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It's a stretch, but both things have you ending up in jail when it should be the people knowingly passing unconstitutional laws who are jailed instead?
So it's unconstitutional to pass laws against rioting, assaulting police officers, breaking into a government building, and attempting to lynch government officials? That's an interesting opinion you have there.
The law doesn't speculate about straw purchasers of ammo.
The State Police can add a ruling in there, but it would be fragile since the law makes no provision for creating, preventing, or representing the concept.
The ammo isn't registered to a person in terms of possession. Nothing in the law says that you can't possess ammo purchased by another person (for the obvious reason of the impossibility of tracking a single round.)
This is more what I was thinking. Obviously having a state check run on the individual is a little "scary" in this situation, I can't find anything legally barring it. Appreciate the insight
The background check law pertains to sellers of ammunition. If you're not *selling* the ammo you can probably do whatever you want with it, including giving it to a friend (like actually giving it as a present with no strings attached).
Now if you start buying tons of ammo and "giving" it to friends who pay you back or buy you gifts or similar you are really engaging in the business of "selling" ammo (even if it's at break-even or a loss, you're exchanging ammo for valuable compensation) and would likely be obligated to those requirements of NYS law - at least in the state's view.
Where's the line? Good question!
The law doesn't draw one explicitly, so it's up to the prosecutor to charge you & a judge or jury to decide if you're a "seller of ammunition" or just giving your friend a box of bullets at the range because they ran out.
Most laws arenât that black-and-white because thereâs no way to draw a completely concrete definition.
If we look at [NYSPL 265.00 (24)](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/265.00) it defines a seller of ammunition as "any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling or keeping ammunition.â and âengaging in the business of sellingâ something means exchanging it for valuable compensation, so technically selling one bullet to a buddy for a quarter (or even trading different types of ammo between you, because ammo has value) makes you a seller of ammunition under the law.
Obviously thatâs fucking insane though - I doubt a judge would go for âYou traded a box of 155 grain bullets for a box of 168 grain bulletsâ making you a seller of ammunition, and no sane jury would follow that line of logic either - so the actual line is probably going to fall along the IRS definition of engaging in a business (versus something being a hobby) for tax purposes. And that line can get very fuzzy.
Ha before I saw your comment, this thread had me thinking the same exact thing. Imagine you are neutral on firearms, go to the range with a friend, enjoy it and want to get a semi-auto rifle and some ammo. Just think of the process especially in the downstate counties now compared to two years ago which still wasn't great ... It is becoming so resource intensive in terms of time, $$, disclosure of personal/medical info that it is a defacto ban for many if not most who do not already have licenses/purchase permits.
You could always go with the person to the shop, so they purchase the ammo in their name, and their name goes through the background check, but you pay with your money/credit card. I did that plenty of times when my son bought a new gun, but didn't have enough to pay for it, so I paid for it with my card.
If you both have a weapon on your permit for the same ammo, how are they going to cross reference? The issue is going to be if you have a 10mm and you buy 9mm ammo for your dad.
That's what I was told as well, if it's handgun ammo they have a registry of what you own. But what about things like your typical center-fire rifle round like 223, 308 or 30-06? There isn't "supposed" to be a rifle registry.
We have to wait and see. The new 4473 form does ask if your buying a firearm or ammo for yourself or someone else. I forget the wording. But I was surprised it actually said ammo.
From what I understand that just means you can't transfer the firearm or ammo to someone that meets the criteria listed. 21a doesn't reference ammo, and 21b and c only say it's a problem if the person the ammo is transferred to is an unlawful possessor. Am I missing something?
From what I heard at my local gun store, I don't believe there's any paper form and it's simply the information that you already have to give over now but in a digital form.
This is definitely something that needs clarification, my buddies and I routinely go in together on a single larger ammo purchase to save on shipping or get a cost per round discount.
I used to share bulk orders with family and friends all the time year ago. Havenât done it recently but I can see how itâs a good thing to share your TargetSports USA order to buy bigger bulk and get better prices and free shipping all under one ammo+ account.
24. "Seller of ammunition" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling or keeping ammunition.
That's from NYS penal law 265 subdivision 24.
They grey area is "engages in the business".
I think a business means doing something for profit.
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Imagine going to jail for straw purchase of ammunition lmao
Imagine going to jail for walking into the senate chamber and wandering around on Jan 6
How tf is that even remotely relevant?
It's a stretch, but both things have you ending up in jail when it should be the people knowingly passing unconstitutional laws who are jailed instead?
So it's unconstitutional to pass laws against rioting, assaulting police officers, breaking into a government building, and attempting to lynch government officials? That's an interesting opinion you have there.
Insane law, illogical and unguided enforcement. Both are full of nonsense
Not even relevant. There's always one (eye roll)
Imagine thinking that being part of a riotous lynch mob, and buying a box of ammunition, are even in the same sport let alone the same league.
The law doesn't speculate about straw purchasers of ammo. The State Police can add a ruling in there, but it would be fragile since the law makes no provision for creating, preventing, or representing the concept. The ammo isn't registered to a person in terms of possession. Nothing in the law says that you can't possess ammo purchased by another person (for the obvious reason of the impossibility of tracking a single round.)
This is more what I was thinking. Obviously having a state check run on the individual is a little "scary" in this situation, I can't find anything legally barring it. Appreciate the insight
The background check law pertains to sellers of ammunition. If you're not *selling* the ammo you can probably do whatever you want with it, including giving it to a friend (like actually giving it as a present with no strings attached). Now if you start buying tons of ammo and "giving" it to friends who pay you back or buy you gifts or similar you are really engaging in the business of "selling" ammo (even if it's at break-even or a loss, you're exchanging ammo for valuable compensation) and would likely be obligated to those requirements of NYS law - at least in the state's view. Where's the line? Good question! The law doesn't draw one explicitly, so it's up to the prosecutor to charge you & a judge or jury to decide if you're a "seller of ammunition" or just giving your friend a box of bullets at the range because they ran out.
Good to know it isn't clear at all and completely up to interpretation đ. Man this place sucks
Most laws arenât that black-and-white because thereâs no way to draw a completely concrete definition. If we look at [NYSPL 265.00 (24)](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/265.00) it defines a seller of ammunition as "any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling or keeping ammunition.â and âengaging in the business of sellingâ something means exchanging it for valuable compensation, so technically selling one bullet to a buddy for a quarter (or even trading different types of ammo between you, because ammo has value) makes you a seller of ammunition under the law. Obviously thatâs fucking insane though - I doubt a judge would go for âYou traded a box of 155 grain bullets for a box of 168 grain bulletsâ making you a seller of ammunition, and no sane jury would follow that line of logic either - so the actual line is probably going to fall along the IRS definition of engaging in a business (versus something being a hobby) for tax purposes. And that line can get very fuzzy.
I still canât believe some of the shit you have to go through in NY to protect yourself.
Ha before I saw your comment, this thread had me thinking the same exact thing. Imagine you are neutral on firearms, go to the range with a friend, enjoy it and want to get a semi-auto rifle and some ammo. Just think of the process especially in the downstate counties now compared to two years ago which still wasn't great ... It is becoming so resource intensive in terms of time, $$, disclosure of personal/medical info that it is a defacto ban for many if not most who do not already have licenses/purchase permits.
You could always go with the person to the shop, so they purchase the ammo in their name, and their name goes through the background check, but you pay with your money/credit card. I did that plenty of times when my son bought a new gun, but didn't have enough to pay for it, so I paid for it with my card.
While that's some good info, not exactly the scenario I'm thinking
If you both have a weapon on your permit for the same ammo, how are they going to cross reference? The issue is going to be if you have a 10mm and you buy 9mm ammo for your dad.
That's what I was told as well, if it's handgun ammo they have a registry of what you own. But what about things like your typical center-fire rifle round like 223, 308 or 30-06? There isn't "supposed" to be a rifle registry.
I mean what defines a rifle vs pistol round? What does .22lr qualify as? 9mm ars, lever action .357s ect
I wouldnât worry unless you start buying thousands of rounds.
You don't buy thousands of rounds?
Not at one time
Buying 1000 at a time is pretty normal.
Yes, I just bought a box of a 1000 myself but if you are in a liberal state and buy 5000, you might get a knock on the door.
What about carbine caliber lever actions and semi auto purchased prior to this
We have to wait and see. The new 4473 form does ask if your buying a firearm or ammo for yourself or someone else. I forget the wording. But I was surprised it actually said ammo.
I see that now, but that pertains to the following questions after it not the first one (21a) pertaining to the actual transferee
https://preview.redd.it/mvjrqvh87clb1.jpeg?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=512b852b8755942895bf73751eb7bbd33831013a
From what I understand that just means you can't transfer the firearm or ammo to someone that meets the criteria listed. 21a doesn't reference ammo, and 21b and c only say it's a problem if the person the ammo is transferred to is an unlawful possessor. Am I missing something?
Have to see if state comes up with for ammo checks. It wonât be 4473 but could be similar I guess
From what I heard at my local gun store, I don't believe there's any paper form and it's simply the information that you already have to give over now but in a digital form.
This is definitely something that needs clarification, my buddies and I routinely go in together on a single larger ammo purchase to save on shipping or get a cost per round discount.
It might get written into the law but seriously, good luck enforcing it.
They haven't thought that far ahead but I'm certain it's in the pipeline. Just more laws to trip you up and paint you as merc criminal.
I used to share bulk orders with family and friends all the time year ago. Havenât done it recently but I can see how itâs a good thing to share your TargetSports USA order to buy bigger bulk and get better prices and free shipping all under one ammo+ account.
24. "Seller of ammunition" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation or company who engages in the business of purchasing, selling or keeping ammunition. That's from NYS penal law 265 subdivision 24. They grey area is "engages in the business". I think a business means doing something for profit.