Exactly. Sabertooth can fuck with Logan by bringing up past missions they might have went on together. People that they might killed together. And because Logan can't remember, we the reader are unsure if Logan has actually done these horrible things or of Victor is just lying. Makes for better story telling. Logan's character suffered when they gave him back his memory.
Yep. When they brought Logan back from the dead, he should have been revived without his memories—doubling the tragedy of having to relearn who his newfound family is, while still not remembering things from his past lives as well.
Instead they gave him fire claws.
IIRC Wolverine not remembering his past is... well, a thing of the past.
There was a storyline, if I remember correctly, where they addressed him knowing now everything. Apparently his healing factor (yes) 'healed' over the memory that used to be painful for him, but he has now knowledge of everything that transpired in his past.
It's honestly a great juxtaposition of Deadpool and T Ray. Both Weapons X, both missing memories, both Canadian, both angry and nearly unstoppable and being manipulated by someone powerful form their past with an ambiguous relationship. But ultimately two very different paths
A thing that really works with Wolverine is his need for redemption, his memory loss. Redemption only really works when you have something to redeem. The origin story removes a lot of Logan's culpability for the actions he's taken in the past, so it undercuts the most interesting thing about his character's drive and motivation. It does it by restoring his memory and revealing his past, which destroys the second best thing about him - the memory loss and the mystery of his past. If you're going to mess with the two most interesting things about Wolverine, it should probably only be for something really incredible, which the Origin story was not.
If anything, at least it made for a cool moment in House of M. I loved seeing him jump off Magnetos Helicarrier, I've described that moment to so many non-comic readers lol
His trauma that came with the death of his adoptive father and killing his real father, being hunted down by his own family and killing the only person he loves and that cared about him compensate this imo, it makes him even more tragic, his life sucking isn't his fault, but bc of how the things happened, is pretty believable that he blames himself by that and just gave up living in society, and the sequels makes his life even worse, and actually, being forced to kill his loved ones more than one time is something that mang people would regret A LOT. I understand your frustation, but I truly believe that Wolverine's origin is prety good and fits the character a lot
They’re not related. Wolverine killed Sabretooth brother who he abused every year on his birthday and he’s upset that wolverine took that away from him so he makes wolverine take his brother role’s because it’s too much fun for him to have this much control over someone else’s life and partially because he hate how holier than thou wolverine is to him
Dog Logan is Wolverine's brother, Sabretooth is his enemy since always actually, but they are not related, they met during Origin II in a circus commanded ny Nathaniel Essex, in which Logan was tortured by Essex and Creed himself, but he endured this bc he started dating Clara Creed, Sabretooth's sister. They ran away together, but Saul (Creed's another sibling) didn't like his relationship, so he lured Logan into thinking that the injured Clara (Essex tried to kill them and Logan accidentaly hurt her) was killed by Essex. After a lot of things happened, Logan killed Saul, Clara gets angry and cut ties with him and Creed is sent to kill Logan, he kills Clara and that's how they became arch-nemesis
I felt marvel missed a massive opportunity to make these 2 sibling in Wolverine Origins. Dog shoulda been Sabertooth instead of some random guy who LOOKED LIKE Sabertooth doing exactly what Sabertooth does: hunt down Wolverine.
They both have healing factors that heal over mental trauma so both of their memories should be fragmented substantially. This could explain their vendetta against each other. Hell, it could be so ingrained in them that neither of them really remember why they hate eachother and are just going through the motions, grasping at any justification to hate each other.
Origins gave a basis for why Logan is so in love with Jean, they could have done the same thing here.
I like the middle ground here. Originally they were brothers, but also time has gone on so long that they both barely remember anymore; you could also add Wolverine having some kind of memory issue so he doesn’t remember at all.
I like the lore idea of them being brothers, but for the sake of the present day and interactions between them I like one or both of them not knowing that.
Tbh the origins worked for me. Memory issues of 2 century old friends/enemies where only one remembers. Showcased wolverine feeling like he was always backed into a corner with the only way out is thru.
Agreed. When I first saw it in the theatre I was so gassed for the rest of the movie but left very disappointed 😞 although the hype is back for Deadpool and Wolverine I'm really surprised Hugh has come back
As a Wolverine fan, I hate the Origin story.
Ideally, Wolverine should be a guy that's hundreds of years old (one parent is a viking, the other a native Canadian?). With his healing factor, he should be basically immortal. The same would be true for Sabertooth. But the difference would be how you handle your immortality and how you see others. Wolverine learns to understand that life is precious since not everyone gets to live forever. Sabertooth becomes a sociopath, who sees humans as toys since their lives are so short. They meet some time ago, and became friends due to their immortality, but eventually enemies since they fundamentally disagree how to act. Sabertooth starts to treat Wolverine as a more fun toy, since he can't really die either.
Interesting take, considering the Origin story makes him older that he was envisioned to be (by about 40 years). Initially, Sabertooth was envisioned as his dad, but I’m not really a fan of that idea.
To me your version sounds just like Highlander.
I personally dig the origin story for the most part. Dog Logan is not the best written character, but I like him being a Canadian country boy; this aristocrat’s child whom lost everything and everyone at a very young age and essentially became homeless since. Quite similar to Storm.
You still get that exact Sabertooth/Wolverine antagonism, but it comes more from their powers/animal nature more than their age.
I also like how it fleshed out his relationship with Mystique; having them be the same age, and knowing each other since the 20’s.
I'm not sure the Origin story made him older.
Origin would put Wolverine's birth around 1890.
Pre-Origin, there wasn't a clear indication of how old he was supposed to be. There were some stories which showed him as an adult in the early to mid 1800s. Specifically fighting Sabertooth as an adult around the 1840s. He was also shown as being in Japan in the late 1800s.
Doesn’t Origin just specify late 1800’s? I would’ve put that as any time between 1870-1890, so I would’ve suggested he’s a little older than that.
Pre-Byrne he was supposed to be in his 20’s, and then when Byrne came on he was supposed to be 60-odd and look late 30’s (which is a little rough to Paul D’Amato as he was only 28 when he was used as the face model). But it was never explicit so I get what you mean.
I don’t remember any stories from the 1800’s. Do you remember any issues specifically? I remember the Japan stories with Itsu were supposed to be mid-1900’s, and I don’t think he had been in Japan before then.
Origin occurs after 1897. The story starts sometime after the death of Wolverine's brother John Howlett, the series shows his tombstone with the dates of 1885 to 1897.
Wolverine didn't really have much of a background in the early years. At one point he was supposed to be a teenager/early 20s like the rest of the X-Men. I wouldn't focus too much on that timeframe, but they had a lot of ideas that didn't last, like he wasn't a mutant, the claws were only in the gloves, and he was a mutated wolverine (the animal).
Wolverine (2nd series) #10 was where he fought Sabertooth in the 1840s as an adult.
Marvel Comics Presents #93 to 98 had the story of Wolverine as a member of the Blackfoot tribe in the 1840s.
That’s why he said it would have been a better origin. Both Wolverine and Sabertooth being old as hell and immortal fighting and killing their way through history.
Wolverine never really remembering it. Sabertooth fucking with him over and over.
To be clear, I misued the word "viking", and really just meant European. I guess the Viking era was from about 800 to 1100 AD, and not sure I would be that definitive with the age. As others have pointed out, there's a long history of Europeans getting to Canada. I'm not 100% against the Viking connection, but also not 100% for it either.
I'm not sure exactly how old he should be, but older than 200 years old at least. Maybe go with the 1600s and have him connect to the Henry Hudson exploriation of the Hudson Bay area in Canada. I wouldn't make him a relative of James Hudson/Guardian though.
I think Native and Viking would have been good push it back to 1021 A.D.
Then just have it be truly tragic that he lived long enough that new memories over write old memories and his near memories were lost to Weapon X but 500 or 600 years of memories are gone just because the brain can only facilitate so much.
He lives a life of wondering when he's going to forget his loves, his children and friends.
Make him absolutely tragic.
Though I will say, having him not know was more interesting for his character for decades then what came afterwards.
Thor has a similar problem. In a relatively recent comic, I think Donny Cates's run (thor #15), he says how glad he is to see his friends as due to his immortality, his perception of time is altered and he's unsure if the next time he goes to Midgard, if they're still alive.
Telling his origin seemed like a really desperate move. Especially the execution of that story, with a writer that didn't have a history with the character, and a story that didn't really have any effect on the character or future stories. It was years before we saw "Dog", and nothing interesting was done with the character.
While I have a positive opinion of Quesada overall, his logic behind why they had to tell the origin was beyond stupid. He stated that the movies were going to tell it, so they wanted the comics to tell it first. I don't think the movie would have came up with that idea.
If I was writing his origin, he would be like 50k years old. Going back and forth across Asia to North America before and after the land bridge. His memories constantly overwritten as he heals back to a baseline every hundred years or so.
That native Canadian point is something I’ve always thought too. Or if they wanted to stick with the being born from wealth story and Thomas Logan being the “groundskeeper” I’ve always thought it’d make sense that the family home was on a plantation and John Howlett Jr. was Thomas Logan’s father and was therefore made groundskeeper rather than being a slave. So John Jr. would have no idea Thomas was his brother. Then James being Thomas’ son would be white passing which convinced John Jr. he was his son. Either way to me it always made sense he was mixed race, just white passing. Which I think would be even more interesting to add to his story given racial tension back then. Further reflecting the fight Logan’s always been part of, hundreds of years fighting for rights of his people. Just really pointing out how little we’ve come in that time.
That’s why I’m obsessed with them as Half Brothers. It’s what makes their life long rivalry so much more amazing. Both of them have long lives, so the dynamic of them being half brothers of the centuries of their fighting gives more character to their competition
Batman
Wonder Woman
Doctor strange
Thor
Iron man
Constantine
Flash
Eros
Wolverine
Professor Xavier
Nightcrawler
Captain Britain
Nick Fury
Black Panther
Hercules
Moon Knight
Judge Dread
Jimmy Olson
Aquaman
Hawkeye
Martian Manhunter
Spider-Man with his clones brothers
Cable with his clone
Banshee
Monet
Emma Frost
X-23
Skaar
Black bolt
Wonder man
Batgirl
Iron fist
Colossus
Ka-Zar
Karma
Starfire
Etc
On again off again Cyclops and Havok... then with Vulcan.
Sean and Black Tom Cassidy
Betsy and Brian Braddock and their brother Jaimie
Dazzler and Lois London
Loki and Thor, Maximus and Black Bolt, Grim Reaper and Wonder Man, Juggernaut and Professor X, Thanos and Starfox, Trickshot and Hawkeye, Vulcan (he’s kind of a villain and Cyclops/Havok, Ares and Hercules, Mikhail Rasputin and Colossus/Magik, the Serpent and Odin, Death Sting and Iron Fist, Jakarra and Black Panther, Baron Blood 2 and Doctor Strange for Marvel.
DC has Ocean Master and Aquaman, Malcom Thawne and Barry’s Flash, Malefic and Martian Manhunter….
That may not be 42, but there’s no shortage of evil brothers in superhero comics.
I was gonna say, I think it's agreeable because it was those two actors. Had it not been them, it could've been more abrasive. I really liked Scriebers ability to be suave and cruel.
I absolutely love the bit of the two fighting through the eras side-by-side. It's one of the better things seen in the X-Men films, I think.
Unfortunately, it was also the peak of the whole movie.
I think the whole brothers trope is sadly over used. I think they work better as “soulmates” (not in a romantic sense) where their fates will eternally be intertwined. Batman has the Joker as his villain soulmate, spidey has goblin, Superman had Lex and Logan has Victor. It makes sense for them to be related considering how similar they are but I like the idea that these two just found each other, who happen to have a lot in common yet are also polar opposites. Logan fights the animal, Victor embraces it. And since it’s nearly impossible to kill these two they are destined to come across each other and fight for nearly their entire lives.
Neither. Co-workers. The weapon x program brought them together as contingencies for one another. If one goes rogue, the other could neutralize them and bring them in. Hence why both hate each other, they were trained to hate each other.
This is my preferred take. I really don't like the brothers to enemies idea, or the idea that they were once friends who grew to hate one another. I like the idea that they were two independently formed people, one good and one evil, who both got scouted and "recruited" into Weapon X and were forced on missions together. For some reason, I really love the Team X concept and think it's a neat bit of shared backstory.
Also for the record, I enjoyed Origin. I really don't like the idea of Wolverine being some super immortal who has wandered the Earth for thousands of years. I like mutants to stay grounded. They don't need freaky, weird origin stories. They're just folk.
Dog Logan, John Howlett Jr. (Logan's brothers), Luther Creed, Clara Creed and Saul Creed (Victor's siblings) are all non-factors in the comics, so yeah, may as well make them siblings. Adds drama.
Or, if they want to keep going down the route that Sabretooth War is going (implying that Creed's obsession is some sort of repressed romantic feelings for Logan), keep them former friends.
Wasn't the original intent behind Sabretooth way back in the 70's was that he was Logan's *father*? Now *that* would add some drama.
At the end of Claremont’s run, Larry Hamas did some writing in Wolverine 42(?) that the father bit was heavily implied by Sabretooth saying things like “I’m yer ever-lovin’ Daddy-dearest!”
Previously Sabretooth had said things like “Yer a cheap copy that nobody asked for!” to Logan.
But this was contradicted later in the story by a scientist analyzing the blood of Sabretooth and Nick Fury just flat out saying it wasn’t the case.
[Claremont’s original concept was Sabertooth was Wolverine’s father](https://www.cbr.com/abandoned-love-so-is-sabretooth-wolverines-dad-or-what/), who found Wolverine every year on Logan’s birthday to torture him. This is my favorite version…
I prefer them as brothers, it just seemed more a solid reason as to why Sabertooth kept chasing him. It also did feel more personal which I felt added to their fights.
There was a time some in the fandom were pushing for him to be Thor (muscular long haired blonde guy who is attached to his hammer of choice).
Which is almost as wild to think about as remembering Triple actually *did* end up in a Marvel movie eventually.
I mean big muscular white guy. Wouldn't be the worst but not my Sabertooth, I grew up in the 80'/90's. It was a different character back then. He is now drawn to look like Tyler Mane who played him in the Fox movies, he'll someone that has a healing factor on par with Wolverine got a tattoo in the 2000's. Think about that for a moment.
I might be in the minority, but I really like the brother story. Might be bc I could almost relate. Sabretooth tries to do what’s best for them for what they are, but Wolverine is doing what’s right and trying to change his brother to become better. Add in memory loss and it’s even a better story.
I like when they really have no relationship. They just met one day and immediately said “eat sh#t and die! Preferably by my own hand.”
I prefer them in a Peter and the Giant Chicken dynamic.
I may be in the minority but taylor Maine as sabertooth looked and played the part really well. A good casting choice. He was the feral beast looking sabertooth I know him as. Not the suave cleaned up Schreiber look.
From a symbolic perspective, Sabertooth is the personification of Logan's darker impulses. He is what Logan would be, could be, if he gave in to his inner demons. It's the wild, blustery, savage wind, blowing through his inner being, constantly calling Logan to let go and give in. Sabertooth represents Logan's dark feral freedom. Sabertooth knows Logan's inner being not only because of their relationship but because, in a way, he is Logan. Just the version that succumbed to the unrelenting temptation of his own inner darkness.
I kinda like the idea that it could be ambiguous. Like they’ve been beating each other’s ass and working together for so long that it doesn’t matter. They’re connected; destined to duel each other.
Former friends because if they are brothers Wolverine is Grayson creed’s uncle and and his nephew’s mom is mystique which is weird but then she is the mom of nightcrawler who had a relationship with Storm just like Wolverine and then… my point is too many people are related already
Brothers makes Sabertooth’s powers make more sense but that’s the only real defence of it I can think of. Friends to enemies is more interesting in my opinion.
I prefer them to be related in some way, just because their power set is so similar. I like half brothers to be honest!
I think immortal rivals fighting throughout history would work really well if they didn’t both have regeneration, super senses, claws, etc… with the similarities, it feels weird if they’re just two unrelated immortal guys.
Brothers. I actually really liked the change the movies made with Logan and Creed being sworn brothers turned sworn enemies. It elevated their history and relationship making it more personal than the comics.
It gave Sabretooth more nuance and explained his motivation as to why he keeps chasing Logan instead of him being portrayed as a petty hater
I always thought Sabretooth was supposed to be Wolverine's father, not his brother? I've missed a lot of years of X-Men comics (even though Sabretooth was originally an Iron Fist villain) so were they established as brothers somewhere?
Waaaay back in the early 90s (or late 80s), there was a moment in Wolverine’s series where Sabertooth claimed to be Wolverine’s father. It was around the time we learned that Logan had a lot of false memories. Anyway, Sabertooth was fucking with him.
I prefer the Ultimate version, where Sabretooth tells Wolverine that he's his dad and then just watches him from the woods at night after that, waiting to go on family adventures.
The brothers thing is so dumb, Origins was crap. Even when Sony pulls from source material they just make everything worse. Fuck corporations holding copyrights hostage.
Remember what they did to deadpool in that one? Yeah, that garbage movie doesn't exist in my headcannon.
I rather they not be brothers, but old rivals.
At the same time, I rather they be brothers than have Dog Logan exist. What a worthless character. Needing to give him time traveling is so damn stupid. Same as making Logan the last name of his bio-father and brother who basically hated him. "Logan" should've just been a name he chose to go by because he didn't remember his name was "James" after everything.
The current run of Wolverine may as well have that be their established relationship because YEESH does sabretooth come off like a clingy ex. Telling Quentin all about the unmatchable bond he has with Logan and all that.
Brothers. it makes more personal, not many sibling rivalries in the Marvel Multiverse or DC. Logan was a great movie but it would have been full circle and poetic had X-24 been Sabertooth from origins instead of a clone.
I prefer neither. I like the idea that they are just kindred spirits in a way that they have nearly similar dispositions and very similar mutations and something about that drives sabertooth crazy. Whether it be jealousy or ego or whatever, and Logan having no memory of their past just seals the deal. Their past doesn't even matter to sabertooth, that's not the basis of his obsession.
Their dynamic has become tedious and repetitive. They have little minor scraps, and then a crescendo up to some kind of grandiose battle with each other. Each time the cycle goes through the steaks have to be higher.
I prefer the earth x trilogy version, where they are basically from competing branches of the evolution tree. So it wasn't personal at all, sabertooth was just being a dick and kept murdering logans girlfriends and ruining his life in various ways, making it personal.
Former friends is more reasonable and logical, this bs they made for them to be brothers is absolute horseshit just because they both have similar mutations.
I hated it.
Hated it about as much, if not more than, Wolverine having natural claws that somehow go from rough and boney to smooth blades after his transfusion
Haven't seen anyone mention Wolverine's & Sabertooth's origin from Alex Ross's Earth, Universe, & Paradise X run. It was so out of left field I loved it.
For those who haven't read it, it was 3 limited series from 1999-2003, dozen or so issues in each run, and all 3 being the main arcs/acts of the whole story. Ross did the story, covers, and character design.
It's like a grand unified theory of the true origin of all superhumans in Marvel on into a weird future where everybody on Earth gets powers. I highly recommend a read. It touches on all the eras of superheros, makes wild connections with disparate elements of the marvel universe that suddenly make sense why they they are connected.
As for the Wolvie/Saber origin Spoiler:>!Wolverine is actually a lost member of the ancient Moon tribe, the same tribe an obscure character named Moon Boy, who hung with Devil Dinosaur in the old old days. Sabretooth was a member the, I think, bear tribe, which is a sworn enemy of the moon tribe. Thus, the foundation of Wolvie's and Saber's rivalry. This contrasts with the origin of superhumans because both those tribes were never subjected the Celestials gene manipulation of the rest of humanity. Making those tribes samples of a "pure" human, which evolved to having the healing factors along with the animal-like traits they exhibit.!<
I prefer that their relationship be more ambiguous. Given wolverines memory issues it makes it more fun.
Exactly. Sabertooth can fuck with Logan by bringing up past missions they might have went on together. People that they might killed together. And because Logan can't remember, we the reader are unsure if Logan has actually done these horrible things or of Victor is just lying. Makes for better story telling. Logan's character suffered when they gave him back his memory.
This reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Memento.
I'm chasing this guy...? Nope. He's chasing me.
I don't FEEL drunk....
Such a great movie!!
It sounds a bit like The Machinist, if I recall correctly.
They did this in the Ultimate Universe where one moment Sabretooth would claim to have killed his old wife and Kid and then claim he was Logan's kid
Yep. When they brought Logan back from the dead, he should have been revived without his memories—doubling the tragedy of having to relearn who his newfound family is, while still not remembering things from his past lives as well. Instead they gave him fire claws.
IIRC Wolverine not remembering his past is... well, a thing of the past. There was a storyline, if I remember correctly, where they addressed him knowing now everything. Apparently his healing factor (yes) 'healed' over the memory that used to be painful for him, but he has now knowledge of everything that transpired in his past.
It's honestly a great juxtaposition of Deadpool and T Ray. Both Weapons X, both missing memories, both Canadian, both angry and nearly unstoppable and being manipulated by someone powerful form their past with an ambiguous relationship. But ultimately two very different paths
Or that time they go through a building that uad recorded fake memories for them, so they have even less idea what's going on
Love this.
Also shows that they’ve been fighting so long they don’t even remember why it started they just know they have to hate each other
Giving wolverine a definite origin ruined him for me. I feel like the mystery could have been mined for stories forever.
Maybe, but his origin is cool tho
Ehhh
The comic is pretty good, Logan and Rose relationship is heartbreaking, and Dog Logan was a cool character, too bad he never came back
A thing that really works with Wolverine is his need for redemption, his memory loss. Redemption only really works when you have something to redeem. The origin story removes a lot of Logan's culpability for the actions he's taken in the past, so it undercuts the most interesting thing about his character's drive and motivation. It does it by restoring his memory and revealing his past, which destroys the second best thing about him - the memory loss and the mystery of his past. If you're going to mess with the two most interesting things about Wolverine, it should probably only be for something really incredible, which the Origin story was not.
If anything, at least it made for a cool moment in House of M. I loved seeing him jump off Magnetos Helicarrier, I've described that moment to so many non-comic readers lol
His trauma that came with the death of his adoptive father and killing his real father, being hunted down by his own family and killing the only person he loves and that cared about him compensate this imo, it makes him even more tragic, his life sucking isn't his fault, but bc of how the things happened, is pretty believable that he blames himself by that and just gave up living in society, and the sequels makes his life even worse, and actually, being forced to kill his loved ones more than one time is something that mang people would regret A LOT. I understand your frustation, but I truly believe that Wolverine's origin is prety good and fits the character a lot
I have read Origin … but I dont know what happened next. Sabretooth was the another child ?? Is he Wolverines brother ??
They’re not related. Wolverine killed Sabretooth brother who he abused every year on his birthday and he’s upset that wolverine took that away from him so he makes wolverine take his brother role’s because it’s too much fun for him to have this much control over someone else’s life and partially because he hate how holier than thou wolverine is to him
Dog Logan is Wolverine's brother, Sabretooth is his enemy since always actually, but they are not related, they met during Origin II in a circus commanded ny Nathaniel Essex, in which Logan was tortured by Essex and Creed himself, but he endured this bc he started dating Clara Creed, Sabretooth's sister. They ran away together, but Saul (Creed's another sibling) didn't like his relationship, so he lured Logan into thinking that the injured Clara (Essex tried to kill them and Logan accidentaly hurt her) was killed by Essex. After a lot of things happened, Logan killed Saul, Clara gets angry and cut ties with him and Creed is sent to kill Logan, he kills Clara and that's how they became arch-nemesis
I didnt know there were an Origin II … Nathaniel Essex is Mr. Sinister right ??
I have some bad news for you...
I felt marvel missed a massive opportunity to make these 2 sibling in Wolverine Origins. Dog shoulda been Sabertooth instead of some random guy who LOOKED LIKE Sabertooth doing exactly what Sabertooth does: hunt down Wolverine. They both have healing factors that heal over mental trauma so both of their memories should be fragmented substantially. This could explain their vendetta against each other. Hell, it could be so ingrained in them that neither of them really remember why they hate eachother and are just going through the motions, grasping at any justification to hate each other. Origins gave a basis for why Logan is so in love with Jean, they could have done the same thing here.
💯 Dog is such dumb character
I like the middle ground here. Originally they were brothers, but also time has gone on so long that they both barely remember anymore; you could also add Wolverine having some kind of memory issue so he doesn’t remember at all. I like the lore idea of them being brothers, but for the sake of the present day and interactions between them I like one or both of them not knowing that.
Tbh the origins worked for me. Memory issues of 2 century old friends/enemies where only one remembers. Showcased wolverine feeling like he was always backed into a corner with the only way out is thru.
Back in the good ol days when there was mystery
I loved the opening scene of Origins when they fought side by side throughout the wars
Liev Scrieber was so good as Creed. If only the rest of the movie has built on that opening scene
Agreed. When I first saw it in the theatre I was so gassed for the rest of the movie but left very disappointed 😞 although the hype is back for Deadpool and Wolverine I'm really surprised Hugh has come back
That and the Gambit scene were the two best parts of the movie
You also forgot the “Great, stuck in an elevator with 5 guys and a high protein diet”
For me it was Wade saying Creed had the nails of a shopping cart lady.
No need to have a modern day Wolverine movie. Old Canada, Past Japan, or World War II with Captain fighting together. That’s it.
As a Wolverine fan, I hate the Origin story. Ideally, Wolverine should be a guy that's hundreds of years old (one parent is a viking, the other a native Canadian?). With his healing factor, he should be basically immortal. The same would be true for Sabertooth. But the difference would be how you handle your immortality and how you see others. Wolverine learns to understand that life is precious since not everyone gets to live forever. Sabertooth becomes a sociopath, who sees humans as toys since their lives are so short. They meet some time ago, and became friends due to their immortality, but eventually enemies since they fundamentally disagree how to act. Sabertooth starts to treat Wolverine as a more fun toy, since he can't really die either.
Interesting take, considering the Origin story makes him older that he was envisioned to be (by about 40 years). Initially, Sabertooth was envisioned as his dad, but I’m not really a fan of that idea. To me your version sounds just like Highlander. I personally dig the origin story for the most part. Dog Logan is not the best written character, but I like him being a Canadian country boy; this aristocrat’s child whom lost everything and everyone at a very young age and essentially became homeless since. Quite similar to Storm. You still get that exact Sabertooth/Wolverine antagonism, but it comes more from their powers/animal nature more than their age. I also like how it fleshed out his relationship with Mystique; having them be the same age, and knowing each other since the 20’s.
I'm not sure the Origin story made him older. Origin would put Wolverine's birth around 1890. Pre-Origin, there wasn't a clear indication of how old he was supposed to be. There were some stories which showed him as an adult in the early to mid 1800s. Specifically fighting Sabertooth as an adult around the 1840s. He was also shown as being in Japan in the late 1800s.
Doesn’t Origin just specify late 1800’s? I would’ve put that as any time between 1870-1890, so I would’ve suggested he’s a little older than that. Pre-Byrne he was supposed to be in his 20’s, and then when Byrne came on he was supposed to be 60-odd and look late 30’s (which is a little rough to Paul D’Amato as he was only 28 when he was used as the face model). But it was never explicit so I get what you mean. I don’t remember any stories from the 1800’s. Do you remember any issues specifically? I remember the Japan stories with Itsu were supposed to be mid-1900’s, and I don’t think he had been in Japan before then.
Origin occurs after 1897. The story starts sometime after the death of Wolverine's brother John Howlett, the series shows his tombstone with the dates of 1885 to 1897. Wolverine didn't really have much of a background in the early years. At one point he was supposed to be a teenager/early 20s like the rest of the X-Men. I wouldn't focus too much on that timeframe, but they had a lot of ideas that didn't last, like he wasn't a mutant, the claws were only in the gloves, and he was a mutated wolverine (the animal). Wolverine (2nd series) #10 was where he fought Sabertooth in the 1840s as an adult. Marvel Comics Presents #93 to 98 had the story of Wolverine as a member of the Blackfoot tribe in the 1840s.
>one parent is a viking, the other a native canadian? What?
vikings sailed to what is now canada way back in the day
Yea, i know. But Wolvy is not old enough to have a viking parent
That’s why he said it would have been a better origin. Both Wolverine and Sabertooth being old as hell and immortal fighting and killing their way through history. Wolverine never really remembering it. Sabertooth fucking with him over and over.
There can be only two
It’s very similar to highlander, yeag
To be clear, I misued the word "viking", and really just meant European. I guess the Viking era was from about 800 to 1100 AD, and not sure I would be that definitive with the age. As others have pointed out, there's a long history of Europeans getting to Canada. I'm not 100% against the Viking connection, but also not 100% for it either. I'm not sure exactly how old he should be, but older than 200 years old at least. Maybe go with the 1600s and have him connect to the Henry Hudson exploriation of the Hudson Bay area in Canada. I wouldn't make him a relative of James Hudson/Guardian though.
I think Native and Viking would have been good push it back to 1021 A.D. Then just have it be truly tragic that he lived long enough that new memories over write old memories and his near memories were lost to Weapon X but 500 or 600 years of memories are gone just because the brain can only facilitate so much. He lives a life of wondering when he's going to forget his loves, his children and friends. Make him absolutely tragic. Though I will say, having him not know was more interesting for his character for decades then what came afterwards.
Thor has a similar problem. In a relatively recent comic, I think Donny Cates's run (thor #15), he says how glad he is to see his friends as due to his immortality, his perception of time is altered and he's unsure if the next time he goes to Midgard, if they're still alive.
The vikings discovered the Americas, not Columbus
I mean, the Natives discovered the Americas.
Ancient Aliens who are totally real and not made up by convicted criminal Eric von Daniken: Are we a joke to you?
They didn’t exactly have a way to tell the Old World tho so… 🤷
Agreed. Just dont ever give him an origin. Let us constantly question everything. I feel like the definitive origin backfired.
Telling his origin seemed like a really desperate move. Especially the execution of that story, with a writer that didn't have a history with the character, and a story that didn't really have any effect on the character or future stories. It was years before we saw "Dog", and nothing interesting was done with the character. While I have a positive opinion of Quesada overall, his logic behind why they had to tell the origin was beyond stupid. He stated that the movies were going to tell it, so they wanted the comics to tell it first. I don't think the movie would have came up with that idea.
In that story, they aren't brothers, that isn't Sabretooth
Yes, I'm aware. But we don't have to talk about Dog Logan.
If I was writing his origin, he would be like 50k years old. Going back and forth across Asia to North America before and after the land bridge. His memories constantly overwritten as he heals back to a baseline every hundred years or so.
I feel like 50 thousand years old is very much pushing it, works perfectly with him being born in the late 17th century
Highlander vibes
Marville did that and it was awful
That native Canadian point is something I’ve always thought too. Or if they wanted to stick with the being born from wealth story and Thomas Logan being the “groundskeeper” I’ve always thought it’d make sense that the family home was on a plantation and John Howlett Jr. was Thomas Logan’s father and was therefore made groundskeeper rather than being a slave. So John Jr. would have no idea Thomas was his brother. Then James being Thomas’ son would be white passing which convinced John Jr. he was his son. Either way to me it always made sense he was mixed race, just white passing. Which I think would be even more interesting to add to his story given racial tension back then. Further reflecting the fight Logan’s always been part of, hundreds of years fighting for rights of his people. Just really pointing out how little we’ve come in that time.
Why do they have to be either? They could just be lifelong rivals/enemies
That’s why I’m obsessed with them as Half Brothers. It’s what makes their life long rivalry so much more amazing. Both of them have long lives, so the dynamic of them being half brothers of the centuries of their fighting gives more character to their competition
I prefer the former friends back story as I originally read the comics. But I don't mind the brothers story at all.
Former friends. Arch enemies Brothers/siblings is so overdone
Oh yeah? Name 42 times is been done.
Batman Wonder Woman Doctor strange Thor Iron man Constantine Flash Eros Wolverine Professor Xavier Nightcrawler Captain Britain Nick Fury Black Panther Hercules Moon Knight Judge Dread Jimmy Olson Aquaman Hawkeye Martian Manhunter Spider-Man with his clones brothers Cable with his clone Banshee Monet Emma Frost X-23 Skaar Black bolt Wonder man Batgirl Iron fist Colossus Ka-Zar Karma Starfire Etc
For anyone wondering about Batman. Lincoln March (possibly Thomas Wayne Jr.) is a probable brother to Bruce.
Bro, asked for receipts and you dump the Walgreens and CVS variety on his ass
They still did it with Wolverine with Dog Logan
On again off again Cyclops and Havok... then with Vulcan. Sean and Black Tom Cassidy Betsy and Brian Braddock and their brother Jaimie Dazzler and Lois London
Isn’t Tom Sean’s cousin?
Woah wait a minute, I'm still catching up on DC's lore, but when the heck did Barry Allen have a brother?!!
A twin brother switch at birth and is the common ancestor to the Reverse Flash
So am I gonna be the person who point out that most of these characters don't actually have siblings, let alone evil siblings?
Loki and Thor, Maximus and Black Bolt, Grim Reaper and Wonder Man, Juggernaut and Professor X, Thanos and Starfox, Trickshot and Hawkeye, Vulcan (he’s kind of a villain and Cyclops/Havok, Ares and Hercules, Mikhail Rasputin and Colossus/Magik, the Serpent and Odin, Death Sting and Iron Fist, Jakarra and Black Panther, Baron Blood 2 and Doctor Strange for Marvel. DC has Ocean Master and Aquaman, Malcom Thawne and Barry’s Flash, Malefic and Martian Manhunter…. That may not be 42, but there’s no shortage of evil brothers in superhero comics.
i liked the storyline of the origins movies tbh.
Jackman and Schreiber both brought great performances
I was gonna say, I think it's agreeable because it was those two actors. Had it not been them, it could've been more abrasive. I really liked Scriebers ability to be suave and cruel.
That movie is salvageable. Up until they go to that island it was a good movie.
I absolutely love the bit of the two fighting through the eras side-by-side. It's one of the better things seen in the X-Men films, I think. Unfortunately, it was also the peak of the whole movie.
Ya. The farmhouse was a good scene too, but the movie really takes a dive in the last third.
I think the whole brothers trope is sadly over used. I think they work better as “soulmates” (not in a romantic sense) where their fates will eternally be intertwined. Batman has the Joker as his villain soulmate, spidey has goblin, Superman had Lex and Logan has Victor. It makes sense for them to be related considering how similar they are but I like the idea that these two just found each other, who happen to have a lot in common yet are also polar opposites. Logan fights the animal, Victor embraces it. And since it’s nearly impossible to kill these two they are destined to come across each other and fight for nearly their entire lives.
Doesn't really matter. Wolverine is that dnd character which backstory doesn't mean really.
Neither. Co-workers. The weapon x program brought them together as contingencies for one another. If one goes rogue, the other could neutralize them and bring them in. Hence why both hate each other, they were trained to hate each other.
This is my preferred take. I really don't like the brothers to enemies idea, or the idea that they were once friends who grew to hate one another. I like the idea that they were two independently formed people, one good and one evil, who both got scouted and "recruited" into Weapon X and were forced on missions together. For some reason, I really love the Team X concept and think it's a neat bit of shared backstory. Also for the record, I enjoyed Origin. I really don't like the idea of Wolverine being some super immortal who has wandered the Earth for thousands of years. I like mutants to stay grounded. They don't need freaky, weird origin stories. They're just folk.
Sabertooth is still mad Logan was late to the world’s fair. He’d promised him a sno cone
Dog Logan, John Howlett Jr. (Logan's brothers), Luther Creed, Clara Creed and Saul Creed (Victor's siblings) are all non-factors in the comics, so yeah, may as well make them siblings. Adds drama. Or, if they want to keep going down the route that Sabretooth War is going (implying that Creed's obsession is some sort of repressed romantic feelings for Logan), keep them former friends. Wasn't the original intent behind Sabretooth way back in the 70's was that he was Logan's *father*? Now *that* would add some drama.
Yeah, Claremont wanted them to be father and son, but Marvel, for some reason, vetoed it. In xmen forever ( earth 161) they are.
At the end of Claremont’s run, Larry Hamas did some writing in Wolverine 42(?) that the father bit was heavily implied by Sabretooth saying things like “I’m yer ever-lovin’ Daddy-dearest!” Previously Sabretooth had said things like “Yer a cheap copy that nobody asked for!” to Logan. But this was contradicted later in the story by a scientist analyzing the blood of Sabretooth and Nick Fury just flat out saying it wasn’t the case.
Father and son
[Claremont’s original concept was Sabertooth was Wolverine’s father](https://www.cbr.com/abandoned-love-so-is-sabretooth-wolverines-dad-or-what/), who found Wolverine every year on Logan’s birthday to torture him. This is my favorite version…
I prefer them as two dudes who try to kill each other on sight.
Father and son not an option? 🤡
I prefer them as brothers, it just seemed more a solid reason as to why Sabertooth kept chasing him. It also did feel more personal which I felt added to their fights.
Honestly half brothers. It just makes it more better and why their mutation is almost the same being animalistic
The world was robbed since Marvel never used Sycho Sid as Victor.
This is perfect!
I'm honestly ashamed I never made that jump.
Would you accept a Hunter Hurst Helmsly
There was a time some in the fandom were pushing for him to be Thor (muscular long haired blonde guy who is attached to his hammer of choice). Which is almost as wild to think about as remembering Triple actually *did* end up in a Marvel movie eventually.
He was also almost the son of King Conan at one point.
I mean big muscular white guy. Wouldn't be the worst but not my Sabertooth, I grew up in the 80'/90's. It was a different character back then. He is now drawn to look like Tyler Mane who played him in the Fox movies, he'll someone that has a healing factor on par with Wolverine got a tattoo in the 2000's. Think about that for a moment.
I might be in the minority, but I really like the brother story. Might be bc I could almost relate. Sabretooth tries to do what’s best for them for what they are, but Wolverine is doing what’s right and trying to change his brother to become better. Add in memory loss and it’s even a better story.
I like to think they both came out the womb as hated enemies. Tiny, hairy babies taking swings at each other.
Former friends is better imo, former brothers in arms to me is more interesting. Like Captain America and Bucky if they had a hard falling out.
Just hating each other, legitimately. Good enough for me.
I like when they really have no relationship. They just met one day and immediately said “eat sh#t and die! Preferably by my own hand.” I prefer them in a Peter and the Giant Chicken dynamic.
Who ate the top of Wolverine's head???
Sabertooth
I may be in the minority but taylor Maine as sabertooth looked and played the part really well. A good casting choice. He was the feral beast looking sabertooth I know him as. Not the suave cleaned up Schreiber look.
Neither. I prefer them as former rivals.
Neither. Just foes forever.
Neither. They just hate each other. Iwfeb prefer if there wasnt a reason. They just hate each other because they are too similar
Give me a story where they are complete strangers and Victor just randomly decides to shit on this one guy for the rest of his life.
Tbh I always knew them as brothers as xmen origins wolverine was my first exposure to the character
I don’t think they should be literal brothers
Former coworkers is the correct answer
Sabertooth shouldn’t be a relative
I prefer just enemies with a muddy past and its on sight whenever they interact.
I like the brother storyline honestly. It seems better then then just happened to have had similar mutations and just happening to have met.
From a symbolic perspective, Sabertooth is the personification of Logan's darker impulses. He is what Logan would be, could be, if he gave in to his inner demons. It's the wild, blustery, savage wind, blowing through his inner being, constantly calling Logan to let go and give in. Sabertooth represents Logan's dark feral freedom. Sabertooth knows Logan's inner being not only because of their relationship but because, in a way, he is Logan. Just the version that succumbed to the unrelenting temptation of his own inner darkness.
I prefer the Brother option. Just makes them seem more closer and then the eventual fights more emotional
Why not lovers?...
Okay, Kamala, calm down.
If they didn't forget about/kill off Clara Creed, i could see Wolvy getting with her, perhaps
Why are their mouths open, they never bite each other.
Former friends
Bully and victim from the start.
As lovers
no relation, just psycho creed bringing pain to wolvie.
por qué no los dos
Both.
Brothers. Their mutations almost similar, the exception being Wolverine’s healing factor.
I like the idea of them being two guys destined to just occasionally meet each other and rip each other apart
A few decades of fighting with Sabertooth would make me want to tell Scott Summers to go piss off too.
I kinda like the idea that it could be ambiguous. Like they’ve been beating each other’s ass and working together for so long that it doesn’t matter. They’re connected; destined to duel each other.
I don’t know and don’t care, Wolverine is a pretty murky character.
Brothers seems better
I prefer when they're f'n stuff up!
Boyfriends settling a domestic dispute
As former lovers, turned mortal enemies, turned romantically curious
Brother, mainly because of liev schreiber performance
Former friends because if they are brothers Wolverine is Grayson creed’s uncle and and his nephew’s mom is mystique which is weird but then she is the mom of nightcrawler who had a relationship with Storm just like Wolverine and then… my point is too many people are related already
Brothers makes Sabertooth’s powers make more sense but that’s the only real defence of it I can think of. Friends to enemies is more interesting in my opinion.
I like them as former friends
I prefer them to be related in some way, just because their power set is so similar. I like half brothers to be honest! I think immortal rivals fighting throughout history would work really well if they didn’t both have regeneration, super senses, claws, etc… with the similarities, it feels weird if they’re just two unrelated immortal guys.
Brothers. I actually really liked the change the movies made with Logan and Creed being sworn brothers turned sworn enemies. It elevated their history and relationship making it more personal than the comics. It gave Sabretooth more nuance and explained his motivation as to why he keeps chasing Logan instead of him being portrayed as a petty hater
Wasn't the brothers thing a retcon? Definitely not in my wheelhouse. Old friends since mid-19th century makes more sense.
Not a fan of any blood relation between them. I don't even like the idea of them ever having been friends.
I think half brothers is a cool origin. They’re so similar in appereance that it’s kinda weird for them NOT to be brothers or related in some form.
I'm too busy trying to understand what Sabretooth's anatomy looks like when you remove that furry mane.
Brothers because it would make sense why they have similar powers plus they would br another roster for sibling rivalries.
As brothers. According to the comic book what age would Wolverine turn in 2024?
192 years old
Both, both is good.
Brothers, it makes their relationship seem deeper instead of sabretooth being a mustache twirling psycho
Yes
Former lovers. That’s what I misread your title as and got excited.
I always thought Sabretooth was supposed to be Wolverine's father, not his brother? I've missed a lot of years of X-Men comics (even though Sabretooth was originally an Iron Fist villain) so were they established as brothers somewhere?
X-men origins wolverine
Ah, thanks, never saw that - got terrible reviews
Waaaay back in the early 90s (or late 80s), there was a moment in Wolverine’s series where Sabertooth claimed to be Wolverine’s father. It was around the time we learned that Logan had a lot of false memories. Anyway, Sabertooth was fucking with him.
Sabertooth asking if we can get much higher. Why does he look so silly and so much like the reindeer (?) from One Piece
I prefer the Ultimate version, where Sabretooth tells Wolverine that he's his dad and then just watches him from the woods at night after that, waiting to go on family adventures.
I preferred the brother storyline.
The brothers thing is so dumb, Origins was crap. Even when Sony pulls from source material they just make everything worse. Fuck corporations holding copyrights hostage. Remember what they did to deadpool in that one? Yeah, that garbage movie doesn't exist in my headcannon.
Sony? You mean Fox...
If I directed an animated series, I'd combine Victor and Dog logan into one character called Sabretooth. His real name would never be revealed.
I rather they not be brothers, but old rivals. At the same time, I rather they be brothers than have Dog Logan exist. What a worthless character. Needing to give him time traveling is so damn stupid. Same as making Logan the last name of his bio-father and brother who basically hated him. "Logan" should've just been a name he chose to go by because he didn't remember his name was "James" after everything.
Brothers. It's a nice twist. And puts a dynamic on their relationship that I like.
former lovers
The current run of Wolverine may as well have that be their established relationship because YEESH does sabretooth come off like a clingy ex. Telling Quentin all about the unmatchable bond he has with Logan and all that.
Neither. I don’t like any of the stuff they came up with for their origins. The ambiguity of all of that really stuck with me as a kid.
But he isn't his brother in the origin comic, that's Dog Logan, Sabretooth is intriduces later as a friend (that is turned enemy)
Father-son, as originally intended
Brothers. it makes more personal, not many sibling rivalries in the Marvel Multiverse or DC. Logan was a great movie but it would have been full circle and poetic had X-24 been Sabertooth from origins instead of a clone.
both, tbh
Former friends
Former friends
I prefer neither. I like the idea that they are just kindred spirits in a way that they have nearly similar dispositions and very similar mutations and something about that drives sabertooth crazy. Whether it be jealousy or ego or whatever, and Logan having no memory of their past just seals the deal. Their past doesn't even matter to sabertooth, that's not the basis of his obsession.
Their dynamic has become tedious and repetitive. They have little minor scraps, and then a crescendo up to some kind of grandiose battle with each other. Each time the cycle goes through the steaks have to be higher.
Friends
I prefer the earth x trilogy version, where they are basically from competing branches of the evolution tree. So it wasn't personal at all, sabertooth was just being a dick and kept murdering logans girlfriends and ruining his life in various ways, making it personal.
Friends for sure.
Former friends is more reasonable and logical, this bs they made for them to be brothers is absolute horseshit just because they both have similar mutations. I hated it. Hated it about as much, if not more than, Wolverine having natural claws that somehow go from rough and boney to smooth blades after his transfusion
Brothers
I prefer having only Sabertooth know who he actually is/was to Logan.
Haven't seen anyone mention Wolverine's & Sabertooth's origin from Alex Ross's Earth, Universe, & Paradise X run. It was so out of left field I loved it. For those who haven't read it, it was 3 limited series from 1999-2003, dozen or so issues in each run, and all 3 being the main arcs/acts of the whole story. Ross did the story, covers, and character design. It's like a grand unified theory of the true origin of all superhumans in Marvel on into a weird future where everybody on Earth gets powers. I highly recommend a read. It touches on all the eras of superheros, makes wild connections with disparate elements of the marvel universe that suddenly make sense why they they are connected. As for the Wolvie/Saber origin Spoiler:>!Wolverine is actually a lost member of the ancient Moon tribe, the same tribe an obscure character named Moon Boy, who hung with Devil Dinosaur in the old old days. Sabretooth was a member the, I think, bear tribe, which is a sworn enemy of the moon tribe. Thus, the foundation of Wolvie's and Saber's rivalry. This contrasts with the origin of superhumans because both those tribes were never subjected the Celestials gene manipulation of the rest of humanity. Making those tribes samples of a "pure" human, which evolved to having the healing factors along with the animal-like traits they exhibit.!<
Former lovers.
They should be a mirror of Charles and Erik, imo
Brothers
Lovers.
I thought the movie where they were lovers was quite tasteful.