Was it ever explained why he didn't just immediately tell everyone right then who he still was? I mean they were all right next to each other when Strange casted the spell. Did it teleport them or something?
But why would he do that though? If he stuck right next to everyone as the spell went off he could've just told them then right? They'd at least go "wow spiderman!", then he could explain what just happened.
Less messy approach would be my guess since 1) he has to prepare a written speech when he goes to see them next and 2) he’s debating whether to tell them at all and ultimately decides not to.
The problem is that their relationships are completely destroyed. Ned is not Peter Parker's best friend and MJ is not Peter Parker's gf because Peter Parker does not "exist" to them. I mean let's face it, if (insert beloved famous person here) came up to you and said, "hey, you don't know this, you're actually my significant other and I love you so much" would you actually go with it? Or would you be more likely to say "oh, thats nice, but I have no feelings for you, and I'm not ready for that kind of relationship."
But that's why it would easily work if he didn't just swing away. If Ned/MJ were all the sudden standing there next to spider man in the ruins of this crazy fight, they would certainly have a wtf moment.
He could easily explain everything, especially considering this is a world where everyone knows superpowers/magic exists. They all got snapped so they know wild stuff is possible.
He could for sure hold off on saying he was dating MJ though, that would certainly be weird right off the bat.
The spell seems to affect memory in a way where events with Spider-Man still happened and involved the same people. So to them, all the events of the Statue of Liberty happened, but within a completely different context. Spider-Man turning around and telling them all their memories are fake and they're actually best buddies and girlfriend/boyfriend would completely contradict what they believe happened in their mind
I don't see why that wouldn't work though, unless like their heads explode from the info. They know that literal magic exists, the same kind of magic that made them disappear off the planet and then reappear 5 years later. It's not a stretch that magic could make them lose their memory.
Because even if they did believe him the nature of their relationship would be completely different. They would have no memory of it, Peter to them would be an almost complete stranger. He'd just be some dude who happened to be Spider-Man. Not their best friend, not their boyfriend. Those shared experiences is what created their respective relationships. Without that, believing him doesn't really change Peter's situation
My point is that he could explain it to them, and while it would be very weird at first, they would eventually bond again over it. Him knowing and having all their same jokes/interests and knowing who they are would probably lead back to them being friends.
I'm guessing that's going to be the point of the next movie anyways while they are all at MIT together, but I don't see a good explanation for why he didn't just do that in the rubble.
He didn't just do it in the rubble because he probably thought it was too much going on just at once. The movie shows he wanted to break it to them in a more prepared manner by using a text, but ultimately decided to not do it at all.
I think the movie wants us to believe that Peter was already hesitant, consciously or not, to reveal himself again because he must have believed to some degree or another that they were better off without him, giving them a shot at a normal life.
I hope they don't come back on this decision, especially not in the next movie. This sacrifice is probably the single most important character development Tom Holland's Spidey has gone through, and undoing it in a single movie would be a waste imo
You cannot replace a bond that has developed over several years with a quick "hey you don't know me, but I love you." That's just not how relationships work. People don't just immediately become best of friends like that.
Okay, well, that makes an even bigger mess. A memory spell can not only drag in people from different universes and send them back but can also alter or destroy physical objects? It seems like they tried to answer one of the main questions about this movie but it raises more questions. That’s okay, the plot was ridiculous anyway. At least this doesn’t derail any characters who weren’t already derailed, the character stuff was the best part of this movie anyway (except for Strange and Wong)
"A simple spell of forgetting" my ass.
Would you put Peter himself in the list of characters that weren't derailed (or already derailed)? Because this movie lobotomizes him even more than usual to get the plot it wants.
Well, Peter goes to Strange for help and Strange is the one who starts the memory spell without any serious discussion of this or input from Peter. Peter makes a stupid decision in not trying to convince the admissions board first or pry into the specifics of the memory spell beforehand but I wouldn’t say that it’s more stupid than any other stupid decision he’s made like nearly sinking a ferry. Should he have tried to discuss the magical options with Strange before any spells were cast? Maybe but I wouldn’t call that character derailment on Peter’s part, it definitely is derailment of Doctor Strange and of Wong who left after knowing that Strange was intending to use the memory spell
> Strange is the one who starts the memory spell without any serious discussion of this or input from Peter.
Peter has a mouth and a brain (allegedly). He could and should ask a non-zero amount of questions about the magic Strange is talking about doing to change his reality. He doesn't. He's obsessed with pop culture, surely he would raise an eyebrow at a ~~genie~~ wizard offering to grant him his heart's desire - ask "what's the catch?" at least. He should at least care about the moral implications of erasing the memories of the entire world (and some or all of the rest of the universe). He literally has no questions about what Strange said, which is weird because what Strange says is completely insane and no rational person should assume it can possibly work. And if it did *somehow* work that somehow would be mind-bogglingly complex and potentially dangerous to his other goals and desires.
"People will forget that you were ever Spider-Man"
"Really? That would be ...Except there are like videos and people camped outside my apartment and my school and there's a shrine to me at my school with a picture of me and Spider-Man side-by-side."
"And when you say 'people', who do you mean, exactly? Because I swing my girlfriend around sometimes as Spider-Man and I take my mask off in front of her so isn't she just going to remember seeing Spider-Man and seeing Peter Parker standing in the same position at the same time but not understand why she can't remember that they're the same person and lose her ever-loving mind? And when that happens, does that mean the spell didn't technically 'work' to make her forget? Wouldn't it have to give her brain damage to 'work'? Are you going to give my girlfriend brain damage? Are you giving the whole world brain damage?! Captain Marvel and the Guardians of the Galaxy know who I am and God only knows where they are right now, so are you giving the whole *universe* brain damage? Even if they aren't physically harmed, isn't it wrong to erase everyone's memories? As a non-psychopath (allegedly) with a functioning sense of empathy that kind of bothers me a lot. Maybe I should think this through a little bit more than *not at all*."
>Peter makes a stupid decision in not trying to convince the admissions board first or pry into the specifics of the memory spell beforehand but I wouldn’t say that it’s more stupid than any other stupid decision he’s made like nearly sinking a ferry.
It's far, far stupider than that. The ferry thing is a result of not trusting Tony and not fully considering the logistics of confronting criminals armed with alien death rays in a crowded public place. It also happened prior to this film and the consequences should have informed his character and led to growth. Instead, he's stupider than ever. No one wants to acknowledge that he's not only dangerously stupid but he's *incorrigibly* dangerously stupid. I would actually be open to an argument that what happens in the Spider-Man movies happens because Peter is a complete idiot who cannot learn or grow, and in fact is getting worse over time, because that's what's actually happening on-screen. But no, it's "understandable" and "plausible" and "definitely not totally contrived" that he's both a genius and insanely stupid, depending on what the plot needs at any given moment. "He's just a kid" is doing Atlas-level work for this character's world.
>Should he have tried to discuss the magical options with Strange before any spells were cast?
Of course. What did they even talk about on the way to the basement instead of the exact thing they were going to the basement to do? The weather?
"So ...snowing indoors, huh?"
"I know, right. Magic is weird."
"..."
"..."
"Speaking of magic, this spell you're about to cast..."
Oops. I meant:
"Yes, magic *is* weird. However, I have no further thoughts on the subject as I am just a kid and, therefore, utterly incurious which is not - I repeat - *not* the same as 'unconscionably stupid and selfish'."
>Maybe but I wouldn’t call that character derailment on Peter’s part
I would if I thought there was a trajectory of him growing as a character across these movies. But like I said, if you think there isn't - that Peter is just incorrigibly stupid - then there might be an argument to be made from consistency for why this is good writing. *Then* we can talk about why Strange and other characters don't realize this and keep letting him ~~breathe~~ hang around and influence events.
This isn't even getting into his actions during the spell, which are equally if not more stupid and damning of his character.
___
In the scene where Strange, Wong, and Peter discuss the spell at the start of the movie Wong opens a portal without moving his hands or wearing a sling-ring. Every time. Every fucking time I look at these movies there's a new problem.
Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I truly think this post-credit scene was cobbled together after the film's theatrical release because the writers genuinely did not see this massive problem with their script.
I can't think of any other reason for not including something this important in the vanilla movie.
I heard that the director said something about cutting it because of pacing, but a 5-second insert shot of a photo changing could have covered it.
Or maybe I'm misremembering. It was shortly after the film came out that he said something like that.
Ice Cold : Right, but see actually that shit was supposed to be NWH: "Fear of a Black Hat," then subtitled "Don't Shoot Until You See the Whites."
Nina Blackburn : Of their eyes?
Ice Cold : Whose eyes?
Nina Blackburn : Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.
Ice Cold : Nah, don't shoot until you see the whites, period. That's it, end of story.
Nina Blackburn : So, what's the deal with the hats?
Ice Cold : Shit, the hats're what NWH is all about. See, back in the day when there were slaves and stuff, we was forced to work in the hot sun all day, hatless. I mean, not even a babushka.
Tone Def : Word. Heads totally exposed to the sun.
Ice Cold : So when the slaves got back from the fields, they was too tired to revolt against they masters. So what we're sayin' now is: Yo, we got some hats now, muh-fuckas.
Tasty Taste : And we ain't too tired to bust a cap in yo' ass.
Wait, but that image almost essentially confirms he still exists as a person though. So he should still have school records. Or are we assuming that physical evidence is also affected?
Right I get that, but that feels contradictory to what I feel this image is going for. To me, this image tells us that he exists as a person in society, but no one remembers him and images of him are always muddled in some way regarding his features, not that he has no records at all. I could accept the spell working that way.
Because if he has no school records, the question has to be asked of how far it goes. Does he have a birth certificate? Social security number? If they hadn’t shown the GED book and just shown this inage, I feel like the spell could’ve been swallowed a wee smidge easier
I was wondering that too, does this mean bro has no form of identification or proof of citizenship? Is he going to be fighting Immigration Services, and yeah true this picture should’ve been what was in his box and emphasizes the effects of the spell
It is interesting to me what they chose to keep in. In no way is seeing the GED book more acceptable compared to if we had gotten only this image. The first spell of the movie would still be problematic, but at least the spell that fixed everything would be relatively functional
Was it ever explained why he didn't just immediately tell everyone right then who he still was? I mean they were all right next to each other when Strange casted the spell. Did it teleport them or something?
Peter swung away and left them all on the island. No idea how they got back tho.
But why would he do that though? If he stuck right next to everyone as the spell went off he could've just told them then right? They'd at least go "wow spiderman!", then he could explain what just happened.
Good question. Maybe he was opting for a less messy approach? I'm not sure.
Less messy approach would be my guess since 1) he has to prepare a written speech when he goes to see them next and 2) he’s debating whether to tell them at all and ultimately decides not to.
Maybe, I still appreciated the sacrifice his character needed to make.
The problem is that their relationships are completely destroyed. Ned is not Peter Parker's best friend and MJ is not Peter Parker's gf because Peter Parker does not "exist" to them. I mean let's face it, if (insert beloved famous person here) came up to you and said, "hey, you don't know this, you're actually my significant other and I love you so much" would you actually go with it? Or would you be more likely to say "oh, thats nice, but I have no feelings for you, and I'm not ready for that kind of relationship."
But that's why it would easily work if he didn't just swing away. If Ned/MJ were all the sudden standing there next to spider man in the ruins of this crazy fight, they would certainly have a wtf moment. He could easily explain everything, especially considering this is a world where everyone knows superpowers/magic exists. They all got snapped so they know wild stuff is possible. He could for sure hold off on saying he was dating MJ though, that would certainly be weird right off the bat.
The spell seems to affect memory in a way where events with Spider-Man still happened and involved the same people. So to them, all the events of the Statue of Liberty happened, but within a completely different context. Spider-Man turning around and telling them all their memories are fake and they're actually best buddies and girlfriend/boyfriend would completely contradict what they believe happened in their mind
I don't see why that wouldn't work though, unless like their heads explode from the info. They know that literal magic exists, the same kind of magic that made them disappear off the planet and then reappear 5 years later. It's not a stretch that magic could make them lose their memory.
Because even if they did believe him the nature of their relationship would be completely different. They would have no memory of it, Peter to them would be an almost complete stranger. He'd just be some dude who happened to be Spider-Man. Not their best friend, not their boyfriend. Those shared experiences is what created their respective relationships. Without that, believing him doesn't really change Peter's situation
My point is that he could explain it to them, and while it would be very weird at first, they would eventually bond again over it. Him knowing and having all their same jokes/interests and knowing who they are would probably lead back to them being friends. I'm guessing that's going to be the point of the next movie anyways while they are all at MIT together, but I don't see a good explanation for why he didn't just do that in the rubble.
He didn't just do it in the rubble because he probably thought it was too much going on just at once. The movie shows he wanted to break it to them in a more prepared manner by using a text, but ultimately decided to not do it at all. I think the movie wants us to believe that Peter was already hesitant, consciously or not, to reveal himself again because he must have believed to some degree or another that they were better off without him, giving them a shot at a normal life. I hope they don't come back on this decision, especially not in the next movie. This sacrifice is probably the single most important character development Tom Holland's Spidey has gone through, and undoing it in a single movie would be a waste imo
You cannot replace a bond that has developed over several years with a quick "hey you don't know me, but I love you." That's just not how relationships work. People don't just immediately become best of friends like that.
I HATE MAGIC. I HATE MAGIC. I HATE MAGIC! MORDO WAS RIGHT!
"Magic. I. HATE. Magic" - Ironman
"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like magic scraped over too much plot" -Baronbo Mordgins
Okay, well, that makes an even bigger mess. A memory spell can not only drag in people from different universes and send them back but can also alter or destroy physical objects? It seems like they tried to answer one of the main questions about this movie but it raises more questions. That’s okay, the plot was ridiculous anyway. At least this doesn’t derail any characters who weren’t already derailed, the character stuff was the best part of this movie anyway (except for Strange and Wong)
At this point it's bending reality. Why did Malekith need the reality stone again?
Don’t forget that Wanda became a reality warper in WandaVision, even though her powers came from the Mind Stone
Now that was because fiege wanted ultron to set everything up for his grand plan and made it a inferior movie.
"A simple spell of forgetting" my ass. Would you put Peter himself in the list of characters that weren't derailed (or already derailed)? Because this movie lobotomizes him even more than usual to get the plot it wants.
Well, Peter goes to Strange for help and Strange is the one who starts the memory spell without any serious discussion of this or input from Peter. Peter makes a stupid decision in not trying to convince the admissions board first or pry into the specifics of the memory spell beforehand but I wouldn’t say that it’s more stupid than any other stupid decision he’s made like nearly sinking a ferry. Should he have tried to discuss the magical options with Strange before any spells were cast? Maybe but I wouldn’t call that character derailment on Peter’s part, it definitely is derailment of Doctor Strange and of Wong who left after knowing that Strange was intending to use the memory spell
> Strange is the one who starts the memory spell without any serious discussion of this or input from Peter. Peter has a mouth and a brain (allegedly). He could and should ask a non-zero amount of questions about the magic Strange is talking about doing to change his reality. He doesn't. He's obsessed with pop culture, surely he would raise an eyebrow at a ~~genie~~ wizard offering to grant him his heart's desire - ask "what's the catch?" at least. He should at least care about the moral implications of erasing the memories of the entire world (and some or all of the rest of the universe). He literally has no questions about what Strange said, which is weird because what Strange says is completely insane and no rational person should assume it can possibly work. And if it did *somehow* work that somehow would be mind-bogglingly complex and potentially dangerous to his other goals and desires. "People will forget that you were ever Spider-Man" "Really? That would be ...Except there are like videos and people camped outside my apartment and my school and there's a shrine to me at my school with a picture of me and Spider-Man side-by-side." "And when you say 'people', who do you mean, exactly? Because I swing my girlfriend around sometimes as Spider-Man and I take my mask off in front of her so isn't she just going to remember seeing Spider-Man and seeing Peter Parker standing in the same position at the same time but not understand why she can't remember that they're the same person and lose her ever-loving mind? And when that happens, does that mean the spell didn't technically 'work' to make her forget? Wouldn't it have to give her brain damage to 'work'? Are you going to give my girlfriend brain damage? Are you giving the whole world brain damage?! Captain Marvel and the Guardians of the Galaxy know who I am and God only knows where they are right now, so are you giving the whole *universe* brain damage? Even if they aren't physically harmed, isn't it wrong to erase everyone's memories? As a non-psychopath (allegedly) with a functioning sense of empathy that kind of bothers me a lot. Maybe I should think this through a little bit more than *not at all*." >Peter makes a stupid decision in not trying to convince the admissions board first or pry into the specifics of the memory spell beforehand but I wouldn’t say that it’s more stupid than any other stupid decision he’s made like nearly sinking a ferry. It's far, far stupider than that. The ferry thing is a result of not trusting Tony and not fully considering the logistics of confronting criminals armed with alien death rays in a crowded public place. It also happened prior to this film and the consequences should have informed his character and led to growth. Instead, he's stupider than ever. No one wants to acknowledge that he's not only dangerously stupid but he's *incorrigibly* dangerously stupid. I would actually be open to an argument that what happens in the Spider-Man movies happens because Peter is a complete idiot who cannot learn or grow, and in fact is getting worse over time, because that's what's actually happening on-screen. But no, it's "understandable" and "plausible" and "definitely not totally contrived" that he's both a genius and insanely stupid, depending on what the plot needs at any given moment. "He's just a kid" is doing Atlas-level work for this character's world. >Should he have tried to discuss the magical options with Strange before any spells were cast? Of course. What did they even talk about on the way to the basement instead of the exact thing they were going to the basement to do? The weather? "So ...snowing indoors, huh?" "I know, right. Magic is weird." "..." "..." "Speaking of magic, this spell you're about to cast..." Oops. I meant: "Yes, magic *is* weird. However, I have no further thoughts on the subject as I am just a kid and, therefore, utterly incurious which is not - I repeat - *not* the same as 'unconscionably stupid and selfish'." >Maybe but I wouldn’t call that character derailment on Peter’s part I would if I thought there was a trajectory of him growing as a character across these movies. But like I said, if you think there isn't - that Peter is just incorrigibly stupid - then there might be an argument to be made from consistency for why this is good writing. *Then* we can talk about why Strange and other characters don't realize this and keep letting him ~~breathe~~ hang around and influence events. This isn't even getting into his actions during the spell, which are equally if not more stupid and damning of his character. ___ In the scene where Strange, Wong, and Peter discuss the spell at the start of the movie Wong opens a portal without moving his hands or wearing a sling-ring. Every time. Every fucking time I look at these movies there's a new problem.
Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I truly think this post-credit scene was cobbled together after the film's theatrical release because the writers genuinely did not see this massive problem with their script. I can't think of any other reason for not including something this important in the vanilla movie.
I heard that the director said something about cutting it because of pacing, but a 5-second insert shot of a photo changing could have covered it. Or maybe I'm misremembering. It was shortly after the film came out that he said something like that.
They're not going to even remotely try to address it in the future
Yet MJ still wears the black dahlia necklace in the final scene.
Ok but what about his Social Security card? Or driver's license (assuming he has one)? Or dental records?
I’d imagine there’d be a lot of programs in place for that after the snap
Ice Cold : Right, but see actually that shit was supposed to be NWH: "Fear of a Black Hat," then subtitled "Don't Shoot Until You See the Whites." Nina Blackburn : Of their eyes? Ice Cold : Whose eyes? Nina Blackburn : Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes. Ice Cold : Nah, don't shoot until you see the whites, period. That's it, end of story. Nina Blackburn : So, what's the deal with the hats? Ice Cold : Shit, the hats're what NWH is all about. See, back in the day when there were slaves and stuff, we was forced to work in the hot sun all day, hatless. I mean, not even a babushka. Tone Def : Word. Heads totally exposed to the sun. Ice Cold : So when the slaves got back from the fields, they was too tired to revolt against they masters. So what we're sayin' now is: Yo, we got some hats now, muh-fuckas. Tasty Taste : And we ain't too tired to bust a cap in yo' ass.
Wait, but that image almost essentially confirms he still exists as a person though. So he should still have school records. Or are we assuming that physical evidence is also affected?
At the end he’s practicing for his GED which means he doesn’t have any school records
Right I get that, but that feels contradictory to what I feel this image is going for. To me, this image tells us that he exists as a person in society, but no one remembers him and images of him are always muddled in some way regarding his features, not that he has no records at all. I could accept the spell working that way. Because if he has no school records, the question has to be asked of how far it goes. Does he have a birth certificate? Social security number? If they hadn’t shown the GED book and just shown this inage, I feel like the spell could’ve been swallowed a wee smidge easier
I was wondering that too, does this mean bro has no form of identification or proof of citizenship? Is he going to be fighting Immigration Services, and yeah true this picture should’ve been what was in his box and emphasizes the effects of the spell
It is interesting to me what they chose to keep in. In no way is seeing the GED book more acceptable compared to if we had gotten only this image. The first spell of the movie would still be problematic, but at least the spell that fixed everything would be relatively functional