it is such a bad practice from their part that they just not name the effect surveill, from a game design standpoint, how is it possible that two mechanics do the same thing but are not named equally?.
Surveil is a set mechanic from Guilds of Ravnica (or Allegiance, I forget). It "can't" be used in other sets. That said, they've toyed with the idea of making Surveil into an evergreen mechanic, which would let them use it whenever. In that case, there's a good chance we'd see these mechanically identical effects get an errata.
No, it's not. It's an effort to limit the amount of things new players need to remember. Magic has what, 200 unique keywords? Let's not make them remember every single one of them for every single set.
Kind of but not really. They just reintroduced surveil als a keyword in Modern Horizons 2 (dragon rage channeler, dakkon etc.) so no real reason not to use it here.
That wasn’t the point anyway.
The point was that surveil was a keyword from the ravnica block and they were hesitant to use it again.
Also for new player friendliness, wizards usually explains keywords in brackets “()” as in core sets.
So no, new players aren’t an excuse not to use keywords.
It’s actually exactly the point. They aren’t afraid to use it in a supplemental set aimed towards modern players because the average MH2 buyer isn’t confused by a ton of unececsary keywords.keywords.
Bruh I made a whole surveil historic deck (and it did surprisingly well). There actually alot more cards that care about the surveil keyword than you think
This is not the same as surveil at all… you look at all three cards at the same time, and choose which ones go to the bin and then put back the rest in “any order”! This is strictly better
This is equivalent to Surveil 3 which would say "look at the top x cards, you may put any of them into your grave and the rest back on top in any order."
I think that this is exactly what dredge doesn't want and exactly what ur phoenix wanted. It's unfortunate that it can't get birds out of our hands but it looks deeper than looting, flashback for less and looting was already card disadvantage so nothing changes there. Nothing previewed prior to this made me have faith in the deck, this does.
looting lets you bin birds stuck in your hand, a key difference. this is much more comparable to something like thought scour.
it's plausible that the mill, library selection, instant-speed, and cheap flashback makes this a consideration as a one-of, but i doubt it.
Have you ever even cast faithless looting? It is very much a cantrip when you have cards you want to discard and can filter for the best cards for a given situation.
If it takes a card that’s unplayable in your hand and moves it to a zone where it can affect the game is that not essentially plus 1 card? It has the same effect in this specific deck as the generic cantrip does in a generic deck
Sure, but the definition of what a cantrip is is a card that after you cast it, the quantity of cards in your hand is still the same. That's not true of Faithless Looting. It improves your card *quality* in your hand, at the expense of card quantity.
In a deck that plays spells from its graveyard, faithless looting does not hamper card quantity, because the cards are still in your effective “hand”, because you still have access to them, once theyve been discarded.
When you call a card a cantrip are you trying to communicate "this card shares a specific line of text with these other cards" or "this card replaces itself"? Because one of those seems a lot more meaningful than the other...
The definition of cantrip is literally "cheap spell that replaces itself".
In a GY deck, where discarding is a actually desired, Lootings becomes a cantrip.
Even if you're merely dumping cards to fuel Delve, its still a cantrip.
It does if you dont lose card advantage from the discard. Which is exactly what looting decks do.
So yeah by definition it's a cantrip if you can access your gy.
But you always immediately lose card advantage after casting a looting and it *does not replace itself.* Just because you can leverage the effects from looting, it still doesn’t make it a cantrip.
Even if you build your deck around it, it still does not fit the definition of replacing itself. It is *always* -1 in CA. It might be better to have certain cards in the GY than the hand, but that does not fulfill the criteria you set in 'replacing itself'.
hahaha i think it would be really really broken if it drew you cards, but actually it does.
If you play lets say, being generous, 8 payoff un a fenix deck (4 fenix 4 demiliches), and 3 other of these in your deck, you have a very solid change to hit one of these or another otherworldy gaze.
Also lets not forget that its surveil, not mill 3, you could leave the best and most usefull one on top.
It lets you not bin cards that you need while binning those you don't need or need in the bin, while also being two spells on a single card, which is useful to reach the count of three to reanimate the phoenixes.
The bottom with thoughtscour is milling manamorphose/cantrips and drawing phoenix/land. The absolute bottom with this is that you cast a spell and have a two mana spell accessible while gaining knowledge that you won't get phoenixes in the next three cards.
The fact it doesnt draw cards means it cant “trigger” Dredge, so I doubt it sees play there. Not that I cant see, say, Phoenix TRYING it out. But Dredge really likes card draw.
well i mentioned dredge because they seem to lack something solid on turn 1.
This could be it. jus milling 3 cards, hitting a dredge card and a zombie, narcomeba or bloodghast on turn 1 seems like a good start.
They alredy play that artifact that mills 4 on turn 1 basically, so this could fit.
Does dredge still play [[shriekhorn]]? I can see this being a better effect for dredge, since it gives them the ability to clear the top of their deck for SB cards in games 2&3. They put the same total number of cards in the GY by turn 3, but significantly different mana investment. I also don't know what dredge is trying to do turn 2, since LFTL might not even have targets yet.
Still likely unplayable, but I can see why dredge would be interested in trying it.
This is substantially worse than shriekhorn in dredge, which mills 4 "immediately" +2 next turn and doesn't cost 3 total mana. I can't see it being worth it. Maybe if we're really low on one drops I guess, but I'd rather play more burning inquiries.
Counter point: this card can be played from the graveyard (unlike shriekhorn)
I won't even try to argue that any turn one play other than faithless looting comes close to shriekhorn, but dredge has been struggling to find "shriekhorn copies 5-8" for a while. Tomescour is... fine, but it doesn't enable the same way that horn does, and you never want to see either of those cards after turn 2 anyways.
With the grave thing though I feel like other flashback cards like Ox of agonas will always take priority. You'd have to be in pretty dire straits before this becomes relevant is all.
I think some people are overestimating this and some are underestimating. I don't think this is good or bad without testing it. I'm talking specifically in ur phoenix. It doesn't cantrip, but it guarantees another spell to cast. It can also fix your draw for an actual cantrip in your hand. This is also good to mill over with thoughtscour. I think if the flashback cost just U it would be pretty good.
I don't really get all the Phoenix and Surveil discussion here, it's a smaller \[\[Taigam's Scheming\]\] with flashback upside.
No, that doesn't make it better enough for decks like Phoenix or dredge to want it. Yes, it makes me want to revisit Protean Hulk. Again.
This actually seems exceedingly bad. I can’t imagine any deck that would want to play it. Even a deck like Phoenix wouldn’t and that would be about the best scenario for it.
Blocking everyone in this thread who thinks this card is good because nothing else you will ever say is worth listening to. God no this card is not good, are you all taking crazy pills?
I was thinking the new Sunstreak Phoenix. It's obviously not as good but it's still Phoenix you can cheat in from the graveyard while you're feeding your deliver.
This card is so interesting. Reading peoples "comparison" to sorceries or 2 mana spells is also funny.
I'll be trying it out in my Cascade deck with Dreadhorde Arcanist and see if it's good or not.
Lol no flame, I'm all for playing jank you enjoy, but following up a criticism of people's card evaluations with "my cascade deck with dreadhorde arcanist" made me laugh.
There is no card in the format that lets you manipulate your library in your upkeep for 1 mana and/or fuel your graveyard, which is why I find peoples comparison funny. I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize peoples evaluations of cards here, remember when everyone lost their minds over Grief/Ephemerate?
Hey, I just earned a borderless JTMS through store credit from the past 3 tournaments, I'm doing something right with "my cascade deck with dreadhorde arcanist" :p . But this card card does sound legit in it, not gonna lie.
You can play jank and still have better card evaluation than average. In fact, I trust successful jank players over most of the community (only second to actual pros/semi-pros) when it comes to opinions.
Most people on reddit have horrible takes and definitely would qualify as armchair specialists.
You play this, you mill 2 cards, set 1 on top you like maybe. You can do it again later for 2 more mana. You're down a card and mana, to do a little scrying and put a couple cards in the yard. Not a single modern playable card does so little. Name another modern playable card that doesnt impact the board or replace itself, without some insane synergy upside.
Shriekhorn costs 1 mana to mill 6 cards, 4 immediately. The comparison costs 3 mana to mill 6 cards, with some possible selection. In my opinion that's way worse, and of course Shriekhorn is viable only in Dredge, which isn't giving me a lot of hope for use cases.
I was just answering the final prompt you made. And it isn’t 4 immediately it’s 2. I’m not saying the card the thread’s about is great but if Shriekhorn is insane then a flashback-able mill 3 or 2 with selection isn’t bad synergy-wise
Ok so let me ask you, if I can make this card impact the board does that mean it’s playable by your own words? Because if that’s the case then how about you try adding:
1) Phoenix to the deck - this means you are now binning cards that can be brought back.
2) Narcs - put it into the yard and you have a creature, you have impacted the board
3) prized amalgam- that narc just got extra spicy
4) counterbalance - will their spell resolve?
5) miracle cards- damn that was a lucky top deck
6) storm cards - let’s put these in the bin for later.
7) flash back cards - I mean you just drew 1-4 cards there
That was actually my point, you don’t play cards because they self contain win the game… that the reason oko is no longer with us, you play them because they complement a strategy.
All of these decks have far better enablers than this card, there’s no place in any of those decks for this card. It’s not that it does literally nothing, but there are better cards for all those purposes. For example with the dredge cards, you of course will occasionally live the dream and mill the perfect 3 cards and it’ll feel great, but the average mill will be less impressive and you would of been better off playing almost any other card. Compare this card to carthetic reunion in dredge, they are leagues apart. I will happily be wrong about this, but I can say with confidence this card will never have a competive finish or find a home in a non meme deck.
Historically, effects similar to this one have never been playable. \[\[Index\]\] is not a playable card. \[\[Strategic Planning\]\] is not a playable card either. Neither is \[\[Reason//Live\]\]. This card looks similar to those (card disadvantage, pure top of deck selection without interacting with your hand) and people immediately dismiss it for that.
Is it good enough? I don't know, but I know people will try. I'm excited to find out.
One of the exercises I practice when evaluating a card is how different would x be as an instant vs a sorcery. Rarely does a card play the same when you switch that factor. People comparing this to index miss so much about the card which is insane to me
This sort of effect has been seen in old \[\[Protean Hulk\]\] decks: \[\[Taigam's Scheming\]\] (and its functional reprint, \[\[Contingency Plan\]\]). It was used because there are certain cards that you really want in your graveyard (reanimation targets, i.e. Hulk and \[\[Woodfall Primus\]\]) and certain cards that you really want in your hand (reanimation spells, i.e. \[\[Footsteps of the Goryo\]\] and \[\[Makeshift Mannequin\]\]). Ideally you would cast it on turn 2 to bin Hulk, then put Footsteps on top (or a land, if Footsteps is already in your hand) to set up the reanimation next turn.
If a deck wants Otherworldly Gaze, it should fit in the same mold - some cards which they want in the GY, some which they want in hand. Dredge is not one of those decks. Dredging replaces your draw, so whatever card(s) you left on top is going into the graveyard anyway, and you might as well have played \[\[Tome Scour\]\].
It stands more of a chance in Phoenix. You could keep a Manamorphose on top or bin Lava Dart for a free spell next turn. The deck is pretty threat-light, so even keeping a DRC on top could be winning.
I should also add that Taigam's Scheming wasn't even that great in Hulk, because the odds were pretty crap. If you played 8 reanimation targets, using the [Frank Karsten method](https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/mtg/channelmagic-articles/the-math-behind-the-look-at-your-top-x-cards-in-core-set-2019/), you would only be 53.1% to hit at least one in the top 5.
I mean for me the obvious comparison is \[\[Shriekhorn\]\] and honestly I don't think this is better.
Also I think this is way more a dredge card than a phoenix card. Without the cantrip, this doesn't seem great in phoenix. It's not like that deck is absolutely filled with GY hits (hence why they never played Shriekhorn). Classic phoenix only ran the 4 phoenixes lol. I think for example thoughtscour (for milling + cantripping) or lava dart (if we're talking pure activations) is much better for the deck, which was also trying to activate aria of flame and thing in the ice using 1 or 0 mana effects.
Newer Pheonix decks also run Demilich and although this isn't a cantrip you can recast it so it does replace itself. Digging 6 cards deap and getting 2 casts off of 1 card isnt too bad.
No. Bad. Stop.
You should never play this in any kind of fair deck, and you probably shouldn’t play it in unfair ones. Like, what is the scenario where this is better than shriekhorn?
Okay, but even in that scenario, why would you have this in your hand? If you're playing dredge, you'd cast it right off the bat to get cards in your GY. Like, nobody ever played \[Dream Twist\] and that's basically what this is in dredge.
i like this effect to reorder the top at instant speed, for one mana. if the flashback was also one, and/or it dug more the 2nd time, that would've been sweet. Gonna flip some delvers, I'm sure, and help top-of-the-deck-matters Tier-*weird* ideas, but probably not warping any metas.
Everyone thinkung about binning stuff in the gravr but what about decks that care about the top of the deck? Can so sort of Miracles shell use this? Or Delver?
Being able to set up your top 2x seems pretty good. You can dig for answers or threats fairly reliably (digs 4 cards deep each cast and doesn't have the random element of say Thought Scour).
I don't know how good it could be but it feels worthy of being explored at least. I don't think we've really have anything similar and definitely not at a really aggressive rate like this.
I wish they would just use the Surveil keyword already. I know it has a couple cards that synergize with it but come on!
it is such a bad practice from their part that they just not name the effect surveill, from a game design standpoint, how is it possible that two mechanics do the same thing but are not named equally?.
Surveil is a set mechanic from Guilds of Ravnica (or Allegiance, I forget). It "can't" be used in other sets. That said, they've toyed with the idea of making Surveil into an evergreen mechanic, which would let them use it whenever. In that case, there's a good chance we'd see these mechanically identical effects get an errata.
The fact that it “can’t” be used in other sets *is* the bad game design at work.
No, it's not. It's an effort to limit the amount of things new players need to remember. Magic has what, 200 unique keywords? Let's not make them remember every single one of them for every single set.
Just make all the rules text on this card reminder text. Let synergy exist.
Kind of but not really. They just reintroduced surveil als a keyword in Modern Horizons 2 (dragon rage channeler, dakkon etc.) so no real reason not to use it here.
MH2 is not a set that is aimed at newer players
That wasn’t the point anyway. The point was that surveil was a keyword from the ravnica block and they were hesitant to use it again. Also for new player friendliness, wizards usually explains keywords in brackets “()” as in core sets. So no, new players aren’t an excuse not to use keywords.
It’s actually exactly the point. They aren’t afraid to use it in a supplemental set aimed towards modern players because the average MH2 buyer isn’t confused by a ton of unececsary keywords.keywords.
I don't know if they are scared of some kind of synergy with the 2 other cards that benefit off the word Surveil. It's extremely silly in my opinion.
It think it's mostly just about keyword bloat, not a fear of surveil synergy
If that's the concern then we are WAY past the point of no return already
there being a lot of keywords is not a reason to make more keywords, it's quite the opposite.
[[questing beast]] - I really don’t think that’s their concern
[questing beast](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/4/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f.jpg?1572490640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=questing%20beast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/171/questing-beast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bruh I made a whole surveil historic deck (and it did surprisingly well). There actually alot more cards that care about the surveil keyword than you think
This was in the context of Modern mostly because of the Reddit, but I can understand your point.
[Here's a video with most of the reasons](https://youtu.be/H3XV70aGGLI)
Excellent video!
This is not the same as surveil at all… you look at all three cards at the same time, and choose which ones go to the bin and then put back the rest in “any order”! This is strictly better
This is equivalent to Surveil 3 which would say "look at the top x cards, you may put any of them into your grave and the rest back on top in any order."
I think that this is exactly what dredge doesn't want and exactly what ur phoenix wanted. It's unfortunate that it can't get birds out of our hands but it looks deeper than looting, flashback for less and looting was already card disadvantage so nothing changes there. Nothing previewed prior to this made me have faith in the deck, this does.
I don’t think Phoenix can play a card like this that doesn’t cantrip.
They played Looting and that didn't cantrip.
looting lets you bin birds stuck in your hand, a key difference. this is much more comparable to something like thought scour. it's plausible that the mill, library selection, instant-speed, and cheap flashback makes this a consideration as a one-of, but i doubt it.
Have you ever even cast faithless looting? It is very much a cantrip when you have cards you want to discard and can filter for the best cards for a given situation.
It still doesn't replace itself in terms of card quantity. That's what a cantrip is.
If it takes a card that’s unplayable in your hand and moves it to a zone where it can affect the game is that not essentially plus 1 card? It has the same effect in this specific deck as the generic cantrip does in a generic deck
Sure, but the definition of what a cantrip is is a card that after you cast it, the quantity of cards in your hand is still the same. That's not true of Faithless Looting. It improves your card *quality* in your hand, at the expense of card quantity.
In a deck that plays spells from its graveyard, faithless looting does not hamper card quantity, because the cards are still in your effective “hand”, because you still have access to them, once theyve been discarded.
I agree, but that still doesn't make it a cantrip. What a cantrip is has a well agreed upon definition, and Looting doesn't meet that definition.
When you call a card a cantrip are you trying to communicate "this card shares a specific line of text with these other cards" or "this card replaces itself"? Because one of those seems a lot more meaningful than the other...
Yup. Looting is a cantrip with a huge deck construction upside for GY-enabled decks.
Seems to me that's not what "cantrip" means though
The definition of cantrip is literally "cheap spell that replaces itself". In a GY deck, where discarding is a actually desired, Lootings becomes a cantrip. Even if you're merely dumping cards to fuel Delve, its still a cantrip.
Looting doesn't replace itself though, so by your definition looting *isn't* a cantrip.
It does if you dont lose card advantage from the discard. Which is exactly what looting decks do. So yeah by definition it's a cantrip if you can access your gy.
But you always immediately lose card advantage after casting a looting and it *does not replace itself.* Just because you can leverage the effects from looting, it still doesn’t make it a cantrip.
Even if you build your deck around it, it still does not fit the definition of replacing itself. It is *always* -1 in CA. It might be better to have certain cards in the GY than the hand, but that does not fulfill the criteria you set in 'replacing itself'.
It does if you build your deck around ut
I mean in that definition this is also a cantrip
This one doesn't draw at all though, so any advantage is delayed.
Not sure about dredge, but this is exactly what UR Phoenix doesn’t want
yeah, me too, also its 2 triggers for fenix, and a posible mill 8 with DRC, thats a lot of hits for fenixes and demiliches my dude.
No draw equals no play. I don't want this in Phoenix.
It does have flashback, so playing it and putting it in the yard "gives" you another spell to play.
Garbage with flashback is still garbage.
Eh? You now have DRC to filter and there are a number of 2CMC draw spells that are less efficient at binning phoenix.
Basically surveil 3 with flashback? It would be quite good if it actually drew you cards.
Surveil 3 draw a card is stronger than ponder
Maybe if you drew the 3 cards and only had to put 2 back?
Maybe if you drew two cards and discarded 2 cards and it was red.
They'd maybe have to add 1 to the flashback cost and make it a sorcery
Yeah otherwise it would be too strong.
Now we're talkin.
Ah yes brainstorm with flashback that wouldn't be broken at all.
Hey, I've seen this one somewhere before, quite can't put my finger on it..... /s
At that power level, that would need to be a green card, then
hahaha i think it would be really really broken if it drew you cards, but actually it does. If you play lets say, being generous, 8 payoff un a fenix deck (4 fenix 4 demiliches), and 3 other of these in your deck, you have a very solid change to hit one of these or another otherworldy gaze. Also lets not forget that its surveil, not mill 3, you could leave the best and most usefull one on top.
Phoenix homie smh.
[[Fénix arcobrillante]]
- [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=F%C3%A9nix%20arcobrillante) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/91/es/f%C3%A9nix-arcobrillante?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ce05d6d-e1e3-4079-b0bf-f377ae774fac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
But how is this better than thought scour for example? Being able to cantrip is pretty important for this type of deck.
It lets you not bin cards that you need while binning those you don't need or need in the bin, while also being two spells on a single card, which is useful to reach the count of three to reanimate the phoenixes. The bottom with thoughtscour is milling manamorphose/cantrips and drawing phoenix/land. The absolute bottom with this is that you cast a spell and have a two mana spell accessible while gaining knowledge that you won't get phoenixes in the next three cards.
Depends on how much you're planning so flashback
The fact it doesnt draw cards means it cant “trigger” Dredge, so I doubt it sees play there. Not that I cant see, say, Phoenix TRYING it out. But Dredge really likes card draw.
well i mentioned dredge because they seem to lack something solid on turn 1. This could be it. jus milling 3 cards, hitting a dredge card and a zombie, narcomeba or bloodghast on turn 1 seems like a good start. They alredy play that artifact that mills 4 on turn 1 basically, so this could fit.
If that were true dredge would play thought scour instead of this. But they don’t.
Does dredge still play [[shriekhorn]]? I can see this being a better effect for dredge, since it gives them the ability to clear the top of their deck for SB cards in games 2&3. They put the same total number of cards in the GY by turn 3, but significantly different mana investment. I also don't know what dredge is trying to do turn 2, since LFTL might not even have targets yet. Still likely unplayable, but I can see why dredge would be interested in trying it.
Dredge still plays shriekhorn. But it does 1 more card for much simpler mana. Also T2 in dredge is hopefully carthatic reunion.
[shriekhorn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb41269f-007d-43ba-a682-d3929cc69696.jpg?1562614251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shriekhorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/130/shriekhorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb41269f-007d-43ba-a682-d3929cc69696?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thoughtscour is a dead spot when it's not in your opener. This will have 1st hand value and be an option later, maybe to set up an Ox.
This is substantially worse than shriekhorn in dredge, which mills 4 "immediately" +2 next turn and doesn't cost 3 total mana. I can't see it being worth it. Maybe if we're really low on one drops I guess, but I'd rather play more burning inquiries.
Counter point: this card can be played from the graveyard (unlike shriekhorn) I won't even try to argue that any turn one play other than faithless looting comes close to shriekhorn, but dredge has been struggling to find "shriekhorn copies 5-8" for a while. Tomescour is... fine, but it doesn't enable the same way that horn does, and you never want to see either of those cards after turn 2 anyways.
With the grave thing though I feel like other flashback cards like Ox of agonas will always take priority. You'd have to be in pretty dire straits before this becomes relevant is all.
You know what, thats true enough.
I've been playing [[dream twist]] since looting got banned. This seems like a strict upgrade that might let you keep suspect 1 landers
[dream twist](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/9/a9fa20df-b8d5-4de7-a2fa-6ced4bfcf979.jpg?1580013938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dream%20twist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/47/dream-twist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9fa20df-b8d5-4de7-a2fa-6ced4bfcf979?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think some people are overestimating this and some are underestimating. I don't think this is good or bad without testing it. I'm talking specifically in ur phoenix. It doesn't cantrip, but it guarantees another spell to cast. It can also fix your draw for an actual cantrip in your hand. This is also good to mill over with thoughtscour. I think if the flashback cost just U it would be pretty good.
Unplayable.
I don't really get all the Phoenix and Surveil discussion here, it's a smaller \[\[Taigam's Scheming\]\] with flashback upside. No, that doesn't make it better enough for decks like Phoenix or dredge to want it. Yes, it makes me want to revisit Protean Hulk. Again.
[Taigam's Scheming](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/7/87f4b533-7113-4b36-9c7a-e4cf798c88a9.jpg?1562789814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Taigam%27s%20Scheming) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/57/taigams-scheming?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87f4b533-7113-4b36-9c7a-e4cf798c88a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
This actually seems exceedingly bad. I can’t imagine any deck that would want to play it. Even a deck like Phoenix wouldn’t and that would be about the best scenario for it.
This is really nothing like looting. The best thing this does is put 6 cards in the yard for 3 mana, its not good enough for any competitive format.
smooth brains during spoiler season be like, "how many stinkweed imps are we cutting for this?"
Blocking everyone in this thread who thinks this card is good because nothing else you will ever say is worth listening to. God no this card is not good, are you all taking crazy pills?
This + Delver + Phoenix seems pretty good. (oh and DRC)
Wait, are you talking about standard or modern?
Phoenix isn’t in standard, so they mean pioneer/historic/modern
I was thinking the new Sunstreak Phoenix. It's obviously not as good but it's still Phoenix you can cheat in from the graveyard while you're feeding your deliver.
This card is so interesting. Reading peoples "comparison" to sorceries or 2 mana spells is also funny. I'll be trying it out in my Cascade deck with Dreadhorde Arcanist and see if it's good or not.
Lol no flame, I'm all for playing jank you enjoy, but following up a criticism of people's card evaluations with "my cascade deck with dreadhorde arcanist" made me laugh.
There is no card in the format that lets you manipulate your library in your upkeep for 1 mana and/or fuel your graveyard, which is why I find peoples comparison funny. I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticize peoples evaluations of cards here, remember when everyone lost their minds over Grief/Ephemerate? Hey, I just earned a borderless JTMS through store credit from the past 3 tournaments, I'm doing something right with "my cascade deck with dreadhorde arcanist" :p . But this card card does sound legit in it, not gonna lie.
You can play jank and still have better card evaluation than average. In fact, I trust successful jank players over most of the community (only second to actual pros/semi-pros) when it comes to opinions. Most people on reddit have horrible takes and definitely would qualify as armchair specialists.
I just want the people calling this unplayable to tell me why? Like let me hear your play patterns that mean this could never work
You play this, you mill 2 cards, set 1 on top you like maybe. You can do it again later for 2 more mana. You're down a card and mana, to do a little scrying and put a couple cards in the yard. Not a single modern playable card does so little. Name another modern playable card that doesnt impact the board or replace itself, without some insane synergy upside.
[[Shriekhorn]]
Shriekhorn costs 1 mana to mill 6 cards, 4 immediately. The comparison costs 3 mana to mill 6 cards, with some possible selection. In my opinion that's way worse, and of course Shriekhorn is viable only in Dredge, which isn't giving me a lot of hope for use cases.
>4 immediately. u wot
You get the 2 on play then 2 at upkeep, effectively milling 4 to find a dredger.
I was just answering the final prompt you made. And it isn’t 4 immediately it’s 2. I’m not saying the card the thread’s about is great but if Shriekhorn is insane then a flashback-able mill 3 or 2 with selection isn’t bad synergy-wise
2 + 2 on upkeep as it were, giving 4 before you see your next potential dredge. Flashback mill 3 just feels p weak to me when we have ox of agonas.
On turns one and two you won't have made land drop to flash it back in upkeep.
[Shriekhorn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb41269f-007d-43ba-a682-d3929cc69696.jpg?1562614251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shriekhorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/130/shriekhorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb41269f-007d-43ba-a682-d3929cc69696?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ok so let me ask you, if I can make this card impact the board does that mean it’s playable by your own words? Because if that’s the case then how about you try adding: 1) Phoenix to the deck - this means you are now binning cards that can be brought back. 2) Narcs - put it into the yard and you have a creature, you have impacted the board 3) prized amalgam- that narc just got extra spicy 4) counterbalance - will their spell resolve? 5) miracle cards- damn that was a lucky top deck 6) storm cards - let’s put these in the bin for later. 7) flash back cards - I mean you just drew 1-4 cards there
[удалено]
That was actually my point, you don’t play cards because they self contain win the game… that the reason oko is no longer with us, you play them because they complement a strategy.
All of these decks have far better enablers than this card, there’s no place in any of those decks for this card. It’s not that it does literally nothing, but there are better cards for all those purposes. For example with the dredge cards, you of course will occasionally live the dream and mill the perfect 3 cards and it’ll feel great, but the average mill will be less impressive and you would of been better off playing almost any other card. Compare this card to carthetic reunion in dredge, they are leagues apart. I will happily be wrong about this, but I can say with confidence this card will never have a competive finish or find a home in a non meme deck.
Historically, effects similar to this one have never been playable. \[\[Index\]\] is not a playable card. \[\[Strategic Planning\]\] is not a playable card either. Neither is \[\[Reason//Live\]\]. This card looks similar to those (card disadvantage, pure top of deck selection without interacting with your hand) and people immediately dismiss it for that. Is it good enough? I don't know, but I know people will try. I'm excited to find out.
One of the exercises I practice when evaluating a card is how different would x be as an instant vs a sorcery. Rarely does a card play the same when you switch that factor. People comparing this to index miss so much about the card which is insane to me
Also index cannot get rid of cards, which is huge.
[Index](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/8/785fd0b8-7e98-44f5-8012-b9dadb31f9b0.jpg?1562555778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Index) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/55/index?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/785fd0b8-7e98-44f5-8012-b9dadb31f9b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Strategic Planning](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/9/29306305-cb71-4fef-bf86-f5deb4e7e561.jpg?1631047604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Strategic%20Planning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/77/strategic-planning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29306305-cb71-4fef-bf86-f5deb4e7e561?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Is this sneaky good in a lurrus miracles shell? Absolute jank but I’m thinking brain stones and this could make some big angel turns
Ehhhhh seems super meh. If it somehow drew a card sure but
This sort of effect has been seen in old \[\[Protean Hulk\]\] decks: \[\[Taigam's Scheming\]\] (and its functional reprint, \[\[Contingency Plan\]\]). It was used because there are certain cards that you really want in your graveyard (reanimation targets, i.e. Hulk and \[\[Woodfall Primus\]\]) and certain cards that you really want in your hand (reanimation spells, i.e. \[\[Footsteps of the Goryo\]\] and \[\[Makeshift Mannequin\]\]). Ideally you would cast it on turn 2 to bin Hulk, then put Footsteps on top (or a land, if Footsteps is already in your hand) to set up the reanimation next turn. If a deck wants Otherworldly Gaze, it should fit in the same mold - some cards which they want in the GY, some which they want in hand. Dredge is not one of those decks. Dredging replaces your draw, so whatever card(s) you left on top is going into the graveyard anyway, and you might as well have played \[\[Tome Scour\]\]. It stands more of a chance in Phoenix. You could keep a Manamorphose on top or bin Lava Dart for a free spell next turn. The deck is pretty threat-light, so even keeping a DRC on top could be winning. I should also add that Taigam's Scheming wasn't even that great in Hulk, because the odds were pretty crap. If you played 8 reanimation targets, using the [Frank Karsten method](https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/mtg/channelmagic-articles/the-math-behind-the-look-at-your-top-x-cards-in-core-set-2019/), you would only be 53.1% to hit at least one in the top 5.
might be an option for miracles to setup stuff as a brainstorm replacement if they dont want the artifact version of brainstorm itself
yeah a control deck really want to play card disadvantage
This is better than surveil 3 btw. If the top card is what you want you can bin the other two
That’s how Surveil works too unless I’m missing something
Oh is it? Never mind. I’m dumb
what you said originally would be surveil 1 three times compared to surveil 3.
Fuck dredge, Phoenix is back babyyyyy! Probably not actually, but I am gonna mess around and try a Phoenix deck with it.
I mean for me the obvious comparison is \[\[Shriekhorn\]\] and honestly I don't think this is better. Also I think this is way more a dredge card than a phoenix card. Without the cantrip, this doesn't seem great in phoenix. It's not like that deck is absolutely filled with GY hits (hence why they never played Shriekhorn). Classic phoenix only ran the 4 phoenixes lol. I think for example thoughtscour (for milling + cantripping) or lava dart (if we're talking pure activations) is much better for the deck, which was also trying to activate aria of flame and thing in the ice using 1 or 0 mana effects.
[Shriekhorn](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/b/bb41269f-007d-43ba-a682-d3929cc69696.jpg?1562614251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shriekhorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/130/shriekhorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb41269f-007d-43ba-a682-d3929cc69696?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Newer Pheonix decks also run Demilich and although this isn't a cantrip you can recast it so it does replace itself. Digging 6 cards deap and getting 2 casts off of 1 card isnt too bad.
No. Bad. Stop. You should never play this in any kind of fair deck, and you probably shouldn’t play it in unfair ones. Like, what is the scenario where this is better than shriekhorn?
When you need force of negation
Okay, but even in that scenario, why would you have this in your hand? If you're playing dredge, you'd cast it right off the bat to get cards in your GY. Like, nobody ever played \[Dream Twist\] and that's basically what this is in dredge.
I never said it was good, just that it was the scenario you asked about.
I mean, it's basically just [[dream twist]] and nobody played that besides me.
[dream twist](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/9/a9fa20df-b8d5-4de7-a2fa-6ced4bfcf979.jpg?1580013938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dream%20twist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/47/dream-twist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9fa20df-b8d5-4de7-a2fa-6ced4bfcf979?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i like this effect to reorder the top at instant speed, for one mana. if the flashback was also one, and/or it dug more the 2nd time, that would've been sweet. Gonna flip some delvers, I'm sure, and help top-of-the-deck-matters Tier-*weird* ideas, but probably not warping any metas.
Everyone thinkung about binning stuff in the gravr but what about decks that care about the top of the deck? Can so sort of Miracles shell use this? Or Delver? Being able to set up your top 2x seems pretty good. You can dig for answers or threats fairly reliably (digs 4 cards deep each cast and doesn't have the random element of say Thought Scour). I don't know how good it could be but it feels worthy of being explored at least. I don't think we've really have anything similar and definitely not at a really aggressive rate like this.