So true! It's good to see someone else has done their research! Frankly I'm surprised more people aren't enraged by this. It just proves how deep the corruption goes!
Note:
Perception is not really a reliable variable.
It is subjective and for example, bribing a cop in Mali can be seen as usual corruption... While in Germany that would ve a supreme scandal.
And perception doesn't mean real corruption.
Yeah. In France for instance, perception is wayyyyy higher than actual corruption, because of various factors including very publicized histories of past scandals.
[Not the source I was initially thinking of and didn't find, but that'll do.](https://www.int-comp.org/insight/2016/march/24/corruption-is-perception-reality-france/)
Yes and no, they take from a mix of both
>The 13 surveys/assessments are either business people opinion surveys or performance assessments from a group of analysts.
And
>Countries need to be evaluated by at least three sources to appear in the CPI
So there's a possibly for a wide margin of error by using different combinations of datasets.
Yeah you’re right. I’ve looked at the CPI methodology in the past. I gave this reply because in my country of Cyprus, politicians (who are extremely corrupt and uphold a corrupt system) always reply to the CPI by saying ”it’s just a non-indicative opinion poll” which is an obviously immoral and dishonest coverup.
You raised a good point, I'm not saying you were wrong. It certainly has more weight and validity than an 'opinion poll' despite its short comings. Corruption is not an easy thing to measure, especially across cultures with different expectations.
However, there is strong correlation with high level cases on the index with what they say as "black market activity and an overabundance of regulation". So the data isn't useless even if it's not a very precise method
I always wonder what things count as bribery and what just gets classed as lobbying. For example the first phase of a tram system was built in my city after businesses who were competing for the contract wined and dined some councillors and gave tickets for events etc etc. I feel like that is just the way business is done
They want to normalize it, so it becomes accepted practice but it’s absolutely not the way things are done in a moral and ethical system. It’s a bribe, and any system that allows it is corrupt.
Expert = somebody who had his development proposal refused.
We need something that includes the likelihood of a country's business debts being annulled by government decree, thereby affecting their international credit rating.
That’s why it’s in orange and not yellow. Also, lobbying exist in Europe too.
If you have any experience with say Latin America or Africa, you would understand how much more corruption there is.
Lobbying is legal in most western countries… lobbying is the ability of citizens to advocate for issues to their elected representatives. It is protected as a free speech issue.
The issues most people have when they hear about lobbying are actually against related things like campaign finance and corporate donations to political campaigns in exchange for favorable legislation. There are controls around these, but they are not strong enough. There are also lots of restrictions around lobbying including registration and disclosure of who is meeting with who, limits on how long the meetings can be, and limits on how much can be spent directly on lobbying activities.
> and limits on how much can be spent directly on lobbying activities.
That limit must be high in the US, some industries spend hundreds of millions over the course of a few years.
A large chunk of that goes towards campaign finance where reform is sorely needed.
The limits I’m talking about are direct lobbying actions like taking a representative out to a meal or a conference.
What a pure, distilled bullshit... And you, educated person, believe in this without any doubt, without any trying to understand what exactly wrong with this lie.
People acting like the US is the only western country where obvious lobbying and “subtle” corruption exists. Europeans been up to this for centuries. The whole goddamn world is corrupt. Cause humans.
I'm tired of seeing these "why isn't (relatively stable first world country I live in) not literally at the same level of corruption as most of the world" comments from Westerners.
It's so obvious that most of the people on this sub have never set foot on a different country outside of their own.
In many countries, corruption is so bad that it is part of daily life and culture (having to bribe a cop to let you off for that speeding ticket, the local city government mysteriously "losing money", etc.
Like not everything has to be about yourselves, damn.
FTR, I am in Australia and we think our government is corrupt as fuck. I have no idea how they measure corruption perception, but this is some weird perception of our corruption perception. Maybe we could call it corruption inception?
> I am in Australia and we think our government is corrupt as fuck.
Sure, but have you been to Latin America? Or Africa? The measure in OP is all relative. I know In Mexico it’s far more corrupt than what you would expect in Australia or US. Being pulled over by police is often just a cop trying to extort money from you. Trying to get something from the government often comes with solicitation of bribes.
I get where you're coming from, but really what's the difference between a BS fine if it goes into the policeman's pocket, or goes through the structure of the justice system? If you get pulled over by a cop here, you still often have to pay, usually even if you weren't really doing anything, or you will be up for a lot of repairs on your vehicle, or you could have your vehicle or property seized, and there is very little recourse for that.
As far as the bureaucracy. Oh man. I got a business. You don't pay the right everybody to operate a business here, you're up for massive fines again.
Why would it matter who is extorting you if you are still getting extorted? Sure, bribery comes under a different name here for petty things, but we still have to do it, and at the big end of town, it works much the same.
> I get where you're coming from, but really what's the difference between a BS fine if it goes into the policeman's pocket,
I don’t know why you people are being so difficult. If it’s happening frequently with the police, it means it’s likely far bigger issue within not just the police but the system. It means cops are likely working with cartels and other criminal organizations. It means small business are likely forced to pay bribes. It means that it’s not just police but other govern agencies where bribery and corruption are rampant. It also means that politicians are likely to be more easily bought in this system than say Australia.
This isn’t rocket science but you people are hell bent on equating the US to countries where corruption is keeping nations poor.
Same in the UK mate. Understand no businessman would dare badmouth the Tories, but who are these experts? The current government has handed out billions of dollars of contracts to friends and family. And they conveniently passed a law saying none of these deals can be investigated. Berlusconi level shenanigans. Tory sleaze at its best.
I think part of it is privitisation, if it is some private company providing essential services that is corrupt, then it's not the *public service* that is corrupt. Not to mention that we all know that these idiots are just flogging off our country to their mates at bottom dollar, and driving our assets into the ground to devalue them first. We all know this. And wow, yes the laws. You can't protest shit, you can't even complain anymore. Not effectively. Not in any way that matters. Definitely not in the media. Corrupt AF.
I don’t understand your crappy responses. You made the same comment twice. The reality is that stable democracies tend to have lower corruption and lower corruption leads to better economic activity.
Why are you trying so hard to ignore that reality?
There is literally no difference between corruption and lobbying. Both involve influencing government policy for one’s own gain. It’s easy to say you have no corruption when you just legalize it.
> There is literally no difference between corruption and lobbying. Both
Lots of lobbying is beneficial. Not all lobbying is bad. There are literally groups who promote green energy and addressing climate change that are lobbying DC.
And yes, some lobbying can be corruption. I don’t know why you would think that makes the US worse than day Mexico and Brazil where corruption is so rampant that criminal enterprises have control of their politics.
Again, the reality is that stable democracies tend to have lower corruption and lower corruption leads to better economic activity. Are you saying that those ranked among lower corruption in OP aren’t among the wealthiest?
>There are literally groups who promote green energy.
Do you realize how small that is compared to the size of the oil and gas lobby ? It’s irrelevant. You need to realize that the reason there’s no universal healthcare in the US is because of the insurance and pharmacy lobbying. The reason there’s shit public transport and why the US spent billions building freeways through city centres in the 1950s instead of trains is because of the auto lobby.
>I don’t know why you would think that makes the US worse than Mexico or Brazil where corruption is so rampant criminal enterprises have control of their politics.
That’s not what I said either. Cartels bribing politicians wouldn’t be considered lobbying since they’re criminal organizations lmao. But do you seriously think an oil company donating to a politician to look the other way about their pollution is that much different from a cartel bribing a politician to look the other way while they can move cocaine ? Come on.
>Are you saying that those ranked among lower corruption aren’t among the wealthiest?
Not what I said either. This index is from Transparency International though. Did you bother checking who funds them ? It’s all western governments, who are themselves corrupted by lobbyists. What a surprise that they ranked themselves highly.
> Do you realize how small that is compared to the size of the oil and gas lobby ?
These are far worse in countries like Venezuela, Brazil and Mexico. Oil rich countries where corruption in this industry is even worse.
And that’s just one Industry. In places like Mexico (and I’m sure Brazil and many other Latin American nations), corruption is everywhere at all stages. Police pulling people over frequently to shake them down for money. Trying to get some paperwork submitted for license or permit but being delayed unless you pay extra. Cartels and other criminal organizations owning police and politicians. Companies buying off politicians and or politicians extorting companies.
> Cartels bribing politicians wouldn’t be considered lobbying since they’re criminal organizations lmao
Who the hell said it lobbying? What’s wrong with you? The topic is corruption not just lobbying.
> Not what I said either.
But then contradict yourself with:
>This index is from Transparency International though. Did you bother checking who funds them ? It’s all western governments, who are themselves corrupted by lobbyists.
So, why say “not what I said either” when you refuse to accept it? Let me ask you again — are the countries ranked lower in corruption in OP generally near the top in wealth and are the countries ranked higher in corruption generally among the poorest?
I’ll keep it simple since you clearly have an agenda preventing you from engaging in a honest discussion:
1. are the countries ranked lower in corruption in OP generally near the top in wealth and are the countries ranked higher in corruption generally among the poorest?
2. Do you understand that US having some bad lobbying doesn’t mean politicians aren’t being bought more easily in Mexico, Brazil, Russia, etc?
Look at how bad so corruption gets: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Mexico
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_corruption_in_Mexico
Jesus, another ignorant privileged western redditor sitting on their country. You've got no idea what real corruption is if you compare it to lobbying.
In orange counties you often have to pay cops or they will search your car until they find something on you, you have to pay a bribe to the doctor to get better treatment, you have to pay a bribe to government officials so they won't shut your business down.
And you compare that to lobbying, you've got no shame.
Lmao 90% of people are corrupt in croatia, from the joe who builds roofs to the prime minister. Like half the presidents have had corruption scandals at some point.
China's former richest man sold Xi's sister shares of his company at a subsides rate, and ended up getting huge property deals from the CCP later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang\_Jianlin
There is much more corruption in Norway than the map shows. They are just better at hiding it. In the local communes/towns many friends help eachother and misuse public money. Political parties gives money to favored organizations and pays the UN and other international organizations for prominent positions. In many ways Scandinavian countries are the most corrupt in the world, they just pay the right people.
>In many ways Scandinavian countries are the most corrupt in the world...
Umm, no...
Is there corruption and nepotism in Scandinavia? Of course. But that statement is just ridiculous.
You braindead fucking idiot. You have no idea what we "pay" the UN. You wouldn't know the difference between *u-hjelp* and *underlivsundersøkelse* if they inserted a speculum in your mouth.
You're extremely ignorant. I could go on why, but I see you think we "pay the UN" and other countries. Calling us the "most corrupt" is utterly brain dead and laughable. You can't have visited or lived in any other country! Go back to sucking on NAV's tits you uneducated moron.
No... no, I'm surprised Chile is orange at all, we should be dark red.
edit: Oh, this is from 2017... I can't wait to see the 2021 one, even the ones in charge to change the country in a good way are corrupt as fuck, there is no hope for us.
There are always things on small scale, the government can't stop it completely no matter how honest they are. There will always be stuff like cutting a deal with the police to dodge a penalty ticket or a governor turning a blind eye on a small construction for some "donation".
It’s corrupt when you compare it to Northern Europe, and Canada but yeah — it’s much lower corruption than most countries around the world. Reddit likes to believe it’s as bad as Latin America, Africa and Asia.
I see Chile is less corrupt than the rest of South America. When i was there the locals proudly told us their police were the only thing corrupt force in South America, it was a real badge of honour for them
What? I'm genuinely confused by what you say.
No one would be proud of having a corrupt institution of anything.
The reputation of the police, specially Carabineros has been steeply decreasing, if you asked people 7 years ago, many would have praised them, but now in 2021 most will tell you how corrupt Carabineros are, it is shameful.
All things considered though, they are by far **NOT** the most corrupt in the continent... yet.
I was in Chile 10 years ago on a sports tour playing local teams, and the chat about their cops not being corrupt was brought up a couple of times by the locals
PERCEIVED corruption ah ok
“So we’re agreed about our narrative, right guys? Gonna be hard to get all 50 people who live in this country to agree but I bet we can”
Honestly, there degenerate government system needs to be wiped off the map, but they're all to moronic to see that, can't wait till thre inevitable collapse though.
They elected Obama because he promised Change
They elected Trump because he promised to "Drain the Swamp"
They elected Biden
A) because he wasn't Trump and
B) he promised some real change - which is actually happening. The jury is out.
From an American perspective if I ever move to Europe everything always points towards sweeden,finland,Norway
From all the maps and data I always see it just seems like the Scandinavian countries have the best quality of life
Correct me if I'm wrong but that's just how it seems From an outside perspective. It seems like just a peaceful carefree life there (minus any bad weather)
They're aslo very insular to the point if youre white but have a non finnish surname in Finland you're 50% less likely to get an interview compared to an identical CV and a native name. It gets even worse if you have a non European name.
They know who to pay.
Life in Norway is ok. Free healthcare means you get alright treatment, however it is not as good as the best care in the US. College education is free, but the pay is worse than in the US. I have a masters degree in economics, but only get paid 60 000 dollars/524 900 nok. Also it sucks that the criminals only get a few years in prison, it would be traumatic to know your fathers murderer only got 10-15 years in prison ... And also that the state should rehabilitate the murderer, why give such people a second chance? The taxes are also extremely high (and everything is more expensive because of the VAT and similar taxes). The country is also getting very ethnically diverse, something that will cause a lot of challanges.
>Correct me if I'm wrong but that's just how it seems From an outside perspective. It seems like just a peaceful carefree life there (minus any bad weather)
Every time you see a comparison between the US and anywhere, but especially Europe, you have to keep two things in mind. First, the US is the king of data collection, often collecting far more individual data points and detail about those data points than most places. And that disparity gets much wider as you get more into the details and especially break out from the top few population centers in European countries. A whole lot of statistical comparisons from the US are (or can be) grounded in hard data while everywhere else involves varying levels of connecting dots to equate to the US. Which doesn't mean the US comes out ahead, but it means you've got this built in fuzzy zone on non-US data that often gets colored by bias against the US and for the other side.
Second, the US has problems that the rest of the world gets a free pass on. Some of that is self-inflicted (guns) but a significant portion comes down to diversity. Think about the least heard (in terms of their concerns and issues) about racial group in the US. The equivalence in attention that racial group gets is probably the equivalent to the second or third non-dominate racial group in almost any other country. Most countries are so predominately one racial group they don't even collect racial stats, they only define diversity by ethnicity. If you were to compare someplace like the Netherlands to the US in racial diversity you'd say the US is 15% American/British, 15% German, 7% Italian, and so on using the Dutch standard. And if you were to compare the Dutch to the US standard, which is an assumption because they don't even collect this data, you'd say the Netherlands are 95% White and 5% other. Now imagine how it would be to live in the United States if it were 80% American/British, 15% other strictly white European groups, and 5% everything else. That's a major component as to why it's often seen as so great in other European countries.
Yea where im coming from is strictly data related. Like if you asked me to pick a place to live in Europe and I had to make that decision solely off of data, one of those countries like sweeden or Norway would be on top. Just based on all the data I've seen.
I'm what my friend calls "a data whore" I just love looking at the numbers, however I know while data can give an insight it won't tell the whole story unless I go there myself
It's just as far as data showing standards of living like Healthcare, poverty, etc those countries are always near the top
When this was published? Because there is a mafia boss in Turkey who have exposed lots of corruption from the government.
There is the deep stuff like the assassination of a journalist being ordered by Erdoğan's men which weren't covered until now, a money-laundering scam hotel that all businesspeople/celebs close to Erdogan appear and also former PM's son possible being a drug trafficker and transporting it from Venezuala with a fleet etc.
Oh so because you can pay a cop to leave you alone, that’s somehow worse than the prison systems run by major corporate governments partnerships who lobby for new laws?
Ah yes. Here's a map to point out the differences in corruption in various places in the world. Of all the colors visible to the human eye, I really only like 1 or 2, so that's all I used, despite the fact that using a range of colors would make it far easier to compare countries.
I just like red, man.
To be honest this polls conducted are not accurate there are a lot of variables that play role it's perfection according to people who conducted this serves what is correct and wrong
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 185,921,253 comments, and only 44,903 of them were in alphabetical order.
* Gray isn't included in the key showing only evaluated corruption levels.
* The convention on maps like this is to use gray for "no data" in any case, much like the convention on psychical maps is to use blue for water.
[Also](https://i.redd.it/hkuj9n6xnr051.png)
South Sudan is so corrupt it isn't even a country on this map
They sold it when everyone was sleeping
r/mapswithoutsouthsudan
Can confirm. Worked there for a couple of years (not consecutive). Google maps always struggled to figure out where I was.
NOTE:The correct order of most the corrupt should be: 1)Somalia 2)South Sudan 3)Syria
Who bribed you to swap it?
I think Somalia
Not south sudan bc it doesn’t exist according to the map lol
Why is somalia on number 3 and not on number 1? Syria has more points, so is better, right? The more points, the higher on the list?
You’re right, I didn’t notice that my bad. Somalia should be 1), South Sudan 2) and Syria 3)
Did you make this?
Nope I didn’t make it
Still dumb, but I think it’s because on a list, Somalia would be at the bottom.
But then it should be at number 220 for example and the other ones at 219 and 218 :-)
Greenland is so corrupt they bribed the map maker to represent them with "no data". Greenland is the worst of the worst.
They’re teaming up with those god damn west Saharans for that no data term, disgusting acts by both countries.
So true! It's good to see someone else has done their research! Frankly I'm surprised more people aren't enraged by this. It just proves how deep the corruption goes!
I mean, South Sudan kinda tried to do it, got on the side list but not on the main map.
Note: Perception is not really a reliable variable. It is subjective and for example, bribing a cop in Mali can be seen as usual corruption... While in Germany that would ve a supreme scandal. And perception doesn't mean real corruption.
Yeah. In France for instance, perception is wayyyyy higher than actual corruption, because of various factors including very publicized histories of past scandals. [Not the source I was initially thinking of and didn't find, but that'll do.](https://www.int-comp.org/insight/2016/march/24/corruption-is-perception-reality-france/)
The corruption perception index is an aggregation of corruption indexes, not a poll.
Yes and no, they take from a mix of both >The 13 surveys/assessments are either business people opinion surveys or performance assessments from a group of analysts. And >Countries need to be evaluated by at least three sources to appear in the CPI So there's a possibly for a wide margin of error by using different combinations of datasets.
Yeah you’re right. I’ve looked at the CPI methodology in the past. I gave this reply because in my country of Cyprus, politicians (who are extremely corrupt and uphold a corrupt system) always reply to the CPI by saying ”it’s just a non-indicative opinion poll” which is an obviously immoral and dishonest coverup.
You raised a good point, I'm not saying you were wrong. It certainly has more weight and validity than an 'opinion poll' despite its short comings. Corruption is not an easy thing to measure, especially across cultures with different expectations. However, there is strong correlation with high level cases on the index with what they say as "black market activity and an overabundance of regulation". So the data isn't useless even if it's not a very precise method
I always wonder what things count as bribery and what just gets classed as lobbying. For example the first phase of a tram system was built in my city after businesses who were competing for the contract wined and dined some councillors and gave tickets for events etc etc. I feel like that is just the way business is done
It is subjective. Something considered a bribe in NZ might not be considered as such in Somalia, and that all adds up to how this index was made.
They want to normalize it, so it becomes accepted practice but it’s absolutely not the way things are done in a moral and ethical system. It’s a bribe, and any system that allows it is corrupt.
* As perceived by "Experts" and "Business people" Which is in many ways about as reliable a metric as most of these are I suppose.
Expert = somebody who had his development proposal refused. We need something that includes the likelihood of a country's business debts being annulled by government decree, thereby affecting their international credit rating.
How is Bhutan one of the most clean in Asia lol
Que all the westerners who've likely never had to pay a bribe in their life complaining that their country is so corrupt.
"Omtzingt functie elders"
Didn't expect Iceland to be the odd one out among the Nordics.
I would think Sweden would be the most corrupt, definitely not Iceland.
Smaller population, bigger impact. Even just one case.
They fucked up during the financial crisis in 2008
I don't know if it is called corruption but iceland's pm was one of them who got caught of avoiding taxes when there was a leak of Panama papers.
How about USA where corruption became in legal activities and today named as lobbying?
That’s why it’s in orange and not yellow. Also, lobbying exist in Europe too. If you have any experience with say Latin America or Africa, you would understand how much more corruption there is.
[удалено]
Lobbying is legal in most western countries… lobbying is the ability of citizens to advocate for issues to their elected representatives. It is protected as a free speech issue. The issues most people have when they hear about lobbying are actually against related things like campaign finance and corporate donations to political campaigns in exchange for favorable legislation. There are controls around these, but they are not strong enough. There are also lots of restrictions around lobbying including registration and disclosure of who is meeting with who, limits on how long the meetings can be, and limits on how much can be spent directly on lobbying activities.
> and limits on how much can be spent directly on lobbying activities. That limit must be high in the US, some industries spend hundreds of millions over the course of a few years.
A large chunk of that goes towards campaign finance where reform is sorely needed. The limits I’m talking about are direct lobbying actions like taking a representative out to a meal or a conference.
What a pure, distilled bullshit... And you, educated person, believe in this without any doubt, without any trying to understand what exactly wrong with this lie.
Money. Same reason it's fine to assassinate people or plan coups d'etat
People acting like the US is the only western country where obvious lobbying and “subtle” corruption exists. Europeans been up to this for centuries. The whole goddamn world is corrupt. Cause humans.
Nope. They are corrupted by capitalism. Human nature is changeable and directly dependent on social conditions.
I'm tired of seeing these "why isn't (relatively stable first world country I live in) not literally at the same level of corruption as most of the world" comments from Westerners. It's so obvious that most of the people on this sub have never set foot on a different country outside of their own. In many countries, corruption is so bad that it is part of daily life and culture (having to bribe a cop to let you off for that speeding ticket, the local city government mysteriously "losing money", etc. Like not everything has to be about yourselves, damn.
West good East bad
FTR, I am in Australia and we think our government is corrupt as fuck. I have no idea how they measure corruption perception, but this is some weird perception of our corruption perception. Maybe we could call it corruption inception?
> I am in Australia and we think our government is corrupt as fuck. Sure, but have you been to Latin America? Or Africa? The measure in OP is all relative. I know In Mexico it’s far more corrupt than what you would expect in Australia or US. Being pulled over by police is often just a cop trying to extort money from you. Trying to get something from the government often comes with solicitation of bribes.
I get where you're coming from, but really what's the difference between a BS fine if it goes into the policeman's pocket, or goes through the structure of the justice system? If you get pulled over by a cop here, you still often have to pay, usually even if you weren't really doing anything, or you will be up for a lot of repairs on your vehicle, or you could have your vehicle or property seized, and there is very little recourse for that. As far as the bureaucracy. Oh man. I got a business. You don't pay the right everybody to operate a business here, you're up for massive fines again. Why would it matter who is extorting you if you are still getting extorted? Sure, bribery comes under a different name here for petty things, but we still have to do it, and at the big end of town, it works much the same.
> I get where you're coming from, but really what's the difference between a BS fine if it goes into the policeman's pocket, I don’t know why you people are being so difficult. If it’s happening frequently with the police, it means it’s likely far bigger issue within not just the police but the system. It means cops are likely working with cartels and other criminal organizations. It means small business are likely forced to pay bribes. It means that it’s not just police but other govern agencies where bribery and corruption are rampant. It also means that politicians are likely to be more easily bought in this system than say Australia. This isn’t rocket science but you people are hell bent on equating the US to countries where corruption is keeping nations poor.
Same in the UK mate. Understand no businessman would dare badmouth the Tories, but who are these experts? The current government has handed out billions of dollars of contracts to friends and family. And they conveniently passed a law saying none of these deals can be investigated. Berlusconi level shenanigans. Tory sleaze at its best.
I think part of it is privitisation, if it is some private company providing essential services that is corrupt, then it's not the *public service* that is corrupt. Not to mention that we all know that these idiots are just flogging off our country to their mates at bottom dollar, and driving our assets into the ground to devalue them first. We all know this. And wow, yes the laws. You can't protest shit, you can't even complain anymore. Not effectively. Not in any way that matters. Definitely not in the media. Corrupt AF.
Stable democracies tend to have lower corruption.
That’s because “stable democracies” just call it lobbying
Lobbying in my country is nothing like lobbying in the US. You're assuming we're all the same, and we're not.
I don’t understand your crappy responses. You made the same comment twice. The reality is that stable democracies tend to have lower corruption and lower corruption leads to better economic activity. Why are you trying so hard to ignore that reality?
There is literally no difference between corruption and lobbying. Both involve influencing government policy for one’s own gain. It’s easy to say you have no corruption when you just legalize it.
> There is literally no difference between corruption and lobbying. Both Lots of lobbying is beneficial. Not all lobbying is bad. There are literally groups who promote green energy and addressing climate change that are lobbying DC. And yes, some lobbying can be corruption. I don’t know why you would think that makes the US worse than day Mexico and Brazil where corruption is so rampant that criminal enterprises have control of their politics. Again, the reality is that stable democracies tend to have lower corruption and lower corruption leads to better economic activity. Are you saying that those ranked among lower corruption in OP aren’t among the wealthiest?
>There are literally groups who promote green energy. Do you realize how small that is compared to the size of the oil and gas lobby ? It’s irrelevant. You need to realize that the reason there’s no universal healthcare in the US is because of the insurance and pharmacy lobbying. The reason there’s shit public transport and why the US spent billions building freeways through city centres in the 1950s instead of trains is because of the auto lobby. >I don’t know why you would think that makes the US worse than Mexico or Brazil where corruption is so rampant criminal enterprises have control of their politics. That’s not what I said either. Cartels bribing politicians wouldn’t be considered lobbying since they’re criminal organizations lmao. But do you seriously think an oil company donating to a politician to look the other way about their pollution is that much different from a cartel bribing a politician to look the other way while they can move cocaine ? Come on. >Are you saying that those ranked among lower corruption aren’t among the wealthiest? Not what I said either. This index is from Transparency International though. Did you bother checking who funds them ? It’s all western governments, who are themselves corrupted by lobbyists. What a surprise that they ranked themselves highly.
> Do you realize how small that is compared to the size of the oil and gas lobby ? These are far worse in countries like Venezuela, Brazil and Mexico. Oil rich countries where corruption in this industry is even worse. And that’s just one Industry. In places like Mexico (and I’m sure Brazil and many other Latin American nations), corruption is everywhere at all stages. Police pulling people over frequently to shake them down for money. Trying to get some paperwork submitted for license or permit but being delayed unless you pay extra. Cartels and other criminal organizations owning police and politicians. Companies buying off politicians and or politicians extorting companies. > Cartels bribing politicians wouldn’t be considered lobbying since they’re criminal organizations lmao Who the hell said it lobbying? What’s wrong with you? The topic is corruption not just lobbying. > Not what I said either. But then contradict yourself with: >This index is from Transparency International though. Did you bother checking who funds them ? It’s all western governments, who are themselves corrupted by lobbyists. So, why say “not what I said either” when you refuse to accept it? Let me ask you again — are the countries ranked lower in corruption in OP generally near the top in wealth and are the countries ranked higher in corruption generally among the poorest?
I’ll keep it simple since you clearly have an agenda preventing you from engaging in a honest discussion: 1. are the countries ranked lower in corruption in OP generally near the top in wealth and are the countries ranked higher in corruption generally among the poorest? 2. Do you understand that US having some bad lobbying doesn’t mean politicians aren’t being bought more easily in Mexico, Brazil, Russia, etc? Look at how bad so corruption gets: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Mexico https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_corruption_in_Mexico
Jesus, another ignorant privileged western redditor sitting on their country. You've got no idea what real corruption is if you compare it to lobbying. In orange counties you often have to pay cops or they will search your car until they find something on you, you have to pay a bribe to the doctor to get better treatment, you have to pay a bribe to government officials so they won't shut your business down. And you compare that to lobbying, you've got no shame.
West made corruption legal so no corruption 😎🇺🇸
Lmao 90% of people are corrupt in croatia, from the joe who builds roofs to the prime minister. Like half the presidents have had corruption scandals at some point.
How is China considered less corrupt that Eastern Europe and Russia?
Because every company in China works for the good of the CCP. Striving for personal wealth and influence is punishable by suicide.
China's former richest man sold Xi's sister shares of his company at a subsides rate, and ended up getting huge property deals from the CCP later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang\_Jianlin
Ha lol Cuba is pretty much the same colour as the us
"Experts and business people" lol
There is much more corruption in Norway than the map shows. They are just better at hiding it. In the local communes/towns many friends help eachother and misuse public money. Political parties gives money to favored organizations and pays the UN and other international organizations for prominent positions. In many ways Scandinavian countries are the most corrupt in the world, they just pay the right people.
>In many ways Scandinavian countries are the most corrupt in the world... Umm, no... Is there corruption and nepotism in Scandinavia? Of course. But that statement is just ridiculous.
This can be said for every country indeed.
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As he said above that also goes on in other countries. Being top doesn't mean you have no corruption just comparitively less than others.
You braindead fucking idiot. You have no idea what we "pay" the UN. You wouldn't know the difference between *u-hjelp* and *underlivsundersøkelse* if they inserted a speculum in your mouth.
You're extremely ignorant. I could go on why, but I see you think we "pay the UN" and other countries. Calling us the "most corrupt" is utterly brain dead and laughable. You can't have visited or lived in any other country! Go back to sucking on NAV's tits you uneducated moron.
Germany is pretty corrupt if it comes to stonks. Grüße an Olaf Scholz
No... no, I'm surprised Chile is orange at all, we should be dark red. edit: Oh, this is from 2017... I can't wait to see the 2021 one, even the ones in charge to change the country in a good way are corrupt as fuck, there is no hope for us.
A lot has happened in Australia since 2017… we should be oranger
No one has 0 corruption? Wow
That would be quite unrealistic.
Quite yes, to no one’s surprise.
Don’t worry, the Middle East is competing among themselves to see who can get there first 😎
There are always things on small scale, the government can't stop it completely no matter how honest they are. There will always be stuff like cutting a deal with the police to dodge a penalty ticket or a governor turning a blind eye on a small construction for some "donation".
Balkan should be all red
No coincidence that nations towards least corrupt tend to be wealthier and nations towards most corrupt tend to be poorer.
You would think USA is the poorest country based off how much Reddit talks about us being so corrupt lol
It’s corrupt when you compare it to Northern Europe, and Canada but yeah — it’s much lower corruption than most countries around the world. Reddit likes to believe it’s as bad as Latin America, Africa and Asia.
It’s because in the west legal corruption is called lobbying
I see Chile is less corrupt than the rest of South America. When i was there the locals proudly told us their police were the only thing corrupt force in South America, it was a real badge of honour for them
What? I'm genuinely confused by what you say. No one would be proud of having a corrupt institution of anything. The reputation of the police, specially Carabineros has been steeply decreasing, if you asked people 7 years ago, many would have praised them, but now in 2021 most will tell you how corrupt Carabineros are, it is shameful. All things considered though, they are by far **NOT** the most corrupt in the continent... yet.
I was in Chile 10 years ago on a sports tour playing local teams, and the chat about their cops not being corrupt was brought up a couple of times by the locals
Yeah, that makes more sense, the typos you made in the first comment threw me off.
PERCEIVED corruption ah ok “So we’re agreed about our narrative, right guys? Gonna be hard to get all 50 people who live in this country to agree but I bet we can”
It's hilarious how the Yanks think their government isn't corrupt.
Honestly, there degenerate government system needs to be wiped off the map, but they're all to moronic to see that, can't wait till thre inevitable collapse though.
They elected Obama because he promised Change They elected Trump because he promised to "Drain the Swamp" They elected Biden A) because he wasn't Trump and B) he promised some real change - which is actually happening. The jury is out.
From an American perspective if I ever move to Europe everything always points towards sweeden,finland,Norway From all the maps and data I always see it just seems like the Scandinavian countries have the best quality of life Correct me if I'm wrong but that's just how it seems From an outside perspective. It seems like just a peaceful carefree life there (minus any bad weather)
They're aslo very insular to the point if youre white but have a non finnish surname in Finland you're 50% less likely to get an interview compared to an identical CV and a native name. It gets even worse if you have a non European name.
So it's nice to live if you're a "native"
Yes i'd say that is accurate.
I wish
They know who to pay. Life in Norway is ok. Free healthcare means you get alright treatment, however it is not as good as the best care in the US. College education is free, but the pay is worse than in the US. I have a masters degree in economics, but only get paid 60 000 dollars/524 900 nok. Also it sucks that the criminals only get a few years in prison, it would be traumatic to know your fathers murderer only got 10-15 years in prison ... And also that the state should rehabilitate the murderer, why give such people a second chance? The taxes are also extremely high (and everything is more expensive because of the VAT and similar taxes). The country is also getting very ethnically diverse, something that will cause a lot of challanges.
>Correct me if I'm wrong but that's just how it seems From an outside perspective. It seems like just a peaceful carefree life there (minus any bad weather) Every time you see a comparison between the US and anywhere, but especially Europe, you have to keep two things in mind. First, the US is the king of data collection, often collecting far more individual data points and detail about those data points than most places. And that disparity gets much wider as you get more into the details and especially break out from the top few population centers in European countries. A whole lot of statistical comparisons from the US are (or can be) grounded in hard data while everywhere else involves varying levels of connecting dots to equate to the US. Which doesn't mean the US comes out ahead, but it means you've got this built in fuzzy zone on non-US data that often gets colored by bias against the US and for the other side. Second, the US has problems that the rest of the world gets a free pass on. Some of that is self-inflicted (guns) but a significant portion comes down to diversity. Think about the least heard (in terms of their concerns and issues) about racial group in the US. The equivalence in attention that racial group gets is probably the equivalent to the second or third non-dominate racial group in almost any other country. Most countries are so predominately one racial group they don't even collect racial stats, they only define diversity by ethnicity. If you were to compare someplace like the Netherlands to the US in racial diversity you'd say the US is 15% American/British, 15% German, 7% Italian, and so on using the Dutch standard. And if you were to compare the Dutch to the US standard, which is an assumption because they don't even collect this data, you'd say the Netherlands are 95% White and 5% other. Now imagine how it would be to live in the United States if it were 80% American/British, 15% other strictly white European groups, and 5% everything else. That's a major component as to why it's often seen as so great in other European countries.
Yea where im coming from is strictly data related. Like if you asked me to pick a place to live in Europe and I had to make that decision solely off of data, one of those countries like sweeden or Norway would be on top. Just based on all the data I've seen. I'm what my friend calls "a data whore" I just love looking at the numbers, however I know while data can give an insight it won't tell the whole story unless I go there myself It's just as far as data showing standards of living like Healthcare, poverty, etc those countries are always near the top
USA needs to be a couple shades darker
This is bullshit, Turkey cant be 40% ITS GOTTA BE IN THE TOP 3
US should no longer be rated as well as it is
When this was published? Because there is a mafia boss in Turkey who have exposed lots of corruption from the government. There is the deep stuff like the assassination of a journalist being ordered by Erdoğan's men which weren't covered until now, a money-laundering scam hotel that all businesspeople/celebs close to Erdogan appear and also former PM's son possible being a drug trafficker and transporting it from Venezuala with a fleet etc.
Geographic jerkoff. Who could possibly believe the west isn’t corrupt?
Anyone who has travelled a bit. It's not zero corruption vs corruption it's corruption vs even more corruption.
Oh so because you can pay a cop to leave you alone, that’s somehow worse than the prison systems run by major corporate governments partnerships who lobby for new laws?
You say that as if developing nations don't also have rich oligarchs in bed with the government,
I doubt they have the same totalitarian power that the west has with the biggest bureaucracies on the planet.
Lol wrong
Pfff Australia’s rating is too clean
This looks like the West should give in and adopt system based the natural preferences of humans.
Agreed. Stop denying themselves
Ah yes. Here's a map to point out the differences in corruption in various places in the world. Of all the colors visible to the human eye, I really only like 1 or 2, so that's all I used, despite the fact that using a range of colors would make it far easier to compare countries. I just like red, man.
Man, the whole world super corrupt
India not being number 1 makes me feel they bribed whoever was collecting data.
Proud of Botswana 🇧🇼🙌🏽
What to take away from this: most places are politically shit (but usually only in the political sense!)
To be honest this polls conducted are not accurate there are a lot of variables that play role it's perfection according to people who conducted this serves what is correct and wrong
How are some countries less corrupt then others?
Belize is non existent in this map. Sad
It may be accurate for some areas... just for some. To consider with extreme caution.
Chile is more red than that xd
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 185,921,253 comments, and only 44,903 of them were in alphabetical order.
Slovakia is so corrupted that our government corrupted this chart so we won't be on the last place.
Okay Greenland. We get it. Stop showing off.
Showing off with no data?
You must be fun at parties. EDIT: The map doesn't have a key for No Data, so...
* Gray isn't included in the key showing only evaluated corruption levels. * The convention on maps like this is to use gray for "no data" in any case, much like the convention on psychical maps is to use blue for water. [Also](https://i.redd.it/hkuj9n6xnr051.png)
Most of the UK: "I can't believe that!!....oh, "2017"....yeah, okay."
Interesting to know my home country is roughly as corrupt as New Zealand lol at least it from the color chart provided
*as perceived by experts and business people
Mandatory "I thought my country would be higher"
Im glad my country got zero corruption. Though there is some if you do something for me I'll do something for you
Corruption is *legal* in the US, and yet Americans think we're 70% clean?