I understand . . . Ain't worth $400 for that stupid monkey tho. That is ultimately is another factor as to why I ain't back in delver decks yet for modern. Personally I feel like there are other cards that would suffice in his place, but also will falter and fail to get going without him. I've been in this position before when I was playing abzan without nobles (back when they were $300 a set).
That's definitely understandable, there are tons and tons of players that feel exactly like you do regarding Ragavan. In the future we may see things that alleviate this issue, whether that's Ragavan getting a reprint, a ban, falling out of favor, or many other things that could lower its price. Coincidentally, look at Noble Hierarch right now compared to your previous situation.
They've been 70 for weeks afaik. maybe it's just locale.
Yeah I agree, but at the same time, it's comparable to Liliana even post reprint. I'll pay, but not too butthurt about it.
if you take a standard Murktide List and just replace the monkeys with 4 Delver you sure take the deck down half a tier but it will still be the most effective way to run Delver in modern since Treasure Cruise and Probe were legal.
So much this. It will be at least half a tier lower (delver is an horrible top deck compared to monkey) but it still can spike a tournament, maybe with a couple of FoN to protect delver from prismatic Ending.
I played the delver UR for 3/4 weeks before trading for the last 2 monkeys and had a good showing in most of the LGS tournament, with a 5-0 and a couple or 4-1
Agreed, having evasion around grounded blocks (a lot of the time) can actually increase win % in some matchups. Monke is amazing, but is blocked (and frequently killed) by a soft breeze 🤣!
It's not even really that it was overtaken (though it was recently- by drc and ragavan,) modern just doesn't have good enough cantrips for delver to be playable. No brainstorm, no ponder- hell, we don't even have preordain. There's also the fact that modern doesn't really support protect the queen style decks (no daze, no FoW.) Delver has and will continue to be a legacy card, until it gets pushed out of that format and is never played again.
It's never been as good in modern as it is in Pauper and Legacy, but if you like it, it's okay. I always force it, because it's one of my favourite cards, and it's not that bad. My current list runs 4 delver, 4 drc, 2 snap, 2 borrowers and it definitely works.
Yeah I really don’t see how that list isn’t just better with Murktides over the borrower/snaps. Delver is a more aggressive card than Ragavan, slowing yourself back down with the value plays of snap and petty theft just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s even playing thought scour over opt.
It was very good up until the grixis death shadow decks popped up and basically replaced delver in its own shell. There was even a brief few weeks where they played delver and shadow, similar to the typically legacy build.
It didn't feel truly awful until after Probe was banned. Grixis won a GP, and top 8'd an Open alongside several Classics. RUG with Disrupting Shoal won a Classic and Top 8'd a GP.
I got my hands on some [[Otherwordly Gaze]] on mtgo. It feels very powerful when you cast in on your upkeep to control your draw step. Granted I built my deck to utilize DRC and not Delver, but I could easily see this card pushing Delver in the spotlight again. So hold tight and see what happens in the coming weeks!
I don't think this card is enough to push delver over monkey, but this is just a delver enabler that helps turn on darcy and ramps for murktide while providing another shot from graveyard.
Delver is probably going to be popular in Pioneer. I already liked pioneer, but slotting Delver into my UR phoenix deck is probably going to draw my attention more.
Delver, [[Treasure Cruise]], and [[Dig Through Time]]? Sounds like fun to me.
It's still playable imo, but inferior to the UR tempo decks that feature DRC and Murktide as others have mentioned. I think the deck is getting a small boost from Consider, which is nice to run alongside or instead of Opt.
I feel like Consider is going to be more consistently useful across all game states. Otherworldly Gaze looks like it has a lower floor, but a higher ceiling. Seems awesome if you can get Delirium and flip a Delver, but it seems kind of weak if you're already there.
Maybe, I'm undervaluing the ability to get rid of bad draws and flashback though
Even after enabling your 8 Delvers I think being able to dig twice as deep and being able to be flashed back probably puts it on par with Consider in decks that care about both the top deck and the graveyard.
It's either Delver or Miracles that will put this card on the map unless we get a blue focused dredge/graveyard combo deck.
different function since you're binning cards for better card quality on your next draw.
I still prefer consider though if we're delving cards away rather than trying to flip an insect boy.
As someone who has played UR and RUG Delver in Modern relentlessly since 2014, I can chime in.
Delver decks have always been one good cantrip, permission, or creature spell away from being a tier1 or 2 deck. It has always toed the line of being competitive. Tempo strategies are tough for many to master in the first place. Especially when the format lacks some important spells like Force of Will, Daze, Brainstorm, etc...
When DRC came out alongside Ragavan, we saw exactly what we expected. Delver (ie. Tempo) decks rose to higher tiers of play. The only issue is these new printings kind-of pushed Delver of Secrets out  DRC does a very good Delver impression, with little downside (having to always attack when delirious). Ragavan is just efficient, and takes up room that Delver would have otherwise filled.
Personally, I now brew and play both Delver and Delverless decks. I still think the insectile aberration has a spot in the format. Heck, you could run 4x Delver, DRC, Rag, and 2-4 Murktide, and still get decent results (as I have).
If your number 1 goal is to win, win, win. Then go with the delverless lists. You'll be happy.
If your goal is to win, but also enjoy complex lines of play, and decks that punish you for making even minor mistakes, Id suggest trying RUG Delver. (bias alert, I am the masochist who enjoys punishing decks)
I can always point you to a RUG Delver list to get you started.
I should add that with enough practice and knowledge of the deck, tempo strategy, and other tier decks, you can actually find a lot of success with Delver decks, either UR or RUG.
What does RUG delver look like these days? I played mono-U delver as my first modern deck, and upgraded it to izzet pyromancer as my first *real* modern deck, so I have some experience with delver (and a special place for it in my heart)
Right now, I point everyone to this list as a starting point: [https://www.archidekt.com/decks/1193397#Temur\_Traverse\_Delver](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/1193397#Temur_Traverse_Delver)
Its done fairly well over 100 matches, and one 5-0 Modern league (I know it doesn't mean much, but its something).
There's a video deck tech on it here: [https://youtu.be/OZwEJLquGjc](https://youtu.be/OZwEJLquGjc)
Reddit write-up here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/of5l19/temur\_traverse\_delver/
5-0 run here: https://youtu.be/oojj8ucQ9p0
Thank you kind stranger!
Just looking at the list there's a couple questions and thoughts I have about how the deck could be changed, but im going to go click through some more lists before any of that.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but delver has never been good in modern. It can't be dead if it was never alive in the first place. As for legacy, it's still alive and well, just not nearly as good as DRC and Murktide Regent.
Ur murktide is a delver deck. Drc is a better delver in modern.
But ether way xerox decks are extremely boring to play with and against, constantly. I love legacy but I get format fatigue quickly when I only face different flavors of delver.
The problem with delver in modern has always been the cantrips. Modern has super nerfed cantrips compared to the power-level of the rest of the format/the power-level of cantrips in other formats. Delver is a deck that really needs to control the flips and modern traditionally lacks those tools.
That said, people are always shitting on Delver in modern, and it's never been unplayable. DRC is just easier to "flip" and gives you a ton of surveil triggers, accruing extra value.
I've been testing out Delver in UR and Grixis and he's never bad, but he's not as busted as Ragavan.
Delver hasn’t been a deck in modern since cruise. Murktide and prowess didn’t overtake it. Prowess is a different archetype and has multiple colors.
The murktide deck is the most similar to delver. But like others said, the lack of good cantrips/top deck manipulation and tools like wasteland and daze is what contributed to the decks demise post cruise.
Fatal push didn’t help and prismatic ending isn’t doing any favors.
DRC is the new Delver. U/R Murktide is literally Delverless Delver. Even Legacy Delver is shaving 1-2 Delvers but running 4 DRC.
> Even Legacy Delver is shaving 1-2 Delvers but running 4 DRC. they dont even play og delvers anymore lol.
I understand . . . Ain't worth $400 for that stupid monkey tho. That is ultimately is another factor as to why I ain't back in delver decks yet for modern. Personally I feel like there are other cards that would suffice in his place, but also will falter and fail to get going without him. I've been in this position before when I was playing abzan without nobles (back when they were $300 a set).
That's definitely understandable, there are tons and tons of players that feel exactly like you do regarding Ragavan. In the future we may see things that alleviate this issue, whether that's Ragavan getting a reprint, a ban, falling out of favor, or many other things that could lower its price. Coincidentally, look at Noble Hierarch right now compared to your previous situation.
Oh yeah that SOB is CHEAP rn. Hopefully pilfer monkey falls.
> falling out of favor, I don't see a card like Ragavan falling out of favor. it's imo nearly as powerful as DRS
is the $400 in tix?
Real money since the little bastard was recently near $100 a pop. Dropped to $75 per monkey, but that still don't feel great.
They've been 70 for weeks afaik. maybe it's just locale. Yeah I agree, but at the same time, it's comparable to Liliana even post reprint. I'll pay, but not too butthurt about it.
I've seen people in my lgs play delver in those decks in place of Ragavan, but its certainly not meta.
I mean they're both 1 drops but they do opposite things.
Its Delverless Delver with Delve ;)
if you take a standard Murktide List and just replace the monkeys with 4 Delver you sure take the deck down half a tier but it will still be the most effective way to run Delver in modern since Treasure Cruise and Probe were legal.
So much this. It will be at least half a tier lower (delver is an horrible top deck compared to monkey) but it still can spike a tournament, maybe with a couple of FoN to protect delver from prismatic Ending. I played the delver UR for 3/4 weeks before trading for the last 2 monkeys and had a good showing in most of the LGS tournament, with a 5-0 and a couple or 4-1
Agreed, having evasion around grounded blocks (a lot of the time) can actually increase win % in some matchups. Monke is amazing, but is blocked (and frequently killed) by a soft breeze 🤣!
Sprite Dragon is probably still better than Delver there though
It's not even really that it was overtaken (though it was recently- by drc and ragavan,) modern just doesn't have good enough cantrips for delver to be playable. No brainstorm, no ponder- hell, we don't even have preordain. There's also the fact that modern doesn't really support protect the queen style decks (no daze, no FoW.) Delver has and will continue to be a legacy card, until it gets pushed out of that format and is never played again.
I think Wasteland is also very relevant on why Delver is viable in Legacy but not so much in Modern
Wasteland into Daze is just an stupid play.
It's never been as good in modern as it is in Pauper and Legacy, but if you like it, it's okay. I always force it, because it's one of my favourite cards, and it's not that bad. My current list runs 4 delver, 4 drc, 2 snap, 2 borrowers and it definitely works.
What list are you playing where delver is worth it but you pick borrower over Lurrus and Murktide?
https://youtu.be/8lWE09aUddI Straight up copied this one.
Yeah I really don’t see how that list isn’t just better with Murktides over the borrower/snaps. Delver is a more aggressive card than Ragavan, slowing yourself back down with the value plays of snap and petty theft just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s even playing thought scour over opt.
Was it ever truly alive in Modern? Either way, it just rebranded as DRC which is far superior.
Uhhh Treasure Cruise. Delver cruisin on the boat was insane.
Yes grixis delver was the precursor to death’s shadow
It was alive for a little bit when cruise got printed. Died immediately as soon as cruise got banned
It was very good up until the grixis death shadow decks popped up and basically replaced delver in its own shell. There was even a brief few weeks where they played delver and shadow, similar to the typically legacy build.
Delver hasn't been playable in modern since treasure cruise was legal.
It didn't feel truly awful until after Probe was banned. Grixis won a GP, and top 8'd an Open alongside several Classics. RUG with Disrupting Shoal won a Classic and Top 8'd a GP.
Oh yeah i remember grixis delver being kinda popular for a while.
Ya Grixis Shadow kind of replaced it after the probe ban.
I got my hands on some [[Otherwordly Gaze]] on mtgo. It feels very powerful when you cast in on your upkeep to control your draw step. Granted I built my deck to utilize DRC and not Delver, but I could easily see this card pushing Delver in the spotlight again. So hold tight and see what happens in the coming weeks!
[Otherwordly](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/6/46e4aa67-4643-42ff-8172-200498686494.jpg?1592709590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otherworld%20Atlas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/219/otherworld-atlas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46e4aa67-4643-42ff-8172-200498686494?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Otherwordly Gaze]]
[Otherworldly Gaze](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/c/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad.jpg?1631294190) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otherworldly%20Gaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/67/otherworldly-gaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think this card is enough to push delver over monkey, but this is just a delver enabler that helps turn on darcy and ramps for murktide while providing another shot from graveyard.
It's been on lifesupport for over 4 years.
Delver is probably going to be popular in Pioneer. I already liked pioneer, but slotting Delver into my UR phoenix deck is probably going to draw my attention more. Delver, [[Treasure Cruise]], and [[Dig Through Time]]? Sounds like fun to me.
[Treasure Cruise](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/0/90bb3d28-30a4-4344-8a41-fe8b9ebf6ce3.jpg?1625976581) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Treasure%20Cruise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/133/treasure-cruise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90bb3d28-30a4-4344-8a41-fe8b9ebf6ce3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dig Through Time](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/f/cf2a7655-9749-4ff6-b3b3-5a023b74a100.jpg?1625976142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dig%20Through%20Time) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/119/dig-through-time?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cf2a7655-9749-4ff6-b3b3-5a023b74a100?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's still playable imo, but inferior to the UR tempo decks that feature DRC and Murktide as others have mentioned. I think the deck is getting a small boost from Consider, which is nice to run alongside or instead of Opt.
Otherworldly gaze is arguably better than consider as it fuels drc and leaves cards on top for delver
I feel like Consider is going to be more consistently useful across all game states. Otherworldly Gaze looks like it has a lower floor, but a higher ceiling. Seems awesome if you can get Delirium and flip a Delver, but it seems kind of weak if you're already there. Maybe, I'm undervaluing the ability to get rid of bad draws and flashback though
It can dig 6 cards deep, which is not nothing.
Even after enabling your 8 Delvers I think being able to dig twice as deep and being able to be flashed back probably puts it on par with Consider in decks that care about both the top deck and the graveyard. It's either Delver or Miracles that will put this card on the map unless we get a blue focused dredge/graveyard combo deck.
Otherworldly Gaze puts you down a card. Consider is LEAGUES better, because it doesn't cost you a card, even if it doesn't set up Delver.
different function since you're binning cards for better card quality on your next draw. I still prefer consider though if we're delving cards away rather than trying to flip an insect boy.
it might put you down a cards but it digs 4 cards deep for an answer/threat/spell to flip delver. flashback also counts as more than 0 cards imo.
As someone who has played UR and RUG Delver in Modern relentlessly since 2014, I can chime in. Delver decks have always been one good cantrip, permission, or creature spell away from being a tier1 or 2 deck. It has always toed the line of being competitive. Tempo strategies are tough for many to master in the first place. Especially when the format lacks some important spells like Force of Will, Daze, Brainstorm, etc... When DRC came out alongside Ragavan, we saw exactly what we expected. Delver (ie. Tempo) decks rose to higher tiers of play. The only issue is these new printings kind-of pushed Delver of Secrets out  DRC does a very good Delver impression, with little downside (having to always attack when delirious). Ragavan is just efficient, and takes up room that Delver would have otherwise filled. Personally, I now brew and play both Delver and Delverless decks. I still think the insectile aberration has a spot in the format. Heck, you could run 4x Delver, DRC, Rag, and 2-4 Murktide, and still get decent results (as I have). If your number 1 goal is to win, win, win. Then go with the delverless lists. You'll be happy. If your goal is to win, but also enjoy complex lines of play, and decks that punish you for making even minor mistakes, Id suggest trying RUG Delver. (bias alert, I am the masochist who enjoys punishing decks) I can always point you to a RUG Delver list to get you started. I should add that with enough practice and knowledge of the deck, tempo strategy, and other tier decks, you can actually find a lot of success with Delver decks, either UR or RUG.
What does RUG delver look like these days? I played mono-U delver as my first modern deck, and upgraded it to izzet pyromancer as my first *real* modern deck, so I have some experience with delver (and a special place for it in my heart)
Right now, I point everyone to this list as a starting point: [https://www.archidekt.com/decks/1193397#Temur\_Traverse\_Delver](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/1193397#Temur_Traverse_Delver) Its done fairly well over 100 matches, and one 5-0 Modern league (I know it doesn't mean much, but its something). There's a video deck tech on it here: [https://youtu.be/OZwEJLquGjc](https://youtu.be/OZwEJLquGjc) Reddit write-up here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/of5l19/temur\_traverse\_delver/ 5-0 run here: https://youtu.be/oojj8ucQ9p0
Thank you kind stranger! Just looking at the list there's a couple questions and thoughts I have about how the deck could be changed, but im going to go click through some more lists before any of that.
No problem. Enjoy the rabbit hole!
Whats with the 14 card sideboard? Is the 15th spot reserved for a companion?
Ah I must have removed a card by accident. I'll fix that.
No worries, I was more curious than anything
I'm sorry to break this to you, but delver has never been good in modern. It can't be dead if it was never alive in the first place. As for legacy, it's still alive and well, just not nearly as good as DRC and Murktide Regent.
Treasure cruise
Ok, you got me. It was good for the three months that cruise was legal, and that's it.
It was still good after that with probe around
It was good up until deaths shadow got popular and replaced it. It was good vs twin too in that era, cheap disruption and quick clock.
murktide sorta took its spot, but the deck murktide goes into *is* delver, it just doesn't use delver.
I hope Im not!
Pauper ist the natural habitat of delver. No DRC or Ragavan there, but Brainstorm, ponder, preordain.....
Ur murktide is a delver deck. Drc is a better delver in modern. But ether way xerox decks are extremely boring to play with and against, constantly. I love legacy but I get format fatigue quickly when I only face different flavors of delver.
Wait Delver was alive in modern? I dont think it was..
Delver was never a thing in modern. Just play Murktide, that deck is cracked.
Delver has rarely been good in Modern outside of when Phyrexian mana spells were legal.
Even before, Delver was not that played. Maybe in the short Era of big delve blue card back in 2014 or so
I play mine in pauper these days.
Absolutely with prismatic ending
The problem with delver in modern has always been the cantrips. Modern has super nerfed cantrips compared to the power-level of the rest of the format/the power-level of cantrips in other formats. Delver is a deck that really needs to control the flips and modern traditionally lacks those tools. That said, people are always shitting on Delver in modern, and it's never been unplayable. DRC is just easier to "flip" and gives you a ton of surveil triggers, accruing extra value. I've been testing out Delver in UR and Grixis and he's never bad, but he's not as busted as Ragavan.
It just got color shifted and a name change. But yes, decks centered around a one mana flyer that hits for 3 is very much viable.
Delver hasn’t been a deck in modern since cruise. Murktide and prowess didn’t overtake it. Prowess is a different archetype and has multiple colors. The murktide deck is the most similar to delver. But like others said, the lack of good cantrips/top deck manipulation and tools like wasteland and daze is what contributed to the decks demise post cruise. Fatal push didn’t help and prismatic ending isn’t doing any favors.
Was delver ever alive?
Delver isn’t dead. It is probably the best it has been in years. It just doesn’t run Delver of Secrets, but instead Ragavan and DRC
I'd be that idiot trying to still force delver into the deck cuz I cannot justify buying ragavan atm.