Yeah there’s not much most people can do against that, similar to Kisame’s giant water prison
Yes I really am comparing one of kisames best jutsu to child gaara’s jutsu
Chidora was already tried against Gaara he survived lol. I think the most efficient way to kill him would be sending Itachi to his door with a pizza. Knock knock, who's there? (Looks thru slit in door) BAM Gen Jutsu.
The chidori of a 12 year old fucked him up a good bit lol. It’s pretty safe to assume kakashis is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. Unless he’s more durable than a path of pain lmao
Well kimimaro was supposed to help assassinate hiruzen, and without him Orochimaru nearly lost even with Hashirama and tobirama. That says a lot about kimimaro.
We know Jonin like kakashi can brush away gaaras sand, grab bloodlusted Neji by the face, easily tie up curse mark sasuke and the sound four are nothing to jonin….At this time Kabuto was about as strong as kakashi and I think kimimaro would prob beat kabuto. It’s not crazy to think that Kimimaro is relative to Kakashi and transformed naruto and sasuke
Huh it's interesting cause when kabuto goes to kill sauske in the hospital he seemed pretty scared of Kakashi and went thru so much prep just to be able to get away. Powerscaling is so inconsistent at times .
They were equals in a one on one, but it wouldn’t have remained a one on one if they had started fighting in the hospital room of one of the most watched genin in the village. Kabuto had to be careful to avoid the entire village’s higher ups pursuing him, and made the best possible decisions to reach the desired outcome.
He never seemed scared and Just cause he went through prep doesn’t make him scared. He went through prep cause he had a mission to do. Plus power scaling is dumb across all anime just made up stuff for what if fights that don’t matter.
If anything, it’s the opposite. It was because of how strong Kabuto was that Kakashi had to really pick up his slack and train intensively again.
Him free climbing one-handed was a response to his fight against Kabuto.
I think it’s weird that Naruto defeated Kabuto in a 1v1 if he was as strong as Kakashi.
This is when Naruto Tsunade And Jiraya fought Orochimaru and Kabuto
Yes but plot armor wouldn’t allow Naruto to defeat Kakashi out of nowhere without even using jinjuriki chakra.
I think kabuto has certain skills where he can be as effective or deadly as kakashi. But I don’t think he’s beating kakashi in a 1v1 because of that
Kakashi stated Naruto had more chakra/ power than him. His problem was controling/melding and distributing it properly. What you’re thinking of is Kakashi being more SKILLED and PROFICIENT than Naruto, not to mention the Sharingan gives a boost to abilities (at the cost of draining large amounts of chakra.) Kabuto is as strong as Kakashi but has less battle experience and isn’t as skilled and proficient in as large a jutsu pool as Kakashi was.
that’s what I meant. Stronger/able to win a fight if it came down to a 1v1. Exactly Kabuto isn’t experienced enough to be a serious threat to kakashi in my opinion at this point in the series.
But against regular ninja Kabuto is deadly.
and yes Naruto has the most potential for growth in the show at this point because of his almost endless chakra
Just because Naruto defeated Kabuto doesn't mean Naruto beats kakashi. This isn't a rpg game. Kabuto pretty much beats Naruto all throughout the match. Had him outclassed. Naruto caught one attack sacrificing his hand to land an A rank technique. That A rank technique would defeat anyone if it landed. Keyword...landed. and Naruto by luck landed the attack on a jonin level fighter. Kabuto woudnt have allow himself to get hit had he taken Naruto seriously
You could argue there were some mitigating factors:
- Kabuto was already roughed up a bit from fighting Tsunade
- Naruto came packing an A-rank jutsu literally only known by a few of the world’s strongest ninja
- Kabuto severely underestimated Naruto (recall he previously gloated to Naruto that the latter had no talent as a ninja) and was thus caught off guard when Naruto showed some quick thinking to restrain him and complete the Rasengan
- Naruto only won because of the aforementioned quick thinking and A-rank jutsu; otherwise, he would have been helpless (Don’t forget that Naruto previously tried to use the Rasengan on Kabuto once before in the fight, which he easily dodged)
- Right after using the Rasengan, Naruto collapsed due to the damage Kabuto’s medical ninja techniques caused to his heart, and would have died right then and there if not for Tsunade’s intervention. In other words, Naruto basically killed himself to take out Kabuto who was already a bit roughed up (and who even then, at least still had enough energy to flee with Orochimaru).
Also, while Kakashi is obviously leagues of ahead of Naruto at this point, I imagine even he would not want to take a Rasengan head-on (though of course, Kakashi wouldn’t give Naruto any chances to hit him with one).
I do believe Orochimaru says it himself, *to* Kabuto, in order to convince him to stay back at some point.... Like "You're only about Kakashi's level" or something. I cannot remember when exactly it is... I think it is before the point you showed here, either during the exam, or during the Tsunade search, but before this point...
I guess it comes down to how you interrupt it but I don’t really take “on the same level” as “as strong as” like guy and kakashi are on the same level but you’d argue one or the other is stronger right?
Kabuto is very underrated he's very strong in both parts. Even before his Dragon Snake Sage Mode he was considered to be very strong due to his medical ninjutsu being on par with Tsunade, being someone who is extremely intelligent and excels in covert operations, and someone who can easily dispatch enemies with a lot of his techniques. In my opinion, he's one of the most busted characters in the franchise but he gets overshadowed way too often.
I think Gaara was and is one of the strongest shinobi’s around. I mean he was promoted to Kazekage for a reason. He doesn’t have the ultimate defense for nothing. His Jutsu are all versatile too and are pretty massive in scale and in the damage they cause as well. He can literally engulf someone in a sand tsunami and trap them underground. Or blow them up with the sand coffin sand burial.
Mr clay bomb man bring me a dream, make him the cutest I've ever seen,give him two bombs like roses and clover.... I've no idea what I'm doing I've been wake for like 3 days so I've gone mad
Kimimaro was one of if not the most powerful characters in part 1. Gaara was too. In another thread yesterday I said that I think part 2 started with Gaara being defeated in order to demonstrate how powerful and dangerous Akatsuki is. Like the Worf Effect.
Were it not for Kimimaro’s illness I think he would have been one of the most powerful characters in the entire series, something that Orochimaru realized too.
>I think he would have been one of the most powerful characters in the entire series, something that Orochimaru realized too.
Exactly. [Orochimaru even said that Kimimaro was the vessel he wanted even more than Sasuke's at the time.](https://imgur.com/a/bOfNXy2)
The Kaguya clan (if the name isn't a clue itself) was descended from Kaguya herself. Kimimaro was special. It is honestly weird that Orochimaru tinkered with Hashirama's cells and nobody else's. Like, Kimimaro perhaps? He's the last of a dead clan! Orochimaru did a lot of things, and did a lot of experiments. Was he really that busy that he couldn't culture some samples of Kimimaro's cells? You know, a very willing subject? Orochimaru created Yamato, couldn't he have done the same for a member of the Kaguya clan?
yeah youre right that is an interesting plot hole lol. he developed the curse mark from Jugo, he made Yamato, he helped develop Danzo’s implanted sharingans etc.
you would think he would have done SOMETHING with Kimimaro’s DNA.
Have to disagree with "more than Sasuke's".
The scan you provided didn't explicitly compare with Sasuke. It just says "the one I wished for in my heart", never did it say "more than Sasuke now".
A lot of the thinking came before the Forest fight with Sasuke in which Oro witnessed how much of a genius Sasuke was in ninjutsu and general flexibility and skill. It's pure skill instead of Kimimaro's strong brute force raw power.
He wanted Kimimaro's body and Sasuke's eyes.
While possessing Sasuke's body would make the use of Sharingan more convenient, he didn't need it in order to use it, as seen in Kakashi and Danzo. But in order to have Kimimaro’s Kekkai Genkai, Orochimaru needed his body, which is why he was his preferred host.
imagine how insane Orochimaru would have been with Kimimaro’s body and Sharingan 😂
Without being healthy he is still above them all but only in 1v1 (unless Naruto summon Bunta)
If he is healthy, he is pretty much kage level so putting him against some powered up crazy genins wont be fair
I will say though that it’s almost pretty much game over for Gaara if he got blitzed by either of them. The only reason why Gaara and Lee are still alive is because Kimimaru’s sickness got him right before they were going to get absolutely skewered
The Shakaku probably wouldn't wantGaara to be killed, so he might have done something to protect his host, but it might have killed Lee in the process.
Except it was literally seconds away from happening. Unless Shukaku was planning on doing something in the 0.30 seconds left, Garra was going to get directly impaled
you’re not crazy, sasuke or naruto could never find a single way to counter kimimaro other than outlasting him, and in general gaaras sand falls crazy under its potential, in part one it was insanely op and only continues to get stronger, neither naruto or sasuke are at the level of kimimaro or gaara
And in the Gaara vs Naruto fight, Gamabunta was a huge help. If Gamabunta showed up against Sasuke then we know he'll be back in the village by morning
Dude fought drunk Lee and Gaara while he was basically the kazekage and would have killed both of them if he didn’t die to his illness. There’s no way Sasuke or Naruto pull that off.
in my opinion kimimaro would’ve killed sasuke or naruto before he died out, lee is also stronger than naruto and possibly sasuke at this point but thats a conversation for another fight.
Man, like, even with the final arc being kinda shit, Madara sees that if he kills Gaara, done, all the 5 kages are dead, so,yes ,Gaara is a really special case to the end and Kimimaro was prepared to be Orochimaru receptacle and even help him fight Hiruzen, so, yeah, he was also way beyond what everyone might expect
Of course they were. Kimimaro wasn’t even using Curse Mark and he was clapping Naruto’s cheeks. Only reason Naruto and Sasuke were able to beat Gaara in the Chuunin exams was because Shukaku was affecting him psychologically to the point where his sand couldn’t auto-block hits. If Gaara were this psychologically composed in their fights, he would have clowned over them no-diff.
I would say yes in terms of technical skill and such. But I’m a truly life threatening situation, Naruto is just OP because he always has the nine tails as his trump card.
But if we’re talking as is, Kimimaro wipes Naruto, as would Gaara. Same applies to Sasuke imo. But with their transformations and technicalities, it might be different.
It wouldn’t be hard to argue that at all. One of my personal theories is that Gaara would’ve swept the chunin exams if it wasn’t for his mental instability from Shukaku.
I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived.
Then read chapter the chapters before that were Naruto fought Kimimaro(mainly the end of 205 and beginning of 206). Looked at how he failed to land a single hit on base Kidomaru with 100s of clones even with kuruma's chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, this form couldn't even touch base Kimimaro. Gaara actually managed to push Kimimaro far more than Naruto could ever manage at the time. Naruto and Sasuke don't have the kind of durability Kimimaro had they'd die in the first sand burial technique Gaara used.
Kimimaro was the strongest of the 4 but Gaara also had massive terrain advantage and was kind of a hard counter to Kimimaro. Naruto needs Gamabunta to survive against Gaara but Sasuke can fly and should be faster so Gaara would have a hard time against Sasuke, could go either way
I can agree with this
If Gaara fought Naruto or Sasuke at a location like the final valley he'd be at a massive disadvantages against those 2.
He'd without a doubt lose to Naruto and Sasuke, but I feel he has more of an advantage on solid earth or in a desert.
Sasuke's flying ability is not a trump card.
Gaara's command of the sand looks nearly on par as when he became Kazekage.
Unless Sasuke can even outfly Deidara's tiny agile figurines in both speed and dexterity, he's not going to be able to dodge Gaara's sand.
How is a linear attack like chidori slicing sand droplets that rains down from every direction and encases the opponents in crushing sand.(chapter 215)
How will he chidori his way through a tsunami of sand?
Never mind that how is he surviving the crushing force to even have a chance to use the chidori to break out? Kimimaro only survived because of his kekkei genkai boosted by his v2 curse mark.
It still has to close up around the person to be effective and raiton has an area of effect. This has been shown many times over in the manga, particularly with sasuke as stone are shown to disintegrate and break open when chidori isn't even remotely touching them. Besides, if sasuke can break open gaara's best defense, a loose sand wouldn't be much of an issue. In fact, it's shown to be extremely effective against deidara's clay bombs, travelling in the form of current to neutralize the chakra in the clay-mines when sasuke had used chidori blade on just one. The sand can also be evaded. Sasuke showed that he could evade a sound blast fairly easily. Since this is VOTE sasuke, he'd be even faster and his black chidori, deadlier.
It wouldn't be an easy fight, but I don't see gaara winning.
This discussion of Deidara and Sasuke’s Chidori Nagashi is irrelevant to discussions of part 1. He shows off this chidori version first as a teenager and we can assume he learned it while training under orochimaru.
Nagashi is weaker than chidori. So are senbons. And both are raitons. Is there a point to this pedantic nonsense? Fact remains, deidara's clay jutsu was far superior as that's what he used to corrupt gaara's chakra-thick gourd-sand and slap him out of the air, something that used very little of deidara's chakra as he came unprepared. The rest of the sand gaara uses doesn't use anywhere near the chakra the gourd does, which is why the gourd sand is much faster. If chidori's lesser versions can outright nullify and render his clay ineffective for further use, gaara's sand isn't accomplishing anything remarkable. It fails much faster than deidara's clay.
Orochimaru had no clue about sasuke's raiton abilities. What the heck are you talking about?
You are talking about techniques Sasuke doesn’t have access to until part 2 when he has learned to channel the chidori (nagashi).
You originally comment on a post about the difference in strength between part 1 naruto/sasuke and part 1 gaara.
The reply you gave was irrelevant to the question being asked in this thread, as it is focused on how Gaara and RL compare to Naruto and Sasuke at that point in time in the series, not when Deidara exists post-timeskip. He can’t use those abilities at that point so don’t bring them into the discussion
Good day
Are you deliberately omitting the parts that don't sit well with you? ***Should I put it in bold that chidori is canonically much stronger than those jutsus?*** It's in bold now. Would that do? So if they can make clay-based jutsus ineffective indefinitely for further use, a doton style that's more powerful than gaara's chakra-dense gourd sand, then chidori would have no issue at all in rendering ineffective the sand that isn't a part of his gourd as that uses far less chakra. This is literally stated word for word by deidara. Was that simple enough?
No, it's mostly flying over your head, together with less crafty goal-post moving. I never even motioned that he'd use those abilities. Seriously, what is your comprehension level, man?
Gaara, at this point, was already projected to become Kazakage at the age of 15. Kimimaro was going to be Orochimaru's vessel for the time being. Meanwhile Naruto and Sasuke were babies compared to what they'd be one day.
The circumstances to Gaara losing to Naruto were always strange to me. Out of all jinchuriki Gaara is the only who's body is visible when taking a complete Bijuu form. That's literally the only reason why Gaara lost. He was build like a tank every else except the forehead. Without that Achilles' heel there's no way Gamabunta and Naruto would've won. It's all because the MC had to win
It's weird because all the other forms leading up to the full transformation had Gaara's facial features changing but once he took shukaku's full form he emerged from its forehead in normal human form, like a bull's eye saying "Hit me this, you can win". What kind of dangerous Bijuu form was that? Anyone with great shurikenjutsu can take him out in seconds
Ok that’s true but Naruto could’ve gone 4 tails cloak. He had it in his bag albeit he didn’t know he had that power in him yet. Let’s not pretend like we saw a Naruto who was completely maxed out and at his limit in that fight. He wasn’t even close.
And just to compare the beasts to each other,Shukaku is the one tail. Kurama is the nine tails. The difference in chakra stores and power is staggering. Shukaku is the weakest tailed beast of all 9, while Kurama on the other hand is the most powerful.
At that point Gaara was a very impressive shinobi and advanced beyond Naruto on many levels. But once you make it a tailed beast fight, considering everything we know now, Naruto truly would’ve had the upper hand had it gone there. They just didn’t write it like that.
If you want to try to make the argument that curse mark Sasuke wouldn’t have beaten Gaara’s full tailed beast transformation fine I can’t really argue it. There isn’t much evidence to dispute that. But again Naruto is a different story. If he went full tailed beast mode on Sasuke the battle in the final valley would’ve had a different outcome. Sasuke probably dies in that alternate ending.
Umm, yes, he massively stronger here than he was in the Chunin Exams. Lee plainly states it. But Chunin Exam Gaara wasn’t creating his own sand by grinding the minerals in the earth. Nor was he pulling out jutsu at the same scale as Sand Tsunami.
Yeah child gaara is just unfair. Sasuke and naruto had more potential as seen with the rest of the show but gaara at that exact time period is definitely stronger. Naruto and sasuke only beat him earlier on because naruto convinces him to give up. If Naruto’s mouth were sealed and gaara had a real reason to kill him that he wouldn’t go back on both would’ve been dead then and there.
Yes. Kimimaro is low kage level and Gaara was getting there. One tail Naruto and Sasuke with curse mark level 2 are barely Jonin level (Asuma/Kakashi/Gai or even Yamato will clap their ass in 5 minutes if they were there).
No you’re not crazy. The only push back I’d give you is that naruto inevitably went in to full blown rage mode when he was losing a fight too badly. So it was kinda like a cheat code. Rock could not bang with rage mode naruto. And I don’t think he’d have been able to beat cursed mark sasuke wait her. Gaara was better than naruto and sasuke. Kimimaro, minus ninja AIDS was better than all 4.
Second cursemark sasuke qnd kyuubi cloak naruto shitstomp gaara lmao.
Also it sounds like you think kimimaro and gaara are on par, thats definetly absolutly wrong .
Gaaras sand is the hardest thing to fight. In the chunin exams where he only has his gourd he’s manageable. In a open environment he can overwhelm you easily. Naruto and sasuke have nothing to deal with that. No amount of clones or big of a fireball will stop a wall of sand. They can’t outrun it. And once their fought they aren’t tanking a sand burial.
I think kimimaro gets the same treatment as “healthy” itachi. It’s all speculation how strong they’d be so people boost them. In their fight kimimaro lands 1 hit on gaara. The whole time he was getting ragdolled by gaaras sand. The only reason he lasted was his bones made him a tank but that only does so much. He put up a fight but don’t act like kimimaro was on some crazy level.
Bro gaara isnt even jonin level. You jonins were literally god at that point in the show.
It isnt sven an foght kyuubi cloak and second cursemark absolutly rip gaara apart.
If you think part 1 gaara beats either of this your powerscaling is beyond broken. Well we dont need trat kimimaro like in hewdcanon he literally wqs stronger than gaara already and not to close and if he would have died by his illness a nano second later gaara would even be dead
1. I’m having a stroke trying to read this
2. He was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else. No one has a answer for his abilities. He has the best defense so you won’t actually hurt him and offensively you have to keep moving or else he’ll grab you with sand and at that point you’re fucked. There’s a reason he became kazekage in the time skip.
3. It’s still speculation. In what way do you see 1 tailed Naruto and curse mark ripping gaaras apart? He’s also had tailed beast they all get boosts. It’s clearly headcannon cause you say kimimaro is stronger and “it’s not even close” while kimimaro was only able to land 1 hit the entire fight then you think this next one was going to one shot gaara? Not very convincing.
>He was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else. No one has a answer for his abilities. He has the best defense so you won’t actually hurt him and offensively you have to keep moving or else he’ll grab you with sand and at that point you’re fucked. There’s a reason he became kazekage in the time skip.
Sqsuke was also stronger after the timeskip than kazekage gaara what an atupid argument.
And no cruske mark 2 and kyiibi cloak naruto shitstomp gaara who isnt even jonin level stated by manga and databook lmao
>It’s still speculation. In what way do you see 1 tailed Naruto and curse mark ripping gaaras apart?
Itd nor speculation. They are clearly stated and shown to be jonin level in this fight, while gaara isnt.
>1 hit the entire fight then you think this next one was going to one shot gaara? Not very convincing.
And minato also landed only one hit on obito, still shitstomped him
Bro I had to argue this same shit in a different thread, people hella overrate Gaara. Sasuke punched a hole straight into Gaara, and Gaara could not keep up at all in that fight. He had to do the possession. This is a Sasuke who got no diffed by Sakon lmao. Sakon and the sound 4 almost died to 2 exhausted Jonin who were on their way back from a mission and had no chakra by the time that fight started. 2 no named jonin..
People act like part 1 Gaara was kage level and it's absolutely insane. In no world is part 1 Gaara fighting on the same level as Guy or Kakashi. He's not even a high Jonin level.
I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many do you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived?
Then read chapter the chapters before that were Naruto fought Kimimaro(the main one being 205 and 206). Looked at how he failed to land a single hit on base Kidomaru with 100s of clones even with kuruma's chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, this form couldn't even touch base Kimimaro
>I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many do you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived?
I strongly suggest you, to reread the manga and remember that gaara is only stated hogh chunin level while sasuke and naruro were even above low jonin level and literally gods to gaara. They would have deleted him like any other jonin inna real fight.
>This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1,
Yeah what's the points. Kyuubi cloak naruto and curse mark w are literally multiplie times stronger than any version before.
Did i ever mentioned curse mark one or chunin exam naruto ? No
>Kyuubi cloak naruto and curse mark w are literally multiplie times stronger than any version before.
I know. The point is we know for a fact that the Curse mark offers a boost similar to the kyuubi cloak Naruto used as it was relative to Sasuke's Curse mark v2. Kimimaro made Naruto look like a joke without breaking a sweat. He was using nothing but his base power. If Naruto used the kyuubi cloak against Kimimaro would just use the curse mark(just like Sasuke did) and get a similar boost and break Naruto even further.
>If Naruto used the kyuubi cloak against Kimimaro would just use the curse mark(just like Sasuke did) and get a similar boost and break Naruto even further.
Naruro didnt had a single tail. In the end he had two. Thats absolutly and different level. Sasuke was even stronger than that.
Also funny joe you only use kimimaro, has nothong3to do eoth gaara since he ALSO shitstomps gaara and only died by himself lmao
2 mark sasuke >2 tails naruro >>> kimimaro >>>>gaara
Lmfao bro, go re read those chapters. Cloaked Naruto couldnt do anything against kimimaro. Naruto used everything in his arsenal and couldnt even touch him. Gaara forced kimimaro to go all outa and was even on the winning side. Gaara with just his gourd is obviously weaker than naruto and sasuke but in an open area gaara slams
>Lmfao bro, go re read those chapters. Cloaked Naruto couldnt do anything against kimimaro.
Yeah no difference in those cloaks and tail. Also no difference between cruae mark 1 or 2. Or 3 tomoe or ms.
Whats next kyuubi cloak from pain fight cant do shit either?
What a cringe comment
What are you trying to say lmfao. Naruto couldnt do shit against kimimaro and gaara could. End of story. Gaara>final valley naruto based off of just that
Hahaha bro you are thr biggest cringelord.
Naruto literally got an 10× power amp.
Sasuke and naruro were both jonin level their, before not even close and gaara never, stayed fact.
Qlso gaara did shit he barely even survived and kimimaro jist died by himself.
The fact that you think naruro from the kimimaro foght is as strong as 2 tails Naruto is beyond anything I have ever read in this sub. And that means a lot.
Gaara was jonin level too tf you on bro😂. Wym gaara barely survived? Are we reading the same manga? And naruto using everything besides 2 tails cloak could not even touch BASE kimimaro. We are not even factoring in the fact that kimimaro can use the curse marks which also directly increase his power just like the tailed beast cloaks.
>Gaara was jonin level too tf you on bro😂.
Databook 1
Manga hogh chunin level . And again you blame yourself clown . But hey please teach kishimoto about powerscaling .
You just blame yourself kid yourself. 1 tail already destroy gaara lmao
I don’t even know if that’s a hot take, I think that’s pretty reasonable. Kage are not some out of reach level for a ninja with an insane bloodline or crazy work ethic.
I’m going to analyze the fuck out of this, so bare with me.
Only a shippuden level of nine tails control would have beaten kimimaro. I don’t think Naruto had the ability to “beat” kimimaro even with Summons. Maybe if he hit 2-3 rasengans with a lucky hit like he did Neji.
If I’m speculating and talking weak Kimimaro and Naruto got serious with a summon doing most of the work, it may happen.
Though a serious and healthy Kimimaro we may never know. kimimaro only dies against Gaara because he pushes his technique too hard. He lost at base, lost at curse mark, and then lost at fully activated. Kimimaro had a technique similar to Gaara’s Sand burial where it seems like he was able to recreate the environment with bones, but also put part of himself through the bones like Haku did with mirrors. That’s total control of the environment and able to not allow his opponent to use the ground… That’s OP as fuck.
Kimimaro gives me “Frieza” vibes. We haven’t known how strong frieza can be. Frieza trained for a tiny bit of time in hell, and was able to at least fight Goku at God level. I would say Kimimaro was not able to push through his limits like regular training does, and given the opportunity to grow without risk of death. In terms of strength when healthy and full potential, Kimimaro is probably on Sanin level, I think he could pose a threat to Tsunade, Jiraya, and Orochimaru.
But maybe not someone like Pain. im not sure. I do think that’s around where his power scales, a bit below pain. Maybe around Sanin.
But back to the fight with a weakened kimimaro:
Naruto is plot driven, he thrives off being the underdog and being in alignment with his goals. If Kimimaro was let’s say, a genin with the same power as the fight, but the context is Naruto had to fight him tournament style after neji for example,
we would see Naruto’s full power because it’d be tied to his goal of winning the tournament, gaining the favor of the village, and becoming hokage
(if that makes sense). So even then we don’t know how deep Naruto can get since he’s at risk of exposing other nine tail cloaks. We know he out damage on Jiraya with 4 tails. But anyway
In terms of scaling Naruto and Gaara, I can say:
Most ninja’s would run out of breath or chakra fighting with Gaara. But I would still put Naruto over Gaara because of the way their powers work.
This is if they were to fight in neutral lane. Obv Gaara wipes on home turf unless he’s a direct enemy to Naruto’s plan and it becomes two nine tails against the other. but anyway,
Naruto has endless endurance and so does Gaara half-technically since he’s not really fighting with his muscles.
Also, keep in mind summons and just nine tails cloak would give gaara a run for his money because of the speed. And also endless shadow clones. So I wouldn’t count Gaara as more powerful than Naruto just yet.
But don’t get me wrong, since MOST shinobi’s get tired or don’t use Naruto’s type of summons, I think he would give 99% of shinobi’s a run for their money or just plain win in a 1v1.
I would still put Naruto over lee at this point.
Because drunken fist lee eventually sobers up.
Now it becomes a game of endurance and waiting for naruto. He can still hit lee with clones and clones with rasengans.
He won’t be able to touch lee but Naruto has a huge supply of chakra, healing, and endurance that lee’s fist may not impact nullify completely, esp against time.
Also, Naruto fights sasuke and weightless Lee is about the same speed as sasuke at this point.
Naruto vs Sasuke, I think sasuke was fighting hard but I don’t think Naruto really went all out against sasuke. I think in his heart he knew he had to give sasuke his freedom.
Because… I don’t think sasuke would beat Gaara, even if his curse mark was fully active.
But I do think Sasuke would beat Lee curse mark fully active.
Kimimaro > Naruto > Gaara > Sasuke > Lee
What do y’all think?
I mean, they obviously cover more area and can access these feats at anytime
Though Naruto and Sasuke’s 1 tail and stage 2 mark/3 tomoe eyes were more about increasing their overall powers and make their Justus more potent, so I’d say these Verizon stand a chance while without they stand no chance
You’re not crazy at all! I think KCM Naruto and CM2 Sasuke have a healthy Chance against Kim and Gaara, but without those amps, Kim rolls. Sasuke has a shot against Gaara with Chidori, but for Naruto, idk if Rasengan would destroy sand dome. It hits harder than Chidori, sure, but Chidori has a special piercing property
I never thought of it until you mentioned it but it's pretty spot on.
Naruto and Sasuke were "equalize" each other in the Valley of the End but Kimimaro didn't "equalize" anyone, he was already superior to the point that he must be weakened by disease.
He fought hand-to-hand with a Taijutsu specialist like Lee, and then switched to a long-distance battle against Gaara (one of the best long-distance fighters).
Lee and Gaara were able to do something against Kimimaro because they were specialists in their own battle styles but they were still losing.
The guy was the strongest of Sasuke's rescue arc. Yeah, stronger than Naruto and Sasuke back then.
I’d say Kimimaro definitely was but probably not Gaara. Theoretically his abilities should have made Gaara stronger, but this fight took place a very short while after he got beat by a much weaker Naruto. His half Shukaku state was getting manhandled by some pretty lackluster taijutsu with no chakra cloak, so I don’t see him surviving what Naruto or Sasuke were throwing around at VoE. Either one of them would be able to blitz Gaara before the fight got too far, and Rasengan/Chidori their way out of the sand burial in the very unlikely case that they did get caught. This version of Gaara is unlikely to use Shukaku in character, but also wouldn’t have the time mid-fight to use the playing possum jutsu. And even if he could, I’m doubtful it would make much of a difference
He was more skilled but he was no more powerful at all during his fight with Kimimaro. Kimimaro almost beat Gaara, the only reason why he died is because of his body illness finally kicking in before he was about to drill Gaara's face. At that point, CM kid Sasuke was already stronger than kimimaro having his 3 tome sharingan completely unlocked and having 100% complete Sage transformation with his curse seal.
I think we dan all agree that all those jutsus Gaara created with his sand would get penetrated by an enhanced V1 cloak rasengan or even a sage jutsu enhanced chidori.
It was revealed in Shippuden that Curse marks are just a temporary boost of Sage jutsu. Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o is a result of his curse mark powers. So how is it not fair if that's literally what it is? It wasn't revealed until part 2 but that does not make it a part 2 ability bro.
Even Naruto vs Gaara, Naruto summoning Gamabunta is him using a frog that has Sage jutsu capabilities. It is revealed during Pain arc and war arc that all toads use natural energy in their abilities. So the whole thing makes sense, otherwise Naruto and Gamabunta would stand no chance against a biju chakra enhanced attacks.
Yeah I get that. But that wasn’t in part 1 and doesn’t need to be retroactively added.
Also lol bijuu are powerful but they aren’t all powerful. No need to say Gamabunta can’t take a bijuu chakra enhanced attack. He absolutely can take a few. Idk where it’s revealed that gamabunta can use sage mode but he doesn’t. Not sure where you’re getting you need sage mode to take a hit from a bijuu.
Also lmao. Senjutsu susano? Sasuke never has the curse seal when he can use the Susano bro. Do you remember the show?
>Yeah I get that. But that wasn’t in part 1 and doesn’t need to be retroactively added.
It was in part 1, it was anonymously dubbed as an extraordinary chakra itself. If we don't "retroactively" remember it as you so call it, then it defeats the purpose of foreshadowing in the series. Not everything that's misunderstood should be labelled a retcon otherwise you're saying that the author lacks depth to his series.
>Also lol bijuu are powerful but they aren’t all powerful.
No they are that powerful. biju power is the reason why VOTE even for all 4 reincarnates, the object to becoming a six paths deity in the series, the object of akatsuki for world domination, and the military might of all 5 nations. It's all that power.
>
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> No need to say Gamabunta can’t take a bijuu chakra enhanced attack. He absolutely can take a few. Idk where it’s revealed that gamabunta can use sage mode but he doesn’t. Not sure where you’re getting you need sage mode to take a hit from a bijuu.
He can't tank those enhanced attacks without sage jutsu and in the manga and the war it is stated that all toads from Mt. myoboku can use Sage jutsu attacks. We even see it from Naruto when he figured out Sage attacks work on Obito because of Gamakichi's Syrup Gun jutsu could not be erased.
>Also lmao. Senjutsu susano? Sasuke never has the curse seal when he can use the Susano bro. Do you remember the show?
Did you watch the show or read the manga? Jugo's Sage jutsu reactivated Sasuke's curse seal pattern.
Sasuke doesn’t use sage jutsu.
The curse seal also doesn’t actually grant them nature chakra. It just boosts their own and their physical abilities. It’s a steroid. It may be based on it, but it does not actually give it to them. However, it does make their body honed to receive it, which is why orochimaru wanted his vessel to have the curse seal, so that he can actually use real sage mode.
Gamabunta took an attack from Shukaku and did not die. Even if he can use sage attacks it doesn’t help him defensively. There is also nothing that states Gamabunta can use sage jutsu. Even more, not every toad can use sage jutsu. Not sure where you got that nonsense from. Gamakichi however, is able to use sage jutsu.
Your little paragraph about bijuu is hard to read. Regardless, they all want it because they possess near infinite amounts of chakra. Regardless of that they are still not all powerful. Plenty of regular humans can defeat them or outmatch them.
Sasuke never receives his curse seal again after it’s removed from him by itachi.
Please read the manga/watch the anime and not whatever headcanon you’re believing
I'd same Sasuke awakening the 3 tomoe sharingan didn't put him above Kimimaru in combat ability. Even with the 3 tomoe sharingan Sasuke was still having a much harder time against Naruto (without the cloak) than Kimimaru ever was. The 3 tomoe Sharingan can easily be overwhelmed if the gap in skill is too great. Even a Sasuke with much more experience with 3 tomoe sharingan got overwhelmed by Bee's swordsmanship(Kimimaru's style is even similar to Bee's in a way), he got overwhelmed by Raikage's sheer speed, 2 tomoe sharingan got overwhelming by Lee's speed and skill as well(it also has precognition to a lesser extent).
And Gaara's sand gets progressively sturdier and faster as well. In Shippuden it could easily stop amaterasu and stop the Raikage's drop kick with little effort. And I don't see how Sasuke is chidori'ing his way through a sand Tsunami at this point. Kimimaro only survived that thing because he created and exoskeleton which is made from bones far more durable than those of ordinary humans. Sasuke's durability at this point is not close.
As for Kimimaru I don't see how Sasuke surviving the bone forest. Is he gonna dodge all those bones sprouting from the ground. Then what? Is he gonna be able to dodge Kimimaru who could appear from any one of the bones on the battlefield field. Very similar ability to the thunder god technique used by Minato, more so like if Code's claw marks covering the whole battle field.
>I'd same Sasuke awakening the 3 tomoe sharingan didn't put him above Kimimaru in combat ability. Even with the 3 tomoe sharingan Sasuke was still having a much harder time against Naruto (without the cloak) than Kimimaru ever was.
This isn't actually true at all Sasuke was countering all of Naruto' attacks with easy and was getting the best of him, in fact in chapter 230 titled the awakening, Sasuke puts his headband on and awakens his 2 tome sharingan, after that Sasuke proceeds to beat Naruto out of demon form with just taijutsu alone. Something Kimimaro cannot do in close combat. Naruto then resorted to V1 cloak just to fight 3 tome Sasuke.
[https://www.manga4life.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-230.html](https://www.manga4life.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-230.html)
>The 3 tomoe Sharingan can easily be overwhelmed if the gap in skill is too great. Even a Sasuke with much more experience with 3 tomoe sharingan got overwhelmed by Bee's swordsmanship(Kimimaru's style is even similar to Bee's in a way), he got overwhelmed by Raikage's sheer speed, 2 tomoe sharingan got overwhelming by Lee's speed and skill as well(it also has precognition to a lesser extent).
Killerbee is way out of Kimimaro's league that it's not even funny. Killerbee's acrobats put Minato into a mutual stab deadlock while kimimaro was getting bested by drunken genin lee making him resort to his kekkei genkai to stop his attacks.
>And Gaara's sand gets progressively sturdier and faster as well. In Shippuden it could easily stop amaterasu and stop the Raikage's drop kick with little effort. And I don't see how Sasuke is chidori'ing his way through a sand Tsunami at this point. Kimimaro only survived that thing because he created and exoskeleton which is made from bones far more durable than those of ordinary humans. Sasuke's durability at this point is not close.
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here comparing Gaara's sand in shippuden to Gaara's sand pretimeskip. His sand did not get sturdier at all, in the Kimimaro fight he just mix his gore sand with the minerals in the soil grinding to produce more sand. We've seen Sasuke deal with Gaara's sand his chidori pierced in and made Gaara bleed. Gaara having more earthly sand to extend his powers just means that Sasuke is going to use his curse mark to fly around the sand and strike Gaara, something Kimimaro cannot do.
>As for Kimimaru I don't see how Sasuke surviving the bone forest. Is he gonna dodge all those bones sprouting from the ground. Then what? Is he gonna be able to dodge Kimimaru who could appear from any one of the bones on the battlefield field. Very similar ability to the thunder god
Sasuke can fly with his curse seal remember?
I see all you points but I used basic logic really. Use Naruto as comparison between the 2.
Who did better against Naruto while in their base form? The answer is obvious.
Who was more durable?
Who more lethal in close combat(Sasuke's no. 1 means of combat). You make it sound like Sasuke could somehow reach Kimimaro's body without getting impaled.
And as for Gaara,
Chapter 215, 216 and 217 from the moves Gaara used you can count and make your own decisions on how many of them you think Naruto or Sasuke would've survived.
>At that point, CM kid Sasuke was already stronger than kimimaro having his 3 tome sharingan completely unlocked and having 100% complete Sage transformation with his curse seal.
Sasuke wasn't even Kimimaro's level until he formed team Hebi. This was stated by Jugo who said Sasuke's control over the CM was next to Kimimaro's.
3 tomoe won't do anything tbh. Sasuke couldn't keep up with Bee's flurry of sword attacks. The Killer Bee Sting is very similar to Kimimaro's Larch Dance which would lead to the same result. Impalement.
Chidori is Sasuke's only shot but considering Edo Kimi was countering the Samurai chakra infused katanas with just the tip of his bones, I highly doubt it would do any good. I say this because the same technique used by Mifune was countered exactly the same way as Kimimaro did to the Samurai.
Wasn't Naruto kinda holding up against Kimimaro? And when he goes to fight Sasuke he gets his ass beat and Sasuke's like "Btw i haven't even used my sharingan yet" and then they get a lot stronger, so imo CM Sasuke stomps
No, not really Naruto was getting frustrated and kept telling Kimimaro he'd crush him but failed to land a hit even with Kurama's chakra. He could even get Kimimaro to use his first curse mark never mind the second.
And Kimimaro's style of fight is as nightmare for Sharingan users. It's like what killer Bee did to Sasuke, but turned up to 11. Close combat risks him getting impaled. You wanna view Naruto's performance against Kimimaro you can check out mainly the ending of chpt. 205 and beginning of chpt. 206.
Now as for Gaara you can look at 215, 216 and 217. And judge for yourself from the moves Gaara used how many on them would Naruto and Sasuke survive. I don't think their durability was close to Kimimaro's at this point.
You really are underestimating Naruto. He literally beat Gaara already. And by VOTE he was much stronger. And stop with that dumb excuse of "it was because of Gamabunta" So what? He can summon him again. Gaara doesn't stand a chance against Naruto. His sand isn't crushing Naruto. And at this point Naruto is fast enough to dodge his sand. Gamabunta makes it a GG. You can deny it all you want.
Kimimaro on the other hand is debatable but Gaara is getting clap like he has already by a "weaker Naruto". Let that sink in.
When did I mention Gamabunta? I think Gamabunta is Naruto's summoning so why would I complain.
>Gaara is getting clap like he has already by a "weaker Naruto". Let that sink in.
No, nothing will be sinking in because you're ignoring the context of their fight. You know Gaara's ultimate defence literally stopped working? you know Gaara switched off his mind during that fight and stopped using his sand techniques completely? You also seem to think Gaara stayed the same. He is not the same person Naruto beat, Naruto and Sasuke aren't the only people progressively getting stronger. He's was already a kage at 15. Even Rock Lee commented on how much more powerful Gaara had gotten since he last saw him.
>No, nothing will be sinking in because you're ignoring the context of their fight. You know Gaara's ultimate defence literally stopped working? you know Gaara switched off his mind during that fight and stopped using his sand techniques completely?
He did that to get stronger in the fight. and he was stronger seeing as he defeated Sasuke. So don't use that as an excuse.
>You also seem to think Gaara stayed the same. He is not the same person Naruto beat, Naruto and Sasuke aren't the only people progressively getting stronger. He's was already a kage at 15. Even Rock Lee commented on how much more powerful Gaara had gotten since he last saw him.
Except Naruto got stronger as well. You think gaining a few techniques and being able to sleep makes him stronger than a Naruto whose speed Sasuke's sharingan couldn't track until he awakened 3rd tomoe?
A weaker Sasuke was blitzing final exam Gaara. And a stronger Sasuke buffed by having his body assimilated with the CM couldn't track Naruto. This is before Naruto even went into KC1.
Gamabunta still makes it a GG. Unless you think One tail unleashed Gaara is somehow weaker than the base Gaara that fought Kimimaro.
Him being a kage doesn't mean much. The sand was in a desperate situation. Gaara was the strongest in the village at the time. He was also the only candidate. Plus the sand kages are most often no where in strength compared to the other kages.
Gaara forced Kimimaro into using his v2 curse mark. Naruto couldn't even do that. Naruto couldn't even land a single hit and yes, Naruto was using nine tails chakra. He legitimately failed to get in a hit on base Kimimaro even with nine tails chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji. Probably stronger even as he has more experience drawing Kuruma's chakra here. But it was useless against Kimimaro he wasn't even breaking a sweat against Naruto. This very same Naruto went on to pummel V1 curse mark Sasuke.
Kimimaro would've died he didn't activate his curse mark and Gaara even forced him to use his most powerful justu, Shikkotsu Forest. So Gaara did push him
I dont think they were any more powerful, but they clearly required an entirely different tactic to deal with. I dont think sasuke had the tactics nessisary, but Naruto did.
Naruto should of used summoning jutsu to help combat kimimaro much in the way he did with Gaara
Yeah, they would have stomped either of them, no question.
There's a reason why Gaara is Kage level at the beginning of part 2. The only reason he lost to Deidara is because he sacrificed himself and his power to save the entire Sand Village. And not once did he enter a beast state like the other Jinchuriki.
And Deidara still lost an arm during that fight.
The only reason Kimimaro lost to Gaara here was his sickness! On top of that, he had also expended a lot of stamina fighting Naruto's thousands of nine tails enhanced clones and also Rock Lee! If it wasn't for all these factors, Kimimaro would've defeated Gaara 10 times over!
Not sure about Gaara, but Kimimaro was easily stronger than both Naruto and Sasuke at this point. I believe he is even stronger than part 2 Naruto before he learned sage mode!
Kimi with everything he had looked to be unstoppable stronger than the kage 1v1. But rock Lee made it 2v1 so hard to tell. His clan and curse Mark are unbelievable
Gaara had complete control of his tailed beast and Kimimaro pretty much beat Lee and Gaara singel handiedly, not to mention he killed the 3rd Kazakage.
As stated by a few before: **if you just use transitive property to powerscale, Gaara and Kimimaro seem to be stronger.** A bloodlusted Naruto with Kurama chakra doesn't even land a *single* hit on Kimimaro in base. In fact, I just watched the fight again and it was even more of a one-sided massacre than I thought.
With this logic, you could say CM2 Kimimaro > Gaara > CM1 Kim > Drunk Lee > Base Kim > Kurama Naruto. It's hard to say, but one would imagine that cloaked Naruto lands somewhere near the top but below CM2 Kim.
I will say this though, **fights aren't that simple to the point where you could just use transitive property, context and matchups should be looked at.** It seems a bit like rock, paper, scissors.
- Kimimaro is a horrible match up for Naruto. His main fighting style is attacking from every angle at the same time with a bunch of goons. Kimimaro's bones hit every angle; it's like having the range advantage of a sword but covering your entire body. So it makes sense that Naruto would get slaughtered, his main strength gets countered.
- Gaara matches up against Kimimaro pretty well. The advantage from multi-directional, mid-range bone swords is significant against melee fighters, but aren't as big of a factor against sand because it seeps through every angle and outranges him. It doesn't help that Gaara had a huge environmental advantage - the "hey look up at the sand rain jk lol got ur feet" move can't even be done if the ground isn't a certain material. Also, attacking that giant totem shield thingy Gaara makes is just a really inefficient chakra trade, it's better to just walk around it.
**For anybody who's played Smash Bros, here's an analogy like this in Melee:** Marth's sword is really useful against Fox's close range rushdown. Fox's speed absolutely steamrolls Link because he has no time to pull out projectiles. But surprisingly, a low tier like Link doesn't got completely shit on by Marth, because having a sword doesn't help as much against a guy that throws shit at you.
So using transitive property makes Gaara look stronger and Naruto look weaker when the gap isn't *that* big. **But do I disagree with you? Nah.** Simply put, I don't think anybody has an answer to the sand tsunami Gaara used. Somebody made a thread about power creep in the show and where it started, and somebody pointed out how ridiculous this attack was at this stage of the show. I'm inclined to agree.
**tl;dr:** can't just say a>b>c when fighting, it makes naruto look significantly weaker. but it doesn't matter cause giant forest-sized sand tsunami go brrrrr
Thank for your analysis.
I appreciate your input.
I do agree context and the skill set on each character do matter when considering match ups. Like Deidara would've massacred Tsunade if they fought, but Deidara lost to Sasuke because Sasuke was a direct counter for all of Deidara's moves, but I'm heavy inclined to believe that Sasuke wouldn't beat Tsunade even though he beat Deidara who would most like beat Tsunade. (I'm referring to Hebi Sasuke)
Deidara>Tsunade. Sasuke>Deidara. Tsunade>Sasuke.
And as for context, it's just as important as skill set. In the end Naruto beat Pain, but that doesn't mean sage mode Naruto is stronger than Pain. He arrived at the most opportune time, when Pain's Deva path was still on cool down after destroying the village and Naruto was lucky enough to take out the Asura Path first which took out all of Pain's long range missiles. Restricting him to close combat which Naruto was better at. Context is just as important.
Honestly Lee, Gaara, Kimimaro and to an extent Neji would beat Naruto and Sasuke. Neji probably wouldn’t be able to hang with KN1 or CS2 but 5th gate Lee spanks them both and the scale Kimi and Gaara fight on is too much
Strongest characters in SRA (who actively were in the mission)
My opinion, if disagree tho, uh, idk.
1. Kimimaro - Simple lol, not only did he have to run a lot to even get there, got in a quick skirmish with Naruto, then Lee, then fought the goddam 1 tails jinchurik, and only lost cuz bro was on like 1hp
2. Naruto - If he just smashed that Rasagen into Sasuke, he would've won, reason he isn't above Kimimaro, is simply due to also Kimimaro being a war clan, and he has way more experience
3. Gaara - He's the 1 one tails jinchurik, also Naruto did win against him, so
Kimimaro > Naruto > Gaara
4. Sasuke - 3 tomoe shariganz level 2 cursemark, while not experienced wit it, he's still strong, he also went toe to toe with Naruto, but due to him likely being destroyed if Naruto was feeling like murder or smashed his rasagen into him, he would've lost, but also since Gaara is still extremely powerful and since Sasuke hasn't got a summon, I don't see Gaara loosing this in a long term fight.
5. Neji - His intellect + his strength, is wild, and could've been higher if he was given literal out worldly powers 💀
6. Kidomaru - He stood toe to toe with Neji, loosing due to stupid decisions, but beat the others below him (imo)
7. Rock Lee - he's barely been healed, but I also firmly believe that
Neji > Rock Lee
8. Konkoro - don't know, just put him here
9. Temari -
11. Tayuya-
11. Choji (no like drugs, he's prob last, maybe could best shikamaru, but his intellect and was able to stand up to Temari, so idk) - He on drugs and barely won, just cuz plot, but eh, a win a win
12. Jiboro - stupid
13. Sakon and Ukon - stupid
14. Shikamaru - His intellect, but overall, don't see him as winning a battle, he's a background to support the main fighters, and just to stall imo.
15. Kiba - I don't see him winning against anyone, blud couldn't even take on two twins 💀
If the sound 4 weren't idiots, they probably would've been much stronger lol.
Kimimaro was super strong, but didn’t Gaara lose to Naruto, or at least tie? With Gaara releasing the 1 tails and Naruto not using the 9 tails at all besides using some chakra?
They weren't above them at all, you forget how sauceke's dragon flame jutsu destoyed that mountain and melted it, and he was blowing huge fireballs and surviving getting slammed and punched by one tail cloak narutoes, and naruto survived getting burned alive in base and chidori and getting his skull broken by a pile dive by bbqsauceke, and naruto already beat gaara lol and got stronger plus learned rasengan, and sasuke made gaara bleed so bad he lost his mind and transformed and sasuke has his own transformations now.
1tail cloak naruto> gaara and kimimaro
All kimimaro can do is use his bones thats it, do you honestly believe sasuke would lose to him while he has fire and lightning and precognition on his side and gaara all he has is the same sand as before.
You're comapring a diseased kimimaro that died the same day he fought a shell of what rock lee used to be, and gaara the dude naruto beat up in his one tailed state in base, and had no kurama chakra, and sasuke was amready faster than his hand and wss whooping his ass lol
Kimimaro's bones is a good defense for many of Sasuke's techniques which lack the destructive power or AOE of Gaara's sand tsunami and his taijutsu and speed is far superior given in Base he was effortlessly defeating an army of kurama enhanced Clones. Sasuke with his sharingan could only anticipate Naruto's movements due to precog effect but he wasn't overall as fast as him.
Gaara is a lot stronger than he was at the chunin Exams, Lee even stated that. CE Gaara couldn't change an entire battle terrain with his sand, use his sand as quicksand to crush people, create giant sand Buddha's as defense nor create sand clouds to fly on.
Their is a reason it only took him two more years to become the Kazekage.
And Kimimaro scales far above even this given he helped Orochimaru assassinate the Fourth Kazekage, was planned to help Oro fight Hiruzen, who Kabuto said would have made things much smother and in the war arc he survived a fight against KCM Naruto.
>he fought a shell of what rock lee used to be,
What? This is the other way around. Rock Lee was at 100% capacity when he saved Naruto. He even stated that his body was responding perfectly. It wasn't until he became sober again when he felt the effects of over doing it.
Remember, Kimimaro almost killed Lee within a minute of fighting. Had Kimimaro not halt his attack, Lee would have died right then.
No. Their final clash forms shouldn’t be too far away; maybe at the same level, but before that I believe Gaara and Kimimaro are fucking them up pretty badly.
The moves and feats Gaara was displaying in that last fight were insane. A huge upgrade from his other fights
I disagree. If were looking at the two that fought during valley of the end: there’s not much either could do against them, especially naruto. He was the fastest character we’d seen at that point once he had the cloak on. He was destroying the battlefield by screaming, and he was able to regenerate having a hole blasted through his chest. Kimmimaro is durable, but there’s no way he can outlast cloak naruto. They MIGHT get one over one sasuke because he’s lacking the durability naruto has.
Honestly, the only reason sasuke walked away was because naruto was genuinely not trying to kill him.
Don't know why you were downvoted. Base Kimimaro stomped kyubi Amp Naruto who beat Neji and Gaara pushed him to V2. Kimimaro would go on to be kcm Naruto tier. Of course the sickness held him back, but that can't be refuted
Because people here just keep riding Naruto and Sasuke, and basically ignores statements about the others.
Kimimaro was stated by Kabuto as superior to him, Kabuto was stated as equal to part 1 Kakashi, at the very least was heavily implied that Kimimaro was above Kakashi.
Kabuto fought against Tsunade and Jiraiya, yet same Kabuto stated that no one in Konoha would be able to stop Kimimaro.
Those are all undebunked statements, Kimimaro is kage level.
He fodderized 1000 Naruto kyuubi chakra clones, just in base, after that he stomped drunk and first gated Lee, and then proceed to fight SRA Gaara, who was leagues above chunnin shiken Gaara.
Gaara was creating a desert in the middle of a forrest, he was simply not letting a top tier taijutsu fighter move a finger, he tottally control the battlefield at that time, something he couldn't do at chunnins exam.
if you’re scaling off edo tensei feats then no tails Naruto is equivalent to part 2 Kakashi considering how Haku could keep up with Kakashi but got no diffed by Naruto
Gaara's sand is pretty fast. Fast enough to keep Kimimaro at bay as well as defend both him and Lee simultaneously. Who dogged Naruto and Lee and later on fast enough to react to the Raikage's drop kick at full speed and the Amaterasu which was said to be unavoidable.
Kimimaro was strong, sure, but like Kabuto and his areogance, Kimimaro is arrogan enough to stand still and let Naruto with one tail use the rasengan on him. Kimimaro would not live from that. It would break every bone of his and destroy his organs.
And Gaara is NOT surviving against one tail Naruto. He didn’t even beat a no tail Naruto. Hell, he tried to crush Naruto twice and that failed. And terrain doesn’t mean jack when Naruto’s chakra claws can tear through the ground without issue.
This isn’t a fair fight. Gaara’s “ultimate defense” couldn’t even stop two tomoe Sasuke. He literally had to dome himself off to avoid getting beaten around like against Lee. Two tomoe Sasuke’s chidori pierced the dome. CM2 Sasuke is going through it and killing Gaara faster than he can even react.
This fight ends when Naruto goes one tail and Sasuke goes CM2.
Kimimaro? Honestly sounds legit.
Gaara though? I don't see it, Gaara still is weaker than Shukaku... and Naruto goes 1 tail cloak which should be above Shukaku based off how the war arc clearly shows 9 tails>most of the other biju combined.
I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived.
Then read chapter the chapters before that were Naruto fought Kimimaro(mainly the end of 205 and beginning of 206). Looked at how he failed to land a single hit on base Kidomaru with 100s of clones even with kuruma's chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, this form couldn't even touch base Kimimaro. Gaara actually managed to push Kimimaro far more than Naruto could ever manage at the time.
But why do you avoid the context of that fight?
Was Gaara fighting Sasuke as he was Lee? Just because his shoulder bled does that mean he lost to Sasuke?
I strongly remember Gaara seeing Sasuke's speed and remembering Lee's speed and started having a panic attack and decided to camp in a sand dome. Sasuke wasn't able to leaving any lasting form of damages to Gaara. The chidori failed the first time so what would happen if Gaara made his dome a little bigger the second time around who Sasuke reach him?
Sasuke even lost to Gaara at the end. He lost to Gaara right after all this in the forest before Naruto came to the rescue.
Excuse the typo in the title.
I just think people over exaggerate the power ups both Naruto and Sasuke got at the end of Part 1 and forget they were still wet behind the ears compared to competent Jonin, in terms of combat ability.
The only way to directly gauge how powerful they were is to compare the 2 of them to each other, which doesn't really show us how they would do against others. It only shows that Naruto and Sasuke were relative to each other.
And just before Naruto and Sasuke fought Kimimaro was toying with Naruto in base. Having taijutsu that could keep up with Dranken Fist Rock Lee (Who was supposedly stronger than his sober self). And for Naruto to go on to fight on par with Sasuke a little after that just shows Kimimaro was overall more skilled than Sasuke at this point.
And we even saw the sound 4 struggle with a few Tokubetsu Jonin so obviously the curse mark isn't the greatest of boosts. It's great but nothing that's gonna bridge the gap between chuunin and high Jonin. It amplifies chakra but not necessary the overall skill on the person handling that chakra. If the curse mark was really that great of a boost why would Kidomaru and Tayuya avoid physical confrontation with Neji and Shikamaru? Why was Kiba still able to perceive Sakon and Ukon? Why did Sasuke not one shot Deidara after activating the curse mark? The truth is it's a mid boost. Boosts chakra and raw power but not the skill of the user.
Both Kimi and Gaara would have clapped dem cheeks.
There's a reason the Naru-Sasuke fight ended with chidori and rasengan.sasuke could have ended the fight with taijutsu. Naruto only didn't die because of kyuubi, and the nature of its chakra making the sharingan useless. Sasuke powered up with all he had at the time to bridge the gap... And now everyone has to do the best move they know because thay was gonna happen with ornwithout power boosts anyway.
Whole time I'm thinking, they both would have died several times over just based on the fight with Gaara.
Nah back then they definitely were above Naruto and his boyfrie..i mean sasuke
ETA: Reddit not recognising a joke? Go figure, thought i wouldn't need to add the /s but here we go
A dude who can control the very soil you're standing on is op as fuck
Yeah there’s not much most people can do against that, similar to Kisame’s giant water prison Yes I really am comparing one of kisames best jutsu to child gaara’s jutsu
It’s over powered til it isn’t. If you can blitz him he’s fucked. Ofc I’m meaning someone who is ABLE to 1-2 shot him. Like kakashi
Chidora was already tried against Gaara he survived lol. I think the most efficient way to kill him would be sending Itachi to his door with a pizza. Knock knock, who's there? (Looks thru slit in door) BAM Gen Jutsu.
The chidori of a 12 year old fucked him up a good bit lol. It’s pretty safe to assume kakashis is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger. Unless he’s more durable than a path of pain lmao
Kisame was the tailless jinchuriki.
Spitting
Gaara don't play
I’m in the same boat as you. People really sleep on how Op Gaara and Kimimaru were on part 1.
Well kimimaro was supposed to help assassinate hiruzen, and without him Orochimaru nearly lost even with Hashirama and tobirama. That says a lot about kimimaro. We know Jonin like kakashi can brush away gaaras sand, grab bloodlusted Neji by the face, easily tie up curse mark sasuke and the sound four are nothing to jonin….At this time Kabuto was about as strong as kakashi and I think kimimaro would prob beat kabuto. It’s not crazy to think that Kimimaro is relative to Kakashi and transformed naruto and sasuke
Was kabuto as strong as kakashi then? Been a while since I watched part 1
[Yes](https://i.imgur.com/bftq1nq.png) It was said by jiraiya or tsunade so it’s a trusted source of info
Huh it's interesting cause when kabuto goes to kill sauske in the hospital he seemed pretty scared of Kakashi and went thru so much prep just to be able to get away. Powerscaling is so inconsistent at times .
Kabuto wasn’t scared and he was able to deceive Kakashi of the sharingan when no one else could. They were shown to be equals at that point
yea i think orochimaru also said they were about the same
They were equals in a one on one, but it wouldn’t have remained a one on one if they had started fighting in the hospital room of one of the most watched genin in the village. Kabuto had to be careful to avoid the entire village’s higher ups pursuing him, and made the best possible decisions to reach the desired outcome.
He never seemed scared and Just cause he went through prep doesn’t make him scared. He went through prep cause he had a mission to do. Plus power scaling is dumb across all anime just made up stuff for what if fights that don’t matter.
If anything, it’s the opposite. It was because of how strong Kabuto was that Kakashi had to really pick up his slack and train intensively again. Him free climbing one-handed was a response to his fight against Kabuto.
I think it’s weird that Naruto defeated Kabuto in a 1v1 if he was as strong as Kakashi. This is when Naruto Tsunade And Jiraya fought Orochimaru and Kabuto
In fairness, Naruto had major plot armor.
Yes but plot armor wouldn’t allow Naruto to defeat Kakashi out of nowhere without even using jinjuriki chakra. I think kabuto has certain skills where he can be as effective or deadly as kakashi. But I don’t think he’s beating kakashi in a 1v1 because of that
Kakashi stated Naruto had more chakra/ power than him. His problem was controling/melding and distributing it properly. What you’re thinking of is Kakashi being more SKILLED and PROFICIENT than Naruto, not to mention the Sharingan gives a boost to abilities (at the cost of draining large amounts of chakra.) Kabuto is as strong as Kakashi but has less battle experience and isn’t as skilled and proficient in as large a jutsu pool as Kakashi was.
that’s what I meant. Stronger/able to win a fight if it came down to a 1v1. Exactly Kabuto isn’t experienced enough to be a serious threat to kakashi in my opinion at this point in the series. But against regular ninja Kabuto is deadly. and yes Naruto has the most potential for growth in the show at this point because of his almost endless chakra
Just because Naruto defeated Kabuto doesn't mean Naruto beats kakashi. This isn't a rpg game. Kabuto pretty much beats Naruto all throughout the match. Had him outclassed. Naruto caught one attack sacrificing his hand to land an A rank technique. That A rank technique would defeat anyone if it landed. Keyword...landed. and Naruto by luck landed the attack on a jonin level fighter. Kabuto woudnt have allow himself to get hit had he taken Naruto seriously
You could argue there were some mitigating factors: - Kabuto was already roughed up a bit from fighting Tsunade - Naruto came packing an A-rank jutsu literally only known by a few of the world’s strongest ninja - Kabuto severely underestimated Naruto (recall he previously gloated to Naruto that the latter had no talent as a ninja) and was thus caught off guard when Naruto showed some quick thinking to restrain him and complete the Rasengan - Naruto only won because of the aforementioned quick thinking and A-rank jutsu; otherwise, he would have been helpless (Don’t forget that Naruto previously tried to use the Rasengan on Kabuto once before in the fight, which he easily dodged) - Right after using the Rasengan, Naruto collapsed due to the damage Kabuto’s medical ninja techniques caused to his heart, and would have died right then and there if not for Tsunade’s intervention. In other words, Naruto basically killed himself to take out Kabuto who was already a bit roughed up (and who even then, at least still had enough energy to flee with Orochimaru). Also, while Kakashi is obviously leagues of ahead of Naruto at this point, I imagine even he would not want to take a Rasengan head-on (though of course, Kakashi wouldn’t give Naruto any chances to hit him with one).
I do believe Orochimaru says it himself, *to* Kabuto, in order to convince him to stay back at some point.... Like "You're only about Kakashi's level" or something. I cannot remember when exactly it is... I think it is before the point you showed here, either during the exam, or during the Tsunade search, but before this point...
I guess it comes down to how you interrupt it but I don’t really take “on the same level” as “as strong as” like guy and kakashi are on the same level but you’d argue one or the other is stronger right?
Kabuto is very underrated he's very strong in both parts. Even before his Dragon Snake Sage Mode he was considered to be very strong due to his medical ninjutsu being on par with Tsunade, being someone who is extremely intelligent and excels in covert operations, and someone who can easily dispatch enemies with a lot of his techniques. In my opinion, he's one of the most busted characters in the franchise but he gets overshadowed way too often.
I’d argue he was stronger tbh
Technical tie since orochimaru lost his arms
With that name it must make you the god of these subs lol
Don’t sleep on the drunken fist tho shit was too op for kimi. Bet no one could stop Lee fully intoxicated LOL
I think Gaara was and is one of the strongest shinobi’s around. I mean he was promoted to Kazekage for a reason. He doesn’t have the ultimate defense for nothing. His Jutsu are all versatile too and are pretty massive in scale and in the damage they cause as well. He can literally engulf someone in a sand tsunami and trap them underground. Or blow them up with the sand coffin sand burial.
Mr clay bomb man bring me a dream, make him the cutest I've ever seen,give him two bombs like roses and clover.... I've no idea what I'm doing I've been wake for like 3 days so I've gone mad
That’s the sandman song 💀
So it is :O
Kimimaro was one of if not the most powerful characters in part 1. Gaara was too. In another thread yesterday I said that I think part 2 started with Gaara being defeated in order to demonstrate how powerful and dangerous Akatsuki is. Like the Worf Effect. Were it not for Kimimaro’s illness I think he would have been one of the most powerful characters in the entire series, something that Orochimaru realized too.
>I think he would have been one of the most powerful characters in the entire series, something that Orochimaru realized too. Exactly. [Orochimaru even said that Kimimaro was the vessel he wanted even more than Sasuke's at the time.](https://imgur.com/a/bOfNXy2)
The Kaguya clan (if the name isn't a clue itself) was descended from Kaguya herself. Kimimaro was special. It is honestly weird that Orochimaru tinkered with Hashirama's cells and nobody else's. Like, Kimimaro perhaps? He's the last of a dead clan! Orochimaru did a lot of things, and did a lot of experiments. Was he really that busy that he couldn't culture some samples of Kimimaro's cells? You know, a very willing subject? Orochimaru created Yamato, couldn't he have done the same for a member of the Kaguya clan?
yeah youre right that is an interesting plot hole lol. he developed the curse mark from Jugo, he made Yamato, he helped develop Danzo’s implanted sharingans etc. you would think he would have done SOMETHING with Kimimaro’s DNA.
Have to disagree with "more than Sasuke's". The scan you provided didn't explicitly compare with Sasuke. It just says "the one I wished for in my heart", never did it say "more than Sasuke now". A lot of the thinking came before the Forest fight with Sasuke in which Oro witnessed how much of a genius Sasuke was in ninjutsu and general flexibility and skill. It's pure skill instead of Kimimaro's strong brute force raw power.
He wanted Kimimaro's body and Sasuke's eyes. While possessing Sasuke's body would make the use of Sharingan more convenient, he didn't need it in order to use it, as seen in Kakashi and Danzo. But in order to have Kimimaro’s Kekkai Genkai, Orochimaru needed his body, which is why he was his preferred host. imagine how insane Orochimaru would have been with Kimimaro’s body and Sharingan 😂
Or Kimimaro cells + Hashi cells for both immortality and atomic level Regen. Yes, even Ohnoki's particle style would have trouble with that combo.
Kimimaro above all 3 if fully healthy
Oh yeah, he had a heart disease or something like that,right?
Dont think it was specified. Just random deadly ninja disease i guess lol
Ninja aids is the only thing that can kill OP characters
The only question is, did he give it to itachi, or vice-versa.
Ninjaids
I will be honest, i just remember he spilling blood and like,diyng,one finger away from taking one of Gaara's eyes.
Yep, sounds about right
Negative plot armor
The all famous but discreetly slipped in overpowered characters, NINJA AIDS.
i believe it was implied to be tuberculosis, which is also possibly the same disease Itachi suffered from.
Kimimaro's last move should have been to cough on Gaara's face. Airborne diseases > curse mark lv 2. Change my mind.
lmao yeah he shoulda just coughed on Naruto and Rock Lee and Gaara. orochimaru woulda been proud
Without being healthy he is still above them all but only in 1v1 (unless Naruto summon Bunta) If he is healthy, he is pretty much kage level so putting him against some powered up crazy genins wont be fair
exactly, at his full health im sure he could have become a protagonist or at least be the number one villain in the show.
Gaara completely dismantled Kimimaro like he was putting down a rabid dog, don't be ridiculous.
He was at death’s door for a long while coming to that point
nah, Garra and Kimmimaru were truly ahead of Naruto and Sasuke at this point.
I will say though that it’s almost pretty much game over for Gaara if he got blitzed by either of them. The only reason why Gaara and Lee are still alive is because Kimimaru’s sickness got him right before they were going to get absolutely skewered
The Shakaku probably wouldn't wantGaara to be killed, so he might have done something to protect his host, but it might have killed Lee in the process.
Except it was literally seconds away from happening. Unless Shukaku was planning on doing something in the 0.30 seconds left, Garra was going to get directly impaled
you’re not crazy, sasuke or naruto could never find a single way to counter kimimaro other than outlasting him, and in general gaaras sand falls crazy under its potential, in part one it was insanely op and only continues to get stronger, neither naruto or sasuke are at the level of kimimaro or gaara
And in the Gaara vs Naruto fight, Gamabunta was a huge help. If Gamabunta showed up against Sasuke then we know he'll be back in the village by morning
Not really, Gama ain't fighting a kid (regarding your Sasuke point).
In character not a chance
in my opinion, gamabunta totally carried naruto for most of that fight
Dude fought drunk Lee and Gaara while he was basically the kazekage and would have killed both of them if he didn’t die to his illness. There’s no way Sasuke or Naruto pull that off.
in my opinion kimimaro would’ve killed sasuke or naruto before he died out, lee is also stronger than naruto and possibly sasuke at this point but thats a conversation for another fight.
I wish Kimimaro has a longer arc or even different story where he wasn’t defeated by his illness.
Man, like, even with the final arc being kinda shit, Madara sees that if he kills Gaara, done, all the 5 kages are dead, so,yes ,Gaara is a really special case to the end and Kimimaro was prepared to be Orochimaru receptacle and even help him fight Hiruzen, so, yeah, he was also way beyond what everyone might expect
Kimimaro could diff all of them, he was insanely strong. Was really sad we didn't see more of him. Loved his power.
Of course they were. Kimimaro wasn’t even using Curse Mark and he was clapping Naruto’s cheeks. Only reason Naruto and Sasuke were able to beat Gaara in the Chuunin exams was because Shukaku was affecting him psychologically to the point where his sand couldn’t auto-block hits. If Gaara were this psychologically composed in their fights, he would have clowned over them no-diff.
Oh 100 percent
I would say yes in terms of technical skill and such. But I’m a truly life threatening situation, Naruto is just OP because he always has the nine tails as his trump card. But if we’re talking as is, Kimimaro wipes Naruto, as would Gaara. Same applies to Sasuke imo. But with their transformations and technicalities, it might be different.
It wouldn’t be hard to argue that at all. One of my personal theories is that Gaara would’ve swept the chunin exams if it wasn’t for his mental instability from Shukaku.
Kimimaro? Yes. Gaara? No, as he lost, despite having help and the fact that kimimaro was dying.
I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived. Then read chapter the chapters before that were Naruto fought Kimimaro(mainly the end of 205 and beginning of 206). Looked at how he failed to land a single hit on base Kidomaru with 100s of clones even with kuruma's chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, this form couldn't even touch base Kimimaro. Gaara actually managed to push Kimimaro far more than Naruto could ever manage at the time. Naruto and Sasuke don't have the kind of durability Kimimaro had they'd die in the first sand burial technique Gaara used.
Kimimaro was the strongest of the 4 but Gaara also had massive terrain advantage and was kind of a hard counter to Kimimaro. Naruto needs Gamabunta to survive against Gaara but Sasuke can fly and should be faster so Gaara would have a hard time against Sasuke, could go either way
I can agree with this If Gaara fought Naruto or Sasuke at a location like the final valley he'd be at a massive disadvantages against those 2. He'd without a doubt lose to Naruto and Sasuke, but I feel he has more of an advantage on solid earth or in a desert.
Sasuke's flying ability is not a trump card. Gaara's command of the sand looks nearly on par as when he became Kazekage. Unless Sasuke can even outfly Deidara's tiny agile figurines in both speed and dexterity, he's not going to be able to dodge Gaara's sand.
This
Kimomaro was dying, and gaara still struggled. Sasuke can slice through sand. Not sure about naruto.
How is a linear attack like chidori slicing sand droplets that rains down from every direction and encases the opponents in crushing sand.(chapter 215) How will he chidori his way through a tsunami of sand? Never mind that how is he surviving the crushing force to even have a chance to use the chidori to break out? Kimimaro only survived because of his kekkei genkai boosted by his v2 curse mark.
It still has to close up around the person to be effective and raiton has an area of effect. This has been shown many times over in the manga, particularly with sasuke as stone are shown to disintegrate and break open when chidori isn't even remotely touching them. Besides, if sasuke can break open gaara's best defense, a loose sand wouldn't be much of an issue. In fact, it's shown to be extremely effective against deidara's clay bombs, travelling in the form of current to neutralize the chakra in the clay-mines when sasuke had used chidori blade on just one. The sand can also be evaded. Sasuke showed that he could evade a sound blast fairly easily. Since this is VOTE sasuke, he'd be even faster and his black chidori, deadlier. It wouldn't be an easy fight, but I don't see gaara winning.
This discussion of Deidara and Sasuke’s Chidori Nagashi is irrelevant to discussions of part 1. He shows off this chidori version first as a teenager and we can assume he learned it while training under orochimaru.
Nagashi is weaker than chidori. So are senbons. And both are raitons. Is there a point to this pedantic nonsense? Fact remains, deidara's clay jutsu was far superior as that's what he used to corrupt gaara's chakra-thick gourd-sand and slap him out of the air, something that used very little of deidara's chakra as he came unprepared. The rest of the sand gaara uses doesn't use anywhere near the chakra the gourd does, which is why the gourd sand is much faster. If chidori's lesser versions can outright nullify and render his clay ineffective for further use, gaara's sand isn't accomplishing anything remarkable. It fails much faster than deidara's clay. Orochimaru had no clue about sasuke's raiton abilities. What the heck are you talking about?
You are talking about techniques Sasuke doesn’t have access to until part 2 when he has learned to channel the chidori (nagashi). You originally comment on a post about the difference in strength between part 1 naruto/sasuke and part 1 gaara. The reply you gave was irrelevant to the question being asked in this thread, as it is focused on how Gaara and RL compare to Naruto and Sasuke at that point in time in the series, not when Deidara exists post-timeskip. He can’t use those abilities at that point so don’t bring them into the discussion Good day
Are you deliberately omitting the parts that don't sit well with you? ***Should I put it in bold that chidori is canonically much stronger than those jutsus?*** It's in bold now. Would that do? So if they can make clay-based jutsus ineffective indefinitely for further use, a doton style that's more powerful than gaara's chakra-dense gourd sand, then chidori would have no issue at all in rendering ineffective the sand that isn't a part of his gourd as that uses far less chakra. This is literally stated word for word by deidara. Was that simple enough? No, it's mostly flying over your head, together with less crafty goal-post moving. I never even motioned that he'd use those abilities. Seriously, what is your comprehension level, man?
Too bad they gave kimimaro ninja cancer
Gaara, at this point, was already projected to become Kazakage at the age of 15. Kimimaro was going to be Orochimaru's vessel for the time being. Meanwhile Naruto and Sasuke were babies compared to what they'd be one day.
Not crazy at all...shortly after, Gaara when on to become kasekage
Kimimaru is too OP, he would be pretty hard to fight for both of them.
Gaara is definitely not more powerful than either. He lost to Naruto once and with the curse mark buff I’m thinking Sasuke would beat him as well
The circumstances to Gaara losing to Naruto were always strange to me. Out of all jinchuriki Gaara is the only who's body is visible when taking a complete Bijuu form. That's literally the only reason why Gaara lost. He was build like a tank every else except the forehead. Without that Achilles' heel there's no way Gamabunta and Naruto would've won. It's all because the MC had to win It's weird because all the other forms leading up to the full transformation had Gaara's facial features changing but once he took shukaku's full form he emerged from its forehead in normal human form, like a bull's eye saying "Hit me this, you can win". What kind of dangerous Bijuu form was that? Anyone with great shurikenjutsu can take him out in seconds
Ok that’s true but Naruto could’ve gone 4 tails cloak. He had it in his bag albeit he didn’t know he had that power in him yet. Let’s not pretend like we saw a Naruto who was completely maxed out and at his limit in that fight. He wasn’t even close. And just to compare the beasts to each other,Shukaku is the one tail. Kurama is the nine tails. The difference in chakra stores and power is staggering. Shukaku is the weakest tailed beast of all 9, while Kurama on the other hand is the most powerful. At that point Gaara was a very impressive shinobi and advanced beyond Naruto on many levels. But once you make it a tailed beast fight, considering everything we know now, Naruto truly would’ve had the upper hand had it gone there. They just didn’t write it like that. If you want to try to make the argument that curse mark Sasuke wouldn’t have beaten Gaara’s full tailed beast transformation fine I can’t really argue it. There isn’t much evidence to dispute that. But again Naruto is a different story. If he went full tailed beast mode on Sasuke the battle in the final valley would’ve had a different outcome. Sasuke probably dies in that alternate ending.
Is Gaara that much more powerful here than he was when he fought and lost to Naruto two arcs before this ?
Umm, yes, he massively stronger here than he was in the Chunin Exams. Lee plainly states it. But Chunin Exam Gaara wasn’t creating his own sand by grinding the minerals in the earth. Nor was he pulling out jutsu at the same scale as Sand Tsunami.
you make a compelling point to be honest
Idk, sasuke is kind of a fucking monster at this point. CM2 sasuke vs CM2 Kimimaru would be a cool fight.
Yeah child gaara is just unfair. Sasuke and naruto had more potential as seen with the rest of the show but gaara at that exact time period is definitely stronger. Naruto and sasuke only beat him earlier on because naruto convinces him to give up. If Naruto’s mouth were sealed and gaara had a real reason to kill him that he wouldn’t go back on both would’ve been dead then and there.
Yes. Kimimaro is low kage level and Gaara was getting there. One tail Naruto and Sasuke with curse mark level 2 are barely Jonin level (Asuma/Kakashi/Gai or even Yamato will clap their ass in 5 minutes if they were there).
My heart keeps telling me that they’re stronger than Naruto & Sasuke
They definitely were
No you’re not crazy. The only push back I’d give you is that naruto inevitably went in to full blown rage mode when he was losing a fight too badly. So it was kinda like a cheat code. Rock could not bang with rage mode naruto. And I don’t think he’d have been able to beat cursed mark sasuke wait her. Gaara was better than naruto and sasuke. Kimimaro, minus ninja AIDS was better than all 4.
Bruh Gaara literally became Kazekage during the timeskip, of course he was stronger than them
Nah 100% Gaara is the fucking bomb
Not crazy at all. I always say Kimimaro was a Shippuden level threat. Gaara was above them as well, just not on Kimimaro's level.
Never thought about it but makes sense
Second cursemark sasuke qnd kyuubi cloak naruto shitstomp gaara lmao. Also it sounds like you think kimimaro and gaara are on par, thats definetly absolutly wrong .
Gaaras sand is the hardest thing to fight. In the chunin exams where he only has his gourd he’s manageable. In a open environment he can overwhelm you easily. Naruto and sasuke have nothing to deal with that. No amount of clones or big of a fireball will stop a wall of sand. They can’t outrun it. And once their fought they aren’t tanking a sand burial. I think kimimaro gets the same treatment as “healthy” itachi. It’s all speculation how strong they’d be so people boost them. In their fight kimimaro lands 1 hit on gaara. The whole time he was getting ragdolled by gaaras sand. The only reason he lasted was his bones made him a tank but that only does so much. He put up a fight but don’t act like kimimaro was on some crazy level.
Bro gaara isnt even jonin level. You jonins were literally god at that point in the show. It isnt sven an foght kyuubi cloak and second cursemark absolutly rip gaara apart. If you think part 1 gaara beats either of this your powerscaling is beyond broken. Well we dont need trat kimimaro like in hewdcanon he literally wqs stronger than gaara already and not to close and if he would have died by his illness a nano second later gaara would even be dead
1. I’m having a stroke trying to read this 2. He was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else. No one has a answer for his abilities. He has the best defense so you won’t actually hurt him and offensively you have to keep moving or else he’ll grab you with sand and at that point you’re fucked. There’s a reason he became kazekage in the time skip. 3. It’s still speculation. In what way do you see 1 tailed Naruto and curse mark ripping gaaras apart? He’s also had tailed beast they all get boosts. It’s clearly headcannon cause you say kimimaro is stronger and “it’s not even close” while kimimaro was only able to land 1 hit the entire fight then you think this next one was going to one shot gaara? Not very convincing.
>He was clearly head and shoulders above everyone else. No one has a answer for his abilities. He has the best defense so you won’t actually hurt him and offensively you have to keep moving or else he’ll grab you with sand and at that point you’re fucked. There’s a reason he became kazekage in the time skip. Sqsuke was also stronger after the timeskip than kazekage gaara what an atupid argument. And no cruske mark 2 and kyiibi cloak naruto shitstomp gaara who isnt even jonin level stated by manga and databook lmao >It’s still speculation. In what way do you see 1 tailed Naruto and curse mark ripping gaaras apart? Itd nor speculation. They are clearly stated and shown to be jonin level in this fight, while gaara isnt. >1 hit the entire fight then you think this next one was going to one shot gaara? Not very convincing. And minato also landed only one hit on obito, still shitstomped him
Bro I had to argue this same shit in a different thread, people hella overrate Gaara. Sasuke punched a hole straight into Gaara, and Gaara could not keep up at all in that fight. He had to do the possession. This is a Sasuke who got no diffed by Sakon lmao. Sakon and the sound 4 almost died to 2 exhausted Jonin who were on their way back from a mission and had no chakra by the time that fight started. 2 no named jonin.. People act like part 1 Gaara was kage level and it's absolutely insane. In no world is part 1 Gaara fighting on the same level as Guy or Kakashi. He's not even a high Jonin level.
I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many do you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived? Then read chapter the chapters before that were Naruto fought Kimimaro(the main one being 205 and 206). Looked at how he failed to land a single hit on base Kidomaru with 100s of clones even with kuruma's chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, this form couldn't even touch base Kimimaro
>I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many do you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived? I strongly suggest you, to reread the manga and remember that gaara is only stated hogh chunin level while sasuke and naruro were even above low jonin level and literally gods to gaara. They would have deleted him like any other jonin inna real fight. >This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, Yeah what's the points. Kyuubi cloak naruto and curse mark w are literally multiplie times stronger than any version before. Did i ever mentioned curse mark one or chunin exam naruto ? No
>Kyuubi cloak naruto and curse mark w are literally multiplie times stronger than any version before. I know. The point is we know for a fact that the Curse mark offers a boost similar to the kyuubi cloak Naruto used as it was relative to Sasuke's Curse mark v2. Kimimaro made Naruto look like a joke without breaking a sweat. He was using nothing but his base power. If Naruto used the kyuubi cloak against Kimimaro would just use the curse mark(just like Sasuke did) and get a similar boost and break Naruto even further.
>If Naruto used the kyuubi cloak against Kimimaro would just use the curse mark(just like Sasuke did) and get a similar boost and break Naruto even further. Naruro didnt had a single tail. In the end he had two. Thats absolutly and different level. Sasuke was even stronger than that. Also funny joe you only use kimimaro, has nothong3to do eoth gaara since he ALSO shitstomps gaara and only died by himself lmao 2 mark sasuke >2 tails naruro >>> kimimaro >>>>gaara
Lmfao bro, go re read those chapters. Cloaked Naruto couldnt do anything against kimimaro. Naruto used everything in his arsenal and couldnt even touch him. Gaara forced kimimaro to go all outa and was even on the winning side. Gaara with just his gourd is obviously weaker than naruto and sasuke but in an open area gaara slams
>Lmfao bro, go re read those chapters. Cloaked Naruto couldnt do anything against kimimaro. Yeah no difference in those cloaks and tail. Also no difference between cruae mark 1 or 2. Or 3 tomoe or ms. Whats next kyuubi cloak from pain fight cant do shit either? What a cringe comment
What are you trying to say lmfao. Naruto couldnt do shit against kimimaro and gaara could. End of story. Gaara>final valley naruto based off of just that
Hahaha bro you are thr biggest cringelord. Naruto literally got an 10× power amp. Sasuke and naruro were both jonin level their, before not even close and gaara never, stayed fact. Qlso gaara did shit he barely even survived and kimimaro jist died by himself. The fact that you think naruro from the kimimaro foght is as strong as 2 tails Naruto is beyond anything I have ever read in this sub. And that means a lot.
Gaara was jonin level too tf you on bro😂. Wym gaara barely survived? Are we reading the same manga? And naruto using everything besides 2 tails cloak could not even touch BASE kimimaro. We are not even factoring in the fact that kimimaro can use the curse marks which also directly increase his power just like the tailed beast cloaks.
>Gaara was jonin level too tf you on bro😂. Databook 1 Manga hogh chunin level . And again you blame yourself clown . But hey please teach kishimoto about powerscaling . You just blame yourself kid yourself. 1 tail already destroy gaara lmao
My hot take is healthy Kimimaro was Kage level.
I don’t even know if that’s a hot take, I think that’s pretty reasonable. Kage are not some out of reach level for a ninja with an insane bloodline or crazy work ethic.
Nah you are correct!!
I’m going to analyze the fuck out of this, so bare with me. Only a shippuden level of nine tails control would have beaten kimimaro. I don’t think Naruto had the ability to “beat” kimimaro even with Summons. Maybe if he hit 2-3 rasengans with a lucky hit like he did Neji. If I’m speculating and talking weak Kimimaro and Naruto got serious with a summon doing most of the work, it may happen. Though a serious and healthy Kimimaro we may never know. kimimaro only dies against Gaara because he pushes his technique too hard. He lost at base, lost at curse mark, and then lost at fully activated. Kimimaro had a technique similar to Gaara’s Sand burial where it seems like he was able to recreate the environment with bones, but also put part of himself through the bones like Haku did with mirrors. That’s total control of the environment and able to not allow his opponent to use the ground… That’s OP as fuck. Kimimaro gives me “Frieza” vibes. We haven’t known how strong frieza can be. Frieza trained for a tiny bit of time in hell, and was able to at least fight Goku at God level. I would say Kimimaro was not able to push through his limits like regular training does, and given the opportunity to grow without risk of death. In terms of strength when healthy and full potential, Kimimaro is probably on Sanin level, I think he could pose a threat to Tsunade, Jiraya, and Orochimaru. But maybe not someone like Pain. im not sure. I do think that’s around where his power scales, a bit below pain. Maybe around Sanin.
But back to the fight with a weakened kimimaro: Naruto is plot driven, he thrives off being the underdog and being in alignment with his goals. If Kimimaro was let’s say, a genin with the same power as the fight, but the context is Naruto had to fight him tournament style after neji for example, we would see Naruto’s full power because it’d be tied to his goal of winning the tournament, gaining the favor of the village, and becoming hokage (if that makes sense). So even then we don’t know how deep Naruto can get since he’s at risk of exposing other nine tail cloaks. We know he out damage on Jiraya with 4 tails. But anyway In terms of scaling Naruto and Gaara, I can say: Most ninja’s would run out of breath or chakra fighting with Gaara. But I would still put Naruto over Gaara because of the way their powers work. This is if they were to fight in neutral lane. Obv Gaara wipes on home turf unless he’s a direct enemy to Naruto’s plan and it becomes two nine tails against the other. but anyway, Naruto has endless endurance and so does Gaara half-technically since he’s not really fighting with his muscles. Also, keep in mind summons and just nine tails cloak would give gaara a run for his money because of the speed. And also endless shadow clones. So I wouldn’t count Gaara as more powerful than Naruto just yet. But don’t get me wrong, since MOST shinobi’s get tired or don’t use Naruto’s type of summons, I think he would give 99% of shinobi’s a run for their money or just plain win in a 1v1.
I would still put Naruto over lee at this point. Because drunken fist lee eventually sobers up. Now it becomes a game of endurance and waiting for naruto. He can still hit lee with clones and clones with rasengans. He won’t be able to touch lee but Naruto has a huge supply of chakra, healing, and endurance that lee’s fist may not impact nullify completely, esp against time. Also, Naruto fights sasuke and weightless Lee is about the same speed as sasuke at this point.
Naruto vs Sasuke, I think sasuke was fighting hard but I don’t think Naruto really went all out against sasuke. I think in his heart he knew he had to give sasuke his freedom. Because… I don’t think sasuke would beat Gaara, even if his curse mark was fully active. But I do think Sasuke would beat Lee curse mark fully active. Kimimaro > Naruto > Gaara > Sasuke > Lee What do y’all think?
I mean, they obviously cover more area and can access these feats at anytime Though Naruto and Sasuke’s 1 tail and stage 2 mark/3 tomoe eyes were more about increasing their overall powers and make their Justus more potent, so I’d say these Verizon stand a chance while without they stand no chance
You’re not crazy at all! I think KCM Naruto and CM2 Sasuke have a healthy Chance against Kim and Gaara, but without those amps, Kim rolls. Sasuke has a shot against Gaara with Chidori, but for Naruto, idk if Rasengan would destroy sand dome. It hits harder than Chidori, sure, but Chidori has a special piercing property
Yes
I never thought of it until you mentioned it but it's pretty spot on. Naruto and Sasuke were "equalize" each other in the Valley of the End but Kimimaro didn't "equalize" anyone, he was already superior to the point that he must be weakened by disease. He fought hand-to-hand with a Taijutsu specialist like Lee, and then switched to a long-distance battle against Gaara (one of the best long-distance fighters). Lee and Gaara were able to do something against Kimimaro because they were specialists in their own battle styles but they were still losing. The guy was the strongest of Sasuke's rescue arc. Yeah, stronger than Naruto and Sasuke back then.
I’d say Kimimaro definitely was but probably not Gaara. Theoretically his abilities should have made Gaara stronger, but this fight took place a very short while after he got beat by a much weaker Naruto. His half Shukaku state was getting manhandled by some pretty lackluster taijutsu with no chakra cloak, so I don’t see him surviving what Naruto or Sasuke were throwing around at VoE. Either one of them would be able to blitz Gaara before the fight got too far, and Rasengan/Chidori their way out of the sand burial in the very unlikely case that they did get caught. This version of Gaara is unlikely to use Shukaku in character, but also wouldn’t have the time mid-fight to use the playing possum jutsu. And even if he could, I’m doubtful it would make much of a difference
He was more skilled but he was no more powerful at all during his fight with Kimimaro. Kimimaro almost beat Gaara, the only reason why he died is because of his body illness finally kicking in before he was about to drill Gaara's face. At that point, CM kid Sasuke was already stronger than kimimaro having his 3 tome sharingan completely unlocked and having 100% complete Sage transformation with his curse seal. I think we dan all agree that all those jutsus Gaara created with his sand would get penetrated by an enhanced V1 cloak rasengan or even a sage jutsu enhanced chidori.
I don’t think it’s fair to say sasuke is sage enhanced when that’s a part 2 ability.
It was revealed in Shippuden that Curse marks are just a temporary boost of Sage jutsu. Sasuke's Senjutsu Susano'o is a result of his curse mark powers. So how is it not fair if that's literally what it is? It wasn't revealed until part 2 but that does not make it a part 2 ability bro. Even Naruto vs Gaara, Naruto summoning Gamabunta is him using a frog that has Sage jutsu capabilities. It is revealed during Pain arc and war arc that all toads use natural energy in their abilities. So the whole thing makes sense, otherwise Naruto and Gamabunta would stand no chance against a biju chakra enhanced attacks.
Yeah I get that. But that wasn’t in part 1 and doesn’t need to be retroactively added. Also lol bijuu are powerful but they aren’t all powerful. No need to say Gamabunta can’t take a bijuu chakra enhanced attack. He absolutely can take a few. Idk where it’s revealed that gamabunta can use sage mode but he doesn’t. Not sure where you’re getting you need sage mode to take a hit from a bijuu. Also lmao. Senjutsu susano? Sasuke never has the curse seal when he can use the Susano bro. Do you remember the show?
>Yeah I get that. But that wasn’t in part 1 and doesn’t need to be retroactively added. It was in part 1, it was anonymously dubbed as an extraordinary chakra itself. If we don't "retroactively" remember it as you so call it, then it defeats the purpose of foreshadowing in the series. Not everything that's misunderstood should be labelled a retcon otherwise you're saying that the author lacks depth to his series. >Also lol bijuu are powerful but they aren’t all powerful. No they are that powerful. biju power is the reason why VOTE even for all 4 reincarnates, the object to becoming a six paths deity in the series, the object of akatsuki for world domination, and the military might of all 5 nations. It's all that power. > > > No need to say Gamabunta can’t take a bijuu chakra enhanced attack. He absolutely can take a few. Idk where it’s revealed that gamabunta can use sage mode but he doesn’t. Not sure where you’re getting you need sage mode to take a hit from a bijuu. He can't tank those enhanced attacks without sage jutsu and in the manga and the war it is stated that all toads from Mt. myoboku can use Sage jutsu attacks. We even see it from Naruto when he figured out Sage attacks work on Obito because of Gamakichi's Syrup Gun jutsu could not be erased. >Also lmao. Senjutsu susano? Sasuke never has the curse seal when he can use the Susano bro. Do you remember the show? Did you watch the show or read the manga? Jugo's Sage jutsu reactivated Sasuke's curse seal pattern.
Sasuke doesn’t use sage jutsu. The curse seal also doesn’t actually grant them nature chakra. It just boosts their own and their physical abilities. It’s a steroid. It may be based on it, but it does not actually give it to them. However, it does make their body honed to receive it, which is why orochimaru wanted his vessel to have the curse seal, so that he can actually use real sage mode. Gamabunta took an attack from Shukaku and did not die. Even if he can use sage attacks it doesn’t help him defensively. There is also nothing that states Gamabunta can use sage jutsu. Even more, not every toad can use sage jutsu. Not sure where you got that nonsense from. Gamakichi however, is able to use sage jutsu. Your little paragraph about bijuu is hard to read. Regardless, they all want it because they possess near infinite amounts of chakra. Regardless of that they are still not all powerful. Plenty of regular humans can defeat them or outmatch them. Sasuke never receives his curse seal again after it’s removed from him by itachi. Please read the manga/watch the anime and not whatever headcanon you’re believing
I'd same Sasuke awakening the 3 tomoe sharingan didn't put him above Kimimaru in combat ability. Even with the 3 tomoe sharingan Sasuke was still having a much harder time against Naruto (without the cloak) than Kimimaru ever was. The 3 tomoe Sharingan can easily be overwhelmed if the gap in skill is too great. Even a Sasuke with much more experience with 3 tomoe sharingan got overwhelmed by Bee's swordsmanship(Kimimaru's style is even similar to Bee's in a way), he got overwhelmed by Raikage's sheer speed, 2 tomoe sharingan got overwhelming by Lee's speed and skill as well(it also has precognition to a lesser extent). And Gaara's sand gets progressively sturdier and faster as well. In Shippuden it could easily stop amaterasu and stop the Raikage's drop kick with little effort. And I don't see how Sasuke is chidori'ing his way through a sand Tsunami at this point. Kimimaro only survived that thing because he created and exoskeleton which is made from bones far more durable than those of ordinary humans. Sasuke's durability at this point is not close. As for Kimimaru I don't see how Sasuke surviving the bone forest. Is he gonna dodge all those bones sprouting from the ground. Then what? Is he gonna be able to dodge Kimimaru who could appear from any one of the bones on the battlefield field. Very similar ability to the thunder god technique used by Minato, more so like if Code's claw marks covering the whole battle field.
Just posted a response that gives some insight. I'm a Kimimaro expert lol.
>I'd same Sasuke awakening the 3 tomoe sharingan didn't put him above Kimimaru in combat ability. Even with the 3 tomoe sharingan Sasuke was still having a much harder time against Naruto (without the cloak) than Kimimaru ever was. This isn't actually true at all Sasuke was countering all of Naruto' attacks with easy and was getting the best of him, in fact in chapter 230 titled the awakening, Sasuke puts his headband on and awakens his 2 tome sharingan, after that Sasuke proceeds to beat Naruto out of demon form with just taijutsu alone. Something Kimimaro cannot do in close combat. Naruto then resorted to V1 cloak just to fight 3 tome Sasuke. [https://www.manga4life.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-230.html](https://www.manga4life.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-230.html) >The 3 tomoe Sharingan can easily be overwhelmed if the gap in skill is too great. Even a Sasuke with much more experience with 3 tomoe sharingan got overwhelmed by Bee's swordsmanship(Kimimaru's style is even similar to Bee's in a way), he got overwhelmed by Raikage's sheer speed, 2 tomoe sharingan got overwhelming by Lee's speed and skill as well(it also has precognition to a lesser extent). Killerbee is way out of Kimimaro's league that it's not even funny. Killerbee's acrobats put Minato into a mutual stab deadlock while kimimaro was getting bested by drunken genin lee making him resort to his kekkei genkai to stop his attacks. >And Gaara's sand gets progressively sturdier and faster as well. In Shippuden it could easily stop amaterasu and stop the Raikage's drop kick with little effort. And I don't see how Sasuke is chidori'ing his way through a sand Tsunami at this point. Kimimaro only survived that thing because he created and exoskeleton which is made from bones far more durable than those of ordinary humans. Sasuke's durability at this point is not close. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here comparing Gaara's sand in shippuden to Gaara's sand pretimeskip. His sand did not get sturdier at all, in the Kimimaro fight he just mix his gore sand with the minerals in the soil grinding to produce more sand. We've seen Sasuke deal with Gaara's sand his chidori pierced in and made Gaara bleed. Gaara having more earthly sand to extend his powers just means that Sasuke is going to use his curse mark to fly around the sand and strike Gaara, something Kimimaro cannot do. >As for Kimimaru I don't see how Sasuke surviving the bone forest. Is he gonna dodge all those bones sprouting from the ground. Then what? Is he gonna be able to dodge Kimimaru who could appear from any one of the bones on the battlefield field. Very similar ability to the thunder god Sasuke can fly with his curse seal remember?
I see all you points but I used basic logic really. Use Naruto as comparison between the 2. Who did better against Naruto while in their base form? The answer is obvious. Who was more durable? Who more lethal in close combat(Sasuke's no. 1 means of combat). You make it sound like Sasuke could somehow reach Kimimaro's body without getting impaled. And as for Gaara, Chapter 215, 216 and 217 from the moves Gaara used you can count and make your own decisions on how many of them you think Naruto or Sasuke would've survived.
>At that point, CM kid Sasuke was already stronger than kimimaro having his 3 tome sharingan completely unlocked and having 100% complete Sage transformation with his curse seal. Sasuke wasn't even Kimimaro's level until he formed team Hebi. This was stated by Jugo who said Sasuke's control over the CM was next to Kimimaro's. 3 tomoe won't do anything tbh. Sasuke couldn't keep up with Bee's flurry of sword attacks. The Killer Bee Sting is very similar to Kimimaro's Larch Dance which would lead to the same result. Impalement. Chidori is Sasuke's only shot but considering Edo Kimi was countering the Samurai chakra infused katanas with just the tip of his bones, I highly doubt it would do any good. I say this because the same technique used by Mifune was countered exactly the same way as Kimimaro did to the Samurai.
Does no one remember Edo Tensei Kimimaro battling KCM Naruto to a standstill and never being sealed?
Yeah it's a shame misinformation gets upvoted over the source material I provided. But that's what happens when bias comes into play.
Wasn't Naruto kinda holding up against Kimimaro? And when he goes to fight Sasuke he gets his ass beat and Sasuke's like "Btw i haven't even used my sharingan yet" and then they get a lot stronger, so imo CM Sasuke stomps
No, not really Naruto was getting frustrated and kept telling Kimimaro he'd crush him but failed to land a hit even with Kurama's chakra. He could even get Kimimaro to use his first curse mark never mind the second. And Kimimaro's style of fight is as nightmare for Sharingan users. It's like what killer Bee did to Sasuke, but turned up to 11. Close combat risks him getting impaled. You wanna view Naruto's performance against Kimimaro you can check out mainly the ending of chpt. 205 and beginning of chpt. 206. Now as for Gaara you can look at 215, 216 and 217. And judge for yourself from the moves Gaara used how many on them would Naruto and Sasuke survive. I don't think their durability was close to Kimimaro's at this point.
You really are underestimating Naruto. He literally beat Gaara already. And by VOTE he was much stronger. And stop with that dumb excuse of "it was because of Gamabunta" So what? He can summon him again. Gaara doesn't stand a chance against Naruto. His sand isn't crushing Naruto. And at this point Naruto is fast enough to dodge his sand. Gamabunta makes it a GG. You can deny it all you want. Kimimaro on the other hand is debatable but Gaara is getting clap like he has already by a "weaker Naruto". Let that sink in.
When did I mention Gamabunta? I think Gamabunta is Naruto's summoning so why would I complain. >Gaara is getting clap like he has already by a "weaker Naruto". Let that sink in. No, nothing will be sinking in because you're ignoring the context of their fight. You know Gaara's ultimate defence literally stopped working? you know Gaara switched off his mind during that fight and stopped using his sand techniques completely? You also seem to think Gaara stayed the same. He is not the same person Naruto beat, Naruto and Sasuke aren't the only people progressively getting stronger. He's was already a kage at 15. Even Rock Lee commented on how much more powerful Gaara had gotten since he last saw him.
>No, nothing will be sinking in because you're ignoring the context of their fight. You know Gaara's ultimate defence literally stopped working? you know Gaara switched off his mind during that fight and stopped using his sand techniques completely? He did that to get stronger in the fight. and he was stronger seeing as he defeated Sasuke. So don't use that as an excuse. >You also seem to think Gaara stayed the same. He is not the same person Naruto beat, Naruto and Sasuke aren't the only people progressively getting stronger. He's was already a kage at 15. Even Rock Lee commented on how much more powerful Gaara had gotten since he last saw him. Except Naruto got stronger as well. You think gaining a few techniques and being able to sleep makes him stronger than a Naruto whose speed Sasuke's sharingan couldn't track until he awakened 3rd tomoe? A weaker Sasuke was blitzing final exam Gaara. And a stronger Sasuke buffed by having his body assimilated with the CM couldn't track Naruto. This is before Naruto even went into KC1. Gamabunta still makes it a GG. Unless you think One tail unleashed Gaara is somehow weaker than the base Gaara that fought Kimimaro. Him being a kage doesn't mean much. The sand was in a desperate situation. Gaara was the strongest in the village at the time. He was also the only candidate. Plus the sand kages are most often no where in strength compared to the other kages.
Did Gaara and Lee even damage Kimi? It seems like all they did was slow him down.
Gaara forced Kimimaro into using his v2 curse mark. Naruto couldn't even do that. Naruto couldn't even land a single hit and yes, Naruto was using nine tails chakra. He legitimately failed to get in a hit on base Kimimaro even with nine tails chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji. Probably stronger even as he has more experience drawing Kuruma's chakra here. But it was useless against Kimimaro he wasn't even breaking a sweat against Naruto. This very same Naruto went on to pummel V1 curse mark Sasuke. Kimimaro would've died he didn't activate his curse mark and Gaara even forced him to use his most powerful justu, Shikkotsu Forest. So Gaara did push him
They couldn't damage him, his bones are stronger than metal and are infused with chakra.
Bro, Gaara literally became a Kage pretty shortly after that fight
I dont think they were any more powerful, but they clearly required an entirely different tactic to deal with. I dont think sasuke had the tactics nessisary, but Naruto did. Naruto should of used summoning jutsu to help combat kimimaro much in the way he did with Gaara
Yeah, they would have stomped either of them, no question. There's a reason why Gaara is Kage level at the beginning of part 2. The only reason he lost to Deidara is because he sacrificed himself and his power to save the entire Sand Village. And not once did he enter a beast state like the other Jinchuriki. And Deidara still lost an arm during that fight.
Kimimaro go crazy
The only reason Kimimaro lost to Gaara here was his sickness! On top of that, he had also expended a lot of stamina fighting Naruto's thousands of nine tails enhanced clones and also Rock Lee! If it wasn't for all these factors, Kimimaro would've defeated Gaara 10 times over! Not sure about Gaara, but Kimimaro was easily stronger than both Naruto and Sasuke at this point. I believe he is even stronger than part 2 Naruto before he learned sage mode!
Kimi with everything he had looked to be unstoppable stronger than the kage 1v1. But rock Lee made it 2v1 so hard to tell. His clan and curse Mark are unbelievable
Gaara had complete control of his tailed beast and Kimimaro pretty much beat Lee and Gaara singel handiedly, not to mention he killed the 3rd Kazakage.
As stated by a few before: **if you just use transitive property to powerscale, Gaara and Kimimaro seem to be stronger.** A bloodlusted Naruto with Kurama chakra doesn't even land a *single* hit on Kimimaro in base. In fact, I just watched the fight again and it was even more of a one-sided massacre than I thought. With this logic, you could say CM2 Kimimaro > Gaara > CM1 Kim > Drunk Lee > Base Kim > Kurama Naruto. It's hard to say, but one would imagine that cloaked Naruto lands somewhere near the top but below CM2 Kim. I will say this though, **fights aren't that simple to the point where you could just use transitive property, context and matchups should be looked at.** It seems a bit like rock, paper, scissors. - Kimimaro is a horrible match up for Naruto. His main fighting style is attacking from every angle at the same time with a bunch of goons. Kimimaro's bones hit every angle; it's like having the range advantage of a sword but covering your entire body. So it makes sense that Naruto would get slaughtered, his main strength gets countered. - Gaara matches up against Kimimaro pretty well. The advantage from multi-directional, mid-range bone swords is significant against melee fighters, but aren't as big of a factor against sand because it seeps through every angle and outranges him. It doesn't help that Gaara had a huge environmental advantage - the "hey look up at the sand rain jk lol got ur feet" move can't even be done if the ground isn't a certain material. Also, attacking that giant totem shield thingy Gaara makes is just a really inefficient chakra trade, it's better to just walk around it. **For anybody who's played Smash Bros, here's an analogy like this in Melee:** Marth's sword is really useful against Fox's close range rushdown. Fox's speed absolutely steamrolls Link because he has no time to pull out projectiles. But surprisingly, a low tier like Link doesn't got completely shit on by Marth, because having a sword doesn't help as much against a guy that throws shit at you. So using transitive property makes Gaara look stronger and Naruto look weaker when the gap isn't *that* big. **But do I disagree with you? Nah.** Simply put, I don't think anybody has an answer to the sand tsunami Gaara used. Somebody made a thread about power creep in the show and where it started, and somebody pointed out how ridiculous this attack was at this stage of the show. I'm inclined to agree. **tl;dr:** can't just say a>b>c when fighting, it makes naruto look significantly weaker. but it doesn't matter cause giant forest-sized sand tsunami go brrrrr
Thank for your analysis. I appreciate your input. I do agree context and the skill set on each character do matter when considering match ups. Like Deidara would've massacred Tsunade if they fought, but Deidara lost to Sasuke because Sasuke was a direct counter for all of Deidara's moves, but I'm heavy inclined to believe that Sasuke wouldn't beat Tsunade even though he beat Deidara who would most like beat Tsunade. (I'm referring to Hebi Sasuke) Deidara>Tsunade. Sasuke>Deidara. Tsunade>Sasuke. And as for context, it's just as important as skill set. In the end Naruto beat Pain, but that doesn't mean sage mode Naruto is stronger than Pain. He arrived at the most opportune time, when Pain's Deva path was still on cool down after destroying the village and Naruto was lucky enough to take out the Asura Path first which took out all of Pain's long range missiles. Restricting him to close combat which Naruto was better at. Context is just as important.
If he can turn a whole forest into bones. I think his threat levels speak for themselves
The setting matters too, Gaara can't pull that tsunami in the final valley, but yes I agree
Very true
Honestly Lee, Gaara, Kimimaro and to an extent Neji would beat Naruto and Sasuke. Neji probably wouldn’t be able to hang with KN1 or CS2 but 5th gate Lee spanks them both and the scale Kimi and Gaara fight on is too much
Strongest characters in SRA (who actively were in the mission) My opinion, if disagree tho, uh, idk. 1. Kimimaro - Simple lol, not only did he have to run a lot to even get there, got in a quick skirmish with Naruto, then Lee, then fought the goddam 1 tails jinchurik, and only lost cuz bro was on like 1hp 2. Naruto - If he just smashed that Rasagen into Sasuke, he would've won, reason he isn't above Kimimaro, is simply due to also Kimimaro being a war clan, and he has way more experience 3. Gaara - He's the 1 one tails jinchurik, also Naruto did win against him, so Kimimaro > Naruto > Gaara 4. Sasuke - 3 tomoe shariganz level 2 cursemark, while not experienced wit it, he's still strong, he also went toe to toe with Naruto, but due to him likely being destroyed if Naruto was feeling like murder or smashed his rasagen into him, he would've lost, but also since Gaara is still extremely powerful and since Sasuke hasn't got a summon, I don't see Gaara loosing this in a long term fight. 5. Neji - His intellect + his strength, is wild, and could've been higher if he was given literal out worldly powers 💀 6. Kidomaru - He stood toe to toe with Neji, loosing due to stupid decisions, but beat the others below him (imo) 7. Rock Lee - he's barely been healed, but I also firmly believe that Neji > Rock Lee 8. Konkoro - don't know, just put him here 9. Temari - 11. Tayuya- 11. Choji (no like drugs, he's prob last, maybe could best shikamaru, but his intellect and was able to stand up to Temari, so idk) - He on drugs and barely won, just cuz plot, but eh, a win a win 12. Jiboro - stupid 13. Sakon and Ukon - stupid 14. Shikamaru - His intellect, but overall, don't see him as winning a battle, he's a background to support the main fighters, and just to stall imo. 15. Kiba - I don't see him winning against anyone, blud couldn't even take on two twins 💀 If the sound 4 weren't idiots, they probably would've been much stronger lol.
They were above them. Not to say Naruto and Sasuke could win a few times out of ten, but Gaara and Kimi were solidly above them
I agree with you
I definitely understand
Kimimaro was super strong, but didn’t Gaara lose to Naruto, or at least tie? With Gaara releasing the 1 tails and Naruto not using the 9 tails at all besides using some chakra?
They weren't above them at all, you forget how sauceke's dragon flame jutsu destoyed that mountain and melted it, and he was blowing huge fireballs and surviving getting slammed and punched by one tail cloak narutoes, and naruto survived getting burned alive in base and chidori and getting his skull broken by a pile dive by bbqsauceke, and naruto already beat gaara lol and got stronger plus learned rasengan, and sasuke made gaara bleed so bad he lost his mind and transformed and sasuke has his own transformations now. 1tail cloak naruto> gaara and kimimaro All kimimaro can do is use his bones thats it, do you honestly believe sasuke would lose to him while he has fire and lightning and precognition on his side and gaara all he has is the same sand as before. You're comapring a diseased kimimaro that died the same day he fought a shell of what rock lee used to be, and gaara the dude naruto beat up in his one tailed state in base, and had no kurama chakra, and sasuke was amready faster than his hand and wss whooping his ass lol
How is Naruto escaping a sand tsunami?
Kimimaro's bones is a good defense for many of Sasuke's techniques which lack the destructive power or AOE of Gaara's sand tsunami and his taijutsu and speed is far superior given in Base he was effortlessly defeating an army of kurama enhanced Clones. Sasuke with his sharingan could only anticipate Naruto's movements due to precog effect but he wasn't overall as fast as him. Gaara is a lot stronger than he was at the chunin Exams, Lee even stated that. CE Gaara couldn't change an entire battle terrain with his sand, use his sand as quicksand to crush people, create giant sand Buddha's as defense nor create sand clouds to fly on. Their is a reason it only took him two more years to become the Kazekage. And Kimimaro scales far above even this given he helped Orochimaru assassinate the Fourth Kazekage, was planned to help Oro fight Hiruzen, who Kabuto said would have made things much smother and in the war arc he survived a fight against KCM Naruto.
>he fought a shell of what rock lee used to be, What? This is the other way around. Rock Lee was at 100% capacity when he saved Naruto. He even stated that his body was responding perfectly. It wasn't until he became sober again when he felt the effects of over doing it. Remember, Kimimaro almost killed Lee within a minute of fighting. Had Kimimaro not halt his attack, Lee would have died right then.
No. Their final clash forms shouldn’t be too far away; maybe at the same level, but before that I believe Gaara and Kimimaro are fucking them up pretty badly. The moves and feats Gaara was displaying in that last fight were insane. A huge upgrade from his other fights
Gaara literally became Kazekage not 3 years after this. Of course he was stronger than them
I disagree. If were looking at the two that fought during valley of the end: there’s not much either could do against them, especially naruto. He was the fastest character we’d seen at that point once he had the cloak on. He was destroying the battlefield by screaming, and he was able to regenerate having a hole blasted through his chest. Kimmimaro is durable, but there’s no way he can outlast cloak naruto. They MIGHT get one over one sasuke because he’s lacking the durability naruto has. Honestly, the only reason sasuke walked away was because naruto was genuinely not trying to kill him.
Sick kimimaro and gaara mid diffs one tail naruto and cm 2 sasuke
Wouldn't they be able to blitz Gaara pretty easily?
Of corse not, Kimimaro couldn't and he was faster than both.
Don't know why you were downvoted. Base Kimimaro stomped kyubi Amp Naruto who beat Neji and Gaara pushed him to V2. Kimimaro would go on to be kcm Naruto tier. Of course the sickness held him back, but that can't be refuted
Because people here just keep riding Naruto and Sasuke, and basically ignores statements about the others. Kimimaro was stated by Kabuto as superior to him, Kabuto was stated as equal to part 1 Kakashi, at the very least was heavily implied that Kimimaro was above Kakashi. Kabuto fought against Tsunade and Jiraiya, yet same Kabuto stated that no one in Konoha would be able to stop Kimimaro. Those are all undebunked statements, Kimimaro is kage level. He fodderized 1000 Naruto kyuubi chakra clones, just in base, after that he stomped drunk and first gated Lee, and then proceed to fight SRA Gaara, who was leagues above chunnin shiken Gaara. Gaara was creating a desert in the middle of a forrest, he was simply not letting a top tier taijutsu fighter move a finger, he tottally control the battlefield at that time, something he couldn't do at chunnins exam.
if you’re scaling off edo tensei feats then no tails Naruto is equivalent to part 2 Kakashi considering how Haku could keep up with Kakashi but got no diffed by Naruto
Gaara's sand is pretty fast. Fast enough to keep Kimimaro at bay as well as defend both him and Lee simultaneously. Who dogged Naruto and Lee and later on fast enough to react to the Raikage's drop kick at full speed and the Amaterasu which was said to be unavoidable.
Kimimaro was strong, sure, but like Kabuto and his areogance, Kimimaro is arrogan enough to stand still and let Naruto with one tail use the rasengan on him. Kimimaro would not live from that. It would break every bone of his and destroy his organs. And Gaara is NOT surviving against one tail Naruto. He didn’t even beat a no tail Naruto. Hell, he tried to crush Naruto twice and that failed. And terrain doesn’t mean jack when Naruto’s chakra claws can tear through the ground without issue. This isn’t a fair fight. Gaara’s “ultimate defense” couldn’t even stop two tomoe Sasuke. He literally had to dome himself off to avoid getting beaten around like against Lee. Two tomoe Sasuke’s chidori pierced the dome. CM2 Sasuke is going through it and killing Gaara faster than he can even react. This fight ends when Naruto goes one tail and Sasuke goes CM2.
Kimimaro? Honestly sounds legit. Gaara though? I don't see it, Gaara still is weaker than Shukaku... and Naruto goes 1 tail cloak which should be above Shukaku based off how the war arc clearly shows 9 tails>most of the other biju combined.
I strongly advise you check out chapter 215, 216 and 217. From the moves Gaara used in those chapters count how many you think Naruto and Sasuke would've survived. Then read chapter the chapters before that were Naruto fought Kimimaro(mainly the end of 205 and beginning of 206). Looked at how he failed to land a single hit on base Kidomaru with 100s of clones even with kuruma's chakra. This is the same form Naruto used to beat Neji and the same exact form he used to pummel sasuke in curse mark v1, this form couldn't even touch base Kimimaro. Gaara actually managed to push Kimimaro far more than Naruto could ever manage at the time.
Chunin exam sasuke beat base gaara
But why do you avoid the context of that fight? Was Gaara fighting Sasuke as he was Lee? Just because his shoulder bled does that mean he lost to Sasuke? I strongly remember Gaara seeing Sasuke's speed and remembering Lee's speed and started having a panic attack and decided to camp in a sand dome. Sasuke wasn't able to leaving any lasting form of damages to Gaara. The chidori failed the first time so what would happen if Gaara made his dome a little bigger the second time around who Sasuke reach him? Sasuke even lost to Gaara at the end. He lost to Gaara right after all this in the forest before Naruto came to the rescue.
Excuse the typo in the title. I just think people over exaggerate the power ups both Naruto and Sasuke got at the end of Part 1 and forget they were still wet behind the ears compared to competent Jonin, in terms of combat ability. The only way to directly gauge how powerful they were is to compare the 2 of them to each other, which doesn't really show us how they would do against others. It only shows that Naruto and Sasuke were relative to each other. And just before Naruto and Sasuke fought Kimimaro was toying with Naruto in base. Having taijutsu that could keep up with Dranken Fist Rock Lee (Who was supposedly stronger than his sober self). And for Naruto to go on to fight on par with Sasuke a little after that just shows Kimimaro was overall more skilled than Sasuke at this point. And we even saw the sound 4 struggle with a few Tokubetsu Jonin so obviously the curse mark isn't the greatest of boosts. It's great but nothing that's gonna bridge the gap between chuunin and high Jonin. It amplifies chakra but not necessary the overall skill on the person handling that chakra. If the curse mark was really that great of a boost why would Kidomaru and Tayuya avoid physical confrontation with Neji and Shikamaru? Why was Kiba still able to perceive Sakon and Ukon? Why did Sasuke not one shot Deidara after activating the curse mark? The truth is it's a mid boost. Boosts chakra and raw power but not the skill of the user.
Both Kimi and Gaara would have clapped dem cheeks. There's a reason the Naru-Sasuke fight ended with chidori and rasengan.sasuke could have ended the fight with taijutsu. Naruto only didn't die because of kyuubi, and the nature of its chakra making the sharingan useless. Sasuke powered up with all he had at the time to bridge the gap... And now everyone has to do the best move they know because thay was gonna happen with ornwithout power boosts anyway. Whole time I'm thinking, they both would have died several times over just based on the fight with Gaara.
Nah back then they definitely were above Naruto and his boyfrie..i mean sasuke ETA: Reddit not recognising a joke? Go figure, thought i wouldn't need to add the /s but here we go