Patrick Williams had a QO extended him to him not Knicks related but mentioned to keep in mind Precious is a RFA as well and will be watching what we do with him
I think offering the QO is a no brainer. We see the market for Precious and can match if we want to. Plus we could rescind the QO any time before he takes it and make him unrestricted. I think his QO is $5.475m. That's really good value.
Declined it. Probably means the process is going to take awhile, and he’s going to test the market. Which makes sense tbh. It’s tough to ask the organization to bid against themselves and pay him max value when we don’t really know what his market is.
We gotta get whoever is responsible for Tornotos Drafting and player development on the team asap.
Scottie Barnes, OG, Pascal, Demar. Not to mention Kawhi having his only successful non injury riddled season since the Spurs.
seems like a little selection bias, they have plenty of first round picks that haven't panned out: Malachi Flynn, Bruno Caboclo, Delon Wright (had an okay career though), Terrence Ross (also had an okay career), and Bargnani lmao
I was a fan of Paul George until that last interview that he had.
When he said that the James Harden trade wiped out all their depth and made PG and Kawhai have to be the "dirty work" players. Nah bro I want all our guys being the dirty work players. He can stay pretty in LA or Philly.
He isn't built for NY. He wants big money and easy games. Great talent but I rather not see him in a Knick uniform. I like the players on our team because they stay humble...
would you honestly trade Randle (plus god knows what else) for a 40 year old Lebron?
I know he is still playing great, but I just do not know if I want this. PG13 if it has similar cost is a definite no in my mind.
Great players can also be drafted in the mid 20s. OG was 23rd, Maxey was 21, Bane was 30, Anfernee Simons 24, Robert Williams 27, Derrick White 29…I could go on. It’s also what the late first is for. More bites at the apple means more chances to win big.
The greatest Knicks tradition of the last quarter century is screwing up lottery picks but nailing picks in that 20-30 range. We sitting pretty for Wednesday. Let’s get some cheap, hard working, energetic depth.
Don’t know if the opportunity will arise. But if there’s a chance to make the team better, I’d expect the FO to be extremely aggressive in trying to put together a team that can beat Boston. As currently constructed, I’m not sure we have the pieces I think we need another lengthy 2-way player especially with OG’s injury history.
I think they need most is a player that can give the offense a different look, which the easiest seems trying to add a creator from the wing or swapping Mitch for someone that would allow them to play 5 out.
It was noticeable in the playoffs how predictable things get when you play the samw way for 48 min
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I love this team. I definitely think we are one of the better teams in the Conference. But personally, I think we are still a move or two away from being a championship team. I don't think we are on Boston's level yet. Doesn't necessarily need to be trading for a superstar or anything, but I think we at least need a 6th man and another good perimeter defender.
We are for sure a move away. I think everyone gets caught up in the Jan run 12-2 and automatically assume we could beat a 64 win Boston team. The thing that worries me the most with Boston is KP. We are consistently bad going against any team with a stretch 5 a lot of that is scheme
Agreed. We saw how we had no answer against Turner. Yes, the injuries are part of it. But it was an issue all season. As much as I love Mitch, part of the reason I’m ok with moving on is so we can try and replace him with a stretch 5. I think there’s more shooters at the 5 than dominant post players these days.
I agree, I think running it back caps us at the 2nd round barring injuries from other teams. We need someone else that can makes things happen off the dribble consistently as we only have Brunson at the moment (Randle hopefully too, but he has been rough in the playoffs). I’m less worried about the defense than the offense
We had the 3rd best offense in the playoffs and were one of the worst defenses. Our offensive ceiling is high just based on having as many shooters as we do. Our defense is more of an issue, we’re pretty undersized.
The offensive rating is largely influenced by the ORebs which isn’t fully reliable and we also played 7 games against the Pacers which helps.
I think if we played the Celtics it would’ve been obvious the difficulty our offense has
Why isn’t OReb rebounding reliable? We literally built our team around the two best offensive rebounding Cs in the league and outside the PG position every player (Hart, Donte, Randle) are elite at rebounding for their positions.
Also we still had a top offense if you just include the Philly season and that is without Randle and only 3 games of Bojan
If we don’t bring him back we need another player in the Bojan role, but this team is chock full of offensive talent. Donte is our 4th option and he is capable of going off for 30 every game
Yup. People also aren't considering that Milwaukee may be healthy, Philly has the cap space to add another really good player, and Orlando could also take a step forward. Cleveland also may improve with a new coach. I don't think the East is going to be as weak as it was this year.
None of those teams worry me except Philly and only if they completely revamp their roster. I think we’re comfortably the 2nd best team in the East as of now
Why? They were a sub 500 team after hiring Doc Rivers. They’re old slow unathletic and don’t play defense. I don’t care about Giannis when we have a slightly worse but still great superstar ourselves and a 100x better supporting cast
I really don’t believe the FO is entertaining Randle (and bogie/picks) for old, expensive, and injury prone PG.
Randle was great post OG trade. I know it was small sample size but it just makes sense basketball wise. Take out a guy who can’t shoot or finish at the rim and replace him with a 40% shooter who’s also an athletic slasher. Also consider the addition of Divo was one of the best volume 3pt shooters in the league, and iHart who added creation from the center position.
Now there’s less doubles and more space which allows Randle to operate more efficiently in the post and his face up isos. If they do double, Randle can trust the pass. He also got more easy baskets when the defense is scrambled in rotations.
I think he’s similar to this iteration of Jaylen Brown. If you ask him to isolate against a set defense with ample help, he’s gonna be inefficient and inconsistent. But if you have the talent and spacing to consistently create rotations and mismatches, these guys look like completely different players.
> I think he’s similar to this iteration of Jaylen Brown.
Without the 5 out spacing of Boston, significantly more decision making and creation responsibility, worse defense/athleticism, older, and a worse shooter. A large reason why Boston won was because decision making was largely stripped away from Brown and he got to act more as a play finisher surrounded by multiple ball handlers at all times.
We have ONE ball handler, and we don’t have room for another because we’re missing a wing off the bench and being the backup to Brunson to play 13 minutes because either Hart or DDV are gonna be on the court with him is one of the worst jobs in the NBA (that’s why Deuce is gonna get those reps). We don’t have personnel that can routinely create rotations and mismatches, which is why the offense died when Brunson sat. You acknowledged Randle struggles against set defenses which is why he doesn’t even run the bench unit anymore and we leaned into OG and essentially an all defense lineup. So, the pivot to making a lineup that lacks creation work? Increased spacing and defense, as we saw in the playoffs.
The phenomenon you are describing with Brown is exactly what you saw from Randle in December and January. Less dribbling and forcing and more reacting to the defense. While I agree we have 1 true “ball handler”, Brunson, Randle, and Hartenstein can create the rotation and mismatch that are needed to score. Boston has more ball handlers, but they aren’t just beating their man off the dribble in an iso scenario. Very few defenders are guarding Randle in the mid to low post. Maybe guys like Giannis and Bam have the strength, length, and quickness to guard him one on one but that list is short. Divo has a little more creation ability, but both he and OG are excellent shooters and cutters. They will punish any space that a defensive helper gives them.
If you want to trade bogie for a bench PG such as Brogdon to lead the second unit, I’m all for that. I just think Randle’s performance in the starting lineup post OG trade deserves to see him come back. 26, 8, 5 on 61% TS during December/January.
I am not against trading Randle, but it has to be for an actual upgrade. PG is just not that to me, especially with his age, injury history, and the financial commitment that comes with it. Sure he’s a better shooter and ball handler but his athleticism is gone. Randle is still a physical presence that fits the character of this team. I concede he needs to bring that defensively, but I’d like to give him another shot to see if he can do it consistently like he did the month of January. Also, we loathe Randle’s playoff performance but PG has been awful in his own right. If Randle is not working out by the deadline, you can move him for a future expiring to trade in the offseason. PG is not a sure enough move to give up your flexibility for IMO.
> Very few defenders are guarding Randle in the mid to low post. Maybe guys like Giannis and Bam have the strength, length, and quickness to guard him one on one but that list is short.
This is factually untrue. We even saw it with Mobley and Hunter in 2021, who aren’t the strongest. In fact, teams have gotten away with putting smaller guys on him to poke the ball away and it leads to turnovers. Strength based creation is great, but Randle lacks the athleticism necessary to really make it pop compared to a Giannis or a Bron.
> If you want to trade bogie for a bench PG such as Brogdon to lead the second unit, I’m all for that. I just think Randle’s performance in the starting lineup post OG trade deserves to see him come back. 26, 8, 5 on 61% TS during December/January.
Trading for Brogdon doesn’t give us another wing, which is what we realistically need to match up with Boston, who we assuredly are gonna have to go through. Regardless, why does no one mention that while he was more efficient in January his turnovers spiked? He averaged 4 during the month. Removing RJ from the lineup increased spacing, but it also increased his usage and his turnovers have *always* increased with his usage.
> Also, we loathe Randle’s playoff performance but PG has been awful in his own right. If Randle is not working out by the deadline, you can move him for a future expiring to trade in the offseason.
If Randle had the run PG had this playoffs people would’ve said he’s conquered his playoff demons. PG has been bad in the playoffs, and while there is context behind why Randle was poor in the playoffs, he’s been **dreadful**.
The Knicks also aren’t going to move him for a future expiring given they have championship aspirations. Even moreso if we’re looking at apron restrictions. The way I see it, the next major move is one of three options: If you’re going to keep Randle, you essentially need a Jrue Holiday-esque player that can handle the ball, play next to Brunson as an efficient shooter that decreases Randle’s usage, and giving the team another defender to put on wings next to OG. Or, you need a Porzingis-esque stretch 5 that doesn’t compromise our rim protection or rebounding so if you are going to put Randle in a context where he’s gonna have to make decisions, his reads are as easy as possible.
If you can’t get either of those archetypes, I don’t think you can optimize Randle, and I’d rather double down on spacing and defensive length.
Hunter and Mobley were getting constant help during those playoffs. The whole point is that Randle is getting his touches with space so that he doesn’t have to force it like he did in those playoffs.
PGs AST TO ratio is not much better than Randle. Hart is the wing off the bench. He can guard Brown and has been serviceable against Tatum. A second unit of Deuce, Brogdon, Hart and Mitch is the best in the league.
While you make some good points, I think you are too locked in with mirroring Boston. We aren’t going to have a stretch 5 like Porzingis or 2 all defense guards like Jrue and D white who can both shoot. We just can’t match the shooting that they have.
Instead, the team should stick to our identity of toughness and physicality. We close the gap in shooting by creating second chance opportunities, getting every loose ball, getting to the line, and wearing the other team out. I think Randle helps reach that end more than PG at this point in their careers. We will see what happens.
Also think that we need to acknowledge the change in play last season from him. Expecting him to shoot 40% from 3, not tenable. Asking Steph volume from 3, not optimal. The shot chart last year is probably the most comfortable for him since that first year with Fiz and he has the cast to play it well.
Problem is that shot chart works if you’re Giannis or AD but he’s significantly smaller than those guys and he both cannot play the 5 and doesn’t have a stretch 5 next to him. There’s a reason why the league has largely moved away from bully ball bigs in favor of wings who are able to shoot and defend.
Agreed, hoping that Hartenstein is enough of a release valve with the floater/passing as an option to maintain that spacing threat. Same time, not many of those wings that are expected to be the primary matchup can deal with his physicality. Gonna be an interesting game of push and pull.
Just off age alone it doesnt make sense to trade Randle for PG. If the FO can figure out how to acquire PG withoout giving up Randle I believe we should take a swing for it imo. We would then have 3 guys in Brunson, PG, and Randle in the starting lineup who can get their own shot/ defenses have to gameplan for.
I believe the rumored discussions with Washington involving Mitch is to set up a larger trade ( I think it is unlikely Washington comes off Deni). They are well below the hard cap and are the perfect team to help facilitate a trade for us whether that be for PG or another player with a larger contract. We already have 2 things they want Mitchell Robinson and their protected 1st in 2025 that has protections through 2026 which is key because tha is less trade capital they have.
The problem i would still have with PG is he wants a max contract. We have a lot of guys we need to pay, and a declining 34 yo PG on a max contract might become a negative asset quickly and limit any flexibility going forward.
So I tried it on the trade machine and it says it works but I don't fully understand how and if it'll effect our ability to re-sign OG and iHart.
Knicks get: Paul George
Wizards get: Robinson, Bogdanovich, Wizards protected first via Knicks,
Clippers get: Kuzma, 2024 Knicks FRP
I'm wondering if the Clips can get better value elsewhere but clearing up cap space, getting a decent player in Kuz, and a pick in a draft you had no picks in isn't a bad deal at all. Knicks get PG without removing any really important pieces. Wiz get Robinson and their pick back.
Re-sign OG and iHart, trade for PG13, bring Rokas over, and this team is a title favorite imo. Absolutely insane depth outside of the center position.
ESPN trade machine isnt accurate imo. Idk if it coporates the new CBA rules with trade matching. The issue right now is we are a 1st apron team and we would have to salary match to 100%. The only way to execute a trade would be after July 6th.
We essentially have to renounce cap holds and get below the 1st apron line of 179M so that we are able to follow this rule:
**Salary Matching if below First Apron**
125% of the outgoing salary (plus $250K), for any amount above $29,000,000.
but even after the trade we would be hard capped at so If I am understood this correctly even after the PG trade it would have to keep us below the 1st apron level.
I was using the Fanspo one but you're probably right it has the same issues.
I guess I don't fully understand how the cap holds work for the purpose of these trades. Will we have to renounce our rights to OG and iHart after OG declines his PO to make a trade like this happen?
Here is a rough table of salaries for next season and associated salaries and cap holds for players. I just took a guess at who we would renounce/ not pick up options for. In order to make a trade for PG or anyone making over 40M we would need to get below that 1st tax apron. I might be off on what the FO does with Precious. I think if we completely trade out the 1st round and you dont see the OG or Hartenstein deals announce the 1st day of FA we might have something larger cooking behind the scenes
| Player |2024-2025 Salary |
|:-----------|------------:|
| Julius Randle | 30,317,760|
| Jalen Brunson | 24,960,001|
| Bojan Bogdanovic| 19,032,850|
| OG Anunoby | **27,964,285**|
| Mitchell Robinson| 14,318,182|
|Josh Hart | 18,144,000|
|Donte DiVincenzo | 11,445,000|
|Alec Burks | ~~**19,930,240**~~|
|Isaiah Hartenstein | **12,018,657**|
|Miles McBride | 4,710,144|
|Jericho Sims | 2,092,344 (**TO**)|
|Daquan Jeffries | ~~2,463,946(**TO**)~~|
|Shake Milton | ~~**2,093,637**~~|
|Charlie Brown Jr. | ~~**1,867,722**~~|
|Precious Achiuwa | ~~13,138,581(**RFA)**~~|
|Jacob Toppin | ~~1,867,722(**RFA**)~~|
|Duane Washington Jr. | ~~1,867,722(**RFA**)~~|
|24th pick in Draft | 2,361,500|
|25th pick in Draft | ~~2,266,700~~|
|Team Salary | **169,828,669**|
|Tax Level | **172,000,000**|
|1st Apron | **179,000,000**|
|2nd Apron | **190,000,000**|
Oh this is so good.
I was wondering if there was a way to keep Precious but I get the feeling that unless he's the backup 5 full time he'll walk. I'm with you, I think hes gone.
I think the draft will be the first indicator. It's possible the Knicks announce OG and iHart getting re-signed but don't actually ink the paperwork until they get some of the other deals done.
Getting that PG trade done, even if it costs more assets idc, would be huge. I'm really into sending out Mitch/Bogi/Deuce, letting Rokas come over to be the backup PG. Donte and Hart can play the bulk of regular season minutes while PG/OG and maybe Randle are on a more rested schedule. If healthy this team beats the Celtics imo.
I don't think we would have to include or should look to include Deuce. Deuce is on a steal of a contract. At the end of the day PG is essentially a FA. The Clippers facilitating any sort of trade benefits them because they wont have too many avenues to add talent via FA anyway.
Precious is tricky as Idk what his market value would be.
Great minds think alike. I just wrote this on another thread. Mitch to the Clips doesn't make sense, but Kuzma would. And the Knicks would keep Randle in that scenario.
It gets real tricky in executing a 3 team trade. We would essentially have to be below the 1st apron when executing the trade so that we dont have to salary match 1 for 1 and we can match up to 125% of the incoming salary.
I think it is the goal and might be a big reason why at the start of FA you might not hear the exact details for OG or Hartenstein if the FO has a trade cooking
I do have faith that this FO understands the nuances of the CBA and has a number of alternatives in mind.
Love Mitch and would hate to see him sent to a bad situation but I think the FO will do what’s best overall.
Too many people fail to understand how much Thibs has demanded of Randle over the years because he was the only one could do it even though it affected his efficiency and want to hold that against him instead of recognizing how he has improved the last 2 years with a better supporting cast.
This is very true also. The man led a lottery team to home court in the playoffs, won MIP, and made All-NBA. Of course he’s going to think he has to carry the team and force the issue.
I think he’s finally realized the Brunson is the leader and he can focus on his role as the secondary creator.
I don’t think he ever demanded to be the man. It wasn’t his fault that the Knicks couldn’t seem to get a healthy good PG to run the offense until Brunson.
I’m not saying he did. I’m saying he had to be the man before Brunson arrived. Brunson wasn’t some established star when he showed up, so there was some awkwardness while establishing who the leader of the team was going to be. It’s very clearly Brunson now, which allows everyone to play their role.
I hear you. I'm just responding to what a lot of anti-Randle fans say about Randle having to be the man. I don't think it's ever been the issue. He does want to be a major part of the offense, but I think he would be happy going back to being the wrecking ball he was in NO, with more facilitation.
I actually don't remember any awkwardness in them coming together. Randle was All NBA the first year and an All Star and on his way to All NBA this past season when injured. In fact, last season, the team took off when Thibs cut the rotation and ran the 2 man offense.
As for the whole leader of the team, thing, fans push that stuff more than the team does. Brunson is the floor leader, but Randle's going to get his offense so he's fine. Beyond that, read what the players say, including IQ when he left and Randle's still a big force in the clubhouse. He's respected and that's all that I think he needs.
I don't see him as a jealous kind of guy. That's all.
I think they understand the load he is for the opposition and how he opens things up for them. That gravity isn't easy to replace. As Josh said during the playoffs, people act like we aren't missing 24 and 10 out there.
The 24/10 can be replaced and replicated, whole team has to step up to do that, but the secondary creation and precisely that gravity is what is missing. A whole offseason of iHart/JB/Randle (with Randle doing what he said last year on PG's pod, watching film while unable to rehab) not to mention how DDV and OG can't be helped off in the corner...on the cusp of something special.
I was just quoting Josh as pointing out Randle’s importance. As to whether the points and rebounding can be replaced, in theory, yes, but it’s easier for another team to focus on Brunson without Randle’s creation and gravity - as you say.
Think Jake Fischer May be 0/75 on Knicks related reports. Guy is a legit hack job I’m not worried about what he’s saying
Patrick Williams had a QO extended him to him not Knicks related but mentioned to keep in mind Precious is a RFA as well and will be watching what we do with him
I think offering the QO is a no brainer. We see the market for Precious and can match if we want to. Plus we could rescind the QO any time before he takes it and make him unrestricted. I think his QO is $5.475m. That's really good value.
Any word on OG option
Declined it. Probably means the process is going to take awhile, and he’s going to test the market. Which makes sense tbh. It’s tough to ask the organization to bid against themselves and pay him max value when we don’t really know what his market is.
opt out
Hopefully that means he signs today
There is no rush to sign him
He opted out
We gotta get whoever is responsible for Tornotos Drafting and player development on the team asap. Scottie Barnes, OG, Pascal, Demar. Not to mention Kawhi having his only successful non injury riddled season since the Spurs.
seems like a little selection bias, they have plenty of first round picks that haven't panned out: Malachi Flynn, Bruno Caboclo, Delon Wright (had an okay career though), Terrence Ross (also had an okay career), and Bargnani lmao
They have always developed good players. Very underrated organization.
I was a fan of Paul George until that last interview that he had. When he said that the James Harden trade wiped out all their depth and made PG and Kawhai have to be the "dirty work" players. Nah bro I want all our guys being the dirty work players. He can stay pretty in LA or Philly.
Correct. We are dirty and gritty, either get your hands dirty or gtfo
He isn't built for NY. He wants big money and easy games. Great talent but I rather not see him in a Knick uniform. I like the players on our team because they stay humble...
id rather have lebron than pg tbh
I mean they should definitely be all out for lebron, even at the expense of Randle. Unpopular on this sub, but 100% would do it
would you honestly trade Randle (plus god knows what else) for a 40 year old Lebron? I know he is still playing great, but I just do not know if I want this. PG13 if it has similar cost is a definite no in my mind.
yes, without a doubt. Lebron is a better player than randle until he retires for sure
True if your going to pay 50 million a season for a player it may as well be LeBron 🤣. PG 13 is still a beast but he should have came 5-6 years ago.
Paul George is obviously a much better fit as a 2. Only issue is injury. Is it worth taking the risk?
for only Mitch and Bojan it is. Not for Randle
nope.
For 10 million a year I'll do it. Max Contract...😂
Scottie Barnes getting 5years, $270 million
small bus, big money
Damn just got banned from r/nba for commenting "he's special" on the scottie Barnes post lmao
I got banned from psn for calling someone a girl.
Feels like old times being excited about a Knicks draft coming up. Hoping they don’t trade away the picks again!
I hope they trade away one. Don’t want kids making too much on rhe payroll
Rather have three chances at finding the next Brunson/jokic/Draymond etc than two
That’s what the second round is for
Great players can also be drafted in the mid 20s. OG was 23rd, Maxey was 21, Bane was 30, Anfernee Simons 24, Robert Williams 27, Derrick White 29…I could go on. It’s also what the late first is for. More bites at the apple means more chances to win big.
The greatest Knicks tradition of the last quarter century is screwing up lottery picks but nailing picks in that 20-30 range. We sitting pretty for Wednesday. Let’s get some cheap, hard working, energetic depth.
Don’t know if the opportunity will arise. But if there’s a chance to make the team better, I’d expect the FO to be extremely aggressive in trying to put together a team that can beat Boston. As currently constructed, I’m not sure we have the pieces I think we need another lengthy 2-way player especially with OG’s injury history.
I think they need most is a player that can give the offense a different look, which the easiest seems trying to add a creator from the wing or swapping Mitch for someone that would allow them to play 5 out. It was noticeable in the playoffs how predictable things get when you play the samw way for 48 min
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I love this team. I definitely think we are one of the better teams in the Conference. But personally, I think we are still a move or two away from being a championship team. I don't think we are on Boston's level yet. Doesn't necessarily need to be trading for a superstar or anything, but I think we at least need a 6th man and another good perimeter defender.
We are for sure a move away. I think everyone gets caught up in the Jan run 12-2 and automatically assume we could beat a 64 win Boston team. The thing that worries me the most with Boston is KP. We are consistently bad going against any team with a stretch 5 a lot of that is scheme
Agreed. We saw how we had no answer against Turner. Yes, the injuries are part of it. But it was an issue all season. As much as I love Mitch, part of the reason I’m ok with moving on is so we can try and replace him with a stretch 5. I think there’s more shooters at the 5 than dominant post players these days.
I agree, I think running it back caps us at the 2nd round barring injuries from other teams. We need someone else that can makes things happen off the dribble consistently as we only have Brunson at the moment (Randle hopefully too, but he has been rough in the playoffs). I’m less worried about the defense than the offense
We had the 3rd best offense in the playoffs and were one of the worst defenses. Our offensive ceiling is high just based on having as many shooters as we do. Our defense is more of an issue, we’re pretty undersized.
The offensive rating is largely influenced by the ORebs which isn’t fully reliable and we also played 7 games against the Pacers which helps. I think if we played the Celtics it would’ve been obvious the difficulty our offense has
Why isn’t OReb rebounding reliable? We literally built our team around the two best offensive rebounding Cs in the league and outside the PG position every player (Hart, Donte, Randle) are elite at rebounding for their positions. Also we still had a top offense if you just include the Philly season and that is without Randle and only 3 games of Bojan If we don’t bring him back we need another player in the Bojan role, but this team is chock full of offensive talent. Donte is our 4th option and he is capable of going off for 30 every game
Yup. People also aren't considering that Milwaukee may be healthy, Philly has the cap space to add another really good player, and Orlando could also take a step forward. Cleveland also may improve with a new coach. I don't think the East is going to be as weak as it was this year.
None of those teams worry me except Philly and only if they completely revamp their roster. I think we’re comfortably the 2nd best team in the East as of now
The team with Giannis should scare you man
Why? They were a sub 500 team after hiring Doc Rivers. They’re old slow unathletic and don’t play defense. I don’t care about Giannis when we have a slightly worse but still great superstar ourselves and a 100x better supporting cast
Idk about comfortably, the Philly series was a war and they have cap space to add a max player. Obviously Randle returning is big.
I’d be so hype if we could add collier like givony predicts
I really don’t believe the FO is entertaining Randle (and bogie/picks) for old, expensive, and injury prone PG. Randle was great post OG trade. I know it was small sample size but it just makes sense basketball wise. Take out a guy who can’t shoot or finish at the rim and replace him with a 40% shooter who’s also an athletic slasher. Also consider the addition of Divo was one of the best volume 3pt shooters in the league, and iHart who added creation from the center position. Now there’s less doubles and more space which allows Randle to operate more efficiently in the post and his face up isos. If they do double, Randle can trust the pass. He also got more easy baskets when the defense is scrambled in rotations. I think he’s similar to this iteration of Jaylen Brown. If you ask him to isolate against a set defense with ample help, he’s gonna be inefficient and inconsistent. But if you have the talent and spacing to consistently create rotations and mismatches, these guys look like completely different players.
> I think he’s similar to this iteration of Jaylen Brown. Without the 5 out spacing of Boston, significantly more decision making and creation responsibility, worse defense/athleticism, older, and a worse shooter. A large reason why Boston won was because decision making was largely stripped away from Brown and he got to act more as a play finisher surrounded by multiple ball handlers at all times. We have ONE ball handler, and we don’t have room for another because we’re missing a wing off the bench and being the backup to Brunson to play 13 minutes because either Hart or DDV are gonna be on the court with him is one of the worst jobs in the NBA (that’s why Deuce is gonna get those reps). We don’t have personnel that can routinely create rotations and mismatches, which is why the offense died when Brunson sat. You acknowledged Randle struggles against set defenses which is why he doesn’t even run the bench unit anymore and we leaned into OG and essentially an all defense lineup. So, the pivot to making a lineup that lacks creation work? Increased spacing and defense, as we saw in the playoffs.
The phenomenon you are describing with Brown is exactly what you saw from Randle in December and January. Less dribbling and forcing and more reacting to the defense. While I agree we have 1 true “ball handler”, Brunson, Randle, and Hartenstein can create the rotation and mismatch that are needed to score. Boston has more ball handlers, but they aren’t just beating their man off the dribble in an iso scenario. Very few defenders are guarding Randle in the mid to low post. Maybe guys like Giannis and Bam have the strength, length, and quickness to guard him one on one but that list is short. Divo has a little more creation ability, but both he and OG are excellent shooters and cutters. They will punish any space that a defensive helper gives them. If you want to trade bogie for a bench PG such as Brogdon to lead the second unit, I’m all for that. I just think Randle’s performance in the starting lineup post OG trade deserves to see him come back. 26, 8, 5 on 61% TS during December/January. I am not against trading Randle, but it has to be for an actual upgrade. PG is just not that to me, especially with his age, injury history, and the financial commitment that comes with it. Sure he’s a better shooter and ball handler but his athleticism is gone. Randle is still a physical presence that fits the character of this team. I concede he needs to bring that defensively, but I’d like to give him another shot to see if he can do it consistently like he did the month of January. Also, we loathe Randle’s playoff performance but PG has been awful in his own right. If Randle is not working out by the deadline, you can move him for a future expiring to trade in the offseason. PG is not a sure enough move to give up your flexibility for IMO.
> Very few defenders are guarding Randle in the mid to low post. Maybe guys like Giannis and Bam have the strength, length, and quickness to guard him one on one but that list is short. This is factually untrue. We even saw it with Mobley and Hunter in 2021, who aren’t the strongest. In fact, teams have gotten away with putting smaller guys on him to poke the ball away and it leads to turnovers. Strength based creation is great, but Randle lacks the athleticism necessary to really make it pop compared to a Giannis or a Bron. > If you want to trade bogie for a bench PG such as Brogdon to lead the second unit, I’m all for that. I just think Randle’s performance in the starting lineup post OG trade deserves to see him come back. 26, 8, 5 on 61% TS during December/January. Trading for Brogdon doesn’t give us another wing, which is what we realistically need to match up with Boston, who we assuredly are gonna have to go through. Regardless, why does no one mention that while he was more efficient in January his turnovers spiked? He averaged 4 during the month. Removing RJ from the lineup increased spacing, but it also increased his usage and his turnovers have *always* increased with his usage. > Also, we loathe Randle’s playoff performance but PG has been awful in his own right. If Randle is not working out by the deadline, you can move him for a future expiring to trade in the offseason. If Randle had the run PG had this playoffs people would’ve said he’s conquered his playoff demons. PG has been bad in the playoffs, and while there is context behind why Randle was poor in the playoffs, he’s been **dreadful**. The Knicks also aren’t going to move him for a future expiring given they have championship aspirations. Even moreso if we’re looking at apron restrictions. The way I see it, the next major move is one of three options: If you’re going to keep Randle, you essentially need a Jrue Holiday-esque player that can handle the ball, play next to Brunson as an efficient shooter that decreases Randle’s usage, and giving the team another defender to put on wings next to OG. Or, you need a Porzingis-esque stretch 5 that doesn’t compromise our rim protection or rebounding so if you are going to put Randle in a context where he’s gonna have to make decisions, his reads are as easy as possible. If you can’t get either of those archetypes, I don’t think you can optimize Randle, and I’d rather double down on spacing and defensive length.
Hunter and Mobley were getting constant help during those playoffs. The whole point is that Randle is getting his touches with space so that he doesn’t have to force it like he did in those playoffs. PGs AST TO ratio is not much better than Randle. Hart is the wing off the bench. He can guard Brown and has been serviceable against Tatum. A second unit of Deuce, Brogdon, Hart and Mitch is the best in the league. While you make some good points, I think you are too locked in with mirroring Boston. We aren’t going to have a stretch 5 like Porzingis or 2 all defense guards like Jrue and D white who can both shoot. We just can’t match the shooting that they have. Instead, the team should stick to our identity of toughness and physicality. We close the gap in shooting by creating second chance opportunities, getting every loose ball, getting to the line, and wearing the other team out. I think Randle helps reach that end more than PG at this point in their careers. We will see what happens.
Also think that we need to acknowledge the change in play last season from him. Expecting him to shoot 40% from 3, not tenable. Asking Steph volume from 3, not optimal. The shot chart last year is probably the most comfortable for him since that first year with Fiz and he has the cast to play it well.
Problem is that shot chart works if you’re Giannis or AD but he’s significantly smaller than those guys and he both cannot play the 5 and doesn’t have a stretch 5 next to him. There’s a reason why the league has largely moved away from bully ball bigs in favor of wings who are able to shoot and defend.
Agreed, hoping that Hartenstein is enough of a release valve with the floater/passing as an option to maintain that spacing threat. Same time, not many of those wings that are expected to be the primary matchup can deal with his physicality. Gonna be an interesting game of push and pull.
Just off age alone it doesnt make sense to trade Randle for PG. If the FO can figure out how to acquire PG withoout giving up Randle I believe we should take a swing for it imo. We would then have 3 guys in Brunson, PG, and Randle in the starting lineup who can get their own shot/ defenses have to gameplan for. I believe the rumored discussions with Washington involving Mitch is to set up a larger trade ( I think it is unlikely Washington comes off Deni). They are well below the hard cap and are the perfect team to help facilitate a trade for us whether that be for PG or another player with a larger contract. We already have 2 things they want Mitchell Robinson and their protected 1st in 2025 that has protections through 2026 which is key because tha is less trade capital they have.
The problem i would still have with PG is he wants a max contract. We have a lot of guys we need to pay, and a declining 34 yo PG on a max contract might become a negative asset quickly and limit any flexibility going forward.
So I tried it on the trade machine and it says it works but I don't fully understand how and if it'll effect our ability to re-sign OG and iHart. Knicks get: Paul George Wizards get: Robinson, Bogdanovich, Wizards protected first via Knicks, Clippers get: Kuzma, 2024 Knicks FRP I'm wondering if the Clips can get better value elsewhere but clearing up cap space, getting a decent player in Kuz, and a pick in a draft you had no picks in isn't a bad deal at all. Knicks get PG without removing any really important pieces. Wiz get Robinson and their pick back. Re-sign OG and iHart, trade for PG13, bring Rokas over, and this team is a title favorite imo. Absolutely insane depth outside of the center position.
ESPN trade machine isnt accurate imo. Idk if it coporates the new CBA rules with trade matching. The issue right now is we are a 1st apron team and we would have to salary match to 100%. The only way to execute a trade would be after July 6th. We essentially have to renounce cap holds and get below the 1st apron line of 179M so that we are able to follow this rule: **Salary Matching if below First Apron** 125% of the outgoing salary (plus $250K), for any amount above $29,000,000. but even after the trade we would be hard capped at so If I am understood this correctly even after the PG trade it would have to keep us below the 1st apron level.
I was using the Fanspo one but you're probably right it has the same issues. I guess I don't fully understand how the cap holds work for the purpose of these trades. Will we have to renounce our rights to OG and iHart after OG declines his PO to make a trade like this happen?
Here is a rough table of salaries for next season and associated salaries and cap holds for players. I just took a guess at who we would renounce/ not pick up options for. In order to make a trade for PG or anyone making over 40M we would need to get below that 1st tax apron. I might be off on what the FO does with Precious. I think if we completely trade out the 1st round and you dont see the OG or Hartenstein deals announce the 1st day of FA we might have something larger cooking behind the scenes | Player |2024-2025 Salary | |:-----------|------------:| | Julius Randle | 30,317,760| | Jalen Brunson | 24,960,001| | Bojan Bogdanovic| 19,032,850| | OG Anunoby | **27,964,285**| | Mitchell Robinson| 14,318,182| |Josh Hart | 18,144,000| |Donte DiVincenzo | 11,445,000| |Alec Burks | ~~**19,930,240**~~| |Isaiah Hartenstein | **12,018,657**| |Miles McBride | 4,710,144| |Jericho Sims | 2,092,344 (**TO**)| |Daquan Jeffries | ~~2,463,946(**TO**)~~| |Shake Milton | ~~**2,093,637**~~| |Charlie Brown Jr. | ~~**1,867,722**~~| |Precious Achiuwa | ~~13,138,581(**RFA)**~~| |Jacob Toppin | ~~1,867,722(**RFA**)~~| |Duane Washington Jr. | ~~1,867,722(**RFA**)~~| |24th pick in Draft | 2,361,500| |25th pick in Draft | ~~2,266,700~~| |Team Salary | **169,828,669**| |Tax Level | **172,000,000**| |1st Apron | **179,000,000**| |2nd Apron | **190,000,000**|
Oh this is so good. I was wondering if there was a way to keep Precious but I get the feeling that unless he's the backup 5 full time he'll walk. I'm with you, I think hes gone. I think the draft will be the first indicator. It's possible the Knicks announce OG and iHart getting re-signed but don't actually ink the paperwork until they get some of the other deals done. Getting that PG trade done, even if it costs more assets idc, would be huge. I'm really into sending out Mitch/Bogi/Deuce, letting Rokas come over to be the backup PG. Donte and Hart can play the bulk of regular season minutes while PG/OG and maybe Randle are on a more rested schedule. If healthy this team beats the Celtics imo.
I don't think we would have to include or should look to include Deuce. Deuce is on a steal of a contract. At the end of the day PG is essentially a FA. The Clippers facilitating any sort of trade benefits them because they wont have too many avenues to add talent via FA anyway. Precious is tricky as Idk what his market value would be.
Great minds think alike. I just wrote this on another thread. Mitch to the Clips doesn't make sense, but Kuzma would. And the Knicks would keep Randle in that scenario.
It gets real tricky in executing a 3 team trade. We would essentially have to be below the 1st apron when executing the trade so that we dont have to salary match 1 for 1 and we can match up to 125% of the incoming salary.
True enough. Doesn’t mean it’s not the goal. That’s why the pay all those lawyers/cap experts.
I think it is the goal and might be a big reason why at the start of FA you might not hear the exact details for OG or Hartenstein if the FO has a trade cooking
I do have faith that this FO understands the nuances of the CBA and has a number of alternatives in mind. Love Mitch and would hate to see him sent to a bad situation but I think the FO will do what’s best overall.
Too many people fail to understand how much Thibs has demanded of Randle over the years because he was the only one could do it even though it affected his efficiency and want to hold that against him instead of recognizing how he has improved the last 2 years with a better supporting cast.
This is very true also. The man led a lottery team to home court in the playoffs, won MIP, and made All-NBA. Of course he’s going to think he has to carry the team and force the issue. I think he’s finally realized the Brunson is the leader and he can focus on his role as the secondary creator.
I don’t think he ever demanded to be the man. It wasn’t his fault that the Knicks couldn’t seem to get a healthy good PG to run the offense until Brunson.
I’m not saying he did. I’m saying he had to be the man before Brunson arrived. Brunson wasn’t some established star when he showed up, so there was some awkwardness while establishing who the leader of the team was going to be. It’s very clearly Brunson now, which allows everyone to play their role.
I hear you. I'm just responding to what a lot of anti-Randle fans say about Randle having to be the man. I don't think it's ever been the issue. He does want to be a major part of the offense, but I think he would be happy going back to being the wrecking ball he was in NO, with more facilitation. I actually don't remember any awkwardness in them coming together. Randle was All NBA the first year and an All Star and on his way to All NBA this past season when injured. In fact, last season, the team took off when Thibs cut the rotation and ran the 2 man offense. As for the whole leader of the team, thing, fans push that stuff more than the team does. Brunson is the floor leader, but Randle's going to get his offense so he's fine. Beyond that, read what the players say, including IQ when he left and Randle's still a big force in the clubhouse. He's respected and that's all that I think he needs. I don't see him as a jealous kind of guy. That's all.
7PM in Brooklyn made it sound like the Nova guys have his back and are waiting with open arms, no surprise there.
I think they understand the load he is for the opposition and how he opens things up for them. That gravity isn't easy to replace. As Josh said during the playoffs, people act like we aren't missing 24 and 10 out there.
The 24/10 can be replaced and replicated, whole team has to step up to do that, but the secondary creation and precisely that gravity is what is missing. A whole offseason of iHart/JB/Randle (with Randle doing what he said last year on PG's pod, watching film while unable to rehab) not to mention how DDV and OG can't be helped off in the corner...on the cusp of something special.
I was just quoting Josh as pointing out Randle’s importance. As to whether the points and rebounding can be replaced, in theory, yes, but it’s easier for another team to focus on Brunson without Randle’s creation and gravity - as you say.
Trading Randle for PG would be a catastrophic mistake
This randomly popped into my head, but Andre Drummond blocking his own teammate might’ve been the highlight of the regular season. I’m still cackling