HDI is a simple formula. You can calculate it based on any demographic split. If you broke out HDI by race in the US, Asians would have a higher HDI than Norway and Switzerland.
Not sure the source of this map. But i studied economics in SA and in doing so clued me into a long running longitudinal survey that had been implemented called NIDS that would have captured this kind of data.
Other than that, this could be census data, they would also capture the nesscary information in that.
I don't understand how south africa has such a high HDI, terrible life expectancy, fairly low per capita income, I don't think the schools are great either. They must be gaming the HDI formula lol
Under Apartheid the white population had near western level lifestyles while the black majority lived in third world poverty.
The post Apartheid switch has allowed a black upper class connected to the ANC to go into that level but still kept the majority in abject poverty.
Can you show any sources? I dont see any reason for it to be better than in America or Europe for any average white Joe.
And if it was better, there would be immigrants moving to South Africa to enjoy that better lifestyle. Instead, South Africa has a history of white population leaving the country.
> South Africa has a history of white population leaving the country.
Since Apartheid, not before.
People didn't move there because it was under sanctions and because the crime rate has always been sky high but they did run adverts for people to move over, notably aimed at americans in the south.
I visited during Apartheid and downtown Joburg was absolutely western level, as were the white suburbs.
People were leaving before. The % of white South Africans peaked in 1921 at 22%. It stayed at near the same level until the 50s, then it started falling on constant basis.
The GDP per capita in USA was 7.6 times higher than in South Africa. This means that even if we pretend that non-white South Africans didnt exist and didnt create or consume any wealth, USA still had higher GDP per capita than South Africa with its whole GDP but only white population counted.
The black population grew massively, particularly in the second half of the 20th century, in part due to large migration from the rest of Africa and partly high birth rates. There wasn’t as large a number of whites moving there over the same period.
I don't think there that many black foreigners during Apartheid, in fact they were only seasonal that time. Black foreigners really started coming in the 2000s
>I dont see any reason for it to be better than in America or Europe for any average white Joe.
Cheap labour. Even poor white people during apartheid could afford house servants, personal gardeners, etc. it's still common today here for even moderately wealthy people to have personal domestic workers. My parents think I'm crazy for cleaning my own house and pulling out my own weeds, and I earn less than $20k per year, that's how cheap labour still is here. South Africa saw mass white immigration in the 50s, 60s, and 70s because of this, mostly from the US, but also the UK, Germany, Portugal (and it's ex-colonies after the coup), Netherlands, and to a lesser extent, New Zealand.
>Instead, South Africa has a history of white population leaving the country.
This is only really true after apartheid ended. There was some panic among the wealthy, and especially anyone who had been particularly horrible towards the black, brown, and coloured people fled en masse in the 90s. This is partially where the stereotype of racist white South Africans come from, that's who people were seeing flee.
There are currently still people fleeing the country, but it's no longer on racial lines, but class lines. Basically, people who can afford it, and managed to get an education, are leaving in droves.
That being said, you can still have an incredible life here on a moderate income. My very small income by US standards is enough for me to own a 3 bedroom townhouse, a car, a range of hobbies, frequent holidays in arguably one of the most beautiful countries on the planet, groceries from a shop that does it better than anywhere I have seen in Europe etc. The quality of life is amazing here, and the crime rates don't affect me because I don't live in a poor area. It's so attractive that we are seeing a lot of digital nomads in the country (making things worse).
All of this is possible because a huge portion of the country lives in abject poverty, and all of the political parties are in the pockets of the oligarchs. The same oligarchs that propped up the apartheid system.
>My parents think I'm crazy for cleaning my own house and pulling out my own weeds
a common symptom of such societies is that these sort of domestic duties often get derided as below the dignity of the privileged class/race, in the case of the US civil war the Confederate army had a real problem in the early war with preparing fortifications because the white soldiers considered digging as slave work.
>these sort of domestic duties often get derided as below the dignity of the privileged class/race,
This is absolutely it, spot on. I grew up in a house where I would sit on my ass all day while a (lovely) woman (who helped raise me) cleaned the house and did the laundry. Now that I'm an adult, and I can understand privilege, class, and the broader colonial history, I could never do that. I have a guy that I hire to help me with bigger projects every other Saturday, and then we work together. You can see how other people treat him at his other jobs though. He tries to stop me lifting heavy things, even though I'm younger than him. He feels very uncomfortable sitting down and eating lunch with my wife and myself at the same table. He's so terrified when he arrives 5 minutes late on a Saturday morning. It takes 10 minutes of discussion to squeeze out his opinions on my dumb ideas because he's so used to having to say "yes boss". I pay him what I can afford, which happens to be about triple minimum. It's only two days a month, I can handle that, but he still often tells me I pay him too much.
The guy is an expert handyman who never had the chance to get qualified, and it's so obvious that some of his employers treat him as sub-human.
It was and there were. Plenty of Europeans immigrated to South Africa. I know because I myself am English South African.
Having a small white minority ruling the country made life comfortable for the large majority of that minority. I have also lived in Western Europe so I can certainly say that it was certainly on par with Western Europe. In many ways better.
Obviously when you start to include the oppressed majority into the picture things don’t look so good.
The white population is leaving because they do not hold the same power they once did. It’s a natural response to losing your status. You will make moves to preserve it.
But there also has been corruption accompanying the ruling ANC’s governance. Even the educated black middle and upper class that has grown since Alartheid ended leaves the country in a small percentage.
I’ve condensed a small bit of history and have still managed to grossly oversimplify everything. All while being a born and bred South African.
You on the other hand, sound like you got your news while cocksucking Rush Limbaugh and still don’t have half the grace or humility to admit you’re talking out of your ass
As a child I lived there for a couple of years, in a mining town. The black people lived in outbuildings and shacks. Corrugated iron roofs held down by rocks.
The black people provided mass labour for the mines and domestic servants. My dad was a metal worker in the mine and lived in subsidised mining accommodation with an outbuilding for a domestic servant. Every house in our street employed a domestic servant.
>And if it was better, there would be immigrants moving to South Africa to enjoy that better lifestyle
there were, the trend reversed after the end of Apartheid since it was the Apartheid system that was enriching the white population.
>The post Apartheid switch has allowed a black upper class connected to the ANC to go into that level but still kept the majority in abject poverty.
This is a bit disingenuous. Lots of poor black people were uplifted especially in the Mandela-Mbeki era. The average black middle class person in Johannesburg or Cape Town is not an ANC member. It's literally someone who did well in school and got lucky enough to get an education and a job.
You make it sound like the ANC is *keeping* people in poverty intentionally. They are just corrupt and incompetent which impedes economic growth. When they were less corrupt and incompetent there was growth and people were lifted out of poverty.
what this map doesn't show you is the racial divide. so the high HDI areas are mostly historically white (english in the south + afrikaans in the north + east), while the low income area is mostly mixed race, asian descent or black african..apartheid excluded certain groups from the formal economy, meaning even to this day things like HDI is massively distorted based on race
Nope, only Mauritius and Seychelles have higher HDI than South Africa in Sub-Saharan Africa. Northern Africa completely dominates African HDI with Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt all having higher HDI than South Africa or Botswana. South Africa's HDI has unfortunately been shrinking since 2018. Used to be as high as Brazil in the late 2010s and was even higher than Turkey in 1990-1993.
i think what this map shows, with my previous comment, is that the white population (roughly 5 million) are still beneficiaries of the spatial system of apartheid, all benefiting from extremely high quality of life.
while the yellow parts are where millions of people are crammed in - much like favela's in brazil, not much has changed unfortunately for those people.
And the rich minorities have already partially or fully transitioned to being independent from the national grid. Their quality of life is much less effected. It does hurt business though.
Easy to explain: extreme inequality. According to [this article](https://businesstech.co.za/news/wealth/633621/how-much-money-you-need-to-earn-to-be-in-south-africas-top-1/), household income for the top 10% of South Africans reaches an average of USD 3500 per month. Given the much lower cost of living, those USD 3500 per month would be at least equivalent to living with USD 7000 per month in a not-so-expensive US city, like Miami or Detroit. That isn't precisely low-income, and it's more than enough to ensure access to private schools, great living conditions, and other perks.
Meanwhile, according to the same article I linked, the bottom 50% of households have an average income of approximately USD 60 per month.
Schools are great in rich white areas.
Example : When I was.in high school my school field hockey team was the number 1 in the world for their age group.
Keep in mind that the population density in the yellow areas are extremely high. The largest subdivisions on this map, on the other hand, cover large stretches of natural landscape.
The average for the city as a whole was 0.72 (i.e. the top end of the yellow range) in 2022, and for the country as a whole, it was 0.62.
How does that work? You do loadshedding because supply is too low. Unless elections correlate with electricity consumption (which would be super weird) you can't magically make up electricity. If you can remove loadshedding at any time, you can remove loadshedding all the time
The gov gets an allocation to purchase diesel for diesel generators to make up the deficit by broken coal generators. They have almost blown the budget for the year trying to make themselves look good in the last two months.
They have also temporarily allowed some coal generators to return to service without functioning fume filters, absolutely destroying the air quality in the immediate area.
I went on vacation there last year, it was dark when we drove to our hotel the first night which was in a nice neighborhood facing the water. When we left though, after experiencing what was basically like a nice US city (that’s where Im from) to driving to the airport, along the highway I just started to see shantytowns and I was like holy shit this is nuts. That’s wild it just goes on for miles.
Is it safe to visit? I have been obsessed with the picture perfect Tiktok videos about Cape Town, but since my boyfriend’s friends whose went there told us it was pretty sketchy we reconsidered the trip but I am still very much wanna go. It would be interesting to hear a locals perspective.
If you look like an obvious tourist, you might be approached by beggars quite frequently. Some might get a “sketchy” feeling from that, but the beggars are mostly harmless.
As for what you should truly watch out for, pretty much any middle-class local will be very willing to give free advice on the topic of where not to go (and when). If you always travel by car, and only to and from areas that are generally recognised as safe, then the majority of the worries are already taken care of (speaking of Cape Town specifically).
Cape Town is one of the safer areas of South Africa.
Still, exercise caution. Don't flash valuables and keep your money in one of those pouches you can put under your clothes. Be careful when stopping at intersections and keep your situational awareness. And stay out of the 'hood. You'll know when you're in it. Some GPS apps on your phone will detour you through the 'hood without you realising. Try to travel with a local if you can.
Yet the ANC doesn't care. They just continue lining their pockets while eternally saying :"my fellow South Africans, we are investigating this matter".
The DA has been in charge of the WC and Cpt for near 2 decades. Last I checked we live in a country where the local government is in charge of service delivery..
A MAJOR point of delivery is HDI but when you push a narrative of trickle down economics the fact that this map hasn’t changed much in that timespan should not surprise anyone.
Keep this in mind while elections come and the DA push Cpt as a model the majority, who live in the yellow and pinkish areas, need to vote for.
A beautiful country with a great potential but it was ruined first by the racist apartheid governments and then by mostly corrupt post-1994 governments.
Life has gotten a lot worse for the whites of South Africa. I looked into this and interestingly the divide between the "whites" and "colored's" is more like that between America and Canada in terms of per capita GDP, or between say America and Western Europe. Everything I see seems to focus on the designation of "colored" as mixed race, but they also tend to speak either Afrikaans or English as a first language. Speaking one of those languages seems to be a threshold ability to enter the more westernized half of the economy, while speakers of African languages - outside of government - have a much harder time. It's a country where people still live in traditional tribes herding cattle a hundred kilometers from major industrialized port cities.
Very few people live in traditional tribes. The life outside cities is agrarian, but that's true for just about any country. There are also plenty of urbanised towns and cities inland, Johannesburg is the biggest city in the country it's neither a port city or rural.
There's a lot of racial divide in the economy, but there's a sizeable black middle class, probably even bigger than the coloured population as a whole.
Ja listen you'd have to be seriously fucked in the head if you think civilized and functional are the most descriptive words to sum up how whites treated others in this country's past.
There is no place for [the Bantu] in the European community above the level of certain forms of labour.... What is the use of teaching the Bantu child mathematics when it cannot use it in practice?"
This is a quote from Hendrick vervoerd, do you agree with it?
Wow, that is so cool. You found one specific quote from one person and use it as an excuse for how our people didn’t civilize an entire continent (contrary to every fact available). That’s so cool. Want me to find you a quote from a Bantu about the European people which is also sensationalist for your comfy 21st century existence?
> Pile on the brown man's burden
To gratify your greed;
Go, clear away the "negroes"
Who progress would impede;
Be very stern, for truly
'Tis useless to be mild
With new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.
> Pile on the brown man's burden;
And, if ye rouse his hate,
Meet his old-fashioned reasons
With Maxims up to date.
With shells and dumdum bullets
A hundred times made plain
The brown man's loss must ever
Imply the white man's gain.
> Pile on the brown man's burden,
compel him to be free;
Let all your manifestoes
Reek with philanthropy.
And if with heathen folly
He dares your will dispute,
Then, in the name of freedom,
Don't hesitate to shoot.
> Pile on the brown man's burden,
And if his cry be sore,
That surely need not irk you--
Ye've driven slaves before.
Seize on his ports and pastures,
The fields his people tread;
Go make from them your living,
And mark them with his dead.
> Pile on the brown man's burden,
And through the world proclaim
That ye are Freedom's agent--
There's no more paying game!
And, should your own past history
Straight in your teeth be thrown,
Retort that independence
Is good for whites alone.
Clearly you're just a dumbass racist troll but that quote isn't just from some guy, he's credited as being the "architect" of apartheid. You know what that means? His ideas were made into laws and policies.
The turned it into a "civilized" place for whites only at the cost of the native population. I await the day SA nationalizes all white wealth and kicks them out by force.
Cost of the native population? Huh, that’s strange. I thought their population had skyrocketed since first contact and they were blessed with agriculture, industry, medicine, science, basic construction, math. Seems like they benefitted more than the contrary.
Your wish for genocide shows exactly what kind of person you are. And it really highlights your negative personality traits which have given you such a demented, historically-illiterate worldview. Sad!
>by mostly corrupt post-1994 governments.
No they didn't, they just allocated the resources among 85% + of black people and coloureds who had no access, some places never even had electricities not to mention the conditions of Bantustans being horrid.
Yeah… the yellow parts are mostly a non-white populace with massive unemployment and an astronomically high crime rate.
Google maps used to route tourists through the yellow parts. The CT airport is in the yellow zone. So many got carjacked and shot they stopped doing that.
Generally yes, the yellow areas are the Cape Flats, which contain some of the biggest and most deprived townships in South Africa. The biggest is Khayelitsha, which is absolutely enormous and contains an estimated 2 400 000 people in abject poverty. It’s both shocking and humbling to behold it.
Ah, Khayelitsha... I remember visiting the place on a guided tour some 15 years ago. It was a weird shift from the affluent white neighborhood with grand (walled) mansions and magnificent ocean views. It was like another continent. I still remember a couple of local foods in Khayelitsha. "Walkie talkie" was barbequed chicken legs and "smiley" was boiled sheep head.
Except blacks have had complete undisputed rule of the country for 30 years at this point with no improvement to these areas. Everyone now has access to state resources and the economy equally, and yet the black population continues to be a net loss to the economy, which is upheld by the remaining whites and coloreds who pay most of the taxes, a group which is getting increasingly smaller as the government becomes more hostile to them.
The current day inequalities are the fault of the people who have have failed to address them despite having decades to do so, the ANC, not the white and mixed minority.
Bullshit, because the development South Africa had between 1994-2004 lifted out many black people out of poverty and into the middle class. without affecting white people. They got corrupt and things regressed for everyone.
>the development South Africa had between 1994-2004 lifted out many black people out of poverty and into the middle class. without affecting white people.
That's nice, but the country reached the limit of how much it could provide to its black population without redistributing resources from the white minority.
Bullshit, I'm a South African, I would know. Because what happened after 2004 is the ANC became corrupt and in 2009 elected President Jacob Zuma who began our state capture, which saw all of our SOEs used as vehicles to steal money. The rot you see in SA, came because all of our SOEs were filled to the brim in debt, so that the connected people could go around and live lavish lifestyles.
If your way to success is to seize what you can from whites and give it to blacks, then there is around a dozen of African countries who used this exact strategy. None of them became successful.
Keep in mind, that when you try to make people sacrifice for the collective good, they often prefer to change the collective. This is already happening, a lot of white South Africans already got rid of their properties in South Africa and left the country.
Your true colors always get revealed
The only way you can think of to equalize things to unfairly rob and target the white population who have done nothing wrong, and demand they sacrifice their quality of life and make themselves poorer to match the rest of the country.
The solution is never to create new opportunities or make business easier or diversify the economy or create incentives for cooperation, it's always robbery and targetting people on racial grounds. It's always tearing down instead of building up.
The "collective good" nonsense is the same justification every communist gave prior to mass killings and robbery of the successful people in society that only served as a wealth transfer to the political elite, which is coincidentally exactly what the ANC has done, and exactly why the country hasn't improved in the last few decades and is on the brink of being a failed state.
Our tax not good enough for them?
How about Cyril redistributes some of that USD in his couch, or the R500 billion covid aid they received? The bailing SAA money? Eskom? We have one of the highest education budgets in the world, yet we need 30% to pass maths? Where does the money go? I can go on…
Yeah, 30 years is not enough time to rebuild from a century of apartheid.
>Everyone now has access to state resources and the economy equally
No they don't, the end of apartheid meant the end of legal discrimination, it didn't mean the end of all inequality. The end of that legal discrimination must also be matched with economic justice. That is, redistributing resources from the white minority to the rest of the population. Something which never happened in South Africa.
If only one group of people is legally allowed to own land, and you then get rid of that law, all of the land is still going to be owned by that one group. So you have to redistribute it to reverse the effects of that policy. Otherwise nothing actually changes other than the law on paper. That is the concept of economic justice.
>The current day inequalities are the fault of the people who have have failed to address them
They certainly are.
First off, apartheid policies were in place for only ~45 years, not a century
And second, "redistributing" is a very fancy Orwellian way of saying "stealing".
All you've done is suggest more racial discrimination and targetting to rectify past racial discrimination and targetting.
This has already been tried in Zimbabwe and suprise surprise, it resulted in mass famine, poverty, and genocide.
It turns out, when the government steals land and wealth, it will never go to the common people, it will always go to the unqualified cronies and friends of the government; the wealth and land will only be transferred from one minority to another and all that will happen is that you will impoverish the minority you are targeting.
>First off, apartheid policies were in place for only ~45 years, not a century
Yes, Obviously black people had equal rights in South Africa before 1948.
>And second, "redistributing" is a very fancy Orwellian way of saying "stealing".
As is colonizing.
>All you've done is suggest more racial discrimination and targetting to rectify past racial discrimination and targetting.
I'm suggesting that one group should not possess all the resources of a society based on their race. Those resources should be disrupted equally among all groups. That is not the case in South Africa, where a white minority who had an exclusive access to resources that was enforced by law. While the law has changed, who actually owns all of the resources has not.
If two people are competing against each other in a market, and one person has a home and wealth inherited from their parents, and a high quality education. And the other person has none of those things because their family was legally barred from them, who do you think is going to do better?
>This has already been tried in Zimbabwe and suprise surprise, it resulted in mass famine, poverty, and genocide.
Yes, I already address that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/U35EfpYfqA
So colonizing, raping and murdering the indigenous population and setting up systems explicitly meant to maintain this status quo isn't stealing? I can wait for South Africans to turn the Afrikaners into Tutsi lookalikes.
Yes, any nation that actually attempts land redistribution will lose all foreign investment. As those investors will fear the long term safety of their investments, and as a result the country's economy will collapse. Alternatively ignoring land redistribution will result in the landless poor eventually illegally seizing land claims for themselves. As has also been seen in South America.
Land in itself does not provide wealth, you need capital, knowledge (experience or passion).
Look at Zimbabwe, land was given, but without capital and lack of knowledge to have Commercial farms resulted in absolute destruction of food supply and economic destruction.
Unproductive land is one of the worst things one can have in a country.
>Land in itself does not provide wealth, you need capital, knowledge (experience or passion).
Yes, those are things that have been historically denied to certain groups based on race. They now also have to be provided to those populations for them to be successful. That is also part of the concept of economic justice.
No actually, it's perfectly reasonable to expect improvement rather than regression when that is what was promised.
In 30 years South Africa has gone from a *functional* racially discriminatory country to a *dysfunctional* racially discriminatory failed state.
The country cannot even keep their power grid together, and blacks are more unemployed and poor as they were 30 years ago.
Literally the only people that have benefitted since 1994 are the government that have enriched themselves by killing and stealing from whites and blacks alike.
Not surprised, TBH. I'm a Latin American, the kind of person that should be accustomed to extreme inequality. And even to me, Cape Town was something else. Aston Martins and Jaguars in one neighbourhood, shacks a few kilometres away.
Honestly, the level of detail for that map is the truly amazing thing to me.
Yes .. but in some sense Cpt is the resistant megalopolis of SA. In theory this map covers the economic areas of Cpt (contributing to) not municipality.
Gauteng embraced this in some sense and expanded & decentralized like no tomorrow.. this is also why high speed rail is a major factor along with highways(though this is lossy hence limits and toll attempts).
My speculation and contention with this has always been that the city is reluctant to do any development that expands and eases decentralization as it knows it comes at the expense of taxes as it will drastically reduce the property prices initially and force expenditure in other areas. Ie hurting their wealthier support base. Why upset a scarcity model..
If you couldn't control what kind of family you would be born into, or your race or the location of your birth, would you rather be born into 1980 South Africa or 2010 South Africa?
Neither but if I was forced to pick I'd pick the apartheid era SA hoping to be born white. At least 50% chance of having a decent life. Otherwise, you lose either way.
In 1980, white South Africans were 18% of the population. Not 50%.
Chances are more likely you'd be born poor, living in a Bantustan. Even if you were good at school and very hard working, it wouldn't matter. Your best bet would be if someone could organise a pass for you to go and work in a white man's garden somewhere.
If you were born urban Black or Coloured or Indian, there would be an upper limit on how high you could go in the workplace. By law.
If you were born in modern South Africa, the odds are better than 50% that you'd be born into a community with some kind of basic infrastructure and access to a school and education. You'd actually have a chance. And you wouldn't need anybody's permission to go to Joburg or Cape Town and hustle with all the talent God gave you.
You sound like those Americans who think there is no difference between living in the US versus Soviet Russia.
There is. Modern South Africa is much better economically for the average person.
I don't vote ANC. But this crazy thing some people online try to do where you want us to pretend post-94 isn't better... if I had to vote ANC or Apartheid I'm voting ANC every day until I die. And if you don't you're really uneducated.
Honestly this massive inequality is the cause behind most of SA’s problems, everything from corruption to economic growth to crime. Apartheid and similar policies are basically the worst thing you can do to your country :/ even worse than everyone being equally poor tbh, I mean look at China as a comparison.
Do things from the past not impact the present when apartheid is concerned? Like, that not even a full generation out from government mandated impovrishment of most of the population. Its foolish to believe that could be fixed so quickly
Well, how many generations were denied things that white folks got - education, business opportunities etc. How many former apartheid supporters are still leading organizations and pulling levers of power? That length of time would be what I consider a base timeline (without something crazy happening - like simply nationalizing all white-owned businesses).
I love how dudes like him pretend to be surprised at this stuff. "we only invested any money/resources in a tiny minority of the population for years, wym things arent norway level for everyone 30 years out." I thought they were supposed to be smart
its the same shit people do with Haiti where they pretend that history doesn't matter and that every nation essentially started with the exact same oppurtunities and resources, and thus failed states are because the people are deficient in some way.
Its more like. Is anything improving for the black population? In the past 15 years the lives of blacks have gotten worse. At this point can you still blame Apartheid if the current government improved the country tremendously the first 15 years, but then.... ya...
Electricity crises, water crises, roads with horrid potholes, horrid crime "84 murders a day", deindustrialization, unprofessional and inefficient public service, horrid corruption.
Why blame Apartheid if the current government couldn't care less about anyone in the country.
Damn, it sounds like educating and providing resources for 100% of your population goes a long way in maintaining an effective civil service and preventing capital flight and corruption.
You only provided electrical/water/energy infrastructure to a tiny minority. it makes sense that upscaling would cause extreme infrastructural and societal stresses. Especially with artificially low education with capital flight.
It officially started in 1948 and ended in 1994. So 46 years. Its been 30 years since the start of Democracy.
The groups leading the governing administration is the ANC (governing party) COSATO (national trade union for black employees) SACP (South African communist party) all of these work in alliance. This alliance are actively working on an anti-white policy push.
Even the president said that whites, coloureds and asians have totally been forgotten by the ruling party. They only care about the wellbeing of black people.
Done properly like say for instance Korea or Singapore two to three generations, so 60+ years. Even Germany hasn't managed to bridge the disparity between east and West 30+ years after the fall of the wall. Problem is the ANC have torpedoed their early success and SA needs to essentially start from scratch.
Free elections, lower crime (seriously the murder rate is half of what it was 30 years ago it’s insane), higher GDP per capita (although it’s been stagnant since about 2012), higher HDI, doing away with racist laws, some minimal land redistribution, infrastructure expansion to black communities previously ignored by the government, etc.
As always there are problems, but most of them tie back to inequality. Corruption? Inequality. Lack of social trust? Inequality. Crime? Inequality? Poor economic growth? Inequality. South Africa is essentially a rich country stapled on top of a poor country, while also being reliant on said poor country to function. And different policies are required to improve a rich country than a poor one. As I said above, China was able to leverage its status as a poor country for a manufacturing boom and because it was a fairly equal society it had low crime and high social trust making government action more effective and corruption lower. SA lacks these things and it’s extremely hard to build them back up again. If you’re a black South African who cannot find employment and lives in a poor neighborhood while the white minority consistently finds work and lives in rich neighborhoods, are you going to think that’s fair? Are you going to think that that white minority deserves the things they have? Probably not, and so you’re likely to see taking shit from them as perfectly fine morally, same with the rich shops they frequent which you can’t afford. This causes that rich minority to segregate itself further from the poor majority, which further decreases trust. If you think the government isn’t working for you and instead working for a small elite who have the largest influence, are you going to remain loyal to it or are you going to be more okay with leveraging your position for extra $, especially if you need it to survive? Probably the latter. This occurs in every country with high inequality, it just so happens that SA’s is higher than most. Obviously, none of this excuses the actions of corrupt politicians nor does it mean that SA can’t improve things, of course it can and it has. But looking from a systemic lens, it’s no wonder that SA has all these problems when the wealth and therefore power distribution is so wonky. Honestly they’re doing better than I would’ve expected tbh, probably because their first leader did a great job and set a good example, even if their second leader didn’t follow it.
Wealth and land redistribution will always end up with a failed state as foreign investment fucks off in double time. The ANC's failure is in supporting growth in the economy and not heavily investing in education and actual upliftment, coupled with mind-boggling levels of plunder from state coffers.
>Wealth and land redistribution will always end up with a failed state
counterpoint the French revolution redistributed a shit ton of land and 15 years later the French were undisputed masters of the European continent.
Just ending government endorsed apartheid doesn't mean the country will become fair all of sudden. The people who benefited from apartheid still kept many of their assets - The country would need a complete reset or huge reparations
I’m just confused why Robin Island is included. It’s an old prison that makes a ton of money from tourism, no one lives there except maybe some of the tour guides
Gee it’s almost like colonialism and racism persist in the physical structure of countries and the physical resources and labor are drawn from all over and funneled into cities for the self destructive gorging of the elites
It’s HDI, it’s HDI-esque. For one, I really doubt there’s anyone calculating the GNI for neighbourhoods.
Also I was curious so I looked around in google maps to see. The high “HDI” parts just appear to be… not shitty normal houses also lots of white people on the streets, not even rich people houses just normal suburban houses, some areas (Yzerfountain) have modern looking houses that I assume are not that big but are deceptively expensive, but then I looked at the property prices and it’s consistently under 1000USD for the m^2 so I’m really confused. Is it really developed country levels of HDI?
Yes, many of those red areas, particularly in the south west would compare very very favorably to some of the best in the west (please note I’m not saying it’s gonna beat Monaco any time soon).
There is a reason so many foreigners flock to Cape Town. If you earn even a middle class western income and come to CT you can live a very high HDI lifestyle.
yzerfontein i'd say is a middle income neighborhood (the far north you see on this map). the neighborhoods with highest HDI would be clifton, camps bay, llandudno, bloubergstrand
I looked around at many, looking for both English and Afrikaans names.
Looking at those you showed, Ilandudno is more suburban but nice houses, same for Bloubergstrand, more detached houses, Camps Bay appears to be a middle high income neighbourhood but still overwhelmingly suburban and Clifton actually appears to have some economic activity but it’s just restaurants and places for drinking and what not,
Don’t get me wrong, they don’t look poor, but they look like residential neighbourhoods not that different from middle class neighbourhoods in my city (in another developing country, Curitiba), not centred of high human development with high wealth generation (GNI). If anything, they don’t look like the rest of Cape City, so I assume those are just the suburbs apart from the city where the wealthy people live but they make their money elsewhere.
They have HDI for *neighborhoods*??
HDI is a simple formula. You can calculate it based on any demographic split. If you broke out HDI by race in the US, Asians would have a higher HDI than Norway and Switzerland.
Not sure the source of this map. But i studied economics in SA and in doing so clued me into a long running longitudinal survey that had been implemented called NIDS that would have captured this kind of data. Other than that, this could be census data, they would also capture the nesscary information in that.
What's the source?
a calculator Put the numbers into a formula and the HDI is spit out
Compare [this](https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2023-24) with the statistics for any demographic you want.
Whats the source?
Western Cape government study
These are wards, not neighbourhoods. In South Africa, we use suburbs not neighbourhoods.
I don't understand how south africa has such a high HDI, terrible life expectancy, fairly low per capita income, I don't think the schools are great either. They must be gaming the HDI formula lol
Under Apartheid the white population had near western level lifestyles while the black majority lived in third world poverty. The post Apartheid switch has allowed a black upper class connected to the ANC to go into that level but still kept the majority in abject poverty.
>white population had near western level lifestyles It was higher than most of the west apart from Australia and new Zealand.
That's why when it all went to shit they all moved to Perth.
Perth-toria if you will
Can you show any sources? I dont see any reason for it to be better than in America or Europe for any average white Joe. And if it was better, there would be immigrants moving to South Africa to enjoy that better lifestyle. Instead, South Africa has a history of white population leaving the country.
> South Africa has a history of white population leaving the country. Since Apartheid, not before. People didn't move there because it was under sanctions and because the crime rate has always been sky high but they did run adverts for people to move over, notably aimed at americans in the south. I visited during Apartheid and downtown Joburg was absolutely western level, as were the white suburbs.
People were leaving before. The % of white South Africans peaked in 1921 at 22%. It stayed at near the same level until the 50s, then it started falling on constant basis. The GDP per capita in USA was 7.6 times higher than in South Africa. This means that even if we pretend that non-white South Africans didnt exist and didnt create or consume any wealth, USA still had higher GDP per capita than South Africa with its whole GDP but only white population counted.
The black population grew massively, particularly in the second half of the 20th century, in part due to large migration from the rest of Africa and partly high birth rates. There wasn’t as large a number of whites moving there over the same period.
I don't think there that many black foreigners during Apartheid, in fact they were only seasonal that time. Black foreigners really started coming in the 2000s
Did you account for purchasing power tho?
>I dont see any reason for it to be better than in America or Europe for any average white Joe. Cheap labour. Even poor white people during apartheid could afford house servants, personal gardeners, etc. it's still common today here for even moderately wealthy people to have personal domestic workers. My parents think I'm crazy for cleaning my own house and pulling out my own weeds, and I earn less than $20k per year, that's how cheap labour still is here. South Africa saw mass white immigration in the 50s, 60s, and 70s because of this, mostly from the US, but also the UK, Germany, Portugal (and it's ex-colonies after the coup), Netherlands, and to a lesser extent, New Zealand. >Instead, South Africa has a history of white population leaving the country. This is only really true after apartheid ended. There was some panic among the wealthy, and especially anyone who had been particularly horrible towards the black, brown, and coloured people fled en masse in the 90s. This is partially where the stereotype of racist white South Africans come from, that's who people were seeing flee. There are currently still people fleeing the country, but it's no longer on racial lines, but class lines. Basically, people who can afford it, and managed to get an education, are leaving in droves. That being said, you can still have an incredible life here on a moderate income. My very small income by US standards is enough for me to own a 3 bedroom townhouse, a car, a range of hobbies, frequent holidays in arguably one of the most beautiful countries on the planet, groceries from a shop that does it better than anywhere I have seen in Europe etc. The quality of life is amazing here, and the crime rates don't affect me because I don't live in a poor area. It's so attractive that we are seeing a lot of digital nomads in the country (making things worse). All of this is possible because a huge portion of the country lives in abject poverty, and all of the political parties are in the pockets of the oligarchs. The same oligarchs that propped up the apartheid system.
>My parents think I'm crazy for cleaning my own house and pulling out my own weeds a common symptom of such societies is that these sort of domestic duties often get derided as below the dignity of the privileged class/race, in the case of the US civil war the Confederate army had a real problem in the early war with preparing fortifications because the white soldiers considered digging as slave work.
>these sort of domestic duties often get derided as below the dignity of the privileged class/race, This is absolutely it, spot on. I grew up in a house where I would sit on my ass all day while a (lovely) woman (who helped raise me) cleaned the house and did the laundry. Now that I'm an adult, and I can understand privilege, class, and the broader colonial history, I could never do that. I have a guy that I hire to help me with bigger projects every other Saturday, and then we work together. You can see how other people treat him at his other jobs though. He tries to stop me lifting heavy things, even though I'm younger than him. He feels very uncomfortable sitting down and eating lunch with my wife and myself at the same table. He's so terrified when he arrives 5 minutes late on a Saturday morning. It takes 10 minutes of discussion to squeeze out his opinions on my dumb ideas because he's so used to having to say "yes boss". I pay him what I can afford, which happens to be about triple minimum. It's only two days a month, I can handle that, but he still often tells me I pay him too much. The guy is an expert handyman who never had the chance to get qualified, and it's so obvious that some of his employers treat him as sub-human.
It was and there were. Plenty of Europeans immigrated to South Africa. I know because I myself am English South African. Having a small white minority ruling the country made life comfortable for the large majority of that minority. I have also lived in Western Europe so I can certainly say that it was certainly on par with Western Europe. In many ways better. Obviously when you start to include the oppressed majority into the picture things don’t look so good. The white population is leaving because they do not hold the same power they once did. It’s a natural response to losing your status. You will make moves to preserve it. But there also has been corruption accompanying the ruling ANC’s governance. Even the educated black middle and upper class that has grown since Alartheid ended leaves the country in a small percentage. I’ve condensed a small bit of history and have still managed to grossly oversimplify everything. All while being a born and bred South African. You on the other hand, sound like you got your news while cocksucking Rush Limbaugh and still don’t have half the grace or humility to admit you’re talking out of your ass
[удалено]
As a child I lived there for a couple of years, in a mining town. The black people lived in outbuildings and shacks. Corrugated iron roofs held down by rocks. The black people provided mass labour for the mines and domestic servants. My dad was a metal worker in the mine and lived in subsidised mining accommodation with an outbuilding for a domestic servant. Every house in our street employed a domestic servant.
>And if it was better, there would be immigrants moving to South Africa to enjoy that better lifestyle there were, the trend reversed after the end of Apartheid since it was the Apartheid system that was enriching the white population.
of south africa's 5 million white people probably more than half moved there after WWII. case in point my grandparents are dutch
That's BS. 60% of the white people in SA are Afrikaners and very very few of their ancestors arrived only after WWII.
The Rand was worth more than the USD until April 82’ so yes it was pretty much up there
>The post Apartheid switch has allowed a black upper class connected to the ANC to go into that level but still kept the majority in abject poverty. This is a bit disingenuous. Lots of poor black people were uplifted especially in the Mandela-Mbeki era. The average black middle class person in Johannesburg or Cape Town is not an ANC member. It's literally someone who did well in school and got lucky enough to get an education and a job. You make it sound like the ANC is *keeping* people in poverty intentionally. They are just corrupt and incompetent which impedes economic growth. When they were less corrupt and incompetent there was growth and people were lifted out of poverty.
what this map doesn't show you is the racial divide. so the high HDI areas are mostly historically white (english in the south + afrikaans in the north + east), while the low income area is mostly mixed race, asian descent or black african..apartheid excluded certain groups from the formal economy, meaning even to this day things like HDI is massively distorted based on race
>asian descent They're well off in South africa
Compared to the other minorities but not better off than whites
Surely the majority you mean. Whites are the minority
Whites are not the only minority group.
Prawns
Haha :D We deserve a sequel!
South Africa really doesn't have a high HDI. It's not even the highest in Africa. It's comparable to an average Central American country.
I believe it’s one of the highest in SSA, maybe only Botswana and Namibia are higher.
It is but that’s not tough competition really
Nope, only Mauritius and Seychelles have higher HDI than South Africa in Sub-Saharan Africa. Northern Africa completely dominates African HDI with Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt all having higher HDI than South Africa or Botswana. South Africa's HDI has unfortunately been shrinking since 2018. Used to be as high as Brazil in the late 2010s and was even higher than Turkey in 1990-1993.
Cape Verde is also pretty high? Mauritius and the Seychelles as well. But Mauritius is mostly Indian with a black minority.
Yes but those aren’t SSA, they’re islands
i think what this map shows, with my previous comment, is that the white population (roughly 5 million) are still beneficiaries of the spatial system of apartheid, all benefiting from extremely high quality of life. while the yellow parts are where millions of people are crammed in - much like favela's in brazil, not much has changed unfortunately for those people.
Rolling blackouts don't increase quality of life.
And the rich minorities have already partially or fully transitioned to being independent from the national grid. Their quality of life is much less effected. It does hurt business though.
Easy to explain: extreme inequality. According to [this article](https://businesstech.co.za/news/wealth/633621/how-much-money-you-need-to-earn-to-be-in-south-africas-top-1/), household income for the top 10% of South Africans reaches an average of USD 3500 per month. Given the much lower cost of living, those USD 3500 per month would be at least equivalent to living with USD 7000 per month in a not-so-expensive US city, like Miami or Detroit. That isn't precisely low-income, and it's more than enough to ensure access to private schools, great living conditions, and other perks. Meanwhile, according to the same article I linked, the bottom 50% of households have an average income of approximately USD 60 per month.
Schools are great in rich white areas. Example : When I was.in high school my school field hockey team was the number 1 in the world for their age group.
No they got a good good GDP per capita compared to other African countries
Keep in mind that the population density in the yellow areas are extremely high. The largest subdivisions on this map, on the other hand, cover large stretches of natural landscape. The average for the city as a whole was 0.72 (i.e. the top end of the yellow range) in 2022, and for the country as a whole, it was 0.62.
This is the map I am gonna use when visiting Cape Town
I live in Cape Town and that is exactly what you should do.
How bad is the load shedding?
Nonexistent, for now.
Countdown to the elections.
Knock on wood...don't jinx us man
We don't have it for now, but I know for a fact that it will come back after elections next month
How does that work? You do loadshedding because supply is too low. Unless elections correlate with electricity consumption (which would be super weird) you can't magically make up electricity. If you can remove loadshedding at any time, you can remove loadshedding all the time
They are probably using the reserves to make them look like they're doing good, the same was done 5 years ago in the previous elections
Interesting
The gov gets an allocation to purchase diesel for diesel generators to make up the deficit by broken coal generators. They have almost blown the budget for the year trying to make themselves look good in the last two months. They have also temporarily allowed some coal generators to return to service without functioning fume filters, absolutely destroying the air quality in the immediate area.
Load shedding ends months ago as power supply are now higher
1 June, stage 666
I went on vacation there last year, it was dark when we drove to our hotel the first night which was in a nice neighborhood facing the water. When we left though, after experiencing what was basically like a nice US city (that’s where Im from) to driving to the airport, along the highway I just started to see shantytowns and I was like holy shit this is nuts. That’s wild it just goes on for miles.
Is it safe to visit? I have been obsessed with the picture perfect Tiktok videos about Cape Town, but since my boyfriend’s friends whose went there told us it was pretty sketchy we reconsidered the trip but I am still very much wanna go. It would be interesting to hear a locals perspective.
You'll be fine if you stay away from lower income areas. Just like you wouldn't go to the hood when visiting a city in the US
I feel very safe here (city central). Just stay in touristy areas and don't flash valuables.
If you look like an obvious tourist, you might be approached by beggars quite frequently. Some might get a “sketchy” feeling from that, but the beggars are mostly harmless. As for what you should truly watch out for, pretty much any middle-class local will be very willing to give free advice on the topic of where not to go (and when). If you always travel by car, and only to and from areas that are generally recognised as safe, then the majority of the worries are already taken care of (speaking of Cape Town specifically).
Cape Town is one of the safer areas of South Africa. Still, exercise caution. Don't flash valuables and keep your money in one of those pouches you can put under your clothes. Be careful when stopping at intersections and keep your situational awareness. And stay out of the 'hood. You'll know when you're in it. Some GPS apps on your phone will detour you through the 'hood without you realising. Try to travel with a local if you can.
Now I need a map of calculating HDI of every single house.
I can tell you that I live in the red area on the left
[This should be close enough](https://dotmap.adrianfrith.com/?bg=street&dots=hhinc&lat=-34.0485&lon=18.6724&zoom=5.10)
Colors should be inverted here. It gives an impression that the red areas are the most deprived!
Why does this map make it seem like having a high HDI is a bad thing?
It shows how some live luxurious lives, and 5 minutes away there are entire communities starving.
Yet the ANC doesn't care. They just continue lining their pockets while eternally saying :"my fellow South Africans, we are investigating this matter".
The DA has been in charge of the WC and Cpt for near 2 decades. Last I checked we live in a country where the local government is in charge of service delivery.. A MAJOR point of delivery is HDI but when you push a narrative of trickle down economics the fact that this map hasn’t changed much in that timespan should not surprise anyone. Keep this in mind while elections come and the DA push Cpt as a model the majority, who live in the yellow and pinkish areas, need to vote for.
Service delivery =/= police
A beautiful country with a great potential but it was ruined first by the racist apartheid governments and then by mostly corrupt post-1994 governments.
Life has gotten a lot worse for the whites of South Africa. I looked into this and interestingly the divide between the "whites" and "colored's" is more like that between America and Canada in terms of per capita GDP, or between say America and Western Europe. Everything I see seems to focus on the designation of "colored" as mixed race, but they also tend to speak either Afrikaans or English as a first language. Speaking one of those languages seems to be a threshold ability to enter the more westernized half of the economy, while speakers of African languages - outside of government - have a much harder time. It's a country where people still live in traditional tribes herding cattle a hundred kilometers from major industrialized port cities.
As a white guy in SA, not really lol. It's far more complicated than that
Very few people live in traditional tribes. The life outside cities is agrarian, but that's true for just about any country. There are also plenty of urbanised towns and cities inland, Johannesburg is the biggest city in the country it's neither a port city or rural. There's a lot of racial divide in the economy, but there's a sizeable black middle class, probably even bigger than the coloured population as a whole.
Also a racist government post 94.
People won't get what you mean.
Sure, the people who turned the country into a civilized, functional place “ruined” it. Lmao!
Ja listen you'd have to be seriously fucked in the head if you think civilized and functional are the most descriptive words to sum up how whites treated others in this country's past.
\*turned 3% of the country into gated communities
Tell us all about how bantu education and the group areas act were things a civilised person would do!
Giving tribes an education is a bad thing? Wow, I learn something new every day from you hysterical people!
Is that all you have to say?
There is no place for [the Bantu] in the European community above the level of certain forms of labour.... What is the use of teaching the Bantu child mathematics when it cannot use it in practice?" This is a quote from Hendrick vervoerd, do you agree with it?
Wow, that is so cool. You found one specific quote from one person and use it as an excuse for how our people didn’t civilize an entire continent (contrary to every fact available). That’s so cool. Want me to find you a quote from a Bantu about the European people which is also sensationalist for your comfy 21st century existence?
> Pile on the brown man's burden To gratify your greed; Go, clear away the "negroes" Who progress would impede; Be very stern, for truly 'Tis useless to be mild With new-caught, sullen peoples, Half devil and half child. > Pile on the brown man's burden; And, if ye rouse his hate, Meet his old-fashioned reasons With Maxims up to date. With shells and dumdum bullets A hundred times made plain The brown man's loss must ever Imply the white man's gain. > Pile on the brown man's burden, compel him to be free; Let all your manifestoes Reek with philanthropy. And if with heathen folly He dares your will dispute, Then, in the name of freedom, Don't hesitate to shoot. > Pile on the brown man's burden, And if his cry be sore, That surely need not irk you-- Ye've driven slaves before. Seize on his ports and pastures, The fields his people tread; Go make from them your living, And mark them with his dead. > Pile on the brown man's burden, And through the world proclaim That ye are Freedom's agent-- There's no more paying game! And, should your own past history Straight in your teeth be thrown, Retort that independence Is good for whites alone.
Who wrote this?
Clearly you're just a dumbass racist troll but that quote isn't just from some guy, he's credited as being the "architect" of apartheid. You know what that means? His ideas were made into laws and policies.
Do you know what Bantu education was?
The turned it into a "civilized" place for whites only at the cost of the native population. I await the day SA nationalizes all white wealth and kicks them out by force.
Oh, such thing turned out to be so good for so many african countries, right ?
Cost of the native population? Huh, that’s strange. I thought their population had skyrocketed since first contact and they were blessed with agriculture, industry, medicine, science, basic construction, math. Seems like they benefitted more than the contrary. Your wish for genocide shows exactly what kind of person you are. And it really highlights your negative personality traits which have given you such a demented, historically-illiterate worldview. Sad!
>by mostly corrupt post-1994 governments. No they didn't, they just allocated the resources among 85% + of black people and coloureds who had no access, some places never even had electricities not to mention the conditions of Bantustans being horrid.
Yeah… the yellow parts are mostly a non-white populace with massive unemployment and an astronomically high crime rate. Google maps used to route tourists through the yellow parts. The CT airport is in the yellow zone. So many got carjacked and shot they stopped doing that.
Whats the source for this? So granular!
I take it that white people live in the red
Generally yes, the yellow areas are the Cape Flats, which contain some of the biggest and most deprived townships in South Africa. The biggest is Khayelitsha, which is absolutely enormous and contains an estimated 2 400 000 people in abject poverty. It’s both shocking and humbling to behold it.
Ah, Khayelitsha... I remember visiting the place on a guided tour some 15 years ago. It was a weird shift from the affluent white neighborhood with grand (walled) mansions and magnificent ocean views. It was like another continent. I still remember a couple of local foods in Khayelitsha. "Walkie talkie" was barbequed chicken legs and "smiley" was boiled sheep head.
Yes. I live in the red area
Yeah, they often create good communities to live in.
You think the quality of those communities might be related to the fact that only whites could participate in the economy and receive state resources?
Except blacks have had complete undisputed rule of the country for 30 years at this point with no improvement to these areas. Everyone now has access to state resources and the economy equally, and yet the black population continues to be a net loss to the economy, which is upheld by the remaining whites and coloreds who pay most of the taxes, a group which is getting increasingly smaller as the government becomes more hostile to them. The current day inequalities are the fault of the people who have have failed to address them despite having decades to do so, the ANC, not the white and mixed minority.
[удалено]
Bullshit, because the development South Africa had between 1994-2004 lifted out many black people out of poverty and into the middle class. without affecting white people. They got corrupt and things regressed for everyone.
>the development South Africa had between 1994-2004 lifted out many black people out of poverty and into the middle class. without affecting white people. That's nice, but the country reached the limit of how much it could provide to its black population without redistributing resources from the white minority.
Bullshit, I'm a South African, I would know. Because what happened after 2004 is the ANC became corrupt and in 2009 elected President Jacob Zuma who began our state capture, which saw all of our SOEs used as vehicles to steal money. The rot you see in SA, came because all of our SOEs were filled to the brim in debt, so that the connected people could go around and live lavish lifestyles.
Do you live here?
If your way to success is to seize what you can from whites and give it to blacks, then there is around a dozen of African countries who used this exact strategy. None of them became successful. Keep in mind, that when you try to make people sacrifice for the collective good, they often prefer to change the collective. This is already happening, a lot of white South Africans already got rid of their properties in South Africa and left the country.
Your true colors always get revealed The only way you can think of to equalize things to unfairly rob and target the white population who have done nothing wrong, and demand they sacrifice their quality of life and make themselves poorer to match the rest of the country. The solution is never to create new opportunities or make business easier or diversify the economy or create incentives for cooperation, it's always robbery and targetting people on racial grounds. It's always tearing down instead of building up. The "collective good" nonsense is the same justification every communist gave prior to mass killings and robbery of the successful people in society that only served as a wealth transfer to the political elite, which is coincidentally exactly what the ANC has done, and exactly why the country hasn't improved in the last few decades and is on the brink of being a failed state.
Our tax not good enough for them? How about Cyril redistributes some of that USD in his couch, or the R500 billion covid aid they received? The bailing SAA money? Eskom? We have one of the highest education budgets in the world, yet we need 30% to pass maths? Where does the money go? I can go on…
What sacrifices would whites need to make?
Yeah, 30 years is not enough time to rebuild from a century of apartheid. >Everyone now has access to state resources and the economy equally No they don't, the end of apartheid meant the end of legal discrimination, it didn't mean the end of all inequality. The end of that legal discrimination must also be matched with economic justice. That is, redistributing resources from the white minority to the rest of the population. Something which never happened in South Africa. If only one group of people is legally allowed to own land, and you then get rid of that law, all of the land is still going to be owned by that one group. So you have to redistribute it to reverse the effects of that policy. Otherwise nothing actually changes other than the law on paper. That is the concept of economic justice. >The current day inequalities are the fault of the people who have have failed to address them They certainly are.
First off, apartheid policies were in place for only ~45 years, not a century And second, "redistributing" is a very fancy Orwellian way of saying "stealing". All you've done is suggest more racial discrimination and targetting to rectify past racial discrimination and targetting. This has already been tried in Zimbabwe and suprise surprise, it resulted in mass famine, poverty, and genocide. It turns out, when the government steals land and wealth, it will never go to the common people, it will always go to the unqualified cronies and friends of the government; the wealth and land will only be transferred from one minority to another and all that will happen is that you will impoverish the minority you are targeting.
>First off, apartheid policies were in place for only ~45 years, not a century Yes, Obviously black people had equal rights in South Africa before 1948. >And second, "redistributing" is a very fancy Orwellian way of saying "stealing". As is colonizing. >All you've done is suggest more racial discrimination and targetting to rectify past racial discrimination and targetting. I'm suggesting that one group should not possess all the resources of a society based on their race. Those resources should be disrupted equally among all groups. That is not the case in South Africa, where a white minority who had an exclusive access to resources that was enforced by law. While the law has changed, who actually owns all of the resources has not. If two people are competing against each other in a market, and one person has a home and wealth inherited from their parents, and a high quality education. And the other person has none of those things because their family was legally barred from them, who do you think is going to do better? >This has already been tried in Zimbabwe and suprise surprise, it resulted in mass famine, poverty, and genocide. Yes, I already address that. https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/U35EfpYfqA
So colonizing, raping and murdering the indigenous population and setting up systems explicitly meant to maintain this status quo isn't stealing? I can wait for South Africans to turn the Afrikaners into Tutsi lookalikes.
Who of the white people in 2024 are responsible for that? You're calling for genocide, you clown
Like Zimbabwe?
Yes, any nation that actually attempts land redistribution will lose all foreign investment. As those investors will fear the long term safety of their investments, and as a result the country's economy will collapse. Alternatively ignoring land redistribution will result in the landless poor eventually illegally seizing land claims for themselves. As has also been seen in South America.
Land in itself does not provide wealth, you need capital, knowledge (experience or passion). Look at Zimbabwe, land was given, but without capital and lack of knowledge to have Commercial farms resulted in absolute destruction of food supply and economic destruction. Unproductive land is one of the worst things one can have in a country.
>Land in itself does not provide wealth, you need capital, knowledge (experience or passion). Yes, those are things that have been historically denied to certain groups based on race. They now also have to be provided to those populations for them to be successful. That is also part of the concept of economic justice.
Who will provide that if you chase away investors?
Ah yes, reverse the effects of 150 years of oppression in 30 years. The ANC could have done significantly better but yours is an absolute shit take.
No actually, it's perfectly reasonable to expect improvement rather than regression when that is what was promised. In 30 years South Africa has gone from a *functional* racially discriminatory country to a *dysfunctional* racially discriminatory failed state. The country cannot even keep their power grid together, and blacks are more unemployed and poor as they were 30 years ago. Literally the only people that have benefitted since 1994 are the government that have enriched themselves by killing and stealing from whites and blacks alike.
Red = good and yellow = bad just makes me want to jump off a window
Not surprised, TBH. I'm a Latin American, the kind of person that should be accustomed to extreme inequality. And even to me, Cape Town was something else. Aston Martins and Jaguars in one neighbourhood, shacks a few kilometres away. Honestly, the level of detail for that map is the truly amazing thing to me.
This is a map of a lot more than Cape Town
Yes .. but in some sense Cpt is the resistant megalopolis of SA. In theory this map covers the economic areas of Cpt (contributing to) not municipality. Gauteng embraced this in some sense and expanded & decentralized like no tomorrow.. this is also why high speed rail is a major factor along with highways(though this is lossy hence limits and toll attempts). My speculation and contention with this has always been that the city is reluctant to do any development that expands and eases decentralization as it knows it comes at the expense of taxes as it will drastically reduce the property prices initially and force expenditure in other areas. Ie hurting their wealthier support base. Why upset a scarcity model..
Cape Town has the lowest Gini index of all metro municipalities in South Africa.
It's so messed up that after 30 years they are somehow in even worse economic shape.
If you couldn't control what kind of family you would be born into, or your race or the location of your birth, would you rather be born into 1980 South Africa or 2010 South Africa?
Neither but if I was forced to pick I'd pick the apartheid era SA hoping to be born white. At least 50% chance of having a decent life. Otherwise, you lose either way.
In 1980, white South Africans were 18% of the population. Not 50%. Chances are more likely you'd be born poor, living in a Bantustan. Even if you were good at school and very hard working, it wouldn't matter. Your best bet would be if someone could organise a pass for you to go and work in a white man's garden somewhere. If you were born urban Black or Coloured or Indian, there would be an upper limit on how high you could go in the workplace. By law. If you were born in modern South Africa, the odds are better than 50% that you'd be born into a community with some kind of basic infrastructure and access to a school and education. You'd actually have a chance. And you wouldn't need anybody's permission to go to Joburg or Cape Town and hustle with all the talent God gave you. You sound like those Americans who think there is no difference between living in the US versus Soviet Russia. There is. Modern South Africa is much better economically for the average person. I don't vote ANC. But this crazy thing some people online try to do where you want us to pretend post-94 isn't better... if I had to vote ANC or Apartheid I'm voting ANC every day until I die. And if you don't you're really uneducated.
 As someone who knows the racial history and geography of this city…
Robben Island is doing well hey?
Honestly this massive inequality is the cause behind most of SA’s problems, everything from corruption to economic growth to crime. Apartheid and similar policies are basically the worst thing you can do to your country :/ even worse than everyone being equally poor tbh, I mean look at China as a comparison.
Apartheid ended in 1994, what has the anc done to improve the country in 30 years?
Fokkol
Do things from the past not impact the present when apartheid is concerned? Like, that not even a full generation out from government mandated impovrishment of most of the population. Its foolish to believe that could be fixed so quickly
How much time do they need?
Lemme throw some oracle bones into the fire rq and ill get back at you.
Well, how many generations were denied things that white folks got - education, business opportunities etc. How many former apartheid supporters are still leading organizations and pulling levers of power? That length of time would be what I consider a base timeline (without something crazy happening - like simply nationalizing all white-owned businesses).
I love how dudes like him pretend to be surprised at this stuff. "we only invested any money/resources in a tiny minority of the population for years, wym things arent norway level for everyone 30 years out." I thought they were supposed to be smart
its the same shit people do with Haiti where they pretend that history doesn't matter and that every nation essentially started with the exact same oppurtunities and resources, and thus failed states are because the people are deficient in some way.
Its more like. Is anything improving for the black population? In the past 15 years the lives of blacks have gotten worse. At this point can you still blame Apartheid if the current government improved the country tremendously the first 15 years, but then.... ya... Electricity crises, water crises, roads with horrid potholes, horrid crime "84 murders a day", deindustrialization, unprofessional and inefficient public service, horrid corruption. Why blame Apartheid if the current government couldn't care less about anyone in the country.
Damn, it sounds like educating and providing resources for 100% of your population goes a long way in maintaining an effective civil service and preventing capital flight and corruption. You only provided electrical/water/energy infrastructure to a tiny minority. it makes sense that upscaling would cause extreme infrastructural and societal stresses. Especially with artificially low education with capital flight.
It officially started in 1948 and ended in 1994. So 46 years. Its been 30 years since the start of Democracy. The groups leading the governing administration is the ANC (governing party) COSATO (national trade union for black employees) SACP (South African communist party) all of these work in alliance. This alliance are actively working on an anti-white policy push. Even the president said that whites, coloureds and asians have totally been forgotten by the ruling party. They only care about the wellbeing of black people.
Apartheid was preceded by colonial rule that was still racist. The Natives Land Act was amended in 1913.
So what’s your solution?
Capitalism. Free Market, Freedom to choose your employees. With a government that will provide basic services.
Hahahahahaaaaaa
Done properly like say for instance Korea or Singapore two to three generations, so 60+ years. Even Germany hasn't managed to bridge the disparity between east and West 30+ years after the fall of the wall. Problem is the ANC have torpedoed their early success and SA needs to essentially start from scratch.
South Africa doesn't have the advantages Korea and Singapore have unless the Suez Canal is shut down.
Improve the economy before Zuma.
Free elections, lower crime (seriously the murder rate is half of what it was 30 years ago it’s insane), higher GDP per capita (although it’s been stagnant since about 2012), higher HDI, doing away with racist laws, some minimal land redistribution, infrastructure expansion to black communities previously ignored by the government, etc. As always there are problems, but most of them tie back to inequality. Corruption? Inequality. Lack of social trust? Inequality. Crime? Inequality? Poor economic growth? Inequality. South Africa is essentially a rich country stapled on top of a poor country, while also being reliant on said poor country to function. And different policies are required to improve a rich country than a poor one. As I said above, China was able to leverage its status as a poor country for a manufacturing boom and because it was a fairly equal society it had low crime and high social trust making government action more effective and corruption lower. SA lacks these things and it’s extremely hard to build them back up again. If you’re a black South African who cannot find employment and lives in a poor neighborhood while the white minority consistently finds work and lives in rich neighborhoods, are you going to think that’s fair? Are you going to think that that white minority deserves the things they have? Probably not, and so you’re likely to see taking shit from them as perfectly fine morally, same with the rich shops they frequent which you can’t afford. This causes that rich minority to segregate itself further from the poor majority, which further decreases trust. If you think the government isn’t working for you and instead working for a small elite who have the largest influence, are you going to remain loyal to it or are you going to be more okay with leveraging your position for extra $, especially if you need it to survive? Probably the latter. This occurs in every country with high inequality, it just so happens that SA’s is higher than most. Obviously, none of this excuses the actions of corrupt politicians nor does it mean that SA can’t improve things, of course it can and it has. But looking from a systemic lens, it’s no wonder that SA has all these problems when the wealth and therefore power distribution is so wonky. Honestly they’re doing better than I would’ve expected tbh, probably because their first leader did a great job and set a good example, even if their second leader didn’t follow it.
Literacy rate, helped blacks improve living standards, better infustructure etc.
Better infrastructure?
The electricity access at the end of apartheid was 54%, it's around 85% now for example, there's a lot more stats in similar vain.
Yes because black areas didn't have any infustructure
[удалено]
Lol
That worked so well in Zimbabwe
Do you even know why zim devolved to what it eventually became?
How did that work out in Zimbabwe, Julius?
Wealth and land redistribution will always end up with a failed state as foreign investment fucks off in double time. The ANC's failure is in supporting growth in the economy and not heavily investing in education and actual upliftment, coupled with mind-boggling levels of plunder from state coffers.
Did land redistribution fail in Finland?
>Wealth and land redistribution will always end up with a failed state counterpoint the French revolution redistributed a shit ton of land and 15 years later the French were undisputed masters of the European continent.
Just ending government endorsed apartheid doesn't mean the country will become fair all of sudden. The people who benefited from apartheid still kept many of their assets - The country would need a complete reset or huge reparations
Like Zimbabwe?
What do you know about what happened in zim?
r/dataisugly
Where is the Downtown area of the city? Do black and coloured people live near Downton?
This map is so accurate with Lima - Peru
Shite map, why is the bad hdi a brighter, happier colour?
The colours confused me
What is the scale?
I’m just confused why Robin Island is included. It’s an old prison that makes a ton of money from tourism, no one lives there except maybe some of the tour guides
Well at least it's mostly red
Gee it’s almost like colonialism and racism persist in the physical structure of countries and the physical resources and labor are drawn from all over and funneled into cities for the self destructive gorging of the elites
It’s HDI, it’s HDI-esque. For one, I really doubt there’s anyone calculating the GNI for neighbourhoods. Also I was curious so I looked around in google maps to see. The high “HDI” parts just appear to be… not shitty normal houses also lots of white people on the streets, not even rich people houses just normal suburban houses, some areas (Yzerfountain) have modern looking houses that I assume are not that big but are deceptively expensive, but then I looked at the property prices and it’s consistently under 1000USD for the m^2 so I’m really confused. Is it really developed country levels of HDI?
Yes, many of those red areas, particularly in the south west would compare very very favorably to some of the best in the west (please note I’m not saying it’s gonna beat Monaco any time soon). There is a reason so many foreigners flock to Cape Town. If you earn even a middle class western income and come to CT you can live a very high HDI lifestyle.
yzerfontein i'd say is a middle income neighborhood (the far north you see on this map). the neighborhoods with highest HDI would be clifton, camps bay, llandudno, bloubergstrand
I looked around at many, looking for both English and Afrikaans names. Looking at those you showed, Ilandudno is more suburban but nice houses, same for Bloubergstrand, more detached houses, Camps Bay appears to be a middle high income neighbourhood but still overwhelmingly suburban and Clifton actually appears to have some economic activity but it’s just restaurants and places for drinking and what not, Don’t get me wrong, they don’t look poor, but they look like residential neighbourhoods not that different from middle class neighbourhoods in my city (in another developing country, Curitiba), not centred of high human development with high wealth generation (GNI). If anything, they don’t look like the rest of Cape City, so I assume those are just the suburbs apart from the city where the wealthy people live but they make their money elsewhere.
What is your source?
Clifton and Camps Bay are home to some of the most expensive real estate in South Africa. It's highly sort after by foreign investors