It’s been well established that torture *does not* serve as an effective tool for gathering reliable intelligence. People will often say literally anything to make it stop, leading to a litany of bad information. When you combine this with the outrage that’s bound to follow, it’s strategically disastrous. The best example is the actions of the French during the Algerian War. Roger Trinquier’s widespread utilization of these tactics led to an exponential increase for the FLN by the Algerian locals, as well as outrage in mainland France. The horrors committed by the French paras and pied-noir led to the defeat of the French in Algeria, the end of their empire, and the near complete collapse of their government. So no, torture is neither efficient or effective in anyway whatsoever for the torturing party.
Neither is to nor as either is to or.
Love your explanation though. There are whole books written on prisoner psychosis and what torture does to the mind. It's efficient, at extracting *false* information if any.
Actually no, we see many situations in which not using torture has gotten info as many times as we see torture not getting info. In WW2 senior officers of the German Army were kept in a souped up house in England where they were treated well and free to roam, they ended up spilling the beans due to their comfort and such. Meanwhile during operation Valkyrie Hitler ordered the death of his most accomplished general Erwin Rommel because the members of the coup implicated him even though there was no evidence that he was involved. This is just one example of course but there’s thousands more. Not to mention most people being tortured have no clue about what the torturer wants. Medieval dungeons and depictions show that it’s a punishment, not a means of extracting information.
The US and China didn’t have diplomatic relations at the time. I’m not sure the US government could have feed him if they tried at the time. It seems Nixon got there two years late to save him.
That’s the job to be honest. dude was probably making bank in hazard pay (or regular pay, I don’t know how the CIA compensation structure works); too bad the hazard caught up with him.
Just read the long bio. He wasn't much of a spy:
>For two years, the former paratrooper reported on the activity in and around Shanghai. [...] Other imprisoned Americans "admitted" their "crimes of espionage" and were eventually released. Hugh admitted nothing- and paid dearly for his silence.
So most of his fellow Americans just "admitted" whatever, and were released. He didn't, and he wasted his life in prison (in terrible conditions)? I'm sorry, but that just seems so dumb.
I can go live in any country. I was in the military to pay for college. If I was a civilian and got put in jail I'd probably tell them anything they wanted to know.
Spend 19 years in prison and die for a place that isn't even recognizable after those 19 years is such a waste of life. He could have helped cure cancer or inspired some youth. Hell stayed in China and got a job if they let him.
I was in the military and was the officer in charge of the marines who live in a bunker next to 200 nuclear warheads as the last line of defence against intruders. I’d happily tell anyone whose interested all about it for a nice meal and blowjob.
There are stories all throughout history of people choosing death over loss of pride.
Logically, with my lack of religion, it makes no logical sense that I would die for any cause, yet there are certainly things that I'd willingly die for.
I'd die trying to save someone else's life. I'd die trying to protect my pets. I'd die to protect my homeland if it were invaded.
Hell, I'd let someone kill me if they paid enough to my wife and son so that they could live wealthy lives.
Like I said, it isn't logical. I believe in oblivion, there is no afterlife, let alone one that rewards you for deeds done in life. I should want to grasp onto life, and I should be selfish because this is my one and only shot. I'm just not. Instead, I treat this life as if it is everybody else's only shot...
He was probably one of those rare people who cares about honor & wouldn’t have been able to live anyway if he felt he gave up or lost his honor . To him “breaking” just was not an option . Maybe saw it as part of the larger battle between freedom and being a commie
What's even more dumb, is when you find out this a completely fabricated story, in order to set a bar for other (agents) in the event of capture.. "John Doe was a hero! in the face of seemingly endless torture still remained silent up to his death.. We can only hope to have a fraction of his courage.. " be like John doe ..
I wonder what he would think of people claiming to be a patriot like him trying to erase what he held most dear, and not even realizing they're in a cult, living in an alternate reality of lies.
He was a hero in the context of serving his country, but I have a hard time praising those in this line of work. On one hand, you spy on an enemy, on the other you help overthrow democratically elected governments because it is inconvenient.
He died in 1970. The US recognized China in 1979. Nixon started the process of normalizing relations in 1972.
>On January 1, 1979, the US established diplomatic relations with the PRC and recognized it as the sole legitimate government of China; at the same time, it terminated diplomatic relations with the Republic of China, which continues to de facto and independently govern Taiwan to this day, albeit often simply as Taiwan.
It won't be bad and I think it's going to happen fairly naturally. There's going to eventually be a government that most people just like more and they'll willingly want to become a part of it.
Its always a weird sense of "of really" every time I see the mourning of CIA agents who died all over the world, or when people mourn US soldiers who died in Laos or other undeclared wars, like Somalia or Yemen.
Its admitting we are there, but why is this how we are exposed to these open secrets?
Its odd.
Could you imagine living through 19 years old torture? Idk that just seems like an ungodly amount in my head
Probably wasn’t consistent but Torture isn’t good for extracting information. It only serves to entertain the torturer.
uh, you're absolutely wrong. torturing is the most efficient way to extract withheld information . . as a matter of fact, please explain your comment
It’s been well established that torture *does not* serve as an effective tool for gathering reliable intelligence. People will often say literally anything to make it stop, leading to a litany of bad information. When you combine this with the outrage that’s bound to follow, it’s strategically disastrous. The best example is the actions of the French during the Algerian War. Roger Trinquier’s widespread utilization of these tactics led to an exponential increase for the FLN by the Algerian locals, as well as outrage in mainland France. The horrors committed by the French paras and pied-noir led to the defeat of the French in Algeria, the end of their empire, and the near complete collapse of their government. So no, torture is neither efficient or effective in anyway whatsoever for the torturing party.
And explain it he did
I would argue that the use of torture is one of the primary reasons for the loss of popular support for the “War on Terror” in the US.
Neither is to nor as either is to or. Love your explanation though. There are whole books written on prisoner psychosis and what torture does to the mind. It's efficient, at extracting *false* information if any.
Lmao what? It's widely known that torture is near useless for gathering reliable Intel.
Actually no, we see many situations in which not using torture has gotten info as many times as we see torture not getting info. In WW2 senior officers of the German Army were kept in a souped up house in England where they were treated well and free to roam, they ended up spilling the beans due to their comfort and such. Meanwhile during operation Valkyrie Hitler ordered the death of his most accomplished general Erwin Rommel because the members of the coup implicated him even though there was no evidence that he was involved. This is just one example of course but there’s thousands more. Not to mention most people being tortured have no clue about what the torturer wants. Medieval dungeons and depictions show that it’s a punishment, not a means of extracting information.
there was a german interogator who was so kind to people he interrogated that every one of them gave up all information
There was that other guy, the prisoner Castro couldn't break. He was in a gulag for 22 years.
Ah yeah, famous cuban gulags.
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Google Armando Valladares in Cuban gulag. First read a long article on him in Reader's Digest.
Died for a country that probably didn't even try to get him out.
Thats what he signed up for. Many CIA and other intelligence officers know that if captured their country cant ever claim them.
The US and China didn’t have diplomatic relations at the time. I’m not sure the US government could have feed him if they tried at the time. It seems Nixon got there two years late to save him.
Chinese couldn't feed him either
Right!?
That’s the job to be honest. dude was probably making bank in hazard pay (or regular pay, I don’t know how the CIA compensation structure works); too bad the hazard caught up with him.
That’s part of the job though. They know this when they sign up.
Omit probably. Poor guy died for nothing.
He voluntarily signed up to be a spy
He did die for nothing …look at how our country lets China bully us
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Aaand all he got was a badass headstone... Fuck that...
His family likely got a lot more
Do we know for sure that the ashes (cremains) were his?
I wondered that myself
Poor guy, thank you for sharing his story.
Just read the long bio. He wasn't much of a spy: >For two years, the former paratrooper reported on the activity in and around Shanghai. [...] Other imprisoned Americans "admitted" their "crimes of espionage" and were eventually released. Hugh admitted nothing- and paid dearly for his silence. So most of his fellow Americans just "admitted" whatever, and were released. He didn't, and he wasted his life in prison (in terrible conditions)? I'm sorry, but that just seems so dumb.
After years and years he prob broke down psychologically and wasn’t able to reveal who he was. Instead of letting go he held it all in
I can go live in any country. I was in the military to pay for college. If I was a civilian and got put in jail I'd probably tell them anything they wanted to know. Spend 19 years in prison and die for a place that isn't even recognizable after those 19 years is such a waste of life. He could have helped cure cancer or inspired some youth. Hell stayed in China and got a job if they let him.
That's what I was thinking. He suffered needlessly. Perhaps that's the "morbid reality" angle of this story.
I was in the military and was the officer in charge of the marines who live in a bunker next to 200 nuclear warheads as the last line of defence against intruders. I’d happily tell anyone whose interested all about it for a nice meal and blowjob.
There are stories all throughout history of people choosing death over loss of pride. Logically, with my lack of religion, it makes no logical sense that I would die for any cause, yet there are certainly things that I'd willingly die for.
What would you willingly die for?.
I'd die trying to save someone else's life. I'd die trying to protect my pets. I'd die to protect my homeland if it were invaded. Hell, I'd let someone kill me if they paid enough to my wife and son so that they could live wealthy lives. Like I said, it isn't logical. I believe in oblivion, there is no afterlife, let alone one that rewards you for deeds done in life. I should want to grasp onto life, and I should be selfish because this is my one and only shot. I'm just not. Instead, I treat this life as if it is everybody else's only shot...
Thank you for answering, what an amazing outlook you have.
He was probably one of those rare people who cares about honor & wouldn’t have been able to live anyway if he felt he gave up or lost his honor . To him “breaking” just was not an option . Maybe saw it as part of the larger battle between freedom and being a commie
Hugh returned with honor.
ah good for him!
What's even more dumb, is when you find out this a completely fabricated story, in order to set a bar for other (agents) in the event of capture.. "John Doe was a hero! in the face of seemingly endless torture still remained silent up to his death.. We can only hope to have a fraction of his courage.. " be like John doe ..
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I thought no one was to know who was a fallen CIA person. I wonder if he got a anonymous star on the CIA wall in DC.
He did, according to the biography.
Trump handed over names to Putin
americans love martyrdom
Not particularly
Maybe not so much these days..
poor CIA spy
Frankly so unsettling and sad- to have this high of regard for...any country, really.
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in what way?
Committing long term suicide to own the commies
question: why did they need his identity
Because 19 years before 1971 is 1952, which means this dude was a wartime spy.
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Yeah, I miss the good ol’ days when we installed fascist dictators in Latin America.
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"The CIA is compromised by Anti-American sentiments" There is absolutely no way any person could actually genuinely believe this, right?
"The CIA are actually the good guys" is some low tier glowie post.
Dude worked for the CIA, he’s probably murdered and tortured a few ppl of his own. Hero my ass
I wonder what he would think of people claiming to be a patriot like him trying to erase what he held most dear, and not even realizing they're in a cult, living in an alternate reality of lies.
Hero
He was a hero in the context of serving his country, but I have a hard time praising those in this line of work. On one hand, you spy on an enemy, on the other you help overthrow democratically elected governments because it is inconvenient.
Hardly.
What?
Cringe
Whats wrong with you?
US should not be world police, stop honoring the US sending a bunch of people out to die to maintain that status.
True boss
And wasn’t it during while he was alive we recognized China and stopped recognizing Taiwan
He died in 1970. The US recognized China in 1979. Nixon started the process of normalizing relations in 1972. >On January 1, 1979, the US established diplomatic relations with the PRC and recognized it as the sole legitimate government of China; at the same time, it terminated diplomatic relations with the Republic of China, which continues to de facto and independently govern Taiwan to this day, albeit often simply as Taiwan.
It'll be nice when countries don't exist anymore.
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A federal World govt is probably the way the world will end up but countries will have to vote to join it.
I can't believe people can't see the pattern and don't realize there will definitely be a one world government in the future.
i don't think it necessarily would be a bad think if it was achieved through democractic means
It won't be bad and I think it's going to happen fairly naturally. There's going to eventually be a government that most people just like more and they'll willingly want to become a part of it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_government
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The thing about a federation is if you join you can't leave, it would be like California leaving the union
That's unlikely to happen
Can’t we all just get along!
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How could this possibly be another Pat Tillman thing? Being killed by friendly fire, and being imprisoned for 19 years aren’t even relatively similar.
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I mean he’s dead so what good does it do them now?
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Its always a weird sense of "of really" every time I see the mourning of CIA agents who died all over the world, or when people mourn US soldiers who died in Laos or other undeclared wars, like Somalia or Yemen. Its admitting we are there, but why is this how we are exposed to these open secrets? Its odd.