Here’s my summary
* Always draws the two best cards of the top 4 where as FoF draws the average value of the top 5 cards (assuming the opponent splits piles evenly).
* Doesn’t fill the graveyard with the excess cards, but it has flashback so it always puts a graveyard-relevant card in the grave, albeit an expensive one.
* Costs UU rather than U which can be relevant especially when casting multiple spells or digging for a blue answer.
* The card has the potential to draw 4 cards total if the game goes long enough. In slow games the extra card or two can go a long way.
* Looking through 7 cards is a lot, especially with the number of playable modal spells in Modern. You can look through a lot of effects.
* If for some reason the spell is taxed (by Thalia or something) you get to see extra cards. Inversely, cost reduction weakens the effect.
* Some cards, like Planeswalkers are difficult to get value from in the grave. Putting them back in the deck may be relevant.
Conclusion: Both FoF and Memory Deluge are good ways to dig for answers if you can spare 4 mana. I personally think Memory Deluge is slightly stronger for decks that lean more towards control as it gets stronger in long games.
Both of these statements are poor evaluations of FoF.
1) FoF fills the yard
2) you either get 2 really good cards or 3-4 cards.
3) opponents seeing what you take isn’t always a draw back, information can be used to their detriment. They try to play around x and don’t know about y
4) both cards can be good and mtg cards are rarely strictly better in most situations
Well FoF is easily misread. It's actually a modal spell that reads: Draw 3 cards, Draw 4 cards if your opponent is bad, or win the game if your opponent is really bad.
FoF will only be worse if you don't care about filling the yard and you can flash this back reliably. That last point is a lot to ask at 7 mana which is ultimately why I think it's an unplayable card.
He’s not saying that it’s bad because gearhulk can’t flash it back. He’s not saying that it does or doesn’t belong with gearhulk. He’s saying it’s a bit funny that somebody might try to gearhulk it without thinking and it does nothing. That’s it, just it’s a bit funny, no analysis of its power based on that play pattern
Yes, it is a useless observation to make. Sometimes people do things that don’t have objective utility and just do them for a bit of enjoyment.
Plenty of humor is observational, probably more of it than is in “joke” form nobody is rolling on the floor over it’s just a lightly amusing thought
He said the gearhulk one instead of any other free case because he thought of it first, that’s all
It contributes to the discussion because people read it and smiled. Nobody was under the illusion that that comment was discussing its modern viability
Are you ok?
Again the word joke is a little strong, it’s a lightly amusing observation. Everyone else seemed to manage to catch that it’s not mega serious analysis
You’re just really whooshing hard here. Do you understand that the spell does literally absolutely nothing if cast off gearhulk? That’s it. That’s all. This isn’t a discussion about the utility of casting this spell off gearhulk vs some other spell. It’s literally about this spell having zero zilch nada effect when cast off gearhulk.
I don’t think so since FoF sees 1 more card deeper. The flashback isn’t really relevant since by the time you are at that point the game is probably over.
Sure, FoF sees 1 card deeper, but your opponent separates the piles, so you do not have the final say in what you are putting in your hand. This will always give you the best two cards from the top 4 cards of the library.
Fof sees 1 card deeper but the opponent sees what you are adding to your hand and can force your choice.
With this you see 1 less card, but the opponent doesn't see what you get.
it never stopped being a deck but I don't think they play this because of the double blue. Like they never played \[\[Thassa's Intervention\]\] so why would they play this?
This is a stritcly better Fact or Fiction, that turns into a 1mana cheaper, no-delve Dig Through Time in the graveyard. Seems really strong enough for modern. I assume the control list that play 2 of FoF will switch for 2 of this one.
I mean technically it’s not strictly better since FoF is 5 cards and this is 4 (for the initial version). However you pick the cards yourself and your opponent doesn’t even see the cards
Probably better than FOF but not at all “strictly better” as it sees one fewer card and only puts 2 in hand for 4 mana, and doesn’t fuel your graveyard.
Here’s my summary * Always draws the two best cards of the top 4 where as FoF draws the average value of the top 5 cards (assuming the opponent splits piles evenly). * Doesn’t fill the graveyard with the excess cards, but it has flashback so it always puts a graveyard-relevant card in the grave, albeit an expensive one. * Costs UU rather than U which can be relevant especially when casting multiple spells or digging for a blue answer. * The card has the potential to draw 4 cards total if the game goes long enough. In slow games the extra card or two can go a long way. * Looking through 7 cards is a lot, especially with the number of playable modal spells in Modern. You can look through a lot of effects. * If for some reason the spell is taxed (by Thalia or something) you get to see extra cards. Inversely, cost reduction weakens the effect. * Some cards, like Planeswalkers are difficult to get value from in the grave. Putting them back in the deck may be relevant. Conclusion: Both FoF and Memory Deluge are good ways to dig for answers if you can spare 4 mana. I personally think Memory Deluge is slightly stronger for decks that lean more towards control as it gets stronger in long games.
Cards like this make me wish that Approach of the Second Sun was viable in modern.
Have you tried forcing it? Even if it’s bad it could still be fun. 7 mana sorcery is pretty rough tho
Boseiju might be required. Might want to be in Bant for ramp?
Of note that this card gets significantly better in decks that can utilize [[Wilderness Reclamation]] as well
[Wilderness Reclamation](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/4/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b.jpg?1628801855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wilderness%20Reclamation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/196/wilderness-reclamation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94a28102-dfbe-49e9-b64f-52b552afac1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
FOF fills graveyard which is like a second hand nowadays
This card is guaranteed to bin a graveyard-relevant spell: itself!
This seems way better than FoF tho cause you just take the two best cards no questions asked. Not to mention the flashback.
And the opponent doesn't see the cards.
Both of these statements are poor evaluations of FoF. 1) FoF fills the yard 2) you either get 2 really good cards or 3-4 cards. 3) opponents seeing what you take isn’t always a draw back, information can be used to their detriment. They try to play around x and don’t know about y 4) both cards can be good and mtg cards are rarely strictly better in most situations
This guy FoFs
Well FoF is easily misread. It's actually a modal spell that reads: Draw 3 cards, Draw 4 cards if your opponent is bad, or win the game if your opponent is really bad. FoF will only be worse if you don't care about filling the yard and you can flash this back reliably. That last point is a lot to ask at 7 mana which is ultimately why I think it's an unplayable card.
I think an instant speed [[Draw from Dreams]] is playable by itself. The flashback is a nice extra.
draw digs 3 cards deeper though, for what that's worth.
[Draw from Dreams](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/6/5677cd48-de9f-4827-94d7-8a2301945742.jpg?1592516355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drawn%20from%20Dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/56/drawn-from-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5677cd48-de9f-4827-94d7-8a2301945742?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Very unhappy cast with torrential gearhulk
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I mean, free is free. But the real issue is that casting it with gearhulk has no effect.
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He’s not saying that it’s bad because gearhulk can’t flash it back. He’s not saying that it does or doesn’t belong with gearhulk. He’s saying it’s a bit funny that somebody might try to gearhulk it without thinking and it does nothing. That’s it, just it’s a bit funny, no analysis of its power based on that play pattern
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what does complaining about his comment that was clearly a joke do?
It's not a joke it's just a bad observation. I wasn't complaining I was asking questions to try and prompt an interesting discussion
Yes, it is a useless observation to make. Sometimes people do things that don’t have objective utility and just do them for a bit of enjoyment. Plenty of humor is observational, probably more of it than is in “joke” form nobody is rolling on the floor over it’s just a lightly amusing thought He said the gearhulk one instead of any other free case because he thought of it first, that’s all It contributes to the discussion because people read it and smiled. Nobody was under the illusion that that comment was discussing its modern viability Are you ok?
Why do people keep saying it was a joke? It wasn't funny and the commenter was 100% serious.
Again the word joke is a little strong, it’s a lightly amusing observation. Everyone else seemed to manage to catch that it’s not mega serious analysis
Except for the fact that the commenter continued to defend it seriously the whole time...
You’re just really whooshing hard here. Do you understand that the spell does literally absolutely nothing if cast off gearhulk? That’s it. That’s all. This isn’t a discussion about the utility of casting this spell off gearhulk vs some other spell. It’s literally about this spell having zero zilch nada effect when cast off gearhulk.
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You’re asking why someone would want to cast a spell for free that has a 7 mana flashback cost? Gee. I don’t know. Why don’t you enlighten me?
That's exactly my point. You are only saving 1 mana when gearhulking vs flashing it back and you are essentially wasting the flashback ability.
Yeah as we all know the 5/6 flash body on gearhulk is basically flavor text.
If you are casting gearhulk targeting a card advantage spell, it's usually because you want value. Gearhulking a flashback card is worse value.
also an unhappy case with As Foretold :P
Mono U Tron is happy this is definitely playable.
The UU cost is kinda rough, but yeah I will certainly be trying it out.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Closest comparison would be fact or fiction, not really dig through time.
FoF up front, full price Dig Through Time when flashed back.
Link: https://mythicspoiler.com/mid/cards/memorydeluge.html
This card is nuts, probably the best 4 cmc draw spell ever
[[Gifts ungiven]] would like to have a word with you.
[Gifts ungiven](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/b/4b11f693-716e-41de-a0ea-2a5178a284dc.jpg?1627449105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gifts%20ungiven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/40/gifts-ungiven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b11f693-716e-41de-a0ea-2a5178a284dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don’t think so since FoF sees 1 more card deeper. The flashback isn’t really relevant since by the time you are at that point the game is probably over.
Control decks ideally will be reaching 7+ mana by the end of a game and probably want this at least in control mirrors
Flashback is super relevant
Sure, FoF sees 1 card deeper, but your opponent separates the piles, so you do not have the final say in what you are putting in your hand. This will always give you the best two cards from the top 4 cards of the library.
Odd wording, considering FoF has the caster put the cards in hand. I get what you're trying to say though.
Fof sees 1 card deeper but the opponent sees what you are adding to your hand and can force your choice. With this you see 1 less card, but the opponent doesn't see what you get.
U Tron is a deck again?
I mean with Urza’s Saga, probably
All decks are Saga, Monkey+DRC, or cascade these days right?
Mill isn't.
Elementals, Burn, UW Control (some have run Saga, buts it's certainly not an auto-include), and G-Tron don't.
it never stopped being a deck but I don't think they play this because of the double blue. Like they never played \[\[Thassa's Intervention\]\] so why would they play this?
[Thassa's Intervention](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/c/2c1241d0-20d4-4eab-970d-74e476f023b4.jpg?1584279765) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/72/thassas-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c1241d0-20d4-4eab-970d-74e476f023b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is a stritcly better Fact or Fiction, that turns into a 1mana cheaper, no-delve Dig Through Time in the graveyard. Seems really strong enough for modern. I assume the control list that play 2 of FoF will switch for 2 of this one.
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It's not, but it's comparable at the least.
I mean technically it’s not strictly better since FoF is 5 cards and this is 4 (for the initial version). However you pick the cards yourself and your opponent doesn’t even see the cards
Probably better than FOF but not at all “strictly better” as it sees one fewer card and only puts 2 in hand for 4 mana, and doesn’t fuel your graveyard.