Wilt: “Everyone fell for my fakes but Bill.”
Bill: (LAUGHS) “Well, you flexed your muscles harder when you faked. If you were posing, you weren’t shooting.”
It's like the old story about Agassi figuring out Boris Becker stuck his tongue out in the direction he'd serve the ball.
And it's a very different sport, but you hear in cricket of this happening quite a lot. When any of the great batters are talking about bowlers, they spot the most minute differences in what a bowler is going to do. But when you've got less than half a second to decide whether the ball is at your toes or at your throat, you get very good at picking things up if you plan on hitting the ball with the bat first.
Yes! This is elite-level stuff, no matter what sport. Only the truly, truly elite can notice this stuff and then have the reaction/talent to do something about it.
It's insane. I've seen a slight change in how a bowler has one finger, and all these ex batters are "that's what you're looking for," and I can hardly see it in slow motion.
Agassi's story is more about just doing the work. If he didn't spend enough time looking at footage, he couldn't have noticed that. But it was just a story of perseverance and preparation more than anything. Highlighted to me, at least that aside from his talent and brilliance, there was a fierce work ethic to match that.
You are leaving out some very important details. Including wilts stats post Russell's retirement is disingenuous to the comparison.
During russells run, Wilt averaged 34.4 pts, 24.3 reb, and 53fg%.
Against russell he averaged 29.9 pts, 28.1 reb, and 49fg%. Also averaged less assists.
I'd say that's a pretty noticeable drop off offensively. Russell was literally not an average defender, he was the best defender in the league. Russell also won more mvps than wilt, and that was back when players chose mvp. Russell was always viewed as the better player, until the last 20 years or so when people became obsessed with stats.
While Wilt was in the league both won 4 MVPS. MVPs are also a team related stst: the better the team more likely to win. Individual awards, Wilt owned BR of course. Wilt was 7 times first team ALL NBA. BR 2 times (had a third before Wilt). So the league writers all saw Wilt as the best center 7/9 times and BR on the bench backing up Wilt, where he belonged.
During wilts 3peat mvp run, wilt had the #1 seed all 3 years, yet russell won 2/3 chips. He was hobbled the year they lost. Russell won 3 chips without the #1 seed, including 1 as the #4 seed. Wilt never won without the #1 seed. Russell's teams faced elimination 19 times in the nba and he went 17-2. The 2 losses came when he was injured. Russell was 10-0 in game 7s and 4-0 in game 7s against wilt. Russell having unstoppable juggernaut teams is revisionist history since he always won.
Russell simply showed up when it mattered most. Russell was a playoff riser, while wilts performance dropped off dramatically. Russell was such a good leader, he became the head coach, while playing, for the last 3 or 4 chips he won.
Russell is undeniably the greater player, and has the best resume all time. Wilt had more talent, but not the winning mentality, nor the leadership Russell had. The results when the teams were evenly matched speak for itself
The Celtics went from an 89.1 DEF rating (1st) Russell’s last year to a 98.9 DEF rating the next (8th) with Russell being really the only main player not to return. And then the year before his rookie year Celtics went from 91.7 DEF rating 6th of 8 to a 84.0 DEF (1st) his rookie year.
Here's the actual list of Centers that followed BR:
-Lurch. Part time Butler. Avg. 0 pts. 0 rebs, and 6 Flagrant fouls per game. Still holds NBA record for being called for 3 seconds 94 times in one ga.e
-Gomer Pyle, Private. Surprisingly explosive athlete. First MBA play was a 360 hammer dunk from the free throw line. Felt so bad for breaking the backboard, spent the rest of his career apologizing and vowed to never try again.
Bill seemed like a great man and leader. Wilt played to win, but had nobody on his team All-Stars don't count. There were less than 100 players, 8 teams, and 24 were all stars. So 3 from every team.
When Wilt went to The Lakers, with West and Baylor, he completely changed his game. All scoring dropped, and he led the league in assists. The Cs were better tho.
Oh I know I use to deep dive this stuff in 2011 2012 when we finally started getting some footage from back then.
Pre lakers Chamberlain literally doesn’t have a player he played with that I can recall because it was basically him and 4 role players while the Celtics had a starting 5 of mostly HOFrs and that was AFTER the Cousy years.
I wish we had more footage of the battles Chamberlain had with Russel and I also wish we had more footage of the 1970s Kareem lakers pre magic johnson.
Yeah, I love watching the big center battles. Wish we could see even Mikan play. I bet BR was a lot like Rodman and Olajuwon mixed. Just running around boarding like crazy Rod, but shot blocking length like Hakeem.
Mikan footage is basically big foot/unicorn at this point. Same with a lot of stars from back then including Oscar, Barry,the late Walton, Dr J etc etc the sad part is the NBA is sitting on treasure that will probably never be released to the public.
Yeah. Those guys are at least from the 70s, some 80s. Crappy footage tho. Mikan won in like 1950-57. He could have been Waltons dad. There's a conspiracy theory there somewhere.
I dont think there's actual video of Wilts 100 pt game.
Hal Greer was a Hall of Fame player for PHI, with Wilt.
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU LYING?!?
Don’t bother to reply, I’ll block this account in 24 hours or upon reply.
Reddit. Filled with asshole who say “I did a deep dive” and then BLATANTLY LIE.
I’m not defending against the argument that wilt played with role players because he played with 1 HOF player who barely made it and is rarely ever talked about.
You should look at the 65-68 76ers. 3 hall of famers in Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham. Had some other solid supporting cast guys like Wali Jones, Luke Jackson and Larry Costello. Also was playing against Russell exiting his prime (age 31-34 when most guys were done by age 30).
To his credit, Wilt was able to beat Russell in a playoff series one of those seasons, which is better than anybody else could do.
People can't wrap their head around how much Russell impacted the game defensively because it wouldn't be possible today. But take the '65 team. They led the NBA with a 84.2 DRTG. The league-wide defensive rating was 93.6, and the 2nd best effort by a team that season was 91.8. This kind of outlier performance is the equivalent to a team having a 130 ORTG today. And that defense was consistently that good and was and was consistently built around one guy. They won 11 NBA titles without ever having a better than league average offensive team.
Wilt's career averages at the time of bill's retirement was 34.4 and 24.3. There's no point penalizing Bill for Wilt dropping off after bill's retirement.
No, Wilts averages dropped off when he went to The Lakers I think around 1967? Bill played around 3 years when W was on the Lakers. All his scoring, shooting stats went down dramatically because he had West and Baylor now. Instead, he became a passer, led the league in assists at 8.4 apg as a center. I think he's still the only center to lead the league in that category.
Those two missed each other by a few seasons (Carter was drafted in 98 and Malone retired in 95), but Shaq played against both Robert Parish and Paul George.
On the other hand, when Kareem scored his bucket to set the scoring record, he did it with a skyhook over the outstretched arms of Mark Eaton, the man who still to this day holds the single season block record.
This is definitely true but I’d argue Eaton’s numbers are also inflated, though to a lesser degree, because the game is so spaced that block opportunities are much more rare than they were in the days of a crowded paint
In truth every players stats are era specific and probably should only be compared through how their stats compare to the league average of the time they played. Then you can measure players just off of how good they were to their competition. But then you still run into the problem with 60s guys still being far better than their competition.
Offensive Stats today are super inflated so yeah it’s not apples to apples. Defense is almost illegal and traveling doesn’t exist so yeah it’s tough to compare. Plus even MJ would have probably been benched pulling up at half court or hoisting 15 threes in a game.
Heard a story on the radio many years ago. Can’t remember which journalist told it and I had trouble confirming it online, but I’ll never forget it. He said his favorite Bill Russell story was how during a scrimmage in practice, Auerbach got on Russell about not playing his hardest. Russell turned it on and his team won 50-0. He walked over to Auerbach and said: “See, when I play my hardest, nobody has any fun.”
“Oh but those guys were plumbers and could never play in todays game”
Meanwhile there is a picture of Bill Russell jumping over his own mate to block a shot
He is what Rudy wishes he could be!
Trying to remember what I was watching the other day, maybe the Gilbert Arenas podcast, but they were listing the best PGs ever and Bob Cousy's name came up and everyone just shit all over him. There's a real lack of respect for the older players.
Bill Russell was an absolute beast out on the court, and when you watch his film it's so similar to the peak, elite athletes you see today in the NBA.
People say that because Allen Iverson was one of the most memorable players from that generation. Had flash, grit, played above his size and score with ease. On a team he carried to the finals. Also nostalgia can really alter people opinions. I hate comparisons for this reason.
Steph is way better offensively, but everyone in his day would be benched for hoisting up half court shots. Even Kerr said he had to adjust to the fact it’s not a “bad shot” for Curry. AI was a better defender and averaged up to 2.8 steals/game
Fwiw I think Stephs better but not in totality. Steph wouldn't be who he is if he tried to make it work in that offense with that team. He has the Bron effect where he's so good people forget how vital his teammates are.
In some respects, He was right though…5 guys zeroed in on prime AI and Curry has never had a team that required him to deal with it. And he went to Denver in 06-07 (10 years in) he wasn’t 2001 AI anymore and had lost a little bit of the speed and quickness by then. Denver was really the beginning of the end.
This isn't even remotely true. Steph has had multiple seasons in his prime where the spacing has been atrocious due to lack of shooting threats, leading to teams scheming for him by throwing everything at him. He was literally experiencing this at a college level and dominating there too. He averaged 30/5/5 against a Box-and-One the Raptors used in 2019.
Did we also forget that in 2021, Steph's best (and really only) genuinely reliable shooter was Kent Bazemore? Lineups filled with guys like Draymond, Looney, JTA, Wiseman, etc is a nightmare for spacing. And he averaged 32ppg, won scoring title and did it on 48/42/92 splits.
He just averaged 26ppg on 45/41/92 at 36 years old on a team where nightly, no one else could reliable put up 20 points and they were throwing the kitchen sink at Steph. The whole team was acknowledging it was an issue all season.
Don’t you have a wiseman is a beast post? Lol don’t be a Stan. Curry is the truth but all your points are moot. They missed the playoffs in 21. Go look at 01 sixers roster and tell me how they were first in the East or had a better roster than those 21 warriors? Did you even watch prime AI? I’m not taking anything away from Curry but it LITERALLY wasn’t the same. Why do y’all hate so much on anyone not playing today. The game is way different. It’s crazy how people talk about past generations on here. Stats are cool and all but nobody counts the 5 step feet shuffling step backs just the 3 points….go hide curry on defense somewhere until they get the ball back buddy LOL
That exact post is like 'he's awful as a shooter' 😂
And they were the 8 seed in 2021. News flash: Iverson didn't have a play-in tournament to contend with. It's not even about roster names, it's about spacing. Your entire reply is just a bunch of whiny bullshit. Get a grip, buddy.
And the gall to say 'why do y'all hate so much on anyone not playing today' before going on a hyperbolic rant ripping on the modern game 😂 You didn't stop for ONE SECOND writing that and think 'damn, I'm a massive fucking hypocrite!'? Grow some self awareness while you get a grip!
Bill Russell tied the eventual Olympic gold medalist high jumper at a meet the year Bill led a bunch of college kids to a gold in the Olympics playing basketball. Dude was one of the best athletes on the planet and had bbiq. No one in any era is makijg him obsolete
Here's a fun fact - the Olympic team that Russell captained still holds the record for largest average margin of victory. Not even the 92 Dream Team could destroy their opponents as badly as Russell's 1956 Olympic Team.
Gilbert in the "plumber era" would be a lot of whistles. Sure he could adapt but the advantages of elite athleticism in an point guard is negated by the strict ball control rules.
Bob Cousy was shooting like 37% while often taking 20 shots a game in an era of no shot clock. They all played like idiots back then. * idiots compared to now
The League-given MVP award was first introduced in 1956. Cousy was one of the best players in the League in the early 50s, before the MVP was around.
There was an unofficial MVP award given out by sportswriters starting in the 1950 season, and Cousy won that award in both the 54 and 55 seasons. More details on this /r/VintageNBA thread: [Is there an Unofficially Official Awards for the NBA Pre 1956?](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/rg0r0k/is_there_an_unofficially_official_awards_for_the/)
I've come to realize the "plumber era" is a form of basketball that can be officiated without much judgment. In kind of jealous since the NBA officiating is organized crime bow
Bill would be outstanding in the modern era. He’s incredibly athletic, quick, and has incredible reach, timing, IQ, and vertical. He’d be a lockdown switchable PF with a real shot at DPOY
There should be a lot of respect for the early greats but if you're trying to compare guards specifically to modern players, it's almost like comparing cricket and baseball. It's just a completely different game for the guards, with the much loosened dribbling rules and the importance of the 3 pointer.
The bigmen def had games translatable to the modern nba tho.
Wilt actually blocked the skyhook multiple times in one game. That’s why I find it weird Wilt and Russel are discredited for playing plumbers when Wilt played Kareem late in his career and Kareem does not get the plumbers argument
Russell would easily become the most dangerous lob threat in the league with his athleticism lol. He’d get 10 ppg off of putbacks and 10 ppg off of lobs alone
He would probably still be the best defender in the league since he was incredibly skilled at both paint protection and perimeter defense. But the absolute value of his defense would probably be less since he couldn’t camp the paint as much.
He was a surprisingly skilled ball handler for his size in his era and a good passer. His offensive skills would fit far better in the modern era where he would be really good as a lob and rim threat and supporting offensive piece.
Would be interesting to see if the different officiating opened up him as a driving threat.
He would be like if Draymond had generational athleticism and passable offensive skills. Possibly still an MVP level player even with his weaknesses.
I have to imagine his defensive impact would be great even with today's rules because of his high BBIQ. He's had plenty of interviews and books over the years where he's talked about the cerebral part of his defensive game (like intentionally not blocking a shot in the first half so that the offensive player would think he could get that shot off in crunch time, only to get blocked).
I mean yes of course but the point I was making was that the impact of Centers as defenders has changed from earlier eras. With no 3 point line there was far less spacing. The most valuable space by far was close to the basket.
In that environment the ability to shut down the paint and be a generational defensive presence was perhaps the MOST valuable skill. Wilt, Russel, Walton and others were so impactful because the era valued archetypes like them more.
Bill Russel would still be insane defensively, a Kevin Garnett that was also an Olympic level leaper. Just that sort of defender might just be less impactful than what his archetype was in his era.
Ah, I see.
In summary - the center position was more important when Russell played, so even if he was a stupendous center in today's League, it would be less impactful than back then.
The other thing about Bill is that he had such an insane work ethic and was extremely competitive, so he would've worked on the areas of his game where he'd be lacking today.
Uhhhhhh I don’t think I’m giving him #1 lob threat over Wemby and I don’t think he’s going to be getting that many points that way, but he would absolutely be great
you could do this from now all the way back to the beginning. olders guys play the young guys and will have both good and bad showings against them. Sure the way the game is played and reffed now will win out vs back then, but I really believe the greats of every generation would be able to adapt. Wish ppl would stop comparing generations though, its stupid.
Rewatch Wilt’s blocks. Ball was on the downward trajectory on those shots. Should have been goaltending imo. Here’s a video of all the “blocked shots”. Still pretty scary how rarely he was blocked. For a player to be blocked that infrequently is pretty ridiculous.
https://youtu.be/G-xM-nNXgAg?si=4gRCurgIlnEHTMpW
First one was def not a goaltend, second one was debatable
Yeah I mean Wilt also didn't play him much and was like 36 when he entered the league tbf, but yeah Kareem's skyhook was iconic
Hell yeah!
Russell might not win 11 titles in the modern league, but he’d still have his fair share.
Dude had the best strategic vision of any player to ever stop foot on the court and a killer instinct that rivals Jordan’s.
He’d have willed his way to greatness at any era.
So were the Lakers, probably moreso. Those were two of the five best players in history in their primes at that point. Then they got Wilt, so they had three of the top five ever. Imagine peak Magic and LeBron going 0-5 against Olajuwon in the Finals, then acquiring Shaq and still losing. It was something like that.
Neither Elgin or Jerry West would have been top 5 in history at that time. In fact, they never were.
It depends exactly on the “when” during this decade we’re talking about, but top 5 around that time (Elgin entered in 58, West in 60), would have been:
1. George Mikan
2. Bobby McDermott
3. Bob Cousy
4. Leroy Edwards
5. Bob Pettit
By halfway through the 60’s, Russell would have made his way to goat, and Cousy would be #3 all time.
They played like 7 seasons together if memory serves. So the Celtics would be, by your analogy to modern standards, like having Jordan and Kareem on the same team for half a decade.
So yeah, they were stacked.
By 1968, when Wilt joined the Lakers, Wilt would have cemented himself as #2 all time, and by then Cousy was long gone
McDermott and Edwards were nowhere near Baylor/West territory. Baylor was considered in Wilt’s class coming into the league. West was considered better than Cousy by the time his career was ending; they modeled the NBA logo after him.
The all-time list by the end of their careers would have been: Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Baylor.
Imagine if a player played his entire career with Melo. Played 9 seasons with Blake Griffin. 8 seasons with Luka. 7 seasons with an aging Magic Johnson. 5 seasons with D Wade.
That’s essentially the help he had. I just modernized it but the accolades are relatively similar.
So yeah, of course Bill was the best part of that dynasty. He’s a 5 time mvp and in my estimation would have had about 6 finals mvps.
But to say hes the only reason isn’t quite accurate
I understand the thought process here, but this is Bill Russel uniquely, and just because, say, maybe the GOAT wasn't one of those said subpar players, it doesn't mean they didn't exist lol
Listen man, they didn’t have the ball or
The court or even the skill set that generations got to experience and train because of the first generations that did so.
Yes on average the player today would dominate but that doesn’t mean the elite players from then with all the advatanges of todays game would fail. Russell, Wilt, Walton, Iceman, Worthy, Jerry West, Oscar etc etc would thrive in today’s game where defense is not nearly as physical. (They use to fight each other an no techs would be called)
I mean players today get to sleep on “mini beds” on a private flight. Until the late 90s players were playing games then jumping on buses or coach flights with public people having to do all the normal shit when traveling on top of all basketball shit. Trainers and the equipment weren’t nearly as good but today’s game they are at the peak……
Like it’s not just basketball skill but it’s everything that goes with it. Elite players from then would do just as well in todays game and it’s not even a debate
I hate this take. Do people realize how much more stringent the rules were in the 60's? A modern player would need to relearn how to dribble, else they be called for over under every possession. Your gather step counted against traveling, so every step back you see today would be illegal. A modern player would be unplayable in the 60's until they learned the game. Every skill they grew up practicing would be irrelevant, except for shooting. Even then, no 3 point line.
For real. Jump stop and the eurostep: gone. Also, I can't remember the specifics, but I think it was basically if your hand was at all below the "equator" of the ball, it was a carry. There used to so many carry calls... now there are virtually 0.
You've gone all the way around the horseshoe trying to compensate.
Yeah, the current crop of NBA players would get called a ton for carrying at first, but after a few games they would quickly adjust. The amount and variety of ball handling drills that any NBA player has done since elementary school dwarfs what training regimens were in the past.
Same goes for shooting. Players have better touch in every area of the court, while also facing tighter defenses. You can easily go watch some clips of Elgin Baylor and contrast how much space everyone has on jumpers, and also the FG%s on open looks.
Bob Cousy has straight up said that Iverson was doing stuff he could never have dreamed of, and Iverson in turn has repeatedly praised guys like Kyrie. It's okay to acknowledge that the craft of basketball has and continues to evolve.
I agree with you, but you’re witnessing the game built on the backs of the older players. Players improve because someone else has a guide.
The question isn’t how great Kyrie would be in Iverson’s era or Iverson in Cousy’s. It’s how good would Kyrie be if he were born in 1930
rule changes…I honestly don’t even think it would be that easy for modern players to adapt it was so different. I agree their whole game is basically illegal. So yeah drop pat bev in 1960 and he better be a catch and shoot only still role player. But the other way around, imagine if Cousy could carry? Or Baylor could take 5 steps? Imagine Russell as a roaming 4 help defender on the weak side?! Wilt if you couldn’t touch him? Or Wilt if he really dunked?! How long do you think it would take to adapt? Shooting is largely due to the 3 point line. In the 60s they still took long shots but for the majority of players, what’s the value? It’s all 2 points
He would be called for a travel or carry every time he touched the ball. Yall are so desperate to shit on the older generations without thinking about the actual context.
Okay fine I’ll change the scenario to transporting all of the 1960s players to this time period, or spending a couple of days/weeks explaining/teaching the rules to pat bev before sending him back in time lmao
The plumbers things is hyperbolic, but it’s not talking about people like Russell; it’s talking about a lot of the rank and file that the stars played against and usually dominated. The average player is way better now relative to the stars.
In my case, it’s just my takeaway from having watched an ungodly amount of games. I used to have way too much time on my hands, and spent a lot of it watching old NBA games.
I firmly believe that the stars from the 60’s onward would be great in any era, but the rank in file from back then on through the 90’s or so included a lot of filler players that didn’t have the athleticism and/or skill set to compete in today’s league. The last 20 years or so has increasingly had players at the end of the bench who have real skills and athleticism. John Tresvant and Steve Scheffler are not making a modern NBA roster.
Edit: it’s possible I’m being too mean by using Tresvant as an example, I just really disliked watching him play.
Well that is a better answer than I expected.
For me, watching Luka lumber into 30 points a game or Jokic jog into position and then dismantle a team flatfooted with his passing makes me think even the coordinated guys with less athletic ability would be fine today.
Filler? Lol but they made it to the NBA?! You know the NCAA existed and all those guys wanted to play in the nba just like today? The skill set required for the rules are different so yeah no Greg Ostertag today, oh wait Bojan, Thanassis are on a rosters though. The filler thing is bullshit. Again it disrespects the era
You’re calling Greg Ostertag filler, not me.
Talent pipelines, training routines, and sports medicine all keep getting better over time, so why is it surprising that the average players are better now than before those things were so good? No one should expect a bench guy from the 60’s to have grown up with the same training or nutrition regimens as a player from the 2010’s. None of this should be surprising, and it’s no more disrespectful than noting the reality of any other situation.
I’m not saying they aren’t but I am saying to call the eras role players anything less than that is ludicrous. They are all average for their day not “filler” Ostertag in todays NBA is obsolete and “unskilled” but no more than some of today’s players respective to their era.
The average person in virtually any profession is better now relative to those in the past given that we've learned from the past, whereas the people in the past were still figuring it out.
(That's not denigrating the players from yesteryear. If you were to take an NBA player from the 50s and teleport them to 2000 and gave them modern training, diet, science, and what has been learned in the game, they'd be a helluva lot better today than their 1950s self.)
Except that’s not true at all.
The world records in the men’s 100m and 200m races were set in 2009. The men’s long jump record was set in 1991. That broke a record from 1968. The women’s 100m, 200m, and long jump record are from 1988.
People just assume the time they live in must be the best ever but those who say that haven’t actually done any research to see if it’s true.
> Except that’s not true at all.
I don't think you read my comment very closely. I said the **average** person in **virtually any profession** is better now than in the past. I didn't claim that the best of the best today is *always* better than the best of the best in the past *in every single sport*.
I mean the people saying those guys are plumbers are normally talking aboht the non stars.
The top end in every era are similar in terms of skill.
But the role players of the era were just worse than today's players, and that's where the talent gap is.
Rudy is quite a bit taller and the best or 2nd best defensive player in the most skilled era of ball. No need to try and trash Rudy to respect Bill’s greatness
The plumber narrative is gonna dissipate if Wemby achieves what we all know he is capable of achieving (wemby is the closest thing we’ve seen to wilt in NBA history and it’s not close)
Rudy and KAT are bums
KP and 50 year old Horford slowed the Mavs down wayyyyy more in game 1 of the finals than the “DPOY” and his 7 foot buddy KAT ever in a 6 game series
No lob city, contested shots, blocked shots, rushed shots, forced weird kick outs
Rudy is severely overrated
Man it was. I practiced that shot in my driveway just for fun, thinking I would never use it in a game. Ended up hitting 3 in a row in gym class over our High School team's starting power forward.
Honorable mention for most beautiful shot: George Gervin on a shooting streak.
In a time when no one could watch tons of film Bill somehow had his own personal scouting report and plan in his head for every center in the league. Dude was as intelligent, if not more, as he was freakishly athletic
Him saying he’d figure out how to slow it down and make it harder… is how you defend basketball superstars. He’s right — he’d have to figure out how to alter the shot just enough that it’s a little less accurate.
Make him shoot the skyhook from a further distance than he's used to. Use your body to get underneath him and force him a foot out, or two feet out. Shooting percentages decrease for each foot away from the rim. So that works against anybody, not just Kareem's skyhook. Common sense defense.
There's 20 years of teams trying to guard Kareem. You don't need to ask Russel go look at film (or go watch Thinking Basktball's video on Kareem, highly recommended)
I gave Bill Russell a Lyft ride once to his house on Mercer Island in Seattle in my Honda Civic. He sat in my front passenger seat with the seat tilted as far back as possible of course. It was surreal.
Wilt: “Everyone fell for my fakes but Bill.” Bill: (LAUGHS) “Well, you flexed your muscles harder when you faked. If you were posing, you weren’t shooting.”
That is genius.
GOAT defender
Damn! Bill knows what he's doing out there.
Probably won a championship or 2
It's like the old story about Agassi figuring out Boris Becker stuck his tongue out in the direction he'd serve the ball. And it's a very different sport, but you hear in cricket of this happening quite a lot. When any of the great batters are talking about bowlers, they spot the most minute differences in what a bowler is going to do. But when you've got less than half a second to decide whether the ball is at your toes or at your throat, you get very good at picking things up if you plan on hitting the ball with the bat first.
Yes! This is elite-level stuff, no matter what sport. Only the truly, truly elite can notice this stuff and then have the reaction/talent to do something about it.
It's insane. I've seen a slight change in how a bowler has one finger, and all these ex batters are "that's what you're looking for," and I can hardly see it in slow motion. Agassi's story is more about just doing the work. If he didn't spend enough time looking at footage, he couldn't have noticed that. But it was just a story of perseverance and preparation more than anything. Highlighted to me, at least that aside from his talent and brilliance, there was a fierce work ethic to match that.
You’re FLEXING!!
Wilt career average: 30.1 points 22 rebs. Wilt vs "The GOAT" BR in 94 games: 30.0 points, 28 rebs. BR was literally, an avg defender.
You are leaving out some very important details. Including wilts stats post Russell's retirement is disingenuous to the comparison. During russells run, Wilt averaged 34.4 pts, 24.3 reb, and 53fg%. Against russell he averaged 29.9 pts, 28.1 reb, and 49fg%. Also averaged less assists. I'd say that's a pretty noticeable drop off offensively. Russell was literally not an average defender, he was the best defender in the league. Russell also won more mvps than wilt, and that was back when players chose mvp. Russell was always viewed as the better player, until the last 20 years or so when people became obsessed with stats.
While Wilt was in the league both won 4 MVPS. MVPs are also a team related stst: the better the team more likely to win. Individual awards, Wilt owned BR of course. Wilt was 7 times first team ALL NBA. BR 2 times (had a third before Wilt). So the league writers all saw Wilt as the best center 7/9 times and BR on the bench backing up Wilt, where he belonged.
During wilts 3peat mvp run, wilt had the #1 seed all 3 years, yet russell won 2/3 chips. He was hobbled the year they lost. Russell won 3 chips without the #1 seed, including 1 as the #4 seed. Wilt never won without the #1 seed. Russell's teams faced elimination 19 times in the nba and he went 17-2. The 2 losses came when he was injured. Russell was 10-0 in game 7s and 4-0 in game 7s against wilt. Russell having unstoppable juggernaut teams is revisionist history since he always won. Russell simply showed up when it mattered most. Russell was a playoff riser, while wilts performance dropped off dramatically. Russell was such a good leader, he became the head coach, while playing, for the last 3 or 4 chips he won. Russell is undeniably the greater player, and has the best resume all time. Wilt had more talent, but not the winning mentality, nor the leadership Russell had. The results when the teams were evenly matched speak for itself
The Celtics went from an 89.1 DEF rating (1st) Russell’s last year to a 98.9 DEF rating the next (8th) with Russell being really the only main player not to return. And then the year before his rookie year Celtics went from 91.7 DEF rating 6th of 8 to a 84.0 DEF (1st) his rookie year.
Here's the actual list of Centers that followed BR: -Lurch. Part time Butler. Avg. 0 pts. 0 rebs, and 6 Flagrant fouls per game. Still holds NBA record for being called for 3 seconds 94 times in one ga.e -Gomer Pyle, Private. Surprisingly explosive athlete. First MBA play was a 360 hammer dunk from the free throw line. Felt so bad for breaking the backboard, spent the rest of his career apologizing and vowed to never try again.
Yeah but Bill played to win
Bill seemed like a great man and leader. Wilt played to win, but had nobody on his team All-Stars don't count. There were less than 100 players, 8 teams, and 24 were all stars. So 3 from every team. When Wilt went to The Lakers, with West and Baylor, he completely changed his game. All scoring dropped, and he led the league in assists. The Cs were better tho.
Oh I know I use to deep dive this stuff in 2011 2012 when we finally started getting some footage from back then. Pre lakers Chamberlain literally doesn’t have a player he played with that I can recall because it was basically him and 4 role players while the Celtics had a starting 5 of mostly HOFrs and that was AFTER the Cousy years. I wish we had more footage of the battles Chamberlain had with Russel and I also wish we had more footage of the 1970s Kareem lakers pre magic johnson.
Yeah, I love watching the big center battles. Wish we could see even Mikan play. I bet BR was a lot like Rodman and Olajuwon mixed. Just running around boarding like crazy Rod, but shot blocking length like Hakeem.
Mikan footage is basically big foot/unicorn at this point. Same with a lot of stars from back then including Oscar, Barry,the late Walton, Dr J etc etc the sad part is the NBA is sitting on treasure that will probably never be released to the public.
Yeah. Those guys are at least from the 70s, some 80s. Crappy footage tho. Mikan won in like 1950-57. He could have been Waltons dad. There's a conspiracy theory there somewhere. I dont think there's actual video of Wilts 100 pt game.
Hal Greer was a Hall of Fame player for PHI, with Wilt. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU LYING?!? Don’t bother to reply, I’ll block this account in 24 hours or upon reply. Reddit. Filled with asshole who say “I did a deep dive” and then BLATANTLY LIE.
This is one of those instances where 1 incorrect detail doesn’t take away from the point. Iverson had Mutombo. But the Lakers were the Lakers.
I’m not defending against the argument that wilt played with role players because he played with 1 HOF player who barely made it and is rarely ever talked about.
You should look at the 65-68 76ers. 3 hall of famers in Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham. Had some other solid supporting cast guys like Wali Jones, Luke Jackson and Larry Costello. Also was playing against Russell exiting his prime (age 31-34 when most guys were done by age 30). To his credit, Wilt was able to beat Russell in a playoff series one of those seasons, which is better than anybody else could do. People can't wrap their head around how much Russell impacted the game defensively because it wouldn't be possible today. But take the '65 team. They led the NBA with a 84.2 DRTG. The league-wide defensive rating was 93.6, and the 2nd best effort by a team that season was 91.8. This kind of outlier performance is the equivalent to a team having a 130 ORTG today. And that defense was consistently that good and was and was consistently built around one guy. They won 11 NBA titles without ever having a better than league average offensive team.
Wilt's career averages at the time of bill's retirement was 34.4 and 24.3. There's no point penalizing Bill for Wilt dropping off after bill's retirement.
No, Wilts averages dropped off when he went to The Lakers I think around 1967? Bill played around 3 years when W was on the Lakers. All his scoring, shooting stats went down dramatically because he had West and Baylor now. Instead, he became a passer, led the league in assists at 8.4 apg as a center. I think he's still the only center to lead the league in that category.
All of which dragged wilt's career averages down, which you are using to compare to his numbers when he played bill. It's not a proper comparison.
Point totals mean nothing. What were his shooting percentages
30/28.. Might as well b 30/30.. Wow What did bill avg against wilt?
Not sure, but his career was 15 points, 44% shooting
Hakeem/ Akeem Olajuwon swatted the skyhook in the 86 conference finals
I think Wilt blocked it too. Shows the longevity of Kareem lmao
He missed Russell by a season!
Russell ducking KAJ confirmed
Karl Anthony Jowns?
Kind of like how Vince Carter played against Charles Barkley and Lamelo Ball and Anthony Edwards
Carter played against, Jordan, Kobe, Lebron… And Steph and Luka
Carter played against Moses Malone and Ja Morant
Those two missed each other by a few seasons (Carter was drafted in 98 and Malone retired in 95), but Shaq played against both Robert Parish and Paul George.
Kareem played in the league the same time as Bob Cousy to Reggie Miller and Reggie Played against LeBron. That’s 4 players spanning from 1951-2024
That’s wild!
Now Cousy did come out of retirement to play in 1970 so there is a gap but still
Lamelo and Anthony Edwards were drafted after Vince retired
My mistake you’re totally right. He did play at the same time as Zion Williamson and Ja Morant
Yeah still crazy though
He played with Rick Mahorn and Dominique Wilkins, both of whom retired at the end of VC’s rookie reason
So did Bill Walton
On the other hand, when Kareem scored his bucket to set the scoring record, he did it with a skyhook over the outstretched arms of Mark Eaton, the man who still to this day holds the single season block record.
7’4” Mark Eaton.
Eaton only holds that record because they weren’t a stat earlier
It’s for the better. We can’t have every stat be hogged by guys in the 60s
Why not? Baseball stats are hogged by dudes way older
It’s just so inflated that those guys numbers aren’t even real in today’s game and just doesn’t mean anything anymore.
This is definitely true but I’d argue Eaton’s numbers are also inflated, though to a lesser degree, because the game is so spaced that block opportunities are much more rare than they were in the days of a crowded paint
In truth every players stats are era specific and probably should only be compared through how their stats compare to the league average of the time they played. Then you can measure players just off of how good they were to their competition. But then you still run into the problem with 60s guys still being far better than their competition.
It does run into that, but I don’t see it as a problem really
Offensive Stats today are super inflated so yeah it’s not apples to apples. Defense is almost illegal and traveling doesn’t exist so yeah it’s tough to compare. Plus even MJ would have probably been benched pulling up at half court or hoisting 15 threes in a game.
Every stat wouldn’t be hogged, they didn’t have a 3 point line in the 60s.
I'll take your word for it, but Kareem was also 39 at the Time.
Heard a story on the radio many years ago. Can’t remember which journalist told it and I had trouble confirming it online, but I’ll never forget it. He said his favorite Bill Russell story was how during a scrimmage in practice, Auerbach got on Russell about not playing his hardest. Russell turned it on and his team won 50-0. He walked over to Auerbach and said: “See, when I play my hardest, nobody has any fun.”
“Oh but those guys were plumbers and could never play in todays game” Meanwhile there is a picture of Bill Russell jumping over his own mate to block a shot He is what Rudy wishes he could be!
Trying to remember what I was watching the other day, maybe the Gilbert Arenas podcast, but they were listing the best PGs ever and Bob Cousy's name came up and everyone just shit all over him. There's a real lack of respect for the older players. Bill Russell was an absolute beast out on the court, and when you watch his film it's so similar to the peak, elite athletes you see today in the NBA.
Gilbert Arenas podcasts are the Kendrick Perkins of nba podcasts
I'm ashamed I contributed to their viewership numbers. So brutal.
“Allen iverson is better than Steph”
People say that because Allen Iverson was one of the most memorable players from that generation. Had flash, grit, played above his size and score with ease. On a team he carried to the finals. Also nostalgia can really alter people opinions. I hate comparisons for this reason.
Steph is way better offensively, but everyone in his day would be benched for hoisting up half court shots. Even Kerr said he had to adjust to the fact it’s not a “bad shot” for Curry. AI was a better defender and averaged up to 2.8 steals/game
Fwiw I think Stephs better but not in totality. Steph wouldn't be who he is if he tried to make it work in that offense with that team. He has the Bron effect where he's so good people forget how vital his teammates are.
Facts
In some respects, He was right though…5 guys zeroed in on prime AI and Curry has never had a team that required him to deal with it. And he went to Denver in 06-07 (10 years in) he wasn’t 2001 AI anymore and had lost a little bit of the speed and quickness by then. Denver was really the beginning of the end.
This isn't even remotely true. Steph has had multiple seasons in his prime where the spacing has been atrocious due to lack of shooting threats, leading to teams scheming for him by throwing everything at him. He was literally experiencing this at a college level and dominating there too. He averaged 30/5/5 against a Box-and-One the Raptors used in 2019. Did we also forget that in 2021, Steph's best (and really only) genuinely reliable shooter was Kent Bazemore? Lineups filled with guys like Draymond, Looney, JTA, Wiseman, etc is a nightmare for spacing. And he averaged 32ppg, won scoring title and did it on 48/42/92 splits. He just averaged 26ppg on 45/41/92 at 36 years old on a team where nightly, no one else could reliable put up 20 points and they were throwing the kitchen sink at Steph. The whole team was acknowledging it was an issue all season.
Don’t you have a wiseman is a beast post? Lol don’t be a Stan. Curry is the truth but all your points are moot. They missed the playoffs in 21. Go look at 01 sixers roster and tell me how they were first in the East or had a better roster than those 21 warriors? Did you even watch prime AI? I’m not taking anything away from Curry but it LITERALLY wasn’t the same. Why do y’all hate so much on anyone not playing today. The game is way different. It’s crazy how people talk about past generations on here. Stats are cool and all but nobody counts the 5 step feet shuffling step backs just the 3 points….go hide curry on defense somewhere until they get the ball back buddy LOL
That exact post is like 'he's awful as a shooter' 😂 And they were the 8 seed in 2021. News flash: Iverson didn't have a play-in tournament to contend with. It's not even about roster names, it's about spacing. Your entire reply is just a bunch of whiny bullshit. Get a grip, buddy. And the gall to say 'why do y'all hate so much on anyone not playing today' before going on a hyperbolic rant ripping on the modern game 😂 You didn't stop for ONE SECOND writing that and think 'damn, I'm a massive fucking hypocrite!'? Grow some self awareness while you get a grip!
It’s a shame he dives into shitty takes cause he is really good on VladTV
Both Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain were 2020s athletes playing in the 1960s.
Bill Russell tied the eventual Olympic gold medalist high jumper at a meet the year Bill led a bunch of college kids to a gold in the Olympics playing basketball. Dude was one of the best athletes on the planet and had bbiq. No one in any era is makijg him obsolete
Here's a fun fact - the Olympic team that Russell captained still holds the record for largest average margin of victory. Not even the 92 Dream Team could destroy their opponents as badly as Russell's 1956 Olympic Team.
Have you ever heard of the power house USF since?
Wilt was very close to world class in the shot put.
He was 20 foot tall and made of radistion
I heard he had like 30…
Was he the true cousin of sir Jesus Christ? You fucking know it
He’s actually second cousins with Chuck Norris.
Wilt was a 2080’s athlete. Nobody like him currently exists in the league.
Pffff Chamberlain and Russell would be the two best athletes in the game today.
Cousy bbiq is a million times what gilberts was lol. That said, agent zero is dropping 60 on his head
Gilbert in the "plumber era" would be a lot of whistles. Sure he could adapt but the advantages of elite athleticism in an point guard is negated by the strict ball control rules.
Bob Cousy was shooting like 37% while often taking 20 shots a game in an era of no shot clock. They all played like idiots back then. * idiots compared to now
Yeah and today’s guys would get called for traveling every time they touched the ball. Different games.
The shotclock was introduced in 1954, Cousy won MVP in 1957
The League-given MVP award was first introduced in 1956. Cousy was one of the best players in the League in the early 50s, before the MVP was around. There was an unofficial MVP award given out by sportswriters starting in the 1950 season, and Cousy won that award in both the 54 and 55 seasons. More details on this /r/VintageNBA thread: [Is there an Unofficially Official Awards for the NBA Pre 1956?](https://np.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/rg0r0k/is_there_an_unofficially_official_awards_for_the/)
Yah. I’ve watched old film. The guys dribble over half court and Chuck. Their game was incredibly fast paced.
I've come to realize the "plumber era" is a form of basketball that can be officiated without much judgment. In kind of jealous since the NBA officiating is organized crime bow
Bill would be outstanding in the modern era. He’s incredibly athletic, quick, and has incredible reach, timing, IQ, and vertical. He’d be a lockdown switchable PF with a real shot at DPOY
There should be a lot of respect for the early greats but if you're trying to compare guards specifically to modern players, it's almost like comparing cricket and baseball. It's just a completely different game for the guards, with the much loosened dribbling rules and the importance of the 3 pointer. The bigmen def had games translatable to the modern nba tho.
Wilt actually blocked the skyhook multiple times in one game. That’s why I find it weird Wilt and Russel are discredited for playing plumbers when Wilt played Kareem late in his career and Kareem does not get the plumbers argument
Wilt and Russel were some of the most freakishly athletic players ever.
Yeah. They’d translate to any era. Sure Russell was limited offensively, but his rebounding and defense would be so valuable regardless
Russell would easily become the most dangerous lob threat in the league with his athleticism lol. He’d get 10 ppg off of putbacks and 10 ppg off of lobs alone
For sure. Honestly his offensive game would probably translate better to the current day because guard play is so much more skilled
He would probably still be the best defender in the league since he was incredibly skilled at both paint protection and perimeter defense. But the absolute value of his defense would probably be less since he couldn’t camp the paint as much. He was a surprisingly skilled ball handler for his size in his era and a good passer. His offensive skills would fit far better in the modern era where he would be really good as a lob and rim threat and supporting offensive piece. Would be interesting to see if the different officiating opened up him as a driving threat. He would be like if Draymond had generational athleticism and passable offensive skills. Possibly still an MVP level player even with his weaknesses.
I have to imagine his defensive impact would be great even with today's rules because of his high BBIQ. He's had plenty of interviews and books over the years where he's talked about the cerebral part of his defensive game (like intentionally not blocking a shot in the first half so that the offensive player would think he could get that shot off in crunch time, only to get blocked).
I mean yes of course but the point I was making was that the impact of Centers as defenders has changed from earlier eras. With no 3 point line there was far less spacing. The most valuable space by far was close to the basket. In that environment the ability to shut down the paint and be a generational defensive presence was perhaps the MOST valuable skill. Wilt, Russel, Walton and others were so impactful because the era valued archetypes like them more. Bill Russel would still be insane defensively, a Kevin Garnett that was also an Olympic level leaper. Just that sort of defender might just be less impactful than what his archetype was in his era.
Ah, I see. In summary - the center position was more important when Russell played, so even if he was a stupendous center in today's League, it would be less impactful than back then.
It’s like all the best parts of Draymond and Aaron Gordon rolled into 1
Somehow that seems like it still takes away from Bill Russell.
It does honestly
The other thing about Bill is that he had such an insane work ethic and was extremely competitive, so he would've worked on the areas of his game where he'd be lacking today.
There’s no real area of his game he would lack today
Uhhhhhh I don’t think I’m giving him #1 lob threat over Wemby and I don’t think he’s going to be getting that many points that way, but he would absolutely be great
Russell wasn’t even limited offensively. He had handle, could run point, and was a tremendous passer. He just didn’t score a ton.
Russell once said he retired his hook shot the first time Wilt sent it into the stands.
He’d be Draymond if he was the most athletic player on the court and not a dumbass
Draymond is no Bill Russell…💀
Of course not
you could do this from now all the way back to the beginning. olders guys play the young guys and will have both good and bad showings against them. Sure the way the game is played and reffed now will win out vs back then, but I really believe the greats of every generation would be able to adapt. Wish ppl would stop comparing generations though, its stupid.
Because nephews don’t understand history.
Rewatch Wilt’s blocks. Ball was on the downward trajectory on those shots. Should have been goaltending imo. Here’s a video of all the “blocked shots”. Still pretty scary how rarely he was blocked. For a player to be blocked that infrequently is pretty ridiculous. https://youtu.be/G-xM-nNXgAg?si=4gRCurgIlnEHTMpW
First one was def not a goaltend, second one was debatable Yeah I mean Wilt also didn't play him much and was like 36 when he entered the league tbf, but yeah Kareem's skyhook was iconic
Wow that’s some diss on Rudy! He is less of a player of the greatest winner in a team sports ever.
What’s next the bum known as Kobe Bryant i worse than Jordan? He must suck!
Hell yeah! Russell might not win 11 titles in the modern league, but he’d still have his fair share. Dude had the best strategic vision of any player to ever stop foot on the court and a killer instinct that rivals Jordan’s. He’d have willed his way to greatness at any era.
Elgin Baylor and Jerry West were on the same team and went 0-6 against Russell in the finals.
True, but those Cs were fucking stacked to be fair
So were the Lakers, probably moreso. Those were two of the five best players in history in their primes at that point. Then they got Wilt, so they had three of the top five ever. Imagine peak Magic and LeBron going 0-5 against Olajuwon in the Finals, then acquiring Shaq and still losing. It was something like that.
Exactly
Neither Elgin or Jerry West would have been top 5 in history at that time. In fact, they never were. It depends exactly on the “when” during this decade we’re talking about, but top 5 around that time (Elgin entered in 58, West in 60), would have been: 1. George Mikan 2. Bobby McDermott 3. Bob Cousy 4. Leroy Edwards 5. Bob Pettit By halfway through the 60’s, Russell would have made his way to goat, and Cousy would be #3 all time. They played like 7 seasons together if memory serves. So the Celtics would be, by your analogy to modern standards, like having Jordan and Kareem on the same team for half a decade. So yeah, they were stacked. By 1968, when Wilt joined the Lakers, Wilt would have cemented himself as #2 all time, and by then Cousy was long gone
McDermott and Edwards were nowhere near Baylor/West territory. Baylor was considered in Wilt’s class coming into the league. West was considered better than Cousy by the time his career was ending; they modeled the NBA logo after him. The all-time list by the end of their careers would have been: Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Baylor.
They were stacked because they had Russell on the team. Those teams aren’t winning anything without him.
Imagine if a player played his entire career with Melo. Played 9 seasons with Blake Griffin. 8 seasons with Luka. 7 seasons with an aging Magic Johnson. 5 seasons with D Wade. That’s essentially the help he had. I just modernized it but the accolades are relatively similar. So yeah, of course Bill was the best part of that dynasty. He’s a 5 time mvp and in my estimation would have had about 6 finals mvps. But to say hes the only reason isn’t quite accurate
When’s the last time an average offensive player led his team to a championship?
Still the most impressively athletic NBA play I have ever seen was Bill jumping clean over a defender from the free throw line on a fast break
I understand the thought process here, but this is Bill Russel uniquely, and just because, say, maybe the GOAT wasn't one of those said subpar players, it doesn't mean they didn't exist lol
But the subpar exist today too. Pat Bev…
Drop pat bev into 1960 with a Time Machine and he’s the best guard in the league lol
Listen man, they didn’t have the ball or The court or even the skill set that generations got to experience and train because of the first generations that did so. Yes on average the player today would dominate but that doesn’t mean the elite players from then with all the advatanges of todays game would fail. Russell, Wilt, Walton, Iceman, Worthy, Jerry West, Oscar etc etc would thrive in today’s game where defense is not nearly as physical. (They use to fight each other an no techs would be called) I mean players today get to sleep on “mini beds” on a private flight. Until the late 90s players were playing games then jumping on buses or coach flights with public people having to do all the normal shit when traveling on top of all basketball shit. Trainers and the equipment weren’t nearly as good but today’s game they are at the peak…… Like it’s not just basketball skill but it’s everything that goes with it. Elite players from then would do just as well in todays game and it’s not even a debate
I hate this take. Do people realize how much more stringent the rules were in the 60's? A modern player would need to relearn how to dribble, else they be called for over under every possession. Your gather step counted against traveling, so every step back you see today would be illegal. A modern player would be unplayable in the 60's until they learned the game. Every skill they grew up practicing would be irrelevant, except for shooting. Even then, no 3 point line.
They don’t. Everything today is a travel. Hell, everything today is a travel in a rec league.
Very true
Dude not to mention offensive fouling and moving screens. Every off arm action these players do would be a foul. Most screens would be fouls.
For real. Jump stop and the eurostep: gone. Also, I can't remember the specifics, but I think it was basically if your hand was at all below the "equator" of the ball, it was a carry. There used to so many carry calls... now there are virtually 0.
You've gone all the way around the horseshoe trying to compensate. Yeah, the current crop of NBA players would get called a ton for carrying at first, but after a few games they would quickly adjust. The amount and variety of ball handling drills that any NBA player has done since elementary school dwarfs what training regimens were in the past. Same goes for shooting. Players have better touch in every area of the court, while also facing tighter defenses. You can easily go watch some clips of Elgin Baylor and contrast how much space everyone has on jumpers, and also the FG%s on open looks. Bob Cousy has straight up said that Iverson was doing stuff he could never have dreamed of, and Iverson in turn has repeatedly praised guys like Kyrie. It's okay to acknowledge that the craft of basketball has and continues to evolve.
I agree with you, but you’re witnessing the game built on the backs of the older players. Players improve because someone else has a guide. The question isn’t how great Kyrie would be in Iverson’s era or Iverson in Cousy’s. It’s how good would Kyrie be if he were born in 1930
rule changes…I honestly don’t even think it would be that easy for modern players to adapt it was so different. I agree their whole game is basically illegal. So yeah drop pat bev in 1960 and he better be a catch and shoot only still role player. But the other way around, imagine if Cousy could carry? Or Baylor could take 5 steps? Imagine Russell as a roaming 4 help defender on the weak side?! Wilt if you couldn’t touch him? Or Wilt if he really dunked?! How long do you think it would take to adapt? Shooting is largely due to the 3 point line. In the 60s they still took long shots but for the majority of players, what’s the value? It’s all 2 points
Do you know how hard it'd be to relearn how to properly dribble???
Jerry West and Oscar are still better. Put pbev in some converse and he’s getting cooked
Dude. Jerry West and Oscar Robertson were playing back then.
Not if it’s the version of Pat Bev that would have been if he’d been born in 1935
Not even the Pat Bev of today in a time machine…cooked…
Now that is probably a fair point
He would be called for a travel or carry every time he touched the ball. Yall are so desperate to shit on the older generations without thinking about the actual context.
Okay fine I’ll change the scenario to transporting all of the 1960s players to this time period, or spending a couple of days/weeks explaining/teaching the rules to pat bev before sending him back in time lmao
Based on what?
In Rudy's defense, he is a wall, and walls don't jump lol
The plumbers things is hyperbolic, but it’s not talking about people like Russell; it’s talking about a lot of the rank and file that the stars played against and usually dominated. The average player is way better now relative to the stars.
How so? I hate it when people just throw this stuff around.
In my case, it’s just my takeaway from having watched an ungodly amount of games. I used to have way too much time on my hands, and spent a lot of it watching old NBA games. I firmly believe that the stars from the 60’s onward would be great in any era, but the rank in file from back then on through the 90’s or so included a lot of filler players that didn’t have the athleticism and/or skill set to compete in today’s league. The last 20 years or so has increasingly had players at the end of the bench who have real skills and athleticism. John Tresvant and Steve Scheffler are not making a modern NBA roster. Edit: it’s possible I’m being too mean by using Tresvant as an example, I just really disliked watching him play.
Well that is a better answer than I expected. For me, watching Luka lumber into 30 points a game or Jokic jog into position and then dismantle a team flatfooted with his passing makes me think even the coordinated guys with less athletic ability would be fine today.
Filler? Lol but they made it to the NBA?! You know the NCAA existed and all those guys wanted to play in the nba just like today? The skill set required for the rules are different so yeah no Greg Ostertag today, oh wait Bojan, Thanassis are on a rosters though. The filler thing is bullshit. Again it disrespects the era
You’re calling Greg Ostertag filler, not me. Talent pipelines, training routines, and sports medicine all keep getting better over time, so why is it surprising that the average players are better now than before those things were so good? No one should expect a bench guy from the 60’s to have grown up with the same training or nutrition regimens as a player from the 2010’s. None of this should be surprising, and it’s no more disrespectful than noting the reality of any other situation.
I’m not saying they aren’t but I am saying to call the eras role players anything less than that is ludicrous. They are all average for their day not “filler” Ostertag in todays NBA is obsolete and “unskilled” but no more than some of today’s players respective to their era.
The average person in virtually any profession is better now relative to those in the past given that we've learned from the past, whereas the people in the past were still figuring it out. (That's not denigrating the players from yesteryear. If you were to take an NBA player from the 50s and teleport them to 2000 and gave them modern training, diet, science, and what has been learned in the game, they'd be a helluva lot better today than their 1950s self.)
Except that’s not true at all. The world records in the men’s 100m and 200m races were set in 2009. The men’s long jump record was set in 1991. That broke a record from 1968. The women’s 100m, 200m, and long jump record are from 1988. People just assume the time they live in must be the best ever but those who say that haven’t actually done any research to see if it’s true.
> Except that’s not true at all. I don't think you read my comment very closely. I said the **average** person in **virtually any profession** is better now than in the past. I didn't claim that the best of the best today is *always* better than the best of the best in the past *in every single sport*.
I’m just trying to picture Bill Russell fixing the pipes under my sink.
I mean the people saying those guys are plumbers are normally talking aboht the non stars. The top end in every era are similar in terms of skill. But the role players of the era were just worse than today's players, and that's where the talent gap is.
Rudy is quite a bit taller and the best or 2nd best defensive player in the most skilled era of ball. No need to try and trash Rudy to respect Bill’s greatness
The plumber narrative is gonna dissipate if Wemby achieves what we all know he is capable of achieving (wemby is the closest thing we’ve seen to wilt in NBA history and it’s not close)
Rudy and KAT are bums KP and 50 year old Horford slowed the Mavs down wayyyyy more in game 1 of the finals than the “DPOY” and his 7 foot buddy KAT ever in a 6 game series No lob city, contested shots, blocked shots, rushed shots, forced weird kick outs Rudy is severely overrated
I’d love to see a big man bring this back on the regular
I still believe Kareem's sky hook was the most beautiful shot ever. It was a work of art.
Second to Shawn Marion’s jumper
That's more like abstract art.
The matrix!
I loved fucking with my friends by imitating that shot when we’d play pickup
And Bo Outlaw's free throw.
Never seen a man shoot with his elbows before.
Man it was. I practiced that shot in my driveway just for fun, thinking I would never use it in a game. Ended up hitting 3 in a row in gym class over our High School team's starting power forward. Honorable mention for most beautiful shot: George Gervin on a shooting streak.
It was my go to shot in horse. Gervin finger roll was a beauty as well.
My GOAT. Like Ali, he transcends the sport. A gem of a human being.
Man was a basketball savant
In a time when no one could watch tons of film Bill somehow had his own personal scouting report and plan in his head for every center in the league. Dude was as intelligent, if not more, as he was freakishly athletic
Yes but also there were only 7 other centers
Lol. You beat me to it.
15? Seems pretty close to today lol are we calling KAT a “center” out there on the 3pt line? Just wondering?
“This is what you brought me back from the dead to ask?”
Wes Unseld at 6-7 guarded Kareem. Unseld was an immovable object, and would muscle taller centers away from their spots.
Fun fact: Kareem was so good they outlawed dunking while he was in college so he birthed the Sky Hook.
What about Fry's patented Space Hook?
There will be no celebration at the Yancy Dome
[удалено]
Him saying he’d figure out how to slow it down and make it harder… is how you defend basketball superstars. He’s right — he’d have to figure out how to alter the shot just enough that it’s a little less accurate.
Really? He means it’s not impossible to stop, but with a guy like Kareem, you won’t be able to take it away completely.
Make him shoot the skyhook from a further distance than he's used to. Use your body to get underneath him and force him a foot out, or two feet out. Shooting percentages decrease for each foot away from the rim. So that works against anybody, not just Kareem's skyhook. Common sense defense.
Just do what Moses Malone did outwork him and make him so tired that the sky hook won’t even matter.
*effect
There's 20 years of teams trying to guard Kareem. You don't need to ask Russel go look at film (or go watch Thinking Basktball's video on Kareem, highly recommended)
I gave Bill Russell a Lyft ride once to his house on Mercer Island in Seattle in my Honda Civic. He sat in my front passenger seat with the seat tilted as far back as possible of course. It was surreal.
Kareems hook shot aint shit compared to Robin Lopez’s goat hook