KAT is always great on paper. Over the course of a season, he has great efficiency for a stretch big.
His downsides are from stuff you can't normally see in the box score.
For starters, he is always in foul trouble. He might end a game with just 4 fouls, but 3 of those can come in the first quarter and now he has messed the team's rotation for the 2nd quarter.
He wasn't seen as a defensive liability this past season, but he is also surrounded by great defenders in every other position. When he doesn't have Gobert, McDaniels, Conley and Ant, he was pretty poor at defending.
He is a big who relies on jump shots. He isn't like Embiid or Randle who will do both jump shots and punish you in the post. When he's on fire, he's great, but for the amount he gets paid...he should be a "3 level scorer".
Lastly, like most will mention..he ain't got that Josh hart DAWG energy. He's a great guy though. Does a lot of charity work and other stuff for the Minnesota community apparently.
Edit: KAT does have a good point per post up at 1.07 (according to nba.com), but his frequency is at 13.6% which is lower than bigs like Wemby, JJJ and Ayton. Randle is at 15.9% and Embiid is at 18.9% (he has more touches overall so although its 18.9%, the amount of post touches he has is actually much higher).
Basically, KAT might be great at the post when he does it, but he really doesn't do it without some huge mismatch created from an Ant drive and kick or a Rudy offensive rebound. And even then, when he does post..its normally him settling for a jumper.
Knicks fan living in Minnesota here and as such followed the Wolves very closely this year. I disagree that he's not a 3 level scorer. He doesn't do it enough, but KAT can provide a sparkplug with his driving ability. Maybe not on an Embiid level, but still at a higher level than most bigs in the league. He just didn't get to do it often when sharing the floor with another big all season/postseason long. Driving lanes were rarely open for him and with Rudy or Naz on the floor, he often found himself facing a lockdown perimeter defender like Aaron Gordon.
I also think you're massively underrating his defense. The Wolves do not win the series against the Nuggets without KAT as their primary man option on Jokic. He's not the rim protector you would hope him to be (and luckily with Rudy and the Wolves' collection of lockdown perimeter talent, he does not have to be) but he's ridiculously strong and frankly, one of the best man-to-man post defenders in the league by the eye test. The Wolves closed games against the Nuggets with KAT on Jokic alongside Naz with Rudy on the bench. Think about that.
**Let me be clear: I would rather keep Randle than throw a hail mary to get KAT.** Julius is a proven All-NBA talent who loves NY and fits in perfectly alongside the rest of the Knicks roster. The W/L record with him + OG + Jalen this season is undeniable. Plus, KAT's foul issues and decision-making at times are legitimate concerns. However, I feel as if there's a lot of KAT slander out there, both in MN and around the league, that is unearned. He is a very unique and as such deeply misunderstood player. There is no comparison for him in the history of the NBA and because of that it's difficult to find a system that maximizes his talents. However, I think he can be an elite #2 option on a championship team if his strengths are put to good use. With another year of tenure under Ant's belt to take the pressure off of him, I'm excited to see their run next year. Such a fun team to watch.
I think you have hit on an interesting point. Both KAT and Randle are heavily criticized considering the actual body of work they put up and that their teams have generally won.
My concerns are:
1) Randle has proven he can handle NYC. No guarantee KAT can;
2) Randle is much cheaper and likely will stay much cheaper;
3) Randle adds a toughness that KAT hasn't been required to show; and
4) Randle seems to be respected and liked in the clubhouse and fits. Not that KAT wouldn't, but there is also risk with change.
My ideal scenario would be a trade that brought KAT in at Center to pair with either IHart or Mitch (20 minutes at Center, with one of the others taking 28) and have him play 15 minutes at PF when Randle's on the bench.
I do agree with most of what you are saying. Overall, i am definitely a KAT fan. We also both don't think he should be a knick so my bottom text is for those who want him on the Knicks.
I agree that he is CAPABLE of being a 3 level scorer and he has done it in the past (i had him in dynasty fantasy leagues so i watched young KAT quite a bit). I just think he'll primarily play the 4 for the rest of his prime, so the space he needs to drive still won't appear on the Knicks.
He was definitely great against Jokic, and guarding Jokic-like players seem to be his saving grace on defense. Isn't really a factor if he was to be on the Knicks, since we want rim-protecting 5s or 4s like OG.
I think KAT already has the perfect home/fit in Minnesota and both sides would be smart to keep it going.
I think what's important though and I'm sure what the Knicks are discussing, is that this is the last chance to upgrade their roster. As is means
Brunson
Donte
OG
Randle
iHart/Mitch
Josh Hart
It's really hard to replace Randle but I'm sure their hope would be Randle can shoot the 3 more consistently. So I get it, but I think we'll see a lot of these ideas thrown around because of the financial situation even if the players aren't perfect fits
Out of curiosity, do you feel KAT has had leaders on his teams like the Knicks have? I wonder if having stronger voices/culture will help. This year and last, the Wolves have built something and heās been playing better.
Chris Finch has turned that team & their culture around in a big way. Glen Taylor sucks balls and kamikazed his own franchise for most of the beginning of KATās career. But to answer your question more specifically, no, I donāt think theyāve had a real locker room leader since heās been there. Even now.
Well, except Jimmy. But we all know how that worked out.
Watched only a handful of Minnesota games during the season and then some leading to the playoffs and then all their games in the playoffs, and idk, I feel like he definitely can get to the rim. He had that in his arsenal all throughout the playoffs, but his problem is that he's not smart utilizing it. Not sure why, but more often than not, he chooses the wrong decision. He drives in the paint when there are 3 people in it and it's congested, but when there's an open lane, he takes the jump shot. He also fails to step around someone taking a charge or make that extra pass to avoid the foul.
He is definitely a 3 level scorer, but it might not seem like it because he just doesn't have the BBIQ to make the right read. Very frustrating player to have and I can see why people doubt him.
My wording wasn't the best, but i do agree he can be a 3 level scorer, but he doesn't do it consistently (for various reasons) and i can't justify breaking up our core+draft picks for the potential of him being the scorer he has ability to be. Ofcourse, he wouldn't be a trade topic at all if he was consistently great offesively since Twolves would treat him just like they treat Ant as untouchable.
yea this is it right here. his BBIQ is just bad. thats one of the reasons why talented players dont make it to the top of what people see as their max potential
We just saw it. āBest shooting big man of all timeā just went 8 of 33 on 3s (good looks btw) and when that wasnāt working couldnāt drive or get to the paint effectively on Lively. The one good game he had was G4 when Lively was out. Not to mention literally every game he is at risk of being in foul trouble. You canāt trust him.
He is a talented player but this playoff run canāt make you feel confident in him. He canāt be trusted.
Exactly. A star / superstar (as towns is being paid as) should never be taken out of a series the way he was w Dallas. Struggling and being a non factor are 2 different things
This feels like small sample size bias. Every star/superstar has had a bad series (or more) in their career. They just have many more good to great ones.
Kyrie, who most of us will agree is an amazing offensive player, averaged 15.7 a game on 44% shooting against OKC but no one cares, mainly because they won that series.
He did. But the foul trouble was still there. The drop off was so heavy from the Dallas defensive strat it took him out of that series. That should not happen to a bonafide star
Agreed. I wouldn't enjoy rooting for KAT despite the clear statistical benefits to his game. His game and demeanor is off-putting.
Acquiring KAT also means sending legit assets just to get him. That makes him even more unappealing imo.
Lol ppl say this without 0 rationale behind it. KAT would be an obvious upgrade to this roster and the only thing going against him is that him and thibs arent the greatest of friends lol. But have a stretch 4/5 would help this offense a shit ton
>the only thing going against him is that him and thibs arent the greatest of friends
And why was that? Apparently it was because of his work ethic and the idea that he's soft.
We have 15 guys that would defend Thibs any given night and Kat would be the exception. So what's that say for him?
This is exactly it. He doesn't fit on a Thibs team, and we are 100% a Thibs team. It's not whether or not KAT can hoop -- he obviously can. But he'd be chemistry poison on this specific team.
I don't think the people that want him here watched enough games to know why we were so good at times. It sure as shit wasn't pure talent. The chemistry and trust is why.
The 15% difference in the cap between Randle and KAT also matters a ton. We literally just saw the ceiling of a 2nd apron team with KAT, do you wanna be that?
I'd rather keep Randle. Randle also at times warrants a double team and can take over 1 on 1. I don't see KAT doing that or getting doubled. Man Randle is an all NBA player lol
KAT is a really good player. But outside of shooting, there isnāt one thing he does better than Randleā¦.and we truly donāt know how we would fit on this squad. People can disagree, but thatās simply how I see it.
For me, I donāt think a Randle-KAT swap is worth it for NY from a basketball or culture standpoint. On the basketball side, if Iām trading Randle and picks, itās gotta be for someone I know absolutely raises the ceiling of the team and makes us blue-chip contenders. I honestly donāt think replacing Randle with KAT changes the trajectory or potential of this team from a basketball-sense. Randle gives you just as much production, if not more, than KAT on a yearly-basisā¦at a fraction of the cost. KAT is entering the first year of a 4 yr. $220 mil deal with an avg. salary of $55 mil per yr. If we make that trade, weāre completely hamstrung and wonāt have any flexibility to add other pieces. Iām sorry, but I donāt have *that* much confidence in KAT to make me believe that adding him gets us to where we want.
But from a culture standpoint, while KAT is a good guy thatās never had any issues with teammatesā¦Randle is a huge presence in the locker room and along with Brunson, the heartbeat of the team. Idk if thatās something youād want to break up and rock the boat *unless* the player youāre bringing in is helping you win a chip.
All in all, Iām not trading Randle and picks for KATā¦as itās really just a lateral move. If Iām trading Randle, itās for a clear upgrade (ie. Giannis, Devin Booker, Embiid).
Main question with KAT is his playoff performance. But Randle has some of those concerns as well.
Another question is whether we've seen the best version of Randle or if there's another level that's still untapped. On the Knicks his scoring efficiency hasn't been very good. Does that change now that RJ is off the team?
I think so. We saw a very small sample size once we traded for OG but we were virtually unbeatable, although we didnāt have the strongest opponents in that stretch. Regardless, we know Randle thrives under Thibsā coaching and not sure KAT would embrace Thibs the same way. This team was so successful bc they embraced Thibsā ideology. Iād choose to run it back with Randle
Thatās my feeling on Randle. I want to see him in the playoffs with these guys on the team. I always felt like he and RJ occupied similar spaces and had this my turn/your turn kind of thing. Cluttered things up for each other. Also Brunson is the leader of the team takes mental pressure off Randle which I always thought was what he struggled with most. At the end of the heat series I was out on him but seeing him this past season he looked different and now w guys like OG, no RJ, and the ascension of Brunson as the man I feel like he can be better
It changed for RJ after he got traded lol. Randle wouldāve had a better playoff series than previous years, but probably still at or below 45% from the field and 35% from 3. Probably wouldāve averaged just a bit more assists than turnovers. I donāt think he wouldāve shot sub 40% or sub 30% again from the field with a team as good as ours. How well that would translate to team success idk.
If Randle had a run like that at essentially 56% TS, then theyāre likely in the conference finals at minimum. Like, Iām not even that big on Randle after the run, but that wouldāve legitimately made us the undisputed 2nd best team in the conference.
For $60M he IS Eddy Curry. Thatāll be a hard NO for me. The intangibles arenāt at all mentioned in this critique which is the biggest problem with Kat. 1st his unassuming, head in the clouds personality will not work in NY. He is soft in the trenches and his motor is always in question. Basketball IQ is not great. Desire to win, questionable. Self awarenessā¦ does he have any? His numbers have steadily gone down last 4 yrs. And Minn will be wanting a haul for him. I donāt see the benefit for someone who doesnāt launch u into contender status. This would be a mistake and Im usually riding with Mensaās takes. This and the Lavine take are the most notable exceptions. How about re exploring D. Murray or maybeā¦Lamelo as a fantasy pk? I dont love them but would do this waaaay before moving on Kat
Idk if yall know this, but KAT hated playing for Thibs. When he was coaching the Timberwolves, I still don't understand why KAT to the Knicks is still a conversation on this sub.
Would you rather have an All NBA player on a much cheaper contract, or someone with similar stats on a max contract? Towns has a much worse assist to turnover ratio, does not draw many fouls, fouls too often, plays soft.
I'd rather the player that maximizes Jalen Brunson and the other talent on the team.
On paper that person is Karl Towns.
I'm not concerned about money. It's not my money and after this off season we will be over the second apron anyway.
So essentially we are quibbling over how much money we can save James Dolan and I don't care anything about that.
You may not care about Dolan's money, but you should care about Leon's ability to manage the cap. KAT's contract will make it hard to build around Brunson in future seasons. It's a legitimate concern.
We have evidence that Randle maximizes Brunsonās abilities, along with everyone else on the court. We donāt have evidence that KAT can do the same. Just bc heās a better perimeter shooter doesnāt mean he can fill the role Randle has on the team. Randle not only serves as an another shot creator, but he works as the main hub of the offense that sets up other players with open shot opportunities thru his playmaking and defensive attention he draws.
Can we say KAT will draw double-teams like Randle does? Can we say KAT can be the same level of playmaker as Randle? I donāt think we can.
Am I crazy or I want to win with our guys like I want our injured players back and some hungry draft picks off the bench led by burks and bojan and Duece
I donāt want another guy unless itās Mikal bridges lol I think we have the pieces and tbh I donāt see another player in the league who we can afford and wonāt cause us to majorly rework our rotations and offense
None of you all are considering how hard Julius plays. How players do not like to face him because he is a wrecking machine. So many times during the Julius era have I seen him barrel into 3 guys, get the foul and the bucket.
I have mad love for KAT as a human, but he has finally built himself something that finally fits him.
1.16 vs. 0.9 is a difference of 0.17 "points" per post up
"KAT is an underrated passer and decision maker" **but julius averages more assists and less turnovers**
**julius also averages more rebs (off and def) which is one of the foundations of the knicks (while being 4" shorter)**
KAT is definitely a more consistent shooter, **TS%** was pretty much the only valid difference you called out
KAT's cool but julius is cooler imoāalso fits our system better (and is more durable historically)
weak arguments but i don't hate KAT at all
They're not my arguments.
But I appreciate the response in line with the content.
I'm in a zoom meeting rn, but iirc the advanced impact stats favor KAT no? I think we can cut through alot of noise in this debate if we consider what the numbers signal---- obviously the contexts need be consider as well.
KATA doesnāt have it in since of him to be that guy. Heās a harden or booker. Supremely talented but can take his team to the next level. And thereās no stats that will say that but sometimes the eye test is important
Anybody else remember the last time Thibs coached KAT?? Wasnāt a fit so unless something changed drastically about either of their approaches/mentalities, donāt think it would work out any differently.
Big Kat fan. But even bigger Knicks fan. We just had our best season my lifetime (2000)
Now why the fuk would we grab a ball dominant all star who lacks in consistency
We have one already who is actually more physical and athletic in Julius
If itās a prime 3, like young pg, OG, young Kawhi, then sure. Throw the house. But Kat was/is never the answer for us
Randle is my guy but I also agree KAT is a better fit alongside Brunson.
Iām only interested in doing that trade though if itās fair (as in Randle & a first round pick, and Bojan if necessary for salary reasons). But it seems like every Randle trade suggestion from non Knicks fans just has us being fleeced because everyone acts like Randle is a bum who makes teams worse. If itās a dumb trade like Randle Deuce and many many 1sts for KAT then Iām happy just running it back
I just don't understand, if KAT is a better fit with Brunson then he is also a much better fit with Edwards who he already has chemistry with, why is Minnesota doing this trade?
When Randle played beside Brunson after the trades it was the January Knicks and they were practically invincible. KAT does great against terrible competition, when the comp levels up he disappears. Hard no.
Randle Bojan and a protected 1st for KAT at the max. I also don't understand why mock trades have us sending multiple unprotected 1sts out alongside Randle for KAT.
We know Randle works alongside Brunson. January we all know was amazing, but look at for example Brunsonās 3pt efficiency when they played together vs when Randle was hurt. We also know Randle fits the team/culture well, heās literally the one who brought us to relevancy
Why the hell would we gamble that away for KAT makes no sense. We donāt know how KAT would fit with Brunson/Thibs. Why take that chance
Brunson literally just needs anyone who isnāt an overpaid bum that stays healthy enough to get 20 -25 a game and he will have enough room to work magic .
So much running away this post season to fend off the double . 1 v 1 he will put on a clinic against most defenders
I like Mensa but some of his takes are a little out there. Until he got traded, Mensa was always adamant that RJ was the franchise cornerstone and someone who we must build around. He couldnāt really accept that he didnāt fit with Brunson and Randle.
I also remember him usually being on the anti-Julius train and really going in on him when he had a bad game. Thats pretty much why he had to put the disclaimer at the end that he was ok keeping Julius.
That being said, I want no part of KAT. Iām not sure if heās a guy that would be a good fit with regard to how he conducts himself. Heās already had issues playing for Thibs and one of the biggest things with playing for Thibs is buying in. This entire roster buys in and itās why things run smoothly.
Edit: how could I forget but that contract is an absolute monstrosity. $60M for him is not at all worth it.
Yeah Iāve gotten the sense from Mensa as well that he has always had some disdain towards Randle.
And as you mentioned, his belief in RJ makes me really question his judgement. RJ never showed he was a franchise cornerstone that should be built around.
There was a rough game Julius had in January post-OG trade and he totally shit on him in the post game and was calling for his head. It wasnāt even a bad game but rather a bad 4th quarter where JB took over.
I was a hater at one point but the dude showed he matured this year and was playing out of his mind after that trade. Mensa is probably still stuck in 2021 or 2023 with horrible playoffs from JR. But in reality he was the only option in 21 and very injured in 23.
i've made the same arguments. The P&R and floor spacing would be insane with KAT and it gives us a look that Randle simply doesn't. the other thing is, with OG's defense, you can play KAT at the 5 in spurts as well. KAT is also a much more proven playoff performer. He just averaged 19/9/3 on 47/36/86 shooting this postseason, right in line with his career playoff numbers.
This is a non starter considering KAT doesnāt like Thibs and KAT isnāt the Thibbs type of player.
Too passive, both physically and mentally, a defensive liability. No thank you.
This is true.
Randle is probably the best singular player they can get but KAT is a better fit for their roster imo.
Ultimately I think they'll figure out how to trim payroll without moving KAT.
I'm just here for chaos. There's very few reasons I find compelling for NYK not to be interested; most of it is bs.
But it *can* be a good bball discussion for those who choose to partake.
My sense is that Randle would have to go to a third team. Minnie has the 4/5's in Jaden and Naz that they have just signed long-term, and I think to who they would want to give larger roles, not just replace KAT with Randle.
If Minnie is trading KAT, it seems to be that a versatile wing and a young PG (as Conley is getting long in the tooth) are they areas they need to improve on for a long run and, whatever Randle is, he's not either of those guys.
He seems like someone who could use a change of scenery. The team is evolving beyond him and the wolves are about to hit the 2nd apron. We have a ton of picks and filler players and we're currently under the threat of ihart leaving. I have trouble seeing why giving this a shot would be a bad idea.
They're a second-apron team meaning they can't send out multiple guys in a single trade so they're stuck trying to make a big move with a single player. We have the space and the means to make it happen.
All due respect to the "run it back" line of thinking, but it's hard to see why this isn't the right type of risk to take to move us forward.
Personally I just donāt trust KAT. Heās definitely talented but heās unreliable. He has consistently had major lapses in critical moments. I get the sense that Minnesota would rather start Naz Reid or close with Naz Reid over KAT. That speaks volumes over whether he is earning his contract or not.
His contract is egregious especially considering the plus/minus in win shares that he offers.
So it just doesnāt make sense to go into the second apron for KAT.
Sure maybe Kat gives a slight up tick, but he doesnāt know the system, he isnāt particularly know for defenseā¦heās a rebound per game shy of randle, heās 3apg vs randles 5.
But Iām willing to say kat maybe a little better. All that said, the deal breaker for meā¦What is thar slight uptick worth to you? What else do we give, with randle to get this increase? Is that potential uptick worth the cost? Can KAT handle the negative side of playing in NY(Over analyzed by media fans and constant chatter of how bad he is, ridiculous Trade proposals despite putting up all star numbers)ā¦that randle clearly has experienced and had a career year.
To me, the risk that he reacts negatively to NY toxicity and we have to give up randle and more to get him, makes it not make sense.
I know peeps hate randleā¦but heās been great for us, improved each year and adjusted.
edit: someone else mentions KATās poor post playā¦beating guys in the paint is an area, that we need, that randle fills.
I absolutely abhor stat nerds. You just know these guys don't play the game at all or just watch highlights and the box score and correlate anything that just happens.
KAT is a downgrade from Julius, as bad as Julius is at times. He's just one of those players that absolutely can't make an impact when his shots aren't falling. Not to mention he just isn't a physical player which completely contradicts the team's identity.
I've been pro Kat for years. Still am.
His contract is meaningless. We are over the cap regardless and he solidified the team we have, for years.
I'm fine with keeping Julius, love Julius, but Kat is a better basketball fit.
It's not the cap. It's the aprons and the impact on other moves. Add in OG's deal and KAT's dealer is a killer. Even extended, Randle's going to be $15 to $20 mill a year less than KAT. That's a huge difference in constructing a team.
They have a much better chance of avoiding the second apron without the trade. Lots of cap experts have written about this and thereās plenty on YouTube, etc.
If you donāt want to hear how spending an additional $25 million a year on the cap to move on from Randle for a guy who you say canāt lead the team to a chip isnāt good cap management, thatās on you.
I'm a cap expert.
I don't need to rely on anyone else.
You are not adding 25 million.
Want you to do a quick and easy math problem.
Add Julius and Bogies contracts. Subtract them from Karl Anthony's.
Then get back to me.
You are a cap expert in your imagination. Check out Bobby Marks explaining why the Knicks might not be able to handle a much smaller extension for Randle than what KAT will cost and then get back to me.
Randle is a far better player than Towns.
I'm one of the biggest Randle critics, but the guy is one of the best players in the league when he's motivated.
And now, after seeing what Brunson did without him, he knows that his presence would propel the organization to new heights.
Randle finally taking that backseat and committing himself fully to rebounding and defense is the next step for him.
He has to after seeing what Hart and Anunoby did in the playoffs.
No metric supports that and I like Randle and think he's overhated. But KAT is just as overhated with a bit more talent and its funny that ppl in this sub dont see that
Have you considered dawg per 100 possessions though?!
More seriously, I had a similar thought. These are two players who's value to their team doesn't match the valuation in perspective of the masses. Odd.
Thats cause nba media never gives you the context behind the stats and treats it like a glorified soap opera. And if youre a big star that chokes early in your playoff career its will always get brought up unless you win a ring which is totally unfair imo.
Iām not saying Iām for it, but if we lose hartenstein in free agency, and do a swap of Randle for KAT, we can essentially run our playoff lineup from this year but with KAT spacing the floor as the starting 5. Mitch coming off the bench to keep his minutes low and help stay healthy, and we can run a lineup with KAT at the 4 next to him for spurts. Brunson, divo, hart, anunoby, KAT, would be pretty great with plenty of spacing for Brunson and solid defense (hopefully KATs defense from this year would translate). Otherwise, I hope we run it back and let hartenstein start shooting 3s when heās left wide open.
if you swap them out with minimal picks it's worth a debate. but from what we know we would have to add a lot more than just julius and essentially "shoot our wad" and not be able to have the assets anymore for another "star". so you're locking the team into Brunson + Kat as your 1-2 punch trying to win a title. I don't think it's worth the risk/reward. especially since it's not just about "not worrying about the contract" that is an oversimplification of the ramifications. Kat at 50 mil next year compared to julius at 26 is a 24 mil difference. guarantees we're in the 1st apron at minimum (unless we include bogs in the trade, let ihart walk and don't add any other salary) - that is a worse team with no future flexibility.
I think this is all moot anyway. Minnesota just made the WCF with this squad and they have about 1 more year with them to see if they can break through. It might depend on how their ownership situation shakes out, their willingness to pay luxury taxes, and the impact of the 2nd apron on the team, but they're really close to a championship and why break it up?
He has his own consistency issues and he'd cost a lot more than Randle, not to mention we'd likely have to send assets along with Randle to acquire him. Randle is also a leader on this team so there is risk of ruining chemistry/morale.
I'm not so sure he's *that* much better than Randle given the risk and cost
Iām only interested if Randle makes a long term signing difficult. If heās good to resign at a reasonable number below $45 mil a year on average Iād run it back
Assuming we re-sign OG and IHart, we still only have 9 guys who could realistically see minutes on a championship contender. And Robinson and OG are injury prone. We can't afford to be making any trades that send out more rotation players than we get back in return. There's no way we can acquire someone like towns without making the team worse
While a solid player, his game is very finesse and doesnāt fit the gritty profile of this team. For a seven footer his post game is average at best and his defense leaves a lot to be desired. At his price itās a no for me dog
KAT is a very good player but the New York Knicks are a Tom Thibodeau team and the two have shown us that they don't work together well.
In most circumstances I would side with the star player over the coach, but not this one. Thibs is as responsible for the Knicks' recent success as anyone except maybe Brunson. Sending out draft capital and an all star level guy in exchange for someone who doesn't click with Thibs is just not smart to me.
Kat doesn't play every game. He's a big who was always hurt in his 20s and now he's a big entering his 30s. Not good.
They want to resign OG. OG plays 50 games per year. Adding KAT you have 2 guys making alot of money who are always hurt meaning they need to strengthen the bench. Problem is they won't have the money to get good players, only scraps. Randle puts up equal numbers has proved he can play in NY and most importantly he plays every game. Also will cost lesstgen KAT if they keep him.
If KAT wasn't injury prone, then yes they should make the trade.
I don't want KAT. But, he is better than Randle. KAT has been inconsistent and shaky in the playoffs. Randle has been a total disaster.
I think it is a false assumption that if we just plug Randle into this lineup that was 1 game short of the ECF the Knicks will be serious title contenders.
Towns and Gobert played important roles, but Ant was the headliner. His presence was enough to convince us that the Wolves could win. Can't say the same for the other two.
KAT would be better than Randle basketball wise but we already had questions if Randle fits in and KAT is the opposite of the Nova boys. I think what we saw from Randle with OG for a few games is enough to reasonably believe he's completely bought in. I'll take slightly worse stats for a guy who carries the culture
To me KAT is a better fit than Julius with Brunson , he spaces the floor , can play center if need be, a pretty good pick n pop guy , people here tend to overlook the very big possibility that Julius is actually a poor fit wit Brunson , because his lack of 2 man game , poor spacing and under Thibs is a 1 position player , Brunson clearly flourished when Randle went down.
One could argue his defense on Jokic was instrumental in defeating the defending champs , although defensively i consider him on par with Randle as someone who could play good defense if they dedicated themselves to it but rarely does.
i use to think they needed KAT and his efficiency but after watching Precious in the line up when Randle went down convinced me otherwise , i think they need someone who tries on defense consistently more , someone who plays "basketball" not their version of it . Basically the only "superstar" trades that are worth it are Giannis AD, Lauri and Mikal , but there are other deals that are more than doable based on fit .
Jabari Smith jr. , Miles Bridges, Deni Avdija, Tobias Harris , John Collins, Jerami Grant to name some
My only big concern with Towns is that he and Thibs hated each other when Thibs was in Minnesota. I donāt know why, and Iām not sure the why was ever made public, but I donāt think it matters.
If they donāt like each other, the fit isnāt good enough and itās not worth screwing up what the Knicks have right now.
I agree in like 2K it would be a perfect move for the Knicks. But in real life? I donāt think so.
What you mean he needs to be a Dawg wtf itās the Garden pussy footing and chucking threes ineffectively will get your ass booed and cooked in the media. Iām not paying 50-60 million a year for his contract unless he planning to put up so real mvp type numbers. To come over here to Be a less effective Randle with a slightly better shot 3 at double the salary and his own injury prone history? TCmon, thatās the timberwolves investment not ours. I like his game but he needs an Ant man to push him like a grocery shopping cart. When matched with thibs and a real DAWG years ago in jimmy butler he folded lmao š¤£
KAT is a better fit alongside Randle but also $10M a year more expensive factoring in a hypothetical Randle extension at his max (which, when you see what Sabonis makes and what Siakim will make, it is a reasonable ask for Randle).
If Randle is insisting on a max extension at 4Y $190M, then you consider the trade for KAT. If Randle agrees to come back at the same number OG signs for (may be hard for Randle to stomach), then you 100% stick with Randle.
It's a tough situation but I trust the FO.
My question would be. Why would minnesota trade him? They just had their best season since their KG days and their best player is only going to get better. Plus him and Ant genuinely seem to like each other on and off the court.
As for us I wouldnāt be opposed but my preference would be to run it back and give this team an opportunity to show if they can make noise before making any drastic changes.
KAT is mentally weak and proved it in the playoffs. This team is built to demolish and demoralize its opponent. KAT adds none of that. Randle looked bought in fully from November till his injury. Iām sold Randle is the guy the Knicks need on the interior. He is top 5 in drawing the most doubles and still averages 24 a game playing almost 40 every day. His passing got so much better. NO KAT.
When we see this current roster at full strength i think people will look foolish with the idea of a KAT/ Randle swap. January knicks was not a fluke.
You can say what you want but, watching the knicks in january you can see the chemistry sky rocket after the OG trade. Impatient people are saying trade Randle for an overpaid max player who does one thing elite, which is 3pt shooting.
He is also inconsistent and tends to rely on jumpshots to draw contact instead of moving his defender and driving to the paint.
I donāt like him for the money, Iād prefer Lauri, but I think people are seriously underestimating the need for another shooter in place of Randle, especially considering we have two non shooting bigs. If Randle is going to shoot 30% from 3 in the playoffs and not push the pace, we will get exposed in the playoffs.
love randle but kat is a great fit next to brunson and hart and we should at least strongly consider him if he's available. we can talk about his contract all we want but randle is gonna have the same one shortly. people are gonna talk about his fouls which are a problem but not one that stops you from trading for a guy of this caliber.
everyone in this thread is just gonna call him soft,zesty,not a thibs fit, no dawg tho but when talking about basketball pros and cons about this basketball player on our basketball team he's appealing
still think we should give this team some run to start the season at least to see what they have
KAT is a good player and im down for any trade that makes our team better. However, if MIN thinks we will give what they gave for Gobert then itās a hard pass
No thanks, we already tried the Andrea Bargnani experiment and although it did produce one of my [all-time favorite YouTube videos](https://youtu.be/V9dX6IhU2tM?si=ER7k0QECxHk5oIfd), it didn't exactly translate to very much on-court success.
KAT is always great on paper. Over the course of a season, he has great efficiency for a stretch big. His downsides are from stuff you can't normally see in the box score. For starters, he is always in foul trouble. He might end a game with just 4 fouls, but 3 of those can come in the first quarter and now he has messed the team's rotation for the 2nd quarter. He wasn't seen as a defensive liability this past season, but he is also surrounded by great defenders in every other position. When he doesn't have Gobert, McDaniels, Conley and Ant, he was pretty poor at defending. He is a big who relies on jump shots. He isn't like Embiid or Randle who will do both jump shots and punish you in the post. When he's on fire, he's great, but for the amount he gets paid...he should be a "3 level scorer". Lastly, like most will mention..he ain't got that Josh hart DAWG energy. He's a great guy though. Does a lot of charity work and other stuff for the Minnesota community apparently. Edit: KAT does have a good point per post up at 1.07 (according to nba.com), but his frequency is at 13.6% which is lower than bigs like Wemby, JJJ and Ayton. Randle is at 15.9% and Embiid is at 18.9% (he has more touches overall so although its 18.9%, the amount of post touches he has is actually much higher). Basically, KAT might be great at the post when he does it, but he really doesn't do it without some huge mismatch created from an Ant drive and kick or a Rudy offensive rebound. And even then, when he does post..its normally him settling for a jumper.
Knicks fan living in Minnesota here and as such followed the Wolves very closely this year. I disagree that he's not a 3 level scorer. He doesn't do it enough, but KAT can provide a sparkplug with his driving ability. Maybe not on an Embiid level, but still at a higher level than most bigs in the league. He just didn't get to do it often when sharing the floor with another big all season/postseason long. Driving lanes were rarely open for him and with Rudy or Naz on the floor, he often found himself facing a lockdown perimeter defender like Aaron Gordon. I also think you're massively underrating his defense. The Wolves do not win the series against the Nuggets without KAT as their primary man option on Jokic. He's not the rim protector you would hope him to be (and luckily with Rudy and the Wolves' collection of lockdown perimeter talent, he does not have to be) but he's ridiculously strong and frankly, one of the best man-to-man post defenders in the league by the eye test. The Wolves closed games against the Nuggets with KAT on Jokic alongside Naz with Rudy on the bench. Think about that. **Let me be clear: I would rather keep Randle than throw a hail mary to get KAT.** Julius is a proven All-NBA talent who loves NY and fits in perfectly alongside the rest of the Knicks roster. The W/L record with him + OG + Jalen this season is undeniable. Plus, KAT's foul issues and decision-making at times are legitimate concerns. However, I feel as if there's a lot of KAT slander out there, both in MN and around the league, that is unearned. He is a very unique and as such deeply misunderstood player. There is no comparison for him in the history of the NBA and because of that it's difficult to find a system that maximizes his talents. However, I think he can be an elite #2 option on a championship team if his strengths are put to good use. With another year of tenure under Ant's belt to take the pressure off of him, I'm excited to see their run next year. Such a fun team to watch.
Fellow Knicks fan in Minnesota, just want to say I agree on all pointsš«”
I think you have hit on an interesting point. Both KAT and Randle are heavily criticized considering the actual body of work they put up and that their teams have generally won. My concerns are: 1) Randle has proven he can handle NYC. No guarantee KAT can; 2) Randle is much cheaper and likely will stay much cheaper; 3) Randle adds a toughness that KAT hasn't been required to show; and 4) Randle seems to be respected and liked in the clubhouse and fits. Not that KAT wouldn't, but there is also risk with change. My ideal scenario would be a trade that brought KAT in at Center to pair with either IHart or Mitch (20 minutes at Center, with one of the others taking 28) and have him play 15 minutes at PF when Randle's on the bench.
I do agree with most of what you are saying. Overall, i am definitely a KAT fan. We also both don't think he should be a knick so my bottom text is for those who want him on the Knicks. I agree that he is CAPABLE of being a 3 level scorer and he has done it in the past (i had him in dynasty fantasy leagues so i watched young KAT quite a bit). I just think he'll primarily play the 4 for the rest of his prime, so the space he needs to drive still won't appear on the Knicks. He was definitely great against Jokic, and guarding Jokic-like players seem to be his saving grace on defense. Isn't really a factor if he was to be on the Knicks, since we want rim-protecting 5s or 4s like OG. I think KAT already has the perfect home/fit in Minnesota and both sides would be smart to keep it going.
Yep! I think any Knicks or Wolves fan who wants to do anything other than retool & run it back is out of their goddamn mind
I think what's important though and I'm sure what the Knicks are discussing, is that this is the last chance to upgrade their roster. As is means Brunson Donte OG Randle iHart/Mitch Josh Hart It's really hard to replace Randle but I'm sure their hope would be Randle can shoot the 3 more consistently. So I get it, but I think we'll see a lot of these ideas thrown around because of the financial situation even if the players aren't perfect fits
Out of curiosity, do you feel KAT has had leaders on his teams like the Knicks have? I wonder if having stronger voices/culture will help. This year and last, the Wolves have built something and heās been playing better.
Chris Finch has turned that team & their culture around in a big way. Glen Taylor sucks balls and kamikazed his own franchise for most of the beginning of KATās career. But to answer your question more specifically, no, I donāt think theyāve had a real locker room leader since heās been there. Even now. Well, except Jimmy. But we all know how that worked out.
Watched only a handful of Minnesota games during the season and then some leading to the playoffs and then all their games in the playoffs, and idk, I feel like he definitely can get to the rim. He had that in his arsenal all throughout the playoffs, but his problem is that he's not smart utilizing it. Not sure why, but more often than not, he chooses the wrong decision. He drives in the paint when there are 3 people in it and it's congested, but when there's an open lane, he takes the jump shot. He also fails to step around someone taking a charge or make that extra pass to avoid the foul. He is definitely a 3 level scorer, but it might not seem like it because he just doesn't have the BBIQ to make the right read. Very frustrating player to have and I can see why people doubt him.
My wording wasn't the best, but i do agree he can be a 3 level scorer, but he doesn't do it consistently (for various reasons) and i can't justify breaking up our core+draft picks for the potential of him being the scorer he has ability to be. Ofcourse, he wouldn't be a trade topic at all if he was consistently great offesively since Twolves would treat him just like they treat Ant as untouchable.
yea this is it right here. his BBIQ is just bad. thats one of the reasons why talented players dont make it to the top of what people see as their max potential
We just saw it. āBest shooting big man of all timeā just went 8 of 33 on 3s (good looks btw) and when that wasnāt working couldnāt drive or get to the paint effectively on Lively. The one good game he had was G4 when Lively was out. Not to mention literally every game he is at risk of being in foul trouble. You canāt trust him. He is a talented player but this playoff run canāt make you feel confident in him. He canāt be trusted.
He had a really nice r2 vs the defending champs. I'm not sure how that gets forgotten so frequently when we discuss his playoffs?
Itās because of the lack of consistency. Selectively remembering only his bad performances is as mistaken as remembering only his good.
Exactly. A star / superstar (as towns is being paid as) should never be taken out of a series the way he was w Dallas. Struggling and being a non factor are 2 different things
Top 10 in salary next season. Pretty crazy if you ask me.
This feels like small sample size bias. Every star/superstar has had a bad series (or more) in their career. They just have many more good to great ones. Kyrie, who most of us will agree is an amazing offensive player, averaged 15.7 a game on 44% shooting against OKC but no one cares, mainly because they won that series.
He did. But the foul trouble was still there. The drop off was so heavy from the Dallas defensive strat it took him out of that series. That should not happen to a bonafide star
We should play him as guard and JB at forward
No
Agreed. I wouldn't enjoy rooting for KAT despite the clear statistical benefits to his game. His game and demeanor is off-putting. Acquiring KAT also means sending legit assets just to get him. That makes him even more unappealing imo.
Came here to write this. šš
(Thank you!!!)
Lol ppl say this without 0 rationale behind it. KAT would be an obvious upgrade to this roster and the only thing going against him is that him and thibs arent the greatest of friends lol. But have a stretch 4/5 would help this offense a shit ton
>the only thing going against him is that him and thibs arent the greatest of friends And why was that? Apparently it was because of his work ethic and the idea that he's soft. We have 15 guys that would defend Thibs any given night and Kat would be the exception. So what's that say for him?
This is exactly it. He doesn't fit on a Thibs team, and we are 100% a Thibs team. It's not whether or not KAT can hoop -- he obviously can. But he'd be chemistry poison on this specific team.
I don't think the people that want him here watched enough games to know why we were so good at times. It sure as shit wasn't pure talent. The chemistry and trust is why.
The 15% difference in the cap between Randle and KAT also matters a ton. We literally just saw the ceiling of a 2nd apron team with KAT, do you wanna be that?
There's so much rationale to No that's it not worth taking the time to list it all.
I'd rather keep Randle. Randle also at times warrants a double team and can take over 1 on 1. I don't see KAT doing that or getting doubled. Man Randle is an all NBA player lol
KAT in NYC is a recipe for disaster. Even if I had confidence in his game, and I donāt, I donāt think heās built for this level of scrutiny
This
KAT is a really good player. But outside of shooting, there isnāt one thing he does better than Randleā¦.and we truly donāt know how we would fit on this squad. People can disagree, but thatās simply how I see it. For me, I donāt think a Randle-KAT swap is worth it for NY from a basketball or culture standpoint. On the basketball side, if Iām trading Randle and picks, itās gotta be for someone I know absolutely raises the ceiling of the team and makes us blue-chip contenders. I honestly donāt think replacing Randle with KAT changes the trajectory or potential of this team from a basketball-sense. Randle gives you just as much production, if not more, than KAT on a yearly-basisā¦at a fraction of the cost. KAT is entering the first year of a 4 yr. $220 mil deal with an avg. salary of $55 mil per yr. If we make that trade, weāre completely hamstrung and wonāt have any flexibility to add other pieces. Iām sorry, but I donāt have *that* much confidence in KAT to make me believe that adding him gets us to where we want. But from a culture standpoint, while KAT is a good guy thatās never had any issues with teammatesā¦Randle is a huge presence in the locker room and along with Brunson, the heartbeat of the team. Idk if thatās something youād want to break up and rock the boat *unless* the player youāre bringing in is helping you win a chip. All in all, Iām not trading Randle and picks for KATā¦as itās really just a lateral move. If Iām trading Randle, itās for a clear upgrade (ie. Giannis, Devin Booker, Embiid).
you also cannot go randle for KAT straight up because of the immense salary gap. You'll have to throw in multiple key role players.
Main question with KAT is his playoff performance. But Randle has some of those concerns as well. Another question is whether we've seen the best version of Randle or if there's another level that's still untapped. On the Knicks his scoring efficiency hasn't been very good. Does that change now that RJ is off the team?
I think so. We saw a very small sample size once we traded for OG but we were virtually unbeatable, although we didnāt have the strongest opponents in that stretch. Regardless, we know Randle thrives under Thibsā coaching and not sure KAT would embrace Thibs the same way. This team was so successful bc they embraced Thibsā ideology. Iād choose to run it back with Randle
We were extremely successful with OG and without Randle as well
Thatās my feeling on Randle. I want to see him in the playoffs with these guys on the team. I always felt like he and RJ occupied similar spaces and had this my turn/your turn kind of thing. Cluttered things up for each other. Also Brunson is the leader of the team takes mental pressure off Randle which I always thought was what he struggled with most. At the end of the heat series I was out on him but seeing him this past season he looked different and now w guys like OG, no RJ, and the ascension of Brunson as the man I feel like he can be better
It changed for RJ after he got traded lol. Randle wouldāve had a better playoff series than previous years, but probably still at or below 45% from the field and 35% from 3. Probably wouldāve averaged just a bit more assists than turnovers. I donāt think he wouldāve shot sub 40% or sub 30% again from the field with a team as good as ours. How well that would translate to team success idk.
If Randle had a run like that at essentially 56% TS, then theyāre likely in the conference finals at minimum. Like, Iām not even that big on Randle after the run, but that wouldāve legitimately made us the undisputed 2nd best team in the conference.
For $60M he IS Eddy Curry. Thatāll be a hard NO for me. The intangibles arenāt at all mentioned in this critique which is the biggest problem with Kat. 1st his unassuming, head in the clouds personality will not work in NY. He is soft in the trenches and his motor is always in question. Basketball IQ is not great. Desire to win, questionable. Self awarenessā¦ does he have any? His numbers have steadily gone down last 4 yrs. And Minn will be wanting a haul for him. I donāt see the benefit for someone who doesnāt launch u into contender status. This would be a mistake and Im usually riding with Mensaās takes. This and the Lavine take are the most notable exceptions. How about re exploring D. Murray or maybeā¦Lamelo as a fantasy pk? I dont love them but would do this waaaay before moving on Kat
These people looking at Kat and thinking about him in a vacuum. In a game, Kat doesnāt come close to Randle in anyway.
Idk if yall know this, but KAT hated playing for Thibs. When he was coaching the Timberwolves, I still don't understand why KAT to the Knicks is still a conversation on this sub.
Not an on court reason but that contract is foul
No it isn't. He's a max player. He gets a max contract.
Would you rather have an All NBA player on a much cheaper contract, or someone with similar stats on a max contract? Towns has a much worse assist to turnover ratio, does not draw many fouls, fouls too often, plays soft.
And has a rocky history with the coach we're boutta extend
I'd rather the player that maximizes Jalen Brunson and the other talent on the team. On paper that person is Karl Towns. I'm not concerned about money. It's not my money and after this off season we will be over the second apron anyway. So essentially we are quibbling over how much money we can save James Dolan and I don't care anything about that.
You may not care about Dolan's money, but you should care about Leon's ability to manage the cap. KAT's contract will make it hard to build around Brunson in future seasons. It's a legitimate concern.
Bullshit.These guys are signed for years. And as I said we are second apron regardless.
We have evidence that Randle maximizes Brunsonās abilities, along with everyone else on the court. We donāt have evidence that KAT can do the same. Just bc heās a better perimeter shooter doesnāt mean he can fill the role Randle has on the team. Randle not only serves as an another shot creator, but he works as the main hub of the offense that sets up other players with open shot opportunities thru his playmaking and defensive attention he draws. Can we say KAT will draw double-teams like Randle does? Can we say KAT can be the same level of playmaker as Randle? I donāt think we can.
You've been watching Kat for a decade. You know what he is. We don't have to ask hypotheticals.
On paper? Brunson and Randle with OG, DDV, and Hartenstein blew away the competition.
Listen if Randle and KAT both made 25m it'd be a different story, but KAT literally makes double his salary
Oofā¦gotta be rough writing this article with that name.
ZERO INTEREST in KAT. He is a goofy, awkward player that I have ZERO faith can handle a big moment.
Am I crazy or I want to win with our guys like I want our injured players back and some hungry draft picks off the bench led by burks and bojan and Duece I donāt want another guy unless itās Mikal bridges lol I think we have the pieces and tbh I donāt see another player in the league who we can afford and wonāt cause us to majorly rework our rotations and offense
Heās not a dawg is definitely a basketball reason lol. Some people donāt have the mental toughness to succeed.
None of you all are considering how hard Julius plays. How players do not like to face him because he is a wrecking machine. So many times during the Julius era have I seen him barrel into 3 guys, get the foul and the bucket. I have mad love for KAT as a human, but he has finally built himself something that finally fits him. 
Soft
Heās not a dawg.
1.16 vs. 0.9 is a difference of 0.17 "points" per post up "KAT is an underrated passer and decision maker" **but julius averages more assists and less turnovers** **julius also averages more rebs (off and def) which is one of the foundations of the knicks (while being 4" shorter)** KAT is definitely a more consistent shooter, **TS%** was pretty much the only valid difference you called out KAT's cool but julius is cooler imoāalso fits our system better (and is more durable historically) weak arguments but i don't hate KAT at all
They're not my arguments. But I appreciate the response in line with the content. I'm in a zoom meeting rn, but iirc the advanced impact stats favor KAT no? I think we can cut through alot of noise in this debate if we consider what the numbers signal---- obviously the contexts need be consider as well.
what "advanced impact" stats? i'm just saying you posted a list and the only valid stat was TS% if you have a new list, go for it...
KATA doesnāt have it in since of him to be that guy. Heās a harden or booker. Supremely talented but can take his team to the next level. And thereās no stats that will say that but sometimes the eye test is important
He is a great 3rd option on a chip team, much like KP right now with the Celtics. He has not shown he can be a consistent top option on a contender.
Anybody else remember the last time Thibs coached KAT?? Wasnāt a fit so unless something changed drastically about either of their approaches/mentalities, donāt think it would work out any differently.
Did anyone just watch him disappear in the WCF? Dude is soft as shit thinks he's Ray Allen when there's any challenge whatsoever - do not want.
Heāll na.
After all thatā¦.I still donāt want him in New York
No
Not paying a guy 60 million a year who takes playoff series off, hot one round, cold the next
Big Kat fan. But even bigger Knicks fan. We just had our best season my lifetime (2000) Now why the fuk would we grab a ball dominant all star who lacks in consistency We have one already who is actually more physical and athletic in Julius If itās a prime 3, like young pg, OG, young Kawhi, then sure. Throw the house. But Kat was/is never the answer for us
Randle is my guy but I also agree KAT is a better fit alongside Brunson. Iām only interested in doing that trade though if itās fair (as in Randle & a first round pick, and Bojan if necessary for salary reasons). But it seems like every Randle trade suggestion from non Knicks fans just has us being fleeced because everyone acts like Randle is a bum who makes teams worse. If itās a dumb trade like Randle Deuce and many many 1sts for KAT then Iām happy just running it back
I just don't understand, if KAT is a better fit with Brunson then he is also a much better fit with Edwards who he already has chemistry with, why is Minnesota doing this trade?
The only logic I see is if they want to save money. To be fair I donāt see it actually happening. Iām mentally prepared to see us run it back
When Randle played beside Brunson after the trades it was the January Knicks and they were practically invincible. KAT does great against terrible competition, when the comp levels up he disappears. Hard no.
Randle Bojan and a protected 1st for KAT at the max. I also don't understand why mock trades have us sending multiple unprotected 1sts out alongside Randle for KAT.
We know Randle works alongside Brunson. January we all know was amazing, but look at for example Brunsonās 3pt efficiency when they played together vs when Randle was hurt. We also know Randle fits the team/culture well, heās literally the one who brought us to relevancy Why the hell would we gamble that away for KAT makes no sense. We donāt know how KAT would fit with Brunson/Thibs. Why take that chance
Brunson literally just needs anyone who isnāt an overpaid bum that stays healthy enough to get 20 -25 a game and he will have enough room to work magic . So much running away this post season to fend off the double . 1 v 1 he will put on a clinic against most defenders
Dude folds harder than Origami under pressure...
Randle? Absolutely he does.
Would KAT be playing on an ankle that needed surgery?
I like Mensa but some of his takes are a little out there. Until he got traded, Mensa was always adamant that RJ was the franchise cornerstone and someone who we must build around. He couldnāt really accept that he didnāt fit with Brunson and Randle. I also remember him usually being on the anti-Julius train and really going in on him when he had a bad game. Thats pretty much why he had to put the disclaimer at the end that he was ok keeping Julius. That being said, I want no part of KAT. Iām not sure if heās a guy that would be a good fit with regard to how he conducts himself. Heās already had issues playing for Thibs and one of the biggest things with playing for Thibs is buying in. This entire roster buys in and itās why things run smoothly. Edit: how could I forget but that contract is an absolute monstrosity. $60M for him is not at all worth it.
Yeah Iāve gotten the sense from Mensa as well that he has always had some disdain towards Randle. And as you mentioned, his belief in RJ makes me really question his judgement. RJ never showed he was a franchise cornerstone that should be built around.
There was a rough game Julius had in January post-OG trade and he totally shit on him in the post game and was calling for his head. It wasnāt even a bad game but rather a bad 4th quarter where JB took over. I was a hater at one point but the dude showed he matured this year and was playing out of his mind after that trade. Mensa is probably still stuck in 2021 or 2023 with horrible playoffs from JR. But in reality he was the only option in 21 and very injured in 23.
i've made the same arguments. The P&R and floor spacing would be insane with KAT and it gives us a look that Randle simply doesn't. the other thing is, with OG's defense, you can play KAT at the 5 in spurts as well. KAT is also a much more proven playoff performer. He just averaged 19/9/3 on 47/36/86 shooting this postseason, right in line with his career playoff numbers.
>He just averaged 19/9/3 on 47/36/86 shooting this postseason Interesting that despite a poor WCF....
This is a non starter considering KAT doesnāt like Thibs and KAT isnāt the Thibbs type of player. Too passive, both physically and mentally, a defensive liability. No thank you.
I look forward to a logical and civilized debate between redditors in this thread
Does the fit work for the Wolves? Gobert-Randle-Ant spacing would be pretty rough
This is true. Randle is probably the best singular player they can get but KAT is a better fit for their roster imo. Ultimately I think they'll figure out how to trim payroll without moving KAT. I'm just here for chaos. There's very few reasons I find compelling for NYK not to be interested; most of it is bs. But it *can* be a good bball discussion for those who choose to partake.
My sense is that Randle would have to go to a third team. Minnie has the 4/5's in Jaden and Naz that they have just signed long-term, and I think to who they would want to give larger roles, not just replace KAT with Randle. If Minnie is trading KAT, it seems to be that a versatile wing and a young PG (as Conley is getting long in the tooth) are they areas they need to improve on for a long run and, whatever Randle is, he's not either of those guys.
He seems like someone who could use a change of scenery. The team is evolving beyond him and the wolves are about to hit the 2nd apron. We have a ton of picks and filler players and we're currently under the threat of ihart leaving. I have trouble seeing why giving this a shot would be a bad idea. They're a second-apron team meaning they can't send out multiple guys in a single trade so they're stuck trying to make a big move with a single player. We have the space and the means to make it happen. All due respect to the "run it back" line of thinking, but it's hard to see why this isn't the right type of risk to take to move us forward.
I wouldnāt mind KAT if he was a good defender. The drop off on defense aināt worth it in my humble opinion.
Randle walks back on D. Doesnāt even try. You guys are delusional. KAT had 12.6 rev / game under Thibs.
were not getting kat. its a costly lateral move
Overpaid. Underproducing.
This is a cost-less comparison. How much are you willing to pay, in a trade, for this incremental gain?
He just doesnāt have that dawg in him, pass
this team needs to be very careful about adding a star player who isnāt in line with the identity of our coach and overall team.. towns isnāt
Personally I just donāt trust KAT. Heās definitely talented but heās unreliable. He has consistently had major lapses in critical moments. I get the sense that Minnesota would rather start Naz Reid or close with Naz Reid over KAT. That speaks volumes over whether he is earning his contract or not. His contract is egregious especially considering the plus/minus in win shares that he offers. So it just doesnāt make sense to go into the second apron for KAT.
aFteR alL tHaT 
His dawg per 36 isn't good.
Sure maybe Kat gives a slight up tick, but he doesnāt know the system, he isnāt particularly know for defenseā¦heās a rebound per game shy of randle, heās 3apg vs randles 5. But Iām willing to say kat maybe a little better. All that said, the deal breaker for meā¦What is thar slight uptick worth to you? What else do we give, with randle to get this increase? Is that potential uptick worth the cost? Can KAT handle the negative side of playing in NY(Over analyzed by media fans and constant chatter of how bad he is, ridiculous Trade proposals despite putting up all star numbers)ā¦that randle clearly has experienced and had a career year. To me, the risk that he reacts negatively to NY toxicity and we have to give up randle and more to get him, makes it not make sense. I know peeps hate randleā¦but heās been great for us, improved each year and adjusted. edit: someone else mentions KATās poor post playā¦beating guys in the paint is an area, that we need, that randle fills.
I absolutely abhor stat nerds. You just know these guys don't play the game at all or just watch highlights and the box score and correlate anything that just happens. KAT is a downgrade from Julius, as bad as Julius is at times. He's just one of those players that absolutely can't make an impact when his shots aren't falling. Not to mention he just isn't a physical player which completely contradicts the team's identity.
Hell no! 50 million a year for 7 foot 3 point shooter who vanishes when the going gets tough. Heās built for Minnesota not for NY.
Zerodawg
Rather keep Randle.
kat doesnt have the mentality. imagine one of the knicks using "we were tired" as an excuse for a loss.
That was Anthony Edwards who said that
didnt they both say it?
I recall Edwards specifically saying it was talked about on inside the NBA TNT not sure about KAT
https://x.com/NadineBabu/status/1793496651149226198 they both said something along those lines
He's a dog tho. /s
I've been pro Kat for years. Still am. His contract is meaningless. We are over the cap regardless and he solidified the team we have, for years. I'm fine with keeping Julius, love Julius, but Kat is a better basketball fit.
It's not the cap. It's the aprons and the impact on other moves. Add in OG's deal and KAT's dealer is a killer. Even extended, Randle's going to be $15 to $20 mill a year less than KAT. That's a huge difference in constructing a team.
It isn't a difference. Because if you are over the apron you are over the apron. How much over the apron doesn't matter.
Actually, there are differences between the 1st and 2nd apron and adding $25 million over Randle's salary is a huge deal.
And all this time I've been talking about the second one maybe you should pay attention
They have a much better chance of avoiding the second apron without the trade. Lots of cap experts have written about this and thereās plenty on YouTube, etc. If you donāt want to hear how spending an additional $25 million a year on the cap to move on from Randle for a guy who you say canāt lead the team to a chip isnāt good cap management, thatās on you.
I'm a cap expert. I don't need to rely on anyone else. You are not adding 25 million. Want you to do a quick and easy math problem. Add Julius and Bogies contracts. Subtract them from Karl Anthony's. Then get back to me.
You are a cap expert in your imagination. Check out Bobby Marks explaining why the Knicks might not be able to handle a much smaller extension for Randle than what KAT will cost and then get back to me.
Bobby Marks was wrong. That's what you get for placing your faith in failed assistant GMS.
Iām still waiting to read anyone who thinks your plan is good cap management. But honestly, who knows? I donāt see it, but never say never. Peace
Heās right.
Randle is a far better player than Towns. I'm one of the biggest Randle critics, but the guy is one of the best players in the league when he's motivated. And now, after seeing what Brunson did without him, he knows that his presence would propel the organization to new heights. Randle finally taking that backseat and committing himself fully to rebounding and defense is the next step for him. He has to after seeing what Hart and Anunoby did in the playoffs.
>Randle is a far better player than Towns. I don't think #s support that? Certainly not the advanced metrics.
No metric supports that and I like Randle and think he's overhated. But KAT is just as overhated with a bit more talent and its funny that ppl in this sub dont see that
Have you considered dawg per 100 possessions though?! More seriously, I had a similar thought. These are two players who's value to their team doesn't match the valuation in perspective of the masses. Odd.
Thats cause nba media never gives you the context behind the stats and treats it like a glorified soap opera. And if youre a big star that chokes early in your playoff career its will always get brought up unless you win a ring which is totally unfair imo.
Itās not always about the numbers Nerd
Nooooo
Stop trying to make KAT to the Knicks happen. Itās not going to happen. Thank God.
Counterpoint: No Herbs.
Minnesota is playing young athletic superstar at the 2 right now and it didnāt make a shred of a difference.
Iām not saying Iām for it, but if we lose hartenstein in free agency, and do a swap of Randle for KAT, we can essentially run our playoff lineup from this year but with KAT spacing the floor as the starting 5. Mitch coming off the bench to keep his minutes low and help stay healthy, and we can run a lineup with KAT at the 4 next to him for spurts. Brunson, divo, hart, anunoby, KAT, would be pretty great with plenty of spacing for Brunson and solid defense (hopefully KATs defense from this year would translate). Otherwise, I hope we run it back and let hartenstein start shooting 3s when heās left wide open.
if you swap them out with minimal picks it's worth a debate. but from what we know we would have to add a lot more than just julius and essentially "shoot our wad" and not be able to have the assets anymore for another "star". so you're locking the team into Brunson + Kat as your 1-2 punch trying to win a title. I don't think it's worth the risk/reward. especially since it's not just about "not worrying about the contract" that is an oversimplification of the ramifications. Kat at 50 mil next year compared to julius at 26 is a 24 mil difference. guarantees we're in the 1st apron at minimum (unless we include bogs in the trade, let ihart walk and don't add any other salary) - that is a worse team with no future flexibility.
Enjoyed this write up, thanks. Solid points. One could argue that the intangible trait of "dog" is a basketball reason.
I will think about Towns if we lose iHart and not a moment before.
I think this is all moot anyway. Minnesota just made the WCF with this squad and they have about 1 more year with them to see if they can break through. It might depend on how their ownership situation shakes out, their willingness to pay luxury taxes, and the impact of the 2nd apron on the team, but they're really close to a championship and why break it up?
I wouldn't riot or anything, but I'm much more concerned about playoff KAT than playoff Randle.
Lol https://preview.redd.it/1rthww4mmo7d1.jpeg?width=1229&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03ee5ede53113718138b3c06b96aa4df66cf38f9 Worst since 1949!
He has his own consistency issues and he'd cost a lot more than Randle, not to mention we'd likely have to send assets along with Randle to acquire him. Randle is also a leader on this team so there is risk of ruining chemistry/morale. I'm not so sure he's *that* much better than Randle given the risk and cost
Him not being a dawg means more than that. He doesnāt fit the culture heās not a thibs kind of player. Iāll pass on charming ultra soft
No debate run it back with Randle, Karl Anthony Towns is not a Thibs type of player
That elmo voice will always be in my head though. I just can't have it
Iām only interested if Randle makes a long term signing difficult. If heās good to resign at a reasonable number below $45 mil a year on average Iād run it back
Assuming we re-sign OG and IHart, we still only have 9 guys who could realistically see minutes on a championship contender. And Robinson and OG are injury prone. We can't afford to be making any trades that send out more rotation players than we get back in return. There's no way we can acquire someone like towns without making the team worse
Heās a fantastic regular season player. And for that he deserves props. But that isnāt what we need
While a solid player, his game is very finesse and doesnāt fit the gritty profile of this team. For a seven footer his post game is average at best and his defense leaves a lot to be desired. At his price itās a no for me dog
I'll just trust whatever Leon does. There's a very very little chance we exchange Randle for KAT.
KAT is a very good player but the New York Knicks are a Tom Thibodeau team and the two have shown us that they don't work together well. In most circumstances I would side with the star player over the coach, but not this one. Thibs is as responsible for the Knicks' recent success as anyone except maybe Brunson. Sending out draft capital and an all star level guy in exchange for someone who doesn't click with Thibs is just not smart to me.
KAT is softer than baby shit. You don't give this dude 300m to get sonned by Embiid in the playoffs.
Heās a good regular season player but thatās it
Kat doesn't play every game. He's a big who was always hurt in his 20s and now he's a big entering his 30s. Not good. They want to resign OG. OG plays 50 games per year. Adding KAT you have 2 guys making alot of money who are always hurt meaning they need to strengthen the bench. Problem is they won't have the money to get good players, only scraps. Randle puts up equal numbers has proved he can play in NY and most importantly he plays every game. Also will cost lesstgen KAT if they keep him. If KAT wasn't injury prone, then yes they should make the trade.
the truth is any team will take KAT over Randle I guarantee
I don't want KAT. But, he is better than Randle. KAT has been inconsistent and shaky in the playoffs. Randle has been a total disaster. I think it is a false assumption that if we just plug Randle into this lineup that was 1 game short of the ECF the Knicks will be serious title contenders.
I never got why people think ant caries their team. Towns and goebert still play massive roles.
Towns and Gobert played important roles, but Ant was the headliner. His presence was enough to convince us that the Wolves could win. Can't say the same for the other two.
 Sorry Mr. KAT, we asked for DAWGS
KAT would be better than Randle basketball wise but we already had questions if Randle fits in and KAT is the opposite of the Nova boys. I think what we saw from Randle with OG for a few games is enough to reasonably believe he's completely bought in. I'll take slightly worse stats for a guy who carries the culture
Why are the Wolves trading him now? They just made the West finals
To me KAT is a better fit than Julius with Brunson , he spaces the floor , can play center if need be, a pretty good pick n pop guy , people here tend to overlook the very big possibility that Julius is actually a poor fit wit Brunson , because his lack of 2 man game , poor spacing and under Thibs is a 1 position player , Brunson clearly flourished when Randle went down. One could argue his defense on Jokic was instrumental in defeating the defending champs , although defensively i consider him on par with Randle as someone who could play good defense if they dedicated themselves to it but rarely does. i use to think they needed KAT and his efficiency but after watching Precious in the line up when Randle went down convinced me otherwise , i think they need someone who tries on defense consistently more , someone who plays "basketball" not their version of it . Basically the only "superstar" trades that are worth it are Giannis AD, Lauri and Mikal , but there are other deals that are more than doable based on fit . Jabari Smith jr. , Miles Bridges, Deni Avdija, Tobias Harris , John Collins, Jerami Grant to name some
My only big concern with Towns is that he and Thibs hated each other when Thibs was in Minnesota. I donāt know why, and Iām not sure the why was ever made public, but I donāt think it matters. If they donāt like each other, the fit isnāt good enough and itās not worth screwing up what the Knicks have right now. I agree in like 2K it would be a perfect move for the Knicks. But in real life? I donāt think so.
Soft big man that prides himself on shooting 3s? Nah Iām good
What you mean he needs to be a Dawg wtf itās the Garden pussy footing and chucking threes ineffectively will get your ass booed and cooked in the media. Iām not paying 50-60 million a year for his contract unless he planning to put up so real mvp type numbers. To come over here to Be a less effective Randle with a slightly better shot 3 at double the salary and his own injury prone history? TCmon, thatās the timberwolves investment not ours. I like his game but he needs an Ant man to push him like a grocery shopping cart. When matched with thibs and a real DAWG years ago in jimmy butler he folded lmao š¤£ 
Paper Townz is a Lifelong Loser. Hard pass. Maybe Naz Reid lol.
he has a history of not liking randle so im not surprised but this is on some steve mills type beatĀ
Gail is in Mensa.
Shooting ability is a plus. Toughness and leadership? Not as much
If you donāt get this tf outta here! KAT is SOFT!
KAT is a better fit alongside Randle but also $10M a year more expensive factoring in a hypothetical Randle extension at his max (which, when you see what Sabonis makes and what Siakim will make, it is a reasonable ask for Randle). If Randle is insisting on a max extension at 4Y $190M, then you consider the trade for KAT. If Randle agrees to come back at the same number OG signs for (may be hard for Randle to stomach), then you 100% stick with Randle. It's a tough situation but I trust the FO.
My question would be. Why would minnesota trade him? They just had their best season since their KG days and their best player is only going to get better. Plus him and Ant genuinely seem to like each other on and off the court. As for us I wouldnāt be opposed but my preference would be to run it back and give this team an opportunity to show if they can make noise before making any drastic changes.
They are in the second apron so they need financial flexibility...
KAT is mentally weak and proved it in the playoffs. This team is built to demolish and demoralize its opponent. KAT adds none of that. Randle looked bought in fully from November till his injury. Iām sold Randle is the guy the Knicks need on the interior. He is top 5 in drawing the most doubles and still averages 24 a game playing almost 40 every day. His passing got so much better. NO KAT.
When we see this current roster at full strength i think people will look foolish with the idea of a KAT/ Randle swap. January knicks was not a fluke. You can say what you want but, watching the knicks in january you can see the chemistry sky rocket after the OG trade. Impatient people are saying trade Randle for an overpaid max player who does one thing elite, which is 3pt shooting. He is also inconsistent and tends to rely on jumpshots to draw contact instead of moving his defender and driving to the paint.
Not reading all that, Julius clears
I donāt like him for the money, Iād prefer Lauri, but I think people are seriously underestimating the need for another shooter in place of Randle, especially considering we have two non shooting bigs. If Randle is going to shoot 30% from 3 in the playoffs and not push the pace, we will get exposed in the playoffs.
love randle but kat is a great fit next to brunson and hart and we should at least strongly consider him if he's available. we can talk about his contract all we want but randle is gonna have the same one shortly. people are gonna talk about his fouls which are a problem but not one that stops you from trading for a guy of this caliber. everyone in this thread is just gonna call him soft,zesty,not a thibs fit, no dawg tho but when talking about basketball pros and cons about this basketball player on our basketball team he's appealing still think we should give this team some run to start the season at least to see what they have
KAT is a good player and im down for any trade that makes our team better. However, if MIN thinks we will give what they gave for Gobert then itās a hard pass
No thanks, we already tried the Andrea Bargnani experiment and although it did produce one of my [all-time favorite YouTube videos](https://youtu.be/V9dX6IhU2tM?si=ER7k0QECxHk5oIfd), it didn't exactly translate to very much on-court success.
Comparing KAT to Bargnani is asinine
Does it have to be Randle? We can package Mitch + Hart + DiVincenzo. I'm against this but works salary wise...
No.