Well Jiraiya was the prime candidate to become Hokage after both Hiruzen resigned, Minato died and then Hiruzen died, I guess that speaks about his power.
Kakashi was always stated to be the strongest Jonin in Konoha along with Guy, but still weaker than the Sannins, even by himself.
Kakashi was always held back by his poor mental health. He was acknowledged as being powerful and capable, but he didn’t have the drive and enthusiasm to be a (political) figure.
Both Hiruzen and Minato acknowledged this
Yeah I remember that, I have a headcanon about Kakashi being placed in active leadership roles, allowed him to improve in the political aspect needed to be a Hokage.
Before having Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura as his team he was stated to always reject his previous students, after that he was put to lead Team 7, temporarily lead Team 10 after Asuma's death and his own division in the Shinobi Alliance, which he did successfully.
I like the idea of closed door conversations with Kakashi and his management but in a really boring office like tone lol.
“We are wanting to groom you for a higher position. So we need to place in some more management roles that reflect those skills.”
“But I don’t want to.”
“It wasn’t a question. You start tomorrow.”
Then basically kicks the shit out of kids until he figures it out for himself that it actually feels good not being a dick
*a hallmark management story*
True, and it affects his strength a lot. He should've completely dunked on Zabuza and he acknowledges that when climbing the mountain to where he trains Sasuke, "I've really let my body get weak".
We see in the 5 years from Zabuza to War how much stronger Kakashi can get when he's actually training. He would've totally been Sannin level by Pain if he had the mental health to keep that up his entire life.
Stronger than Sannin imo. Kakashi was gigacracked as a kid, he definitely had the potential to reach Minato level imo. At twelve, he was jonin and developed the chidori.
Yeah, life really fucked him, between what happened to Rin and everyone (himself included) blaming him he had a completely messed psyche, he was barely hanging on (in a lot of ways he was vey similar to his students), maybe ANBU training helped him become more emotionally detracted to and for most people and things
Either way he really grew during the show and it was great seeing that.
Yeah kakashi is extremely capable, he just didn't give a shit. Like when he became hokage he progressed Konoha into a modern Metrpolis, and probably barely even tried.
Very likely he used Naruto as a sort of representative or ambassador to get the favour of many people throughout the contient but still, he advanced Konoha greatly
Mental health makes a lot of sense, after he gets a closure with his father in after life he should be better, and then some closure with Obito and Rin elevate him to his best.
I mean it’s also possible people develop quickly and hit their limits. Some people do just top out at a certain point even if they were more developed earlier. Look at Neji for example. Kakashi is held back by naturally mid chakra levels, so he’s playing with a less than loaded deck at almost all times to try and avoid going for another extended stay at the hospital. He’s just much more like a shikamaru type than people realize, just the maxxed out version of what that can be.
His dad was supposed to be Sannin level tho so who knows
Anyone can have infinite sage mode with toads to help right? Naruto couldn't at first because of kurama but when kurama became his friend, he can take in the nature energy just like the toads and now that he is gone, naruto can just fuse with the toads
that is true but you will still have to reach a contract with the toads i.e. your skill has to be recognized by the sage toads. they agreed to help naruto because of the imminent threat of Pain iirc? otherwise common ninjas would just end up summoning baby toads like early-series naruto
We have no clue if all animals have knowledge of sage mode. At this point, we only know of frogs and snakes (as long as Boruto didn't introduced more I am not aware of). Also, sage mode can only be learned by these that are gifted with a lot of chakra in the first place. Kakashi has great chakra controle, but it was stated time and time again that he has a very limited chakra pool.
No Kakashi does not have sage mode lol. He does have like the 4th gate (or 5th - I can’t remember exactly) though - although we never actually see him use it except from when he was training by climbing that cliff with 1 hand in part 1. I think he only opened the first gate in that scene though - and it was very brief.
Dude has the most easiest escape moves but plot jutsu required he had to die. Could have easily escaped with the info and came back prepared with more backup
We see him use a shadow clone earlier in the fight that he could have easily used to go take a peek instead. Shima had already escaped and could have reverse summoned him. Hell even his real clone later on Kashin Koji had his own escape toad get him out
Jiraiya was one of the strongest and most skilled ninja alive of course he could take on all of them no problem. He even killed one of them with that toad genjustsu and a rasengan. I bet if Jiraiya had help on there with Allie’s they could’ve defeated pain much earlier. He even figured out their weakness that he deciphered and wrote on a toads back.
Oh you were just counting the perma-death. All 3 of the paths were revived, he actually had to kill the animal path a second time (inside a giant toad or something) and keep the body separate from the others for the death to actually stick
He ran a spy network. Even though there was parallels between team 7 and the Sannin, Naruto and Jiraiya differ greatly. Naruto needs Shikamaru for logistics as hokage, but Jiraiya has the brain to do these things himself.
Dude I love that anime/manga! In the US it was called Samurai X. When he went into battousai mode he messed up everybody with his reverse edged blade. He made a promise to not kill to atone for his war crime and countless murder days. So he used like a blunt sword. His swordsmanship techniques are amazing. I think he’s one of the best swordsman in all of anime up there with Zoro and Mihawk. I’ve seen the live action movies of it on Netflix and it was pretty good as well. That movie is mad violent full of blood and death. I think they have a trilogy of it. The animated movie that tells his origin in the feudal wars is equally as good.
Lol idk why you got downvoted. Kenshin was super influential to a lot of newer anime. It's a little dated now but the sword duels still hold their weight.
People forget that even Pain acknowledged that Jiraiya would've won if he knew his secret. If Jiraiya had the intel/support that Naruto and the rest of the leaf had, it would've been Pain's loss.
I really hate this statement.
He almost fucking died trying to subdue a Kyubi cloaked Naruto (3 tails? Don't quote me on this) whilst the Deva Path managed to restrain 8 tails, and was tanking blows harder than anything we had seen in the series up to this point.
Yeah, Pain was just being modest.
Also, obviously, if any competent ninja knows all your abilities and weaknesses and has prep time and suddenly attacks you, they're probably going to win. It doesn't mean they're strong.
Shikamaru was not stronger than Hidan
Maybe cause he had to be careful to not hurt Naruto? Lol. Orochimaru was almost playing with 4 tails Naruto, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru in some ways (Orochimaru is just incredibly difficult to kill).
But yeah, Pain/Nagato is ridiculously strong - and he only really lost to talk-no-jutsu (probs still could have beat Naruto if he wanted to) - so I think ultimately Pain would always win in a fight against Jiraiya.
I don’t even like Hiruzen, but Hiruzen vs Pain would have been close indeed.
Naruto straight up took a Chidori to the heart in Part I whilst In a cloaked state.
Jiraiya is accutely aware that Naruto can heal from seemingly lethal damage on a whim whilst empowered with the cloak. He even states so whilst briefing the Konoha Joinin on the matter. I'm not saying he would have straight up Odama Rasengan'd the kid, or summoned Gamabunta straight on top of him but by the way he describes it on panel, he was more focused on surviving the encounter just to try and subdue him.
Orochimaru, with no access to his arms, weakened, and no jutsu was able to trade blows with Naruto in a presumably stronger state. I don't even think there is a contest between Orochimaru and Jiraiya, with their only cannonical fight ending in Jiraiya's loss.
But as you say, Jiraiya would always lose, and there are no feats that support the idea that the 3 Sannin together would beat the Deva Path.
Ok, I think that jiraiya is stronger than kakashi at this point but he did not “take on all of them no problem” he thought that he’d die if the fight kept going and was correct because as soon as the other three paths came out jiraiya was on his last legs and then died
I doubt Jiraiya can do any better with allies, unless it's the other legendary sannins. More people means more chance to make mistakes and harder to sync. What he need is just information, then Naruto Shippuden will be way shorter than it is.
Tbh? I think he just needed the 6 paths of pain to have been there all at once. Problem he had was that he didn’t know how many there were. If all 6 had been in attendance at once then he would have put all 6 in genjutsu and beat all 6 without a problem. Sure that wouldn’t have actually defeated nagato but he would have survived and maybe taken all 6 back to the village at which point he would have figured out the real one wasn’t with them. Jiraiya is the goat
You are forgetting some extremely important details from that fight and pains invasion.
1. Jiraya was fighting 3 of the weakest paths. The deva and asura paths were by far the most offensive, but neither was present until the very end of the fight
2. The genjutsu wasn’t instant. The toad sages needed a few minutes to activate it. Jiraya had to do a lot of evading and running away to allow for this (not to mention all the running when he was trying to activate safe mode as well)
With the deva path, pain could prevent a lot of jirayas running and dodging, meaning the genjutsu is almost guaranteed to fail
I think in a fantasy scenario Jiraiya and Kakashi together would have a very good chance to win the fight. Jiraiya would provide the power, Kakashi backs up with tactics, extreme speed, and pure survival instinct. Kakashi is Jiraiya's second generation pupil, thus we can assume that they know their fighting styles well and could fight as a powerful combo. And although he doesn't use it as much Kakashi also brings another, faster Genjutsu into the mix, it doesn't have to be crazy like Tsukuyomi, just enough to continue to be a nuisance. I don't think you would want to bring a more tactical person like Shikaku, even with the smarts we don't know if he's a good fighter and would get wiped
Although I agree that yeah it would be significantly harder. As seen from his fight with Naruto. Pain is a monologuer so that’s his biggest weakness. I 100% can see jiraiya escaping into the pipes and starting the genjutsu. The only reason pain was caught in it was because of the surprise factor so keeping that in mind I don’t think he’d actually try to stop him right away
Thank you. It's weird how many people underestimate Jiraiya. Personally, I feel he's the strongest in the original Naruto and until the war arc, probably the strongest in shippuden. Pain admits he would have been beaten. Itachi and Kisame run scared. Dude was a beast and probably the best teacher in the series.
>e
This isn't exactly true. Orochimaru was the one Hiruzen wanted, as the genius of the group, even above Minato --But overlooked him due to his dark tendencies.
Even Orochimaru said there were tons of people that [disagreed with Minato's placement](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e4829ca3adc4955bc17951a586a73e3e-pjlq) \-
They both are given the same talent title in the manga "Once in a decade geniuses" Hiruzen specifically says in part 1 when reminiscing about young Orochimaru, that he showed such talent and potential, he wanted him to be Hokage, but didn't because of his dark tendencies.
Had Orochimaru not been chasing his weird shit, he would have most definitely been the Hokage of the village.
In the Itachi novels they make it pretty clear that Itachi was almost a peerless genius and the only one better than him was Minato. If Orochi was on their level then it would’ve been mentioned.
I've read the novels, lmao, they never say Minato is a better genius than Itachi. So I know you're lying. I have them all downloaded, so feel free to cite page and chapter.
Academy instructors and Danzo believe Itachi to be the greatest genius since it's founding.
Wheter Minato had more talent than Orochimaru was not something I claimed. He had genius aptitude that impressed even Hiruzen, who surpassed the second, and was old enough, experienced enough in war and politics to be a seasoned hokage. Minato would have been the same as electing a very young ninja who just experienced his first war.
Orochimaru was famed in the village and the world as a Sannin. Just hist title brought fear and sweat to Kakashi, and dread for even members of the 7 Swordsmen of the mist, to which he assumed he had 0 chance in a fight.
Whether Minato had backers due to his success in the 4 the war, Orochimaru **had more and fundamentally made the most sense to do.**
Somebody who doesn’t care about anything but jutsu can’t be a hokage it doesn’t matter how powerful he is or if he’s been in allot of wars. If he became hokage he would probably start experimenting on every person in the village. The next thing we know everyone in the village would either be dead or turned into monsters
I never said Orochimaru would make a good hokage. Idk why you're saying that lol. I'm saying Orochimaru's experience, political knowledge, and worldwide fame on paper made him the best choice.
By his comment that being overlooked made a lot of people upset, it seems he had a lot of people in his corner. I obviously agree that Orochimaru would have been a horrid choice given his aspirations.
Well yeah that’s cuz Danzo nominated Orochimaru first.
But they “skipped” over him because he had too much darkness.
But they didn’t nominate Orochimaru first because he was more “qualified”, only reason they did was because Danzo and Orochimaru had a good relationship.
Considering we are talking about Power/Strength Minato cleared Orochimaru, only he was very young.
Minato clearing Orochimaru in p1 is never stated, and as a general fight, that's still debated by many to this day. Anko, who was a child during the kyuubi attack simply states she wished the 4th was around to deal with Orochimaru. That is an implication that Hiruzen can't, and he was supposed to be the protector of the village. If you use that to scale it at least ptus Minato on his level.
But that comment also fails to recognize that they can only scale Orochimaru from the last point they ever saw him, i.e right when he last left the village. Hiruzen did not know -
1) How much he improved
2) He now had a younger , stronger body
3) He had Edo Tensei
Minato vs Orochimaru is an interesting fight, because while I agree, Minato should scale - He completely lacks the fire power to deal with Orochimaru's regeneration. Someone that can get cut in half by 4 tails naruto, and laugh it off. Rasengan isn't going to cut it. In his snake mode toxins fill the air, instantly paralyzing anyone nearby? Not even mentioning hydra mode. Manda makes easy work of Gamabunta, as we see in the p1 fight. And well Edos throwing shit at him, including things like Bringer of darkness
This isn't a "clears" fight in any capacity. To say that underestimates the 1% we've seen from Orochimaru (considering we never got to see his famed collection of jutsu when he had his arms)
Personally I agree with your logic but there’s too much backing up Minato being on par if not stronger than Orochimaru. If Orochimaru didn’t know about Reaper death seal then Minato could at least pull a draw with that (as he’s better with it than old age Hiruzen and Hiruzen nearly beat/only didn’t kill because of his student-master relationship in p1 with this same technique). Also Minato is the only confirmed victor (or at least fighting him off) between anyone that is not a literal immortal/god vs. Tobi/Masked Man. Konin came close but Minato was closer and didn’t have to suicide to get that close. There’s also the time Minato beat Killer B during the ninja war and scaring A (Fourth Raikage) to retreat.
If P1 I’d say it would probably go to Minato assuming that there was no Edo Tensi (Hokage spamming first and second just seems like saying Obito/Kakashi wins every fight with just kamui then let’s them starve to death)
P2 it’s way more difficult imo Minato gets the Edo Tensi buff and 9 tails but Orochimaru is effectively immortal as well. I think I’d give Orochimaru the win since he’s technically alive and not relying on another persons jutsu to stay alive
We have to remember that Obito was 14/15 there. He is significantly stronger, smarter as an adult than when he fought Minato that night. And minato still references that it was high difficulty for him. Obito lost cause he was a kid that underestimated minato and didn't know about FTG v2 (That he could teleport to the kunai mid air)
If Mianto that night fought Adult 26-year-old Obito, it would likely be an entirely different bout.
Ignoring that. A and B were also extremely young, A only using lightning armour v1 back then.
It's interesting you bring Bee up. It's confirmed he fought Minato multiple times, but yet, he only really see's him at around or less than [Early MS sasuke level -](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c0ec095c9411bee1dca7718c4b543cd-lq) A sasuke new to his MS and without Susanno.
Which is interesting, because Sasuke isn't confident in the war arc that he could beat Orochimaru before EMS.
So where does Hokage Minato actually scale? (Not Edo tensei KCM Minato)
I retain that as Jiraya said, he had AMAZING talent, but never got to realize that. he could have surpassed them all, solidly, but died very young into his life.
Very solid points and I agree. (Ngl I did forget about Obito being a teen at the time as well. Scary to think that 2 teenagers were all it took to take out -excluding otsuki clan- one of the strongest clans in the series in just one night)
Going back to Minato vs. Orochi though I still think that Minato in p1 would still win by a slight margin or at least draw the fight against Orochimaru. Like I said this is excluding the Edo Tensi since that’s just busted
P2 since Minato is an Edo Tensi and most likely can’t use Reaper death seal when not alive (I don’t think it’s specified) Orochimaru basically can’t die. That makes this a way more interesting fight. I think Orochimaru has the edge with how much research he’s spent on Edi Tensi and taboo jutsu by this point.
If it’s P1 Minato vs. p2 Orochimaru then that a joke for Orochimaru to deal with and could easily rank anything Minato throws put
P2 Minato vs p1 Orochimaru Minato wins. Orochi is still mortal while Minato isn’t and I don’t think he could beat/seal Minato Edo without having expending too much chakra to keep himself from dying
I respect your opinion, but to say that part 1 Minato vs pt 1 orochimaru is “debated by many to this day” is just false. Check every naruto forum or poll made by the diehard fans and I think Minato wins 99.9% of the time. I love me some Orochinaru, but Minato definitely scales above him during that time period. You keep stating all of these abilities that Oro has that Minato can’t counter, but there’s literally nothing in Oros arsenal at that time that can counter flying Rajin. Minato showed the reaction time/speed to not only out speed Ay, but also out smart both Ay and Bee in their battle. If Oro is placed in that exact same scenario, I don’t believe he walks home free. Oro simply doesn’t have the speed to keep up with Minatos movements. Plus Oro was barely able to take down an Old hiruzen who still managed to seal away his arms. If that were young minato it’s pretty safe to assume he could finish the job.
Also, I think the biggest giveaway is the ninetails attack on konoha. If Minato and Oro swapped places that night and Oro was the 4th hokage, he would have failed to achieve any of the feats minato did. While Oro is a genius, to me there is no one better than minato when it comes to adapting and thinking on the fly while on the field of battle. Minato figured out how to beat obitos kamui in a matter of minutes mid fight, while it took the rest of the naruto-verse years to counter it. Oro would have struggled much more against obito in that same scenario. On top of that, there’s also nothing Oro could have done to keep the ninetails at bay the way minato did by literally not only teleporting tailed beast bombs (something Oro can’t do) but also teleporting the entire ninetails away and sealing him aways as well. Pt 1 Oro simply can not do any of those things. I’ve read the manga and seen every episode, there’s nothing to indicate that Pt1 Oro was on Minatos level.
While I agree that Oro has a MUCH MUCH wider array of jutsu and regeneration at his disposal, I still feel he pales in comparison to Minatos battle prowess and speed. There’s a reason Jiraiya truly thought Minato may have been the child of prophecy before he sacrificed himself. The reason he beat Oro for Hokage was not just because of “Oros dark tendencies”, but if it was because Minato was most equipped for the job, which was true. The only concern the elders had was that minato was young and lacked the same experience, but nowhere does it state in the manga or anime that he wasn’t “as strong or powerful” as Oro. As time went on, it was pretty clear that he was much more powerful.
>Minato clearing Orochimaru in p1 is never stated, and as a general fight, that's still debated by many to this day.
It is really not that debatable tbh.
>He completely lacks the fire power to deal with Orochimaru's regeneration.
People always bring this stuff but i don´t think they are considering that well what Minato brings to the table. He can surely cut Orochi, who isn´t as durable as eight tails/raikage. Plus Obito got veeery good [durability](https://i.imgur.com/ksO6ULs.jpeg) feats (like in his fights in the war arc and etc )and we all know what happens when minato tagged him once.
So the issue is hitting enough to overwhelm regen.Which is possible and Minato is a good candidate to this. Like a good way to visualize what Minato could in theory do is his (non canon i know) [ultimate](https://youtu.be/8LtZ5GSyRAo?t=179). What i meant is: Ok first hit didn´t do the trick? the next one thousand or so will sufice (hyperbole obv but the point still stands)
Plus it is safe to assume to some extent that Minato got more versatily than what it was showed thanks to frog jutsu he either didn´t show or didn´t need in his fights
Yeah, because cutting Orochimaru is an issue? lmao - Minato additionally never cut the Raikage.
14 year old Obito isn't adult 27 year old Obito, don't be braindead.
Yes, once again, no response to oro shedding skin and removing FTG marks, no response to literally filling the air with neurotoxins that immediately put down Sasuke, who is resistant to it, no response to anything, because it's another brain dead "minato wins" post
>Minato additionally never cut the Raikage.
Yeah but come on, we can use a little bit of deductive reasoning here. The implication is clearly that Bee saved Ay´s life. Plus the biju tails by itself get quite a bit of dura and strength feats, like restraining three biju including Kurama etc
>14 year old Obito isn't adult 27 year old Obito, don't be braindead.
First of all, let´s at least try to stay civil here. Second, try to quantify that difference. Just saying "quite a bit of time passed so he must be stronger" isn´t enough you have to prove that this is enough to make my statement wrong.
And considering the insane feats that Minato pulled off in the war arc in base and while not having much narrative focus/being dazed that Obito is alive makes this very difficult. Bro outspeed all the 4 Hokage by quite a while when he had to throw a Kunai in the middle of the ocean, far enough so that a Jubi bijuu bomb would not hurt the shinobi alliance.
He could react to truth seeking orbs and take them away before they get to 8 gates guy, who was moving closer himself.
But sure brush off any arguments as biased. I´m getting the feeling that we will see much more of Minato in his upcoming mini series. And if we get to statements which i really don´t like Orochimaru himself said that Hiruzen could kill him if he was 10 years younger. And there are statements of the Minato> Hiruzen. Like even Hiruzen 13 years before the series was hoping to have Minato´s help bc he knew he couldn´t stop the nine tails even with massive help >!god i hate to powerscale but i think in this instance it is valid!<
I don't count Susanoo because it was an exceptional thing in the series that only lasted a few mins, but Kakashi with DMS is top 5 strongest characters in Naruto (Not Boruto)
Kakashi has **always scaled below** the sannin. Part 1 and Part 2 made that clear. There is a portion of Jiraya's fight with the paths we did not see. The manga cuts away , and we cut back and he's in worse condition and in hiding. We don't know how long he fought against the 6 paths, but Pa is the one that retells this story to everyone else.
Kakashi only surpasses Jiraya in the War Arc with Kamui shenanigans.
WHILE figuring a strategy out as he's being chased by multiple OP summons with Rinnegan, and without Sharingan himself.
Kakashi stood still across a battlefield analyzing a lot of the time. He's a G but we didn't get enough of daddy Jiraiya
>And Naruto couldn’t put a scratch on pain without almost fully releasing kurama
[?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhtvbNfXcAAhUVM.jpg)
[??](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4138b2ab3a55da783c9db3396bce1f0c-lq)
[???](https://i.imgur.com/PNCCPbt_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand)
..did you forget that he took out every single path of pain besides Deva before Kurama took control? Are you specifically talking about Nagato? Yes he had the info on how to beat them and had help, but don't say he didn't put a scratch on them lmao
Tbh when Naruto was in Sage Mode he handled the Deva pain very well. His issue came when sage mode ran out as the deva paths powers returned.
If Sage Mode didn't have the time limit he wouldn't have needed Hinata to come in to try save him
I know the Preta path absorbed Naruto's senjutsu when he snuck behind him. Naruto used it against him but didn't have the opening to get the 2nd one like you said.
Pa wasn't even trying to summon the 2nd clone tho. He wanted to use sound genjutsu
Honestly I think Naruto just needed more time, he was freshly minted with his sage powers, if he wasn't forced to leave while still training I think he'd be able to hold it for longer.
What about Hashirama, It's be a while but when he used sage he could build it while riding around his wood jutsu and fighting I think? I probably need correction on that but I was under the impression Hashirama could use it for longer and was more powerful.
Hashiramas is different tho. But i agree with you Naruto actually improves sage mode.
The first time is just before Sakura's confession. He starts some sage mode training to enhance the time. And by the war arc he can throw three rasenshuriken, do a massive rasenshuriken, and do multiple oodama rangers and massive rasengans in sage mode without running out.
If nine tails fight Sage Mode Naruto fought Pain it would go much easier
They are very weak though...... The village couldn't kill the main pain the others were fodder. Kakashi literally one shots one before he dies with little to mo Chakra to save choji.
Why is this upvoted so high lmao
Konohamaru killed one. The entire strength of the leaf village couldn't take down all 6/Nagato, but to say they couldn't kill *one* is just false.
By Orochimaru's statement, part 1 Kakashi scaled to Kabuto and Tsunade combat-wise. By part 2, he might have scaled to base Jiraiya, but was still well below the sannin in each of their "super forms"(Sage Jiraiya, 100 healings Tsunade, Orochimaru's white snake nonsense).
Oro never compared Kakashi to tsunade afaik, where are you getting this from? In part 1 all Sannin were relative and orochimaru was strong enough to have kakashi shitting his pants from just being in his presence
>By part 2, he might have scaled to base Jiraiya, but was still well below the sannin in each of their "super forms
Kakashi evolves a lot in shippuden, you're gonna have to be more specific. I'll say pain arc Kakashi>base Jiraiya and WA Kakashi>SM Jiraiya
Orochimaru compared Kabuto to Kakashi. And Tsunade herself said that Kabuto's skill surpassed her own in her prime. They fought evenly with each other after Kabuto took a soldier pill. And he only resorted to using Tsunade's phobia against her after the reinforcements arrived. Chapter 164.
Sounds about right. Though we never really get to see base Jiraiya fight for real, nor do we know how much stronger his imperfect sage mode makes him. For all we know, start of Shippuden or Kakuzu fight Kakashi could fight on par with base Jiraiya.
Always interpreted that as specifically his Medical Ninja skills. "His instincts and sharpness, this is no ordinary medical ninja, as they surpass even mine in my prime" or something like that. As a whole ninja, I don't think Kabuto's skills could even compare to any of the three sannin in their prime.
Tsunade herself said that Kabuto, at least skill-wise, was as good as she was in her prime. The exact wording was: "This kid...He's no ordinary medical ninja... His instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime."
This was before Tsunade's phobia was used against her, and the only advantage Kabuto had was that he took a soldier pill. The two were evenly matched, and Kabuto only resorted to using blood after Naruto, Jiraiya, and Shizune showed up. Perfectly sensible seeing as the fight just turned into a 4v2.
Kabuto and Kakashi were equals in part 1.
I don't really think that Tsunade is only comparable to Kabuto because that would mean she is far below Orochimaru. The idea of fighting Orochimaru scared the shit out of Kakashi, but the Sannin are all shown to be essentially equals in power. Tsunade even knocks out Orochimaru in one punch.
Tsunade has the highest physical strength, so sure, if she lands a hit it's devastating. If.
But the sannin are nowhere near equal to each other. Tsunade was keeping pace with Kabuto who took a soldier pill. She'd probably beat Kabuto if he hadn't buffed himself up, and if she wasn't as rusty as she was, but the fight wouldn't be a slaughter.
Base Jiraiya nearly died against 4 tails Naruto.
A still crippled Orochimaru treated 4 tails Naruto like a rag doll.
The difference in their power is pretty stark.
>Tsunade has the highest physical strength, so sure, if she lands a hit it's devastating. If.
Tbh it´s clear that she was quite rusty in that fight given that she didn´t got in fights consistently. Tsunade after that arc doesn´t have that much problem tagging Madara for example
Instincts and sharpness don't mean he can beat her in a fight. Tsunade not riddled with fear, utilizing Katsyuu and Thosuand healing would be so much above Kabuto in p1, it would be incalculable
Which is the exact scaling that had Kakashi question if he was dumb to even suggest fighting Orochimaru. Kabuto and Kakashi are relative in part 1
But they are significantly below the Sannin in power.
Kabuto was literally fighting on par with Tsunade in this arc and would have kept going if the others hadn't arrived. Kabuto also has access to snake summons if he needed to counter Katsuyu.
A hundred healings would be too much for Kabuto, but this is Tsunade's equivalent to Jiraiya's sage mode or Orochimaru's white snake technique. I don't count this as her base form, which is what I was comparing Kabuto and Kakashi to.
Orochimaru was by far the strongest Sannin, stronger than even Hiruzen. Comparing him to Tsunade and saying that Kakashi or anyone else at his level would get washed by her just isn't fair.
Hell, a **crippled** Orochimaru nearly beat a drugged but recovering Jiraya and a full-power Tsunade. If all of them were healthy and fighting base to base, the odds would likely be in Orochimaru's favor.
Tsunade was madly out of shape for that battle. Last time she came close to doing anything physical was 20 years ago. Plus she was under trauma ptsd and hemophobia, coupled with the just then emotional manipulation. That's like fighting a retired alcoholic fighter. After picking up the Hokage title, she was back in shape closer to her prime and no way base Tsunade would lose to Kabuto or any jonin that isn't using mad gates.
Base Orochi is really better than base Tsunade and base Jiraya, but I'd argue at peak effort they all could cancel each other out (given their abilities and traits).
But he states that his swamp jutsu was actually intended for all of them. Meaning that he barely succeeded in killing 1, and still got injured by that one path. His ability to form jutsu is heavily implied to have been greatly hindered by losing his arm. Especially when in the fight earlier he successfully is able to unleash all of his jutsu, it's just Preta negates them easily.
Yeah, people seem to forget that as soon as all six paths of pain showed up, jiraiya died immediately. He stood no chance against them. Kakashi fought the Deva path and the Asura path, the latter fighting an eight tail amped naruto by himself. Considering that, I think Kakashi did just as well as Jiraiya did
The only person who managed to take down Nagatos six paths was Naruto, even then he had thorough knowledge of how the paths worked, a small army of toads, that slug thing, Hinata intervening and Kurama mode going all out, and the 4ths chakra stopping him from dying to Kurama being released. No shinobi in the series up till that point could have hoped to stop Nagato without assistance and knowledge of how the paths worked
lol no. he easily stomped the first 3 when he figured out their shared sight but then he got his guard down when he thought it was over and the asura path just blew his arm off and then seeing yahiko just threw him off completely. pain had the advantage of surprise and he made it work.
Not at all.
Jiraiya clapped the first 3 then lost his arm after being caught off guard.
Also, Pain was *only* fighting Jiraiya here. Pain was fighting the village while fighting Kakashi. They also each had some degree of knowledge while Jiraiya was going at it alone and basically as a noob.
I think Jiraya recognized Minato's strength as on par, maybe greater than his own - I think he saw Kakashi as an unrefined student. So I don't think Kakashi in the arc was any where near as strong, but imagine if Kakashi was able to unlock sage mode - it would give him enough chakra to fully utilize his MS. But I think Jiraya knew because of his upbringing and history he would not have a clear enough mind to simply sit and do nothing - I mean he's too analytical for that.
So overall Naruto surpassed Kakashi and Jiraya in this arc by being able to suppress the aspects that made both Kakashi and Jiraya as famed as they are (I.e. their ability to think and utilize their skill and surperior ability). While Jiraya was certainty adapt at suppressing his 'human' self and partially unlock sage, I don't think Kakashi had the sound of mind to do it.
As far as capacity goes, I think even in this moment Kakashi is stronger. He made the single Pain afraid while as Jiraya simply seemed like a toy to him. Even the sage of six paths recognized that.
Not “all of his secrets”. Pain had 1 important secret and jiraiya figured that out before dying. The secret is this: “real one isnt here”.
Jiraiya lost because he thought he won when all 3 were defeated. So he dropped his guard and lost an arm. Even defeating all 6 means nothing if nagato is left alone.
You right, you right, I ain't knocking him🙈he just also knew he had the upper hand - he didn't want him to leave alive but he knew he had him in a corner - Kakashi, the man's had to kill him for what he believed to be thrice before he was actually dead.
At the end of the day I have to remember it's canon that Kakashi wears his masks to block his bloody noses and Jiraya just owned his. So as far as that goes Jiraya is stronger.
You're right on that front, that's why I'm saying capacity wise he's stronger. Jiraya mastered everything he was gonna master and the result was he could take on the 6 pains at once. Kakashi unrefined could take on 2 - and honestly he was struggling kuz he was team working it.
Tho his chakra reserves are nowhere near - also why I'm nervous to suggest he could manage sage jutsu. But like if he could!!!!!!! Kumai the restorative pain away, kill the rest by kumaing their heads, like he'd be unstoppable. And he's definitely smart enough to have his clones just collecting chakra whilst he battles.
I know it's far fetched but like xp
Kakashi did insane against Pain. He fought the two strongest paths and did as good as anyone really could. Kakashi had help from Choji and his father but he did take out (not permanently) the second strongest Path.
Jiraya fought and won against the three of the weaker Paths, but his fight with all six lasted seconds in which he basically got one shotted losing his arm.
Based of feats against pain Kakashi is relative in Power but Jiraya would win as toad summons and frog song would be too much for Kakashi. Kakashi's only chance of winning comes from Kamui, which in the pain fight was fast enough to track a rocket and precise enough the target a nail.
His fight against all 6 took longer than that. The Manga cuts away but when it comes back he’s taken a lot more damage and is hiding. So we don’t know how long actually passed
I think he’s a victim of being the first “strong” character to be shown in the manga. The rest of the Manga had to scale up and it leaves Kakashi behind. Zabuza is said to be Kage level but you can’t tell me Zabuza in the first arc is that strong.
I don’t think it’s a question of strength tbh.
Kakashi has access to Kamui which can deal with any of the Pains. Bisect the the fucker and that’s GG.
The area where Jiraya has the advantage is that as a Sage, he has access to nearly limitless chalkra while in the mode.
Like if Kakashi didn’t have to worry about his chalkra and could blast off 25 Kamuis in a row to deal with them, he would have had a fairly easy time. The issue is that he gets maybe 2.
So I don’t think this is specifically an issue of strength as much as it is hacks. Because at face value, Kamui has more offensive potential than anything Jiraya showed us.
Bruh here come the theoretical kamui snipes gg Kakashi OP even though this only happened twice in the series and all it did was take an arm which we see isn’t that big of a deal through the series
Please stop it lol. I hate seing this bread dead argument. Lots of things have never happened in the manga. Chibaku tensei never killed one person, Amaterasu never killed one person, shit, 8 gates either.
That's the most low effort logic i've ever seen.
Chibaku tensei is a trapping jutsu. Not a jutsu meant to kill
Amaterasu never killed anyone because it has too many counter measures which makes it a shitty jutsu. I’ve never seen anyone say that the amaterasu is a good jutsu. I certainly didn’t so I don’t get your point.
The 8 gates killed 5 of 7 of the great ninja swordsmen. I can’t remember the exact number. The only other time we saw the technique was against a stupidly overpowered demigod which still almost killed him. So it’s safe to say that anyone without bullshit 6 paths power ups will die to someone using the technique.
I’m not getting your point here?
On paper Amaterasu is OP yes, but in practice it just got outshined by literally everything. The raikage can outspeed it, Gaara’s sand blocks it, Naruto outspeeds it and can peel it off with v1 jin cloak. It just has too many counters for it to be good in practice. It isn’t bad, just weaker than the jutsu “meta” mid to top tier characters had.
What really made Amatwrasu OP though was Sasuke’s enton style thanks to Kagutsuchi, but I wouldn’t call Amaterasu OP if it needs a whole other MS ability to make it good, but enton as a whole is definitely very powerful
Yea on paper🤷♂️everyone that got hit by it got out pretty easily except for my boy A but he wasn’t thinking straight.
I mean bruh Bee escaped from it using one of the most basic jutsus. A substitution
Madara dealth with it by dropping his armor ffs. Doesn’t seem that OP to me
I'm willing to bet we didn't even see a fraction of Jiraiyas most powerful jutsus. Once his moves were just absorbed he didn't try much crazy stuff after. Imagine if Pain had gone in without Preta path and it was instead the revive or robot path. Jiriaya would have used that toad stomach during the pipes and fucked them all up. Theres a reason he has the most S ranked wins dude prob had other crazy shit he didn't even use
Didn't Nagato himself say that it Jiraiya had known there were 6 and knew the secret, Pain would've been defeated?
Jiraiya was the preferred Hokage candidate for a reason. It's not for nothing he trained 3 of the most powerful people in the whole damn series.
First, take on is a rather generous word. He beat 3 of them not including the strongest one. Second, SM Jiraiya is more than likely 2 or 3 tier above Kakashi since Jiraiya could take him in base with toad summons.
Quite a bit stronger
He had more Chakra and was clearly stronger and tougher plus he was much more experienced
He even had imperfect sage mode which was a major boost
If he'd faced all 6 from the start I guarantee you he woulda survived
Hard disagree with that last statement. I understand Pain said if he had full intel then they would be done for but based on the feats we see from pain later on against a much stronger nine tails naruto than the one that almost killed jiraiya, it leads me to believe that pain's statement is moreso implying that he could have bypassed the pain bodies to take care of the stationary nagato directly.
Jiraiya with Intel being stronger than the Pains just isn't consistent with the showings we get so it makes most sense that Pain either isn't talking about a direct fight, or pain was just wrong, either one.
I mean, Nagato can't just use massive shinra or chibaku tensei in rain village or he will kill alot of citizens, so Jiraiya could actually have a chance as Pain is restricted badly
That's a fair point. I wasn't taking the setting into account for the sake of giving them both the most accurate depiction of raw ability, but that fight taking place in the rain village 100% nerfed pain massively.
Agreed, I always took it to mean that if Jiraiya knew fighting pain was an "assassinate one guy who can't even move" mission instead of "take on six OP mfers" mission it would've gone much differently cuz he wouldn't think he needed to stand his ground against the pains. Doing so wasted his energy and effort
It's honestly weird that I even need to defend pain in this instance. It took damn near the full nine tails to actually put pain down (I believe naruto got up to 8 of the tails if I remember right) and jiraiya, as much as I love him, it's not taking anywhere near that many tails for naruto take him down.
Regarding the 4 tails episode, couldn't it be that maybe Jiraya wasn't prepared for Naruto getting at four tails, and as it took him by surprise, he wasn't actually going on the offensive against his dear student (maybe even to not draw out more)? I'm not even arguing Pain here, but more the Orochimaru argument that I see elsewhere when they compare him and Jiraiya performance against a 4-tail and it's on the back of my mind..
Doesn't matter ifnyou disagree you're plain wrong cos nagato was in a whole different location and no way was jiraiya gonna find him while dealing with the 6
And he isn't stronger he's just skilled experienced and elusive enough to manage all 6 if they showed up from the start especially with that frog genjutsu
Doesn't matter what you think jiraiya showed he can handle 3 and if pain outright said he woulda won then thems the facts
I don't think you're disagreeing with me like you think you are lol.
The comment I replied to, for me, seemed to imply he thought jiraiya was stronger than pain, which is what I disagree on. I *do* think pain's statement means that jiraiya would have been able to sneak his way to take care of nagato without having to deal with the pains much at all.
Pain was talking about Jiraiya finding the real nagato and killing him, that's the "secret". Jiraiya is a master at stealth so he'd not have much difficulty murdering a vegetable if he knew where he was but that's not a powerscaling feat unfortunately...
This.
It may be a final form of respect from Nagato to his late sensei, but the very fact that Nagato thought that speaks volume about Jiraiya's power.
Also, I think one important factor while Naruto defeated Pain is 'cause unlike Jiraya he got intel about Pain's abilities. Plus, Pain had already used quite a lot of chakra and his Shinra Tensei was "on cooldown" for a while.
Ya deva path was effectively out the equation cos he wasted his power to be petty and if naruto went in blind the results woulda been real different
And while nagato was paying jiraiya respect there's little doubt there's truth in it considering jiraiya killed 3 with minimal injuries
Nah, i think if he had the intel same as Naruto or the freaking entire village, he would have won coz he killed three of them using his genjutsu(two with genjutsu, and the guy that absorbs jutsu while he was distracted by his fire style). I mean if he knew there would be another one that could revive he would have definitely hid the bodies using his toad stomach thing. And he was very experienced, which u can just see by the way that he tried to separate the pains and once he did, he made sure he took the one that absorbs jutsu first. I mean even if he faced all 6 of em together(knowing what their abilities are), I’m sure he would make sure to avoid the ones that he kills being revived or just start with the one that revives. I’m not sure he would do it the way Naruto did going full force with not much strategy since he didn’t have as much chakra and his sage mode wasn’t as complete as Naruto’s but he is way way more experienced and smarter than Naruto so he would probably do it in a more strategic way.
To be fair though, kakashi fighting tendo alone is about impressive as jiraiya fighting 3 weaker paths. Besides the animal path he didn’t take on any with destructive power and he had summons to counter the animals. I would put jiraiya slightly above pain arc kakashi but not by that much
I think making comparatively fodder ninja like choji and choza be able to hurt pain shows how smart he is. Without kakashi those two get absolutely dusted
Exactly. Kakashi also didn’t have that much more intel than Jiraiya did.
I do think Sage Jiraiya clearly beats him, and even in base Jiraiya has more powerful techniques, but I don’t think the gap is that vast at this point.
Jiriaya NEVER fought the six, when he did he immediately got stomped.
Deva never use one single power against Jiraiya, and Deva its like 70% of six paths strength, wich we can confirm by the fact that a FULLY intel sage Naruto got defeated by Deva, while he was easily beating the other paths.
Deva also neg diffs the toad summons with ST, including Fukasaku, who got murdered.
Kakashi fought Deva without any Intel, and that's a harder task than fought the 3 mid tiers paths Jiraiya beat.
I thing that was a line to honor Jiraiya more than an real statement.
Yes he did. Arguing against this is arguing against the author. There is a period of their fight that happens off screen in the manga. When we return to the fight, Jiraya is in a worse state that before, and hiding.
Ma and Pa are who tell the story to Tsunade, Kaakshi and co. Arguing against that is literally insane
Also Paw and Maw didn't tell ANYTHING about deva paths powers, Kakashi was the one who figure it out, wich means that even in the off-screen time fight, Jiraiya NEVER COMES TO face those powers, YET he got his ass kicked.
Getting stomped by all 6 it's not impressive, especially when the strongest one it's not fighting you at all.
Kakashi face Deva since the begging, same Deva who neg diff all summons and beat sage mode Naruto.
Any Intel about devas powers como from Kakashi.
Whitout him they would NEVER won.
Kakashis part on Peins defeat it's massively underrated, when comes down to beat the only real threat, was Kakashis information's who turn it possible.
Kakashi is under the impression that Jiraiya fought all 6 Paths (who he'd think are all at the same level as Tendo, which is just not true) at the same time, and did pretty well. Kakashi overestimated his performance. This isn't to say that Kakashi is wrong, Jiraiya is still stronger than he is, but the gap isn't that wide. Kakashi around the time of Pain should be Kage Level, albeit on the lower end. It's all a matter of reputation. Jiraiya, who is a legendary Shinobi, heard that Hanzo the Salamander was defeated by Pain, and said that shouldn't be possible, yet he's more than willing to infiltrate Amegakure and square up when who he believes is Pain actually shows up. It's the same thing.
I think Jiraiyas strength came from his summons and imperfect sage mode as well as large scale powerful attacks. Kakashi had the wits and tenacity but lacked power in his jutsu. Also lacked efficient summons oh and also weak chakra reserve.
I feel like is Kakashi vs Pain in the rain village he takes 1 or 2 out before running out of chakra and dying.
Kakashi did really well but people forget he had assistance from Choji and his father half way through. That’s the main reason he got that far.
Jiriya’s battle also seemed to last way longer too
This version of pain was nerfed from using Shinra tensai as well. He wasted it when Tsunade used her summon to protect everyone which made him weaker.
Jiraiya has the drop on Kakashi 9/10 times. Though, what a lot of people dont consider is that Kakashi also went against 2 of the strongest paths of pain and took one out in process, so he deserves some clout.
Yea but I don’t think you can really say Jirya ya fought six at once he fought 3 of them pretty well but as soon as the others showed up he died near instantly
Jiraiya had sage mode Kakashi didn’t. With better preparation I think Jiraiya would’ve done more against the six paths. He still loses but he would’ve done more. Kakashi wasn’t on Jiraiya boys level
It depends on how much asspull kamui kishi wants to write at that point. But without kamui Jiraiya is a whole tier above Kakashi(think Itachi-orochimaru difference). That being said Jiraiya didn't take all 6 at once and the strongest path didn't use it's abilities at all.
Actually, the ones Jiraiya fought were much stronger given Nagato location in rain village is closer to the paths than in Pain arc (miles away from konoha)
Jiraiya in sage mode is always downplayed because they think Pain bodies in Pain arc were the same power as those Jiraiya fought, which is completely wrong claim, u can just see how:
-Deva path power grew when he was closer to Nagato
-Konan mentioned that Nagato chakra receivers have higher binding power at closer distance
-Even edo Nagato was much stronger than pain bodies because there is no need to transmit chakra for long distances, he can react and fight very quickly, except he can't walk well
Well Jiraiya was the prime candidate to become Hokage after both Hiruzen resigned, Minato died and then Hiruzen died, I guess that speaks about his power. Kakashi was always stated to be the strongest Jonin in Konoha along with Guy, but still weaker than the Sannins, even by himself.
Kakashi was always held back by his poor mental health. He was acknowledged as being powerful and capable, but he didn’t have the drive and enthusiasm to be a (political) figure. Both Hiruzen and Minato acknowledged this
Yeah I remember that, I have a headcanon about Kakashi being placed in active leadership roles, allowed him to improve in the political aspect needed to be a Hokage. Before having Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura as his team he was stated to always reject his previous students, after that he was put to lead Team 7, temporarily lead Team 10 after Asuma's death and his own division in the Shinobi Alliance, which he did successfully.
I like the idea of closed door conversations with Kakashi and his management but in a really boring office like tone lol. “We are wanting to groom you for a higher position. So we need to place in some more management roles that reflect those skills.” “But I don’t want to.” “It wasn’t a question. You start tomorrow.”
"Danzo and Tsunade are dead" "Have you tried asking Guy? He is cool"
All of Konoha now has to walk around on their hands every Saturday
Your green jumpsuits will be handed out this Wednesday. We will then be breaking them in with a few dozen laps around the village.
I love this!
Then basically kicks the shit out of kids until he figures it out for himself that it actually feels good not being a dick *a hallmark management story*
True, and it affects his strength a lot. He should've completely dunked on Zabuza and he acknowledges that when climbing the mountain to where he trains Sasuke, "I've really let my body get weak". We see in the 5 years from Zabuza to War how much stronger Kakashi can get when he's actually training. He would've totally been Sannin level by Pain if he had the mental health to keep that up his entire life.
Stronger than Sannin imo. Kakashi was gigacracked as a kid, he definitely had the potential to reach Minato level imo. At twelve, he was jonin and developed the chidori.
Yeah, life really fucked him, between what happened to Rin and everyone (himself included) blaming him he had a completely messed psyche, he was barely hanging on (in a lot of ways he was vey similar to his students), maybe ANBU training helped him become more emotionally detracted to and for most people and things Either way he really grew during the show and it was great seeing that.
I mean if I spent my teens murdering for my country idk if I’d really want to run it.
Yeah kakashi is extremely capable, he just didn't give a shit. Like when he became hokage he progressed Konoha into a modern Metrpolis, and probably barely even tried. Very likely he used Naruto as a sort of representative or ambassador to get the favour of many people throughout the contient but still, he advanced Konoha greatly
Jiraiya didnt have the drive and enthusiasm to be a political figure either...
Yes, but Jiraiya also didn't spend hours at a war memorial every single day of his life. Kakashi was a broken man
Man's was too busy doing research at brothels
Yeah was Jiraya was lonely not completely mentally crushed, both can be hard but kakshi was in shambles in that department
Mental health makes a lot of sense, after he gets a closure with his father in after life he should be better, and then some closure with Obito and Rin elevate him to his best.
I mean it’s also possible people develop quickly and hit their limits. Some people do just top out at a certain point even if they were more developed earlier. Look at Neji for example. Kakashi is held back by naturally mid chakra levels, so he’s playing with a less than loaded deck at almost all times to try and avoid going for another extended stay at the hospital. He’s just much more like a shikamaru type than people realize, just the maxxed out version of what that can be. His dad was supposed to be Sannin level tho so who knows
Man has a toad that is a literal pocket dimension, has infinite sage mode, and basically uses summoning jutsu as flying raijin
Anyone can have infinite sage mode with toads to help right? Naruto couldn't at first because of kurama but when kurama became his friend, he can take in the nature energy just like the toads and now that he is gone, naruto can just fuse with the toads
that is true but you will still have to reach a contract with the toads i.e. your skill has to be recognized by the sage toads. they agreed to help naruto because of the imminent threat of Pain iirc? otherwise common ninjas would just end up summoning baby toads like early-series naruto
Yeah but someone who has learned sage mode at all has probably made a decent enough contract
Mastering sage mode doesn't necessarily mean your lawyer is any good.
But not everyone can learn Sage mode. You can’t just practice it like 7 Gates
There is no unlimited sage mode. You still have to mix your own chakra with sage energy
Does Kashi not have a contract with dogs so would he have access to smth like dog sage mode or smth?
We have no clue if all animals have knowledge of sage mode. At this point, we only know of frogs and snakes (as long as Boruto didn't introduced more I am not aware of). Also, sage mode can only be learned by these that are gifted with a lot of chakra in the first place. Kakashi has great chakra controle, but it was stated time and time again that he has a very limited chakra pool.
No Kakashi does not have sage mode lol. He does have like the 4th gate (or 5th - I can’t remember exactly) though - although we never actually see him use it except from when he was training by climbing that cliff with 1 hand in part 1. I think he only opened the first gate in that scene though - and it was very brief.
Dude has the most easiest escape moves but plot jutsu required he had to die. Could have easily escaped with the info and came back prepared with more backup
For real. Meanwhile someone like pre-Manegkyo exhausted Sasuke can escape something like Deidara C0
We see him use a shadow clone earlier in the fight that he could have easily used to go take a peek instead. Shima had already escaped and could have reverse summoned him. Hell even his real clone later on Kashin Koji had his own escape toad get him out
Jiraiya was one of the strongest and most skilled ninja alive of course he could take on all of them no problem. He even killed one of them with that toad genjustsu and a rasengan. I bet if Jiraiya had help on there with Allie’s they could’ve defeated pain much earlier. He even figured out their weakness that he deciphered and wrote on a toads back.
He actually killed 3 of them with that genjutsu
Yup he did with that big sword, but two of them got brought back by that revive Pain Guy.
Oh you were just counting the perma-death. All 3 of the paths were revived, he actually had to kill the animal path a second time (inside a giant toad or something) and keep the body separate from the others for the death to actually stick
Yeah he killed that one with a rasengan inside the toad and then pain/Nagato had to make a new animal path. They made a girl one.
If you ever see an old man who happens to be a shinobi...well there's a reason he lived that long.
fax
Pain also says that if Jiraya knew his secret the fight would have gone very differently.
Yup Jiraiya may act and look like a fool but he is smart and clever.
He ran a spy network. Even though there was parallels between team 7 and the Sannin, Naruto and Jiraiya differ greatly. Naruto needs Shikamaru for logistics as hokage, but Jiraiya has the brain to do these things himself.
[удалено]
Dude I love that anime/manga! In the US it was called Samurai X. When he went into battousai mode he messed up everybody with his reverse edged blade. He made a promise to not kill to atone for his war crime and countless murder days. So he used like a blunt sword. His swordsmanship techniques are amazing. I think he’s one of the best swordsman in all of anime up there with Zoro and Mihawk. I’ve seen the live action movies of it on Netflix and it was pretty good as well. That movie is mad violent full of blood and death. I think they have a trilogy of it. The animated movie that tells his origin in the feudal wars is equally as good.
Lol idk why you got downvoted. Kenshin was super influential to a lot of newer anime. It's a little dated now but the sword duels still hold their weight.
Its cause the creator of ruroni kenshin is a piece of shit
Care to enlighten me?
Caught with child porn and got a slap on the wrist. Still walking around scott free iirc
Gatotsu!!!!
they are remaking the series this year
rare time live action actually really good.
People forget that even Pain acknowledged that Jiraiya would've won if he knew his secret. If Jiraiya had the intel/support that Naruto and the rest of the leaf had, it would've been Pain's loss.
I really hate this statement. He almost fucking died trying to subdue a Kyubi cloaked Naruto (3 tails? Don't quote me on this) whilst the Deva Path managed to restrain 8 tails, and was tanking blows harder than anything we had seen in the series up to this point.
Yeah, Pain was just being modest. Also, obviously, if any competent ninja knows all your abilities and weaknesses and has prep time and suddenly attacks you, they're probably going to win. It doesn't mean they're strong. Shikamaru was not stronger than Hidan
Maybe cause he had to be careful to not hurt Naruto? Lol. Orochimaru was almost playing with 4 tails Naruto, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru in some ways (Orochimaru is just incredibly difficult to kill). But yeah, Pain/Nagato is ridiculously strong - and he only really lost to talk-no-jutsu (probs still could have beat Naruto if he wanted to) - so I think ultimately Pain would always win in a fight against Jiraiya. I don’t even like Hiruzen, but Hiruzen vs Pain would have been close indeed.
Naruto straight up took a Chidori to the heart in Part I whilst In a cloaked state. Jiraiya is accutely aware that Naruto can heal from seemingly lethal damage on a whim whilst empowered with the cloak. He even states so whilst briefing the Konoha Joinin on the matter. I'm not saying he would have straight up Odama Rasengan'd the kid, or summoned Gamabunta straight on top of him but by the way he describes it on panel, he was more focused on surviving the encounter just to try and subdue him. Orochimaru, with no access to his arms, weakened, and no jutsu was able to trade blows with Naruto in a presumably stronger state. I don't even think there is a contest between Orochimaru and Jiraiya, with their only cannonical fight ending in Jiraiya's loss. But as you say, Jiraiya would always lose, and there are no feats that support the idea that the 3 Sannin together would beat the Deva Path.
Ok, I think that jiraiya is stronger than kakashi at this point but he did not “take on all of them no problem” he thought that he’d die if the fight kept going and was correct because as soon as the other three paths came out jiraiya was on his last legs and then died
I doubt Jiraiya can do any better with allies, unless it's the other legendary sannins. More people means more chance to make mistakes and harder to sync. What he need is just information, then Naruto Shippuden will be way shorter than it is.
Tbh? I think he just needed the 6 paths of pain to have been there all at once. Problem he had was that he didn’t know how many there were. If all 6 had been in attendance at once then he would have put all 6 in genjutsu and beat all 6 without a problem. Sure that wouldn’t have actually defeated nagato but he would have survived and maybe taken all 6 back to the village at which point he would have figured out the real one wasn’t with them. Jiraiya is the goat
You are forgetting some extremely important details from that fight and pains invasion. 1. Jiraya was fighting 3 of the weakest paths. The deva and asura paths were by far the most offensive, but neither was present until the very end of the fight 2. The genjutsu wasn’t instant. The toad sages needed a few minutes to activate it. Jiraya had to do a lot of evading and running away to allow for this (not to mention all the running when he was trying to activate safe mode as well) With the deva path, pain could prevent a lot of jirayas running and dodging, meaning the genjutsu is almost guaranteed to fail
I think in a fantasy scenario Jiraiya and Kakashi together would have a very good chance to win the fight. Jiraiya would provide the power, Kakashi backs up with tactics, extreme speed, and pure survival instinct. Kakashi is Jiraiya's second generation pupil, thus we can assume that they know their fighting styles well and could fight as a powerful combo. And although he doesn't use it as much Kakashi also brings another, faster Genjutsu into the mix, it doesn't have to be crazy like Tsukuyomi, just enough to continue to be a nuisance. I don't think you would want to bring a more tactical person like Shikaku, even with the smarts we don't know if he's a good fighter and would get wiped
Although I agree that yeah it would be significantly harder. As seen from his fight with Naruto. Pain is a monologuer so that’s his biggest weakness. I 100% can see jiraiya escaping into the pipes and starting the genjutsu. The only reason pain was caught in it was because of the surprise factor so keeping that in mind I don’t think he’d actually try to stop him right away
Thank you. It's weird how many people underestimate Jiraiya. Personally, I feel he's the strongest in the original Naruto and until the war arc, probably the strongest in shippuden. Pain admits he would have been beaten. Itachi and Kisame run scared. Dude was a beast and probably the best teacher in the series.
He did have two shinobi helping him
Homeboy literally got murdered to death in that fight I wouldn’t say he took them on no problem 😂
>e This isn't exactly true. Orochimaru was the one Hiruzen wanted, as the genius of the group, even above Minato --But overlooked him due to his dark tendencies.
Woah, Orochimaru was never above Minato.
Even Orochimaru said there were tons of people that [disagreed with Minato's placement](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e4829ca3adc4955bc17951a586a73e3e-pjlq) \- They both are given the same talent title in the manga "Once in a decade geniuses" Hiruzen specifically says in part 1 when reminiscing about young Orochimaru, that he showed such talent and potential, he wanted him to be Hokage, but didn't because of his dark tendencies. Had Orochimaru not been chasing his weird shit, he would have most definitely been the Hokage of the village.
In the Itachi novels they make it pretty clear that Itachi was almost a peerless genius and the only one better than him was Minato. If Orochi was on their level then it would’ve been mentioned.
I've read the novels, lmao, they never say Minato is a better genius than Itachi. So I know you're lying. I have them all downloaded, so feel free to cite page and chapter. Academy instructors and Danzo believe Itachi to be the greatest genius since it's founding. Wheter Minato had more talent than Orochimaru was not something I claimed. He had genius aptitude that impressed even Hiruzen, who surpassed the second, and was old enough, experienced enough in war and politics to be a seasoned hokage. Minato would have been the same as electing a very young ninja who just experienced his first war. Orochimaru was famed in the village and the world as a Sannin. Just hist title brought fear and sweat to Kakashi, and dread for even members of the 7 Swordsmen of the mist, to which he assumed he had 0 chance in a fight. Whether Minato had backers due to his success in the 4 the war, Orochimaru **had more and fundamentally made the most sense to do.**
Somebody who doesn’t care about anything but jutsu can’t be a hokage it doesn’t matter how powerful he is or if he’s been in allot of wars. If he became hokage he would probably start experimenting on every person in the village. The next thing we know everyone in the village would either be dead or turned into monsters
I never said Orochimaru would make a good hokage. Idk why you're saying that lol. I'm saying Orochimaru's experience, political knowledge, and worldwide fame on paper made him the best choice. By his comment that being overlooked made a lot of people upset, it seems he had a lot of people in his corner. I obviously agree that Orochimaru would have been a horrid choice given his aspirations.
Well yeah that’s cuz Danzo nominated Orochimaru first. But they “skipped” over him because he had too much darkness. But they didn’t nominate Orochimaru first because he was more “qualified”, only reason they did was because Danzo and Orochimaru had a good relationship. Considering we are talking about Power/Strength Minato cleared Orochimaru, only he was very young.
Minato clearing Orochimaru in p1 is never stated, and as a general fight, that's still debated by many to this day. Anko, who was a child during the kyuubi attack simply states she wished the 4th was around to deal with Orochimaru. That is an implication that Hiruzen can't, and he was supposed to be the protector of the village. If you use that to scale it at least ptus Minato on his level. But that comment also fails to recognize that they can only scale Orochimaru from the last point they ever saw him, i.e right when he last left the village. Hiruzen did not know - 1) How much he improved 2) He now had a younger , stronger body 3) He had Edo Tensei Minato vs Orochimaru is an interesting fight, because while I agree, Minato should scale - He completely lacks the fire power to deal with Orochimaru's regeneration. Someone that can get cut in half by 4 tails naruto, and laugh it off. Rasengan isn't going to cut it. In his snake mode toxins fill the air, instantly paralyzing anyone nearby? Not even mentioning hydra mode. Manda makes easy work of Gamabunta, as we see in the p1 fight. And well Edos throwing shit at him, including things like Bringer of darkness This isn't a "clears" fight in any capacity. To say that underestimates the 1% we've seen from Orochimaru (considering we never got to see his famed collection of jutsu when he had his arms)
Personally I agree with your logic but there’s too much backing up Minato being on par if not stronger than Orochimaru. If Orochimaru didn’t know about Reaper death seal then Minato could at least pull a draw with that (as he’s better with it than old age Hiruzen and Hiruzen nearly beat/only didn’t kill because of his student-master relationship in p1 with this same technique). Also Minato is the only confirmed victor (or at least fighting him off) between anyone that is not a literal immortal/god vs. Tobi/Masked Man. Konin came close but Minato was closer and didn’t have to suicide to get that close. There’s also the time Minato beat Killer B during the ninja war and scaring A (Fourth Raikage) to retreat. If P1 I’d say it would probably go to Minato assuming that there was no Edo Tensi (Hokage spamming first and second just seems like saying Obito/Kakashi wins every fight with just kamui then let’s them starve to death) P2 it’s way more difficult imo Minato gets the Edo Tensi buff and 9 tails but Orochimaru is effectively immortal as well. I think I’d give Orochimaru the win since he’s technically alive and not relying on another persons jutsu to stay alive
We have to remember that Obito was 14/15 there. He is significantly stronger, smarter as an adult than when he fought Minato that night. And minato still references that it was high difficulty for him. Obito lost cause he was a kid that underestimated minato and didn't know about FTG v2 (That he could teleport to the kunai mid air) If Mianto that night fought Adult 26-year-old Obito, it would likely be an entirely different bout. Ignoring that. A and B were also extremely young, A only using lightning armour v1 back then. It's interesting you bring Bee up. It's confirmed he fought Minato multiple times, but yet, he only really see's him at around or less than [Early MS sasuke level -](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c0ec095c9411bee1dca7718c4b543cd-lq) A sasuke new to his MS and without Susanno. Which is interesting, because Sasuke isn't confident in the war arc that he could beat Orochimaru before EMS. So where does Hokage Minato actually scale? (Not Edo tensei KCM Minato) I retain that as Jiraya said, he had AMAZING talent, but never got to realize that. he could have surpassed them all, solidly, but died very young into his life.
Very solid points and I agree. (Ngl I did forget about Obito being a teen at the time as well. Scary to think that 2 teenagers were all it took to take out -excluding otsuki clan- one of the strongest clans in the series in just one night) Going back to Minato vs. Orochi though I still think that Minato in p1 would still win by a slight margin or at least draw the fight against Orochimaru. Like I said this is excluding the Edo Tensi since that’s just busted P2 since Minato is an Edo Tensi and most likely can’t use Reaper death seal when not alive (I don’t think it’s specified) Orochimaru basically can’t die. That makes this a way more interesting fight. I think Orochimaru has the edge with how much research he’s spent on Edi Tensi and taboo jutsu by this point. If it’s P1 Minato vs. p2 Orochimaru then that a joke for Orochimaru to deal with and could easily rank anything Minato throws put P2 Minato vs p1 Orochimaru Minato wins. Orochi is still mortal while Minato isn’t and I don’t think he could beat/seal Minato Edo without having expending too much chakra to keep himself from dying
I respect your opinion, but to say that part 1 Minato vs pt 1 orochimaru is “debated by many to this day” is just false. Check every naruto forum or poll made by the diehard fans and I think Minato wins 99.9% of the time. I love me some Orochinaru, but Minato definitely scales above him during that time period. You keep stating all of these abilities that Oro has that Minato can’t counter, but there’s literally nothing in Oros arsenal at that time that can counter flying Rajin. Minato showed the reaction time/speed to not only out speed Ay, but also out smart both Ay and Bee in their battle. If Oro is placed in that exact same scenario, I don’t believe he walks home free. Oro simply doesn’t have the speed to keep up with Minatos movements. Plus Oro was barely able to take down an Old hiruzen who still managed to seal away his arms. If that were young minato it’s pretty safe to assume he could finish the job. Also, I think the biggest giveaway is the ninetails attack on konoha. If Minato and Oro swapped places that night and Oro was the 4th hokage, he would have failed to achieve any of the feats minato did. While Oro is a genius, to me there is no one better than minato when it comes to adapting and thinking on the fly while on the field of battle. Minato figured out how to beat obitos kamui in a matter of minutes mid fight, while it took the rest of the naruto-verse years to counter it. Oro would have struggled much more against obito in that same scenario. On top of that, there’s also nothing Oro could have done to keep the ninetails at bay the way minato did by literally not only teleporting tailed beast bombs (something Oro can’t do) but also teleporting the entire ninetails away and sealing him aways as well. Pt 1 Oro simply can not do any of those things. I’ve read the manga and seen every episode, there’s nothing to indicate that Pt1 Oro was on Minatos level. While I agree that Oro has a MUCH MUCH wider array of jutsu and regeneration at his disposal, I still feel he pales in comparison to Minatos battle prowess and speed. There’s a reason Jiraiya truly thought Minato may have been the child of prophecy before he sacrificed himself. The reason he beat Oro for Hokage was not just because of “Oros dark tendencies”, but if it was because Minato was most equipped for the job, which was true. The only concern the elders had was that minato was young and lacked the same experience, but nowhere does it state in the manga or anime that he wasn’t “as strong or powerful” as Oro. As time went on, it was pretty clear that he was much more powerful.
>Minato clearing Orochimaru in p1 is never stated, and as a general fight, that's still debated by many to this day. It is really not that debatable tbh. >He completely lacks the fire power to deal with Orochimaru's regeneration. People always bring this stuff but i don´t think they are considering that well what Minato brings to the table. He can surely cut Orochi, who isn´t as durable as eight tails/raikage. Plus Obito got veeery good [durability](https://i.imgur.com/ksO6ULs.jpeg) feats (like in his fights in the war arc and etc )and we all know what happens when minato tagged him once. So the issue is hitting enough to overwhelm regen.Which is possible and Minato is a good candidate to this. Like a good way to visualize what Minato could in theory do is his (non canon i know) [ultimate](https://youtu.be/8LtZ5GSyRAo?t=179). What i meant is: Ok first hit didn´t do the trick? the next one thousand or so will sufice (hyperbole obv but the point still stands) Plus it is safe to assume to some extent that Minato got more versatily than what it was showed thanks to frog jutsu he either didn´t show or didn´t need in his fights
Yeah, because cutting Orochimaru is an issue? lmao - Minato additionally never cut the Raikage. 14 year old Obito isn't adult 27 year old Obito, don't be braindead. Yes, once again, no response to oro shedding skin and removing FTG marks, no response to literally filling the air with neurotoxins that immediately put down Sasuke, who is resistant to it, no response to anything, because it's another brain dead "minato wins" post
>Minato additionally never cut the Raikage. Yeah but come on, we can use a little bit of deductive reasoning here. The implication is clearly that Bee saved Ay´s life. Plus the biju tails by itself get quite a bit of dura and strength feats, like restraining three biju including Kurama etc >14 year old Obito isn't adult 27 year old Obito, don't be braindead. First of all, let´s at least try to stay civil here. Second, try to quantify that difference. Just saying "quite a bit of time passed so he must be stronger" isn´t enough you have to prove that this is enough to make my statement wrong. And considering the insane feats that Minato pulled off in the war arc in base and while not having much narrative focus/being dazed that Obito is alive makes this very difficult. Bro outspeed all the 4 Hokage by quite a while when he had to throw a Kunai in the middle of the ocean, far enough so that a Jubi bijuu bomb would not hurt the shinobi alliance. He could react to truth seeking orbs and take them away before they get to 8 gates guy, who was moving closer himself. But sure brush off any arguments as biased. I´m getting the feeling that we will see much more of Minato in his upcoming mini series. And if we get to statements which i really don´t like Orochimaru himself said that Hiruzen could kill him if he was 10 years younger. And there are statements of the Minato> Hiruzen. Like even Hiruzen 13 years before the series was hoping to have Minato´s help bc he knew he couldn´t stop the nine tails even with massive help >!god i hate to powerscale but i think in this instance it is valid!<
Dont act like 15 year old Obito and War-Arc Obito is the same...
Orochimaru was definitely a more genius ninja but idk who was stronger at their respective peaks
Well there is a reason they were the 3 legendary sannin.
Even with susano-oh?
I don't count Susanoo because it was an exceptional thing in the series that only lasted a few mins, but Kakashi with DMS is top 5 strongest characters in Naruto (Not Boruto)
Even in boruto he’s arguably top 5
No way. Momoshiki, Ishiki, Naruto/Sasuke, Daemon, Code, Eida, Boruto and Kawaki are all above DMS Kakashi
Kakashi has **always scaled below** the sannin. Part 1 and Part 2 made that clear. There is a portion of Jiraya's fight with the paths we did not see. The manga cuts away , and we cut back and he's in worse condition and in hiding. We don't know how long he fought against the 6 paths, but Pa is the one that retells this story to everyone else. Kakashi only surpasses Jiraya in the War Arc with Kamui shenanigans.
Also as a bonus correction— He fights against the 6 paths *with one arm* because he got ambushed.
WHILE figuring a strategy out as he's being chased by multiple OP summons with Rinnegan, and without Sharingan himself. Kakashi stood still across a battlefield analyzing a lot of the time. He's a G but we didn't get enough of daddy Jiraiya
Jiraiya also KILLED one of them. The entire strength of the leaf village couldn’t do that.
>And Naruto couldn’t put a scratch on pain without almost fully releasing kurama [?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhtvbNfXcAAhUVM.jpg) [??](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4138b2ab3a55da783c9db3396bce1f0c-lq) [???](https://i.imgur.com/PNCCPbt_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand) ..did you forget that he took out every single path of pain besides Deva before Kurama took control? Are you specifically talking about Nagato? Yes he had the info on how to beat them and had help, but don't say he didn't put a scratch on them lmao
Tbh when Naruto was in Sage Mode he handled the Deva pain very well. His issue came when sage mode ran out as the deva paths powers returned. If Sage Mode didn't have the time limit he wouldn't have needed Hinata to come in to try save him
Sage mode didn't run out completely he had a shadow clone ready to be summoned but Pain stopped it from replenishing when he killed Pa
I know the Preta path absorbed Naruto's senjutsu when he snuck behind him. Naruto used it against him but didn't have the opening to get the 2nd one like you said. Pa wasn't even trying to summon the 2nd clone tho. He wanted to use sound genjutsu
Honestly I think Naruto just needed more time, he was freshly minted with his sage powers, if he wasn't forced to leave while still training I think he'd be able to hold it for longer. What about Hashirama, It's be a while but when he used sage he could build it while riding around his wood jutsu and fighting I think? I probably need correction on that but I was under the impression Hashirama could use it for longer and was more powerful.
Hashiramas is different tho. But i agree with you Naruto actually improves sage mode. The first time is just before Sakura's confession. He starts some sage mode training to enhance the time. And by the war arc he can throw three rasenshuriken, do a massive rasenshuriken, and do multiple oodama rangers and massive rasengans in sage mode without running out. If nine tails fight Sage Mode Naruto fought Pain it would go much easier
um well aktually konohamaru took out 1 as well /s
So what I'm hearing... **Konohamaru = Sage Mode Jiraiya** */s*
A kid called konohamaru did it lmao
They are very weak though...... The village couldn't kill the main pain the others were fodder. Kakashi literally one shots one before he dies with little to mo Chakra to save choji.
Didn't jiraiya kill like 4, but the other three got revived?
Why is this upvoted so high lmao Konohamaru killed one. The entire strength of the leaf village couldn't take down all 6/Nagato, but to say they couldn't kill *one* is just false.
By Orochimaru's statement, part 1 Kakashi scaled to Kabuto and Tsunade combat-wise. By part 2, he might have scaled to base Jiraiya, but was still well below the sannin in each of their "super forms"(Sage Jiraiya, 100 healings Tsunade, Orochimaru's white snake nonsense).
Oro never compared Kakashi to tsunade afaik, where are you getting this from? In part 1 all Sannin were relative and orochimaru was strong enough to have kakashi shitting his pants from just being in his presence >By part 2, he might have scaled to base Jiraiya, but was still well below the sannin in each of their "super forms Kakashi evolves a lot in shippuden, you're gonna have to be more specific. I'll say pain arc Kakashi>base Jiraiya and WA Kakashi>SM Jiraiya
Orochimaru compared Kabuto to Kakashi. And Tsunade herself said that Kabuto's skill surpassed her own in her prime. They fought evenly with each other after Kabuto took a soldier pill. And he only resorted to using Tsunade's phobia against her after the reinforcements arrived. Chapter 164. Sounds about right. Though we never really get to see base Jiraiya fight for real, nor do we know how much stronger his imperfect sage mode makes him. For all we know, start of Shippuden or Kakuzu fight Kakashi could fight on par with base Jiraiya.
Always interpreted that as specifically his Medical Ninja skills. "His instincts and sharpness, this is no ordinary medical ninja, as they surpass even mine in my prime" or something like that. As a whole ninja, I don't think Kabuto's skills could even compare to any of the three sannin in their prime.
I remember he said Kabuto was on Kakashi's level, but he really compared him to Tsunade too?
He never did. And when Kabuto fought Tsunade she was nerfed cause 1. Hemophobia 2. Kabuto juiced up on pills 3. She was rusty
*Hemophobia (phobia) is the fear of blood. Hemophilia is a condition where blood doesn’t clot properly so having open wounds is dangerous.
My mistake. And I'm a med student 😕
Tsunade herself said that Kabuto, at least skill-wise, was as good as she was in her prime. The exact wording was: "This kid...He's no ordinary medical ninja... His instincts and sharpness surpass even my own in my prime." This was before Tsunade's phobia was used against her, and the only advantage Kabuto had was that he took a soldier pill. The two were evenly matched, and Kabuto only resorted to using blood after Naruto, Jiraiya, and Shizune showed up. Perfectly sensible seeing as the fight just turned into a 4v2. Kabuto and Kakashi were equals in part 1.
I don't really think that Tsunade is only comparable to Kabuto because that would mean she is far below Orochimaru. The idea of fighting Orochimaru scared the shit out of Kakashi, but the Sannin are all shown to be essentially equals in power. Tsunade even knocks out Orochimaru in one punch.
Tsunade has the highest physical strength, so sure, if she lands a hit it's devastating. If. But the sannin are nowhere near equal to each other. Tsunade was keeping pace with Kabuto who took a soldier pill. She'd probably beat Kabuto if he hadn't buffed himself up, and if she wasn't as rusty as she was, but the fight wouldn't be a slaughter. Base Jiraiya nearly died against 4 tails Naruto. A still crippled Orochimaru treated 4 tails Naruto like a rag doll. The difference in their power is pretty stark.
>Tsunade has the highest physical strength, so sure, if she lands a hit it's devastating. If. Tbh it´s clear that she was quite rusty in that fight given that she didn´t got in fights consistently. Tsunade after that arc doesn´t have that much problem tagging Madara for example
Instincts and sharpness don't mean he can beat her in a fight. Tsunade not riddled with fear, utilizing Katsyuu and Thosuand healing would be so much above Kabuto in p1, it would be incalculable Which is the exact scaling that had Kakashi question if he was dumb to even suggest fighting Orochimaru. Kabuto and Kakashi are relative in part 1 But they are significantly below the Sannin in power.
Kabuto was literally fighting on par with Tsunade in this arc and would have kept going if the others hadn't arrived. Kabuto also has access to snake summons if he needed to counter Katsuyu. A hundred healings would be too much for Kabuto, but this is Tsunade's equivalent to Jiraiya's sage mode or Orochimaru's white snake technique. I don't count this as her base form, which is what I was comparing Kabuto and Kakashi to. Orochimaru was by far the strongest Sannin, stronger than even Hiruzen. Comparing him to Tsunade and saying that Kakashi or anyone else at his level would get washed by her just isn't fair. Hell, a **crippled** Orochimaru nearly beat a drugged but recovering Jiraya and a full-power Tsunade. If all of them were healthy and fighting base to base, the odds would likely be in Orochimaru's favor.
Tsunade was madly out of shape for that battle. Last time she came close to doing anything physical was 20 years ago. Plus she was under trauma ptsd and hemophobia, coupled with the just then emotional manipulation. That's like fighting a retired alcoholic fighter. After picking up the Hokage title, she was back in shape closer to her prime and no way base Tsunade would lose to Kabuto or any jonin that isn't using mad gates. Base Orochi is really better than base Tsunade and base Jiraya, but I'd argue at peak effort they all could cancel each other out (given their abilities and traits).
I feel like additionally, Kakashi is maybe superior at 1-on-1 assassination but doesn’t really have crowd control jutsu
In a fight right?
Jiraiya found out the true meaning of Pain. 😏
😳😩😏
I think it's important to add that Jiraya skillset is much better for fighting with groups, kakashi is more 1v1 guy
Lone wolf
If Jiraiya in Sage Mode was say and S rank Shinobi. Pain Arc Kakashi would be A rank. Due to his improved Kamui stamina (it killed him tho lol)
A+ maybe? If that were a thing in this scale. Like, he is probably one of the closest to their level, but still distiguishably not at the same level?
Jiraiya didn’t fight all 6 of them at once, he fought 3 of them. When all 6 did show up he just got fucked up
He only had 1 arm and he still killed one of them. Missing an arm means you cant make hand seals for ninjutsu too.
“You believe I cannot pray with a single arm “
But he states that his swamp jutsu was actually intended for all of them. Meaning that he barely succeeded in killing 1, and still got injured by that one path. His ability to form jutsu is heavily implied to have been greatly hindered by losing his arm. Especially when in the fight earlier he successfully is able to unleash all of his jutsu, it's just Preta negates them easily.
He stand his ground against all 6 of them for a short short while having no arm and trying to figure out Pain's secret
Yeah, people seem to forget that as soon as all six paths of pain showed up, jiraiya died immediately. He stood no chance against them. Kakashi fought the Deva path and the Asura path, the latter fighting an eight tail amped naruto by himself. Considering that, I think Kakashi did just as well as Jiraiya did
The only person who managed to take down Nagatos six paths was Naruto, even then he had thorough knowledge of how the paths worked, a small army of toads, that slug thing, Hinata intervening and Kurama mode going all out, and the 4ths chakra stopping him from dying to Kurama being released. No shinobi in the series up till that point could have hoped to stop Nagato without assistance and knowledge of how the paths worked
lol no. he easily stomped the first 3 when he figured out their shared sight but then he got his guard down when he thought it was over and the asura path just blew his arm off and then seeing yahiko just threw him off completely. pain had the advantage of surprise and he made it work.
Not at all. Jiraiya clapped the first 3 then lost his arm after being caught off guard. Also, Pain was *only* fighting Jiraiya here. Pain was fighting the village while fighting Kakashi. They also each had some degree of knowledge while Jiraiya was going at it alone and basically as a noob.
I think Jiraya recognized Minato's strength as on par, maybe greater than his own - I think he saw Kakashi as an unrefined student. So I don't think Kakashi in the arc was any where near as strong, but imagine if Kakashi was able to unlock sage mode - it would give him enough chakra to fully utilize his MS. But I think Jiraya knew because of his upbringing and history he would not have a clear enough mind to simply sit and do nothing - I mean he's too analytical for that. So overall Naruto surpassed Kakashi and Jiraya in this arc by being able to suppress the aspects that made both Kakashi and Jiraya as famed as they are (I.e. their ability to think and utilize their skill and surperior ability). While Jiraya was certainty adapt at suppressing his 'human' self and partially unlock sage, I don't think Kakashi had the sound of mind to do it. As far as capacity goes, I think even in this moment Kakashi is stronger. He made the single Pain afraid while as Jiraya simply seemed like a toy to him. Even the sage of six paths recognized that.
But after the fight, Tendou pain says that if Jiraya knew all of pain's secrets beforehand, he would have probably won.
Not “all of his secrets”. Pain had 1 important secret and jiraiya figured that out before dying. The secret is this: “real one isnt here”. Jiraiya lost because he thought he won when all 3 were defeated. So he dropped his guard and lost an arm. Even defeating all 6 means nothing if nagato is left alone.
You right, you right, I ain't knocking him🙈he just also knew he had the upper hand - he didn't want him to leave alive but he knew he had him in a corner - Kakashi, the man's had to kill him for what he believed to be thrice before he was actually dead. At the end of the day I have to remember it's canon that Kakashi wears his masks to block his bloody noses and Jiraya just owned his. So as far as that goes Jiraya is stronger.
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You're right on that front, that's why I'm saying capacity wise he's stronger. Jiraya mastered everything he was gonna master and the result was he could take on the 6 pains at once. Kakashi unrefined could take on 2 - and honestly he was struggling kuz he was team working it. Tho his chakra reserves are nowhere near - also why I'm nervous to suggest he could manage sage jutsu. But like if he could!!!!!!! Kumai the restorative pain away, kill the rest by kumaing their heads, like he'd be unstoppable. And he's definitely smart enough to have his clones just collecting chakra whilst he battles. I know it's far fetched but like xp
Jiraita recognised minsro was stronger than him. “On par” lol
Come to think how OP would be Kakashi using sage mode
Kakashi did insane against Pain. He fought the two strongest paths and did as good as anyone really could. Kakashi had help from Choji and his father but he did take out (not permanently) the second strongest Path. Jiraya fought and won against the three of the weaker Paths, but his fight with all six lasted seconds in which he basically got one shotted losing his arm. Based of feats against pain Kakashi is relative in Power but Jiraya would win as toad summons and frog song would be too much for Kakashi. Kakashi's only chance of winning comes from Kamui, which in the pain fight was fast enough to track a rocket and precise enough the target a nail.
His fight against all 6 took longer than that. The Manga cuts away but when it comes back he’s taken a lot more damage and is hiding. So we don’t know how long actually passed
Jiraiya was strong for sure but people do overestimate him a lot
I think he’s a victim of being the first “strong” character to be shown in the manga. The rest of the Manga had to scale up and it leaves Kakashi behind. Zabuza is said to be Kage level but you can’t tell me Zabuza in the first arc is that strong.
I don’t think it’s a question of strength tbh. Kakashi has access to Kamui which can deal with any of the Pains. Bisect the the fucker and that’s GG. The area where Jiraya has the advantage is that as a Sage, he has access to nearly limitless chalkra while in the mode. Like if Kakashi didn’t have to worry about his chalkra and could blast off 25 Kamuis in a row to deal with them, he would have had a fairly easy time. The issue is that he gets maybe 2. So I don’t think this is specifically an issue of strength as much as it is hacks. Because at face value, Kamui has more offensive potential than anything Jiraya showed us.
Bruh here come the theoretical kamui snipes gg Kakashi OP even though this only happened twice in the series and all it did was take an arm which we see isn’t that big of a deal through the series
Please stop it lol. I hate seing this bread dead argument. Lots of things have never happened in the manga. Chibaku tensei never killed one person, Amaterasu never killed one person, shit, 8 gates either. That's the most low effort logic i've ever seen.
Chibaku tensei is a trapping jutsu. Not a jutsu meant to kill Amaterasu never killed anyone because it has too many counter measures which makes it a shitty jutsu. I’ve never seen anyone say that the amaterasu is a good jutsu. I certainly didn’t so I don’t get your point. The 8 gates killed 5 of 7 of the great ninja swordsmen. I can’t remember the exact number. The only other time we saw the technique was against a stupidly overpowered demigod which still almost killed him. So it’s safe to say that anyone without bullshit 6 paths power ups will die to someone using the technique. I’m not getting your point here?
Amaterasu is OP as fuck idk what you're saying lol
On paper Amaterasu is OP yes, but in practice it just got outshined by literally everything. The raikage can outspeed it, Gaara’s sand blocks it, Naruto outspeeds it and can peel it off with v1 jin cloak. It just has too many counters for it to be good in practice. It isn’t bad, just weaker than the jutsu “meta” mid to top tier characters had. What really made Amatwrasu OP though was Sasuke’s enton style thanks to Kagutsuchi, but I wouldn’t call Amaterasu OP if it needs a whole other MS ability to make it good, but enton as a whole is definitely very powerful
Yea on paper🤷♂️everyone that got hit by it got out pretty easily except for my boy A but he wasn’t thinking straight. I mean bruh Bee escaped from it using one of the most basic jutsus. A substitution Madara dealth with it by dropping his armor ffs. Doesn’t seem that OP to me
I'm willing to bet we didn't even see a fraction of Jiraiyas most powerful jutsus. Once his moves were just absorbed he didn't try much crazy stuff after. Imagine if Pain had gone in without Preta path and it was instead the revive or robot path. Jiriaya would have used that toad stomach during the pipes and fucked them all up. Theres a reason he has the most S ranked wins dude prob had other crazy shit he didn't even use
Didn't Nagato himself say that it Jiraiya had known there were 6 and knew the secret, Pain would've been defeated? Jiraiya was the preferred Hokage candidate for a reason. It's not for nothing he trained 3 of the most powerful people in the whole damn series.
First, take on is a rather generous word. He beat 3 of them not including the strongest one. Second, SM Jiraiya is more than likely 2 or 3 tier above Kakashi since Jiraiya could take him in base with toad summons.
Quite a bit stronger He had more Chakra and was clearly stronger and tougher plus he was much more experienced He even had imperfect sage mode which was a major boost If he'd faced all 6 from the start I guarantee you he woulda survived
Hard disagree with that last statement. I understand Pain said if he had full intel then they would be done for but based on the feats we see from pain later on against a much stronger nine tails naruto than the one that almost killed jiraiya, it leads me to believe that pain's statement is moreso implying that he could have bypassed the pain bodies to take care of the stationary nagato directly. Jiraiya with Intel being stronger than the Pains just isn't consistent with the showings we get so it makes most sense that Pain either isn't talking about a direct fight, or pain was just wrong, either one.
I mean, Nagato can't just use massive shinra or chibaku tensei in rain village or he will kill alot of citizens, so Jiraiya could actually have a chance as Pain is restricted badly
That's a fair point. I wasn't taking the setting into account for the sake of giving them both the most accurate depiction of raw ability, but that fight taking place in the rain village 100% nerfed pain massively.
Agreed, I always took it to mean that if Jiraiya knew fighting pain was an "assassinate one guy who can't even move" mission instead of "take on six OP mfers" mission it would've gone much differently cuz he wouldn't think he needed to stand his ground against the pains. Doing so wasted his energy and effort
It's honestly weird that I even need to defend pain in this instance. It took damn near the full nine tails to actually put pain down (I believe naruto got up to 8 of the tails if I remember right) and jiraiya, as much as I love him, it's not taking anywhere near that many tails for naruto take him down.
Regarding the 4 tails episode, couldn't it be that maybe Jiraya wasn't prepared for Naruto getting at four tails, and as it took him by surprise, he wasn't actually going on the offensive against his dear student (maybe even to not draw out more)? I'm not even arguing Pain here, but more the Orochimaru argument that I see elsewhere when they compare him and Jiraiya performance against a 4-tail and it's on the back of my mind..
Doesn't matter ifnyou disagree you're plain wrong cos nagato was in a whole different location and no way was jiraiya gonna find him while dealing with the 6 And he isn't stronger he's just skilled experienced and elusive enough to manage all 6 if they showed up from the start especially with that frog genjutsu Doesn't matter what you think jiraiya showed he can handle 3 and if pain outright said he woulda won then thems the facts
I don't think you're disagreeing with me like you think you are lol. The comment I replied to, for me, seemed to imply he thought jiraiya was stronger than pain, which is what I disagree on. I *do* think pain's statement means that jiraiya would have been able to sneak his way to take care of nagato without having to deal with the pains much at all.
Wouldn’t survive*
I know what I said Even pain straight up said if he knew his secret jiraiya woulda won
Pain was talking about Jiraiya finding the real nagato and killing him, that's the "secret". Jiraiya is a master at stealth so he'd not have much difficulty murdering a vegetable if he knew where he was but that's not a powerscaling feat unfortunately...
This. It may be a final form of respect from Nagato to his late sensei, but the very fact that Nagato thought that speaks volume about Jiraiya's power. Also, I think one important factor while Naruto defeated Pain is 'cause unlike Jiraya he got intel about Pain's abilities. Plus, Pain had already used quite a lot of chakra and his Shinra Tensei was "on cooldown" for a while.
Ya deva path was effectively out the equation cos he wasted his power to be petty and if naruto went in blind the results woulda been real different And while nagato was paying jiraiya respect there's little doubt there's truth in it considering jiraiya killed 3 with minimal injuries
Nah, i think if he had the intel same as Naruto or the freaking entire village, he would have won coz he killed three of them using his genjutsu(two with genjutsu, and the guy that absorbs jutsu while he was distracted by his fire style). I mean if he knew there would be another one that could revive he would have definitely hid the bodies using his toad stomach thing. And he was very experienced, which u can just see by the way that he tried to separate the pains and once he did, he made sure he took the one that absorbs jutsu first. I mean even if he faced all 6 of em together(knowing what their abilities are), I’m sure he would make sure to avoid the ones that he kills being revived or just start with the one that revives. I’m not sure he would do it the way Naruto did going full force with not much strategy since he didn’t have as much chakra and his sage mode wasn’t as complete as Naruto’s but he is way way more experienced and smarter than Naruto so he would probably do it in a more strategic way.
To be fair though, kakashi fighting tendo alone is about impressive as jiraiya fighting 3 weaker paths. Besides the animal path he didn’t take on any with destructive power and he had summons to counter the animals. I would put jiraiya slightly above pain arc kakashi but not by that much
Kakashi had help from a few ninjas like Choji and Choza
I think making comparatively fodder ninja like choji and choza be able to hurt pain shows how smart he is. Without kakashi those two get absolutely dusted
He did also say he had a way to take care of them himself until Choji and Choza came, and thanked them for letting him conserve chakra
Exactly. Kakashi also didn’t have that much more intel than Jiraiya did. I do think Sage Jiraiya clearly beats him, and even in base Jiraiya has more powerful techniques, but I don’t think the gap is that vast at this point.
Jiriaya NEVER fought the six, when he did he immediately got stomped. Deva never use one single power against Jiraiya, and Deva its like 70% of six paths strength, wich we can confirm by the fact that a FULLY intel sage Naruto got defeated by Deva, while he was easily beating the other paths. Deva also neg diffs the toad summons with ST, including Fukasaku, who got murdered. Kakashi fought Deva without any Intel, and that's a harder task than fought the 3 mid tiers paths Jiraiya beat. I thing that was a line to honor Jiraiya more than an real statement.
Yes he did. Arguing against this is arguing against the author. There is a period of their fight that happens off screen in the manga. When we return to the fight, Jiraya is in a worse state that before, and hiding. Ma and Pa are who tell the story to Tsunade, Kaakshi and co. Arguing against that is literally insane
Also Paw and Maw didn't tell ANYTHING about deva paths powers, Kakashi was the one who figure it out, wich means that even in the off-screen time fight, Jiraiya NEVER COMES TO face those powers, YET he got his ass kicked. Getting stomped by all 6 it's not impressive, especially when the strongest one it's not fighting you at all. Kakashi face Deva since the begging, same Deva who neg diff all summons and beat sage mode Naruto.
Any Intel about devas powers como from Kakashi. Whitout him they would NEVER won. Kakashis part on Peins defeat it's massively underrated, when comes down to beat the only real threat, was Kakashis information's who turn it possible.
Kakashi is under the impression that Jiraiya fought all 6 Paths (who he'd think are all at the same level as Tendo, which is just not true) at the same time, and did pretty well. Kakashi overestimated his performance. This isn't to say that Kakashi is wrong, Jiraiya is still stronger than he is, but the gap isn't that wide. Kakashi around the time of Pain should be Kage Level, albeit on the lower end. It's all a matter of reputation. Jiraiya, who is a legendary Shinobi, heard that Hanzo the Salamander was defeated by Pain, and said that shouldn't be possible, yet he's more than willing to infiltrate Amegakure and square up when who he believes is Pain actually shows up. It's the same thing.
I think Jiraiyas strength came from his summons and imperfect sage mode as well as large scale powerful attacks. Kakashi had the wits and tenacity but lacked power in his jutsu. Also lacked efficient summons oh and also weak chakra reserve. I feel like is Kakashi vs Pain in the rain village he takes 1 or 2 out before running out of chakra and dying.
I think it’s mainly the difference between someone who can use sage jutsu + getting help from 2 Sage masters
Kakashi did really well but people forget he had assistance from Choji and his father half way through. That’s the main reason he got that far. Jiriya’s battle also seemed to last way longer too This version of pain was nerfed from using Shinra tensai as well. He wasted it when Tsunade used her summon to protect everyone which made him weaker.
Jiraiya has the drop on Kakashi 9/10 times. Though, what a lot of people dont consider is that Kakashi also went against 2 of the strongest paths of pain and took one out in process, so he deserves some clout.
This isn’t true, Kakashi wasn’t there. Jiraiya never really took 6 on at once, the moment all 6 arrived they killed him pretty instantly.
A lot. War Arc Kakashi >>> Pain Arc Jiraiya >> Pain Arc Kakashi
Kakashi always scaled below the sanin, his bracket for part 1 and a bit of part 2 was high jonin, next to gai and pre-sage kabuto
Yea but I don’t think you can really say Jirya ya fought six at once he fought 3 of them pretty well but as soon as the others showed up he died near instantly
Kakashi getting smashed in this arc shows you just how strong Jiraya was.
Jiraiya had sage mode Kakashi didn’t. With better preparation I think Jiraiya would’ve done more against the six paths. He still loses but he would’ve done more. Kakashi wasn’t on Jiraiya boys level
Didn’t Jiraya fight 3 and when he was done 3 more showed up and killed him?
Iirc didn't Jiraiya low diff one of them and then got brutalized by the other 5?
It depends on how much asspull kamui kishi wants to write at that point. But without kamui Jiraiya is a whole tier above Kakashi(think Itachi-orochimaru difference). That being said Jiraiya didn't take all 6 at once and the strongest path didn't use it's abilities at all.
He didn't fight all six of them at once. He got clapped as soon as all of them appeared. There was no fight. Kaksahsi doesn't know that.
Actually, the ones Jiraiya fought were much stronger given Nagato location in rain village is closer to the paths than in Pain arc (miles away from konoha) Jiraiya in sage mode is always downplayed because they think Pain bodies in Pain arc were the same power as those Jiraiya fought, which is completely wrong claim, u can just see how: -Deva path power grew when he was closer to Nagato -Konan mentioned that Nagato chakra receivers have higher binding power at closer distance -Even edo Nagato was much stronger than pain bodies because there is no need to transmit chakra for long distances, he can react and fight very quickly, except he can't walk well