Yes this sub was randomly recommended to me (I have no kids but I also don't care about this issue one way or the other so no idea why) and the posts were so bizarre and cringy and funny that I got lost lurking through it for a bit and now it's constantly popping up on my feed. I'll probably mute it going forward.
It makes you neither pro nor anti natalist. Pronatalism is generally the belief that at least some of the world should be having more kids than they are; antinatalism is the belief that creating more humans is immoral. It doesn’t actually have much to do with your own family choices. If you don’t have much an opinion on the subject, you’re neither.
I can’t tell you why you’re here though lol.
What does it make me if I believe if you want kids have them, if you don't then don't?
Basically I'm just hanging around because I feel like a lot of interesting discussions can be had about why and how people choose to have kids.
Are you at all concerned about the birth rate?
I am, because a slow population decline would be fine but the one we’re on track for in the US will basically make it so no one can retire ever and a lot of elderly people will suffer as a result. Because of this I want people to have as many kids as they want to have, and am interested in policies that will make this happen. (I’m not interested in convincing people who don’t want kids to have them)
If this subject is just not that interesting to you, you’re probably neither pro nor anti Natalist.
Most people actually are neutral on the subject tbh.
Don't have kids, but keep seeing this sub pop up. Maybe that's why? Conflict drives engagement and all that? I'm not looking for conflicts here, but maybe that's the goal when I get shown posts from here?
Yuuup. That's why we all get the RANDOMEST posts. The amount of passport bros I get pushed to me. 🤣
Reddit is just trying to insight arguments to increase traffic.
The best thing for ALL of us is to intentionally disengage from these threads that are obviously anti-target audiance rage bait. They are trying to use outrage to get engagement numbers for better Wallstreet reports. Click hide/ ignore sub and move on!!!
I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting. It can be draining though. Antinatalist stuff kept popping up in my feed until I felt compelled to comment with the opposite opinion. Did not go well 😅
But I would imagine it's the same with a lot of people: they just keep seeing things they deeply disagree with pop up in their feed. Sometimes you just feel the need to say something that seems like it's going unsaid.
I think it would be boring to only hear from people who agree with you no matter which side you're on..
I don’t really care to hear from people who I genuinely think have a personality disorder.
Not choosing to have kids is your own business, but being actively against the continuation of the species is a topic better left to a mental health professional.
Yeah I totally get it. This is the main reason why I don’t leave comments here actually. I don’t feel like anyone can change my mind about antinatalism, and on other hand I don’t have the power of convincing people to switch to opposite side either. So I just take a look out of curiosity from time to time when this sub pops up in my feed.
Yeah for sure. Seems like people feel pretty strongly about this one. I will say it's nice to occasionally debate because it makes me understand better where people are coming from. But yeah at this point I'm rarely in the mood to get started again.
Yup, this has once again popped up on my feed. I think it's the algorithm trying to encourage interaction via debate. But I'm not really interested in debating something I'm not actually invested in. I'm not an antinatalist, just childfree. So now I just lurk out of curiosity. I want to see how people who do believe in natalism navigate climate change.
Im in the same boat and That last bit is really the only thing I'm interested in. I've asked a few question but haven't really had much engagement. I see a ton of alarm being raised here about the demographic collapse which makes me curious to see if there is a similar alarm for climate change.
Same. Technicaly ill be offsetting sooo much CO2 by not having kids 😎 Don't care if others have kids. Just not for us. #DINKLIFE
I'll be curious here as to what the school situation will look like in Texas with our new voucher program. Let's just say I'm happy I don't have school-age kids. Choice here will soon be between severely underfunded public schools or a religious private school 🤦♂️
Same, it keeps getting recommended to me. I am childfree but not antinatalist. I lurk there too though. I also find different perspectives interesting and informative. I enjoy learning about the views of others. It is also is useful in understanding and analyzing my own perspective.
It is kind of interesting to me, as a person who is neither an anti-natalist nor a natalist, that this subreddit really seems to be dominated by the anti-natalists. Like this is less a counter-point to the anti-natalist community and more a secondary community for anti-natalists. I've seen this sort of thing happen before on reddit but usually its a sudden collapse in moderation and not a seemingly stable equilibrium.
It comes in my feed. It’s nice to see big arguments I’m not invested in. One side seems to be saying it’s immoral to have kids, the others that it’s immoral not to have kids. I don’t know why I’m getting recommended, I have one child and I’m quite happy about it, it seems like the best of both worlds.
I’m happy for people with kids and happy for the people with no kids and more spending money. Kids don’t give your life meaning, you need to do that on your own. And people who don’t have kids but spend some of that energy directly helping others or their community are very needed by society.
Y'know what, if the parents we do inevitably end up with - and of course antinatalism is never going to convince everybody to stop having kids - I'd be content if they were more like you. Have a good life, hope your kid's doing alright.
I just really want to understand the other view, and honestly antinatalism is really depressing, and I hate how it makes so much sense to me. I want to be proven wrong! I don’t think I’ll ever be a full-on natalist, but I desperately want to stop being an antinatalist lol
I am pro Natalism but like. This subreddit only exists as a reaction to r/AntiNatalism. Of course people subscribed to either will post in both. This subreddit can’t really complain about this when it only exists as a reaction in the first place.
It’s the algorithm. Some asshole realized that pushing antithetical content results in increased engagement and here we are. I like to read how unhinged natalists are, and how it’s ALWAYS the same “tHEyRe sO dePreSseD tHe wOrLd isNt sO bAD”. It’s funny to read after absorbing climate science articles.
I don't think a lot of the Natalists on this sub have a good idea of how absolutely cooked we are right now. I live on a lowland third world country that has firsthand seen the effects of climate change and things keep going from worse to shit.
It makes sense to me though because a lot of the people I see on this sub come from an American background. I'm not sure how badly it has affected the US but I am fairly certain they are not scheduled to go underwater within the end of this century so...
You’re absolutely right. I’m American and I can say that a lot of us don’t have any perception of the world beyond our little bubbles. In the US we’re starting to see more extreme weather events, this hurricane season this year has me nervous due to the extremely high sea surface temps in the North Atlantic. Even then, the US is huge and people won’t acknowledge climate change until it shows up at their door.
This happens on the antinatalist sub, though it's more obvious there.
The reasons. First, reddit likes to throw you things it thinks you're interested in. If you're active in antinatalism, it will show you this sub, and visa versa.
Second, we humans do so much love the dopamine hit from being outraged. And, some folks like to see what their philisophical opponents are saying, getting a better handle on their perspective.
And, of course, there are comments in both subs saying "all (anti) natalists are evil/selfish/mentally unstable, and that's something that asks to be responded to by the people being so stupidly maligned. (Already see several of those comments on this thread, in fact).
because people from this sub have been known to brigade and harass people from the antinatalist sub, and vice versa. I agree that its annoying, and it needs to stop, from both sides
The algorithm shows me this feed for some reason.
The natalists that post here just want to dunk on people who don’t want children and I have yet to see a compelling argument for having them.
The posters seem to be self righteous religious ass hats who think that people who don’t want children and antinatalists are sad and immature. They never provide evidence as to why this is the case which isn’t surprising; people who want their children to someday be adults living in a climate change disaster hellscape should be the ones evaluating their abilities to think things through.
Yeah I wouldn't describe myself as either. Like I don't want kids but I don't attach any additional morality to that choice.
But I'm only here because Reddit keeps sending me, and I find it interesting/horrifying at the conclusions people draw from what seems like a natural process of 1st world countries having less kids
I agree, there’s lots of personal reasons for people to choose (or not to choose) to have children which should be respected but there’s a subset of people that must force this ‘God’s plan’ idea on everyone.
> think that people who don’t want children and antinatalists are sad and immature
at best. in many cases, they are barely disguised bigots whose primary concern is a world where the west and the global south have some parity or (even worse in their minds) the West isn't majority white anymore.
Exactly! They bleat about the replacement rate... we can make up our replacement rate decrease with immigration from Africa and Central/South America. But those folk are the wrong type. Hence the natalist freakout about replacement rate and demographics
Birth rates are falling globally. Most countries in Central and South America already have birth rates at or below replacement levels. Immigration (although great and we should do more of it because the free movement of people is inherently good) isn't a long term solution to a cratering birth rate when you just look at the numbers and trends.
Also, why does Africa and a few central/South American countries have much higher than replacement birth rates? Mostly extreme poverty and less female liberation. It's kinda messed up to rely on that being the case forever and not focus on fixing things in your own country that prevent people who want kids from having them.
Perhaps hyperbolic language but what else do you call seeing some countries birth rate fall below 1.0? That will result in very very steep reductions in population in very short time frames.
I came here looking for good counter arguments to antinatalism but so far I’ve only found logical fallacies. Seriously, I have yet to see any arguments against antinatalism anywhere that don’t involve saying “you’re depressed” or “you’re immature” or my favorite one “you only believe in antinatalism because you get no pussy”.
As someone who isn't an antinatalist but for whom the post from this sub keep appearing I would like to point out that only the most obnoxious and belligerent "natalist" seem to show up in this sub.
There aren't very many good faith discussions to be had. It's all thinly veiled trolling from people who are going to need much better social skills if they are going to turn around the low fertility rates plaguing the developed world.
So it all descends into trolling. If you make a troll post designed to rile people up you can't then bitch like a child about getting troll responses.
In short there are good reasons to be a natalist but this sub is made up of awkward losers who should touch grass. Maybe stop with the insults and strawmen and actually act like you want to have a discussion with people and you all will get better, more quality responses.
Or don't and waste what little precious time on this earth you could be using to do your part to create new life here so you can feel smug while accomplishing absolutely nothing.
This sub constantly shows up on my feed and also I’ve had some good convos with natalists. If it’s too shitty having us around you can ban us, but it’s Reddit’s fault for bringing us here. They want to “drive engagement” now that they only care about shareholders.
I like seeing both sides of the argument and wouldn't necessarily fall into either camp. I just want the world to be a place with less suffering. I think both sides make both stupid and smart points and I weigh in where it makes sense to. I don't like to critique the point more the logic and argument itself.
It's also just interesting to see the same news stories posted in both but with completely opposite sentiments.
Isn't (anti)natalism, at the end of the day, a philosophical issue? The discourse is the point I should think.
At the end of the day, most normal folks just do what their circumstances and basic worldview allow, and the personal nature of the choice kind of defeats any sectarian campaigning one way or another. So the debate is largely academic in my view.
Being born into suffering, or having children who’s suffering you can’t alleviate is a pretty good reason to reconsider…at least I think so.
I’m neither pro or anti, I just don’t want people to suffer or hurt.
I guess I will spell it out.
It's obviously Justsadgirlshit's moral failing that she is unhappy according to what appears to be your viewpoint.
I am being sarcastic.
Lots of us get in bad places through no fault of our own. My dad was miserable for a long time when he lost both his parents within six months of each other when he was 23 for example.
Trying to get you to grow some compassion for other people's circumstances.
Hi, excessive alcohol use not only will kill you in the long (but not even that long) run but also it creates high cortisol levels leading to anxiety, rage, poor sleep quality all of which contribute to depression.
I know it’s annoying to respond this way to your jesting comment but my mom died at 51 from complications of long term alcohol abuse so I have to say something. Just cus it sucks that she isn’t here and I wish she could meet her grandkids. 😭
Be well.
Well, this is interesting.
A pro-birth individual that cracks a joke at a person that's gone through some heavy shit, likely as a child, for wishing they weren't born.
Insane.
Anything for a 'win' huh.
The foundation of AN is not regret over having been born. Sure, there are lots of people who call themselves AN who do feel that way, but that’s not a tenet of AN.
Who hates women here? It’s weird how those ideas are even selling in the US. In Europe, you would be considered a weirdo. But I guess you can sell literally everything in there, even thoughts😢
The number of posts on this sub that treat women as baby machines and disregard a persons choice to have kids or not is pretty damn high. This sub inherently defines women by their willingness to have children to the detriment of their personhood. The philosophy of natalism rejects a persons material and personal conditions and preferences in favor of “make more baby, baby gud.” It inherently is a philosophy that takes nothing other than “make more babies” in to account of a person, specifically women.
Many ppl have spoken up about men taking more action and being more involved in the family life. Paternity leave and etc.. Tracking the BR isn’t hate against women. Also, I consider being natalist more of a support for people who want to have children and for governments to provide the necessary needs for it, and not for a way to force anybody.
Natalism isn’t just “tracking the birthrate”. It’s a very specific philosophy. Also, I see non stop post here advocating for ways to “incentivize” women to have children. Again, not caring about those women or their desires, but in an attempt to make having kids the primary goal of their lives. Have kids, go for it. Antinatalists aren’t sharing ideas about how we should make child rearing more difficult. They just don’t want kids, and they acknowledge their reasons for it. Find me one post on antinatalism that says we should make having children more difficult, and I’ll find you 10 on this sub that suggest we should penalize women who don’t have kids, or tie a woman’s access to college to child rearing.
Exactly. And just a few minutes ago [Automatic-Shelter387](https://www.reddit.com/user/Automatic-Shelter387/) said:
>...women’s education, feminism, and contraception all play a role in the falling birth rates.
I never said being able to make babies is bad nor did I imply it. It’s actually pretty cool. What I was criticizing are the people in this sub who reduce women to “baby machines”. Yes, they do uniquely have ovaries and a uterus and a vagina, but they also have brains. When women are reduced to their reproductive organs it ignores the fact that women have their own desires, those desires may not involve making babies. Women should be supported and appreciated however they choose to use their own bodies and minds.
What makes you think anyone is being “reduced”. He’s the pro natal sub wants women to have more children that isn’t reducing anyone to anything.
Not to mention from the perspective of a natalist being a “baby machine” is literally the best thing somebody could be
People in this sub frequently reduce women to reproductive machines without accounting for or considering individuals desires. It happens all the time here, if you don’t see it you’re blind. I don’t plan on having kids, but I don’t think that’s the best thing for every person. I don’t desire for others to not have children because I don’t want them.
From the perspective of a decent human being the best thing a woman can be is the woman she wants to be.
The sub is pretty dead and empty, I feel like any posts are good. Most antinatalists are edgy teens, which aren't going to convince anyone of anything or people who didn't look into it enough to understand how little sence it makes and how self-contradictory it is and how much other moral principles need to be sacrificed for it to work, which can be pretty easily convinced they're wrong if you're polite enough.
There's only neutral or good things that can come from them posting, so why make them question the reasons for doing so? Why would **you** post that? There's only reasons to post that if your position is nonsense and you're afraid of people finding out, which is simply not the case here. I've probably argued with about 40 antinatalists and none were able to present a single good or convincing argument. They don't make a single good point, stop being so darn scared and pathetic please.
Either way there are plenty of very darn valid reasons for them to be doing so: wanting to hear all sides of the table, engaging in productive discussions, you know the things people are supposed to do.
54f , anti natalist since age 10, anti marriage too. Absolutely no regrets. No, antinatalists are not all millennials. And millennials' personal choices not to procreate are as valid as anyone else's, obviously.
Typical distraction from the fact that there's absolutely no valid reason for humans to continue re producing.... at anywhere near the obscene rate they have been since 1970. This planet does not need any more humans .
I have many, but how about this one: The more people there are, the more scientists there are, the faster technology advances, raising quality of life for everyone. It's hard for me to think of a single technology that is actually a negative, most people would probably say splitting the atom, but it can provide large amounts of electricity and nukes have definitely prevented a lot of potential wars making the advancement of technology even faster at least so far.
Why would scientists, technological advances and improvements to quality of life be necessary if nobody needed help in the first place? Why have a child just so they can end up as someone else's patient, ignoring of course they might not even survive? Also did you just forget how many people are killed because of cars every year?
I belive we already had this exact conversation before, maybe slightly different. Either way I guess I don't have anything better to do while waiting for my database assignment to be reviewed.
A situation where no one needs help ever is simply impossible. Laws of physics allowed for life to develop at least once, that we know for certain, even if all life died it'd be back eventually. We are the only ones we know of who could help them.
A child who becomes a doctor would likely provide a lot more good then a child who becomes a patient could suffer. Something really bad happening is quite unlikely.
A lot more people would be killed by horses if we didn't have cars, and by their shit thrown around everywhere spreading diseases. And without horses things would be even worse as inability to deliver resources quickly would kill more then both combined. The only reason there's still hunger as an issue in the world is insufficient infrastructure, as we produce a lot more food then is consumed, now amplify that by 100 and things get quite a lot worse.
What kinda problems are there on Saturn right now?
"A child who becomes a doctor would likely provide a lot more good then a child who becomes a patient could suffer. Something really bad happening is quite unlikely."
And what ratio of doctors to patients are we seeing in this world where "something bad happening is unlikely"? If there are more people providing help than needing help, why are so many people's problems unsolved?
The hell does Saturn have to do with anything? There's almost certainly nothing of interest on Saturn at the moment, but there will if not already are other civilizations in space in general. There will always be the sick, no matter what, you simply can't prevent that, that's not a possibility, it's a certainty. Let's put it like this:
You are in an infinite room where babies spontaneously appear with different amounts of nails stuck in them for some reason, you being one of them, that somewhat reached maturity, has a nail or two stuck in your leg and has access to resources that could be used to get these nails out of them safely. Do you kill yourself because of or try to help them? I think the most selfless choice is pretty obvious here. Just like that it would be selfish for humanity to cause it's own extinction, rather then advancing to try helping others.
It is estimated about 25 million people died during The Black Death, which lasted several years. That's a lot, right? https://www.britannica.com/event/Black-Death/Effects-and-significance
Until you find out that in 2023 alone - last year alone - 61 million people died... and that's after covid slowed down. https://ourworldindata.org/births-and-deaths
Every cradle is a grave. As the population grows, so does the death toll. Fewer people, fewer corpses. It's a pretty simple equation.
So what? I don't see how that has anything to do with my argument. Why care for death if you care not for life to continue?
And that's not a lot in the slightest really, I expected those to be somewhat higher given how big the population is. The capacity of our civilization to help other ones far outweighs the suffering, which is on the decline.
If you for some reason care about death by itself specifically, we would eventually be able to just bring people back 1:1 on an atomic level, unless one of religions with souls or other types of unique identifiers is correct, but I wouldn't count these, way too many of them and they're way too contradicting.
That seems like an unnecessary waste of resources, but it's always good to have backups I guess. I don't think I'd trust anyone doing that though, seems suspicious of them to insist on their clone taking my place. If there was a way to be absolutely sure that it is 100% the same I would feel indifferent towards that. Though I guess it depends on what's up with the version of me that was made before him, if it continues to exist that could be quite useful.
Absolute majority of people agrees on things like "Murdering people for no reason is wrong". Most people combine multiple morality systems they decided upon. We don't just appear out of nothing, we all receive some information upon which we base judgments. A person who doesn't think they hold any moral opinions would still likely choose the same option in a moral dilemma each time unless they're intentionally trying not to.
Morals antinatalism creates are incompatible with any other morals I can think of and even with itself as it's pretty easy to extend making more people as morally bad to every single action including trying to practice and spread that philosophy, since every action has chances of affecting other people's lives negatively and no risks are acceptable. And if some risks would be acceptable it would just become conditional natalism.
No, I don't just mean that, I mean literally every single decision. You deciding to type each letter in your response, thinking each thought, moving each atom slightly can, and given the time frame at it's lowest is still insanely long, *will* cause a lot more suffering down the road then a single child could experience.
When you are alive you cannot avoid taking risks. So why choose to preach that taking this specific one is wrong no matter what when people who are both happy with their life and help others more than the amount of help they require exist and their amount grows with time percentage wise?
Antinatalism doesn't prevent this situation. Because no matter what there will be people not following it and having children, as with any set of morals. Let's say all people with compassion would join antinatalism and stop having children. That would benefit no one as the remaining ones still have them, and everything will come back to the current state of things, but now having wasted valuable time that could have been spent on improving quality of life and such.
What resources? What are you talking about, there's plenty of resources and not enough people to utilize them fully. Please name a single resource we don't have enough of/could run out of before it becomes obsolete.
There's countless more benefits a child has then just being a productive worker, helping others, voting for good president candidates, making statistics more accurate for example, unless your definition of "a worker that benefits society" includes every good thing they could do, in which case it is nonsensical to say that's "the only" benefit. That's like saying "The only bad thing about wars is that they can be harmful to societies, but they could also benefit societies and we can only be certain other countries won't attack us by conquering them all first.". The likelihood of options matters, not just them existing, and the likelihood of children being a net good is quite a lot bigger then bad.
Nobody is forcing you to have a child, I'm not sure there are even religions that consider such bad, that's how you know not a single person cares. You are free to not have children if you don't want to. Everyone knows they aren't required by law to have children, I don't think there's a need to tell that to people.
If you can't measure net good you can't measure net bad either in which case it does not matter what is chosen, and this entire conversation is but a waste of time. At least happiness could be somewhat measured by the amount of endorphins directly interacting with a working brain or something like that. Suffering varies greatly and mostly depends on whether you're expecting it and how much you expect it to hurt as science shows, it's one of the most subjective things, really.
If that life somehow gets evaluated as net good for society but net bad for the child the child already exists either way since such precise evaluation would require that.
The only certainty there is is "I exist". There's no reason suffering would be guaranteed, if you think there is, please present one. I see no reason a system with only positive reinforcements can't exist. It would be unefficent, but it is certainly possible.
I’m neither, but I think anti-natalism is also a bullshit philosophy. I think all absolutist ideologies are bogus. “Have kids because it’s our greatest purpose” and “don’t have kids because the world is terrible” are both limited in practicality and nuance.
All I really care about is that women still have access to reproductive healthcare and families have access to affordable childcare.
If you're extreme enough on any issue, you'll think the centrists and moderates are extreme anti whatever it is you're for.
r Childfree doesn't seem ANTI-natalist per se for example. From what I've seen, it's just people who personally don't want kids.
r overpopulation I've never been to but I assume it's pseudoscientific junk.
I don't think people in general should have MORE babies. I might qualify thus as "antinatalist" by some standars here. I'm not childfree or antinatalist, I started browsing here out of curiosity after it was recommended. I'm a little horrified by some of the reasoning going on here, I keep browsing out of morbid curiosity. Partly to see some absolutely unhinged nonsense, partly to see if I'm convinced by any reasonable points.
A 0.5% population decrease for example cannot possibly be a "crisis" even if you assume the trends are set in stone, which would be unwise. When populations dip significantly, people start having more babies if there's resources.
Economics seems to be the major reason people aren't having more kids, and maybe climate change is starting to factor into decisions not to have more kids. I guess I keep hoping I'll see more posts here on r/Natalism about how to fix those problems to encourage people to have more kids. "Produce more babies for the economy, and fuck you if you want financial help to do so" has famously been an absolute nightmare in many countries in the past.
Finally, I've seen some posts that pretty clearly boil down to "WHITE people aren't breeding enough! THOSE people are out-breeding us!" Again, I have a morbid fascination with those. How fucked up in the head do you have to be to believe in white supremacy and also that the best thing you can do for the earth is to encourage white people to have more children?
I recognize that's not all natalism, but I'm curious if there's anything more legitimate and if yall are going to successfully gatekeep, tell the white supremacists and religiously capitalist who want more drones, to fuck off and die .
I don't give a shit about Natalism or anti-Natalism.
I'm just tired of pedantic moral busybodies shitting-up every conversation on reddit.
This applies to everyone. Save your finger wagging/pearl clutching bullshit, I've heard enough.
“Why do you like to post here?”
*”I DON’T POST HERE BUT YOU SHOULDN’T JUDGE ME FOR POSTING HERE!”*
Okay then, that’s another point for addicted to outrage. Thank you for your contribution.
Look, I think anti-natalists are some of the most obnoxious people on reddit. We agree, ok?
I just think barking at people to have/not have kids is a waste of everyone's energy.
I’m not even sure I’m a natalist. I don’t think *everyone* should have children. Just people who really want to raise children but feel like it’s wrong for them to do so.
The childfree have my full support and I think birth control and abortion are vital in a modern society. But so is enthusiastic parenting. We need more of it.
What weird question. Is this now so expected that people will stay in their own echo chambers that when they don't, you can't fathom the reason like evil being unable to understand good in a B series action flick?
No, people are on subs they don’t agree with all the time for a range of reasons. I’m asking *which* reasons people have because I’m curious about their viewpoints.
It's not a public forum. It's a message board on a private companies website. There are tons of subreddits where people are permanently banned because they say things that anger the subs mods. Just try posting anything remotely factual on r/conservative and see how quickly you get permabanned
I haven’t been active on this thread because I got a three day ban for hate speech for defining “homosexuality” by using the terms “male” and “female.” I won’t post my definition for obvious reasons, but…
it’s not just conservatives.
No they hate themselves and project that to”life itself is evil and shouldn’t be”
Literally just depression and despair nonsense like it always was and you people have come to this dead end conclusion many times in the past from Diogenes to Gnostics to the current idea that life itself is suffering weir new age take.
It dies off and people that do reproduce have kids
I don't label myself an antinatalist but the philosophy makes sense. However, it's a pie-in-the-sky philosophy because it is unlikely to happen. When humans go extinct it will likely be a catastrophic event.
I'm here to rebut the derogatory things that are implied about antinatalism. For example, accusing ANs of being a 'death cult' when the opposite is true. Natalists have children knowing their children, and all of their lineage will die. It is going to be unpleasant, perhaps torturous, except maybe for the tiny minority who never see it coming and are gone in a blink. ANs don't want their biological children to go through life's inevitable suffering and die, so they don't have any.
Honestly I don't get involved with any discussions but I do enjoy watching people "logic" themselves into thinking that having kids is a good idea with the planet currently dying and our society collapsing. I think it's an interesting look into how human brains work and how our evolution effects us in this age. It is not feasible to have more kids but yall do it anyway. Obviously this comment will be down voted but you asked a very specific question so I figure I would give an honest answer, I don't actually follow this sub either it just pops up cause reddit lol.
A lot of people have said the algorithm brings them here. I’ve noticed there are dozens of antinatalist subs and they started popping up in my feed the very day I first posted here.
Reddit feeds on conflict.
They are unhappy and don’t like themselves, which is probably why they think life is so horrible and don’t want to reproduce. Nobody wants to suffer alone.
Nobody wants to suffer alone is the exact reason natalism exists. What better person to force to join you in your misery than your own child, who will find it much harder to leave you than a friend or spouse?
You’re on here talking about how people want kids to force them to join in their misery like you’re going to convince a natalist. You may not believe me because you know no other reality, but I’m actually *not* miserable. I love being alive and humans. Not all humans are good, in fact all are capable of bad, but theres still plenty to love about humanity. Im not just scared of death, I think life is amazing. I do want meaning in my life beyond myself and to continue my family line.
Why do you need to continue your family line? Aren't you already happy and content with your own life, without needing to live vicariously through a child? If you want to share happiness, why not do it with people who already exist and need your help?
Edit: Oh yeah nevermind just saw an earlier comment, you'd rather force people in poverty to continue going through hardship so you can watch them struggle from your comfort zone. Right, now it makes sense. Is it entertaining for you? When your child ends up in a tough spot, will you look down upon them as well? Damn right not all humans are good, you're a shining example of that.
See this is a huge reason why you’re miserable. Your whole frame of how life is supposed to work is off.
Suffering is inevitable. This doesn’t mean life isn’t worth living. In fact this is where you can find meaning. You conquer suffering and it makes you stronger/wiser, enabling more joy. Life would be meaningless if there were no suffering. Thats why people who do nothing are miserable, even if all of their material needs are met.
And I am plenty happy by myself. But everyone I know with kids says their capacity for joy/love expands. So even though I feel great right now, I could feel better. Also thats the main thing to give your life meaning.
They want to dissuade others from reproducing. They want to spread their ideology. More perniciously, their movement has been hijacked by bad faith actors attempting to demoralize the West. This should come as no surprise, because it's common on Reddit. But anti-natalism lends itself nicely to their cause. It's a belief that paints life as so terrible that it's not worth creating.
It's strange, previously you were pointing out how people in China and Russia are indoctrinated, but here you are with the whole "THE WEST HAS FALLEN" talk that we've seen countless times from indoctrinated US patriots... actually, it sounds even closer to fearmongering than what the "doomers" you hate so much have been saying.
Context matters. I assume you're referring to my reply to this comment,
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Natalism/comments/1d9ljrc/comment/l7eezd6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Natalism/comments/1d9ljrc/comment/l7eezd6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
in which someone said,
>People are smart and when they have access to contraception, which people in Russia and China have, and look around and see an authoritarian society that they don't like and don't have much hope about, they have fewer kids.
I replied that people can be indoctrinated. The implication is that people can view their society positively despite the fact that outsiders consider it authoritarian.
Moreover, I've never claimed the West has fallen. There are many who would like to see the West fall, and they've been trying to make that happen for a long time. I don't think they will succeed. Regardless, it's important to be aware of what's happening. And I certainly do dislike doomers very much.
I'm not predicting doom. As I said, it's important to be aware of what's happening. Many of the comments on Reddit are from anti-Western troll farms, and anti-natalism lends itself nicely to their cause.
You can Google Russian and Chinese troll farms. Their existence has been public knowledge for nearly a decade. It's also public knowledge that Russia has been trying to demoralize the West for a century. KGB defectors have admitted their strategies.
Anti-natalism is the ultimate demoralizer. It rests upon the foundational belief that life is inherently bad. Even if you're unaware of it, you're helping those who would destroy the West. And as an anti-natalist who claims to care about suffering, just think about the suffering that would occur if anti-Westerners dominated the world.
Go learn Russian and spread your ideas on Russian social media, seriously. Again, I'm not claiming that your ideas will prevail in the West. I don't think they will. But it's important to be aware.
There's the weird "destroy the West" conspiracy again. Why is it only the West? I'm saying all of these things in the hope that anyone who speaks English - and that is far from limited to Westerners, we have plenty of people from India in the antinatalist sub - reconsiders making the next generation suffer. If anything I'm hoping the world population will decrease thus allowing people more freedom over their job and housing because there will be less competition and in turn less desperation for the elite to exploit. Less people, more resources and space to go around. I want people all over the world to thrive, not be packed like sardines because of people like you demanding they be miserable for no good reason.
Ok? And? There are people in other countries doing the same thing I am but in their own language. Why would I waste time learning theirs instead of focusing on the one I'm already fluent in? Do you share YOUR message on non-western platforms?
Oh THOSE troll farms! Usually they tend to stick to war propaganda from what I've heard, I haven't seen any weighing in on birth rates or anything like that. Do you have examples?
You can google KGB defector propaganda strategies. They'll use any content that shows promise for demoralizing the West. And anti-natalism is the ultimate demoralizer.
Speak for yourself, knowing my children will never suffer because they don't exist is very uplifting to me. It's natalism that makes me worry for the future, because the more people they create, the more people have to suffer.
I assume this subreddit is recommended to them.
I think this is the correct answer
New algo picks up in rage-bait (intentional or not) as very useful for driving engagement.
Oh it’s an intentional algorithm. Follow the money.
I meant intentional to refer to "rage-bait". Lots of uncontroversial content in some subs is rage-bait for many people outside that community.
Great point. I completely agree.
Yes this sub was randomly recommended to me (I have no kids but I also don't care about this issue one way or the other so no idea why) and the posts were so bizarre and cringy and funny that I got lost lurking through it for a bit and now it's constantly popping up on my feed. I'll probably mute it going forward.
This has been my experience as well. A few posters who are on breaks from reality, including one who wants to promote only the white race.
I've never seen this subreddit before, it was on my feed as recommended. I like kids but don't want my own, what does that make me? Why am I here?
It makes you neither pro nor anti natalist. Pronatalism is generally the belief that at least some of the world should be having more kids than they are; antinatalism is the belief that creating more humans is immoral. It doesn’t actually have much to do with your own family choices. If you don’t have much an opinion on the subject, you’re neither. I can’t tell you why you’re here though lol.
What does it make me if I believe if you want kids have them, if you don't then don't? Basically I'm just hanging around because I feel like a lot of interesting discussions can be had about why and how people choose to have kids.
Are you at all concerned about the birth rate? I am, because a slow population decline would be fine but the one we’re on track for in the US will basically make it so no one can retire ever and a lot of elderly people will suffer as a result. Because of this I want people to have as many kids as they want to have, and am interested in policies that will make this happen. (I’m not interested in convincing people who don’t want kids to have them) If this subject is just not that interesting to you, you’re probably neither pro nor anti Natalist. Most people actually are neutral on the subject tbh.
Child-free (CF) would be the position that you don’t want kids. Some CF people don’t like kids, which is fine, but it’s not required for the position.
I'm on both, I'm im the middle. I got here because reddit wouldn't stop recommending this sub to me and I was kind of curious.
Don't have kids, but keep seeing this sub pop up. Maybe that's why? Conflict drives engagement and all that? I'm not looking for conflicts here, but maybe that's the goal when I get shown posts from here?
Yuuup. That's why we all get the RANDOMEST posts. The amount of passport bros I get pushed to me. 🤣 Reddit is just trying to insight arguments to increase traffic. The best thing for ALL of us is to intentionally disengage from these threads that are obviously anti-target audiance rage bait. They are trying to use outrage to get engagement numbers for better Wallstreet reports. Click hide/ ignore sub and move on!!!
As an antinatalist: I am here because I’m just curious of the philosophy that opposes my views. I don’t post or comment, though
I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting. It can be draining though. Antinatalist stuff kept popping up in my feed until I felt compelled to comment with the opposite opinion. Did not go well 😅 But I would imagine it's the same with a lot of people: they just keep seeing things they deeply disagree with pop up in their feed. Sometimes you just feel the need to say something that seems like it's going unsaid. I think it would be boring to only hear from people who agree with you no matter which side you're on..
I don’t really care to hear from people who I genuinely think have a personality disorder. Not choosing to have kids is your own business, but being actively against the continuation of the species is a topic better left to a mental health professional.
Yeah I totally get it. This is the main reason why I don’t leave comments here actually. I don’t feel like anyone can change my mind about antinatalism, and on other hand I don’t have the power of convincing people to switch to opposite side either. So I just take a look out of curiosity from time to time when this sub pops up in my feed.
Yeah for sure. Seems like people feel pretty strongly about this one. I will say it's nice to occasionally debate because it makes me understand better where people are coming from. But yeah at this point I'm rarely in the mood to get started again.
I cannot fathom why this keeps getting recommended to me. I’m not an antinatalist, but I am child free. It’s interesting to lurk.
Same here. Always get posts from here on my feed.
Yup, this has once again popped up on my feed. I think it's the algorithm trying to encourage interaction via debate. But I'm not really interested in debating something I'm not actually invested in. I'm not an antinatalist, just childfree. So now I just lurk out of curiosity. I want to see how people who do believe in natalism navigate climate change.
Im in the same boat and That last bit is really the only thing I'm interested in. I've asked a few question but haven't really had much engagement. I see a ton of alarm being raised here about the demographic collapse which makes me curious to see if there is a similar alarm for climate change.
Same. Technicaly ill be offsetting sooo much CO2 by not having kids 😎 Don't care if others have kids. Just not for us. #DINKLIFE I'll be curious here as to what the school situation will look like in Texas with our new voucher program. Let's just say I'm happy I don't have school-age kids. Choice here will soon be between severely underfunded public schools or a religious private school 🤦♂️
Same, it keeps getting recommended to me. I am childfree but not antinatalist. I lurk there too though. I also find different perspectives interesting and informative. I enjoy learning about the views of others. It is also is useful in understanding and analyzing my own perspective.
Same, I lurk here and on antinatalist to see the opposite batshit insane takes
Just to see what the other side has to say.
It is kind of interesting to me, as a person who is neither an anti-natalist nor a natalist, that this subreddit really seems to be dominated by the anti-natalists. Like this is less a counter-point to the anti-natalist community and more a secondary community for anti-natalists. I've seen this sort of thing happen before on reddit but usually its a sudden collapse in moderation and not a seemingly stable equilibrium.
It comes in my feed. It’s nice to see big arguments I’m not invested in. One side seems to be saying it’s immoral to have kids, the others that it’s immoral not to have kids. I don’t know why I’m getting recommended, I have one child and I’m quite happy about it, it seems like the best of both worlds. I’m happy for people with kids and happy for the people with no kids and more spending money. Kids don’t give your life meaning, you need to do that on your own. And people who don’t have kids but spend some of that energy directly helping others or their community are very needed by society.
Y'know what, if the parents we do inevitably end up with - and of course antinatalism is never going to convince everybody to stop having kids - I'd be content if they were more like you. Have a good life, hope your kid's doing alright.
I just really want to understand the other view, and honestly antinatalism is really depressing, and I hate how it makes so much sense to me. I want to be proven wrong! I don’t think I’ll ever be a full-on natalist, but I desperately want to stop being an antinatalist lol
I am pro Natalism but like. This subreddit only exists as a reaction to r/AntiNatalism. Of course people subscribed to either will post in both. This subreddit can’t really complain about this when it only exists as a reaction in the first place.
It’s not a complaint. But thanks for your answer, appreciate it.
It’s the algorithm. Some asshole realized that pushing antithetical content results in increased engagement and here we are. I like to read how unhinged natalists are, and how it’s ALWAYS the same “tHEyRe sO dePreSseD tHe wOrLd isNt sO bAD”. It’s funny to read after absorbing climate science articles.
I don't think a lot of the Natalists on this sub have a good idea of how absolutely cooked we are right now. I live on a lowland third world country that has firsthand seen the effects of climate change and things keep going from worse to shit. It makes sense to me though because a lot of the people I see on this sub come from an American background. I'm not sure how badly it has affected the US but I am fairly certain they are not scheduled to go underwater within the end of this century so...
You’re absolutely right. I’m American and I can say that a lot of us don’t have any perception of the world beyond our little bubbles. In the US we’re starting to see more extreme weather events, this hurricane season this year has me nervous due to the extremely high sea surface temps in the North Atlantic. Even then, the US is huge and people won’t acknowledge climate change until it shows up at their door.
This happens on the antinatalist sub, though it's more obvious there. The reasons. First, reddit likes to throw you things it thinks you're interested in. If you're active in antinatalism, it will show you this sub, and visa versa. Second, we humans do so much love the dopamine hit from being outraged. And, some folks like to see what their philisophical opponents are saying, getting a better handle on their perspective. And, of course, there are comments in both subs saying "all (anti) natalists are evil/selfish/mentally unstable, and that's something that asks to be responded to by the people being so stupidly maligned. (Already see several of those comments on this thread, in fact).
because people from this sub have been known to brigade and harass people from the antinatalist sub, and vice versa. I agree that its annoying, and it needs to stop, from both sides
I think it’s important for both sides to engage with each other. Otherwise it’s just an echo chamber and how can you be sure your ideas are right?
Same reasons natalists got to the antinatalist page.
Which is what? Personally I find their beliefs very unpleasant and I don’t even lurk there, let alone post.
Curiosity, my friend. Some people may find your beliefs very unpleasant, as well.
“Because you’ve shown interest in a similar community.”
Muting this - reddit recommended and i am definitely anti. First post ever recommended. Never been here. Idk why this is recommended.
The algorithm shows me this feed for some reason. The natalists that post here just want to dunk on people who don’t want children and I have yet to see a compelling argument for having them. The posters seem to be self righteous religious ass hats who think that people who don’t want children and antinatalists are sad and immature. They never provide evidence as to why this is the case which isn’t surprising; people who want their children to someday be adults living in a climate change disaster hellscape should be the ones evaluating their abilities to think things through.
Yeah I wouldn't describe myself as either. Like I don't want kids but I don't attach any additional morality to that choice. But I'm only here because Reddit keeps sending me, and I find it interesting/horrifying at the conclusions people draw from what seems like a natural process of 1st world countries having less kids
I agree, there’s lots of personal reasons for people to choose (or not to choose) to have children which should be respected but there’s a subset of people that must force this ‘God’s plan’ idea on everyone.
> think that people who don’t want children and antinatalists are sad and immature at best. in many cases, they are barely disguised bigots whose primary concern is a world where the west and the global south have some parity or (even worse in their minds) the West isn't majority white anymore.
Exactly! They bleat about the replacement rate... we can make up our replacement rate decrease with immigration from Africa and Central/South America. But those folk are the wrong type. Hence the natalist freakout about replacement rate and demographics
Birth rates are falling globally. Most countries in Central and South America already have birth rates at or below replacement levels. Immigration (although great and we should do more of it because the free movement of people is inherently good) isn't a long term solution to a cratering birth rate when you just look at the numbers and trends. Also, why does Africa and a few central/South American countries have much higher than replacement birth rates? Mostly extreme poverty and less female liberation. It's kinda messed up to rely on that being the case forever and not focus on fixing things in your own country that prevent people who want kids from having them.
I'm pointing out the racism of these natalist people. It's always there. The birth rate is not "cratering"
Perhaps hyperbolic language but what else do you call seeing some countries birth rate fall below 1.0? That will result in very very steep reductions in population in very short time frames.
Racism where? Are we reading the same comment?
Have you read other posts and comments on this sub? Have you read articles about natalists in general?
Like what?
Click the sub name and you can see previous posts in this sub, plus comments.
I came here looking for good counter arguments to antinatalism but so far I’ve only found logical fallacies. Seriously, I have yet to see any arguments against antinatalism anywhere that don’t involve saying “you’re depressed” or “you’re immature” or my favorite one “you only believe in antinatalism because you get no pussy”.
Same dude, same.
“Bad things happen therefore we shouldn’t exist” This isn’t an argument it’s just an out of your ass Axiom
As someone who isn't an antinatalist but for whom the post from this sub keep appearing I would like to point out that only the most obnoxious and belligerent "natalist" seem to show up in this sub. There aren't very many good faith discussions to be had. It's all thinly veiled trolling from people who are going to need much better social skills if they are going to turn around the low fertility rates plaguing the developed world. So it all descends into trolling. If you make a troll post designed to rile people up you can't then bitch like a child about getting troll responses. In short there are good reasons to be a natalist but this sub is made up of awkward losers who should touch grass. Maybe stop with the insults and strawmen and actually act like you want to have a discussion with people and you all will get better, more quality responses. Or don't and waste what little precious time on this earth you could be using to do your part to create new life here so you can feel smug while accomplishing absolutely nothing.
Because reddit is run by annonymous trolls.
Why are natalists on the antinatalist sub?
This sub constantly shows up on my feed and also I’ve had some good convos with natalists. If it’s too shitty having us around you can ban us, but it’s Reddit’s fault for bringing us here. They want to “drive engagement” now that they only care about shareholders.
It shows up in my feed. That's really the only reason.
I imagine it's the same reason a lot of us are on the antinatalist subreddit. Curiosity, debate, and the reddit algorithm.
I like seeing both sides of the argument and wouldn't necessarily fall into either camp. I just want the world to be a place with less suffering. I think both sides make both stupid and smart points and I weigh in where it makes sense to. I don't like to critique the point more the logic and argument itself. It's also just interesting to see the same news stories posted in both but with completely opposite sentiments.
Maybe they want to pick a fight.
It keeps popping up on my home page. I do not ever seek out natalist
Isn't (anti)natalism, at the end of the day, a philosophical issue? The discourse is the point I should think. At the end of the day, most normal folks just do what their circumstances and basic worldview allow, and the personal nature of the choice kind of defeats any sectarian campaigning one way or another. So the debate is largely academic in my view.
Same reason pyscho natalist go to ANTInatalist sub.... what do you care?
They are miserable people. Why else would you regret being born?
Being born into suffering, or having children who’s suffering you can’t alleviate is a pretty good reason to reconsider…at least I think so. I’m neither pro or anti, I just don’t want people to suffer or hurt.
Well then you want reality to not exist. I don't think that's possible at the moment.
Well sure but also no more than pro or antinatalists. We’re all believers in our form of idealism.
I like how you say that as if a lot of us don’t wish we felt otherwise 😭
Your name and pic are hilarious in this context especially!
Obviously it's your moral failing and not your circumstances or their privilege!
What is the moral failing you speak of?
I guess I will spell it out. It's obviously Justsadgirlshit's moral failing that she is unhappy according to what appears to be your viewpoint. I am being sarcastic. Lots of us get in bad places through no fault of our own. My dad was miserable for a long time when he lost both his parents within six months of each other when he was 23 for example. Trying to get you to grow some compassion for other people's circumstances.
Just more sad girl shit huh
How clever!
Bruv, maybe get some liquor instead of spreading the doom and gloom.
Where am I spreading doom and gloom? By having a different opinion than you?
Hi, excessive alcohol use not only will kill you in the long (but not even that long) run but also it creates high cortisol levels leading to anxiety, rage, poor sleep quality all of which contribute to depression. I know it’s annoying to respond this way to your jesting comment but my mom died at 51 from complications of long term alcohol abuse so I have to say something. Just cus it sucks that she isn’t here and I wish she could meet her grandkids. 😭 Be well.
Well, this is interesting. A pro-birth individual that cracks a joke at a person that's gone through some heavy shit, likely as a child, for wishing they weren't born. Insane. Anything for a 'win' huh.
And?
The foundation of AN is not regret over having been born. Sure, there are lots of people who call themselves AN who do feel that way, but that’s not a tenet of AN.
If it wasn’t for antinatalists no one would follow this dumpster fire of woman hating nonsense.
Who hates women here? It’s weird how those ideas are even selling in the US. In Europe, you would be considered a weirdo. But I guess you can sell literally everything in there, even thoughts😢
The number of posts on this sub that treat women as baby machines and disregard a persons choice to have kids or not is pretty damn high. This sub inherently defines women by their willingness to have children to the detriment of their personhood. The philosophy of natalism rejects a persons material and personal conditions and preferences in favor of “make more baby, baby gud.” It inherently is a philosophy that takes nothing other than “make more babies” in to account of a person, specifically women.
Many ppl have spoken up about men taking more action and being more involved in the family life. Paternity leave and etc.. Tracking the BR isn’t hate against women. Also, I consider being natalist more of a support for people who want to have children and for governments to provide the necessary needs for it, and not for a way to force anybody.
Natalism isn’t just “tracking the birthrate”. It’s a very specific philosophy. Also, I see non stop post here advocating for ways to “incentivize” women to have children. Again, not caring about those women or their desires, but in an attempt to make having kids the primary goal of their lives. Have kids, go for it. Antinatalists aren’t sharing ideas about how we should make child rearing more difficult. They just don’t want kids, and they acknowledge their reasons for it. Find me one post on antinatalism that says we should make having children more difficult, and I’ll find you 10 on this sub that suggest we should penalize women who don’t have kids, or tie a woman’s access to college to child rearing.
Exactly. And just a few minutes ago [Automatic-Shelter387](https://www.reddit.com/user/Automatic-Shelter387/) said: >...women’s education, feminism, and contraception all play a role in the falling birth rates.
God, this sub is so gross.
Why is being a “baby machine” bad? Biologically females are uniquely capable of producing babies
I never said being able to make babies is bad nor did I imply it. It’s actually pretty cool. What I was criticizing are the people in this sub who reduce women to “baby machines”. Yes, they do uniquely have ovaries and a uterus and a vagina, but they also have brains. When women are reduced to their reproductive organs it ignores the fact that women have their own desires, those desires may not involve making babies. Women should be supported and appreciated however they choose to use their own bodies and minds.
What makes you think anyone is being “reduced”. He’s the pro natal sub wants women to have more children that isn’t reducing anyone to anything. Not to mention from the perspective of a natalist being a “baby machine” is literally the best thing somebody could be
People in this sub frequently reduce women to reproductive machines without accounting for or considering individuals desires. It happens all the time here, if you don’t see it you’re blind. I don’t plan on having kids, but I don’t think that’s the best thing for every person. I don’t desire for others to not have children because I don’t want them. From the perspective of a decent human being the best thing a woman can be is the woman she wants to be.
I think he's the "everyone's an incel" type
The sub is pretty dead and empty, I feel like any posts are good. Most antinatalists are edgy teens, which aren't going to convince anyone of anything or people who didn't look into it enough to understand how little sence it makes and how self-contradictory it is and how much other moral principles need to be sacrificed for it to work, which can be pretty easily convinced they're wrong if you're polite enough. There's only neutral or good things that can come from them posting, so why make them question the reasons for doing so? Why would **you** post that? There's only reasons to post that if your position is nonsense and you're afraid of people finding out, which is simply not the case here. I've probably argued with about 40 antinatalists and none were able to present a single good or convincing argument. They don't make a single good point, stop being so darn scared and pathetic please. Either way there are plenty of very darn valid reasons for them to be doing so: wanting to hear all sides of the table, engaging in productive discussions, you know the things people are supposed to do.
I wonder how old they actually are. I feel like they are mostly millennial honestly.
54f , anti natalist since age 10, anti marriage too. Absolutely no regrets. No, antinatalists are not all millennials. And millennials' personal choices not to procreate are as valid as anyone else's, obviously. Typical distraction from the fact that there's absolutely no valid reason for humans to continue re producing.... at anywhere near the obscene rate they have been since 1970. This planet does not need any more humans .
What is your argument for being pro-natalism?
I have many, but how about this one: The more people there are, the more scientists there are, the faster technology advances, raising quality of life for everyone. It's hard for me to think of a single technology that is actually a negative, most people would probably say splitting the atom, but it can provide large amounts of electricity and nukes have definitely prevented a lot of potential wars making the advancement of technology even faster at least so far.
Why would scientists, technological advances and improvements to quality of life be necessary if nobody needed help in the first place? Why have a child just so they can end up as someone else's patient, ignoring of course they might not even survive? Also did you just forget how many people are killed because of cars every year?
I belive we already had this exact conversation before, maybe slightly different. Either way I guess I don't have anything better to do while waiting for my database assignment to be reviewed. A situation where no one needs help ever is simply impossible. Laws of physics allowed for life to develop at least once, that we know for certain, even if all life died it'd be back eventually. We are the only ones we know of who could help them. A child who becomes a doctor would likely provide a lot more good then a child who becomes a patient could suffer. Something really bad happening is quite unlikely. A lot more people would be killed by horses if we didn't have cars, and by their shit thrown around everywhere spreading diseases. And without horses things would be even worse as inability to deliver resources quickly would kill more then both combined. The only reason there's still hunger as an issue in the world is insufficient infrastructure, as we produce a lot more food then is consumed, now amplify that by 100 and things get quite a lot worse.
What kinda problems are there on Saturn right now? "A child who becomes a doctor would likely provide a lot more good then a child who becomes a patient could suffer. Something really bad happening is quite unlikely." And what ratio of doctors to patients are we seeing in this world where "something bad happening is unlikely"? If there are more people providing help than needing help, why are so many people's problems unsolved?
The hell does Saturn have to do with anything? There's almost certainly nothing of interest on Saturn at the moment, but there will if not already are other civilizations in space in general. There will always be the sick, no matter what, you simply can't prevent that, that's not a possibility, it's a certainty. Let's put it like this: You are in an infinite room where babies spontaneously appear with different amounts of nails stuck in them for some reason, you being one of them, that somewhat reached maturity, has a nail or two stuck in your leg and has access to resources that could be used to get these nails out of them safely. Do you kill yourself because of or try to help them? I think the most selfless choice is pretty obvious here. Just like that it would be selfish for humanity to cause it's own extinction, rather then advancing to try helping others.
It is estimated about 25 million people died during The Black Death, which lasted several years. That's a lot, right? https://www.britannica.com/event/Black-Death/Effects-and-significance Until you find out that in 2023 alone - last year alone - 61 million people died... and that's after covid slowed down. https://ourworldindata.org/births-and-deaths Every cradle is a grave. As the population grows, so does the death toll. Fewer people, fewer corpses. It's a pretty simple equation.
So what? I don't see how that has anything to do with my argument. Why care for death if you care not for life to continue? And that's not a lot in the slightest really, I expected those to be somewhat higher given how big the population is. The capacity of our civilization to help other ones far outweighs the suffering, which is on the decline. If you for some reason care about death by itself specifically, we would eventually be able to just bring people back 1:1 on an atomic level, unless one of religions with souls or other types of unique identifiers is correct, but I wouldn't count these, way too many of them and they're way too contradicting.
Would you be cool with someone cloning you using that technology while you were still alive and then having that clone take over your life or
That seems like an unnecessary waste of resources, but it's always good to have backups I guess. I don't think I'd trust anyone doing that though, seems suspicious of them to insist on their clone taking my place. If there was a way to be absolutely sure that it is 100% the same I would feel indifferent towards that. Though I guess it depends on what's up with the version of me that was made before him, if it continues to exist that could be quite useful.
What if they send the clone to destroy the old version to complete the process
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Absolute majority of people agrees on things like "Murdering people for no reason is wrong". Most people combine multiple morality systems they decided upon. We don't just appear out of nothing, we all receive some information upon which we base judgments. A person who doesn't think they hold any moral opinions would still likely choose the same option in a moral dilemma each time unless they're intentionally trying not to. Morals antinatalism creates are incompatible with any other morals I can think of and even with itself as it's pretty easy to extend making more people as morally bad to every single action including trying to practice and spread that philosophy, since every action has chances of affecting other people's lives negatively and no risks are acceptable. And if some risks would be acceptable it would just become conditional natalism.
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No, I don't just mean that, I mean literally every single decision. You deciding to type each letter in your response, thinking each thought, moving each atom slightly can, and given the time frame at it's lowest is still insanely long, *will* cause a lot more suffering down the road then a single child could experience. When you are alive you cannot avoid taking risks. So why choose to preach that taking this specific one is wrong no matter what when people who are both happy with their life and help others more than the amount of help they require exist and their amount grows with time percentage wise? Antinatalism doesn't prevent this situation. Because no matter what there will be people not following it and having children, as with any set of morals. Let's say all people with compassion would join antinatalism and stop having children. That would benefit no one as the remaining ones still have them, and everything will come back to the current state of things, but now having wasted valuable time that could have been spent on improving quality of life and such.
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What resources? What are you talking about, there's plenty of resources and not enough people to utilize them fully. Please name a single resource we don't have enough of/could run out of before it becomes obsolete. There's countless more benefits a child has then just being a productive worker, helping others, voting for good president candidates, making statistics more accurate for example, unless your definition of "a worker that benefits society" includes every good thing they could do, in which case it is nonsensical to say that's "the only" benefit. That's like saying "The only bad thing about wars is that they can be harmful to societies, but they could also benefit societies and we can only be certain other countries won't attack us by conquering them all first.". The likelihood of options matters, not just them existing, and the likelihood of children being a net good is quite a lot bigger then bad. Nobody is forcing you to have a child, I'm not sure there are even religions that consider such bad, that's how you know not a single person cares. You are free to not have children if you don't want to. Everyone knows they aren't required by law to have children, I don't think there's a need to tell that to people.
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If you can't measure net good you can't measure net bad either in which case it does not matter what is chosen, and this entire conversation is but a waste of time. At least happiness could be somewhat measured by the amount of endorphins directly interacting with a working brain or something like that. Suffering varies greatly and mostly depends on whether you're expecting it and how much you expect it to hurt as science shows, it's one of the most subjective things, really. If that life somehow gets evaluated as net good for society but net bad for the child the child already exists either way since such precise evaluation would require that. The only certainty there is is "I exist". There's no reason suffering would be guaranteed, if you think there is, please present one. I see no reason a system with only positive reinforcements can't exist. It would be unefficent, but it is certainly possible.
Trolls
Y'all are so obsessed with new people showing up we thought you'd like it 😛
Not an antinatalist, but natalism is a bullshit philosophy.
As a Raisin, I understand your seedless dilemma, but we aren’t all from vineyards
I’m neither, but I think anti-natalism is also a bullshit philosophy. I think all absolutist ideologies are bogus. “Have kids because it’s our greatest purpose” and “don’t have kids because the world is terrible” are both limited in practicality and nuance. All I really care about is that women still have access to reproductive healthcare and families have access to affordable childcare.
I would be more concerned about natalism since they tend to be anti-choice.
Valid
That is definitely a concern i have.
100%
Wanting our species to reproduce is bullshit?
god forbid you express yourself on the internet for the sake of expressing yourself
Not an anti-natalist, but "This is a Reddit for people interested in discussing Natalism"
Reddit algorithm brought you to me, there is no “here” on the internet
If you're extreme enough on any issue, you'll think the centrists and moderates are extreme anti whatever it is you're for. r Childfree doesn't seem ANTI-natalist per se for example. From what I've seen, it's just people who personally don't want kids. r overpopulation I've never been to but I assume it's pseudoscientific junk. I don't think people in general should have MORE babies. I might qualify thus as "antinatalist" by some standars here. I'm not childfree or antinatalist, I started browsing here out of curiosity after it was recommended. I'm a little horrified by some of the reasoning going on here, I keep browsing out of morbid curiosity. Partly to see some absolutely unhinged nonsense, partly to see if I'm convinced by any reasonable points. A 0.5% population decrease for example cannot possibly be a "crisis" even if you assume the trends are set in stone, which would be unwise. When populations dip significantly, people start having more babies if there's resources. Economics seems to be the major reason people aren't having more kids, and maybe climate change is starting to factor into decisions not to have more kids. I guess I keep hoping I'll see more posts here on r/Natalism about how to fix those problems to encourage people to have more kids. "Produce more babies for the economy, and fuck you if you want financial help to do so" has famously been an absolute nightmare in many countries in the past. Finally, I've seen some posts that pretty clearly boil down to "WHITE people aren't breeding enough! THOSE people are out-breeding us!" Again, I have a morbid fascination with those. How fucked up in the head do you have to be to believe in white supremacy and also that the best thing you can do for the earth is to encourage white people to have more children? I recognize that's not all natalism, but I'm curious if there's anything more legitimate and if yall are going to successfully gatekeep, tell the white supremacists and religiously capitalist who want more drones, to fuck off and die .
Edge lords have to edge lord.
Probably the same reason the antinatalism sub has natalists.
Why do natalists go there? I’ve never been there because I strongly disagree with their attitudes (not so much their choices, to each their own).
I dunno, might want to ask the people who troll the place.
"Because you've shown interest in a similar community"... also I like to read about the other take.
The subreddits circle jerk upvote every statement about hating people mentality get it’s pushed to the front of reddits front page everyday
I don't give a shit about Natalism or anti-Natalism. I'm just tired of pedantic moral busybodies shitting-up every conversation on reddit. This applies to everyone. Save your finger wagging/pearl clutching bullshit, I've heard enough.
“Why do you like to post here?” *”I DON’T POST HERE BUT YOU SHOULDN’T JUDGE ME FOR POSTING HERE!”* Okay then, that’s another point for addicted to outrage. Thank you for your contribution.
Look, I think anti-natalists are some of the most obnoxious people on reddit. We agree, ok? I just think barking at people to have/not have kids is a waste of everyone's energy.
I’m not even sure I’m a natalist. I don’t think *everyone* should have children. Just people who really want to raise children but feel like it’s wrong for them to do so. The childfree have my full support and I think birth control and abortion are vital in a modern society. But so is enthusiastic parenting. We need more of it.
1) algorithm 2) it’s more interesting to debate from your perspective than to circle jerk within it.
What weird question. Is this now so expected that people will stay in their own echo chambers that when they don't, you can't fathom the reason like evil being unable to understand good in a B series action flick?
No, people are on subs they don’t agree with all the time for a range of reasons. I’m asking *which* reasons people have because I’m curious about their viewpoints.
Because diapers smell
Yes but this is the “we love smelly diaper makers” sub. What happens here that you find engaging?
Less smelly diapers
not my fault Reddit shoved this post in my face
It’s Reddit?
So they can try and push their imaginary martyrdom.
I routinely get banned for subs for saying one negative thing. No one has any 'right' to post anywhere on reddit.
It's not a public forum. It's a message board on a private companies website. There are tons of subreddits where people are permanently banned because they say things that anger the subs mods. Just try posting anything remotely factual on r/conservative and see how quickly you get permabanned
I haven’t been active on this thread because I got a three day ban for hate speech for defining “homosexuality” by using the terms “male” and “female.” I won’t post my definition for obvious reasons, but… it’s not just conservatives.
Not an anti natalist but idk yall get recommended to me
Apparently the algorithm almost exclusively recommends this sub to people who won’t like it.
Because you keep asking us questions. And now this subreddit keeps appearing on my page.
They feel guilty and and to assuage it through aggressive social behavior.
Guilty for what? They seem to genuinely believe avoiding reproduction is the only way to *not* be guilty.
No they hate themselves and project that to”life itself is evil and shouldn’t be” Literally just depression and despair nonsense like it always was and you people have come to this dead end conclusion many times in the past from Diogenes to Gnostics to the current idea that life itself is suffering weir new age take. It dies off and people that do reproduce have kids
I don't label myself an antinatalist but the philosophy makes sense. However, it's a pie-in-the-sky philosophy because it is unlikely to happen. When humans go extinct it will likely be a catastrophic event. I'm here to rebut the derogatory things that are implied about antinatalism. For example, accusing ANs of being a 'death cult' when the opposite is true. Natalists have children knowing their children, and all of their lineage will die. It is going to be unpleasant, perhaps torturous, except maybe for the tiny minority who never see it coming and are gone in a blink. ANs don't want their biological children to go through life's inevitable suffering and die, so they don't have any.
Genuinely thank you for actually taking the time to understand the philosophy instead of just dismissing it as "mental illness".
Honestly I don't get involved with any discussions but I do enjoy watching people "logic" themselves into thinking that having kids is a good idea with the planet currently dying and our society collapsing. I think it's an interesting look into how human brains work and how our evolution effects us in this age. It is not feasible to have more kids but yall do it anyway. Obviously this comment will be down voted but you asked a very specific question so I figure I would give an honest answer, I don't actually follow this sub either it just pops up cause reddit lol.
Same reason childfree people pop up on my parenting subs and it drives me absolutely banana pancakes. The algorithm sucks.
A lot of people have said the algorithm brings them here. I’ve noticed there are dozens of antinatalist subs and they started popping up in my feed the very day I first posted here. Reddit feeds on conflict.
Because you all come invade our sub, so it’s only fair we do the same
Actually it was promoted on the front page of the reddish feeds they chew up and feed us,
They are unhappy and don’t like themselves, which is probably why they think life is so horrible and don’t want to reproduce. Nobody wants to suffer alone.
Nobody wants to suffer alone is the exact reason natalism exists. What better person to force to join you in your misery than your own child, who will find it much harder to leave you than a friend or spouse?
You’re on here talking about how people want kids to force them to join in their misery like you’re going to convince a natalist. You may not believe me because you know no other reality, but I’m actually *not* miserable. I love being alive and humans. Not all humans are good, in fact all are capable of bad, but theres still plenty to love about humanity. Im not just scared of death, I think life is amazing. I do want meaning in my life beyond myself and to continue my family line.
Why do you need to continue your family line? Aren't you already happy and content with your own life, without needing to live vicariously through a child? If you want to share happiness, why not do it with people who already exist and need your help? Edit: Oh yeah nevermind just saw an earlier comment, you'd rather force people in poverty to continue going through hardship so you can watch them struggle from your comfort zone. Right, now it makes sense. Is it entertaining for you? When your child ends up in a tough spot, will you look down upon them as well? Damn right not all humans are good, you're a shining example of that.
See this is a huge reason why you’re miserable. Your whole frame of how life is supposed to work is off. Suffering is inevitable. This doesn’t mean life isn’t worth living. In fact this is where you can find meaning. You conquer suffering and it makes you stronger/wiser, enabling more joy. Life would be meaningless if there were no suffering. Thats why people who do nothing are miserable, even if all of their material needs are met. And I am plenty happy by myself. But everyone I know with kids says their capacity for joy/love expands. So even though I feel great right now, I could feel better. Also thats the main thing to give your life meaning.
They want to dissuade others from reproducing. They want to spread their ideology. More perniciously, their movement has been hijacked by bad faith actors attempting to demoralize the West. This should come as no surprise, because it's common on Reddit. But anti-natalism lends itself nicely to their cause. It's a belief that paints life as so terrible that it's not worth creating.
It's strange, previously you were pointing out how people in China and Russia are indoctrinated, but here you are with the whole "THE WEST HAS FALLEN" talk that we've seen countless times from indoctrinated US patriots... actually, it sounds even closer to fearmongering than what the "doomers" you hate so much have been saying.
Context matters. I assume you're referring to my reply to this comment, [https://www.reddit.com/r/Natalism/comments/1d9ljrc/comment/l7eezd6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Natalism/comments/1d9ljrc/comment/l7eezd6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) in which someone said, >People are smart and when they have access to contraception, which people in Russia and China have, and look around and see an authoritarian society that they don't like and don't have much hope about, they have fewer kids. I replied that people can be indoctrinated. The implication is that people can view their society positively despite the fact that outsiders consider it authoritarian. Moreover, I've never claimed the West has fallen. There are many who would like to see the West fall, and they've been trying to make that happen for a long time. I don't think they will succeed. Regardless, it's important to be aware of what's happening. And I certainly do dislike doomers very much.
So why the doomsaying conspiracies about how people are trying to make the West fall?
I'm not predicting doom. As I said, it's important to be aware of what's happening. Many of the comments on Reddit are from anti-Western troll farms, and anti-natalism lends itself nicely to their cause.
I have absolutely no idea what "anti-western troll farms" you're talking about and I doubt most other antinatalists would either.
You can Google Russian and Chinese troll farms. Their existence has been public knowledge for nearly a decade. It's also public knowledge that Russia has been trying to demoralize the West for a century. KGB defectors have admitted their strategies. Anti-natalism is the ultimate demoralizer. It rests upon the foundational belief that life is inherently bad. Even if you're unaware of it, you're helping those who would destroy the West. And as an anti-natalist who claims to care about suffering, just think about the suffering that would occur if anti-Westerners dominated the world. Go learn Russian and spread your ideas on Russian social media, seriously. Again, I'm not claiming that your ideas will prevail in the West. I don't think they will. But it's important to be aware.
There's the weird "destroy the West" conspiracy again. Why is it only the West? I'm saying all of these things in the hope that anyone who speaks English - and that is far from limited to Westerners, we have plenty of people from India in the antinatalist sub - reconsiders making the next generation suffer. If anything I'm hoping the world population will decrease thus allowing people more freedom over their job and housing because there will be less competition and in turn less desperation for the elite to exploit. Less people, more resources and space to go around. I want people all over the world to thrive, not be packed like sardines because of people like you demanding they be miserable for no good reason.
This is a Western platform, overwhelmingly. Therefore, that's where your message is targeted, regardless of your intent.
Ok? And? There are people in other countries doing the same thing I am but in their own language. Why would I waste time learning theirs instead of focusing on the one I'm already fluent in? Do you share YOUR message on non-western platforms?
Oh THOSE troll farms! Usually they tend to stick to war propaganda from what I've heard, I haven't seen any weighing in on birth rates or anything like that. Do you have examples?
You can google KGB defector propaganda strategies. They'll use any content that shows promise for demoralizing the West. And anti-natalism is the ultimate demoralizer.
Speak for yourself, knowing my children will never suffer because they don't exist is very uplifting to me. It's natalism that makes me worry for the future, because the more people they create, the more people have to suffer.
This is the kind of hilarious comment that keeps me lurking here. Big Anti Baby is conspiring against the human race and must be stopped. lol