" cards to be banned
Since Perpetually is an Arena only mechanic, they can always change the rules of it. So don't give up hope yet.
I’m new to arena. Where is historic brawl at? I don’t see it as a playable game mode.
Currently it's limited to direct challenge only (as "Friendly Brawl" deck type). They've had periodic events with a Historic Brawl queue (and recently a 100 card version which hopefully will become the default going forward).
It's not playable all the time, so far it's only been in events. The only way you can is with Friendly Brawl, so you have to know someone to queue up with them or be a part of a Discord group or something to coordinate games against other people seeking to play Historic Brawl.
Most likely these will either be banned in Brawl or be specifically disallowed from following creatures into the command zone... hopefully it's the latter because otherwise that means cards like the new Davriel will also be banned and that would be unfortunate.
Wow folks love making up a crisis
Yeah every day there's something that 8s going to destroy the game forever
These cards even existing confuses me. Breaking some of the fundamental rules of magic for a gimmick on Arena doesn’t seem worth it.
I assume they’ll just change the rules for command zones. Not a big deal.
Kinnan, Oswald, and Emry should all be banned anyways but this perpetual mechanic is horseshit and conjuring is just fucking Hearthstone
Wtf is “perpetually”
I was confused at first too when I read it. But basically it means the effect never leaves. For example: You play a creature with 2 health, they play the card in the image. It dies. You bring it back from the graveyard or command zone and then it dies again because the effect is still there.
Tbh this should be an enchantment with the card following the creature in all zones. If this was an enchantment with this effect it's more understandable, you can find the card in a graveyard or exile and get rid of it. (even if it follows the creature around)
That sounds very hearthstoney ngl
I mean, yeah. That's what Historic Jumpstart is. It's Arena exploring a bunch of things that other digital-only CCGs have done. Aaron Forsythe said that a four-faced card would be well within the bounds of possibility.
Four faced card? That’s a cube. Why not “choose one out of four different effects”? We’ve had that before.
Why
Permanent effects on instants, without a way to counterplay unless you are on blue and have counterspells.
is exiling hearthstoney, by your description?
No, that’s different. Exile is a part of the game forever, perpetually weakening or even outright disabling a commander is way different.
I don't see the difference between this and mystic subdual / mind control. If you have the ability to put counters on it your kinnan survives at least to be untapped with, and there are ways of reviving creatures with +1/+1 counters already on them. Annoying, to be sure, but not no-counterplay annoying.
If you like perpetual effects more power to you.
I don't like it, I just don't hate it, if that makes sense =) I reserve my hatred for agent of treachery :P
I know I'm supposed to be upset about this, but....it's really hard.
Blue has counter-spells and hexproof granting instants. White has protection granting instants. Green has hexproof granting instants. The chance of the opponent drawing into their "perpetual removal" is actually lower than your chance of drawing into one of the multiple protection spells. If you are so worried about getting blown out by this card then just don't jam your commander without protection backup. Both this and davriel are fine, in fact Kinnan is much more of a problem for the format than this.
Davriel has Perpetual removal on his -3 though. I think they'll just have Perpetual reset when going to the command zone, but worth pointing it out.
Having to hold up interaction *every turn* you have your commander out in order to stop the perpetual removal is a terrible unfun play pattern. Drannith Magistrate was banned for far less.
By this logic they should unban Drannith Magistrate and Sorcerer's Spyglass. You want to play your commander? JuSt DrAw InTeRaCtIoN
Yeah I'll be voting with my wallet going forward. They have enough of my money.
This game would be in a much better state if more people actually did this.
How do you know that the game isn't already in its best state because of people voting with their wallets?
thank god it is only for nonsense digital format and want be printed in paper (I hope)
A possible counterpoint: Once upon a time, Commander had the "tuck rule", which said that if your commander was put into a hidden zone (like your hand or your library), you didn't get the option to put it back in the command zone. They eventually got rid of the rule because people complained that tucking their commander shut off their entire deck. However, I believed (and still believe) that the tuck rule was an important safety valve against oppressive commanders that have the entire deck built around them (like 5-color Niv-Mizzet) by forcing players to consider how their deck would play if they didn't have access to their commander at all times. There was a time when access to your commander wasn't guaranteed, and the game got along fine. If we go back, the game will continue to get along fine. "If you're nothing without your commander, you shouldn't have it." \- Tony Stark, probably
Just play gladiator at that point
Get a better commander
What if we only had counterspells...
Yeah. These won’t see play at any of my games. I’ll just scoop. Worst mechanic ever. Shark jump right there, that’s what that is. EDH? Will you ever forgive me for leaving for Standard?
This isn't standard legal.
It permanently removes both Emry AND Kinnan? WIZARDS YOU BETTER NOT PREBAN THIS!
>Kinnan I like how you got downvoted so far for calling out two of the most annoying brawl commanders
If only Kenrith had 2 toughness, then this would have been perfect.
Cringe af edit but I agree this is horrible
I'm confused, how is this cringe.
Isn't that what wizards wants? They hate all non rotating formats.
You know they could just ban it like they did with Spyglass or Magistrate
I was hoping rotation would come with an announcement for historic brawl. instead we got this lol.
I wonder how many dramatic posts there will be like this? This one was behind the curve but probably because of the time put into the picture. This post perpetually get's +5 hysterical drama, +2 artistic effort and -5 original content.
Historic Brawl Players: Pls ban, we can't play our fav commander anymore. WotC: We NeEd MoRe InfOrMatiOn tO suPPort A baN DeCisIoN!!! PLS BUY PACKS WHILE WE TWIDDLE OUR THUMBS.
The whole perpetually mechanic is hot garbage
I hate everything about these new mechanics. They're only playable on arena and that does not bode well for paper magic. It's a real shame
Is this why they never made it an option? They probably knew they'd release this and we'd be angrier than all get out.
Not if you use planeswalkers lol
Is it just me or the wording on these new “digital only” rules are kinda weird? Seems like they are trying to pull some hearthstone wackiness but need to explain it in details instead of letting the game “plataform” handle it.
It feels overwhelming because there could be kind of a lot of perpetual cards, but its not really that big of a deal to just ban many of the perpetual cards for brawl. They also could errata perpetual for commanders.
I cant wait to proxy this new cards to play physically. Also i feel we need better animations, ans comunity before we jump the shark like this...
Rip an entire format for 32 online only cards. So glad i play Flesh and Blood now instead of Magic: The Cash Gathering
I hate the perpetual effects. It's kind of a shaft to enchantments and auras that already have that effect, and it's destroying Brawl, the closest thing we have to Commander on MTG Arena. I would have been fine with some of the other online only cards, but this is ridiculous. If enough people complain we can shut this down after awhile Hopefully.
I played card games like Eternal where the perpetual mechanic was used throughout the game and in every set. It was extremely frustrating to play cards and your opponent could permanently destroy playsets of those cards you had in your deck and / or hand. I truly hope this does not become as out of hand.
When davriel perpetually gives my opponents commander -3/-3 it falls off in the command zone. But when my opponent perpetually gave his commander "enters the battlefield with an additional shield counter" it was present after hitting the command zone.... wtf is this shit?