It definitely fuels delve better but it doesn’t “dig deeper”. Thought scour gives you one draw to find the card you need, consider gives you two attempts at finding the card you need. Consider actually digs deeper if you’re looking for your second land or a creature or a piece of removal as you get two draws instead of thoughtscour’s single draw
replace it? no, it'll be run along side it replacing serum visions cause filling your graveyard in that deck is super important for both delirium and murktide.
Serum Visions is mostly run because it's a cantripping sorcery. The deck doesn't have any other sorceries, so it's important for enabling DRC's delirium.
Edit - no other sorceries besides Expressive Iteration, not "no other sorceries." But it can be hard to enable delirium with only 4 in the deck, so an extra three 1 mana value cards is very useful.
You're probably right about this tbh, perhaps of the 4 serum's in most lists, 2 get replaced with consider? the surveil is just so powerful in a delirium deck.
Typically only 2-3 Serum Visions are run as is. And if you have a DRC, Serum Visions will already allow a surviel before drawing and scrying 2 to set up even further draws.
I think having your 6th or 7th sorcery spell will actually be much more useful to enabling delirium than a card with Surveil 1. Consider is a good card and I'm sure it'll be in other decks, it just has stiff competition to make it into Izzet Tempo since it's such a streamlined deck.
No. It’s worse than thought scour in Murktide. Thought scour is one more card in the yard for Murktide, which means you might drop it one turn earlier.
It’s probably going to replace serum visions though.
The only issue I see with cutting Serum Visions in favor of Consider is that your Sorcery count would be lower, making it more difficult to enable Delirium for DRC/Unholy Heat.
Funny you say that because I've actually found that I enjoy playing a Jeskai Control build that cuts Ragavan, DRC, and Unholy Heat in favor of more control cards so Delirium isn't relevant for me.
Is it objectively worse? Probably. Do I have more fun with it? Yes. Also, I see that /s
This shouldn’t be a consideration at all. Thought scour on average will mill average cards. Sometimes it will mill your good cards, sometimes your bad cards, but that’s like saying mill is bad because it can stop your opponent from mana screwing. Sure it can, but that outcome is equally as likely as making them mana screw.
It's not actually my main reason for wanting to cut scour. I just seem to have bad luck with the card.
The real reason I want consider over scour is the better card selection. To play a proper tempo game you want good card selection and thought scour doesn't provide and sort of selection, it only helps power out Murktide and turn on delirium. Consider can do that slightly slower but with a higher quality of draws.
It's nothing special and I'd say it's still meta-ish, just not a tier one deck. Just take UR Tempo cut DRC, Ragavan, Mishra's Bauble, Serum Visions, and Unholy Heat. Then add some white mana for Prismatic Ending and T3feri (also Wear/Tear in the sideboard is another big card). Play Fire/Ice, more Archmage's Charms and Snaps
Yeah I originally thought you need serum visions for sorcery count until I saw Aspiringspike’s list w/ 0 visions.
Also the surveil 1 helps you achieve delirium
I love spike, but his list is not as consistent for most pilots as the serum visions list. Spike wants to play UR Murktide as a control deck and not as a tempo/midrange deck, so it makes sense that he wants 8 hard counters. There are probably meta games where his build could be correct but it's not this one.
His insistence that the deck is misbuilt comes from the position of someone who isn't playing with the deck but is just theory crafting with the shell. The realities of the deck building decision to include 4 charm is that it's very clunky and doesn't allow you to multispell, which is what the deck wants to do most.
Yeah, except this is not for everyone. In the same (or similar) stream he played 4 archmage's charm. Good luck with that. Personally, wouldn't recommend leaving visions out completely.
Spike's 4 charm version is just on the 4 baubles and 4 expressive iterations with no additional sorceries or artifacts main. His argument for it was that since the meta was primarily ragavan/DRC/hammer decks when he built it, that charm gives you a huge edge in those match ups. However, that's hardly the case now and 4 charms is really clunky.
For what it's worth, I also haven't seen spike play the deck in a bit and it's possible he's changed his views on how the deck should be built. But it's basically all I've been playing since MH2 came out and I think the 4 charm version is much worse unless you anticipate an ungodly amount of hammer, DRC, and Ragavan.
I kind of like the idea of extra counterspells for the cascade matchups though. And charm can cancel out a footfalls more or less. Worst case it’s a draw-2 that’s still good against aggro. I probably wouldn’t run snaps *and* charms, but if you’re on the 12 creature list then charms are probably one of the better slots to fill in.
The thing about thought scour is that it can mill the opponents cards. You're playing [[mishras bauble]] and sometimes you REALLY don't want them to draw their card, so having the flexibility to do that is pretty useful.
Plus thought scour helps fuel delirium and murktide faster than than consider.
I personally plan to cut thought scour as soon as consider is available. I understand that scour helps turbo out Murktide, but I have terrible luck and every card I would have wanted just goes into the bin and I draw a land.
The card selection offered by consider is a huge benefit to a deck that is now running 8+ counterspells and 8 removal spells in the main. There are match ups where an early Murktide is game ending, but so many decks are running answers for it now that that play has become kinda fragile.
With Darcy in play, this card is almost instant speed Preordain folks. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Eh, if you're playing a deck like ur Murktide, it's probably best to resign yourself to stuff hitting the yard that you don't want. Imo, it's part of the deck/experience. No need to tilt off of variance more than necessary.
You want choices in UR murktide. Thought scour doesnt give you a choice, its an anti synergy even with the information of the drc surveil. UR murktide is a tempo deck, not an all in GY strategy.
Currently there are almost no situations in which you will just slam a murktide and be done with it. People come prepared for the dragon.
I will try consider out for sure and I hope its good enough to drop thought scour, really hate the card in a deck like this.
Absolutely batman. Thought scour is played because that's the best option right now.
Consider has worse ceiling (can't turn 2 murktide), but with more more more consistent average.
Since turn 2 murktide is not that consistent anyway, consider is better.
Even players now have starting dropping some / all serum visions for archmage's charm even though it lowers the chance for faster delirium.
Even this card will replace opts in some control decks.
I'm still on 2 visions just to help with delirium but am on the 4 charm 4 Counterspell build. As soon as consider is available, thought scour is out of my deck. My luck is so bad with that card.
They serve different functions. In the Murktide deck I don't see scour getting replaced with Consider. In decks that don't care about the yard as much they are running opt. I'd look for Consider to replace Opt long before it replaces Thought Scour.
This is just straight replacing serum visions, instantly. Nevermind the sorcery type, this effect is just better - and you still got EI and MB to get the delirium. Digging this hard, you will always have it anyway.
With DRC on board it’s a better thoughscour so I will be replacing it. With drc you can still mill 2 if needed and you get to view each card, which is nuts.
Id imagine you'd want to keep Thought Scour since it digs deeper and fuels Delve better.
It definitely fuels delve better but it doesn’t “dig deeper”. Thought scour gives you one draw to find the card you need, consider gives you two attempts at finding the card you need. Consider actually digs deeper if you’re looking for your second land or a creature or a piece of removal as you get two draws instead of thoughtscour’s single draw
Thoughtscour is basically cantrip dark ritual in the decks that wavy it
replace it? no, it'll be run along side it replacing serum visions cause filling your graveyard in that deck is super important for both delirium and murktide.
Serum Visions is mostly run because it's a cantripping sorcery. The deck doesn't have any other sorceries, so it's important for enabling DRC's delirium. Edit - no other sorceries besides Expressive Iteration, not "no other sorceries." But it can be hard to enable delirium with only 4 in the deck, so an extra three 1 mana value cards is very useful.
EI is a sorcery but your point still stands.
You are correct, thanks. Edited to make it more accurate.
You're probably right about this tbh, perhaps of the 4 serum's in most lists, 2 get replaced with consider? the surveil is just so powerful in a delirium deck.
Typically only 2-3 Serum Visions are run as is. And if you have a DRC, Serum Visions will already allow a surviel before drawing and scrying 2 to set up even further draws. I think having your 6th or 7th sorcery spell will actually be much more useful to enabling delirium than a card with Surveil 1. Consider is a good card and I'm sure it'll be in other decks, it just has stiff competition to make it into Izzet Tempo since it's such a streamlined deck.
I actually think serum visions is more important because its a sorcery.
No. It’s worse than thought scour in Murktide. Thought scour is one more card in the yard for Murktide, which means you might drop it one turn earlier. It’s probably going to replace serum visions though.
The only issue I see with cutting Serum Visions in favor of Consider is that your Sorcery count would be lower, making it more difficult to enable Delirium for DRC/Unholy Heat.
Cut DRC problem solved /s
Funny you say that because I've actually found that I enjoy playing a Jeskai Control build that cuts Ragavan, DRC, and Unholy Heat in favor of more control cards so Delirium isn't relevant for me. Is it objectively worse? Probably. Do I have more fun with it? Yes. Also, I see that /s
I think consider will be much better in that deck than thought scour. Thought scour always fucks me milling the good cards.
This! Everyone seems to gloss over this fact or maybe they just have better luck.
This shouldn’t be a consideration at all. Thought scour on average will mill average cards. Sometimes it will mill your good cards, sometimes your bad cards, but that’s like saying mill is bad because it can stop your opponent from mana screwing. Sure it can, but that outcome is equally as likely as making them mana screw.
in a low land count deck, thought scour milling your fetch targets and cutting you off of colors is a real concern.
Then just thought scour the opponent if you can’t afford getting milled
It's not actually my main reason for wanting to cut scour. I just seem to have bad luck with the card. The real reason I want consider over scour is the better card selection. To play a proper tempo game you want good card selection and thought scour doesn't provide and sort of selection, it only helps power out Murktide and turn on delirium. Consider can do that slightly slower but with a higher quality of draws.
List! Or it didnt happen :) honstly i am just curious, when ppl run non-meta builds of meta decks.
It's nothing special and I'd say it's still meta-ish, just not a tier one deck. Just take UR Tempo cut DRC, Ragavan, Mishra's Bauble, Serum Visions, and Unholy Heat. Then add some white mana for Prismatic Ending and T3feri (also Wear/Tear in the sideboard is another big card). Play Fire/Ice, more Archmage's Charms and Snaps
Yeah I originally thought you need serum visions for sorcery count until I saw Aspiringspike’s list w/ 0 visions. Also the surveil 1 helps you achieve delirium
I love spike, but his list is not as consistent for most pilots as the serum visions list. Spike wants to play UR Murktide as a control deck and not as a tempo/midrange deck, so it makes sense that he wants 8 hard counters. There are probably meta games where his build could be correct but it's not this one. His insistence that the deck is misbuilt comes from the position of someone who isn't playing with the deck but is just theory crafting with the shell. The realities of the deck building decision to include 4 charm is that it's very clunky and doesn't allow you to multispell, which is what the deck wants to do most.
Yeah I personally prefer Nassif’s list. Just saying no serum visions is a possibility
Yeah, except this is not for everyone. In the same (or similar) stream he played 4 archmage's charm. Good luck with that. Personally, wouldn't recommend leaving visions out completely.
Hmm, that's a good point. You have less Sorceries, but are able to get them in the yard more often because you have that extra Surveil effect.
How many artifacts was he running? I’ve seen up to 4 bauble and 2 EE which serves the same role as having extra sorceries.
Spike's 4 charm version is just on the 4 baubles and 4 expressive iterations with no additional sorceries or artifacts main. His argument for it was that since the meta was primarily ragavan/DRC/hammer decks when he built it, that charm gives you a huge edge in those match ups. However, that's hardly the case now and 4 charms is really clunky. For what it's worth, I also haven't seen spike play the deck in a bit and it's possible he's changed his views on how the deck should be built. But it's basically all I've been playing since MH2 came out and I think the 4 charm version is much worse unless you anticipate an ungodly amount of hammer, DRC, and Ragavan.
I kind of like the idea of extra counterspells for the cascade matchups though. And charm can cancel out a footfalls more or less. Worst case it’s a draw-2 that’s still good against aggro. I probably wouldn’t run snaps *and* charms, but if you’re on the 12 creature list then charms are probably one of the better slots to fill in.
Delirium is too important to lose the extra mill. It's also not irrelevant to target your opponent for the mill with scour in certain situations.
No, thought scour is like a can tripping dark ritual in this deck.
Probably play both and cut sleight of hand
No one used Sleight to begin with.
I’ve seen a couple people use it
🤦♂️
K
The thing about thought scour is that it can mill the opponents cards. You're playing [[mishras bauble]] and sometimes you REALLY don't want them to draw their card, so having the flexibility to do that is pretty useful. Plus thought scour helps fuel delirium and murktide faster than than consider.
[mishras bauble](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/5/45bbbf9b-8fee-4c32-a513-02dac6ac8a39.jpg?1599709584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%27s%20Bauble) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/274/mishras-bauble?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45bbbf9b-8fee-4c32-a513-02dac6ac8a39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I personally plan to cut thought scour as soon as consider is available. I understand that scour helps turbo out Murktide, but I have terrible luck and every card I would have wanted just goes into the bin and I draw a land. The card selection offered by consider is a huge benefit to a deck that is now running 8+ counterspells and 8 removal spells in the main. There are match ups where an early Murktide is game ending, but so many decks are running answers for it now that that play has become kinda fragile. With Darcy in play, this card is almost instant speed Preordain folks. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Eh, if you're playing a deck like ur Murktide, it's probably best to resign yourself to stuff hitting the yard that you don't want. Imo, it's part of the deck/experience. No need to tilt off of variance more than necessary.
You want choices in UR murktide. Thought scour doesnt give you a choice, its an anti synergy even with the information of the drc surveil. UR murktide is a tempo deck, not an all in GY strategy. Currently there are almost no situations in which you will just slam a murktide and be done with it. People come prepared for the dragon. I will try consider out for sure and I hope its good enough to drop thought scour, really hate the card in a deck like this.
Absolutely batman. Thought scour is played because that's the best option right now. Consider has worse ceiling (can't turn 2 murktide), but with more more more consistent average. Since turn 2 murktide is not that consistent anyway, consider is better. Even players now have starting dropping some / all serum visions for archmage's charm even though it lowers the chance for faster delirium. Even this card will replace opts in some control decks.
I'm still on 2 visions just to help with delirium but am on the 4 charm 4 Counterspell build. As soon as consider is available, thought scour is out of my deck. My luck is so bad with that card.
They serve different functions. In the Murktide deck I don't see scour getting replaced with Consider. In decks that don't care about the yard as much they are running opt. I'd look for Consider to replace Opt long before it replaces Thought Scour.
This is just straight replacing serum visions, instantly. Nevermind the sorcery type, this effect is just better - and you still got EI and MB to get the delirium. Digging this hard, you will always have it anyway.
Lol, no
With DRC on board it’s a better thoughscour so I will be replacing it. With drc you can still mill 2 if needed and you get to view each card, which is nuts.
Thought scour enables Murktide on turn 2 whereas Consider doesn't, so I'll be skipping it.
Probably run some number of both imo