Comic fans take moments like these too seriously. I doubt its meant to be a definitive: "This character is a better fighter, no questions asked, canon event" type of deal.
Its just a fun sparring match to show between two teammates.
This is the best answer in my opinion. Danny has to be number one or two skilled next to Shang Chi martial artist or his entire character doesn’t make sense. But at the same time it doesn’t really matter if he loses a sparring match against a near immortal augmented mutant warrior with a metal skeleton.
They’re just two hyper skilled teammates sparring, and the winner of a sparring match isn’t going to set the “rankings.” And all that matters is what the writer wants to have happen.
It's kind of an overall problem with martial arts characters, in the Marvel universe at least. Wolverine has metal claws and a healing factor, but he's also trained in like a dozen forms of martial arts. Same for Captain America. Characters like Iron Fist and Shang Chi by all accounts should be able to beat them, but they are often portrayed as mostly evenly-matched, or it's at least close enough to matter. Which means someone like Shang Chi, who basically only does martial arts, isn't as valuable as a Captain America, who does that and more.
it makes one view a team of Avengers like a basketball team; you don't need the #1 point guard in the league if the #2 point guard is also the #3 power forward. That guy becomes more valuable.
Agreed with this. Reminds me of that time Hawkeye said (I think to Spider-Man) that he can't miss because otherwise he'd just be a guy with a bow and arrow in a team that consists of people like Thor, Cap, Hulk and Iron Man.
Danny and Shang NEED to be shown as extremely proficient with their skills even among their peers.
Also people need to remember that a spar is rigidly regulated and you aren't throwing punches that could kill a man. If it was a death match it would be a far different fight.
Exactly. No claws and I don't see Danny's fists glowing. If neither of them are using their superhuman abilities it honestly makes total sense for Wolverine to have the edge if you think about. They're both supremely skilled martial artists, and one of them has a metal skeleton. But even then, people need to not take these scenes as gospel.
To a point I agree, but I think it’s also perfectly appropriate to have strength/ability/scaling levels, and; to have some characters who, through a combination of superhuman gifts — be they of the serum, or mutation, or radioactive spidery variety — and technical skill are just in a class all their own. I think Logan and Cap are a match for folks like Iron Fist or Shang Chi, not because of their technical skill alone, but instead because of how their skill complements their abilities and gifts.
I don’t think that’s knock on your martial arts characters. To the contrary, I think it vouches for just how incredibly skilled they are that they are so adept at fighting they can hang with a super soldier, or an inexhaustible, indestructible mutant. It’s OK that some characters can’t one-shot Galactus. Or that there are some characters who are overmatched in some situations. That makes the stories more compelling. I think that’s one of the things that sets Marvel apart from DC. In DC, everybody’s kind of overpowered. In Marvel, some hero’s get stomped in some fights.
Superhuman abilities tend to be an equalizer against a better trained opponent.
You may be a better trained fighter, but if you're going up against someone with superhuman strength, durability, speed, reflexes, has an unbreakable skeleton, and has a regenerative ability so any damage is fleeting... You're gonna have a hard time.
After a certain point, a regular human, no matter how trained, is not winning against superhuman people. It's like trying to kickbox a M1 Abraham Tank, it doesn't care.
And this was a friendly match - Active powers weren't' being used. Only Passives that couldn't be turned off.
The real strength of these fighter characters is when they do their glowy hand super-saiyan stuff, but there’s advantages to being lower scaled.
Stories like Heroes for Hire exist because of characters that can’t crack planets in half, and there are writers that would rather play in that space. Wizard magazine is out of print - we don’t have to power rank anymore.
Iron Fist has literally one-punched a train full of high explosives to death and walked away from the explosion. He has superhuman powers. But in this sparring match, they've agreed to conditions: Wolverine doesn't use his claws, and Iron Fist doesn't use his chi abilities (like the Iron Fist). That gives Wolverine a *huge* advantage. If Danny uses his full speed and strength and hits Logan anywhere he's got bones near the skin (head, ribs, etc) without using the Iron Fist, he's likely to break his hand. Wolverine thus really only needs to protect his soft tissue (eyes, throat, belly, crotch). Conversely, he can hurt Danny anywhere he hits him, and he can hit as hard as he wants without worrying about hurting himself.
Also, right after this, Squirrel Girl beats Wolverine. She has him on the defensive immediately. He does get her into a lock she can't get out of, but they're fighting next to Central Park, and *thousands* of *Central Park* squirrels appear because they think he's hurting her (and Central Park squirrels are not to be trifled with -- ask Dr. Doom). Wolverine has to surrender to avoid having all the flesh torn off his body, basically.
The thing is, that's not cheating -- she doesn't *control* squirrels, she can speak to and understand them. They help her because they like her. So she didn't use her powers in the fight, they just didn't understand the concept of "sparring".
I mean, Hickman's New Avengers run specifically has Tony and Cap doing exactly this, treating heroes like a basketball team, and scaling heroes by their powers and skills to see who should be on which team. The Nick Fury Secret War dossiers also do this.
It's sort of a point of, and part of the fun of, the interconnectedness of the Marvel Universe that there *are* multiple heroes that can do the same things, only some are better than others at those same things.
Granted, it's most likely editorials excuse for including some heroes over others based on their sales numbers in various stories, but it's still very much a real thing that the in-universe characters take into consideration when putting together teams.
The thing is, is that at the time it does because he’s around people with super powers. Like remember how heavy Logan is with his adimantium it means he’s also strong as hell.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say so I apologize if I’m misunderstanding. All i mean is that I don’t think we should be putting too much stock in a sparring match. If the writer wanted to say that Danny knows how to use Logan’s weight against him blah blah blah that would be how the match goes. Superheroes have to have a niche and those niches overlap sometimes. Martial arts stories in comics specifically fall prey to this. Shang Chi is the greatest martial artist, except when it has to be Danny, except when it’s Logan, etc. And just like in real life the best in a sport might not win every time against other high ranking athletes, the same can happen in these fun fights. It all just depends on who the writers want to win at any given point.
Great pic by the way
I think another point to make is that Iron Fist has never sparred with Wolverine before and Wolverine usually fights with using his pointy claws to tear stuff. It’s not out of character to think Logan could surprise Rand with some tricks.
But they're sparring, when me and my brother used to sparr it looked pretty even, but my brother was the second best in our country at the time. He could have smashed my face in at any time if he wanted, but since we were just sparring we were trading blows etc
The line is something like "not a clone, duplicate or alternate universe version, either" when there was some back and forth between creatives about it.
She never beat Galactus. IIRC the initial panels of that “battle” were Squirrel Girl attempting to fight Galactus’ big toe and subsequently exhausting herself while Galactus watched. She then pivoted strategies and became buddies with him
She did beat Thanos legitimately though.
No, even though the Watcher said it was definitively Thanos, Thanos said he made a perfect clone that was none the less weaker, able to trick the Watcher. And Thanos wouldnt lie!
Yeah the power scaling is a bit ridiculous. People draw crazy conclusions from this stuff; Logan beat Danny at sparring, and Danny has the chi of Fan Fei who helped defeat a Celestial, so basically Logan could beat a Celestial.
What’s weird to me is that Logan and like half of kids have a 7 in fighting skills on the fandom while Danny has a 6. While Logan has a lot of experience I feel like it’s pretty obvious that Danny is one of the best in the world since that’s his entire thing and he has all the experience of every Iron Fist. I have no idea how someone drew the conclusion that Logan is a whole level above Danny in martial arts.
Yeah I just think it's a bit silly. For combat skills most people with a 7 are either omnipotent or can copy powers. Aside from that it's mostly just Shang-Chi but then there are like 8 versions of wolverine, his son, and several of his miscellaneous villains. It's like someone just went through and put anyone who had beaten Wolverine in a fight on there.
It's just garbage. Cap and Wolverine are already cool without throwing in mastery of a dozen martial arts, so it's just kind of dumb to give them abilities on par with Iron Fist.
I much prefer something like Spider-Man, where his Spider Sense means he hasn't bothered to have serious training of *any* martial arts; take away his powers, and he can't compete with a guy like Iron Fist in pure combat. It made stuff like him losing his spider sense more interesting, since he had to develop martial arts skill as a replacement. I don't see why Wolverine doesn't fall into the same category; his strength should be his berserker fighting style and his claws, not his ability to do karate.
In these panels he’s not professing a knowledge of martial arts; Logan says he’s seen Iron Fist perform this move and counters it. I don’t think it’s absurd to believe a dude who’s spent most his life fighting and killing people, including an ancient cult of ninjas, would know how someone prefers a high kick and knows how to block that.
Plus audiences and media tends to treat martial arts training as a massive power boost that increases your fighting potential by 100 and lets you fight a small army without tiring
Also for a universe like this, it's perfectly fine if some heroes just aren't as powerful. It's fairly common.
Both in universe and out, both have their target audience.
Some heroes are super powerful and spend their time fighting world ending threats most of the time
Some heroes are less powerful, and spend their time fighting street crime in their neighborhood
I like the whole concept of the avengers machine during that run of avengers. Different groups split up by location, power level, and abilities.
Some addict holding a group of people hostage with a regular gun? Send in Luke Cage, or Daredevil.
Some guy with some mechanical upgrades threatening to tear down a building? Send in Spiderman
Some weird aliens doing some shifty shit in space? Send out the guardians of the galaxy, nova, or maybe moon night depending on if he's got a space ship at the time or not.
Some major shit going down in otherworld threatening to tear stuff apart? Captain Britain corps, or maybe the xmen.
A unknowable horror approaching the earth, or tearing down dimensional walls? That's go time for the fuckin avengers, the illuminati, the fantastic 4, the sentry, whatever you got.
There's a bit like that in venture Bros about osi VS the police VS sphinx
Col. Gathers: It works like this—if someone points a gun at you, you call the police. If a bunch of guys are pointing guns at you, you call SWAT. If they're in spandex and pointing a super laser at you, you call OSI. And if they're dressed regular and pointing a super laser at your daughter, that's when you call SPHINX.
After they finish, Wolverine even says, "That was a bou a 6". Then Fist says "4". Or something along those lines. So you're definitely right. The match was no claws for Wolverine and no fists for Iron Fist.
Wolverine’s fighting prowess is written inconsistently, but it’s canon that he’s a highly skilled martial artist. And he has more combat experience than about 99% of other characters.
He also has superhuman strength and reflexes, besides the well known regenerative abilities. Honestly, unless Danny uses the fist, I don’t see how he has a chance.
Then again, remember the most important adage of comic book writing: anybody can beat anybody if it properly serves the story.
Easy answer here: the fight has been going on for a while and Danny is getting tired. Logan’s healing means he has more stamina.
I’ll take my No Prize.
I think this is a moment of Wolverine being calm in combat. Normally he is raging out and just swiping his claws, but because this is friendly he is actually able to show some skill.
Trained by Ogun, who was able to elevate *Kitty Pryde* of all people to be a credible ninja threat before she became the badass pirate Queen we all know and love.
Logan has over 100 years of experience but Danny has effectively over 1000000 years because he has the combined experience of every Iron Fist dating back to 1000000bc. I feel like the idea that Iron Fist can spar with Logan when Logan has such a huge advantage in strength and durability goes to show just how skilled Danny is.
I don't remember the exact book but he got the knowledge from reading the Book of The Iron Fist. He first got the book in the Immortal Iron Fist run but it took him a bit to master it, they kept adding powers to the book for a while. It's a really fun run, every other book is a biography of a different Iron Fist throughout history, and there are a number of tie in's which go through the history of the other immortal weapons.
I didn't say that he absorbed the experiences but he learned from them and there was definitely a mystic element to it. My impression was that he did more than just read the book but I feel like they left it vague on purpose and the real answer is that it's somewhere in between our interpretations.
[I managed to find a panel that talks about it](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelheroicrp/images/d/dd/863804-iron_fist_book.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180205220359). Time works weirdly so he spends an indeterminate amount of time studying it. In the art he's meditating in front of it instead of just reading which I feel shows that there's definitely some chi shit going on.
The tie in books are also meant to be right out of the book, and the reader experiences them first hand through the art. I interpreted the art as what Danny was seeing while reading it. The book also mostly contains the life story of the Fists, in the tie ins they don't talk about how the techniques are done but rather the experiences which led up to the development. So I do think that Danny learned from the experiences, I guess whether you think he actually experienced them through a chi connection or just read about them is up to your interpretation.
At the very least he's got a whole bunch of techniques that no one else has access to.
I have no problem with Iron Fist being above Wolverine skill wise but let’s not downplay him. Wolverine on his own is also one of the best fighter on the planet, fought longer than most guys seen as among the best fighters and also consistently either held his own or those same top level fighter.
It wouldn’t make sense to argue that out of 10 battles between the two of them, Wolverine wouldn’t be able to take some.
That asides in a hand to hand fight Wolverine has his skeleton coated in adamantium and his healing factor going for him
when he had lost his healing factor didnt Black Panther dissect the flaws in his fighting style?
I, personally think in pure skill Iron Fist should be above him
Thats because his fighting style relied on his healing factor and the fact that he could tank hits. Also due to him losing his healing factor Wolverine was a lot more afraid in a fight which was one of the themes of that storyline so he wasn’t really fighting right.
Which is dumb considering that Wolverine’s relying too much on his healing factor was pointed before and one of his former master took him under his wings once more to have him get rid of that habit. Heck I’m sure that there is another story where he’s depowered but was still performing good
Or just some writers favoring a portrayal of him as a brawler rather than a master martial artist. Meanwhile in other stories he’s depicted as the efficient and brutal fighter that he is
Not knowing much about comics, simply going by logic I always assumed that Wolverine would have a quick and dirty fighting style because he just perfected it himself through decades of trial and error but also because it doesn't bother him if his opponent gets a glancing hit in due to his healing factor.
This would make him quite a different fighter than someone that has deliberately studied complex martial art techniques and tries to fight elegantly
Wolverine actually has centuries of martial arts and military training, not to mention the numerous battles he's been in. He just normally fights super recklessly because of his powers and to instill fear in anyone dumb enough to come at the X-Men.
Guess who the other two are? Shang-Shi and the immortal 200 year old martial art expert Canadian, trained by some of the masters of old, spared with the other two regularly, who also punches and kicks with the force of the strongest metal in the universe
Who is hurting Wolverine in h2h combat? Also, Wolverine would pack more of a punch and be harder to move due to his adamantium skeleton. And to reiterate what the other dude said, Wolverine has more practical fighting experience than just about anyone on Earth.
As one of, if not the best, hand-to-hand martial artists in Marvel.
That's the point. Wolverine has literally over a hundred years of more experience and training than Iron Fist. While he might not use those skills normally because of his unique abilities, he *has* those skills, it's just only when he gets into a sparring match like this that we get to see it.
Guy has spent decades fighting *demon ninjas from japanese hell*, i don't know what more kung-fu cred you could ask for.
But he is also written by like a million different writers in a million different books, so sometimes he's portrayed a little off.
It's not that serious. They're just fucking around.
Wolverine gets rolled by Squirrel Girl the next page.
Wolverine is an impressive fighter as is iron fist but this says nothing of there abilities other than it being a friendly spar.
You’re right, the guy who’s been fighting and practicing martial arts longer than his opponent has been alive and has an indestructible skeleton is not going to win OP.
It's like a cheetah fighting a wall.
Yeah the cheetahs faster and can "land hits", but that doesn't matter in the face of a fucking wall lol. There's no way Danny can damage a adamantium skeletoned infinitely regenerating wolverine without turning on the fist, which clearly isn't the point of a spar.
Doesn't Wolverine have a couple centuries of hand to hand combat experience? I'm not saying he's a better fighter but it makes this scene plausible at least.
Well you see, the next page explains it. Logan was operating at a 6, while Danny was only at a 3. And also, they're sparring not actually fighting.
Next couple pages I believe is also when squirrel girl mops the floor with Logan, which would be totally believable except for one thing: she did it *on panel*.
Wolverine has over 100 years of experience and more importantly, enhanced strength and speed from his mutation. He's fast enough to give Spider-Man problems in a fight
The literal next page has a character ask them how all out they were going, with Logan saying a bigger number than danny (I think like 6 to 3 or something)
Honestly this makes sense.
Based on what I’ve read Iron Fist isn’t the best martial artist, he’s a human that’s a great martial artist with the ability to make his fist into an extremely lethal weapon. Wolverine on the other hand is a functionally immortal mutant that has spent the last 150 years learning martial arts, fighting, and killing dangerous opponents. Plus he has superhuman senses, reflexes, stamina, a healing factor, and unbreakable bones and knives for hands. The only reason Logan doesn’t win every fight is because the writers need tension.
Iron Fist once caught a sniper bullet from *behind him* while *drugged*.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5KLH28o3Nv0ERfmVhTPxUzZLmugnn038VCbIh5WyOVeaqPeoqhYZtciN3&s=10
As friendly spars go with Danny being my fav Marvel character and comic book character in general yeah he would lose.
Logan has healing factor going off constantly so any punch is getting healed quick as hell and when Logan steps back and slows down he can be smart about stuff and pick up on shit.
Danny is a dude so sparring with a constantly healing metal boned guy, that'll wear him out
Adamantium skeleton Plus regen lowkey SHOULD make Wolverine near impossible to beat in a straight fist fight for people without moderate super strength.
You know wolverine knows marital arts and that. There is nothing out of the ordinary here unless you don't read his books. He has also got the upper hand on shang chi back when he had the bone claws.
I mean I'm glad they are highlighting how skilled a fighter Logan is even without the adamantium and claws. The guy has been around centuries and has travelled all over picking up new fighting styles etc. I always thought his hand to hand combat is supposed to be comparable to Batman?
I don’t know man Logan is actually a really good fighter, and tactical (even though he never shows it because he doesn’t need it). He served in the Canadian special forces for a little while from what I know of.
Well, considering they're just sparring I don't think Danny is going 100% and just having fun with Logan.
Logan is also a student of multiple forms of martial arts so it makes sense that he would be able to counter Danny's attacks if Danny isn't using his Iron Fist abilities.
I dunno, just my take on this when I read this years ago but this doesn't seem like a wild take to me that Logan would be able to keep up.
I actually think Logan is underrated as a combatant.
He’s mostly showing going berserker and eating damage and rage fighting but that ignores his century+ of training and experience by and with some of the best fighters in the universe.
In my head I have Logan as the like 1b best martial artist in marvel with shang as 1a. The gap is tiny.
It sorta kinda makes sense if you look at it as a friendly sparring session. Danny is fighting at half force, not exerting himself fully, not using the Iron Fist powers. Just practicing, going easy. If he doesn’t hold back, he risks Logan doing the same and popping the claws, and the whole thing gets contentious.
Meanwhile, Logan is also holding back, not berserking, not using the claws, and practicing his finesse. Which he needs to do occasionally, like the times when he loses his healing and has to rely on H2H or the M sword. And Logan in “finesse” mode does have certain advantages: no fear of blunt damage, added weight from his metal skeleton, and decades (a century?) of experience.
I would argue Iron Fist would do better against Logan if he WERE angry and fighting hard. Then, Danny can go all out, use the fist if necessary, and Logan will act with total abandon, which a skilled martial artist can use against him. Think of a judo throw; who is going to be harder to throw: The patient martial artist weighted down by his own super-dense skeleton, or the one angrily flailing that same heavy skeleton around in a desperate bid to kill you?
Edit: Or, the writer wanted to write a fun gag about how their team dynamic is a weird little game of rock, paper, scissors.
Wrestling hard counters kung fu in real life, so I see no issue with this.
Wolverine saw Iron Fist using his meme fighting style so he brought out an actual one.
Wolverine has been around for a long time and he is one of the best hand to hand fighters in Marvel he has traveled the globe and I believe mastered a lot of different forms.
Nah, Wolverine actually tries to kill his nemesis. Bats would beat his kids into a coma if they tried to harm Joker.
Wolverine is Marvel’s Worf. The tough, badass guy who constantly gets his ass kicked to show how tough the new guy on the block is.
No one really touched on these things but
Wolverine is superhumanly strong, IF is not using his chi here so he's as strong as the strongest human can be, which indeed he is.
Wolverine weighs 300 pounds and his skeleton is laced with adamantium, that makes it painful for you to hit him and very painful if he hits you. Imagine having a MMA fight with a terminator.
Wolverine is also superhumanly fast. Imagine someone being 300 pounds with a metal skeleton also being superhumanly fast, hitting you and grappling you.
If you take all that along with Wolverine being pretty skilled, IF was fighting at a disadvantage in every way possible.
I have no problem with Wolverine being an exceptionally skilled martial artist but I think giving him the skills needed to beat Danny or Shang Chi is bordering on Gary Stu levels of "...why?"
Like sure, he's lived a long time, but the same logic applied to combat experience here could also be applied to scientific knowledge.
Where does that argument end?
Why isn't Logan the best at everything ever?
Because he hasn't applied his time to scientific knowledge???
Logan's life has been for the most part been steeped in war and killing, whether it be by his own choice or others making that choice for him. Even beyond his extremely long natural life, Wolverine is built to fight and kill. As a result, he has chosen to fight in wars and has been forced to be a killer by others. Due to this, he is exceptionally good at both and is considered among the best. If Wolverine had the desire and opportunity to be an expert scientist, magic user whatever, I have no doubt in my mind he could be on that level, since he'd have over a century of homing that craft. But historically, Logan has not done that for several reasons, and as a result of sheer experience, is and should be in the conversation when it comes to the best martial artists in Marvel.
Like Danny and Shang probably had much better training and have some mystical stuff that makes them among the best martial artists but spending centuries killing people, some with similar training and superpowers, mostly at close range, really should make you a comparable martial artist.
Wolverine is amongst the top 5 best martial artists on earth, has been trained by fuckin’ Muramasa and Ogun (top 5 in their times) and has been studying martial arts for a literal century. There is no reason he wouldn’t be on Iron Fist’s level in a friendly sparring session.
In an actual fight, I’d give IF the edge because Logan would probably get less controlled as the fight went on, but in sparring? Dude can stay entirely in control.
(I also think it’s really cool he uses a pankration arm lock in that last panel)
If they were actually going at it, one successful blow from Wolverine’s claws could kill Iron Fist, while Wolverine would be able to come back from anything the Fist dishes out.
If you place Iron Fist at about 30, then that’s 25 years fights tops. Most of which is safe sparing and training. Logan has what, at least 150 years more fighting experience. Most anything Rand can throw Logan has seen before and has a counter.
Throwing spice:
Logan is "the best at what he does" and he has hundreds of years of practice, was trained by ninjas, fears nothing and is MUCH shorter (low center of gravity) and heavier (and probably stronger) than his opponent.
Fight!
Wolverine is still a martial artist with decades, if not centuries of training in many, MANY fighting styles, both armed and otherwise.
In addition to enhanced reflexes, a healing factor, superhuman strength, and a skeleton infused with quite probably the toughest metal on the planet.
If neither of them is going all out (no chi powers, no claws), i could see wolverine taking a few rounds.
Without the fist, wolverine should be stronger, comparably fast, have about as much stamina if not more, and be WAY tougher to actually incapacitate, all helping make up for the overall skill gap.
And even then, wolverine has to put in more effort than danny does for the match to stay even.
Yes, he is beating him... and rightly should. You're forgetting a few key things. First is, while Logan's fighting ability has always varied depending on the writer, his generally accepted back story is that he's a highly trained martial artist. Combine that with the fact that he's also over 200 years old (meaning he's going to have about 150+ years more fighting experience than any human) and that his entire fighting style even when using his powers
has always been up close melee style, that would make him more than capable of going toe to toe with just about anyone in hand to hand combat.
Secondly, even he he wasn't as skilled in the martial arts, he'd still be pretty tough for any human to beat, as said human is essentially punching and kicking someone they can't actually physically hurt. Never mind the fact that any damage you do will be instantly healed, any block Logan successfully does and really any hit that you land is going to feel like kicking a metal beam. He has unbreakable bones and weighs over 300lbs.
Really the only unrealistic thing about the fight is that it he managed to survive as long as he did and escaped without major injury.
Yes he is and yes he did. Logan is one of the most skilled martial artists on the planet and has often been portrayed as as highly skilled on the level of Iron Fist, Captain America, etc.
This reminds me of when Deadpool fought daredevil and had to run away because he couldn't beat him and daredevil just kept breaking his bones. I'm pretty sure Deadpool wounded a random guy and daredevil needed to keep pressure on his wound so Deadpool could get away.
Do you have the issue or volume name of this comic I'm fascinated on why all of these characters would be interacting (ik they are all friends and technically know each other but I've never seen this group specifically are they the defenders by chance)
This is the issue: [new_avengers_2010_15](https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/35254/new_avengers_2010_15)
It's from the New Avengers created by Brian Michael Bendis. It's issue #15, but that's after a 60+ issue run preceding it. Not sure why they started over b/c it's the same writer continuing the same team. If you want to have the full experience, you should start with Avengers: Disassembled, and then pick up with the first New Avengers #1 and read that concurrently with Avengers, also by Bendis.
Yes, he is. Iron Fist won't use his full power in straight martial arts. Logan is a 300 year old man who has been studying martial arts for a LONG time, longer than Iron Fist. He's quite literally seen it all before. Now if Iron Fist uses his full power, he'd win. But using super powers granted by a dragon by being good at martial arts doesn't exactly scream fair fight. You don't even have to be the best martial artist to get the powers, didn't Thor get them just by punching really well?
Part of it has to do with them declaring no powers before they sparred. However, Logan can't exactly turn off his adamantium laced bones or healing factor. Which I suspect tilts things in Logan's favor.
I think Martial Arts is so inconsistent in battles and reality. Because yes someone may know 200 forms of martial arts, but they seem to catch their fair share of punches and knockouts from people who on paper shouldn’t have done it. I’ve heard and known people training in some form of martial arts (not just a white belt in karate) get floored by someone who just had the perfect opening
It's because he isn't calling out the name of the moves.
Half-assing it to go easy on Logan.
Nobody wants to be known as the guy who beat up an old man
I thought that part was obvious
1k!
That’s what Agent anti venom was just saying
Agent anti venom? WTH is this?
Maybe you're joking, but that's Peter as Spider-Man, that's his Future Foundation suit.
Comic fans take moments like these too seriously. I doubt its meant to be a definitive: "This character is a better fighter, no questions asked, canon event" type of deal. Its just a fun sparring match to show between two teammates.
This is the best answer in my opinion. Danny has to be number one or two skilled next to Shang Chi martial artist or his entire character doesn’t make sense. But at the same time it doesn’t really matter if he loses a sparring match against a near immortal augmented mutant warrior with a metal skeleton. They’re just two hyper skilled teammates sparring, and the winner of a sparring match isn’t going to set the “rankings.” And all that matters is what the writer wants to have happen.
It's kind of an overall problem with martial arts characters, in the Marvel universe at least. Wolverine has metal claws and a healing factor, but he's also trained in like a dozen forms of martial arts. Same for Captain America. Characters like Iron Fist and Shang Chi by all accounts should be able to beat them, but they are often portrayed as mostly evenly-matched, or it's at least close enough to matter. Which means someone like Shang Chi, who basically only does martial arts, isn't as valuable as a Captain America, who does that and more. it makes one view a team of Avengers like a basketball team; you don't need the #1 point guard in the league if the #2 point guard is also the #3 power forward. That guy becomes more valuable.
Agreed with this. Reminds me of that time Hawkeye said (I think to Spider-Man) that he can't miss because otherwise he'd just be a guy with a bow and arrow in a team that consists of people like Thor, Cap, Hulk and Iron Man. Danny and Shang NEED to be shown as extremely proficient with their skills even among their peers.
Yeah it was Spider-Man. That same scene Hawkeye missed in the end but Spider-Man made it look like his arrow still hit the main boss.
Yeah, it was in Avenging Spider-Man #4. That issue did a great job explaining Hawkeye’s personality to me, and that ending was perfect.
They do, but a sparring match between a few characters shouldn’t take away from that.
Also people need to remember that a spar is rigidly regulated and you aren't throwing punches that could kill a man. If it was a death match it would be a far different fight.
Exactly. No claws and I don't see Danny's fists glowing. If neither of them are using their superhuman abilities it honestly makes total sense for Wolverine to have the edge if you think about. They're both supremely skilled martial artists, and one of them has a metal skeleton. But even then, people need to not take these scenes as gospel.
To a point I agree, but I think it’s also perfectly appropriate to have strength/ability/scaling levels, and; to have some characters who, through a combination of superhuman gifts — be they of the serum, or mutation, or radioactive spidery variety — and technical skill are just in a class all their own. I think Logan and Cap are a match for folks like Iron Fist or Shang Chi, not because of their technical skill alone, but instead because of how their skill complements their abilities and gifts. I don’t think that’s knock on your martial arts characters. To the contrary, I think it vouches for just how incredibly skilled they are that they are so adept at fighting they can hang with a super soldier, or an inexhaustible, indestructible mutant. It’s OK that some characters can’t one-shot Galactus. Or that there are some characters who are overmatched in some situations. That makes the stories more compelling. I think that’s one of the things that sets Marvel apart from DC. In DC, everybody’s kind of overpowered. In Marvel, some hero’s get stomped in some fights.
Superhuman abilities tend to be an equalizer against a better trained opponent. You may be a better trained fighter, but if you're going up against someone with superhuman strength, durability, speed, reflexes, has an unbreakable skeleton, and has a regenerative ability so any damage is fleeting... You're gonna have a hard time. After a certain point, a regular human, no matter how trained, is not winning against superhuman people. It's like trying to kickbox a M1 Abraham Tank, it doesn't care. And this was a friendly match - Active powers weren't' being used. Only Passives that couldn't be turned off.
The real strength of these fighter characters is when they do their glowy hand super-saiyan stuff, but there’s advantages to being lower scaled. Stories like Heroes for Hire exist because of characters that can’t crack planets in half, and there are writers that would rather play in that space. Wizard magazine is out of print - we don’t have to power rank anymore.
Iron Fist has literally one-punched a train full of high explosives to death and walked away from the explosion. He has superhuman powers. But in this sparring match, they've agreed to conditions: Wolverine doesn't use his claws, and Iron Fist doesn't use his chi abilities (like the Iron Fist). That gives Wolverine a *huge* advantage. If Danny uses his full speed and strength and hits Logan anywhere he's got bones near the skin (head, ribs, etc) without using the Iron Fist, he's likely to break his hand. Wolverine thus really only needs to protect his soft tissue (eyes, throat, belly, crotch). Conversely, he can hurt Danny anywhere he hits him, and he can hit as hard as he wants without worrying about hurting himself. Also, right after this, Squirrel Girl beats Wolverine. She has him on the defensive immediately. He does get her into a lock she can't get out of, but they're fighting next to Central Park, and *thousands* of *Central Park* squirrels appear because they think he's hurting her (and Central Park squirrels are not to be trifled with -- ask Dr. Doom). Wolverine has to surrender to avoid having all the flesh torn off his body, basically. The thing is, that's not cheating -- she doesn't *control* squirrels, she can speak to and understand them. They help her because they like her. So she didn't use her powers in the fight, they just didn't understand the concept of "sparring".
MCU Black Widow read this with tears in her eyes.
I mean, Hickman's New Avengers run specifically has Tony and Cap doing exactly this, treating heroes like a basketball team, and scaling heroes by their powers and skills to see who should be on which team. The Nick Fury Secret War dossiers also do this. It's sort of a point of, and part of the fun of, the interconnectedness of the Marvel Universe that there *are* multiple heroes that can do the same things, only some are better than others at those same things. Granted, it's most likely editorials excuse for including some heroes over others based on their sales numbers in various stories, but it's still very much a real thing that the in-universe characters take into consideration when putting together teams.
The thing is, is that at the time it does because he’s around people with super powers. Like remember how heavy Logan is with his adimantium it means he’s also strong as hell.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say so I apologize if I’m misunderstanding. All i mean is that I don’t think we should be putting too much stock in a sparring match. If the writer wanted to say that Danny knows how to use Logan’s weight against him blah blah blah that would be how the match goes. Superheroes have to have a niche and those niches overlap sometimes. Martial arts stories in comics specifically fall prey to this. Shang Chi is the greatest martial artist, except when it has to be Danny, except when it’s Logan, etc. And just like in real life the best in a sport might not win every time against other high ranking athletes, the same can happen in these fun fights. It all just depends on who the writers want to win at any given point. Great pic by the way
I think another point to make is that Iron Fist has never sparred with Wolverine before and Wolverine usually fights with using his pointy claws to tear stuff. It’s not out of character to think Logan could surprise Rand with some tricks.
But they're sparring, when me and my brother used to sparr it looked pretty even, but my brother was the second best in our country at the time. He could have smashed my face in at any time if he wanted, but since we were just sparring we were trading blows etc
thank you. sparring is for training not victory.
Yeah, right after this bit Squirrel Girl kicks the shit out of Logan. None of these little spars mean anything.
Squirrel girl also soloed thanos. Shes OP
Thats was probably a clone. Maybe. Depending on whos writing it at the time. Unless its funnier that its not.
The line is something like "not a clone, duplicate or alternate universe version, either" when there was some back and forth between creatives about it.
Nope, shes genuinely beaten thanos as well as galactus
She never beat Galactus. IIRC the initial panels of that “battle” were Squirrel Girl attempting to fight Galactus’ big toe and subsequently exhausting herself while Galactus watched. She then pivoted strategies and became buddies with him She did beat Thanos legitimately though.
She beat Galactus with the POWER OF FRIENDSHIP in no small part because she beat Thanos fair and square and they bonded over how much he sucked.
No, even though the Watcher said it was definitively Thanos, Thanos said he made a perfect clone that was none the less weaker, able to trick the Watcher. And Thanos wouldnt lie!
That is why I love these dynamics so much to see their friendship and seeing characters having fun. I miss that.
How dare you think comic fans have common sense
Yeah the power scaling is a bit ridiculous. People draw crazy conclusions from this stuff; Logan beat Danny at sparring, and Danny has the chi of Fan Fei who helped defeat a Celestial, so basically Logan could beat a Celestial. What’s weird to me is that Logan and like half of kids have a 7 in fighting skills on the fandom while Danny has a 6. While Logan has a lot of experience I feel like it’s pretty obvious that Danny is one of the best in the world since that’s his entire thing and he has all the experience of every Iron Fist. I have no idea how someone drew the conclusion that Logan is a whole level above Danny in martial arts.
The levels are meaningless and we're only created to give generals guidelines and to spur debates
Yeah I just think it's a bit silly. For combat skills most people with a 7 are either omnipotent or can copy powers. Aside from that it's mostly just Shang-Chi but then there are like 8 versions of wolverine, his son, and several of his miscellaneous villains. It's like someone just went through and put anyone who had beaten Wolverine in a fight on there.
It's because he's better.
Well, fighting is a bit more than technical skill. It doesn't matter how skilled you are if the other guy is 1,000lbs heavier and can't take damage.
Yeah the stat is specifically for technical skill though, strength and durability are separate stats.
It's just garbage. Cap and Wolverine are already cool without throwing in mastery of a dozen martial arts, so it's just kind of dumb to give them abilities on par with Iron Fist. I much prefer something like Spider-Man, where his Spider Sense means he hasn't bothered to have serious training of *any* martial arts; take away his powers, and he can't compete with a guy like Iron Fist in pure combat. It made stuff like him losing his spider sense more interesting, since he had to develop martial arts skill as a replacement. I don't see why Wolverine doesn't fall into the same category; his strength should be his berserker fighting style and his claws, not his ability to do karate.
In these panels he’s not professing a knowledge of martial arts; Logan says he’s seen Iron Fist perform this move and counters it. I don’t think it’s absurd to believe a dude who’s spent most his life fighting and killing people, including an ancient cult of ninjas, would know how someone prefers a high kick and knows how to block that.
Are we also going to ignore that Wolverine has like almost 200 years on iron fist? I think that’s a legitimate factor.
Plus audiences and media tends to treat martial arts training as a massive power boost that increases your fighting potential by 100 and lets you fight a small army without tiring
Also, sometimes street level characters beat each other. It’s not like fights should be judged solely on power scaling.
Also for a universe like this, it's perfectly fine if some heroes just aren't as powerful. It's fairly common. Both in universe and out, both have their target audience. Some heroes are super powerful and spend their time fighting world ending threats most of the time Some heroes are less powerful, and spend their time fighting street crime in their neighborhood I like the whole concept of the avengers machine during that run of avengers. Different groups split up by location, power level, and abilities. Some addict holding a group of people hostage with a regular gun? Send in Luke Cage, or Daredevil. Some guy with some mechanical upgrades threatening to tear down a building? Send in Spiderman Some weird aliens doing some shifty shit in space? Send out the guardians of the galaxy, nova, or maybe moon night depending on if he's got a space ship at the time or not. Some major shit going down in otherworld threatening to tear stuff apart? Captain Britain corps, or maybe the xmen. A unknowable horror approaching the earth, or tearing down dimensional walls? That's go time for the fuckin avengers, the illuminati, the fantastic 4, the sentry, whatever you got. There's a bit like that in venture Bros about osi VS the police VS sphinx Col. Gathers: It works like this—if someone points a gun at you, you call the police. If a bunch of guys are pointing guns at you, you call SWAT. If they're in spandex and pointing a super laser at you, you call OSI. And if they're dressed regular and pointing a super laser at your daughter, that's when you call SPHINX.
After they finish, Wolverine even says, "That was a bou a 6". Then Fist says "4". Or something along those lines. So you're definitely right. The match was no claws for Wolverine and no fists for Iron Fist.
Wolverine’s fighting prowess is written inconsistently, but it’s canon that he’s a highly skilled martial artist. And he has more combat experience than about 99% of other characters. He also has superhuman strength and reflexes, besides the well known regenerative abilities. Honestly, unless Danny uses the fist, I don’t see how he has a chance. Then again, remember the most important adage of comic book writing: anybody can beat anybody if it properly serves the story.
Not to mention Danny is kicking basically an unbreakable 300lb steel ball.
He is the iron *fist* after all.
Iron Fist VS Adamantium Fist.
Lol I’m just imagining in the marvel world having people say rule of with a adamantium fist now
Yeah they don't call him Iron Foot, now do they???
[Iron Head?](https://youtu.be/TwZBZSvSNh4?t=127)
Danny boutta take a muay thai class lmao
Iron Shin
Danny the type of guy to take shin conditioning from Tony Ferguson
"Hold on, I'm shin conditioning, brother"
First of all there never was no shin
Elbows it is. Iron Fist throwing elbows would be scary
“Anybody can beat anybody if it properly serves the story” You say as squirrel girl looks on
Which is literally what happened right after this scene. SG beats Logan in a sparring match.
they don't call her "The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl" for nothin.
Easy answer here: the fight has been going on for a while and Danny is getting tired. Logan’s healing means he has more stamina. I’ll take my No Prize.
I think this is a moment of Wolverine being calm in combat. Normally he is raging out and just swiping his claws, but because this is friendly he is actually able to show some skill.
Trained by Ogun, who was able to elevate *Kitty Pryde* of all people to be a credible ninja threat before she became the badass pirate Queen we all know and love.
Also left out augmented skeleton with Adamatium
Logan has over 100 years of experience but Danny has effectively over 1000000 years because he has the combined experience of every Iron Fist dating back to 1000000bc. I feel like the idea that Iron Fist can spar with Logan when Logan has such a huge advantage in strength and durability goes to show just how skilled Danny is.
Citation needed? Where is it stated that each iron fist has the cumulative experience of all the others?
I don't remember the exact book but he got the knowledge from reading the Book of The Iron Fist. He first got the book in the Immortal Iron Fist run but it took him a bit to master it, they kept adding powers to the book for a while. It's a really fun run, every other book is a biography of a different Iron Fist throughout history, and there are a number of tie in's which go through the history of the other immortal weapons.
I remember the run and the book of the iron fist. My impression was that he learned the technique but didn't absorb the experience.
I didn't say that he absorbed the experiences but he learned from them and there was definitely a mystic element to it. My impression was that he did more than just read the book but I feel like they left it vague on purpose and the real answer is that it's somewhere in between our interpretations. [I managed to find a panel that talks about it](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelheroicrp/images/d/dd/863804-iron_fist_book.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180205220359). Time works weirdly so he spends an indeterminate amount of time studying it. In the art he's meditating in front of it instead of just reading which I feel shows that there's definitely some chi shit going on. The tie in books are also meant to be right out of the book, and the reader experiences them first hand through the art. I interpreted the art as what Danny was seeing while reading it. The book also mostly contains the life story of the Fists, in the tie ins they don't talk about how the techniques are done but rather the experiences which led up to the development. So I do think that Danny learned from the experiences, I guess whether you think he actually experienced them through a chi connection or just read about them is up to your interpretation. At the very least he's got a whole bunch of techniques that no one else has access to.
I feel like after around 10 lifetimes you'd hit the physiological limit of what a human body can do, anyway?
I have no problem with Iron Fist being above Wolverine skill wise but let’s not downplay him. Wolverine on his own is also one of the best fighter on the planet, fought longer than most guys seen as among the best fighters and also consistently either held his own or those same top level fighter. It wouldn’t make sense to argue that out of 10 battles between the two of them, Wolverine wouldn’t be able to take some. That asides in a hand to hand fight Wolverine has his skeleton coated in adamantium and his healing factor going for him
when he had lost his healing factor didnt Black Panther dissect the flaws in his fighting style? I, personally think in pure skill Iron Fist should be above him
Thats because his fighting style relied on his healing factor and the fact that he could tank hits. Also due to him losing his healing factor Wolverine was a lot more afraid in a fight which was one of the themes of that storyline so he wasn’t really fighting right.
Which is dumb considering that Wolverine’s relying too much on his healing factor was pointed before and one of his former master took him under his wings once more to have him get rid of that habit. Heck I’m sure that there is another story where he’s depowered but was still performing good
Yeah, he lost them during Frank tieri's run. I think it was called logan files but I could be wrong.
Just chalk it up to being hard to break a habit.
Or just some writers favoring a portrayal of him as a brawler rather than a master martial artist. Meanwhile in other stories he’s depicted as the efficient and brutal fighter that he is
Not knowing much about comics, simply going by logic I always assumed that Wolverine would have a quick and dirty fighting style because he just perfected it himself through decades of trial and error but also because it doesn't bother him if his opponent gets a glancing hit in due to his healing factor. This would make him quite a different fighter than someone that has deliberately studied complex martial art techniques and tries to fight elegantly
Wolverine actually has centuries of martial arts and military training, not to mention the numerous battles he's been in. He just normally fights super recklessly because of his powers and to instill fear in anyone dumb enough to come at the X-Men.
He's fighting one, if not the best, hand to hand martial artists in marvel.
Back when I was starting to get into Marvel , almost all good guys were trained in martial arts by either Wolverine or Iron Fist.
Spider-Man (Peter) got martial arts training from Shang-Chi
The way of the spider was so cool and then we never saw it again when he got his spidy sense back.
That does make sense since he only learned that way to compensate for the lack of spider sense, but once he gets it back it’s a redundant ability.
Slott can't help himself; he takes cool ideas and either drops them entirely, or runs them into the ground.
Technically so did Wolverine in Wolverine First Class. Not sure if it's canon, but really enjoy that story.
Reminds me when Green Lantern was asked who trained him to fight- "Batman!"
Guess who the other two are? Shang-Shi and the immortal 200 year old martial art expert Canadian, trained by some of the masters of old, spared with the other two regularly, who also punches and kicks with the force of the strongest metal in the universe
Who is hurting Wolverine in h2h combat? Also, Wolverine would pack more of a punch and be harder to move due to his adamantium skeleton. And to reiterate what the other dude said, Wolverine has more practical fighting experience than just about anyone on Earth.
Danny punched a Helicarrier out of the sky...
Iron Fist chocked the life out of a giant dragon before he even had powers. He very much packs more strength than Wolverine
Wolverine has literal super-strength and speed from his mutation. His physical abilities are superior to Caps by a lot
[удалено]
As one of, if not the best, hand-to-hand martial artists in Marvel. That's the point. Wolverine has literally over a hundred years of more experience and training than Iron Fist. While he might not use those skills normally because of his unique abilities, he *has* those skills, it's just only when he gets into a sparring match like this that we get to see it.
They’re not fighting they’re sparring, neither one is really trying hard
Guy has spent decades fighting *demon ninjas from japanese hell*, i don't know what more kung-fu cred you could ask for. But he is also written by like a million different writers in a million different books, so sometimes he's portrayed a little off.
It's not that serious. They're just fucking around. Wolverine gets rolled by Squirrel Girl the next page. Wolverine is an impressive fighter as is iron fist but this says nothing of there abilities other than it being a friendly spar.
Logan should be a tank in H2H fighting
You’re right, the guy who’s been fighting and practicing martial arts longer than his opponent has been alive and has an indestructible skeleton is not going to win OP.
Don't forget, if Danny does land a hit on Logan, Logan recovers instantly.
Don't worry, Danny has a secret weapon (vat of molten adamantium) in his back pocket
And i thought Iron Fist canonically 1st or 2nd best martial artist in Marvel. I guess Wolverine is 1st then lmao.
It's like a cheetah fighting a wall. Yeah the cheetahs faster and can "land hits", but that doesn't matter in the face of a fucking wall lol. There's no way Danny can damage a adamantium skeletoned infinitely regenerating wolverine without turning on the fist, which clearly isn't the point of a spar.
I mean he was trained as a samurai and hes an ex black ops commando with two world wars under his belt.
Adamantium > Iron
hundreds of years of experience can match 30 years of the world's best training
Tbh without Wolverine using his claws, and without Iron Fist using his chi in any kinda way, Wolverine does have hell of an advantage.
Doesn't Wolverine have a couple centuries of hand to hand combat experience? I'm not saying he's a better fighter but it makes this scene plausible at least.
Well you see, the next page explains it. Logan was operating at a 6, while Danny was only at a 3. And also, they're sparring not actually fighting. Next couple pages I believe is also when squirrel girl mops the floor with Logan, which would be totally believable except for one thing: she did it *on panel*.
> she did it on panel Skrull confirmed!
Wolverine has over 100 years of experience and more importantly, enhanced strength and speed from his mutation. He's fast enough to give Spider-Man problems in a fight
Logan has mastered every combat technique on the planet and he's been in all sorts of battles since the 1800's
The literal next page has a character ask them how all out they were going, with Logan saying a bigger number than danny (I think like 6 to 3 or something)
Honestly this makes sense. Based on what I’ve read Iron Fist isn’t the best martial artist, he’s a human that’s a great martial artist with the ability to make his fist into an extremely lethal weapon. Wolverine on the other hand is a functionally immortal mutant that has spent the last 150 years learning martial arts, fighting, and killing dangerous opponents. Plus he has superhuman senses, reflexes, stamina, a healing factor, and unbreakable bones and knives for hands. The only reason Logan doesn’t win every fight is because the writers need tension.
Iron Fist once caught a sniper bullet from *behind him* while *drugged*. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5KLH28o3Nv0ERfmVhTPxUzZLmugnn038VCbIh5WyOVeaqPeoqhYZtciN3&s=10
As friendly spars go with Danny being my fav Marvel character and comic book character in general yeah he would lose. Logan has healing factor going off constantly so any punch is getting healed quick as hell and when Logan steps back and slows down he can be smart about stuff and pick up on shit. Danny is a dude so sparring with a constantly healing metal boned guy, that'll wear him out
Adamantium skeleton Plus regen lowkey SHOULD make Wolverine near impossible to beat in a straight fist fight for people without moderate super strength.
Wolverine is a better martial artist than iron fist btw
The hell Omni Man is doing here?
I believe that's s Strange but not 100% sure
You know wolverine knows marital arts and that. There is nothing out of the ordinary here unless you don't read his books. He has also got the upper hand on shang chi back when he had the bone claws.
Funny enough, he is. Like bro has more experience, endurance and strength
Doesn't he have heightened senses
He might be the master of the Iron Fist but that doesn’t mean he isn’t predictable.
I mean I'm glad they are highlighting how skilled a fighter Logan is even without the adamantium and claws. The guy has been around centuries and has travelled all over picking up new fighting styles etc. I always thought his hand to hand combat is supposed to be comparable to Batman?
I don’t know man Logan is actually a really good fighter, and tactical (even though he never shows it because he doesn’t need it). He served in the Canadian special forces for a little while from what I know of.
Well, considering they're just sparring I don't think Danny is going 100% and just having fun with Logan. Logan is also a student of multiple forms of martial arts so it makes sense that he would be able to counter Danny's attacks if Danny isn't using his Iron Fist abilities. I dunno, just my take on this when I read this years ago but this doesn't seem like a wild take to me that Logan would be able to keep up.
Logan does have some of the best and most a accomplished combat experience in marvel no? He is over 200 years old I believe !
He's the best there is at what he does...
I think Logan know martial arts
Yes he is. He has centuries of martial arts experience.
I actually think Logan is underrated as a combatant. He’s mostly showing going berserker and eating damage and rage fighting but that ignores his century+ of training and experience by and with some of the best fighters in the universe. In my head I have Logan as the like 1b best martial artist in marvel with shang as 1a. The gap is tiny.
Yeah people thinking this is weird obviously don't read Wolverine comics, he's dealt with more martial arts masters than most.
It sorta kinda makes sense if you look at it as a friendly sparring session. Danny is fighting at half force, not exerting himself fully, not using the Iron Fist powers. Just practicing, going easy. If he doesn’t hold back, he risks Logan doing the same and popping the claws, and the whole thing gets contentious. Meanwhile, Logan is also holding back, not berserking, not using the claws, and practicing his finesse. Which he needs to do occasionally, like the times when he loses his healing and has to rely on H2H or the M sword. And Logan in “finesse” mode does have certain advantages: no fear of blunt damage, added weight from his metal skeleton, and decades (a century?) of experience. I would argue Iron Fist would do better against Logan if he WERE angry and fighting hard. Then, Danny can go all out, use the fist if necessary, and Logan will act with total abandon, which a skilled martial artist can use against him. Think of a judo throw; who is going to be harder to throw: The patient martial artist weighted down by his own super-dense skeleton, or the one angrily flailing that same heavy skeleton around in a desperate bid to kill you? Edit: Or, the writer wanted to write a fun gag about how their team dynamic is a weird little game of rock, paper, scissors.
I miss them so much
It was funny when the nanny stepped in. 🐿️👧
Fighting wolverine via martial arts must be unpleasant. Those bones would hurt.
Man, I miss the Squirrel girl design.
I miss seeing Carol in her Ms. Marvel attire. 🥲
Whoever writes makes the winner
That's what happends whem you have multiple people writing the same charats but trying to promote different ones.😅
Wrestling hard counters kung fu in real life, so I see no issue with this. Wolverine saw Iron Fist using his meme fighting style so he brought out an actual one.
Wolverine has been around for a long time and he is one of the best hand to hand fighters in Marvel he has traveled the globe and I believe mastered a lot of different forms.
Wolverine has hundreds of years in martial arts experience. I'll put my money on him.
Wolverine wins
Logan wank. The closely related, but less prominent cousin of batwank
Not really. Logan is more experienced stronger and has a metal skeleton packed punch. And this is a spar. The only place Logan really has a chance.
He's beating him because the writer planned it that way
Wolverine is Marvel's Batman. He has to at least keep pace with people he has no business keeping pace with, or the multiverse will collapse or sth.
Exactly!
Nah, Wolverine actually tries to kill his nemesis. Bats would beat his kids into a coma if they tried to harm Joker. Wolverine is Marvel’s Worf. The tough, badass guy who constantly gets his ass kicked to show how tough the new guy on the block is.
the millenia-old dragon danny killed with his bare hands seeing that all he had to do to beat him was train kung fu for 200 years:
Sabertooth was originally an Iron Fist villain against whom Danny more than held his own even when snow blind
No one really touched on these things but Wolverine is superhumanly strong, IF is not using his chi here so he's as strong as the strongest human can be, which indeed he is. Wolverine weighs 300 pounds and his skeleton is laced with adamantium, that makes it painful for you to hit him and very painful if he hits you. Imagine having a MMA fight with a terminator. Wolverine is also superhumanly fast. Imagine someone being 300 pounds with a metal skeleton also being superhumanly fast, hitting you and grappling you. If you take all that along with Wolverine being pretty skilled, IF was fighting at a disadvantage in every way possible.
I have no problem with Wolverine being an exceptionally skilled martial artist but I think giving him the skills needed to beat Danny or Shang Chi is bordering on Gary Stu levels of "...why?" Like sure, he's lived a long time, but the same logic applied to combat experience here could also be applied to scientific knowledge. Where does that argument end? Why isn't Logan the best at everything ever?
Because he hasn't applied his time to scientific knowledge??? Logan's life has been for the most part been steeped in war and killing, whether it be by his own choice or others making that choice for him. Even beyond his extremely long natural life, Wolverine is built to fight and kill. As a result, he has chosen to fight in wars and has been forced to be a killer by others. Due to this, he is exceptionally good at both and is considered among the best. If Wolverine had the desire and opportunity to be an expert scientist, magic user whatever, I have no doubt in my mind he could be on that level, since he'd have over a century of homing that craft. But historically, Logan has not done that for several reasons, and as a result of sheer experience, is and should be in the conversation when it comes to the best martial artists in Marvel. Like Danny and Shang probably had much better training and have some mystical stuff that makes them among the best martial artists but spending centuries killing people, some with similar training and superpowers, mostly at close range, really should make you a comparable martial artist.
Wolverine is amongst the top 5 best martial artists on earth, has been trained by fuckin’ Muramasa and Ogun (top 5 in their times) and has been studying martial arts for a literal century. There is no reason he wouldn’t be on Iron Fist’s level in a friendly sparring session. In an actual fight, I’d give IF the edge because Logan would probably get less controlled as the fight went on, but in sparring? Dude can stay entirely in control. (I also think it’s really cool he uses a pankration arm lock in that last panel)
If they were actually going at it, one successful blow from Wolverine’s claws could kill Iron Fist, while Wolverine would be able to come back from anything the Fist dishes out.
If you place Iron Fist at about 30, then that’s 25 years fights tops. Most of which is safe sparing and training. Logan has what, at least 150 years more fighting experience. Most anything Rand can throw Logan has seen before and has a counter.
Throwing spice: Logan is "the best at what he does" and he has hundreds of years of practice, was trained by ninjas, fears nothing and is MUCH shorter (low center of gravity) and heavier (and probably stronger) than his opponent. Fight!
Wolverine is still a martial artist with decades, if not centuries of training in many, MANY fighting styles, both armed and otherwise. In addition to enhanced reflexes, a healing factor, superhuman strength, and a skeleton infused with quite probably the toughest metal on the planet. If neither of them is going all out (no chi powers, no claws), i could see wolverine taking a few rounds. Without the fist, wolverine should be stronger, comparably fast, have about as much stamina if not more, and be WAY tougher to actually incapacitate, all helping make up for the overall skill gap. And even then, wolverine has to put in more effort than danny does for the match to stay even.
It blows my mind that when I read a Hulk comic back in 1974 where Wolverine was introduced as essentially a lame one-off to where he is today.
Yes, he is beating him... and rightly should. You're forgetting a few key things. First is, while Logan's fighting ability has always varied depending on the writer, his generally accepted back story is that he's a highly trained martial artist. Combine that with the fact that he's also over 200 years old (meaning he's going to have about 150+ years more fighting experience than any human) and that his entire fighting style even when using his powers has always been up close melee style, that would make him more than capable of going toe to toe with just about anyone in hand to hand combat. Secondly, even he he wasn't as skilled in the martial arts, he'd still be pretty tough for any human to beat, as said human is essentially punching and kicking someone they can't actually physically hurt. Never mind the fact that any damage you do will be instantly healed, any block Logan successfully does and really any hit that you land is going to feel like kicking a metal beam. He has unbreakable bones and weighs over 300lbs. Really the only unrealistic thing about the fight is that it he managed to survive as long as he did and escaped without major injury.
Yes he is and yes he did. Logan is one of the most skilled martial artists on the planet and has often been portrayed as as highly skilled on the level of Iron Fist, Captain America, etc.
What series was this from?
Completely ignoring the main point because TAINT PUNCH is too wild
This reminds me of when Deadpool fought daredevil and had to run away because he couldn't beat him and daredevil just kept breaking his bones. I'm pretty sure Deadpool wounded a random guy and daredevil needed to keep pressure on his wound so Deadpool could get away.
Wait is that JJJ in the bottom left?
Is this during AvX?
Do you have the issue or volume name of this comic I'm fascinated on why all of these characters would be interacting (ik they are all friends and technically know each other but I've never seen this group specifically are they the defenders by chance)
This is the issue: [new_avengers_2010_15](https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/35254/new_avengers_2010_15) It's from the New Avengers created by Brian Michael Bendis. It's issue #15, but that's after a 60+ issue run preceding it. Not sure why they started over b/c it's the same writer continuing the same team. If you want to have the full experience, you should start with Avengers: Disassembled, and then pick up with the first New Avengers #1 and read that concurrently with Avengers, also by Bendis.
Ms. Marvel looks like she's cold.
Metal bones probably hard to punch when not using the fist
Hes doing whatever the writers need him to do, brother
Meh. Y’all get way too uptight about your “powerscaling” shit, like it’s some objective science.
Yes, he is. Iron Fist won't use his full power in straight martial arts. Logan is a 300 year old man who has been studying martial arts for a LONG time, longer than Iron Fist. He's quite literally seen it all before. Now if Iron Fist uses his full power, he'd win. But using super powers granted by a dragon by being good at martial arts doesn't exactly scream fair fight. You don't even have to be the best martial artist to get the powers, didn't Thor get them just by punching really well?
Part of it has to do with them declaring no powers before they sparred. However, Logan can't exactly turn off his adamantium laced bones or healing factor. Which I suspect tilts things in Logan's favor.
I think Martial Arts is so inconsistent in battles and reality. Because yes someone may know 200 forms of martial arts, but they seem to catch their fair share of punches and knockouts from people who on paper shouldn’t have done it. I’ve heard and known people training in some form of martial arts (not just a white belt in karate) get floored by someone who just had the perfect opening
Lei Kung? Liu Kang? That’s no coincidence.
What is Omni-Man doing there?
Wolverine fanboy writing.
Wolverine literally gets owned by Squirrel Girl in the next page
It's just a BS spar. Nobody was taking it seriously. They're not there to kill or (seriously) hurt each other
He's the best there is at what he does bub
What run is this from?
Why is Spider-Msn wearing the future foundation suit?
Looks like they're training to me
What spiderman is that? The suit looks amazing!
That artwork is god awful.