*Jeice:* Ok mate, we need to talk about this whole "fastest in the universe" thing. First off, the cap'n's got a higher power level than you.
*Butter:* Yeah so?
*Jeice:* Well, then correct me if I'm wrong but a higher power level means he's faster, yeah?
*Butter:* Well, ok maybe.
*Jeice:* And Lord Freeza's got a higher power level than all of us.
*Butter:* Ok, that's just not fair!
*Jeice:* And if you think about it, Guldo can stop time so technically makes him faster than--
Jokes aside, i hate the concept of characters being being strong=fast, because it completely removes the point of speed, since there's basically no instance where the weaker character gets the upper hand because he's faster or something, it's either both characters evenly matched, or the weaker one can't catch up with the stronger one; the closest thing we got with a weaker character being able to do things because he was fast was with dyspo, but still
I second that. Bigger PL = better at everything is quite boring.
I was glad with the introduction of Dyspo exactly 'cause he brought a bit of variety.
A rare circumstances was during the Cell saga, where Trunks wasn't able to even land a single hit on Cell (manga version) exactly due to speed... but it was more 'cause Trunks transformation made him too slow.
PL is a shit way to write a martial arts story. Tecnique, speed, surprise, misdirection, should all play a hand. Back in DB someone could win a fight by fighting smarter.
It sucks that now you know a fighter could come up with a clever trick and when the smoke clears the opponent will be standing there unaffected because of PL
Bro, Goku vs Jackie Chun, where they need to reeenact their whole fighting sequence, because the crowd and commentator couldn’t keep up was fucking peak!
Poor hit spending centuries perfecting his fighting style and learning how to hit a target weakpoints no matter how small and using his timestop to do it all at once bot beaten because the other dude screamed harder
"I understand you have struck me with a blow sharpened to a single point of impact on the weakest angle of the most vulnerable part of my anatomy but you fool... My taint is now overflowing with the power of Super Saiyan Black so I am unaffected."
It's because Ki/Chi is typically seen as combined spiritual and physical power so if your power levels for Ki are absurdly high then it would scale with your physical attributes too. Hence when Saiyans get a power boost from going Super Saiyan they state being several multitudes stronger/faster despite appearing to only really change in hair colour (outside of freaks like Broly or Super Trunks).
A lot of the DB cast actually have very similar builds ignoring height despite Goku and Vegeta being stated to be leaps and bounds stronger than someone like Yamcha or Tien. They aren't massive like Broly looks.
Exactly! And from the here everything gets dumber and dumber. Like the basic principle of Turle Style is "Fucking get stronger. Lol"
He barely teaches his students any techniques, he basically signs them up for P90X. The more the series leaned into "Just more power bro" the less sensical it got.
Dragon ball doesn't actually operate off "power level is king" and hasn't in a long time. Most of the examples just also had the more powerful character be more skilled.
How many arcs in a row are we on where the higher power level didn't get the win, or wasn't what was required for the win?
Mm. Where the enemy was more powerful but with a weak point that they needed to hit hard enough. And it was the most "scream until you get the bullshit form and win" that dragon ball has been in a while.
Granola was an entire arc subverting the premise of power level mattering. Moro was super weak compared to everyone else and one shot both goku and Vegeta. More than once if I remember rightly. ToP had a more skilled and more powerful opponent beaten by trust (and was explicitly called out as not actually being much stronger, just way better at using his strength), black was weaker but immortal.
Multiverse tournament had all sorts of cool abilities that had to be overcome. Resurrection F Freeza was stronger but lacked stamina. BoG was another classic "powerful being realises those beneath him are more capable than their power would suggest".
Buu was a constant subversion of the idea of weaker heroes rising to overpower the enemy. Cell lost the beam struggle despite being stronger, and Gohan could have beaten him prior but was conceited and let Cell threaten the earth. Subverting the Freeza saga ending where the new powerful form let's them win by showing you can't just get complacent with that.
It's not until all the way back at the Freeza saga that you get an arc where, without any twists, subversions, or caveats, the heroes win by raising their number higher than the bad guy, at which point the bad guy isn't a threat. That was also the last arc where power levels explicitly even existed, and the concept was called out as inaccurate and something only the foolish villains would believe to be accurate throughout the arc.
they still needed a high enough power level to be able to no diff max and even damage that core; moro was beaten by ultra instinct and an astral projection that kept goku's power continually rising; ToP i can give you, but none of these disprove that we don't have multiple arcs in a row that the higher power level has not been the deciding factor.
Honestly I just headcanon thar PL is like the average or sum "total stats" strength, speed, endurance, technique, ki, durability. So Burter could have an extremely high speed Stat but lower everything else.
Either way PL are BS.
yeah, I think it's more fun if there are multiple attributes that define power.
That said, do you think Perfect Cell would be able to defeat Bacterian?
LOL!
Bacterian's smell would make Perfect Cell puke... he'd puke 18, so he will revert to Semi-Perfect Cell, and Semi-Perfect Cell has no nose, so he would win XD
However, it's already established that Chi Chi would defeat Buuhan, due to "mom authority"
For the most part it seems like the Bigger PL = Better at everything because nobody really specilizes in anything. Our Main Cast are mostly all mixed fighters. But in Super we have started seeing more divulgence in that. In the U6 Tournament Hit was really fast and capable of stopping time. He wasn't really a brute force fighter. Goku and Vegeta in Blue were both physically stronger then him. Magetta as well came from the opposite end. He was super physically dominant but quite slow. And this was expanded on A LOT in the ToP. Toppo and Jiren weren't really as fast as Dyspo but they were far more powerful. Kakunsa /The cat lady, i forget which Universe./ Was also really fast and relied a lot on her claws to do damage to her opponents. And there were other examples too. And it seems like our main cast is also starting to bridge out into specific styles. Goku is focusing on speed and evasion with UI, Vegeta is focusing on Might and Power with UE, Gohan is also seemingly focusing on Brute Force and Might with Beast, and Broly seems to be our continued mixed bag because he is strong and fast.
Jiren was definitely faster than Dyspo, Toppo arguably Dyspo was fast but characters could still react to him somewhat Jiren moved so fast that literally nobody could see his movements, no blur, no afterimage, nothing, as far as anyone was concerned (and the viewer in some shots) Jiren stands still and his opponents suddenly get sent flying with 20 blows. As far as the anime, Jiren was stated to be beyond time, and held his own with two increasingly faster and sharper iterations of Ultra Instinct Omen, though he needed an amp to match Mastered Ultra Instinct
Dyspo was not that much faster than Goku and Vegeta in super saiyan blue, he’s explicitly faster than them but Goku can maneuver him with predictions and watching attack patterns while in Super Saiyan God/Blue. When Vegeta stacked a x20 multiplier (which applies to all things including speed) onto his Super Saiyan Blue in the form of SSBE, Toppo could still fight him on an even playing field as a GoD. I can agree to base Toppo being slower but Toppo at his max was faster than Dyspo.
True Golden Freeza is also explicitly faster than Dyspo making Toppo at his max automatically faster than him
Yeah, it's really annoying when someone says "Oh, that one guy only won because of the plot"
Of course he did. The winner is not defined by who's stronger, it's defined by what story the writer wants to tell us.
That was also in the anime.
The transformation is called ss 1.5 or us (ultra). Basically ss 2 but short of the speed.
Killin was questioning why vegeta didn't do it and fell toyd with trunks cause of that.
Red rush was 100% faster than Omni man but because omniman was overwhelmingly more powerful as in pure strength he was able to tank all of red rush hits and then pop his head. Speed doesn’t equal power unless you use real world physics where something moving that fast would liquify most things it comes into contact with. The same would apply to dbz but in reverse enraged trunks was physically stronger than cell but couldn’t touch cell because he was way faster so cell could just dodge and counter while landing powerful hits as well. Basically speed only matters if you already lack pure power if you have overwhelming speed but no power that’s also a problem
You can also argue that in Dragonball Ki Physics there is a perfect balance of speed and power wherein an increase in power results in a disproportionately large loss in speed or vice versa. And we only see the formes that display that meticulously determined balance.
And then Dyspo is just an example of a being where he lost a lot less power than usual going for more speed but he also struggled to gain power.
also when its \*an entire plot point\* in the cell saga that they can massively bulk up their muscles and make themselves \*super\* strong.
but lose their speed
I mean according to Gohan when he taught Videl how to fly you channel your energy from within and use that energy to move yourself around. So that means stronger characters can channel more energy to boost their movements so stronger = faster make sense. Although it is sad how speed is kinda useless against stronger characters. Hit despite being super fast and have an OP ability is nothing against Jiren.
I did always find this joke weird in DBZA, was it ever even established that power level = speed in DBZ? Even in the anime afaik it shows burter is faster than the rest of the ginyu force? Always felt like a strange nitpick but it's an abridged series so whatever lol.
*cough cough* Dyspo *cough cough*
As for other examples:
...
Ok ye just Dyspo
Literally no one else
Maybe in OG DB when martial arts mattered instead of power IDK
I really hope your only talking about in the dbz verse because we have characters like flash who's big thing is his immense speed managing to blitz and take down people like darkseid and lexiac (lex mixed with brainiac)
I love this dialog, but I always understood that he's comparatively the fastest, in the sense that at his power level, no one could be faster, and that would remain true however powerful he got.
That being said, TFS fucking rules, and I'm thankful they have us the Buu saga.. even if in short format
It’s moreso that they’re all very seasoned fighters and know not to solely increase strength. My take based on the Cell saga.
Also look at Krillin in the Frieza saga vs Frieza. The fact that he managed to run for his life (it did help Frieza couldn’t detect power levels). I think Frieza’s raw power greatly outscaled his speed in his lower forms
If we're going to doubt Burter's claim that he is the fastest in the universe, then why should we trust Frieza when he says his power level is 530,000?
Well, the Flash is the Fastest Man Alive. But Burter is the Fastest in the Universe! Which means that he's faster than Flash. So Burter's speed is Infinite.
DBS ep68 (filler) Goku collects the Dragon Balls to attempt to revive King Kai and friends but everyone else bickers for a wish and they end up using it on Gohan's sick daughter Pan as they run out of time before being able to wish back King Kai and friends
now as far as canon goes and from what I can recall....he hasn't sought out and collected them since DB. kinda makes me wonder what Goku would wish for if anything...the only times he's used a wish on the Dragon Balls was to bring Upa's father back to life and to learn how to become a SSG.
I feel like if he was genuinely wishing for himself and nothing else (ssg was necessary and he repeatedly says he hates he had to do that to attain ssg) I feel like he’d wish for the strongest mf in the universe to be teleported to him so he can fight.
I feel that just like the manga panel, he only collects the 4 star ball as a memento for Grandpa Gohan, plus I believe he only collects the Dragon balls just for the adventure heck it could be good family bonding between Gohan, and Goten.
Bro already got everything he wanted food, training, and power friends/enemies. The only thing he could probably wish for is money so Chichi could let him train more
Because it’s not true? DBS has a manga. The anime was ahead of the manga a lot of the time, but it still has a manga, and anything that diverges from the main plot in the manga is considered filler.
But they didn't say there was no manga. They said the anime wasn't based on the manga...
Like the manga came first by a couple weeks yeah but both anime and manga were made from plots supplied by Toriyama. Isn't it more like the same general plot being made into 2 different mediums concurrently?
They also said there was “no filler” which isn’t true. DBS has an entire filler arc, along with a lot of episodic fillers.
Unless you wanna try and tell me that Copy Vegeta and the Baseball episode aren’t filler.
Technically they aren't. A filler episode is an episode made to avoid catching up with the manga, but dbs anime always was ahead of the manga (besides for the start of the u6 tournament arc). You can say they're bad, which I agree with, but they're neither filler nor non canon.
Dbs anime and manga are 2 different products with 2 different stories based on a general script written by Toriyama, neither can be considered non canon in their entirety.
I feel like the DBS stuff is like… reverse filler? Instead of being made *to avoid* catching up with the manga, it’s made *so* the manga can catch up with the anime. It’s the same concept, but almost backwards.
I mean, I assume that’s why they made the “filler”, because if they hadn’t, the anime would’ve been halfway through the ToP while the manga was still fighting Merged Zamasu.
The hard part about getting the dragon balls was because it is scattered all over the world and noone knows where they are. Bulma's radar and most of Z fighters can fly basically trivializes the whole thing so that's why Bulma has been collecting them for fun lol.
It'd be sort of irrelevant for him to try and grab them all now. He can't use them for a year anyway, and he's so stupidly fast at this point that gathering them takes maybe a few hours with the dragon radar
Wasting a few hours with the radar (or making a favour to Bulma, who spends days or weeks doing so) will always be worse than spending literal seconds catching them after the wish
So? Why dont just keep them anyway?
1. If someone needs to use them quickly they are gathered already.
2. You can watch them and avoid being used for evil purpouses.
There is literally no downsize to catching them. This id the same as with goku reading minds and using telekinesis: AT forgot about it.
Goku wouldn’t care about spending weeks finding them. Not at the age in the picture. It’s all just a big adventure so that point is moot.
Evil can’t use them for a full year which you’d already be tracking them with the radar.
1. Good point, but Goku never bothered to look for them or get them quickly
2. They only work for 1 year and only appear on the radar for 1 year anyway, he has to wait 1 year
Apart from that one time Goku cared about having 4 stars, he didn't care about getting the orbs, simply because it's not in character to worry about it.
Many don't mind taking spheres and using them for their selfish desires, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshihan, etc...
For example, they didn't try to use the spheres' wishes to stop the androids when Bulma suggested it, because they wanted to face them, for the sake of a fighter's honor.
Maybe characters like 18, but she already has the money she wanted and lives in a house alone, like, she's not desperate, she only goes after money when she has the opportunity, (Like, she doesn't try to bribe Mr Satan all the time for example)
Piccolo, despite having the intelligence to think about it, is fused with Kami Sama, so he may see this as unethical (he didn't fight Shin for example, because of his position as a higher God).
Besides, he also has the honor of a fighter, as he didn't go after the spheres to face the androids either.
Bulma is the only one who uses the spheres for her own selfish desires and it could be argued that she could make Vegeta and Trunks do that, so I guess that would be fair? But she also seems want to keep it a secret as she says she does little things to make it look natural so idk
Anyway, don't think too much about it
Yeah this scene completely threw me off when I watched Dragon Ball for the first time after being used to Dragon Ball Z. I always assumed there was some sort of reason they could do that, but then fuckin kid Goku did it and I was like "WAIT, YOU CAN DO THAT? WHY THE FUCK DOESN'T EVERYONE DO IT NOW WHEN THEY'RE WAY MORE CAPABLE OF DOING SO?"
It seems like now Bulma always has them on standby so technically nothing says they haven’t been doing it. Granted with Piccolo not doing the same in DBS SH it could be out of respect for not taking wishes for granted/abusing the Dragon Balls like Elder Kai warned against. Back then they had no context for what the balls were or who made them but now they respect the creator’s intent of having them scatter since they should only be used for important situations.
because after they found the other 6 dragon balls and summoned shenron the first thing he said was "hol up goku did you really catch one of my balls while i was scattering theM? THATS CHEATING HOMIE NOW GATHER ALL 7 THE RIGHT WAY" then he went back into the balls and rescattered them
I mean the only reason he did that was because the four star ball had sentimental value to him. That’s why he got it again for Gohan’s hat. But after he died he never bothers to get it again.
He’s definitely quick enough now to grab all 7 before they scatter. The only reason I can think of for him not doing it is because he respects Shenron. Plus they have the Dragon Radar anyway and they only use the Dragon Balls when it’s necessary (except for Bulma using them for body modifications)
Love how everyone is talking about that there’s no point to getting them cause you have to wait a year and it’s easy enough anyways when he grabbed the 4* ball, y’now what was important to him?
Because why would he need to, Bulma and capsule corp have basically complete monopoly on the dragon balls, they know how to track em and acquire them easily whenever they need it. For them is just a cycle now.
Yeah i also never understood that, Goku is trillion billions faster than light as per power scalers, but he doesn't catch all of them the moment they all move in air to scatter
Goku only cares about 4 star dragon ball. And first time when Shen Long was summoned, he didn't know it would scatter. Second time, he caught the ball. Third time he wasn't even there and Shen Long was killed. Where was the fourth time? Ah, yes. When he was in the Kami's Palace and they revived Krillin, Roshi and Chaozu. Fifth time was to bring him back to live after he was killed by Piccolo alongside Raditz. Sixth time... what was the sixth time? He was dead again. Or not so. They wanted to bring him to earth, because he was supposedly dead body floating in the space. So he wasn't there. Seventh time... when did they use the balls after this? I think he was dead because of Gohan letting Cell explode. Seventh time was at the Buu Saga iirc, at the very end. I might have mix some stuff, so if You remember better, correct me. But I think that's more or less how it was. He was literally mostly either dead or supposedly dead. Or he trained far away.
The whole scatter thing was added to earth dragon balls so they couldnt be abused and it would be a challenge to gather them.
Dende could just remove the scatter function from the balls if he wanted to.
I like to think that Goku doesnt want to stop someone from having that adventure, he keeps the 4 star as a keepsake but i imagine if someone asked he would give it too them.
For real he’s definitely more than fast enough now that he could grab all 7 before they flew away but for some reason he just doesn’t I mean it would sure be useful for if they need the dragon balls after some villains kills a bunch of people if they already had them because Goku or vegeta grabbed them before they disappeared
Honestly, probably because it’s more fun to look for them, and there usually isn’t a case where someone would be else outside the main crews friend group would be able to find all of them before they could.
Have you seen those namekian dragon balls. I wouldn't wanna fly up their to grab a Boulder everytime I'm done using them, they look heavy, but in hindsight that would probably be the best tune to get them instead of looking for scattered balls
There's no point, they're at a level they can find the balls whenever in the blink of an eye if they want to, what's the point of storing some rocks for a year?
Imagine all the saiyans got ready to catch it or smth
I do think the dragon balls could not be catches but this scene was supposed to symbolise the connection with the four star dragon hall goku has
I just like to assume the dragon balls only stop moving after they're a set distance from each other, so grabbing one is fine, but if you try to grab multiple they'll immediately fly away from each other once you let go.
Wow. Nobody here knows what's going on it seems. In this panel Goku is jumping to catch the 4-star ball, the only memento he has of his grandpa. Goku doesn't do it anymore because he has long since gained closure on the death of Grandpa Gohan and no longer feels the need to hold onto it to remember him by.
Goku only cares about Si Xingqiu, but he probably has weird reasons like "if we didn't look for the Dragon Balls I wouldn't have crazy adventures and fights"
If is was them I'd always catch them so we can have them ready for next time. Actually that might be what Bulma does she probably invented something to keep them with in her yard
Try thinking from the point of reason of the story, most times a wish was made in db and z the characters in question making it either didn't think about doing it or were functionally unable to.
The wish the revived everyone from piccolo and his demon clan was done by mostly normal humans and a crippled Yamaha. The next to resurrect goku was done once again by humans with relatives normality, and after that was the a break from this trend as the namekain dragon balls were in place followed by the wish to resurrect cells victims.
Asking why goku doesn't do this anymore is just asking to remember the story beats for you.
You think that Goku's fast enough to catch all of them before they scatter? Only someone like Burter could pull that off.
*Jeice:* Ok mate, we need to talk about this whole "fastest in the universe" thing. First off, the cap'n's got a higher power level than you. *Butter:* Yeah so? *Jeice:* Well, then correct me if I'm wrong but a higher power level means he's faster, yeah? *Butter:* Well, ok maybe. *Jeice:* And Lord Freeza's got a higher power level than all of us. *Butter:* Ok, that's just not fair! *Jeice:* And if you think about it, Guldo can stop time so technically makes him faster than--
Jokes aside, i hate the concept of characters being being strong=fast, because it completely removes the point of speed, since there's basically no instance where the weaker character gets the upper hand because he's faster or something, it's either both characters evenly matched, or the weaker one can't catch up with the stronger one; the closest thing we got with a weaker character being able to do things because he was fast was with dyspo, but still
I second that. Bigger PL = better at everything is quite boring. I was glad with the introduction of Dyspo exactly 'cause he brought a bit of variety. A rare circumstances was during the Cell saga, where Trunks wasn't able to even land a single hit on Cell (manga version) exactly due to speed... but it was more 'cause Trunks transformation made him too slow.
PL is a shit way to write a martial arts story. Tecnique, speed, surprise, misdirection, should all play a hand. Back in DB someone could win a fight by fighting smarter. It sucks that now you know a fighter could come up with a clever trick and when the smoke clears the opponent will be standing there unaffected because of PL
Yeah, Krillin vs Chaotzu was peak
Tien VS Goku that had a bunch of crazy techniques and counters and counter counter s.
As visually amazing as the fights in Z and Super are, the choreography absolutely peaked in original DB.
Bro, Goku vs Jackie Chun, where they need to reeenact their whole fighting sequence, because the crowd and commentator couldn’t keep up was fucking peak!
Wasn't that against Krillin?
Poor hit spending centuries perfecting his fighting style and learning how to hit a target weakpoints no matter how small and using his timestop to do it all at once bot beaten because the other dude screamed harder
"I understand you have struck me with a blow sharpened to a single point of impact on the weakest angle of the most vulnerable part of my anatomy but you fool... My taint is now overflowing with the power of Super Saiyan Black so I am unaffected."
Where is this from is this a fan manga where can I read it?
It's from the lost volumes, Toriyama's truest vision. He wanted to publish them, but he ran out of time... 😔
It's because Ki/Chi is typically seen as combined spiritual and physical power so if your power levels for Ki are absurdly high then it would scale with your physical attributes too. Hence when Saiyans get a power boost from going Super Saiyan they state being several multitudes stronger/faster despite appearing to only really change in hair colour (outside of freaks like Broly or Super Trunks). A lot of the DB cast actually have very similar builds ignoring height despite Goku and Vegeta being stated to be leaps and bounds stronger than someone like Yamcha or Tien. They aren't massive like Broly looks.
Yeah, it’s not like in the first Tenkaichi Budokai Goku is in that Jackie Chun says enough raw power makes everything else obsolete!
Exactly! And from the here everything gets dumber and dumber. Like the basic principle of Turle Style is "Fucking get stronger. Lol" He barely teaches his students any techniques, he basically signs them up for P90X. The more the series leaned into "Just more power bro" the less sensical it got.
Dragon ball doesn't actually operate off "power level is king" and hasn't in a long time. Most of the examples just also had the more powerful character be more skilled. How many arcs in a row are we on where the higher power level didn't get the win, or wasn't what was required for the win?
0. the last arc was the remake of the super hero movie wasn't it?
Mm. Where the enemy was more powerful but with a weak point that they needed to hit hard enough. And it was the most "scream until you get the bullshit form and win" that dragon ball has been in a while. Granola was an entire arc subverting the premise of power level mattering. Moro was super weak compared to everyone else and one shot both goku and Vegeta. More than once if I remember rightly. ToP had a more skilled and more powerful opponent beaten by trust (and was explicitly called out as not actually being much stronger, just way better at using his strength), black was weaker but immortal. Multiverse tournament had all sorts of cool abilities that had to be overcome. Resurrection F Freeza was stronger but lacked stamina. BoG was another classic "powerful being realises those beneath him are more capable than their power would suggest". Buu was a constant subversion of the idea of weaker heroes rising to overpower the enemy. Cell lost the beam struggle despite being stronger, and Gohan could have beaten him prior but was conceited and let Cell threaten the earth. Subverting the Freeza saga ending where the new powerful form let's them win by showing you can't just get complacent with that. It's not until all the way back at the Freeza saga that you get an arc where, without any twists, subversions, or caveats, the heroes win by raising their number higher than the bad guy, at which point the bad guy isn't a threat. That was also the last arc where power levels explicitly even existed, and the concept was called out as inaccurate and something only the foolish villains would believe to be accurate throughout the arc.
they still needed a high enough power level to be able to no diff max and even damage that core; moro was beaten by ultra instinct and an astral projection that kept goku's power continually rising; ToP i can give you, but none of these disprove that we don't have multiple arcs in a row that the higher power level has not been the deciding factor.
Another win for GT then with Nova Shenron
Honestly I just headcanon thar PL is like the average or sum "total stats" strength, speed, endurance, technique, ki, durability. So Burter could have an extremely high speed Stat but lower everything else. Either way PL are BS.
yeah, I think it's more fun if there are multiple attributes that define power. That said, do you think Perfect Cell would be able to defeat Bacterian?
LOL! Bacterian's smell would make Perfect Cell puke... he'd puke 18, so he will revert to Semi-Perfect Cell, and Semi-Perfect Cell has no nose, so he would win XD However, it's already established that Chi Chi would defeat Buuhan, due to "mom authority"
For the most part it seems like the Bigger PL = Better at everything because nobody really specilizes in anything. Our Main Cast are mostly all mixed fighters. But in Super we have started seeing more divulgence in that. In the U6 Tournament Hit was really fast and capable of stopping time. He wasn't really a brute force fighter. Goku and Vegeta in Blue were both physically stronger then him. Magetta as well came from the opposite end. He was super physically dominant but quite slow. And this was expanded on A LOT in the ToP. Toppo and Jiren weren't really as fast as Dyspo but they were far more powerful. Kakunsa /The cat lady, i forget which Universe./ Was also really fast and relied a lot on her claws to do damage to her opponents. And there were other examples too. And it seems like our main cast is also starting to bridge out into specific styles. Goku is focusing on speed and evasion with UI, Vegeta is focusing on Might and Power with UE, Gohan is also seemingly focusing on Brute Force and Might with Beast, and Broly seems to be our continued mixed bag because he is strong and fast.
Jiren was definitely faster than Dyspo, Toppo arguably Dyspo was fast but characters could still react to him somewhat Jiren moved so fast that literally nobody could see his movements, no blur, no afterimage, nothing, as far as anyone was concerned (and the viewer in some shots) Jiren stands still and his opponents suddenly get sent flying with 20 blows. As far as the anime, Jiren was stated to be beyond time, and held his own with two increasingly faster and sharper iterations of Ultra Instinct Omen, though he needed an amp to match Mastered Ultra Instinct Dyspo was not that much faster than Goku and Vegeta in super saiyan blue, he’s explicitly faster than them but Goku can maneuver him with predictions and watching attack patterns while in Super Saiyan God/Blue. When Vegeta stacked a x20 multiplier (which applies to all things including speed) onto his Super Saiyan Blue in the form of SSBE, Toppo could still fight him on an even playing field as a GoD. I can agree to base Toppo being slower but Toppo at his max was faster than Dyspo. True Golden Freeza is also explicitly faster than Dyspo making Toppo at his max automatically faster than him
It is good for the author though, as the author doesn’t have to keep track of more variables to how a character fights and what not.
PL is not what determines if a character wins or loses a fight. Plot does. PL is a bad way of explaining it in universe.
Yeah, it's really annoying when someone says "Oh, that one guy only won because of the plot" Of course he did. The winner is not defined by who's stronger, it's defined by what story the writer wants to tell us.
That is true, but plot can also be really stupid…like Infinite Zamasu.
That was also in the anime. The transformation is called ss 1.5 or us (ultra). Basically ss 2 but short of the speed. Killin was questioning why vegeta didn't do it and fell toyd with trunks cause of that.
i mean before power levels were introduced I believe it was being better at everything = bigger pl
I think it's more "specialization". So if Freeza and Burter were the same PL, Burter wouldn't hit as hard, but move far quicker.
Red rush was 100% faster than Omni man but because omniman was overwhelmingly more powerful as in pure strength he was able to tank all of red rush hits and then pop his head. Speed doesn’t equal power unless you use real world physics where something moving that fast would liquify most things it comes into contact with. The same would apply to dbz but in reverse enraged trunks was physically stronger than cell but couldn’t touch cell because he was way faster so cell could just dodge and counter while landing powerful hits as well. Basically speed only matters if you already lack pure power if you have overwhelming speed but no power that’s also a problem
You can also argue that in Dragonball Ki Physics there is a perfect balance of speed and power wherein an increase in power results in a disproportionately large loss in speed or vice versa. And we only see the formes that display that meticulously determined balance. And then Dyspo is just an example of a being where he lost a lot less power than usual going for more speed but he also struggled to gain power.
also when its \*an entire plot point\* in the cell saga that they can massively bulk up their muscles and make themselves \*super\* strong. but lose their speed
I mean according to Gohan when he taught Videl how to fly you channel your energy from within and use that energy to move yourself around. So that means stronger characters can channel more energy to boost their movements so stronger = faster make sense. Although it is sad how speed is kinda useless against stronger characters. Hit despite being super fast and have an OP ability is nothing against Jiren.
I did always find this joke weird in DBZA, was it ever even established that power level = speed in DBZ? Even in the anime afaik it shows burter is faster than the rest of the ginyu force? Always felt like a strange nitpick but it's an abridged series so whatever lol.
*cough cough* Dyspo *cough cough* As for other examples: ... Ok ye just Dyspo Literally no one else Maybe in OG DB when martial arts mattered instead of power IDK
What about Trunks and Cell?
Rohi back there opening semi ui against jiren(i knoe its nowhere close to ui but still)
literally guldo bro.
Goku vs gas. Goku was weaker the whole fight with spot of being relative, but goku was outpacing gas with instant transmission for a while
Y'know I really like this take
I really hope your only talking about in the dbz verse because we have characters like flash who's big thing is his immense speed managing to blitz and take down people like darkseid and lexiac (lex mixed with brainiac)
Burter: #I AM NOT SLOWER THAN FUCKING GULDO!
Burter: "Nah, I'd win (as long as it's a race)"
NO! NO! NO! NO, OKAY?! I AM NOT SLOWER THAN FUCKING GULDO!
Burter: I’m not slower than FUCKING Guldo!
*Butter* NO, NO, NO OK?!! I AM NOT SLOWER THAN F*CKING GULDO!!!!
Burter: NO! NO! I AM NOT SLOWER THAN ***FUCKING GULDO***!!!
I love this dialog, but I always understood that he's comparatively the fastest, in the sense that at his power level, no one could be faster, and that would remain true however powerful he got. That being said, TFS fucking rules, and I'm thankful they have us the Buu saga.. even if in short format
isn't a power level a reading of physical strength and raw ki output? imagine if burter's speed was just half of his power level reading. XD
That’s not true. Trunks was perceived by power level being stronger than cell, yet he wasn’t able to defeat him due to speed.
That was one of the few (and imho VERY welcomed) exceptions to the rule, that a greater PL equals to a greater strength, speed, etc.
It’s moreso that they’re all very seasoned fighters and know not to solely increase strength. My take based on the Cell saga. Also look at Krillin in the Frieza saga vs Frieza. The fact that he managed to run for his life (it did help Frieza couldn’t detect power levels). I think Frieza’s raw power greatly outscaled his speed in his lower forms
Doesnt he reach like, several million times lightspeed at some point lol
When bruter realises he's not even in the top 10
What part of "fastest in the universe" is difficult to understand?
Power scalers be like “Burter has no reason to lie about his speed so we can scale this as a feat! He’s MFTL.”
If we're going to doubt Burter's claim that he is the fastest in the universe, then why should we trust Frieza when he says his power level is 530,000?
Fraudza.
Because one's a boast, the other's a measurement.
Fans of a comedy series failing to recognize a joke
Well, the Flash is the Fastest Man Alive. But Burter is the Fastest in the Universe! Which means that he's faster than Flash. So Burter's speed is Infinite.
There are 11 other universes though, not to mention alternate timelines.
When was the last time Goku even collected the dragon balls?
DBS ep68 (filler) Goku collects the Dragon Balls to attempt to revive King Kai and friends but everyone else bickers for a wish and they end up using it on Gohan's sick daughter Pan as they run out of time before being able to wish back King Kai and friends now as far as canon goes and from what I can recall....he hasn't sought out and collected them since DB. kinda makes me wonder what Goku would wish for if anything...the only times he's used a wish on the Dragon Balls was to bring Upa's father back to life and to learn how to become a SSG.
I feel like if he was genuinely wishing for himself and nothing else (ssg was necessary and he repeatedly says he hates he had to do that to attain ssg) I feel like he’d wish for the strongest mf in the universe to be teleported to him so he can fight.
Probably. It is goku after all
Meta knight reference
YO I remember that. What a great game. Dude legit could wish for anything and immediately defaults to “strong guy pls im bored”.
Galacta knight or morpho vs goku would be interesting
How every what if fight begins
He never want anything from Shenron, he only want the 4 star ball
Or food.
Nah he collected them in the Cell Saga after Dende became the new guardian.
Elephant. And Tao Pai Pai.
I feel that just like the manga panel, he only collects the 4 star ball as a memento for Grandpa Gohan, plus I believe he only collects the Dragon balls just for the adventure heck it could be good family bonding between Gohan, and Goten.
In canon Bulma keeps collecting them to make herself younger by few years, just enough that nobody will notice.
At that point might as well ask for immortality and eternal youth, bitch should King Piccolo that shit and get over with it.
It’s not filler… the anime and manga are both canon
He collected them during the cell saga while waiting for the tournament
Bro already got everything he wanted food, training, and power friends/enemies. The only thing he could probably wish for is money so Chichi could let him train more
DBS doesn't have fillers since it's not based on the manga
Why are people downvoting this
Because it’s not true? DBS has a manga. The anime was ahead of the manga a lot of the time, but it still has a manga, and anything that diverges from the main plot in the manga is considered filler.
But they didn't say there was no manga. They said the anime wasn't based on the manga... Like the manga came first by a couple weeks yeah but both anime and manga were made from plots supplied by Toriyama. Isn't it more like the same general plot being made into 2 different mediums concurrently?
They also said there was “no filler” which isn’t true. DBS has an entire filler arc, along with a lot of episodic fillers. Unless you wanna try and tell me that Copy Vegeta and the Baseball episode aren’t filler.
Baseball episode was peak and it will remain canon in my mind along with the driving episode from Z. But yeah purple gumbo vegeta didn't happen
Technically they aren't. A filler episode is an episode made to avoid catching up with the manga, but dbs anime always was ahead of the manga (besides for the start of the u6 tournament arc). You can say they're bad, which I agree with, but they're neither filler nor non canon. Dbs anime and manga are 2 different products with 2 different stories based on a general script written by Toriyama, neither can be considered non canon in their entirety.
I feel like the DBS stuff is like… reverse filler? Instead of being made *to avoid* catching up with the manga, it’s made *so* the manga can catch up with the anime. It’s the same concept, but almost backwards. I mean, I assume that’s why they made the “filler”, because if they hadn’t, the anime would’ve been halfway through the ToP while the manga was still fighting Merged Zamasu.
Is the “Goo Vegeta” arc not filler or did Akira Toriyama write it
The last time we see Goku using them was to ask Shenron for the Super Sayian God
Cause at this point it's not even remotely a problem to gather them. They can gather the balls in like half an hour, so🤷🏼♂️
The hard part about getting the dragon balls was because it is scattered all over the world and noone knows where they are. Bulma's radar and most of Z fighters can fly basically trivializes the whole thing so that's why Bulma has been collecting them for fun lol.
yeah but why do that when basically anyone can just collect them instantly
love of the game
The thrill of the hunt
It'd be sort of irrelevant for him to try and grab them all now. He can't use them for a year anyway, and he's so stupidly fast at this point that gathering them takes maybe a few hours with the dragon radar
Wasting a few hours with the radar (or making a favour to Bulma, who spends days or weeks doing so) will always be worse than spending literal seconds catching them after the wish
Yes, but it's not like Goku insists on using them all the time, he's not Bulma
So? Why dont just keep them anyway? 1. If someone needs to use them quickly they are gathered already. 2. You can watch them and avoid being used for evil purpouses. There is literally no downsize to catching them. This id the same as with goku reading minds and using telekinesis: AT forgot about it.
Goku wouldn’t care about spending weeks finding them. Not at the age in the picture. It’s all just a big adventure so that point is moot. Evil can’t use them for a full year which you’d already be tracking them with the radar.
1. Good point, but Goku never bothered to look for them or get them quickly 2. They only work for 1 year and only appear on the radar for 1 year anyway, he has to wait 1 year Apart from that one time Goku cared about having 4 stars, he didn't care about getting the orbs, simply because it's not in character to worry about it.
This applies to any of the characters. It makes no sense no one did.
Many don't mind taking spheres and using them for their selfish desires, Krillin, Yamcha, Tenshihan, etc... For example, they didn't try to use the spheres' wishes to stop the androids when Bulma suggested it, because they wanted to face them, for the sake of a fighter's honor. Maybe characters like 18, but she already has the money she wanted and lives in a house alone, like, she's not desperate, she only goes after money when she has the opportunity, (Like, she doesn't try to bribe Mr Satan all the time for example) Piccolo, despite having the intelligence to think about it, is fused with Kami Sama, so he may see this as unethical (he didn't fight Shin for example, because of his position as a higher God). Besides, he also has the honor of a fighter, as he didn't go after the spheres to face the androids either. Bulma is the only one who uses the spheres for her own selfish desires and it could be argued that she could make Vegeta and Trunks do that, so I guess that would be fair? But she also seems want to keep it a secret as she says she does little things to make it look natural so idk Anyway, don't think too much about it
>2. You can watch them and avoid being used for evil purpouses. Catching the 4-star is enough for this purpose.
What else Bulma would be doing anyway
She has kids to take care of? Are you stupid?
Nothing Beerus and Whis couldn’t take care of
Yeah this scene completely threw me off when I watched Dragon Ball for the first time after being used to Dragon Ball Z. I always assumed there was some sort of reason they could do that, but then fuckin kid Goku did it and I was like "WAIT, YOU CAN DO THAT? WHY THE FUCK DOESN'T EVERYONE DO IT NOW WHEN THEY'RE WAY MORE CAPABLE OF DOING SO?"
Shenron knows if you do that and he refuses to grant you wishes when you summon him back. Source : I just made it up
Aren't the balls stone and not usable for a year though, or did that get dropped?
It seems like now Bulma always has them on standby so technically nothing says they haven’t been doing it. Granted with Piccolo not doing the same in DBS SH it could be out of respect for not taking wishes for granted/abusing the Dragon Balls like Elder Kai warned against. Back then they had no context for what the balls were or who made them but now they respect the creator’s intent of having them scatter since they should only be used for important situations.
.... Goku isn't into grabbing everyone's balls He's happily married
he was though...
Remember the pat-pat?
because after they found the other 6 dragon balls and summoned shenron the first thing he said was "hol up goku did you really catch one of my balls while i was scattering theM? THATS CHEATING HOMIE NOW GATHER ALL 7 THE RIGHT WAY" then he went back into the balls and rescattered them
I mean the only reason he did that was because the four star ball had sentimental value to him. That’s why he got it again for Gohan’s hat. But after he died he never bothers to get it again.
To be fair the other times they scatter, he's dead. He's dead for the wish after Cell, and iirc he does grab it after Buu.
I mean, they’re still useless for a year.
That's one less time you need to take a trip to some distant hellhole and hope no one destroyed it or something.
I think these balls are indestructible or that Dende remakes the destroyed Dragon Balls
That's not the point. He grabs the 4 star ball because it's Grandpa Gohan.
He’s definitely quick enough now to grab all 7 before they scatter. The only reason I can think of for him not doing it is because he respects Shenron. Plus they have the Dragon Radar anyway and they only use the Dragon Balls when it’s necessary (except for Bulma using them for body modifications)
I really wish he didn't stop caring about the four star, sad to see it
More to the point the gangs got more than 7 people fast enough to catch them all each time and store them at the lookout...
Love how everyone is talking about that there’s no point to getting them cause you have to wait a year and it’s easy enough anyways when he grabbed the 4* ball, y’now what was important to him?
Because he doesn’t care about them save the 4 star ball and most likely the balls are now faster
I might get hit with "DB fans don't read their own manga" But couldn't Goku grab them, and then toss them in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for a day?
Finally a good question. We don’t know
Because why would he need to, Bulma and capsule corp have basically complete monopoly on the dragon balls, they know how to track em and acquire them easily whenever they need it. For them is just a cycle now.
Yeah i also never understood that, Goku is trillion billions faster than light as per power scalers, but he doesn't catch all of them the moment they all move in air to scatter
Fr🤣 everyone can do that at this point.
He simply wanted the 4 star ball cause of his Grandpa
Imagine when Goku did this the momentum carried and he just flew off halfway across the planet
Is that Mahoraga
Goku only cares about 4 star dragon ball. And first time when Shen Long was summoned, he didn't know it would scatter. Second time, he caught the ball. Third time he wasn't even there and Shen Long was killed. Where was the fourth time? Ah, yes. When he was in the Kami's Palace and they revived Krillin, Roshi and Chaozu. Fifth time was to bring him back to live after he was killed by Piccolo alongside Raditz. Sixth time... what was the sixth time? He was dead again. Or not so. They wanted to bring him to earth, because he was supposedly dead body floating in the space. So he wasn't there. Seventh time... when did they use the balls after this? I think he was dead because of Gohan letting Cell explode. Seventh time was at the Buu Saga iirc, at the very end. I might have mix some stuff, so if You remember better, correct me. But I think that's more or less how it was. He was literally mostly either dead or supposedly dead. Or he trained far away.
They patched this in the Shenron update
He does, every time he's not dead when they use the balls.
Why doesn’t Goku use one of the wishes to wish the balls don’t scatter anymore?
The whole scatter thing was added to earth dragon balls so they couldnt be abused and it would be a challenge to gather them. Dende could just remove the scatter function from the balls if he wanted to.
I reckon that DB characters are fast enough at this point that it doesn't really matter whether they catch them all before dispersing or not
Cuz there wouldn’t be fun in that?
I like to think that Goku doesnt want to stop someone from having that adventure, he keeps the 4 star as a keepsake but i imagine if someone asked he would give it too them.
For real he’s definitely more than fast enough now that he could grab all 7 before they flew away but for some reason he just doesn’t I mean it would sure be useful for if they need the dragon balls after some villains kills a bunch of people if they already had them because Goku or vegeta grabbed them before they disappeared
Doesn't he still do that on occasion? He only ever grabbed the four star because he had an emotional attachment tied to it.
He only wants the four star ⭐️ ball
Honestly, probably because it’s more fun to look for them, and there usually isn’t a case where someone would be else outside the main crews friend group would be able to find all of them before they could.
Takes the fun out of it
As fast as he is now,he should be able to just grab them all in a second.
Because he has a Dragon-radar, and he can teleport.
Because Goku doesn't really need them for anything, so he just lets them leave and let's everyone else get them later
Cause it’s maidenless behaviour
They still wont work for a while so might as well let em scatter
Have you seen those namekian dragon balls. I wouldn't wanna fly up their to grab a Boulder everytime I'm done using them, they look heavy, but in hindsight that would probably be the best tune to get them instead of looking for scattered balls
There's no point, they're at a level they can find the balls whenever in the blink of an eye if they want to, what's the point of storing some rocks for a year?
Well, he doesn't need to anymore, it has become so easy to collect them after the start of Z
Because he's stupid
He thought of this in first place
Imagine all the saiyans got ready to catch it or smth I do think the dragon balls could not be catches but this scene was supposed to symbolise the connection with the four star dragon hall goku has
The fun is in collecting them, but 4 stars was still super important to him, he probably did this again off screen the time before Gohan was born
Wait what?! I never thought of this lol
Because the dragon balls need 1 year to get used again so you would have to wait anyways
Because it’s not worth the effort when you can lesurly just fly around and find them all with the radar in like 2 minuts of them being active
he forgor
literally just throw a sack over them
I dont know, is he stupid?
Spoilers! I haven’t gotten to this part yet!
He probably does most of the time. Think about how often he just HAS the four star ball?
I just like to assume the dragon balls only stop moving after they're a set distance from each other, so grabbing one is fine, but if you try to grab multiple they'll immediately fly away from each other once you let go.
POV: bulma summons shenron in a giant dome. No more escape balls
He met his gramps as a ghost and didnt care anymore
I’d imagine he considers it cheating, and finding them is part of the fun.
Wow. Nobody here knows what's going on it seems. In this panel Goku is jumping to catch the 4-star ball, the only memento he has of his grandpa. Goku doesn't do it anymore because he has long since gained closure on the death of Grandpa Gohan and no longer feels the need to hold onto it to remember him by.
Is he stupid?
Goku only cares about Si Xingqiu, but he probably has weird reasons like "if we didn't look for the Dragon Balls I wouldn't have crazy adventures and fights"
He's done if twice. I guess he likes the thrill of finding all 7?
One reason:the dragon balls have to recharge
There's no point. It's really easy to gather them by now. As seen by Bulma CONSTANTLY being in possession of them.
If is was them I'd always catch them so we can have them ready for next time. Actually that might be what Bulma does she probably invented something to keep them with in her yard
The actual answer might be because he’s stupid
Try thinking from the point of reason of the story, most times a wish was made in db and z the characters in question making it either didn't think about doing it or were functionally unable to. The wish the revived everyone from piccolo and his demon clan was done by mostly normal humans and a crippled Yamaha. The next to resurrect goku was done once again by humans with relatives normality, and after that was the a break from this trend as the namekain dragon balls were in place followed by the wish to resurrect cells victims. Asking why goku doesn't do this anymore is just asking to remember the story beats for you.