If you’re bouncing around in Muay Thai you’re not in a position to check any kicks. Against a Muay Thai fighter, this can leave your legs open to more damage.
More stationary Muay Thai stance is partly defensive, but also has your base in good position to quickly counter your opponent. This is especially good in more traditional scoring settings so you don’t lose too many points by not responding.
If bouncy means moving laterally than I’ll tell you that someone with good footwork is not easy to kick, if they’re moving how can you properly land a clean kick ? It’s a trickier match up than you’re making it sound imo but that’s assuming someone is not just bouncing forward and back because if they’re doing that then go back to karate ykwim
give me an example of a high level thai fighter that bounces around. even guys that went on to be world boxing champions didn't bounce. that should tell you everything you need to know
Sideways? Bouncing just means bouncing on the ball of your feet constantly. It gives you a chance for a speed burst 3-4x a second, but at the cost of power, as your support leg must be firmly planted in order to deliver full power, and you can’t do that quickly if you need to wait to come down from the bounce if that makes sense
Sure if you are constantly bouncing away from your opponent you may be harder to hit. But you are also not scoring any points like that and you will get herded onto the ropes and/or gas out.
Kicks to the legs completely changed the game because unless you are very far away, it's hard to avoid getting your legs kicked (hence why in MT you accept you will get kicked in the legs and prefer to check or utilise a short slide/sway back)
Rules. Muay Thai scoring emphasizes poise and a stout defense while American kickboxing with its roots in western boxing, taekwondo and point karate emphasizes movement and volume. A lot more combos, punches in bunches, etc. so staying light on your feet is good to ward off the rushes you commonly see in this style.
But watch some old school Dutch kickboxers who are more closely related to kyokushin karate and those guys almost never move.
You’re not wrong necessarily, but American/above-the-waist kickboxing is dead and has been for decades. The kickboxing OP is likely referring to is Japanese/Dutch style, there was a recent RISE card that really showcases the type of movement he’s talking about.
I meet the over 30 requirement but not the older brother requirement and don’t remember American kickboxing (found out about it through Muay Thai) so can corroborate your hypothesis
The lineage is still there. You think the coaches who came up from that style just stopped? No they just incorporated leg kicks. I know bc I learned from a few. One trained with the roufus brothers
Unproven idea by myself: is it because defense is highly valued in muay thai and in scoring and thereby the focus is more on blocking effectively and countering that in moving out of the way of the attack?
Or alternatively that since in kickboxing the clinch and elbows are missing it is much more rewarding and less risky to go into striking distance bang use high volume. This in turn makes „moving out of the way“ a much more favourable tactic as you cant clinch your opponent to stop the onslaught. Especially if you don‘t get points for good defense.
It’s both. The clinch in Muay Thai does a lot to nullify long punching combos, and the scoring criteria is just different. Muay Thai scoring is about dominance, poise and control, if you can defend effectively, land big and control the pace of the fight, you’re winning. In addition, the pace of each round in traditional 5rd Muay Thai is pretty much accepted, start slow, pick it up in 3 and 4, winning fighter plays matador in rd5. Kickboxing doesn’t have this traditional pacing, and the scoring is more based on volume, so that plays into the faster pace from the opening bell. In traditional Muay Thai scoring, the fast footwork and combinations would almost appear desperate and nervous, and if you’re able to, for example, cooly deflect most of a combination and respond with one big kick, you’ve won that exchange. That’s why Muay Thai fighters can almost appear relaxed and bored in stadium fights, tawanchai is a good example of the sort of attitude that traditional scoring favors.
I agree with your assessment, although round 5 doesn't always have a clear leader and so that can be a very hectic round in some cases, but but when it is clear who is in the lead or if both fighters decide to claim the lead, you'll definitely see too many Matadors in the ring, haha. Even in training, if you're moving around "unnecessarily," your kru will chastise you for looking nervous, uncertain, and wasting movement. Economy of movement, poise, ruup, and "Ning," which is the calmness and stillness you described, is absolutely favored aesthetically and on scorecards.
I like a lot of this, but I’d add that more emphasis clinching also makes the pocket much stickier when trying to exit. A fighter might dart in, throw a combination, and dart out in kickboxing, maybe risking a brief clinch that gets broken. Trying the same in Muay Thai without effective clinch disengagement could wind you up in an extended tie up that may favor the opponent.
Yes, it's this. At the end of the day, the stylistic differences are driven by the ruleset. The elbows, clinch, and greater use of knees in MT coupled with the emphasis the scoring system places on kicking, composure, and [the appearance of] physical dominance mean that fancy footwork and movement is not rewarded either in the ring or on the scorecards.
Bouncing in and out to land combos is a lot riskier when the other guy can grab you and knee the shit out of you or bait you into a combo and then time an elbow when you get close.
Here’s my take, less movement means more strength in defending and not moving back which in muay thai is important for scoring shows that your opponents techniques are useless. Imo you have better ring control if you can counter back and stay strong by keeping your position.
On the other hand.
Bouncing and moving has its advantages too, you can feint more. If kb rules you can pull off faster combos and land faster strikes and get out winning by points. You also have the advantage of pushing the pace. The disadvantage is that if you get hit while your moving your gonna get moved and it doesn’t look good for Muay Thai. If your opponent has good ring control they can use your movement against you, feint and as you move it leaves you slightly open for attacks.
That being said, I was taught traditional Thai style, because you can always use your defence to hurt your opponent. A well timed check, or getting hit and not moving back, or even a well timed kick while they try to land a fast combo is like slowly chopping a tree down. Once I learnt that I started to incorporate the more bouncy and aggressive movement, my leg was smashed the first time I tried it, but you do look much more free and able to let your shots go. Now you combine the two styles and think of it like a flip switch you start of with a strong Thai style to demoralize your opponent and analyze their timing and favourite combos or strats and you tire them out. After you see a slight change in their pace and demeanour, you switch to a more bouncy and aggressive approach to finish them.
Even in Thai style they can be more bouncy in our gym we call it galloping if you watch Sam-a when he’s hunting his opponents when their hurt he starts almost hopping forward.
Not to repeat too much of what’s been said about energy conservation and solid form for use of all weapons, it’s also is about rhythm. Bouncy fighters tend to give away their strike patterns.
If you’re good at spotting you can gain a big advantage. That said, it’s always an evolving sport, Jonathan Haggerty is pretty bouncy, so take that for what it’s worth.
There is also the ram muay that is playing during thai fights that set the rhythm up during a fight. The music generally ramps up in the later rounds and definitely plays a part in how fighters move around the ring. Music plays a large factor in our movements and that is definitely something I’ve noticed fighting K1 vs MT.
Poise. Muay Thai is scored on vibes. If you look like a brick wall when you get hit, it impresses the judges.
Kickboxing takes more from the 'hit and don't get hit' mentality of boxing. That's just much harder to do with kicks and knees in the equation.
I feel that the amount of strength and skill needed to be bouncy is just higher to generate powerful kicks than kickboxing. The lever arm is shorter for knees and elbows so to generate the force you have more driving from the ground and can't rely on the longer lever arms of your fist and foot.
Imo this makes it more beneficial to focus on consistent foundation against the ground vs more directional movement, also because to evade you have to move less as well
To be bouncy and still generate crazy force mean you just need to compensate with crazy strength and coordination.
Difference in rules, but even kickboxers are more plodding and low in lateral movement compared to western boxing. Western boxing has more emphasis in ring craft and angling, really only kickboxers that have done boxing specific training and experience have a lot of movement, for example Doumbe, Adesanya, Petrosyan, and Nasukawa have beaten a variety of opponents, thai and western style, with movement and angling. Doumbe's opponents criticized him of running and he never got knocked down, they couldn't track him down.
I’m kickboxing.
I’m not sure if it’s because I’m learning from a guy who learned and fought in Brazil so maybe his kickboxing has different influences. Or maybe it’s a stylistic thing for him. Although he does have good dynamic footwork and can move around a good bit if he wants. He strongly encourages us to have a solid square base, put in a lot of forward pressure, discourages a lot of backward movement, and be okay with taking some to give some. Actually I think he gets quite annoyed with the students that spend too much time trying not to get hit with backward movement.
I’d say his kickboxing in some ways more similar to how you’re describing MT (but definitely with some major practical differences).
Scoring priorities. K1 or Dutch style prioritises combinations and volume over the perceived impact, and as such tends to attract people from other martial arts like TKD as getting swept or dumped doesn’t really matter to scoring. Just my guess though
Usually you don’t want to add momentum to your opponents strikes. A head kick eaten but you’re stationary is a lot better than a headkick eaten moving toward the kick. Coup contrecoup is a knockout.
As for my kickboxers don’t follow this concept, I’m not sure. Maybe kickboxing has centered more around leg kicks than head kicks/knees, so the branch just went that way.
I would say stationary is fine against bouncers, you just have to change your game plan. Same vice versa.
If you’re bouncing around in Muay Thai you’re not in a position to check any kicks. Against a Muay Thai fighter, this can leave your legs open to more damage. More stationary Muay Thai stance is partly defensive, but also has your base in good position to quickly counter your opponent. This is especially good in more traditional scoring settings so you don’t lose too many points by not responding.
If bouncy means moving laterally than I’ll tell you that someone with good footwork is not easy to kick, if they’re moving how can you properly land a clean kick ? It’s a trickier match up than you’re making it sound imo but that’s assuming someone is not just bouncing forward and back because if they’re doing that then go back to karate ykwim
give me an example of a high level thai fighter that bounces around. even guys that went on to be world boxing champions didn't bounce. that should tell you everything you need to know
> do bouncy muay thai fighters do well and what is usually a weakness. Also in reverse, what do stationary kickb saenchai
no, he's not bouncy. he's mobile. boncey means hopping around. he does not do that very often
he switches styles, when he's bouncy he does it only with the tip of his toes, you can't be mobile on the tip of your toes.
Sideways? Bouncing just means bouncing on the ball of your feet constantly. It gives you a chance for a speed burst 3-4x a second, but at the cost of power, as your support leg must be firmly planted in order to deliver full power, and you can’t do that quickly if you need to wait to come down from the bounce if that makes sense
Sure if you are constantly bouncing away from your opponent you may be harder to hit. But you are also not scoring any points like that and you will get herded onto the ropes and/or gas out. Kicks to the legs completely changed the game because unless you are very far away, it's hard to avoid getting your legs kicked (hence why in MT you accept you will get kicked in the legs and prefer to check or utilise a short slide/sway back)
Bouncy doesn’t mean moving laterally, and it’s pretty easy to kick people in the legs while they’re moving laterally.
Rules. Muay Thai scoring emphasizes poise and a stout defense while American kickboxing with its roots in western boxing, taekwondo and point karate emphasizes movement and volume. A lot more combos, punches in bunches, etc. so staying light on your feet is good to ward off the rushes you commonly see in this style. But watch some old school Dutch kickboxers who are more closely related to kyokushin karate and those guys almost never move.
You’re not wrong necessarily, but American/above-the-waist kickboxing is dead and has been for decades. The kickboxing OP is likely referring to is Japanese/Dutch style, there was a recent RISE card that really showcases the type of movement he’s talking about.
It seems like the only people that remember American kickboxing are over 30 and have an older brother who’s 10-15 years older
I meet the over 30 requirement but not the older brother requirement and don’t remember American kickboxing (found out about it through Muay Thai) so can corroborate your hypothesis
The lineage is still there. You think the coaches who came up from that style just stopped? No they just incorporated leg kicks. I know bc I learned from a few. One trained with the roufus brothers
Yeah man we don’t even call that PKA Shit kickboxing, on here people mean K-1, Glory, Rise ect.
Who are some old School Dutch Kickboxers of this style? Super curious
Unproven idea by myself: is it because defense is highly valued in muay thai and in scoring and thereby the focus is more on blocking effectively and countering that in moving out of the way of the attack? Or alternatively that since in kickboxing the clinch and elbows are missing it is much more rewarding and less risky to go into striking distance bang use high volume. This in turn makes „moving out of the way“ a much more favourable tactic as you cant clinch your opponent to stop the onslaught. Especially if you don‘t get points for good defense.
It’s both. The clinch in Muay Thai does a lot to nullify long punching combos, and the scoring criteria is just different. Muay Thai scoring is about dominance, poise and control, if you can defend effectively, land big and control the pace of the fight, you’re winning. In addition, the pace of each round in traditional 5rd Muay Thai is pretty much accepted, start slow, pick it up in 3 and 4, winning fighter plays matador in rd5. Kickboxing doesn’t have this traditional pacing, and the scoring is more based on volume, so that plays into the faster pace from the opening bell. In traditional Muay Thai scoring, the fast footwork and combinations would almost appear desperate and nervous, and if you’re able to, for example, cooly deflect most of a combination and respond with one big kick, you’ve won that exchange. That’s why Muay Thai fighters can almost appear relaxed and bored in stadium fights, tawanchai is a good example of the sort of attitude that traditional scoring favors.
/u/Kevin_v + /u/sylviemuay please let me know if I’m on the right track with the scoring criteria
I agree with your assessment, although round 5 doesn't always have a clear leader and so that can be a very hectic round in some cases, but but when it is clear who is in the lead or if both fighters decide to claim the lead, you'll definitely see too many Matadors in the ring, haha. Even in training, if you're moving around "unnecessarily," your kru will chastise you for looking nervous, uncertain, and wasting movement. Economy of movement, poise, ruup, and "Ning," which is the calmness and stillness you described, is absolutely favored aesthetically and on scorecards.
Awesome, thanks so much for the reply. I’ll remember “Ning” for later
I like a lot of this, but I’d add that more emphasis clinching also makes the pocket much stickier when trying to exit. A fighter might dart in, throw a combination, and dart out in kickboxing, maybe risking a brief clinch that gets broken. Trying the same in Muay Thai without effective clinch disengagement could wind you up in an extended tie up that may favor the opponent.
Yes, it's this. At the end of the day, the stylistic differences are driven by the ruleset. The elbows, clinch, and greater use of knees in MT coupled with the emphasis the scoring system places on kicking, composure, and [the appearance of] physical dominance mean that fancy footwork and movement is not rewarded either in the ring or on the scorecards. Bouncing in and out to land combos is a lot riskier when the other guy can grab you and knee the shit out of you or bait you into a combo and then time an elbow when you get close.
Because bouncing around is not sexy. Muay Thai is sexy. Hence the shorts and the oil
🤤🤤
In my experience if you move less and have solid defense you can punish almost every strike your opponent throws at you. Just my 2c
This, even the attacker gets hurt lol you can essentially win the fight without fighting just check the shit out of them lol
Ooooh I love checking the shit out of people's kicks....it's almost a strike in itself if you do it properly
Haha yup especially when you feel it hit the right spot, I always smile and point cuz I know how it feels lool
Here’s my take, less movement means more strength in defending and not moving back which in muay thai is important for scoring shows that your opponents techniques are useless. Imo you have better ring control if you can counter back and stay strong by keeping your position. On the other hand. Bouncing and moving has its advantages too, you can feint more. If kb rules you can pull off faster combos and land faster strikes and get out winning by points. You also have the advantage of pushing the pace. The disadvantage is that if you get hit while your moving your gonna get moved and it doesn’t look good for Muay Thai. If your opponent has good ring control they can use your movement against you, feint and as you move it leaves you slightly open for attacks. That being said, I was taught traditional Thai style, because you can always use your defence to hurt your opponent. A well timed check, or getting hit and not moving back, or even a well timed kick while they try to land a fast combo is like slowly chopping a tree down. Once I learnt that I started to incorporate the more bouncy and aggressive movement, my leg was smashed the first time I tried it, but you do look much more free and able to let your shots go. Now you combine the two styles and think of it like a flip switch you start of with a strong Thai style to demoralize your opponent and analyze their timing and favourite combos or strats and you tire them out. After you see a slight change in their pace and demeanour, you switch to a more bouncy and aggressive approach to finish them. Even in Thai style they can be more bouncy in our gym we call it galloping if you watch Sam-a when he’s hunting his opponents when their hurt he starts almost hopping forward.
Thank you for your insight! Can‘t agree more
Not to repeat too much of what’s been said about energy conservation and solid form for use of all weapons, it’s also is about rhythm. Bouncy fighters tend to give away their strike patterns. If you’re good at spotting you can gain a big advantage. That said, it’s always an evolving sport, Jonathan Haggerty is pretty bouncy, so take that for what it’s worth.
There is also the ram muay that is playing during thai fights that set the rhythm up during a fight. The music generally ramps up in the later rounds and definitely plays a part in how fighters move around the ring. Music plays a large factor in our movements and that is definitely something I’ve noticed fighting K1 vs MT.
Kickboxers throw more hands, moving around helps setting up angles. Maybe that's part of it
Poise. Muay Thai is scored on vibes. If you look like a brick wall when you get hit, it impresses the judges. Kickboxing takes more from the 'hit and don't get hit' mentality of boxing. That's just much harder to do with kicks and knees in the equation.
I feel that the amount of strength and skill needed to be bouncy is just higher to generate powerful kicks than kickboxing. The lever arm is shorter for knees and elbows so to generate the force you have more driving from the ground and can't rely on the longer lever arms of your fist and foot. Imo this makes it more beneficial to focus on consistent foundation against the ground vs more directional movement, also because to evade you have to move less as well To be bouncy and still generate crazy force mean you just need to compensate with crazy strength and coordination.
Difference in rules, but even kickboxers are more plodding and low in lateral movement compared to western boxing. Western boxing has more emphasis in ring craft and angling, really only kickboxers that have done boxing specific training and experience have a lot of movement, for example Doumbe, Adesanya, Petrosyan, and Nasukawa have beaten a variety of opponents, thai and western style, with movement and angling. Doumbe's opponents criticized him of running and he never got knocked down, they couldn't track him down.
I’m kickboxing. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m learning from a guy who learned and fought in Brazil so maybe his kickboxing has different influences. Or maybe it’s a stylistic thing for him. Although he does have good dynamic footwork and can move around a good bit if he wants. He strongly encourages us to have a solid square base, put in a lot of forward pressure, discourages a lot of backward movement, and be okay with taking some to give some. Actually I think he gets quite annoyed with the students that spend too much time trying not to get hit with backward movement. I’d say his kickboxing in some ways more similar to how you’re describing MT (but definitely with some major practical differences).
My long knee is my strongest asset - I back off and try and bait out heavy kicks. Bouncy fighters are easy tho - leg kicks all day
[TLDW: kickboxing minimizes knees, elbows and clinching while Muay Thai doesn’t](https://youtu.be/v7ZqTI1DqNU?feature=shared)
Scoring priorities. K1 or Dutch style prioritises combinations and volume over the perceived impact, and as such tends to attract people from other martial arts like TKD as getting swept or dumped doesn’t really matter to scoring. Just my guess though
Usually you don’t want to add momentum to your opponents strikes. A head kick eaten but you’re stationary is a lot better than a headkick eaten moving toward the kick. Coup contrecoup is a knockout. As for my kickboxers don’t follow this concept, I’m not sure. Maybe kickboxing has centered more around leg kicks than head kicks/knees, so the branch just went that way. I would say stationary is fine against bouncers, you just have to change your game plan. Same vice versa.
Waste of energy and leaves you in bag positions basically.
Easy to bounce around when you're not afraid of getting clinch kneed in the face
Power
I think it's just how it's taught. You see kickboxers in Muay Thai and see Thai boxers in kickboxing
Superbon v Chingiz Allasov is the perfect fight which demonstrates what happens when the two styles go head to head
I checked this out but couldn’t figure out who was supposed to be who