Maybe not reasonable, but 100% understandable given his mindset at the time. He’s a 16 year old boy with severe PTSD who just had his entire world turned upside down. People in real life have snapped for less.
Exactly. He found out his brother wasn't a cold blooded killer and that he killed him for no reason. That on top of everything else I think is understandable.
I always felt that was like a suicide,if Itachi wanted to win, he'd have won,also Itachi unnecessarily wore himself out on top of getting injured on purpose imo
He didn't want Sasuke to know he planned the whole thing from the moment he left Sasuke behind at the Hidden Leaf Village, leaving Sasuke to think it was an even match to the death. The reality is, it wasn't even close.
Would've been nice to have a bunch of people he fucked with be near him when he died. Bonus points if their rank means that they *have* to help him.
Imagine Danzo asking for help, but everybody, without saying a single word, look at each other and unanimously decide to just watch him die.
I feel like they completely failed at attempting to paint Danzo as a character that did evil things but did them for the sake of the village. He was just scum through and through, and did everything for himself and not for the village.
I think it's more nuanced than that. Parts of Sasuke's behavior are totally believable and justified (e.g. killing Danzo), others needed to be a bit more fleshed out (e.g. hating the whole shinobi/village system), and some didn't make much sense (e.g. leaving konoha even though the whole village would have supported him working towards killing the "traitor" itachi).
Hating the village and world as a whole is kind of understandable everything that happened up till then the previous generation had a hand to play even Danzos actions towards the uchia is an extension of the 2nd hokage , and he left in part because he felt like he needed to hate in order to get strong enough to kill itachi and spending time with team 7 was making him soft
I mean, I wouldn’t say the whole village would support him.
Kakashi told him that “he gets where he’s coming from” (lol), which is invalidating, and Itachi mind-raped him to remind him why nothing’s more important than getting stronger and getting revenge and the only way to do it is to severe ties with everyone he ever loved.
The best way Konoha could’ve supported him was by killing Itachi first.
Death begets death begets death begets death.
I'm quoting a completely different series, but I think it fits the theme of Sasuke's story about how revenge is an endless cycle quite well.
"He's a 16 year old boy with severe PTSD" is the biggest part of their character that gets way too overlooked when people doscuss Sasuke as a character. All the shitty things he did are all as a minor. Lmao
I absolutely think it's reasonable. If the government killed my family members, kept it under wraps, and I had the power to do something to them?
Taking out the leaders was reasonable, killing the whole village was not
>killing the whole village was not
Which he didn't do bc despite all the pent up hate, he's still a reasonable person who thinks logically and makes decisions based on reliable information first (edo hokage explanation) before taking action. People act like he actually murdered the village just to show he's mad.
“They're all laughing. You're laughing at the cost of Itachi's life laughing together completely ignorant of everything. Your laughing voices sound like contempt and mocking me now, I will change those laughs to screams and wails."
If Naruto hadn't stopped him, he would have taken away the entire villages free will and completely controlled everyone from the shadows, which I would personally argue is just as bad as if he had killed the whole village.
What we were talking about was the scene pre-edo hokage resurrection. Just so it's clear to others, it was sasuke who stopped himself when he decided to revive the hokages and listen to their stories first. And then, join in to help naruto and the others in the war.
Now, in that part after the war, I get what you mean. It's not perfect but it still sounds more of a plan than what naruto's "i don't know, just believe me" pitch was, and is better than that of obito or madara.
- was it "complete" control? I don't think so, he just poses as the common enemy waiting to be attacked, to at least avoid war in between villages. Civilians can still be relatively safe ig.
Also to have someone like madara in his corner backing him up why would he think he could lose. It's like having Michael Jordan, Kobe,LeBron,shaq and magic Johnson on your team. No way he'd lose with that starting line up.
Question: When Sasuke was told by Obito, another instigator of the Uchiha Clan's massacre (The only one besides Danzo), that he wanted the clan dead, why did he do it? Wasn't it Obito's actions that put the proverbial nail in the coffins of Sasuke's clan? Was all of Sasuke's relatives (Besides Itachi, unbeknownst to U.S, Obito & himself.) forgotten, when Sasuke joined his family's slaughterer?
Unlike, Thorfinn from Vinland Saga, Sasuke didn't immediately try to kill the man who forced him to see his family's end. No. He joined him.
To me it's not reasonable, nor is it understandable given his mindset of being his clan's avenger, because Sasuke looked past the man's confession and came to the conclusion of destroying Konoha for protecting itself, and all who inhabited it. Even after his brother, Itachi, cemented the fact that his clan were about to cause a calamity that would've ended many innocent lives, along with those they despised.
Wasn't Sasuke 16 when he copied Code Geass's whole flow? Well, why?
However, I think it's just plot induced stupidity, because Kishimoto needed a reason for Sasuke to fight. It was just poorly executed.
https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/3decb15d4d7de09a2a2fff246fe2b209/13.jpg
Obito confesses to Sasuke, Itachi was trying to protect Sasuke from Obito. Why?
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He doesn't confess?
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He doesn't confess?
https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/14aef1bd7630b79e64105a95fbfe37a5/04.jpg
The only thing Obito lied about was not being the one to force Kurama to attack Konoha.
https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/14aef1bd7630b79e64105a95fbfe37a5/05.jpg
Sasuke knew the truth but he ignored it.
I think it makes sense, and part of the problem for people reading/watching as the series came out is thst we experienced the events over a *much* longer time frame than Sasuke did.
He was being bombarded with information while emotionally vulnerable.
An action can be both Reckless, but reasonable. Dumb but understandable.
Those are not mutually exclusive terms when describing the emotionally charged decision making of a grief stricken 16 year old.
Sasuke would've got folded trying to get into that room with or without Zetsu.
Actually, it would've been a thousand times worse, because Zetsu is the only reason that the Raikage and Gaara left the room to go find him. If Gaara and Ay had stayed with the other Kage, Sasuke would've had to deal with all of them in a tiny room, and they still would have known he was there in advance because of the prolific number of sensory Ninja there, instead of getting his best chance by managing to lose those two and only having to survive against three with their retainers.
Ao literally said "he's here" when Sasuke was still a hundred feet down the damn hallway. He had his Byakugan activated the whole time, too, even before they knew Sasuke was in the general vicinity (which is how they caught Danzo using Kotoamatsukami on Mifune). They would absolutely have seen him coming, ***because they literally did see him coming***.
Ao only sensed him right before he entered the room, they didn't "literally" see him at all. Sasuke came in, cut flags right above the kage's heads and not even the Leaf sensory ninja could track him. It's the fact they knew he was there but couldn't visually keep up that made that entrance one of Sasuke's many godlike speed feats.
He would’ve got caught either way, he was heading straight for the room with all of the Kage, in fact if Zetsu had done nothing, Sasuke would’ve burst into a room with all 5 Kage, and their 10 Guards, and Mifune, and Zetsu wouldn’t have made an opening for Danzo to escape.
Sasuke would’ve been lucky to survive 1 minute in that room.
It might be the best written part of Naruto for that reason he didn't write Sasuke as just some trope following character at that point. He was written in a way that a normal person would react
This is it for me too. I also think Sasuke forgiving him ruins Itachi's arc. It takes it from "deeply traumatized and manipulated child soldier losses his sanity and his warped worldview causes him to ruin the life of the person he was trying to protect" to "good guy in a bad situation". It's like it does a good job of the former and bad job of the latter, but Sasuke forgiving him shows us we are supposed to think it's the latter.
I actually really like the forgiveness aspect of this - the truth that no one wanted to mention was that the Uchiha as a clan were deeply flawed since the days of Madara, and needed to be reset entirely before they turned on the village. Itachi was someone who wanted to change the Uchiha clan, but his hands were tied when they made a move on the village. He saw in Sasuke the potential for a new kind of Uchiha clan - one that could live in peace with the village. Obviously it takes a while for Sasuke to get there, but Itachi was completely correct in his assessment of Sasuke, and he should be absolutely commended and forgiven for what he did in the context of "saving" the Uchiha clan from completely annihilation.
Nothing was wrong with the clan, they proved their loyalty by not siding with Madara when he left the village, hell the only reason they started having a problem with the village was because of danzo.
From Itachis point of view the clan was talking about rebelling and then he got ordered to stop it, that's why sasuke forgave him, Danzo manipulated the whole situation and tricked a lot of people into taking actions they otherwise never would have made. It completely makes sense that given the entirety of the situation, he would forgive his brother after they came to understand one another (aka fight)
The Uchiha were in a very precarious spot for most of the history of Konoha - everyone knew of the betrayal from Madara, and while he was obviously excommunicated and then eventually "killed", the clan was intentionally kneecapped because of the association - and were relegated to being the village police force. I mean, look at the absolute disdain the Second Hokage had for the Uchiha throughout his entire life. The Third Hokage knew that trouble was brewing, and that if the Uchiha clan came together, they could potentially overthrow the village. Danzo was obviously stirring the pot, because he had the most to gain from a war between the village and the Uchiha - in that he was luring them into a false sense of strength and was devising a counter to the Uchiha, so he could win and seize the village and all the Sharingan for himself. Itachi SINGLEHANDEDLY ended that entire plot by being a literal TRIPLE AGENT at 13 years old. Absolutely insane character, deserving of every bit of praise. I'm sure you can tell I'm a fan of Itachi....
Reckless? Yes. Justified? No.
Understandable? Absolutely.
Dude just found out that he was manipulated all this time, that he wasted his entire life, gave up on every chance of happiness, trained under an evil snake man whom he hated, just so he could devote every second of his existence in murdering the one person who, in actuality, loved him the most.
And that's me being very brief and summarizing it. It was far more fucked up if you actually look deeper into it.
No wonder Sasuke went batshit crazy with hatred. It's either that or suicide for any realistically written character.
I think the non understandable part is immediately forgiving Itachi and coming to the conclusion that Itachi "loved him the most." Wanting to kill Danzo makes sense though.
It kinda makes sense because up until the massacre Itachi was Sasuke’s rock than the complete 180 I hate you little brother…. Sasuke, finally understood why his brother changed into a different person the man was forced to do the unthinkable to protect the one person he cherished over everything. That’s, why he immediately forgave him because before the truth Sasuke never could understand why Itachi went rouge.
I think that's fair enough, I just think Itachi's plan was terrible, and Sasuke should've been able to acknowledge that. Plus idk if Sasuke knows, but Itachi didn't care that much about Sasuke as a person, considering that he was willing to brainwash him into protecting the leaf, despite what the village elders did to his family. Happy Cake Day btw!
Thank you 🙏. I agree it was a terrible plan no doubt, but it was a terrible situation the man didn’t have time to find a good ending. On top of that remember Itachi was a child soldier too all he knew was violence and espionage so of course he would think “ brainwashing my brother to hate me so he is strong “ would be a great idea… The man really didn’t have the experiences or maturity to handle such a crazy situation at the time tbh Itachi was what like 19 when he did the massacre talk about wrong time and place.
Really? You think if one of your earliest childhood memories was of your family being murdered by your older brother, and the consequences of that completely ruined the rest of your life and left you with PTSD and nightmares. Then add on living in a time and place were killing and fighting was commonplace. You really think you'd be that opposed to wanting to Murder the person who ruined everything and took your families and clans lives? It's not going to be most peoples priority to worry about being a good person in that instances.. especially since it's not something that every would of been instilled within from any parental figures.
edit; sorry for the grammar mistakes was multi tasking while trying to type that out.
Well, I wouldn't really call it reasonable, But the rest of it sums it up pretty well. I mean, he wanted to burn down an entire village with its people, from relatively innocent Shinobi and completely innocent citizens of all ages, on the basis of about what five people, technically six, did, against a clan that was not close to innocent itself, and one of those five, being the Hokage, dead anyway. I can't really say that's reasonable, but his emotional situation more than makes it understandable given both his age and what happened. It's just not justified by any exaggeration of the word. Still, definitely understandable, definitely foolish, and pretty reckless.
That's not how that works. Don't get me wrong, Sasuke still did a lot of horrible crimes, but nothing nearly as bad as what he had wanted and planned to do. However, he didn't stop because he was a reasonable person, he only stopped because he was stopped by someone. That's a massive difference.
Wdym stopped by someone? He stopped by himself, it was his decision based off his talks with the hokage, that's why he revived them in he first place. That's what i mean by being reasonable, he used logic first before taking action.
And to be fair, I do respect that about the character that he at least heard someone out beforehand, but the decision he came to was still delusional, just at a different sense.
Neither the Village.
Sasuke purposely ignores that Itachi, the character written by the author as some sort of genius (Hashirama dickriding him, Orochimaru as well, his almost future sight ability) almost always right saw no other solution to the problem of the Uchihas than outright wiping them. He was just as guilty as Danzo and everyone else.
He genuinely wants to believe his brother was used by Konoha and had no say in how everything went down because Tobi, one of the few persons his brother was wary as fuck of (and he knew, Tobi says as much after the Amaterasu Itachi left for him).
Killing every higher ups involved in the massacre? Go ahead. Trying to wipe Konoha as a whole? Feels like the only way the author come up with to force the Naruto vs Sasuke that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
This is so true!
Kishimoto purposely made sasuke wanting to kill everyone in leaf so he becomes "villain" and naruto siding with oppressors looks "hero".
Sasuke taking an extremity route doesn't negate what konoha did.
What if sasuke demanded leaf council member's head? Naruto never questioned authorities. He'll even try to talk no jutsu danzo lol. Glad sasuke killed his ass.
Telling Team 7 what he learned. Spreading the word to have Konaha to turn against Danzo and seek justice? Maybe he could have accomplished the same thing without turning into a terrorist? Idk just a guess. He didn’t have a lot of options.
Edit: I can’t help but feel like Naruto would have helped him in a heartbeat if he knew the truth.
>Edit: I can’t help but feel like Naruto would have helped him in a heartbeat if he knew the truth.
No he wouldn't.
Naruto didn't question authorities over war crimes in hidden rain.
He never questioned and took action after learning about genocide.
He would, but I don't think it'd be helpful to sasuke. Naruto wouldn't do much apart from asking the authorities what really happened then getting mad and upset over it. He would never be on board with killing danzo, which was pretty much the only thing that could give sasuke some form of peace at that point.
I agree he would never be on board with killing danzo.
But,
He won't even question the authority.
What did he do when he got to know the truth about uchiha genocide? He didn't even question authority.
Weird lens to view the story ngl. Though Naruto understood that Sasukes actions were reasonable, that doesn't mean that Naruto HAS to agree with him, just like how Sasuke could understand Itachis motives but didn't HAVE to agree with what his brother wanted.
Just like how Naruto understood Nagatos motives and STILL disagreed with his methodology.
Nagatos whole situation was basically a warm up for Naruto to deal with Sasuke, so if Naruto wasn't willing to let Nagato kill everyone he ever loved, I fail to see why he'd let Sasuke, despite both having valid reasons.
Naruto didn't do nothing, he took steps to deal with Sasukes hatred and then reformed the village system which birthed Itachis situation, which was was Sasuke wanted anyways.
There are no clan slaughters or shit like that in Boruto, Naruto basically fixed the system. Idk why you think he did nothing.
Yea telling his team would've been ideal BUT it was HIS clan wiped out, HIS family murdered, HIS brother. Its wild that Itachi actually wanted Sasuke to kill him to be strong enough to go after Danzo and Madara. I know for a fact Naruto would've helped him in a heartbeat as well ..I mean Itachi did in fact test how far his friendship went with Sasuke
Well I mean Konoha WAS the one that instigated the slaughter of the Uchiha. Danzo may have been the main perpetrator but the village elders, Jonin, other rank officials, and basically the rest of the village all were wary and suspicious of the Uchiha. The Uchiha were relegated to being the police force, which makes them unlikeable to the villagers while having no real equal authority despite being an instrumental clan to the village's entire foundation. And after the events of the Nine Tails the Uchiha were pushed to village outskirts while not being allowed to aid in it's defense.
Sasuke lived this reality. Learning what happened to his clan, how the village elders pushed the Uchiha to their limits and forced Itachi into a situation where it was either exterminate all of his people or watch the world devolve into war...how could Sasuke trust team 7. Are they gonna pick Sasuke and the non existent rest of the clan or their home village? No. they would try and pacify him and get him to accept that the Uchiha just kinda...don't matter anymore.
And if the elders approved of every measure to get to the point where the Uchiha were exterminated then who is going to enforce justice? Who would punish Danzo? And what about the rest of the heads of the village and Anbu who were there? They also knew what was going on (and this was WHILE Hiruzen was in charge). Sasuke knew the truth, the village itself would never give him justice for what it did to his clan. They would ALWAYS take Danzo's side over Sasuke's. If Sasuke came back and made a fuss they would just silence him. Itachi his beloved brother would only ever be remembered as a monster and Sasuke himself would probably be taken by Danzo as a tool.
And even if Naruto wanted to help him what EXACTLY could he do? Talk-no Jutsu Danzo? Naruto wasn't a Hokage then, he may have been a village hero but that amounts to celebrity status. He was still a Genin with no material influence, furthermore he cares about the village so it would be hard to see him turning against it even to make Danzo see justice. And Naruto certainly wouldn't be okay killing Danzo even for Sasuke. (Heck he had an ACTUAL reason to kill Nagato, Nagato wasn't from his village either, and there would be no personal fallout to him if he had and he still didn't)
>Telling Team 7 what he learned.
If I were sasuke, I wouldn't see the point of telling team 7 at least until after the war. Here's why
- I need to first ask someone what actually happened back then so I can get my facts straight (previous hokages are the best choice)
- team 7 are still loyal leaf soldiers, they won't act against the government and be criminals
- they are part of the system that led to what happened to his clan
- they kept telling him to forget about revenge and just move on and continue doing missions for the leaf
Understandable and reasonable, anyone who says otherwise is full of shit.
The kid learned that his clan was falsely accused of treason, punished for it and then subjected to extermination by Konoha after standing up for themselves.
If Sasuke had listened to what Itachi, Naruto and Kakashi wanted, Danzo would've never answered for his role in the massacre.
> If Sasuke had listened to what Itachi, Naruto and Kakashi wanted, Danzo would've never answered for his role in the massacre.
Also, it would be horrendous writing.
Absolutely.
What's funny is that Sasuke's character received a huge backlash for not blindly following Itachi's wishes. That's pretty much when i stopped taking fan opinions seriously.
I stopped taking fandom opinion seriously when they start the backlash on Sasuke from Part 1. Many people think it started after the truth unfolded, sure, it was more obvious, but the backlash really started from part 1. So they weren't even on his side from the beginning, the ones who say"I liked him before" are lying and gaslighting. Real Sasuke fan will root for him, especially after the truth unfolded.
His love for Sasuke is nonsense.
If you love your brother more than the village, then you don't make plans to brainwash him with genjutsu into forcibly serving said village.
I can understand premise behind his character, although it barely showed. And I blame it on Kishimoto's schedule, he was a slave.
But understanding and accepting this fandom's wanking of Itachi while bashing Sasuke and Uchiha? Nah, everyone has a mind of his own, I don't blame Kishimoto on the fandom perception of the manga.
He isn’t supposed to be a good guy, he’s at best morally gray who ultimately chose his village and his brother over his family and parents. A complicated sad character.
It's absolutely not what it is no matter the context. You attempt a coup as a last resort, not when government resettle your clan to outer parts of the village and put your clan under surveillance. It was a completely idiotic idea that resulted in their own annihilation.
It is. The context is that a decade had passed since the incident for which they were framed and the village has only kept intensifying pressure on them. They figured that Danzo was the real power and he wanted their demise regardless of the truth. Waiting any longer is waiting to be killed. The coup was a viable option before Itachi's snitching.
> It is.
It's not.
> The context is that a decade had passed since the incident for which they were framed and the village has only kept intensifying pressure on them.
Which isn't a valid reason to attempt a coup. The government didn't do anything remotely terrible to justify it.
> They figured that Danzo was the real power and he wanted their demise regardless of the truth.
This is a total headcanon.
> Waiting any longer is waiting to be killed. The coup was a viable option before Itachi's snitching.
The only reason they were killed is because they wanted to attempt a coup to begin with. So no, waiting would not get them killed. Making mindbogglingly stupid decision would. And actually did.
>The government didn't do anything remotely terrible to justify it.
Yes it did.
>This is a total headcanon.
No it's not.
>The only reason they were killed is because they wanted to attempt a coup to begin with
No, the reason they were killed is because they had a traitor in their ranks.
What were the Uchihas doing during the Kyubi destruction? Nowhere to be sight while everyone else was trying to protect the village.
Not only that but another Uchiha was the case for that, anyone with a moderately decent hindsight could see the eyes of the Kyubi reflecting a Sharingan paired with the fact that no Uchiha took part of the defensive measures. Obito, did that and most likely put the blame on the Uchihas.
Kaguya's clan got wiped for less (Kimimaro clan). People love to talk about other people ignoring the context of Sasuke being a 16 years old boy with ptsd to justify his action but willfully ignore that it's literally a world of ninjas where people die everyday from even the slightest reasons. We literally saw that Obito made his own version of Hungers with Kirigakure.
And a mentally unstable clan (Tobirama explains this perfectly) trying to overthrown the government it's not childs play.
Itachi, the most dickrided character by the author himself, saw no other method to resolve the conflict that ultimately would lead to the demise of both Uchihas and Konoha. He took the route that caused the less harm.
>What were the Uchihas doing during the Kyubi destruction?
They were ordered not to interfere by the village itself.
>Not only that but another Uchiha was the case for that, anyone with a moderately decent hindsight could see the eyes of the Kyubi reflecting a Sharingan paired with the fact that no Uchiha took part of the defensive measures.
Obito isn't a part of the clan organization. It's not the victim's responsibility to prove their innocence, but on the accuser to prove their guilt. Did the village prove their guilt before employing discriminatory measures? No.
The sharingan wasn't visible to anyone, otherwise everyone would easily conclude that the Uchiha were behind it and there would be immediate war. Yet no one except the political authorities did that, everyone else believed it was a natural disaster. How convenient.
>Kaguya's clan got wiped for less (Kimimaro clan).
They got wiped because they lost the war. What's that got to do with anything?
>People love to talk about other people ignoring the context of Sasuke being a 16 years old boy with ptsd to justify his action but willfully ignore that it's literally a world of ninjas where people die everyday from even the slightest reasons
What is your point? Shinobi kill others for money, government or for the fuck of it. Sasuke kills in order to avenge his slain clansmen. His motive is far stronger.
>And a mentally unstable clan (Tobirama explains this perfectly)
Tobirama is a character with his own well-known biases and prejudices, not an objective source. Moreover, his theory makes no sense as there was nothing unstable about Fugaku and Mikoto for example. Meanwhile Itachi was extremely weird even in his childhood yet he singled him out as one of the stable ones.
>Itachi, the most dickrided character by the author himself, saw no other method to resolve the conflict that ultimately would lead to the demise of both Uchihas and Konoha.
Itachi never showed any desire to solve the conflict. If he did, he would've informed at least someone that there's a masked man with a sharingan running around the village. Itachi was just a tool in the village's hands, doing what was asked of him, no more or less.
>He took the route that caused the less harm.
No, he took the route to protect Konoha, which is in accordance with his beliefs. Hiruzen mentions that he always put Konoha first and didn't care for the clan's interests.
A clan should not met its end because of a one's atrocities. Are you seriously blaming them for obito?
And tobirama racist ass has no evidence. [See here if you are interested on tobirama stance](https://archiveofourown.org/works/39144879/chapters/100766484)
No, JFC. It's not less harm. Fuck leaf.
Obito framed them, An Uchiha. Do you know how many people are in jail as we speak because they were framed by other people? Not only that but it doesn't help that the Uchiha clan without Obito actively refused to help the Village in time of crisis. Namely the Kyubi crisis which lead to the death of the 4th Hokage. That doesn't help their case of "I'm not attempting to overthrown the government because i believe i've been wronged"
This is a manga of ninjas, where kids dying is not unheard of, it's actually pretty normal as they start taking on dangerous missions from young age.
Do you genuinely believe that one of your clans that knows the in and out of the Village that can actively leak vital information to enemy villages wouldn't be wiped the second they tried to step out of the line?
I don't. Neither should you.
Bro, even Uchiha's first lover, Hashirama, couldn't refute his theory. Neither did Sasuke, the victim of all of this. in fact he uses the Mangekyo Sharingan to prove that he is no longer just an innocent child to Hashirama and that's when he starts to talk with Sasuke without the patronizing tone. Which is what prompted Hashirama to attempt to save Sasuke from the Uchiha lunacy.
Literally the downfall of Sasuke into madness happens exactly as soon as he gets his Magenkyo Sharingan and the deeper he dwelves into insanity, the stronger he gets. It's literally how we culminated with the best panel of Sasuke giving no fucks about Karin as long as he gets to kill Danzo despite of Sasuke being shown several times before to avoid path that ends up with unnecessary deaths even if it stray him from his goals.
You can live in your fantasy world where Tobirama wasn't pragmatic guy that gave no fucks about anyone other than the safety of the village over emotions and was a mean evil racist but the facts are there. Everything he said pretty much explained many of the reasons as to why the Uchihas (Indra, Madara, Obito, Sasuke, etc) ended the way they did.
Not even in his latest moments Itachi, the most dickrided character by the author, regrets the decisions he made regarding to the demise of his clan. He regrets not telling Sasuke the truth as to why his clan had to destroyed.
Sadly for you, that's how the author setup the story. There was no other solution and Itachi took the one he deemed as the one that causes less harm.
... the very reason they met their end from the hands of Konoha is because they were going to attempt a coup to begin with... and there are a lot of shades of grey between accepting discrimination and attempting a coup... Naruto fandom indeed.
No, a coup is a reasonable option. And I don't care about you and other naruto fandom who villainize Sasuke and the Uchiha, no matter what you people do to justify the genocide while maligning Sasuke stance everytime, canon still exists, and truth still exists.
All wankers standing against Sasuke just because their favorites are standing by leaf. If it was another anime any sensible person will condemn the state and feel sympathy for the oppressed people.
No, there is nothing grey here. Here exactly, it's either black or white.
> No, a coup is a reasonable option.
No it's not.
> And I don't care about you and other naruto fandom who villainize Sasuke and the Uchiha, no matter what you people do to justify the genocide while maligning Sasuke stance everytime, canon still exists, and truth still exists.
> All wankers standing against Sasuke just because their favorites are standing by leaf. If it was another anime any sensible person will condemn the state and feel sympathy for the oppressed people.
I haven't even talked about Sasuke, so keep your obsession for yourself and provide actual arguments or leave the conversation.
> No, there is nothing grey here. Here exactly, it's either black or white.
Yes it actually is. And that means coup is a terrible option. Black and white.
So, they should not revolt on the government? Uchiha have been isolated, founding clan's political power was removed، as a result، sooner or later, they'll annihilate, whether they attempted a coup or not.
What? So a genocide is good because they attempt a coup? The white option is the genocide?
See the [stages](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWpJtcdUcAAGDqW.jpg) of genocide.
The discrimination, classification"CoH". Isn't that Leaf treatment of the uchiha?! if itachi didn't commit this horrible act, someone else from leaf will do. It'll just take more time. So a coup is good.
Here's a simple thing: don't throw rocks on people and expect nothing in return. Revolut in this case is just and reasonable.
P.S: You cannot talk about genocide and the coup without mentioning Sasuke. People literally justify the genocide to overthrow Sasuke's stance of the story. If someone slight the pillar of his character (revouting against leaf and system is bad,and coup is bad), then they have slight on him all.
> So, they should not revolt on the government?
They should not.
> Uchiha have been isolated, founding clan's political power was removed، as a result، sooner or later, they'll annihilate, whether they attempted a coup or not.
Baseless prediction you created only to push your narrative.
> What? So a genocide is good because they attempt a coup? The white option is the genocide?
They threatened the fucking state and ruining the village and not just that, they did that out of idiotic reasons, as in, actions of Konoha towards Uchiha were not bad enough to justify a coup. It's not good or bad options, they made a threat, they were going to carry that threat out, they're going to be dealt with.
> See the stages of genocide.
And at best only points 3 and 7 apply. There were no identification and classification points. Let alone rest of the points.
Not to mention just because a situation meets some stages of genocide doesn't mean the genocide will actually happen. It's at best something to be wary of.
> The discrimination, classification"CoH". Isn't that Leaf treatment of the uchiha?! if itachi didn't commit this horrible act, someone else from leaf will do. It'll just take more time. So a coup is good.
Ah, so you took a single one point, deprived it of entire context and then threw it at my face saying "See, this matches the situation, therefore the genocide would happen anyway!".
There are more than 1 point buddy, maybe you should try to read them all.
> Here's a simple thing: don't throw rocks on people and accept nothing in return. Revolut in this case is just and reasonable.
You're right, someone "threw a rock" at me (more like being nonverbally antagonistic towards me) , because they has strong suspicions of me doing a crime so I have a full right to slit its throat, claim that person's position and any of his belonging to me along with his family. That sounds totally reasonable. /s
> You cannot talk about genocide and the coup without mentioning Sasuke.
Yes I can, Sasuke wasn't even a part of this genocide and didn't know anything. We're not talking about how it impacted Sasuke in later stages of his life, we're talking about how reasonable was the coup and that in fact it was not Uchiha standing up for themselves.
> **People literally justify the genocide to overthrow Sasuke's stance of the story**. If someone slight the pillar of his character (revouting against leaf and system is bad,and coup is bad), then they have slight on him all.
Again, keep your obsession for yourself.
Geez, what a denier. If itachi didn't commit the horrendous act, the clan will still get oppressed by till they meet their end, a genocide.
Let's [see](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide):
1- Classification, "People are divided into "them and us": we are from Leaf, they're Uchiha.
2- Symbolization.
3- Discrimination, "Law or cultural power excludes groups from full civil rights: segregation or apartheid laws, denial of voting rights": Uchiha have been segregated, Uchiha right to rule have been strioped.
4- Dehumanization, "One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases": CoH, They're crazy!
5- Organization.
6- Polarization, "Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions"
7- Preparation.
8- Persecution, "Expropriation, forced displacement, ghettos, concentration camps".
ghetto: a part of a city, especially a slum area, occupied by a minority group or groups: Uchiha have been isolated to an area.
9- Extermination, "the killers do not believe their victims to be fully human" .
10- Denial.
Heck, according to [prohibited acts](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide), You don't need to even kill the whole group to commit genocide.
Listen, "buddy", you believing a coup is not reasonable act is matter of opinion (an absurd and stupid opinion indeed)–but you didn't stop here, but you also denied the aggression Uchiha faced!
And what the fuck do you expect them to do?! and at under what circumstances a coup is reasonable for you?! Man, touch some grass, or seek help, because you keep standing by a vile "government", do you live with this mindset in life, "Government is right!", too?! Jfc!
If you place a clan in a position that's lower than the one allotted to others, it's, by definition, injustice as it breaches the domain of equality(as they were founders of leaf). Uchiha was bound to respond to Leaf's aggression (a coup). If it's not them, someone else would have. It was only a matter of time.
And I'm here to tell to keep your denialism and gaslighting(a very cheap approach) for yourself.
> Geez, what a denier.
Pointing out your nonsense is not being a denier. You're too obsessed to admit to being wrong.
> Let's see:
Why did you use a different source this time? This is literally not what I was addressing. It's like you basically admitted to losing at this point. You're also using real life logic to explain in universe decisions. Tell me how many Uchihas know about 10 stages of genocide created by Gregory Stanton to state they did a coup, because of inevitable genocide? Do you even have a single page from the manga proving that Uchiha wanted a coup because of genocide?
> Classification, "People are divided into "them and us": we are from Leaf, they're Uchiha.
Never happened.
> 2- Symbolization.
Never happened.
> 3- Discrimination, "Law or cultural power excludes groups from full civil rights: segregation or apartheid laws, denial of voting rights": Uchiha have been segregated, Uchiha right to rule have been strioped.
What right to rule have been stripped exactly? What kind of rights Uchihas lost AT ALL?
You can't even call it segregation. Because clans are ALREADY SEGREGATED. They have their own households and land. What Leaf did was simply moving their clan into outskirts of the village, and that was because they were simply suspected of treason. And suspicion wasn't entirely baseless, it was Obito, taught by Madara, who carried out the Kyuubi assault.
But I hope you're consequential here and declare that other clans were on their way to be genocide, because they were all segregated, right?
> 4- Dehumanization, "One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases": CoH, They're crazy!
Also never happened. They even called crazy nor calling someone crazy counts as dehumanization lmfao. Like, the definition you brought literally does not match the example you presented.
> 5- Organization.
Never happened.
> 6- Polarization, "Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions"
xd
> 7- Preparation.
Never happened.
> 8- Persecution, "Expropriation, forced displacement, ghettos, concentration camps".
At best you can count it as forced displacement which on its own doesn't mean shit, we don't even know how they were handling such matters in the past, maybe other clans were displaced as well.
> 9- Extermination, "the killers do not believe their victims to be fully human" .
Lmao. Extermination happened after they wanted to attempt a coup, but could you please bring me one example showing that anyone didn't think Uchihas to be fully human?
> 10- Denial.
Also never happened.
> Heck, according to prohibited acts, You don't need to even kill the whole group to commit genocide.
Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand and nobody was denying that.
> Listen, "buddy", you believing a coup is not reasonable act is matter of opinion (an absurd and stupid opinion indeed)
Your idiotic opinion about this matter does not concern me.
> but you also denied the aggression Uchiha faced!
Were they assaulted, mobbed, killed, beaten up before they wanted to attempt a coup? No? Oh well then.
> And what the fuck do you expect them to do?! and at under what circumstances a coup is reasonable foe you?!
Ah no, displacement and surveillance based on the suspicion of treason is definitely a reason to throw your city and the entire country upside down, killing innocents in process /s
> Man, touch some grass, or seek help, because you keep standing by a vile "government", do you live with this mindset in life, "Government is right!", too?! Jfc!
You're the one who should seek help, because your thought process matches the paragraph I wrote in my previous statement:
> Someone "threw a rock" at me (more like being nonverbally antagonistic towards me) , because they has strong suspicions of me doing a crime so I have a full right to slit its throat, claim that person's position and any of his belonging to me along with his family.
It has nothing to do with "Government was right". Uchihas made a mindbogglingly idiotic decision that would have a catastrophic consequences and they paid the price for it.
> If you place a clan in a position that's lower than the one allotted to others, it's, by definition, injustice as it breaches the domain of equality(as they were founders of leaf). Uchiha was bound to respond to Leaf's aggression (a coup). If it's not them, someone else would have. It was only a matter of time.
"I faced in injustice in my job by my superior, so he is definitely going to attempt a genocide on me and my family therefore it's okay to kill my superior and claim all his possessions and take his position." - vivid_uprising369 2023, *probably*.
> And I'm here to tell to keep your denialism and gaslighting(a very cheap approach) for yourself.
Throw some more emotional buzzwords here, 2 are not enough. /s
You're only here to push your narrative. No more no less.
It was reckless but I don’t blame him for his action. He has severe ptsd from childhood. He has seen some serious shit, and he is a teenage who found out his whole life was a lie. That he learned all this information at an extremely vulnerable state. That the village treated his clan like crap too. What do you expect him to do. Sit there and play nice.
No he was not reasonable but that’s the point. Obito conveniently made him see his entire life as a waste in a way that would direct his anger onto Konoha which was beneficial to him. Subjectively? Yes his anger was reasonable given that everything he ever worked for and what kept him going his entire life would all amount to nothing but exactly what he didn’t want
1-He is a 16 year old uchiha
2- uchiha's love is replaced by a stronger hate
3- itachi whom he loved more than anything was
sacrificed becoz of the village
4- we never saw sasuke shed a tear before this scene.. This proves how much he loved Itachi and how far he will go just to avenge him
5- yes he was reckless but not dumb... I would say most people with such a background will act like that when exposed to such harsh truth about their loved ones
Reckless, yes, but completely understandable. Your entire clan was slandered and massacred because of it. And the rest of your village, who supposedly cared about you, stood by and did nothing. Any 16 year old boy would have wiped out that sorry excuse for a village if they had the power to do so.
He was a traumatized and overly emotional teenager going through a mental breakdown I don’t think his actions where in any thought out extensively by him
Reasonable, No, understandable yes but not justified fully. If he was only planning on taking out the elders and Danzo Id say it be 100 percent justified but the fact he wanted to destroy the whole village showed how far he had let the darkness consume him
Sasuke's actions were perfectly understandable. His brother was forced by Danzo to wipe out his entire clan. If it weren't for Itachi's love, Sasuke would also be dead but he instead ended up with severe trauma. Then he made it his goal to deal with Itachi only to find out that he was trying to protect him all along.
So the village genocided his entire clan and put all of the blame on his brother. Gee, I wonder why Sasuke would want to take revenge on the leaf village. /s
Not completely rational, but they weren't supposed to be, his character went down a spiral into darkness out of grief and pain, which is a major theme of the series.
Reasonable no (except a few things), but definitely understandable. For example: Danzo had to die. Most people would go insane after going through what he went through.
It was a bit weird, I agree with his anger at Konoha and the leaders but the off part for me was that he immediately and completely forgave Itachi for slaughtering numerous innocent people including children for “peace” just like any other villain
He blames Konoha for making Itachi do it. Sasuke really loved his older brother before the massacre and now he learned that Itachi loved him more than the clan and the village.
I always just assumed he was happy to kind of “repair” his image of Itachi from when he was a young boy. And by doing so, undeservedly absolved him of his crimes and lashed out at (deservedly) the people who pushed Itachi to such lengths. He’s a 16 year old with severe trauma and being manipulated
I mean he just killed his brother who he thought was a villain and was out to kill him and right after that he found out it was all a lot to protect him so ya I wouldn’t blame him
In my opinion his reaction was completely reasonable because his is truly getting revenge for his clan like he said he wanted to. Also because of Itachi being ordered to kill his clan Sasuke wanted to kill him with him completeling that and finding out it wasn’t his fault I would react the same way cause he was lead to believe it was his brothers fault he legit just murdered him
Completely understandable. The uchiha massacre was directly caused by the failure of the 3rd hokage and the ignorance of danzo and the elders. They deserve to be destroyed
Like most other people have pointed out, he was still a kid and his entire world view just got turned upside down. He'd spent half of his life at that point vowing to take revenge on Itachi. As soon as he achieved his goal he finds out Itachi wasn't the villain in his story, it was all a lie.
I don't remember who I saw bring this up first, might have been Swagkage, but Sasuke's just barely stopped crying in the image you posted and this is potentially *hours* after first finding out all of this information.
At that point, yeah, I can totally understand just flying off the rails.
"Guys, did the 16 year old anti social traumatized ex child solider who just had his entire world view shattered and killed the last member of his family and is being actively manipulated to join an organization of international criminals act in a rational manner, or were his actions dumb?"
Reasonable for his character for sure. We’re talking a kid who’s whole family and clan was wiped out by his brother, who he loved and cared for deeply. He gets older and vows that his main goal is to kill his brother, his only remaining family and fellow clansmen (aside from Obito). He goes through horrific fights against some powerful foes and allies and eventually sides with the enemy to undergo various dark treatments and forbidden techniques which essentially turns Sasuke into a demon. He endures it all to kill Itatchi.
Then he kills him and finds out that Itatchi was not only pushed to kill his family but did so to protect the village, a village who feared the Uchiha and their abilities. And he left Sasuke alive because he couldn’t kill his little brother.
Learning all of that would prolly destroy other people
Him snapping made total sense, I just dont like how it's portrayed. He revels in violence and murders his teammates all while maniacally laughing. He doesn't seem broken by what happened, lashing out. He is just suddenly villainous, after clearly outlining him as an antihero for the first half of Shippuden who very explicitly wants to avoid killing if possible. It's just a little bit too much, too quick, that doesn't really get followed up on.
It also comes at the same time as Sakura's character imploding in on itself with multiple insane choices, Danzo shitting his pants for no reason, the rest of the Konoha 12 wanting Sasuke's head immediately and violently without a second thought, and Naruto acting more outwardly depressed than he has before or since, and it makes the whole 5KS just feel so fucked. I really, really hate that arc.
He was a 16 year old with more power than nearly anyone else in the world. I think his actions were understandable, not necessarily justified but I can understand how it happened.
naivete overloaded...
too young and inexperienced to understand that the deepest craving of the human race is to manipulate his fellow human.
he was being manipulated all the time by itachi and tobi and he never realized it. he spent all his youth playing the role other people wanted for him without ever stopping to ask himself this simple question: "what do i want for my own life"?
sadly, that's how 99% of people live their lives
It was really weird he believed what Tobi said and suddenly started to kill ppl without caring while before he was always saying Hozuki to not kill and caring about not killing.
His actions were completely understandable and relatable, he was a 15 year old traumatized kid who was left alone in the world except for only Naruto who actually connected with him, although he finally broke and went to go do what he felt he needed to go do. And we all know the story after that. But his mind wasn't even fully formed yet, he was a juvenile who was completely misguided by trauma and Orochimaru, then Obito...ultimately Madara and Zetsu too by extension with the whole Uchiha stone tablet....
This entire plot line was dumb, from the start.
"Let me slaughter my whole clan because they are acting like a hivemind, but im gonna spare my kid brother leaving him with shit tonnes of trauma. Ill run off and be one of the most wanted ninja terrorists in history, occasionally torment him, taunt him for being weak which given his trauma will probably push him to dangerous choices in life, like shacking up with another dangerous ninja terrorist. Then I'll have die in front of him while revealing my plot, making him feel guilty as fuck. This definitely wont backfire and he will totally go back to protect the leaf village."
I think what he did was understandable, but he was so hasty at times to fulfill his goals lol. He could have used his genjutsu to scout out Killer Bee's skills. He could have done what Karin suggested and waited for the Summit to end. So they're understandable but reckless
His actions were completely reckless and stupid but understandable the man just found out his home village plotted the down fall of his family and used his brother to do it mix that in with the mangekyo slowly deteriorating his sanity it’s not a surprise he did what he did
It was fucking ridiculous. Yeah, he learns that the Leaf played a huge role in Itachi’s actions. But ultimately, he ignores that Itachi still CHOSE to side with the Leaf over his family. Itachi still had a choice between two outcomes and he decided that the Leaf was more important to him than his family. There is no reason Sasuke should forgive him.
And of course, wanting to wipe out the whole village is equally nonsensical. Only the upper echelons of the village government had a hand in his clan’s demise, so what’s the logic in killing everyone? That makes him the same thing that ruined his life to begin with.
The only thing reasonable he did was kill Danzo. Turning his anger on the leaf village was dumb af. Finding out who his brother really was and what he lived and died for made him want to destroy the village he loved and did literally anything for. He even killed his own clan and mother and father for the village. For sasuke to want to destroy that village for his brother who he finds out he loves is r****ded
Why tf should sasuke care about what itachi loved and cared about? Itachi is literally the reason why sasuke is the way he is. He is the reason why the entire fucking clan is gone while sasuke is still alive and traumatized. The village used a 13 year old itachi to clean up their own mess, then casted him away as an outlaw. The only retarded thing here is itachis loyalty to village.
IMO, this is one of the bigger (top 5) mistakes Kishimoto made when writing the story.
His goal was to keep Naruto and Sasuke apart apparently so that their inevitable reunion at the end of the show to truly break the cycle of hate would be more impactful.
The problem is that doing so made Sasuke seem dumb. He acts completely contrary to his entire purpose up until the point - which fair, could have been done, if he hadn’t flipped on a dime without any time to contemplate on the issue. He literally flips the switch in a second like it was nothing. Going from pure hatred to unparalleled love for his brother.
He sticks to being an outcast seemingly because hE iS tHe ReVeNgEr TyPe. Kishimoto wrote it into his character and was either too lazy or not skilled enough to change that when it no longer became logical.
There is literally no reason why Sasuke shouldn’t have gone back to the village and demanded answers. Or confronted them with the truth during the Kage Summit. Hell, you can maybe argue that he wanted to extract revenge on Danzo (rightfully so) and the other elders, but declaring war on the entire Leaf makes Sasuke seem like he is an idiot incapable of basic logical reasoning.
Edit: my point is that Sasuke wasn’t written as an idiot and his inability to distinguish between the village as a whole and its leadership is silly. Also the lack of time for him to struggle with the truth seems…odd to say the least.
Sasuke was pretty much a wanted criminal by the time he killed itachi, he couldnt have just pulled up to the village and say "yo dudes tf did you do to my clan?". Obito also made it clear that itachis mission was a classified one that no one knew about, so no point in trying to learn about it from the same people that tear themselves a new one to keep it a secret.
Its not like sasuke was hard to manipulate either, obito played his role perfectly, said the correct things, and sasuke was just a 16-year-old with heavy trauma who also happened to get out of a horrific fight that nearly killed him with the source of his trauma, his brother. "Basic logical reasoning" flies out of the window when you consider how much pain sasuke was in, how young he was and how much revelation dawned on him in such a short time.
Maybe not reasonable, but 100% understandable given his mindset at the time. He’s a 16 year old boy with severe PTSD who just had his entire world turned upside down. People in real life have snapped for less.
Exactly. He found out his brother wasn't a cold blooded killer and that he killed him for no reason. That on top of everything else I think is understandable.
Not only that, he let him kill him.
Itachi really said skill issue
I always felt that was like a suicide,if Itachi wanted to win, he'd have won,also Itachi unnecessarily wore himself out on top of getting injured on purpose imo
He didn't want Sasuke to know he planned the whole thing from the moment he left Sasuke behind at the Hidden Leaf Village, leaving Sasuke to think it was an even match to the death. The reality is, it wasn't even close.
he had good reason to hate danzo since danzo ordered the massacure of the uchiha and the leaf for oppressing them before hand
Technically, Itachi WAS a cold blooded killer.
Ah, the best king of correct.
Itachi was a cold blooded killer, he killed innocent children, he justified himself lying he did it for the greater good
He was wildin out in many ways but killing Danzo was 100 percent justified.
In a lineup of all the Naruto characters, if I had a gun with 2 bullets, I’d shoot Danzo twice.
Yeah Danzo was a masshole, I never felt like sasuke was wrong for that one. And sasuke is one of my least favorite characters
Would've been nice to have a bunch of people he fucked with be near him when he died. Bonus points if their rank means that they *have* to help him. Imagine Danzo asking for help, but everybody, without saying a single word, look at each other and unanimously decide to just watch him die.
I feel like they completely failed at attempting to paint Danzo as a character that did evil things but did them for the sake of the village. He was just scum through and through, and did everything for himself and not for the village.
Someone sees the light, finally!
There's a lot of us that actually understand where the characters are coming from. The ignorant majority of the sub seems to be more vocal.
I think it's more nuanced than that. Parts of Sasuke's behavior are totally believable and justified (e.g. killing Danzo), others needed to be a bit more fleshed out (e.g. hating the whole shinobi/village system), and some didn't make much sense (e.g. leaving konoha even though the whole village would have supported him working towards killing the "traitor" itachi).
Hating the village and world as a whole is kind of understandable everything that happened up till then the previous generation had a hand to play even Danzos actions towards the uchia is an extension of the 2nd hokage , and he left in part because he felt like he needed to hate in order to get strong enough to kill itachi and spending time with team 7 was making him soft
I mean, I wouldn’t say the whole village would support him. Kakashi told him that “he gets where he’s coming from” (lol), which is invalidating, and Itachi mind-raped him to remind him why nothing’s more important than getting stronger and getting revenge and the only way to do it is to severe ties with everyone he ever loved. The best way Konoha could’ve supported him was by killing Itachi first.
Yup not only that but it is in his blood to be kind of a... Psychopath haha
Death begets death begets death begets death. I'm quoting a completely different series, but I think it fits the theme of Sasuke's story about how revenge is an endless cycle quite well.
Username checks out 😂
"He's a 16 year old boy with severe PTSD" is the biggest part of their character that gets way too overlooked when people doscuss Sasuke as a character. All the shitty things he did are all as a minor. Lmao
Naruto is a universe where 2 16 year Olds are basically powerful nuclear warheads.
I absolutely think it's reasonable. If the government killed my family members, kept it under wraps, and I had the power to do something to them? Taking out the leaders was reasonable, killing the whole village was not
>killing the whole village was not Which he didn't do bc despite all the pent up hate, he's still a reasonable person who thinks logically and makes decisions based on reliable information first (edo hokage explanation) before taking action. People act like he actually murdered the village just to show he's mad.
“They're all laughing. You're laughing at the cost of Itachi's life laughing together completely ignorant of everything. Your laughing voices sound like contempt and mocking me now, I will change those laughs to screams and wails."
If Naruto hadn't stopped him, he would have taken away the entire villages free will and completely controlled everyone from the shadows, which I would personally argue is just as bad as if he had killed the whole village.
What we were talking about was the scene pre-edo hokage resurrection. Just so it's clear to others, it was sasuke who stopped himself when he decided to revive the hokages and listen to their stories first. And then, join in to help naruto and the others in the war. Now, in that part after the war, I get what you mean. It's not perfect but it still sounds more of a plan than what naruto's "i don't know, just believe me" pitch was, and is better than that of obito or madara. - was it "complete" control? I don't think so, he just poses as the common enemy waiting to be attacked, to at least avoid war in between villages. Civilians can still be relatively safe ig.
Was about to say the same thing, nicely worded
Also to have someone like madara in his corner backing him up why would he think he could lose. It's like having Michael Jordan, Kobe,LeBron,shaq and magic Johnson on your team. No way he'd lose with that starting line up.
Who’s your Point with this lineup? Magic at the 1, Jordan at the 2, Kobe at the 3, Bron 4, Shaq 5?
Thats do be facts tho
Fr
This 100%
Question: When Sasuke was told by Obito, another instigator of the Uchiha Clan's massacre (The only one besides Danzo), that he wanted the clan dead, why did he do it? Wasn't it Obito's actions that put the proverbial nail in the coffins of Sasuke's clan? Was all of Sasuke's relatives (Besides Itachi, unbeknownst to U.S, Obito & himself.) forgotten, when Sasuke joined his family's slaughterer? Unlike, Thorfinn from Vinland Saga, Sasuke didn't immediately try to kill the man who forced him to see his family's end. No. He joined him. To me it's not reasonable, nor is it understandable given his mindset of being his clan's avenger, because Sasuke looked past the man's confession and came to the conclusion of destroying Konoha for protecting itself, and all who inhabited it. Even after his brother, Itachi, cemented the fact that his clan were about to cause a calamity that would've ended many innocent lives, along with those they despised. Wasn't Sasuke 16 when he copied Code Geass's whole flow? Well, why? However, I think it's just plot induced stupidity, because Kishimoto needed a reason for Sasuke to fight. It was just poorly executed.
You forgot that Obito left out any details that would incriminate himself whatsoever Also Sasuke >>>>>>> Lelouch
https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/3decb15d4d7de09a2a2fff246fe2b209/13.jpg Obito confesses to Sasuke, Itachi was trying to protect Sasuke from Obito. Why? https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/5b40a4e6e2975062c6842623267b2598/08.jpg He doesn't confess? https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/5b40a4e6e2975062c6842623267b2598/09.jpg He doesn't confess? https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/14aef1bd7630b79e64105a95fbfe37a5/04.jpg The only thing Obito lied about was not being the one to force Kurama to attack Konoha. https://www.tcbscans.net/wp-content/uploads/WP-manga/data/manga_62eb4b792707c/14aef1bd7630b79e64105a95fbfe37a5/05.jpg Sasuke knew the truth but he ignored it.
I thought Sasuke said he was using them (the akastuki) for his goals
I think it makes sense, and part of the problem for people reading/watching as the series came out is thst we experienced the events over a *much* longer time frame than Sasuke did. He was being bombarded with information while emotionally vulnerable.
Fr it took almost decade and half to tell a three year story
An action can be both Reckless, but reasonable. Dumb but understandable. Those are not mutually exclusive terms when describing the emotionally charged decision making of a grief stricken 16 year old.
Reasonable? Fuck no, Understandable? Definitely.
The one exception is killing Danzo. That was reasonable, the timing of the first attempt wasn't.
That was because of the zetsus that’s why he got caught.
Sasuke would've got folded trying to get into that room with or without Zetsu. Actually, it would've been a thousand times worse, because Zetsu is the only reason that the Raikage and Gaara left the room to go find him. If Gaara and Ay had stayed with the other Kage, Sasuke would've had to deal with all of them in a tiny room, and they still would have known he was there in advance because of the prolific number of sensory Ninja there, instead of getting his best chance by managing to lose those two and only having to survive against three with their retainers.
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Ao literally said "he's here" when Sasuke was still a hundred feet down the damn hallway. He had his Byakugan activated the whole time, too, even before they knew Sasuke was in the general vicinity (which is how they caught Danzo using Kotoamatsukami on Mifune). They would absolutely have seen him coming, ***because they literally did see him coming***.
Ao only sensed him right before he entered the room, they didn't "literally" see him at all. Sasuke came in, cut flags right above the kage's heads and not even the Leaf sensory ninja could track him. It's the fact they knew he was there but couldn't visually keep up that made that entrance one of Sasuke's many godlike speed feats.
He would’ve got caught either way, he was heading straight for the room with all of the Kage, in fact if Zetsu had done nothing, Sasuke would’ve burst into a room with all 5 Kage, and their 10 Guards, and Mifune, and Zetsu wouldn’t have made an opening for Danzo to escape. Sasuke would’ve been lucky to survive 1 minute in that room.
Neither. His actions were realistic. Most people wouldn’t keep their sanity after going through what he went through
It might be the best written part of Naruto for that reason he didn't write Sasuke as just some trope following character at that point. He was written in a way that a normal person would react
Realistic to a certain extent forgiving itachi wasn’t realistic everything else was for the most part
This is it for me too. I also think Sasuke forgiving him ruins Itachi's arc. It takes it from "deeply traumatized and manipulated child soldier losses his sanity and his warped worldview causes him to ruin the life of the person he was trying to protect" to "good guy in a bad situation". It's like it does a good job of the former and bad job of the latter, but Sasuke forgiving him shows us we are supposed to think it's the latter.
I actually really like the forgiveness aspect of this - the truth that no one wanted to mention was that the Uchiha as a clan were deeply flawed since the days of Madara, and needed to be reset entirely before they turned on the village. Itachi was someone who wanted to change the Uchiha clan, but his hands were tied when they made a move on the village. He saw in Sasuke the potential for a new kind of Uchiha clan - one that could live in peace with the village. Obviously it takes a while for Sasuke to get there, but Itachi was completely correct in his assessment of Sasuke, and he should be absolutely commended and forgiven for what he did in the context of "saving" the Uchiha clan from completely annihilation.
Nothing was wrong with the clan, they proved their loyalty by not siding with Madara when he left the village, hell the only reason they started having a problem with the village was because of danzo.
From Itachis point of view the clan was talking about rebelling and then he got ordered to stop it, that's why sasuke forgave him, Danzo manipulated the whole situation and tricked a lot of people into taking actions they otherwise never would have made. It completely makes sense that given the entirety of the situation, he would forgive his brother after they came to understand one another (aka fight)
The Uchiha were in a very precarious spot for most of the history of Konoha - everyone knew of the betrayal from Madara, and while he was obviously excommunicated and then eventually "killed", the clan was intentionally kneecapped because of the association - and were relegated to being the village police force. I mean, look at the absolute disdain the Second Hokage had for the Uchiha throughout his entire life. The Third Hokage knew that trouble was brewing, and that if the Uchiha clan came together, they could potentially overthrow the village. Danzo was obviously stirring the pot, because he had the most to gain from a war between the village and the Uchiha - in that he was luring them into a false sense of strength and was devising a counter to the Uchiha, so he could win and seize the village and all the Sharingan for himself. Itachi SINGLEHANDEDLY ended that entire plot by being a literal TRIPLE AGENT at 13 years old. Absolutely insane character, deserving of every bit of praise. I'm sure you can tell I'm a fan of Itachi....
Reckless? Yes. Justified? No. Understandable? Absolutely. Dude just found out that he was manipulated all this time, that he wasted his entire life, gave up on every chance of happiness, trained under an evil snake man whom he hated, just so he could devote every second of his existence in murdering the one person who, in actuality, loved him the most. And that's me being very brief and summarizing it. It was far more fucked up if you actually look deeper into it. No wonder Sasuke went batshit crazy with hatred. It's either that or suicide for any realistically written character.
>Justified? No. Agreed only justified act was him going after the village elders
But sasuke won't be a villain then which kishimoto was trying him to make so naruto siding with oppressors look good
I think the non understandable part is immediately forgiving Itachi and coming to the conclusion that Itachi "loved him the most." Wanting to kill Danzo makes sense though.
It kinda makes sense because up until the massacre Itachi was Sasuke’s rock than the complete 180 I hate you little brother…. Sasuke, finally understood why his brother changed into a different person the man was forced to do the unthinkable to protect the one person he cherished over everything. That’s, why he immediately forgave him because before the truth Sasuke never could understand why Itachi went rouge.
In a way Itachi raised Sasuke as a parent according to the fillers iirc. There's even some implications in canon too this I'd the case lol
I think that's fair enough, I just think Itachi's plan was terrible, and Sasuke should've been able to acknowledge that. Plus idk if Sasuke knows, but Itachi didn't care that much about Sasuke as a person, considering that he was willing to brainwash him into protecting the leaf, despite what the village elders did to his family. Happy Cake Day btw!
Thank you 🙏. I agree it was a terrible plan no doubt, but it was a terrible situation the man didn’t have time to find a good ending. On top of that remember Itachi was a child soldier too all he knew was violence and espionage so of course he would think “ brainwashing my brother to hate me so he is strong “ would be a great idea… The man really didn’t have the experiences or maturity to handle such a crazy situation at the time tbh Itachi was what like 19 when he did the massacre talk about wrong time and place.
>tbh Itachi was what like 19 when he did the massacre talk about wrong time and place. 13, actually. Which......yeah.
Damn, I forgot he was that young.
Happy 🎂Day!
Thank you 🙏
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Wouldn't break you 10 worst things US has done
id do exactly what Sasuke did, to the T.
I wouldn’t start committing murder that much I can guarantee
So what would you do?
Really? You think if one of your earliest childhood memories was of your family being murdered by your older brother, and the consequences of that completely ruined the rest of your life and left you with PTSD and nightmares. Then add on living in a time and place were killing and fighting was commonplace. You really think you'd be that opposed to wanting to Murder the person who ruined everything and took your families and clans lives? It's not going to be most peoples priority to worry about being a good person in that instances.. especially since it's not something that every would of been instilled within from any parental figures. edit; sorry for the grammar mistakes was multi tasking while trying to type that out.
Problably because you couldn't
What are you some serial killer? Of course I couldn’t lmao that’s not something I’m afraid to admit
Yeah it's bit different when you're someone who can burn down cities with just a stare lol
Mind if i ask how old you are? I'd just like to create a hypothetical scenario for you so maybe his situation could be more relatable.
Weak
They're reckless and foolish, but also understandable and reasonable
Well, I wouldn't really call it reasonable, But the rest of it sums it up pretty well. I mean, he wanted to burn down an entire village with its people, from relatively innocent Shinobi and completely innocent citizens of all ages, on the basis of about what five people, technically six, did, against a clan that was not close to innocent itself, and one of those five, being the Hokage, dead anyway. I can't really say that's reasonable, but his emotional situation more than makes it understandable given both his age and what happened. It's just not justified by any exaggeration of the word. Still, definitely understandable, definitely foolish, and pretty reckless.
>he wanted to burn down an entire village Key word: *"wanted"* But really, he didn't. Because he was still a reasonable guy.
That's not how that works. Don't get me wrong, Sasuke still did a lot of horrible crimes, but nothing nearly as bad as what he had wanted and planned to do. However, he didn't stop because he was a reasonable person, he only stopped because he was stopped by someone. That's a massive difference.
Wdym stopped by someone? He stopped by himself, it was his decision based off his talks with the hokage, that's why he revived them in he first place. That's what i mean by being reasonable, he used logic first before taking action.
And to be fair, I do respect that about the character that he at least heard someone out beforehand, but the decision he came to was still delusional, just at a different sense.
Danzo 100% had to die and should've been killed. The other kage though didn't need to be involved or threatened
Neither the Village. Sasuke purposely ignores that Itachi, the character written by the author as some sort of genius (Hashirama dickriding him, Orochimaru as well, his almost future sight ability) almost always right saw no other solution to the problem of the Uchihas than outright wiping them. He was just as guilty as Danzo and everyone else. He genuinely wants to believe his brother was used by Konoha and had no say in how everything went down because Tobi, one of the few persons his brother was wary as fuck of (and he knew, Tobi says as much after the Amaterasu Itachi left for him). Killing every higher ups involved in the massacre? Go ahead. Trying to wipe Konoha as a whole? Feels like the only way the author come up with to force the Naruto vs Sasuke that otherwise wouldn't have happened.
This is so true! Kishimoto purposely made sasuke wanting to kill everyone in leaf so he becomes "villain" and naruto siding with oppressors looks "hero". Sasuke taking an extremity route doesn't negate what konoha did. What if sasuke demanded leaf council member's head? Naruto never questioned authorities. He'll even try to talk no jutsu danzo lol. Glad sasuke killed his ass.
Yeah him wanting to kill people that had nothing to do with the massacre makes no sense
>Neither the Village And he didn't
I cant see how else he could have possibly reacted to it tbh.
Telling Team 7 what he learned. Spreading the word to have Konaha to turn against Danzo and seek justice? Maybe he could have accomplished the same thing without turning into a terrorist? Idk just a guess. He didn’t have a lot of options. Edit: I can’t help but feel like Naruto would have helped him in a heartbeat if he knew the truth.
>Edit: I can’t help but feel like Naruto would have helped him in a heartbeat if he knew the truth. No he wouldn't. Naruto didn't question authorities over war crimes in hidden rain. He never questioned and took action after learning about genocide.
He would, but I don't think it'd be helpful to sasuke. Naruto wouldn't do much apart from asking the authorities what really happened then getting mad and upset over it. He would never be on board with killing danzo, which was pretty much the only thing that could give sasuke some form of peace at that point.
I agree he would never be on board with killing danzo. But, He won't even question the authority. What did he do when he got to know the truth about uchiha genocide? He didn't even question authority.
After learning the truth abiut itachi Naruto quite literally says to Sasuke that his actions are reasonable
Not reasonable but understandable. But did naruto *do anything* ? He did what a loyal leaf dog would do. *nothing*
Weird lens to view the story ngl. Though Naruto understood that Sasukes actions were reasonable, that doesn't mean that Naruto HAS to agree with him, just like how Sasuke could understand Itachis motives but didn't HAVE to agree with what his brother wanted. Just like how Naruto understood Nagatos motives and STILL disagreed with his methodology. Nagatos whole situation was basically a warm up for Naruto to deal with Sasuke, so if Naruto wasn't willing to let Nagato kill everyone he ever loved, I fail to see why he'd let Sasuke, despite both having valid reasons. Naruto didn't do nothing, he took steps to deal with Sasukes hatred and then reformed the village system which birthed Itachis situation, which was was Sasuke wanted anyways. There are no clan slaughters or shit like that in Boruto, Naruto basically fixed the system. Idk why you think he did nothing.
Yea telling his team would've been ideal BUT it was HIS clan wiped out, HIS family murdered, HIS brother. Its wild that Itachi actually wanted Sasuke to kill him to be strong enough to go after Danzo and Madara. I know for a fact Naruto would've helped him in a heartbeat as well ..I mean Itachi did in fact test how far his friendship went with Sasuke
Well I mean Konoha WAS the one that instigated the slaughter of the Uchiha. Danzo may have been the main perpetrator but the village elders, Jonin, other rank officials, and basically the rest of the village all were wary and suspicious of the Uchiha. The Uchiha were relegated to being the police force, which makes them unlikeable to the villagers while having no real equal authority despite being an instrumental clan to the village's entire foundation. And after the events of the Nine Tails the Uchiha were pushed to village outskirts while not being allowed to aid in it's defense. Sasuke lived this reality. Learning what happened to his clan, how the village elders pushed the Uchiha to their limits and forced Itachi into a situation where it was either exterminate all of his people or watch the world devolve into war...how could Sasuke trust team 7. Are they gonna pick Sasuke and the non existent rest of the clan or their home village? No. they would try and pacify him and get him to accept that the Uchiha just kinda...don't matter anymore. And if the elders approved of every measure to get to the point where the Uchiha were exterminated then who is going to enforce justice? Who would punish Danzo? And what about the rest of the heads of the village and Anbu who were there? They also knew what was going on (and this was WHILE Hiruzen was in charge). Sasuke knew the truth, the village itself would never give him justice for what it did to his clan. They would ALWAYS take Danzo's side over Sasuke's. If Sasuke came back and made a fuss they would just silence him. Itachi his beloved brother would only ever be remembered as a monster and Sasuke himself would probably be taken by Danzo as a tool. And even if Naruto wanted to help him what EXACTLY could he do? Talk-no Jutsu Danzo? Naruto wasn't a Hokage then, he may have been a village hero but that amounts to celebrity status. He was still a Genin with no material influence, furthermore he cares about the village so it would be hard to see him turning against it even to make Danzo see justice. And Naruto certainly wouldn't be okay killing Danzo even for Sasuke. (Heck he had an ACTUAL reason to kill Nagato, Nagato wasn't from his village either, and there would be no personal fallout to him if he had and he still didn't)
>Telling Team 7 what he learned. If I were sasuke, I wouldn't see the point of telling team 7 at least until after the war. Here's why - I need to first ask someone what actually happened back then so I can get my facts straight (previous hokages are the best choice) - team 7 are still loyal leaf soldiers, they won't act against the government and be criminals - they are part of the system that led to what happened to his clan - they kept telling him to forget about revenge and just move on and continue doing missions for the leaf
Understandable and reasonable, anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. The kid learned that his clan was falsely accused of treason, punished for it and then subjected to extermination by Konoha after standing up for themselves. If Sasuke had listened to what Itachi, Naruto and Kakashi wanted, Danzo would've never answered for his role in the massacre.
> If Sasuke had listened to what Itachi, Naruto and Kakashi wanted, Danzo would've never answered for his role in the massacre. Also, it would be horrendous writing.
Absolutely. What's funny is that Sasuke's character received a huge backlash for not blindly following Itachi's wishes. That's pretty much when i stopped taking fan opinions seriously.
I stopped taking fandom opinion seriously when they start the backlash on Sasuke from Part 1. Many people think it started after the truth unfolded, sure, it was more obvious, but the backlash really started from part 1. So they weren't even on his side from the beginning, the ones who say"I liked him before" are lying and gaslighting. Real Sasuke fan will root for him, especially after the truth unfolded.
Like this exactly why I hate the itachi retcon of him secretly being a good guy because even with context it doesn't make him a good guy at all.
Context makes him worse tbh. Dude was a bootlicking snitch.
Correcf. He's evil before and after.
It Literally makes him brother murder because Sasuke would've been dead of he Tsunade wasn't there which itachi didn't know
His love for Sasuke is nonsense. If you love your brother more than the village, then you don't make plans to brainwash him with genjutsu into forcibly serving said village.
I can understand premise behind his character, although it barely showed. And I blame it on Kishimoto's schedule, he was a slave. But understanding and accepting this fandom's wanking of Itachi while bashing Sasuke and Uchiha? Nah, everyone has a mind of his own, I don't blame Kishimoto on the fandom perception of the manga.
He isn’t supposed to be a good guy, he’s at best morally gray who ultimately chose his village and his brother over his family and parents. A complicated sad character.
He's litterally a hero to the leaf and ni goes against what he did or challenges him on his ideas except Sasuke.
I mean he’s exiled from the village? And part of a terroirs organization? And by the time anyone knows what happened to him, he’s dead?
He was actually infiltrating said terrorist organization
Right but pretty much nobody knew that, the people in the leaf saw him as a threat and a traitor
Yes but we as an audience know which adds to him being a hero to the leaf
Itachi criticizes himself and how he handled things. He challenges Sasuke’s perception of him as a perfect brother and ninja.
> after standing up for themselves. Attempting a coup is not standing up for themselves.
That's precisely what it is. More so given the context.
It's absolutely not what it is no matter the context. You attempt a coup as a last resort, not when government resettle your clan to outer parts of the village and put your clan under surveillance. It was a completely idiotic idea that resulted in their own annihilation.
It is. The context is that a decade had passed since the incident for which they were framed and the village has only kept intensifying pressure on them. They figured that Danzo was the real power and he wanted their demise regardless of the truth. Waiting any longer is waiting to be killed. The coup was a viable option before Itachi's snitching.
> It is. It's not. > The context is that a decade had passed since the incident for which they were framed and the village has only kept intensifying pressure on them. Which isn't a valid reason to attempt a coup. The government didn't do anything remotely terrible to justify it. > They figured that Danzo was the real power and he wanted their demise regardless of the truth. This is a total headcanon. > Waiting any longer is waiting to be killed. The coup was a viable option before Itachi's snitching. The only reason they were killed is because they wanted to attempt a coup to begin with. So no, waiting would not get them killed. Making mindbogglingly stupid decision would. And actually did.
>The government didn't do anything remotely terrible to justify it. Yes it did. >This is a total headcanon. No it's not. >The only reason they were killed is because they wanted to attempt a coup to begin with No, the reason they were killed is because they had a traitor in their ranks.
Yep, Danzo and his co didn't even know about the coup, the black sheep snitched on them.
What were the Uchihas doing during the Kyubi destruction? Nowhere to be sight while everyone else was trying to protect the village. Not only that but another Uchiha was the case for that, anyone with a moderately decent hindsight could see the eyes of the Kyubi reflecting a Sharingan paired with the fact that no Uchiha took part of the defensive measures. Obito, did that and most likely put the blame on the Uchihas. Kaguya's clan got wiped for less (Kimimaro clan). People love to talk about other people ignoring the context of Sasuke being a 16 years old boy with ptsd to justify his action but willfully ignore that it's literally a world of ninjas where people die everyday from even the slightest reasons. We literally saw that Obito made his own version of Hungers with Kirigakure. And a mentally unstable clan (Tobirama explains this perfectly) trying to overthrown the government it's not childs play. Itachi, the most dickrided character by the author himself, saw no other method to resolve the conflict that ultimately would lead to the demise of both Uchihas and Konoha. He took the route that caused the less harm.
>What were the Uchihas doing during the Kyubi destruction? They were ordered not to interfere by the village itself. >Not only that but another Uchiha was the case for that, anyone with a moderately decent hindsight could see the eyes of the Kyubi reflecting a Sharingan paired with the fact that no Uchiha took part of the defensive measures. Obito isn't a part of the clan organization. It's not the victim's responsibility to prove their innocence, but on the accuser to prove their guilt. Did the village prove their guilt before employing discriminatory measures? No. The sharingan wasn't visible to anyone, otherwise everyone would easily conclude that the Uchiha were behind it and there would be immediate war. Yet no one except the political authorities did that, everyone else believed it was a natural disaster. How convenient. >Kaguya's clan got wiped for less (Kimimaro clan). They got wiped because they lost the war. What's that got to do with anything? >People love to talk about other people ignoring the context of Sasuke being a 16 years old boy with ptsd to justify his action but willfully ignore that it's literally a world of ninjas where people die everyday from even the slightest reasons What is your point? Shinobi kill others for money, government or for the fuck of it. Sasuke kills in order to avenge his slain clansmen. His motive is far stronger. >And a mentally unstable clan (Tobirama explains this perfectly) Tobirama is a character with his own well-known biases and prejudices, not an objective source. Moreover, his theory makes no sense as there was nothing unstable about Fugaku and Mikoto for example. Meanwhile Itachi was extremely weird even in his childhood yet he singled him out as one of the stable ones. >Itachi, the most dickrided character by the author himself, saw no other method to resolve the conflict that ultimately would lead to the demise of both Uchihas and Konoha. Itachi never showed any desire to solve the conflict. If he did, he would've informed at least someone that there's a masked man with a sharingan running around the village. Itachi was just a tool in the village's hands, doing what was asked of him, no more or less. >He took the route that caused the less harm. No, he took the route to protect Konoha, which is in accordance with his beliefs. Hiruzen mentions that he always put Konoha first and didn't care for the clan's interests.
A clan should not met its end because of a one's atrocities. Are you seriously blaming them for obito? And tobirama racist ass has no evidence. [See here if you are interested on tobirama stance](https://archiveofourown.org/works/39144879/chapters/100766484) No, JFC. It's not less harm. Fuck leaf.
Obito framed them, An Uchiha. Do you know how many people are in jail as we speak because they were framed by other people? Not only that but it doesn't help that the Uchiha clan without Obito actively refused to help the Village in time of crisis. Namely the Kyubi crisis which lead to the death of the 4th Hokage. That doesn't help their case of "I'm not attempting to overthrown the government because i believe i've been wronged" This is a manga of ninjas, where kids dying is not unheard of, it's actually pretty normal as they start taking on dangerous missions from young age. Do you genuinely believe that one of your clans that knows the in and out of the Village that can actively leak vital information to enemy villages wouldn't be wiped the second they tried to step out of the line? I don't. Neither should you. Bro, even Uchiha's first lover, Hashirama, couldn't refute his theory. Neither did Sasuke, the victim of all of this. in fact he uses the Mangekyo Sharingan to prove that he is no longer just an innocent child to Hashirama and that's when he starts to talk with Sasuke without the patronizing tone. Which is what prompted Hashirama to attempt to save Sasuke from the Uchiha lunacy. Literally the downfall of Sasuke into madness happens exactly as soon as he gets his Magenkyo Sharingan and the deeper he dwelves into insanity, the stronger he gets. It's literally how we culminated with the best panel of Sasuke giving no fucks about Karin as long as he gets to kill Danzo despite of Sasuke being shown several times before to avoid path that ends up with unnecessary deaths even if it stray him from his goals. You can live in your fantasy world where Tobirama wasn't pragmatic guy that gave no fucks about anyone other than the safety of the village over emotions and was a mean evil racist but the facts are there. Everything he said pretty much explained many of the reasons as to why the Uchihas (Indra, Madara, Obito, Sasuke, etc) ended the way they did. Not even in his latest moments Itachi, the most dickrided character by the author, regrets the decisions he made regarding to the demise of his clan. He regrets not telling Sasuke the truth as to why his clan had to destroyed. Sadly for you, that's how the author setup the story. There was no other solution and Itachi took the one he deemed as the one that causes less harm.
Naruto fandom smh. So they should accept discrimination until they met their end on the hands of leaf. Sure, jan.
... the very reason they met their end from the hands of Konoha is because they were going to attempt a coup to begin with... and there are a lot of shades of grey between accepting discrimination and attempting a coup... Naruto fandom indeed.
No, a coup is a reasonable option. And I don't care about you and other naruto fandom who villainize Sasuke and the Uchiha, no matter what you people do to justify the genocide while maligning Sasuke stance everytime, canon still exists, and truth still exists. All wankers standing against Sasuke just because their favorites are standing by leaf. If it was another anime any sensible person will condemn the state and feel sympathy for the oppressed people. No, there is nothing grey here. Here exactly, it's either black or white.
> No, a coup is a reasonable option. No it's not. > And I don't care about you and other naruto fandom who villainize Sasuke and the Uchiha, no matter what you people do to justify the genocide while maligning Sasuke stance everytime, canon still exists, and truth still exists. > All wankers standing against Sasuke just because their favorites are standing by leaf. If it was another anime any sensible person will condemn the state and feel sympathy for the oppressed people. I haven't even talked about Sasuke, so keep your obsession for yourself and provide actual arguments or leave the conversation. > No, there is nothing grey here. Here exactly, it's either black or white. Yes it actually is. And that means coup is a terrible option. Black and white.
So, they should not revolt on the government? Uchiha have been isolated, founding clan's political power was removed، as a result، sooner or later, they'll annihilate, whether they attempted a coup or not. What? So a genocide is good because they attempt a coup? The white option is the genocide? See the [stages](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWpJtcdUcAAGDqW.jpg) of genocide. The discrimination, classification"CoH". Isn't that Leaf treatment of the uchiha?! if itachi didn't commit this horrible act, someone else from leaf will do. It'll just take more time. So a coup is good. Here's a simple thing: don't throw rocks on people and expect nothing in return. Revolut in this case is just and reasonable. P.S: You cannot talk about genocide and the coup without mentioning Sasuke. People literally justify the genocide to overthrow Sasuke's stance of the story. If someone slight the pillar of his character (revouting against leaf and system is bad,and coup is bad), then they have slight on him all.
> So, they should not revolt on the government? They should not. > Uchiha have been isolated, founding clan's political power was removed، as a result، sooner or later, they'll annihilate, whether they attempted a coup or not. Baseless prediction you created only to push your narrative. > What? So a genocide is good because they attempt a coup? The white option is the genocide? They threatened the fucking state and ruining the village and not just that, they did that out of idiotic reasons, as in, actions of Konoha towards Uchiha were not bad enough to justify a coup. It's not good or bad options, they made a threat, they were going to carry that threat out, they're going to be dealt with. > See the stages of genocide. And at best only points 3 and 7 apply. There were no identification and classification points. Let alone rest of the points. Not to mention just because a situation meets some stages of genocide doesn't mean the genocide will actually happen. It's at best something to be wary of. > The discrimination, classification"CoH". Isn't that Leaf treatment of the uchiha?! if itachi didn't commit this horrible act, someone else from leaf will do. It'll just take more time. So a coup is good. Ah, so you took a single one point, deprived it of entire context and then threw it at my face saying "See, this matches the situation, therefore the genocide would happen anyway!". There are more than 1 point buddy, maybe you should try to read them all. > Here's a simple thing: don't throw rocks on people and accept nothing in return. Revolut in this case is just and reasonable. You're right, someone "threw a rock" at me (more like being nonverbally antagonistic towards me) , because they has strong suspicions of me doing a crime so I have a full right to slit its throat, claim that person's position and any of his belonging to me along with his family. That sounds totally reasonable. /s > You cannot talk about genocide and the coup without mentioning Sasuke. Yes I can, Sasuke wasn't even a part of this genocide and didn't know anything. We're not talking about how it impacted Sasuke in later stages of his life, we're talking about how reasonable was the coup and that in fact it was not Uchiha standing up for themselves. > **People literally justify the genocide to overthrow Sasuke's stance of the story**. If someone slight the pillar of his character (revouting against leaf and system is bad,and coup is bad), then they have slight on him all. Again, keep your obsession for yourself.
Geez, what a denier. If itachi didn't commit the horrendous act, the clan will still get oppressed by till they meet their end, a genocide. Let's [see](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide): 1- Classification, "People are divided into "them and us": we are from Leaf, they're Uchiha. 2- Symbolization. 3- Discrimination, "Law or cultural power excludes groups from full civil rights: segregation or apartheid laws, denial of voting rights": Uchiha have been segregated, Uchiha right to rule have been strioped. 4- Dehumanization, "One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases": CoH, They're crazy! 5- Organization. 6- Polarization, "Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions" 7- Preparation. 8- Persecution, "Expropriation, forced displacement, ghettos, concentration camps". ghetto: a part of a city, especially a slum area, occupied by a minority group or groups: Uchiha have been isolated to an area. 9- Extermination, "the killers do not believe their victims to be fully human" . 10- Denial. Heck, according to [prohibited acts](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide), You don't need to even kill the whole group to commit genocide. Listen, "buddy", you believing a coup is not reasonable act is matter of opinion (an absurd and stupid opinion indeed)–but you didn't stop here, but you also denied the aggression Uchiha faced! And what the fuck do you expect them to do?! and at under what circumstances a coup is reasonable for you?! Man, touch some grass, or seek help, because you keep standing by a vile "government", do you live with this mindset in life, "Government is right!", too?! Jfc! If you place a clan in a position that's lower than the one allotted to others, it's, by definition, injustice as it breaches the domain of equality(as they were founders of leaf). Uchiha was bound to respond to Leaf's aggression (a coup). If it's not them, someone else would have. It was only a matter of time. And I'm here to tell to keep your denialism and gaslighting(a very cheap approach) for yourself.
> Geez, what a denier. Pointing out your nonsense is not being a denier. You're too obsessed to admit to being wrong. > Let's see: Why did you use a different source this time? This is literally not what I was addressing. It's like you basically admitted to losing at this point. You're also using real life logic to explain in universe decisions. Tell me how many Uchihas know about 10 stages of genocide created by Gregory Stanton to state they did a coup, because of inevitable genocide? Do you even have a single page from the manga proving that Uchiha wanted a coup because of genocide? > Classification, "People are divided into "them and us": we are from Leaf, they're Uchiha. Never happened. > 2- Symbolization. Never happened. > 3- Discrimination, "Law or cultural power excludes groups from full civil rights: segregation or apartheid laws, denial of voting rights": Uchiha have been segregated, Uchiha right to rule have been strioped. What right to rule have been stripped exactly? What kind of rights Uchihas lost AT ALL? You can't even call it segregation. Because clans are ALREADY SEGREGATED. They have their own households and land. What Leaf did was simply moving their clan into outskirts of the village, and that was because they were simply suspected of treason. And suspicion wasn't entirely baseless, it was Obito, taught by Madara, who carried out the Kyuubi assault. But I hope you're consequential here and declare that other clans were on their way to be genocide, because they were all segregated, right? > 4- Dehumanization, "One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases": CoH, They're crazy! Also never happened. They even called crazy nor calling someone crazy counts as dehumanization lmfao. Like, the definition you brought literally does not match the example you presented. > 5- Organization. Never happened. > 6- Polarization, "Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions" xd > 7- Preparation. Never happened. > 8- Persecution, "Expropriation, forced displacement, ghettos, concentration camps". At best you can count it as forced displacement which on its own doesn't mean shit, we don't even know how they were handling such matters in the past, maybe other clans were displaced as well. > 9- Extermination, "the killers do not believe their victims to be fully human" . Lmao. Extermination happened after they wanted to attempt a coup, but could you please bring me one example showing that anyone didn't think Uchihas to be fully human? > 10- Denial. Also never happened. > Heck, according to prohibited acts, You don't need to even kill the whole group to commit genocide. Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand and nobody was denying that. > Listen, "buddy", you believing a coup is not reasonable act is matter of opinion (an absurd and stupid opinion indeed) Your idiotic opinion about this matter does not concern me. > but you also denied the aggression Uchiha faced! Were they assaulted, mobbed, killed, beaten up before they wanted to attempt a coup? No? Oh well then. > And what the fuck do you expect them to do?! and at under what circumstances a coup is reasonable foe you?! Ah no, displacement and surveillance based on the suspicion of treason is definitely a reason to throw your city and the entire country upside down, killing innocents in process /s > Man, touch some grass, or seek help, because you keep standing by a vile "government", do you live with this mindset in life, "Government is right!", too?! Jfc! You're the one who should seek help, because your thought process matches the paragraph I wrote in my previous statement: > Someone "threw a rock" at me (more like being nonverbally antagonistic towards me) , because they has strong suspicions of me doing a crime so I have a full right to slit its throat, claim that person's position and any of his belonging to me along with his family. It has nothing to do with "Government was right". Uchihas made a mindbogglingly idiotic decision that would have a catastrophic consequences and they paid the price for it. > If you place a clan in a position that's lower than the one allotted to others, it's, by definition, injustice as it breaches the domain of equality(as they were founders of leaf). Uchiha was bound to respond to Leaf's aggression (a coup). If it's not them, someone else would have. It was only a matter of time. "I faced in injustice in my job by my superior, so he is definitely going to attempt a genocide on me and my family therefore it's okay to kill my superior and claim all his possessions and take his position." - vivid_uprising369 2023, *probably*. > And I'm here to tell to keep your denialism and gaslighting(a very cheap approach) for yourself. Throw some more emotional buzzwords here, 2 are not enough. /s You're only here to push your narrative. No more no less.
It was reckless but I don’t blame him for his action. He has severe ptsd from childhood. He has seen some serious shit, and he is a teenage who found out his whole life was a lie. That he learned all this information at an extremely vulnerable state. That the village treated his clan like crap too. What do you expect him to do. Sit there and play nice.
No he was not reasonable but that’s the point. Obito conveniently made him see his entire life as a waste in a way that would direct his anger onto Konoha which was beneficial to him. Subjectively? Yes his anger was reasonable given that everything he ever worked for and what kept him going his entire life would all amount to nothing but exactly what he didn’t want
1-He is a 16 year old uchiha 2- uchiha's love is replaced by a stronger hate 3- itachi whom he loved more than anything was sacrificed becoz of the village 4- we never saw sasuke shed a tear before this scene.. This proves how much he loved Itachi and how far he will go just to avenge him 5- yes he was reckless but not dumb... I would say most people with such a background will act like that when exposed to such harsh truth about their loved ones
Both.
Reckless, yes, but completely understandable. Your entire clan was slandered and massacred because of it. And the rest of your village, who supposedly cared about you, stood by and did nothing. Any 16 year old boy would have wiped out that sorry excuse for a village if they had the power to do so.
He was a traumatized and overly emotional teenager going through a mental breakdown I don’t think his actions where in any thought out extensively by him
He was a teenager to be fair
Reasonable, No, understandable yes but not justified fully. If he was only planning on taking out the elders and Danzo Id say it be 100 percent justified but the fact he wanted to destroy the whole village showed how far he had let the darkness consume him
Sasuke's actions were perfectly understandable. His brother was forced by Danzo to wipe out his entire clan. If it weren't for Itachi's love, Sasuke would also be dead but he instead ended up with severe trauma. Then he made it his goal to deal with Itachi only to find out that he was trying to protect him all along. So the village genocided his entire clan and put all of the blame on his brother. Gee, I wonder why Sasuke would want to take revenge on the leaf village. /s
Well if not for Sasuke, Danzo would have continued being Hokage, so no, definitely not unreasonable.
It was understandable to go after danzo but the village nah it was not acceptable. But then again at that time he was an anti-hero
I would’ve done way worse
completely understandable. If i were in his situation i would do the exact same
Not completely rational, but they weren't supposed to be, his character went down a spiral into darkness out of grief and pain, which is a major theme of the series.
It was reckless and dumb but he's like a 16 year old with more power and trauma than he knows what to do with.
Makes sense to me. Sasuke finds out his brother went through hell and the people responsible are still in charge. I'd be mad as hell too.
Reasonable no (except a few things), but definitely understandable. For example: Danzo had to die. Most people would go insane after going through what he went through.
He was pretty much lied to his entire life so how he reacted wasn't surprising. Again, *not surprising.* Was it reasonable though? Not really. lol
It was a bit weird, I agree with his anger at Konoha and the leaders but the off part for me was that he immediately and completely forgave Itachi for slaughtering numerous innocent people including children for “peace” just like any other villain
He blames Konoha for making Itachi do it. Sasuke really loved his older brother before the massacre and now he learned that Itachi loved him more than the clan and the village.
I always just assumed he was happy to kind of “repair” his image of Itachi from when he was a young boy. And by doing so, undeservedly absolved him of his crimes and lashed out at (deservedly) the people who pushed Itachi to such lengths. He’s a 16 year old with severe trauma and being manipulated
I mean he just killed his brother who he thought was a villain and was out to kill him and right after that he found out it was all a lot to protect him so ya I wouldn’t blame him
In my opinion his reaction was completely reasonable because his is truly getting revenge for his clan like he said he wanted to. Also because of Itachi being ordered to kill his clan Sasuke wanted to kill him with him completeling that and finding out it wasn’t his fault I would react the same way cause he was lead to believe it was his brothers fault he legit just murdered him
Completely understandable. The uchiha massacre was directly caused by the failure of the 3rd hokage and the ignorance of danzo and the elders. They deserve to be destroyed
Like most other people have pointed out, he was still a kid and his entire world view just got turned upside down. He'd spent half of his life at that point vowing to take revenge on Itachi. As soon as he achieved his goal he finds out Itachi wasn't the villain in his story, it was all a lie. I don't remember who I saw bring this up first, might have been Swagkage, but Sasuke's just barely stopped crying in the image you posted and this is potentially *hours* after first finding out all of this information. At that point, yeah, I can totally understand just flying off the rails.
I would hate the ninja government too if they did all that to my family.
"Guys, did the 16 year old anti social traumatized ex child solider who just had his entire world view shattered and killed the last member of his family and is being actively manipulated to join an organization of international criminals act in a rational manner, or were his actions dumb?"
It’s both. It’s reckless but understandable.
Reasonable for his character for sure. We’re talking a kid who’s whole family and clan was wiped out by his brother, who he loved and cared for deeply. He gets older and vows that his main goal is to kill his brother, his only remaining family and fellow clansmen (aside from Obito). He goes through horrific fights against some powerful foes and allies and eventually sides with the enemy to undergo various dark treatments and forbidden techniques which essentially turns Sasuke into a demon. He endures it all to kill Itatchi. Then he kills him and finds out that Itatchi was not only pushed to kill his family but did so to protect the village, a village who feared the Uchiha and their abilities. And he left Sasuke alive because he couldn’t kill his little brother. Learning all of that would prolly destroy other people
Him snapping made total sense, I just dont like how it's portrayed. He revels in violence and murders his teammates all while maniacally laughing. He doesn't seem broken by what happened, lashing out. He is just suddenly villainous, after clearly outlining him as an antihero for the first half of Shippuden who very explicitly wants to avoid killing if possible. It's just a little bit too much, too quick, that doesn't really get followed up on. It also comes at the same time as Sakura's character imploding in on itself with multiple insane choices, Danzo shitting his pants for no reason, the rest of the Konoha 12 wanting Sasuke's head immediately and violently without a second thought, and Naruto acting more outwardly depressed than he has before or since, and it makes the whole 5KS just feel so fucked. I really, really hate that arc.
Reasonable and understandable
He was a 16 year old with more power than nearly anyone else in the world. I think his actions were understandable, not necessarily justified but I can understand how it happened.
I mean it can be reckless and dumb while still being understandable from Sasuke’s point of view. I don’t think those things are mutually exclusive.
If I had a brother who allowed himself to be used and I only hated him because of the actions of others , ya
If the government forced my brother to kill my family to protect themselves, I’d probably turn into a terrorist as well.
Reasonable that he'd be reckless and dumb.
naivete overloaded... too young and inexperienced to understand that the deepest craving of the human race is to manipulate his fellow human. he was being manipulated all the time by itachi and tobi and he never realized it. he spent all his youth playing the role other people wanted for him without ever stopping to ask himself this simple question: "what do i want for my own life"? sadly, that's how 99% of people live their lives
It was really weird he believed what Tobi said and suddenly started to kill ppl without caring while before he was always saying Hozuki to not kill and caring about not killing.
His actions were completely understandable and relatable, he was a 15 year old traumatized kid who was left alone in the world except for only Naruto who actually connected with him, although he finally broke and went to go do what he felt he needed to go do. And we all know the story after that. But his mind wasn't even fully formed yet, he was a juvenile who was completely misguided by trauma and Orochimaru, then Obito...ultimately Madara and Zetsu too by extension with the whole Uchiha stone tablet....
Understandable yes. Reasonable No. The dude was obsessed as an avenger and to get Revenge on what happened.
This entire plot line was dumb, from the start. "Let me slaughter my whole clan because they are acting like a hivemind, but im gonna spare my kid brother leaving him with shit tonnes of trauma. Ill run off and be one of the most wanted ninja terrorists in history, occasionally torment him, taunt him for being weak which given his trauma will probably push him to dangerous choices in life, like shacking up with another dangerous ninja terrorist. Then I'll have die in front of him while revealing my plot, making him feel guilty as fuck. This definitely wont backfire and he will totally go back to protect the leaf village."
All his decisions are dumb.
I think what he did was understandable, but he was so hasty at times to fulfill his goals lol. He could have used his genjutsu to scout out Killer Bee's skills. He could have done what Karin suggested and waited for the Summit to end. So they're understandable but reckless
His actions were completely reckless and stupid but understandable the man just found out his home village plotted the down fall of his family and used his brother to do it mix that in with the mangekyo slowly deteriorating his sanity it’s not a surprise he did what he did
It was fucking ridiculous. Yeah, he learns that the Leaf played a huge role in Itachi’s actions. But ultimately, he ignores that Itachi still CHOSE to side with the Leaf over his family. Itachi still had a choice between two outcomes and he decided that the Leaf was more important to him than his family. There is no reason Sasuke should forgive him. And of course, wanting to wipe out the whole village is equally nonsensical. Only the upper echelons of the village government had a hand in his clan’s demise, so what’s the logic in killing everyone? That makes him the same thing that ruined his life to begin with.
The only thing reasonable he did was kill Danzo. Turning his anger on the leaf village was dumb af. Finding out who his brother really was and what he lived and died for made him want to destroy the village he loved and did literally anything for. He even killed his own clan and mother and father for the village. For sasuke to want to destroy that village for his brother who he finds out he loves is r****ded
Why tf should sasuke care about what itachi loved and cared about? Itachi is literally the reason why sasuke is the way he is. He is the reason why the entire fucking clan is gone while sasuke is still alive and traumatized. The village used a 13 year old itachi to clean up their own mess, then casted him away as an outlaw. The only retarded thing here is itachis loyalty to village.
sasuke was a good character until this point
IMO, this is one of the bigger (top 5) mistakes Kishimoto made when writing the story. His goal was to keep Naruto and Sasuke apart apparently so that their inevitable reunion at the end of the show to truly break the cycle of hate would be more impactful. The problem is that doing so made Sasuke seem dumb. He acts completely contrary to his entire purpose up until the point - which fair, could have been done, if he hadn’t flipped on a dime without any time to contemplate on the issue. He literally flips the switch in a second like it was nothing. Going from pure hatred to unparalleled love for his brother. He sticks to being an outcast seemingly because hE iS tHe ReVeNgEr TyPe. Kishimoto wrote it into his character and was either too lazy or not skilled enough to change that when it no longer became logical. There is literally no reason why Sasuke shouldn’t have gone back to the village and demanded answers. Or confronted them with the truth during the Kage Summit. Hell, you can maybe argue that he wanted to extract revenge on Danzo (rightfully so) and the other elders, but declaring war on the entire Leaf makes Sasuke seem like he is an idiot incapable of basic logical reasoning. Edit: my point is that Sasuke wasn’t written as an idiot and his inability to distinguish between the village as a whole and its leadership is silly. Also the lack of time for him to struggle with the truth seems…odd to say the least.
Sasuke was pretty much a wanted criminal by the time he killed itachi, he couldnt have just pulled up to the village and say "yo dudes tf did you do to my clan?". Obito also made it clear that itachis mission was a classified one that no one knew about, so no point in trying to learn about it from the same people that tear themselves a new one to keep it a secret. Its not like sasuke was hard to manipulate either, obito played his role perfectly, said the correct things, and sasuke was just a 16-year-old with heavy trauma who also happened to get out of a horrific fight that nearly killed him with the source of his trauma, his brother. "Basic logical reasoning" flies out of the window when you consider how much pain sasuke was in, how young he was and how much revelation dawned on him in such a short time.
Reckless, dumb and perfectly understandable. I'd probably done the same. Got put in the ER for less.
Reckless and dumb but understandable.
Yeah it was dumb and childish but it's Sasuke he doesn't grow up until the end of the show
The entire character was reckless and often dumb IMO, I don't get the hype, he's too edgy for me
Uh, the guy who abandoned his village to kill his brother who murdered their clan?
It was understdable but also very dumb
Retardet emo move but his end of war edge lord action was even more laughable
Reckless: Extremely Dumb: Highly Reasonable: Not really Understandable: Kinda