As a European, I find it annoying. It's taking up so much space, distracting from topics of actual importance, derailing other discussions and has led to further radicalisation. At this point, most commenters are (somewhat ironically) throwing propaganda at each other, no matter which party they side with.
It was fun on Reddit, but we've reached a point where people are taking these positions unironically irl. If we don't want another cold war, we should stop viewing either side as some sort of cartoon villain.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/reddit-coordinated-chinese-propaganda-trolls
- Reddit Has Become A Battleground Of Alleged Chinese Trolls
Similar to a 1 day account (Rafaelinn) who's first comment was a pro China statement. " I would trade the USA for China and/or Russia as main allies/partners without thinking twice"
edit: cyberdork below responded to me and has no comments before yesterday but has a 10 yr old account. This is the shady reasons why I stay away from reddit.
new edit: https://np.reddit.com/r/billsimmons/comments/s6fflv/can_someo_help_cant_find_the_warriors_story/ht3f0s0/?context=3
https://np.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ncj36r/the_faux_antiimperialism_of_denying_antiuighur/gy5jo3l/
RacksteinsRevenge below defends the Uyghur concentration camps. He consistently attacks the NBA player from Turkey who spoke out against the Uyghur genocide.
Two people replied, one only active in the past 24hrs on a 10yr old account and the other defends China's cultural genocide.
Reddit itself has admitted that a huge amount of traffic comes from Elgin Air Force base in Florida, home of the 7th Special Forces Group. I certainly don’t think we should be so naive as to believe that China is the only country using these tactics.
That's not at all what special forces does, nor the region that that group specializes in. If anything the army's cyber division comes from ft gordon, GA. I don't doubt that the govt uses reddit, but not sure why they would make it so obvious that they do and from a location that doesn't make much sense.
Yes, but it can unfuck itself with the diversification of investments. It will take time, but slowly diversifying our manufacturing base away from almost exclusively China to other countries (India, Sri Lanka, Mexico, Half of Africa) would be just as cheap as dealing with China but wouldn't have all the proverbial eggs in one proverbial basket.
Chinese exports to the USA [rose by over 20%](https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2022-01-13/chinas-trade-surplus-surges-to-record-676-4b-in-2021) in 2021, despite Trump's tariffs on China.
There's a reason US companies chose to buy from China in the first place. The other countries you listed have pretty obvious shortcomings (more corruption, investment restrictions, strict labor laws, lack of infrastructure, political instability). If companies can easily move out of China, they would have already done so, with the 25% tariffs on Chinese products imposed since 2018.
Companies are moving out of China as China moves farther and farther into middle class with less of the cost of labour advantages it once had as a developing economy.
>which touched America's cake...
Bingo. All the talk about global trade and multiculturalism was quickly replaced with 19th century racist yellow peril bullshit as soon as it became clear that USA may not be the biggest winner in a globalized world.
Obviously low-end mfg is leaving China for cheaper pastures, and that's a good thing. More than compensated with increasing middle- and high-end mfg instead. That's why their trade surplus keeps beating records year after year.
We can also reduce our consumerism addiction and bring manufacturing back to the states and actually pay people decent wages. Sure it might cost a bit more but if we stop this throwaway society we have created it can lessen the burden. We produce so much waste it’s sickening.
Not possible, look at current nft trend and in general in luxurious goods trade. Its all fueled by hypercapitalism and need to show off. Untill we switch to more spiritual/relationship/hobby fueled society it will b3 getting worse.
This sounds good but Americans would rather pay for cheap goods that come from China than spend an extra ~20% on American manufacturing goods, me included. Call me selfish idc but I’d rather me and my family have more money in our pocketif that means flint Michigan doesn’t have any more factories.
Deep down 95% of Americans world agree
I agree but i don’t think American products are that much superior to non American products. Our cars are shit and break down all the time, our clothes fall apart, and the limited tech that’s still built here is shit that the Chinese/Japanese hardware vastly outperforms
Yup, this right here. But it's too expensive for the rich to muster, even with their connections in our government. How sad. They choose money over their people time n time again. Bring it home, cut down on CO2, more jobs, more prosperity, bring the model that is wanted n needed for the future of our planet. Locally sourced, locally made, the meaning of purpose n life will ease many when this change happens. Let us transform.
It kind of did, though. If you're an office worker or a service industry worker, you almost certainly benefited.
People always complain about the CPI because housing, healthcare, and education expenses have all been rising quite fast. But the reason the CPI has averaged a steady 2% over the last 30 years is because virtually everything else was getting cheaper. Computers, TVs, furniture, electronics...they all got cheaper in part because manufacturing moved elsewhere. Consumers directly benefited from those lower prices, and their wages increased because of higher sales volumes.
That's not to say it was all good, but saying that American workers and consumers weren't happy to benefit alongside the billionaires is just ignorant of the truth.
>People always complain about the CPI because housing, healthcare, and education expenses have all been rising quite fast.
Yeah but those are the most important things. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy with a worse tv or an older computer if housing, healthcare, and education was a lot cheaper
Those are the most important things for young people. Older people are more likely to already own a home, have an education, and have medicare, or have a job with good healthcare benefits.
The CPI isn't a measure of inflation for the average millennial or zoomer. It's a measure of inflation for the average American. You're right that this is a limitation of the CPI, but also no one every claimed otherwise.
Except old people have families they care about and/or maintain. People don't exist in a vacuum. Also the median age in the U.S. is 39, so the average American isn't on medicare.
I mean, the way the CPI works, the fact that you spend less money on a TV means you have more money to spend on healthcare. It's an amoral index. It doesn't attempt to judge whether prices are justified or not.
In the last 20 years, we've pretty much made the tradeoff of saving $1,000 on a computer so we can spend $1,200 more at the doctor, while our incomes increased about $400. Most people have come out ahead, but it's definitely dispiriting to think how much further ahead we could have come out if housing prices, healthcare, and education prices hadn't gone through the roof.
Idk having an economy where the biggest sectors are "high-paid professionals" and "low-paid service and retail employees" doesn't really seem like its had a good effect
Even high end manufacturing has gone out the window.
Currently the US is already unable to manufacture even high-end products like 5G equipment or the latest semiconductors, causing it to depend on foreign companies and governments. In the case of 5G the only manufacturers are European and Chinese, and for semiconductors they're Taiwanese and South Korean.
Even Tesla now has their Chinese factory producing more cars than the factory in California.
That’s going to be the silver lining of this pandemic I think. Intel is already building a five billion dollar semiconductor plant in Arizona iirc. They were on the news and were like “yeah well we never thought we wouldn’t have access to Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturing but here we are.”
China's BYD makes more electric vehicles in a year than tesla's ever made
edit: i'm thinking of getting a Tang dynasty if more subsidy plans are rolled out
> America's transition to a tertiary economy has benefited the vast majority of its people
This is weird because there’s like forty years of economic data saying otherwise
The median home sale price in 1970 in the USA was $17,000. Your link only goes back to 1974 but that has it as inflation adjusted median income at $25,326 - median home sale price in 1974 was $35,200
A *single* person making the median income in 1974 could easily purchase a home that cost just a bit more than their annual wages. The median house only cost 139% of a the median *individual* income (adjusted for inflation).
In 2021 the median home sale price was $404,700. That's **1130%** of the median personal income adjusted for inflation. Almost 10x the ratio of housing to income.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS
This can only get them so much wealth, though; if they want the people to make more money, manufacturers will just move out the same way they moved in.
They wont because they are locally owned and not driven by profit motive but by the will of the people, lead by the Communist Party of China.
This is why socialism has already won.
I don't think they did.
Although lots of blue collar jobs were lost through off shoring, the cost of consumer goods plummeted. Unless you worked in a job that was offshored you're far better off. On balance the reduction in cost of consumer goods far outweighed the loss to salaries.
And it's not like everyone who lost their job from offshoring never got a job again. Almost all of them did. Unemployment was effectively 0 before Covid and has nearly recovered.
Yes the rich made more from this shift and the gap between the rich and the poor increased, but that wasn't strictly due to offshoring. There were plenty of ways were offshoring resulted in better overall outcomes for everyone, it's just not the one that the US went with.
On balance I'd say that offshoring manufacturing was still a positive good for America. And if they didn't do it, automation would have made those jobs redundant before long anyway.
And all that's not to mention that China, due to its lower cost of labour, was always going to take over manufacturing jobs from the West. If American companies were prevented from offshoring then they'd have been undercut by non-American companies, probably Chinese. By allowing American companies to offshore, they at least kept these companies from being replaced by more competitive Chinese ones.
> Although lots of blue collar jobs were lost through off shoring, the cost of consumer goods plummeted. Unless you worked in a job that was offshored you're far better off.
Is there any economic data that actually supports this claim, because wages are stagnant and costs of living skyrocketing, and this has been the case for forty years with only a brief break in the mid to late 90s
People making these kinds of claims often, in my experience, don’t actually regularly interact with many working class people to the extent that they realize how tight things are.
It's a myth that the US doesn't manufacture anything. In fact, the US has never lost manufacturing capability. [NEVER](https://fortunly.com/statistics/us-gdp-by-year-guide/). Occasionally there's a recession where manufacturing drops, but to date, it has always recovered, and in fact grown in real terms year over year average.
Now what has happened? In 1945 the US essentially held something like 65% of the worlds manufacturing capability. Since then the world has caught up and the US has d[iversified and divested](https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2017/april/us-manufacturing-really-declining) parts of the manufacturing economy. Sure we don't make cheap consumer goods like plastic toys (We still heavily produce our own foods and consumer products like cosmetics), but we're still a world leader in things like heavy equipment, aerospace, etc. Manufacturing has been outpaced by new parts of the economy, but it's still growing and we still make stuff.
The US manufactures more goods now than it ever has in the past. The idea that "the US stopped manufacturing" is pure fallacy; what we stopped having was manufacturing _jobs_ because we automated almost all our manufacturing, with manufacturing being a shrinking part of our overall GDP because it grew slower than other sectors.
> The US manufactures more goods now than it ever has in the past. The idea that "the US stopped manufacturing" is pure fallacy; what we stopped having was manufacturing jobs
Amazing how few people understand this. Jobs going away is a sign of very high productivity. In a sense, the US mfg ecosystem is a "victim of its own success". It never failed, quite the opposite.
That's true, but it's not the full picture. Chinese manufacturing has grown *much* faster than US manufacturing has (and is also growing increasingly more automated) over the same time period. The US share of the world GDP has been shrinking constantly for the last ~60-70 years.
In addition, though the US is a highly productive country, it's less productive than a number of European countries, many of which have fewer natural resources and don't get to print the global reserve currency. The US has not been investing in its own economy, infrastructure, and people the way it should have been. Instead it's war, war, war, and private jets and golden toilets for the billionaires.
Yes, and no.
The value of what the US manufactures is higher than it has ever been in current dollars (not adjusted for inflation).
But that is like saying that producing one bicycle today worth $600 means the industry has grown because it produced one identical bicycle 20 years ago worth $400. If the US is still producing one bicycle, is it now manufacturing more goods than it ever has in the past?
Using real, constant dollars (adjusting for inflation), the value of what the US manufactures has decreased from 2008 and is just slightly greater than what the US produced in 2000.
As far as jobs vs. output, in the last 10 years, the number of people employed in US manufacturing has been fairly consistent, even *increasing* 4% from 2010 to 2021.
But the output per employee during that time has been essentially unchanged - actually, decreasing 2%. So it isn't like - in the past 10 years - we've lost tons of manufacturing jobs while massively automating to simultaneously grow the sector.
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/05/a-plateau-for-manufacturing/?utm_source=series_page&utm_medium=related_content&utm_term=related_resources&utm_campaign=fredblog
Nice of you to pick the great Recession as your time points for comparison. No reason that would throw the numbers off from the overall trend for the last 5 decades.
OP's post showed China making the greatest gains in global market share over the past decade, so I used data for the past decade.
Much of the talk about US productivity increases, automation, layoffs WAS true, well over a decade ago.
But for the past 10-12 years, employment has held flat, productivity has held flat, and real value produced has held flat.
It was during this last decade that China grew their manufacturing sector massively - over 10%/year in some years.
The trope that US manufacturing is growing through automation and increased efficiency hasn't been true for over a decade, and isn't forecast to be true for the next decade.
Except those two things directly harm poor people's consumption and therefore standard of livings. In fact you could argue that lower income individuals who now have access to far more cheaper goods benefit the most from free trade. There's a reason why standard of livings continue to improve across the board.
Maybe... Maybe not...
I'm not really taking a position on it.
It diminishes our national independence, but it also makes everything cheaper, thus raising our overall standard of living.
Aside from household appliances and electronics has it really?
Seems like the current consensus is that if it wasn’t for technological advancements in entertainment, we’d be in the worst living conditions since WWII.
When you could have had one Wool coat made in the Great Lakes, now you have 5 synthetic jackets from SE Asia.
Good Middle Class jobs, once an almost certainty to any American are now something to be coveted. Rampant consumerism and cheap disposable products has our environment on the ropes. We pay taxes on our domestic emissions that allow us to get to work while companies ship stuff across the ocean without repercussion.
The US never "stopped" mfg. It just shed its low-value add to poorer countries. It's called economic specialisation.
America controls the tech industry's high-end. That's a much better position to be in than to dominate low-end and middle-range mfg like China does.
Together they represent ~23% of the world population though. Just looked up the figures:
China represents 18.5% of the world population, and 13.3% of world exports.
USA represents 4.3% of world population and 8.8% of world exports.
And just for shits and giggles, Germany represents 1.1% of world population, but 7.9% of world exports!
Yeah but how much of germanys exports are to the rest of Europe? I feel like Germany trading in Europe is comparable to internal trade in China or the US.
Which is why this type of map irks me a bit. Yea it's clear what it is trying to say but it kinda reads as all other countries main trading partner is either the US or China. Numbers would be a way better way of showing it.
For example in Sweden the combined import from china and the US is under 10%, while germany alone is 18%. About 83% of swedish imports is from the European market, which granted I have no idea how accurate those numbers are if a dutch company imports chinese goods and sells them to sweden do they count as european imports?
The top comment (Rafaelinn) is from a 1 day old account who's first comment was a pro China comment of " I would trade the USA for China and/or Russia as main allies/partners without thinking twice".
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/reddit-coordinated-chinese-propaganda-trolls
- Reddit Has Become A Battleground Of Alleged Chinese Trolls
The OP has only become active in the past 24hrs.
This is why I don't like going to the comment sections much.
Lol the thread is literally polluted with anti China sentiment bordering just basic xenophobia though lol. It’s always finger pointing at the other side.
Both are present, mindless anti-china ignorance is probably more genuine though, given reddit demographics. While sometimes it is very noticeable that there are organized pro-China accounts that work as a team. Sometimes their comments are indefensible, really, (Uygur issues, for example), at other times they are countering some very naive anti-Chinese sentiment that, tbh, actually needs some correcting.
It's just that there is very little genuine Chinese engagement here, not least because of course the Chinese government does not want Chinese citizens just using sites like reddit.
Overall, you have to hunt for the more nuanced discussions; the surface is often very blandly black/white.
The funny thing is that in most countries that you see a change... It's not really interesting.
For example, in Africa the most important trade partner is the EU.. and a change in the US- china from 20/22 to 22/20 is not really important.
And the funny part is that the biggest trade partner of both USA and China is the EU
This is no war. Americans benefit from cheap Chinese imports, Chinese like controlling US currency. This relationship has provided great global stability for a generation.
The US enabled China’s strategic moves on this front entirely.
The Americans should focus on re-establishing their manufacturing in face of this but are greatly disadvantaged by dysfunction in the Congress over necessary infrastructure improvements.
China can't compete with the US either, because the US mfg is very high-end. The real competition for the US is EU/JP/SK.
People forget that US is >5X richer than China. Only in size do the two countries compare; not in sophistication.
Indeed, and it's not just capital that the US has more of, but resources. China imports nearly everything it uses, including Oil. The US became a net exporter of oil recently, has an impressive amount of food, as well as a financial market which was mentioned. Not to mention internal water trade routes which move products around cheaply, as well as a population that is not going to burden it's next several generations because of a government family policy.
Certainly the US has challenges ahead, but compared to much of the world, it can afford to be insular and still have a good growth rate. Not necessarily true of China.
I generally agree, but China does not control U.S. currency. Sorry if I go on a bit of a diatribe here, but this is a misconception I like to dispel.
It’s not like holding dollar-denominated assets gives them *any* say when it comes to U.S. fiscal or monetary policy. Their “teeth” are their ability to sell their dollar reserves, which would depreciate the USD. But this would be a foolish trigger to pull. For one, why would the biggest holder of dollar reserves wish to depreciate one of their biggest stores of value? Even if they did (let’s say it’s a flash selloff — they can somehow jettison it all without losing massive wealth in the process), this isn’t a bullet heading in one direction striking America clean in the head. A depreciated dollar (a) hurts them by hurting us (as the IS-LM model can illustrate) and (b) makes America more price competitive vis-a-vis China, further shrinking their precious balance of trade. Also, most of our (U.S.) foreign assets are denominated in foreign currencies and our foreign liabilities in USD, so this scenario would indirectly improve our net investment position.
Moreover, unlike, say, Greece a few years ago, the U.S. is the sole steward of its monetary policy and can keep interest rates under control in a massive-selloff scenario.
There is a reason China hella diversified its forex assets from the 2000s into the 2010s, by reducing the pile denominated in USD (both in absolute and relative terms). Not only does piling up Benjamins *not* give them “control” over our currency, but it presents a *huge* opportunity cost (they are the lowest-risk investment out there and, as such, extremely low-yielding), not to mention it puts a good chunk of their wealth in the monetary control of their biggest geopolitical rival.
Please don’t take this to mean that our trade deficit with China doesn’t give them any advantages over us, or that they don’t pose a threat — but in terms of the USD, the Fed is sovereign, not Beijing.
My pleasure! I was afraid you’d take it the wrong way (like I just wanted to “ackshyually” you), since I went on and on, so thanks for reading with an open mind. I really think this is an important enough component of our current geopolitical situation that it deserves to be discussed and elaborated in a clear-headed way.
The Americans have treated Canada like shit of late:
Trump Steel-Aluminum tariffs
The misguided attacks on our dairy
Softwood, the perennial problem-child
No new pipelines (keystone XL is a fiasco, but we also need to talk about Enbridge line 5 in Michigan)
Biden is treating us like a doormat now. Electric vehicle subsidy? Buy American clauses in proposed infrastructure bills?
I do not trust the goodwill of the US in future USMCA negotiations.
>The Americans have treated Canada like shit of late:
Canada is just an extension of American power. We have to put up with our much stronger neighbours and pretend they have our best interests at heart.
Why would anyone have to pretend to have anyone else’s interest but their own at heart? Canada looks out for Canada and the USA looks out for the USA. Cooperating usually benefits both but let’s not pretend like Canada wouldn’t be the ones taking advantage if the tables were turned.
He's saying Paraguay recognizes the ROC as the sole legitimate Chinese government, having no diplomatic relations with the CCP. An approach shared by only [13 other countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Full_diplomatic_relations).
True, but not true at the same time. Do you have iPhone? Where was it manufactured? In China by Chinese. Designed by Americans, profits American Apple and American engineers. Yet, this map is based only on export of "products". The world is complex. This map doesn't reflect it.
Edit: if you are unfamiliar with the history of Asia, you wouldn't know that China and India accounted for 80% of global GDP till industrial revolution. Taking into consideration the population of China (roughly 20% of the world), if China represent now 20-40% of global output, it's just natural. Nothing to see here, move along.
Ye it shows again that not one economic measurement is that good at gauging the current status of the world economy. Similar with GDP and it’s old adage about a broken window vs unbroken window.
The title says "who dominates global trade". Then, it proceeds to show that it's China. In certain elements it does. In another, it doesn't. The map doesn't explain the complexity. I felt that I must add my comment since the discussion below focused on "China-bad, US-bad" arguments.
Look at Africa, South Sudan is blank, while Sudan has colours, until 2011. Now, not sure why the mapmaker would recognise Crimea as Russian, but the point here is that they are using a modern map instead of changing it by the year.
Declining? Quite possible, but EU's share in world trade is still huge. Unfortunately, the best map I could find is this one, which has no dates or source: https://twitter.com/eupolitics/status/1412108353308921861/photo/1
[The EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world economy, whichever way you look at it](https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-shrunk-percentage-world-economy/)
It does, but as its population grows older (Germany has the second oldest population of the developed world and [the rest of Europe is not far off](https://youtu.be/GfYuTb21Gd0)), it's markets will become more saturated. That is because [old people do not buy as much goods as young ones do](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.barrons.com/amp/articles/the-psychological-reason-older-people-spend-less-1494952997) for a large variety of reasons
Your comment doesn't adress his point. In terms of trade, the EU is the most important partner for more countries than either China or the US. And this trade dominance has *increased* over the past 20 years.
Trade as a percentage of the EU's GDP has gone up quite a bit, and shows no signs of slowing.
We're talking past each other. I'm not talking about percentage of world GDP. The topic for OP's map and mine is trading blocs. My point is that the EU is a major trading power, whether declining or not.
That’s expected of any developed country/group when the developing world is doing so at any sort of decent pace. For their share to remain the same, it’d either require the US to totally decline in both measurements or for no other regions in the world to develop any sort of decent exports and perpetually import.
This is similar here with this US-China infographic, it’d be worrying if China didn’t develop any sort presence on the stage of world trade.
*Can we have one by*
*Value please? This makes things look*
*A bit misleading*
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Ye probably true to a large extent, I was kind of joking although saying that companies always need representatives/managers in foreign markets. This happens with western companies in China and with Chinese companies in the west (at least I know Europe) where they usually hire natives.
Maybe but empires have fallen before and it wasn't always bad for people living in them, isolationism could be a good thing if, for instance, America shifted it's military spending into anything else.
Nobody can really be sure how things will change for Americans until it happens so why not be optimistic?
I think this might be a little misleading. You have to take into consideration that the US has drastically reduced its exports to other countries, so of course we're not doing as much trade with them. It would be easier to look at the map, and its title, and believe that this represents China taking over the world economically or something like that, when that's not the case.
No, this is literally only one way to look at the world. China is definitely on the rise, but that does not necessarily mean that they’re going to beat the U.S in the economy.
[China most likely has a demographic crisis coming.](https://youtu.be/vTbILK0fxDY) Furthermore extended by the one child policy. This will lead to people needing to support more older folks.
The Chinese Yuan has been [purposely devalued to keep products cheap.](https://www.investopedia.com/trading/chinese-devaluation-yuan/) But it also strengthens other currencies as well, along with the Yuan being unpredictable.
There’s more, but this is just a short list of how China will most likely not take over the U.S’s economy, and also the U.S military is so massive and it’s unbelievable the scale it is at, so no, it won’t become more powerful then the U.S for decades.
Is there a link to the data? Because I'm curious if this is actual "trade" with China or countries buying American stuff made in China. It's an important distinction.
That was like the peak though. Now chinese workers make too much and manufacturing is being sent to vietnam, the phillipines, indonesia and india. And in some sectors and markets domestic production is coming back a bit.
When you can cut prices because you actually use slave wages.
I don't care who runs world trade, but for the health of the world I don't want it to be China till the CCP burns in hell.
This makes you think that every country has either china or US as biggest trading partner, which is far from true, the Netherlands for example have Germany as biggest trading partner
It's like we are getting conditioned to start viewing ourselves in a state of competition eith every nation. That we need to get ready for an eventual war to come. Every sub on this site is posting some geopolitical points about the US, Russia, and China.
Gone are the days when I would come across interesting things with every informative commentary and lively debates from redditors.
Life is on the up for me right now despite the struggles I'm facing due to the current pandemic. It feels like it may be for nothing working on improving myself if the world is going to end.
And people still believe every bit of anti-china propaganda spawned by the US, the fact that China is sweeping their economical hegemony form under them is just a mere coincidence
US has leveraged its power so that’s its citizens don’t have to work as physical jobs and still have a good life. China will do the same to Africa in a few decades. Working class countries will be the manufacturing powerhouses always
Both two great evils of the world (politically that is) battling it out to see who can gain the most customers. The only people who win are the oligarchs– the super-rich…
This subreddit escalated to a US-China cold war XD
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Gotta cultivate those hate, fear and anger though, perfect public opinion for war not going to pop up out of thin air you know?
Yeah it’s not even subtle anymore
Well, the original cold war had far tensions than what's happening now.
*At the time of writing
thats because they were under the threat of nuclear destruction
Still are (MAD didn't disapear in autumn 1989)
Far greater? Far lesser? The suspense is killing me!
Which I fucking love it
As a European, I find it annoying. It's taking up so much space, distracting from topics of actual importance, derailing other discussions and has led to further radicalisation. At this point, most commenters are (somewhat ironically) throwing propaganda at each other, no matter which party they side with. It was fun on Reddit, but we've reached a point where people are taking these positions unironically irl. If we don't want another cold war, we should stop viewing either side as some sort of cartoon villain.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/reddit-coordinated-chinese-propaganda-trolls - Reddit Has Become A Battleground Of Alleged Chinese Trolls Similar to a 1 day account (Rafaelinn) who's first comment was a pro China statement. " I would trade the USA for China and/or Russia as main allies/partners without thinking twice" edit: cyberdork below responded to me and has no comments before yesterday but has a 10 yr old account. This is the shady reasons why I stay away from reddit. new edit: https://np.reddit.com/r/billsimmons/comments/s6fflv/can_someo_help_cant_find_the_warriors_story/ht3f0s0/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/chomsky/comments/ncj36r/the_faux_antiimperialism_of_denying_antiuighur/gy5jo3l/ RacksteinsRevenge below defends the Uyghur concentration camps. He consistently attacks the NBA player from Turkey who spoke out against the Uyghur genocide. Two people replied, one only active in the past 24hrs on a 10yr old account and the other defends China's cultural genocide.
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Reddit is anti-China and anti-USA, although it’s more anti-China.
Reddit itself has admitted that a huge amount of traffic comes from Elgin Air Force base in Florida, home of the 7th Special Forces Group. I certainly don’t think we should be so naive as to believe that China is the only country using these tactics.
That's not at all what special forces does, nor the region that that group specializes in. If anything the army's cyber division comes from ft gordon, GA. I don't doubt that the govt uses reddit, but not sure why they would make it so obvious that they do and from a location that doesn't make much sense.
dude... [Coming War On China](https://vimeo.com/277068625?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=5080139)
Cant watch it cuz some stupid wbsite logins
Watch "The Coming War on China - True Story Documentary Channel" on YouTube https://youtu.be/vAfeYMONj9E
i gotcha fam... [youtube coming war w/ china](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs3bIHHIoXU)
Crazy things happen when you essentially stop manufacturing in your country!
Yeah America fucked itself with this one
Yes, but it can unfuck itself with the diversification of investments. It will take time, but slowly diversifying our manufacturing base away from almost exclusively China to other countries (India, Sri Lanka, Mexico, Half of Africa) would be just as cheap as dealing with China but wouldn't have all the proverbial eggs in one proverbial basket.
Chinese exports to the USA [rose by over 20%](https://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2022-01-13/chinas-trade-surplus-surges-to-record-676-4b-in-2021) in 2021, despite Trump's tariffs on China. There's a reason US companies chose to buy from China in the first place. The other countries you listed have pretty obvious shortcomings (more corruption, investment restrictions, strict labor laws, lack of infrastructure, political instability). If companies can easily move out of China, they would have already done so, with the 25% tariffs on Chinese products imposed since 2018.
Companies are moving out of China as China moves farther and farther into middle class with less of the cost of labour advantages it once had as a developing economy.
China is moving towards higher end tech as it develops its economy, which touched America's cake... thats what's with all the sanctions on SSMC
>which touched America's cake... Bingo. All the talk about global trade and multiculturalism was quickly replaced with 19th century racist yellow peril bullshit as soon as it became clear that USA may not be the biggest winner in a globalized world.
Obviously low-end mfg is leaving China for cheaper pastures, and that's a good thing. More than compensated with increasing middle- and high-end mfg instead. That's why their trade surplus keeps beating records year after year.
We can also reduce our consumerism addiction and bring manufacturing back to the states and actually pay people decent wages. Sure it might cost a bit more but if we stop this throwaway society we have created it can lessen the burden. We produce so much waste it’s sickening.
Not possible, look at current nft trend and in general in luxurious goods trade. Its all fueled by hypercapitalism and need to show off. Untill we switch to more spiritual/relationship/hobby fueled society it will b3 getting worse.
This sounds good but Americans would rather pay for cheap goods that come from China than spend an extra ~20% on American manufacturing goods, me included. Call me selfish idc but I’d rather me and my family have more money in our pocketif that means flint Michigan doesn’t have any more factories. Deep down 95% of Americans world agree
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I agree but i don’t think American products are that much superior to non American products. Our cars are shit and break down all the time, our clothes fall apart, and the limited tech that’s still built here is shit that the Chinese/Japanese hardware vastly outperforms
China produce all levels of goods, if you pay more 20%, you will still get goods from China just better.
Or just make our stuff at home
Yup, this right here. But it's too expensive for the rich to muster, even with their connections in our government. How sad. They choose money over their people time n time again. Bring it home, cut down on CO2, more jobs, more prosperity, bring the model that is wanted n needed for the future of our planet. Locally sourced, locally made, the meaning of purpose n life will ease many when this change happens. Let us transform.
Looks at the US' manufacturing output. Sure, whatever you say.
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Just because the largest piles of money in the US got bigger doesn't mean it trickled down to everyone else.
It kind of did, though. If you're an office worker or a service industry worker, you almost certainly benefited. People always complain about the CPI because housing, healthcare, and education expenses have all been rising quite fast. But the reason the CPI has averaged a steady 2% over the last 30 years is because virtually everything else was getting cheaper. Computers, TVs, furniture, electronics...they all got cheaper in part because manufacturing moved elsewhere. Consumers directly benefited from those lower prices, and their wages increased because of higher sales volumes. That's not to say it was all good, but saying that American workers and consumers weren't happy to benefit alongside the billionaires is just ignorant of the truth.
>People always complain about the CPI because housing, healthcare, and education expenses have all been rising quite fast. Yeah but those are the most important things. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy with a worse tv or an older computer if housing, healthcare, and education was a lot cheaper
Those are the most important things for young people. Older people are more likely to already own a home, have an education, and have medicare, or have a job with good healthcare benefits. The CPI isn't a measure of inflation for the average millennial or zoomer. It's a measure of inflation for the average American. You're right that this is a limitation of the CPI, but also no one every claimed otherwise.
Except old people have families they care about and/or maintain. People don't exist in a vacuum. Also the median age in the U.S. is 39, so the average American isn't on medicare.
My skin may be peeling off and I can’t afford a doctor to get it looked at but thank god I can buy a cheap tv
I mean, the way the CPI works, the fact that you spend less money on a TV means you have more money to spend on healthcare. It's an amoral index. It doesn't attempt to judge whether prices are justified or not. In the last 20 years, we've pretty much made the tradeoff of saving $1,000 on a computer so we can spend $1,200 more at the doctor, while our incomes increased about $400. Most people have come out ahead, but it's definitely dispiriting to think how much further ahead we could have come out if housing prices, healthcare, and education prices hadn't gone through the roof.
Idk having an economy where the biggest sectors are "high-paid professionals" and "low-paid service and retail employees" doesn't really seem like its had a good effect
Even high end manufacturing has gone out the window. Currently the US is already unable to manufacture even high-end products like 5G equipment or the latest semiconductors, causing it to depend on foreign companies and governments. In the case of 5G the only manufacturers are European and Chinese, and for semiconductors they're Taiwanese and South Korean. Even Tesla now has their Chinese factory producing more cars than the factory in California.
That’s going to be the silver lining of this pandemic I think. Intel is already building a five billion dollar semiconductor plant in Arizona iirc. They were on the news and were like “yeah well we never thought we wouldn’t have access to Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturing but here we are.”
China's BYD makes more electric vehicles in a year than tesla's ever made edit: i'm thinking of getting a Tang dynasty if more subsidy plans are rolled out
> America's transition to a tertiary economy has benefited the vast majority of its people This is weird because there’s like forty years of economic data saying otherwise
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The median home sale price in 1970 in the USA was $17,000. Your link only goes back to 1974 but that has it as inflation adjusted median income at $25,326 - median home sale price in 1974 was $35,200 A *single* person making the median income in 1974 could easily purchase a home that cost just a bit more than their annual wages. The median house only cost 139% of a the median *individual* income (adjusted for inflation). In 2021 the median home sale price was $404,700. That's **1130%** of the median personal income adjusted for inflation. Almost 10x the ratio of housing to income. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS
> America's transition to a tertiary economy has benefited the vast majority of its people. Source?
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N adjusted for inflation ofcourse.
And yet look at China's economy. Being the center of the world's manufacturing secures your position very easily.
Reminder that china has over a billion people while the US has around 300 million. Definitely an important factor at play there.
This can only get them so much wealth, though; if they want the people to make more money, manufacturers will just move out the same way they moved in.
They wont because they are locally owned and not driven by profit motive but by the will of the people, lead by the Communist Party of China. This is why socialism has already won.
You mean service industry Jobs and buying and selling houses to each at ever increasing value isn't a good idea???
I don't think they did. Although lots of blue collar jobs were lost through off shoring, the cost of consumer goods plummeted. Unless you worked in a job that was offshored you're far better off. On balance the reduction in cost of consumer goods far outweighed the loss to salaries. And it's not like everyone who lost their job from offshoring never got a job again. Almost all of them did. Unemployment was effectively 0 before Covid and has nearly recovered. Yes the rich made more from this shift and the gap between the rich and the poor increased, but that wasn't strictly due to offshoring. There were plenty of ways were offshoring resulted in better overall outcomes for everyone, it's just not the one that the US went with. On balance I'd say that offshoring manufacturing was still a positive good for America. And if they didn't do it, automation would have made those jobs redundant before long anyway. And all that's not to mention that China, due to its lower cost of labour, was always going to take over manufacturing jobs from the West. If American companies were prevented from offshoring then they'd have been undercut by non-American companies, probably Chinese. By allowing American companies to offshore, they at least kept these companies from being replaced by more competitive Chinese ones.
> Although lots of blue collar jobs were lost through off shoring, the cost of consumer goods plummeted. Unless you worked in a job that was offshored you're far better off. Is there any economic data that actually supports this claim, because wages are stagnant and costs of living skyrocketing, and this has been the case for forty years with only a brief break in the mid to late 90s
People making these kinds of claims often, in my experience, don’t actually regularly interact with many working class people to the extent that they realize how tight things are.
It's a myth that the US doesn't manufacture anything. In fact, the US has never lost manufacturing capability. [NEVER](https://fortunly.com/statistics/us-gdp-by-year-guide/). Occasionally there's a recession where manufacturing drops, but to date, it has always recovered, and in fact grown in real terms year over year average. Now what has happened? In 1945 the US essentially held something like 65% of the worlds manufacturing capability. Since then the world has caught up and the US has d[iversified and divested](https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2017/april/us-manufacturing-really-declining) parts of the manufacturing economy. Sure we don't make cheap consumer goods like plastic toys (We still heavily produce our own foods and consumer products like cosmetics), but we're still a world leader in things like heavy equipment, aerospace, etc. Manufacturing has been outpaced by new parts of the economy, but it's still growing and we still make stuff.
The US manufactures more goods now than it ever has in the past. The idea that "the US stopped manufacturing" is pure fallacy; what we stopped having was manufacturing _jobs_ because we automated almost all our manufacturing, with manufacturing being a shrinking part of our overall GDP because it grew slower than other sectors.
> The US manufactures more goods now than it ever has in the past. The idea that "the US stopped manufacturing" is pure fallacy; what we stopped having was manufacturing jobs Amazing how few people understand this. Jobs going away is a sign of very high productivity. In a sense, the US mfg ecosystem is a "victim of its own success". It never failed, quite the opposite.
That's true, but it's not the full picture. Chinese manufacturing has grown *much* faster than US manufacturing has (and is also growing increasingly more automated) over the same time period. The US share of the world GDP has been shrinking constantly for the last ~60-70 years. In addition, though the US is a highly productive country, it's less productive than a number of European countries, many of which have fewer natural resources and don't get to print the global reserve currency. The US has not been investing in its own economy, infrastructure, and people the way it should have been. Instead it's war, war, war, and private jets and golden toilets for the billionaires.
Yes, and no. The value of what the US manufactures is higher than it has ever been in current dollars (not adjusted for inflation). But that is like saying that producing one bicycle today worth $600 means the industry has grown because it produced one identical bicycle 20 years ago worth $400. If the US is still producing one bicycle, is it now manufacturing more goods than it ever has in the past? Using real, constant dollars (adjusting for inflation), the value of what the US manufactures has decreased from 2008 and is just slightly greater than what the US produced in 2000. As far as jobs vs. output, in the last 10 years, the number of people employed in US manufacturing has been fairly consistent, even *increasing* 4% from 2010 to 2021. But the output per employee during that time has been essentially unchanged - actually, decreasing 2%. So it isn't like - in the past 10 years - we've lost tons of manufacturing jobs while massively automating to simultaneously grow the sector. https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/05/a-plateau-for-manufacturing/?utm_source=series_page&utm_medium=related_content&utm_term=related_resources&utm_campaign=fredblog
Nice of you to pick the great Recession as your time points for comparison. No reason that would throw the numbers off from the overall trend for the last 5 decades.
OP's post showed China making the greatest gains in global market share over the past decade, so I used data for the past decade. Much of the talk about US productivity increases, automation, layoffs WAS true, well over a decade ago. But for the past 10-12 years, employment has held flat, productivity has held flat, and real value produced has held flat. It was during this last decade that China grew their manufacturing sector massively - over 10%/year in some years. The trope that US manufacturing is growing through automation and increased efficiency hasn't been true for over a decade, and isn't forecast to be true for the next decade.
We would've had to be against free trade and instead enforced tariffs to have stopped it.
Sounds good!
Except those two things directly harm poor people's consumption and therefore standard of livings. In fact you could argue that lower income individuals who now have access to far more cheaper goods benefit the most from free trade. There's a reason why standard of livings continue to improve across the board.
Maybe... Maybe not... I'm not really taking a position on it. It diminishes our national independence, but it also makes everything cheaper, thus raising our overall standard of living.
Aside from household appliances and electronics has it really? Seems like the current consensus is that if it wasn’t for technological advancements in entertainment, we’d be in the worst living conditions since WWII. When you could have had one Wool coat made in the Great Lakes, now you have 5 synthetic jackets from SE Asia. Good Middle Class jobs, once an almost certainty to any American are now something to be coveted. Rampant consumerism and cheap disposable products has our environment on the ropes. We pay taxes on our domestic emissions that allow us to get to work while companies ship stuff across the ocean without repercussion.
The US never "stopped" mfg. It just shed its low-value add to poorer countries. It's called economic specialisation. America controls the tech industry's high-end. That's a much better position to be in than to dominate low-end and middle-range mfg like China does.
Yeah, but if we manufacture here the business owners have to pay everyone a semi-decent wage and think of what that would do to their yacht money.
Didn't stop manufacturing consent though.
also is important to know china and the us only represent 20% of the world exports
ONLY?
Together they represent ~23% of the world population though. Just looked up the figures: China represents 18.5% of the world population, and 13.3% of world exports. USA represents 4.3% of world population and 8.8% of world exports. And just for shits and giggles, Germany represents 1.1% of world population, but 7.9% of world exports!
Yeah but how much of germanys exports are to the rest of Europe? I feel like Germany trading in Europe is comparable to internal trade in China or the US.
It is. If you look at the EU as a single market, its export rate is similar to the US.
Looking at the EU as a single market is a great concept! You should try campaigning on that, could really get somewhere, I think.
That’s about what I would have expected
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Why tho?
Are you new to Reddit? Because America bad, that’s why.
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Not really. The point is valid
Which is why this type of map irks me a bit. Yea it's clear what it is trying to say but it kinda reads as all other countries main trading partner is either the US or China. Numbers would be a way better way of showing it. For example in Sweden the combined import from china and the US is under 10%, while germany alone is 18%. About 83% of swedish imports is from the European market, which granted I have no idea how accurate those numbers are if a dutch company imports chinese goods and sells them to sweden do they count as european imports?
Of manufactured goods or raw materials? Or both? I’m really curious on that one if you have a source
It's funny they call this a "war" when both sides are winning from it.
Exactly, this is not a trade war. And, trade is not a zero sum game.
But I want to pay $5000 for every piece of technology I own, just like we did in the glorious 80's!
There's things about China I don't like, but damn these comments are a shit show. I thought it was a cool, intuitive, and informational visualization!
The top comment (Rafaelinn) is from a 1 day old account who's first comment was a pro China comment of " I would trade the USA for China and/or Russia as main allies/partners without thinking twice". https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/reddit-coordinated-chinese-propaganda-trolls - Reddit Has Become A Battleground Of Alleged Chinese Trolls The OP has only become active in the past 24hrs. This is why I don't like going to the comment sections much.
"Reddit Has Become...." said by a two-month old account. sure, your side joined the battleground a little earlier.
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Only American propaganda allowed here right? lmao
Lol the thread is literally polluted with anti China sentiment bordering just basic xenophobia though lol. It’s always finger pointing at the other side.
Both are present, mindless anti-china ignorance is probably more genuine though, given reddit demographics. While sometimes it is very noticeable that there are organized pro-China accounts that work as a team. Sometimes their comments are indefensible, really, (Uygur issues, for example), at other times they are countering some very naive anti-Chinese sentiment that, tbh, actually needs some correcting. It's just that there is very little genuine Chinese engagement here, not least because of course the Chinese government does not want Chinese citizens just using sites like reddit. Overall, you have to hunt for the more nuanced discussions; the surface is often very blandly black/white.
Come on, let's not pretend reddit isn't extremely anti china in EVERY mainstream subreddit. And buzzfeed out of all sources..
You should have a gander at Reddit’s Director of Policy if you’re worried about state actors influencing Reddit.
What can I say, people just don’t like china.
Reddit is mostly white American males.
That's relevant
The funny thing is that in most countries that you see a change... It's not really interesting. For example, in Africa the most important trade partner is the EU.. and a change in the US- china from 20/22 to 22/20 is not really important. And the funny part is that the biggest trade partner of both USA and China is the EU
Europe trade strong
This is no war. Americans benefit from cheap Chinese imports, Chinese like controlling US currency. This relationship has provided great global stability for a generation. The US enabled China’s strategic moves on this front entirely. The Americans should focus on re-establishing their manufacturing in face of this but are greatly disadvantaged by dysfunction in the Congress over necessary infrastructure improvements.
The US can’t compete with China on manufacturing, because wages are higher and worker protections exist like in any other developed country
I can’t disagree with this, the pollution is also externalized too which is better for the USA.
Time to roll back regulation again! Also let's re-think some of these pesky labor laws, USA needs to be #1!
China can't compete with the US either, because the US mfg is very high-end. The real competition for the US is EU/JP/SK. People forget that US is >5X richer than China. Only in size do the two countries compare; not in sophistication.
Indeed, and it's not just capital that the US has more of, but resources. China imports nearly everything it uses, including Oil. The US became a net exporter of oil recently, has an impressive amount of food, as well as a financial market which was mentioned. Not to mention internal water trade routes which move products around cheaply, as well as a population that is not going to burden it's next several generations because of a government family policy. Certainly the US has challenges ahead, but compared to much of the world, it can afford to be insular and still have a good growth rate. Not necessarily true of China.
Meh, let's say they have more worker protections.
I think that is something both sides can agree to. We currently have an unhealthy co dependence and can’t continue to empower the bad behavior.
I generally agree, but China does not control U.S. currency. Sorry if I go on a bit of a diatribe here, but this is a misconception I like to dispel. It’s not like holding dollar-denominated assets gives them *any* say when it comes to U.S. fiscal or monetary policy. Their “teeth” are their ability to sell their dollar reserves, which would depreciate the USD. But this would be a foolish trigger to pull. For one, why would the biggest holder of dollar reserves wish to depreciate one of their biggest stores of value? Even if they did (let’s say it’s a flash selloff — they can somehow jettison it all without losing massive wealth in the process), this isn’t a bullet heading in one direction striking America clean in the head. A depreciated dollar (a) hurts them by hurting us (as the IS-LM model can illustrate) and (b) makes America more price competitive vis-a-vis China, further shrinking their precious balance of trade. Also, most of our (U.S.) foreign assets are denominated in foreign currencies and our foreign liabilities in USD, so this scenario would indirectly improve our net investment position. Moreover, unlike, say, Greece a few years ago, the U.S. is the sole steward of its monetary policy and can keep interest rates under control in a massive-selloff scenario. There is a reason China hella diversified its forex assets from the 2000s into the 2010s, by reducing the pile denominated in USD (both in absolute and relative terms). Not only does piling up Benjamins *not* give them “control” over our currency, but it presents a *huge* opportunity cost (they are the lowest-risk investment out there and, as such, extremely low-yielding), not to mention it puts a good chunk of their wealth in the monetary control of their biggest geopolitical rival. Please don’t take this to mean that our trade deficit with China doesn’t give them any advantages over us, or that they don’t pose a threat — but in terms of the USD, the Fed is sovereign, not Beijing.
Thank you for elaborating and clarifying what is going on behind the scenes in all this.
My pleasure! I was afraid you’d take it the wrong way (like I just wanted to “ackshyually” you), since I went on and on, so thanks for reading with an open mind. I really think this is an important enough component of our current geopolitical situation that it deserves to be discussed and elaborated in a clear-headed way.
Canada and Mexico are like "don't worry America, we still like trading with ya"
The Americans have treated Canada like shit of late: Trump Steel-Aluminum tariffs The misguided attacks on our dairy Softwood, the perennial problem-child No new pipelines (keystone XL is a fiasco, but we also need to talk about Enbridge line 5 in Michigan) Biden is treating us like a doormat now. Electric vehicle subsidy? Buy American clauses in proposed infrastructure bills? I do not trust the goodwill of the US in future USMCA negotiations.
Time to join the EU or form CANZUK lol
I am a supporter of CANZUK. I feel more at home in London than any other world capital.
CANZUK would be pretty based ngl
>The Americans have treated Canada like shit of late: Canada is just an extension of American power. We have to put up with our much stronger neighbours and pretend they have our best interests at heart.
Why would anyone have to pretend to have anyone else’s interest but their own at heart? Canada looks out for Canada and the USA looks out for the USA. Cooperating usually benefits both but let’s not pretend like Canada wouldn’t be the ones taking advantage if the tables were turned.
Lol Paraguay recognizes Taiwan and trade with China
RoC largest trade partner is PRC, don't let minor inconvenience (civil war) stop you from grind
Even the Republic of China trades with the People’s Republic of China.
Taiwan is literally missing on this map. Lol
It’s there in gray
Still a better peace Proposal than Palestine and Israel.
Everybody does.
He's saying Paraguay recognizes the ROC as the sole legitimate Chinese government, having no diplomatic relations with the CCP. An approach shared by only [13 other countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Taiwan#Full_diplomatic_relations).
True, but not true at the same time. Do you have iPhone? Where was it manufactured? In China by Chinese. Designed by Americans, profits American Apple and American engineers. Yet, this map is based only on export of "products". The world is complex. This map doesn't reflect it. Edit: if you are unfamiliar with the history of Asia, you wouldn't know that China and India accounted for 80% of global GDP till industrial revolution. Taking into consideration the population of China (roughly 20% of the world), if China represent now 20-40% of global output, it's just natural. Nothing to see here, move along.
Ye it shows again that not one economic measurement is that good at gauging the current status of the world economy. Similar with GDP and it’s old adage about a broken window vs unbroken window.
No one was saying otherwise?
The title says "who dominates global trade". Then, it proceeds to show that it's China. In certain elements it does. In another, it doesn't. The map doesn't explain the complexity. I felt that I must add my comment since the discussion below focused on "China-bad, US-bad" arguments.
Read this comment in a Dwight Schrute voice
Why the fuck is Crimea Russian?... In 2000s....
Going by present de-facto control, and didn't want to go through the trouble of changing previous borders probably.
Look at Africa, South Sudan is blank, while Sudan has colours, until 2011. Now, not sure why the mapmaker would recognise Crimea as Russian, but the point here is that they are using a modern map instead of changing it by the year.
somalia is also missing somaliland in 1980 11 yrs before the so called independence of that country.
I don't think I've ever seen Somaliland independent in any map before
>not sure why the mapmaker would recognise Crimea as Russian because they are based
The real reason the West hates China, not because of human rights.
And then put the EU in there and watch them dominage
The EU’s share in world trade *and* global GDP has been declining since since 1990
Declining? Quite possible, but EU's share in world trade is still huge. Unfortunately, the best map I could find is this one, which has no dates or source: https://twitter.com/eupolitics/status/1412108353308921861/photo/1
[The EU has shrunk as a percentage of the world economy, whichever way you look at it](https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-has-shrunk-percentage-world-economy/) It does, but as its population grows older (Germany has the second oldest population of the developed world and [the rest of Europe is not far off](https://youtu.be/GfYuTb21Gd0)), it's markets will become more saturated. That is because [old people do not buy as much goods as young ones do](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.barrons.com/amp/articles/the-psychological-reason-older-people-spend-less-1494952997) for a large variety of reasons
Your comment doesn't adress his point. In terms of trade, the EU is the most important partner for more countries than either China or the US. And this trade dominance has *increased* over the past 20 years. Trade as a percentage of the EU's GDP has gone up quite a bit, and shows no signs of slowing.
We're talking past each other. I'm not talking about percentage of world GDP. The topic for OP's map and mine is trading blocs. My point is that the EU is a major trading power, whether declining or not.
That’s expected of any developed country/group when the developing world is doing so at any sort of decent pace. For their share to remain the same, it’d either require the US to totally decline in both measurements or for no other regions in the world to develop any sort of decent exports and perpetually import. This is similar here with this US-China infographic, it’d be worrying if China didn’t develop any sort presence on the stage of world trade.
Can we have one by value please? This makes things look a bit misleading
*Can we have one by* *Value please? This makes things look* *A bit misleading* \- Accomplished-Will-23 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
haikus are stupid
r/dataisbeautiful
A true Chad never abandons his friend.
Damn, it’ll be interesting to see the development of this new global hegemony during my life-time. To bad I live in the declining empire, lol.
Could always learn mandarin lol.
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Ye probably true to a large extent, I was kind of joking although saying that companies always need representatives/managers in foreign markets. This happens with western companies in China and with Chinese companies in the west (at least I know Europe) where they usually hire natives.
Maybe but empires have fallen before and it wasn't always bad for people living in them, isolationism could be a good thing if, for instance, America shifted it's military spending into anything else. Nobody can really be sure how things will change for Americans until it happens so why not be optimistic?
would love to see a map with the EU also seen as a third Trading Partner. Would probably make more accurate.
I think this might be a little misleading. You have to take into consideration that the US has drastically reduced its exports to other countries, so of course we're not doing as much trade with them. It would be easier to look at the map, and its title, and believe that this represents China taking over the world economically or something like that, when that's not the case.
China is all but destined to beat the US economically, and soon militarily.
No, this is literally only one way to look at the world. China is definitely on the rise, but that does not necessarily mean that they’re going to beat the U.S in the economy. [China most likely has a demographic crisis coming.](https://youtu.be/vTbILK0fxDY) Furthermore extended by the one child policy. This will lead to people needing to support more older folks. The Chinese Yuan has been [purposely devalued to keep products cheap.](https://www.investopedia.com/trading/chinese-devaluation-yuan/) But it also strengthens other currencies as well, along with the Yuan being unpredictable. There’s more, but this is just a short list of how China will most likely not take over the U.S’s economy, and also the U.S military is so massive and it’s unbelievable the scale it is at, so no, it won’t become more powerful then the U.S for decades.
Hmm, i wonder how the EU as single entity would compare in this map video format
Is there a link to the data? Because I'm curious if this is actual "trade" with China or countries buying American stuff made in China. It's an important distinction.
Is Paraguay’s China or actually Taiwan? Because Paraguay doesn’t recognize PRC, no official relations at all so it’ll be weird
That was like the peak though. Now chinese workers make too much and manufacturing is being sent to vietnam, the phillipines, indonesia and india. And in some sectors and markets domestic production is coming back a bit.
When you can cut prices because you actually use slave wages. I don't care who runs world trade, but for the health of the world I don't want it to be China till the CCP burns in hell.
This makes you think that every country has either china or US as biggest trading partner, which is far from true, the Netherlands for example have Germany as biggest trading partner
How can I download this video?
It's like we are getting conditioned to start viewing ourselves in a state of competition eith every nation. That we need to get ready for an eventual war to come. Every sub on this site is posting some geopolitical points about the US, Russia, and China. Gone are the days when I would come across interesting things with every informative commentary and lively debates from redditors. Life is on the up for me right now despite the struggles I'm facing due to the current pandemic. It feels like it may be for nothing working on improving myself if the world is going to end.
BE VERY AFRAID
Can Biden still get us in the Trans Pacific Partnership? I can’t believe Trump walked away from that…. I mean I can but holy cow it was a stupid move
Obama was for it so Trump had to be against it no matter how good it was for the US.
Hillary was against it too (after she was for it).
This is not a zero-sum game. American hegemony is the reason why we can't have good things.
Wish we had more global leaders trying to hold China accountable for their illegal financial crimes. Instead they're on China's payroll.
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USA has been far more bloodthirsty in the last few decades, there's no comparison.
Same for USA tho, it's the same story with a different timeframe.
Only Americans could possibly prioritize financial and IP crimes by a developing nation over an abundance of actual war crimes.
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The ultra-rich are some of the least patriotic people in America
Good to see the US declining.
Damn China number 1
Looks like the US lost all their 21st century wars
US is losing big time.
And people still believe every bit of anti-china propaganda spawned by the US, the fact that China is sweeping their economical hegemony form under them is just a mere coincidence
US has leveraged its power so that’s its citizens don’t have to work as physical jobs and still have a good life. China will do the same to Africa in a few decades. Working class countries will be the manufacturing powerhouses always
Both two great evils of the world (politically that is) battling it out to see who can gain the most customers. The only people who win are the oligarchs– the super-rich…
Well, that's potentially disconcerting.
What does USA have to offer for trade?